This is my rough summary translation of a gripping live debate show in Russia on NTV called "Last Word" hosted by Pavel Selin. It's a popular show, and it shows that not everything about Russian TV is completely crushed by the Kremlin. (I realize it may all be contrived or allowed by the political leadership for the wrong motivations, but even so, some of the honesty comes through.)
Russian TV was very active in the campaign period showing the Belarusian opposition, and even running a multi-part series called "The Godfather" which was very critical of Lukashenka. ("Bat'ka" is the term people use to describe Lukashenka, it means literally "father" or "head" but since it's slang and often perjorative I will use the term "big daddy").
The show is one of those exhausting Russian crossfire debate shows unlike anything on European or even American television -- people not only drown each other out, they have knock-down shouting matches waving their hands and throwing fits. You might call this "Family Feud" and shut it off, as it at first seems very crazy, but in fact, it contains some very, very interesting stuff that helps you understand a lot not only about Belarus, but Russia, there are some very fine moments, it is a very emotionally gripping show, so watch it if you speak Russian. I don't think it would be easy to make a transcript, there is so much cross-talk and shouting and slang, but anyone who has the time might try.
Some highlights:
o The audience clapping for some people and not others is one of the oddities of the show (for the foreigner). Why do some pro-Belarusian government statements get applause? Why do some anti-government statements get wild clapping? Is it because these are different people in the audience? Or do they clap because they merely feel a good argument is made? or are they that easily swayed? They clap for Prokhanov, an odious right-wing figure known for his xenophobic and nationalist outbursts; but they clap for Khalezin, a Belarusian theater director who tells Russians they support this dictator only because it's economically profitable for them (so perhaps the audience claps because it feels no shame?)
o Lukashenka's representative seems right out of central casting. Aptly named Zimovsky (from "zima," or "winter") he has the white hair and ominscient smirk of Julian Assange. He is beamed in with perfect state-of-the-art fidelity to the audience in Moscow as if he is there -- Lukashenka declined to show, and as somebody in the group quipped, he won't appear on NTV until he is forced into exile in Moscow. He turns in a completely chilling performance, smiling like a villain when asked what he thought of Irina Khalip, a journalist, being dragged from a car and beaten, screaming on the phone and trying to report the scene until police seize the phone, and saying it was "good" because "at last a journalist was speaking about what she actually sees". He uses the term "journalism's cannon fodder" to describe the reporters who came to the square during the demonstration and got beaten.
o the video clips of the demonstrations are moving; there is Rymashevski, a candidate with his head bound from having been beaten by riot police, calling on the demonstrators not to give into a provocation, to behave peacefully; there is an old man crying to the riot police, "Don't beat your sons and grandsons!" (or "Don't fear your sons and grandsons! -- I can't quite hear). There is the scenes of the vandals breaking the windows -- and statements that they are provocateurs.
o Matvei Ganapolsky, a Russian journalist, asks the question that really any liberal should be asking, regardless of whether they are a RealPolit sort of politician, or a cynical journalist who believes the Belarusian opposition is "paid for" and "disunited". He says that in fact, Lukashenka likely actually won. That even with fraud, the gap in numbers is too big. That he probably really does have that support. So given that he really had this victory, why the beatings? Why have riot police doing things like pulling the journalist Khalip out of the car? Why pushing Russian journalists face down in the snow? If it's such a victory, why do this?
o Leonid Margolin follows suit: Real victors don't need to take hostages, that's a sign of weakness.
o Natalya Kolyada is really the star of the show. While the Russian male liberals, as well as they speak, aren't very strong in standing up to their own rightwing blowhards like Prokhanov and Mitrofonov (whose dyed black artifical pompadour is one of the fascinations of the show, a kind of counterpoint to Zimovsky's dreadful shock of white), and while some of the Belarusians seem to be somewhat intimidated on this show by all the shouting, Kolyada stands right up, interrupting when there is such bad faith in the speaker that it must be interrupted, and making very strong statements. The representative of the Union state (apparently the infamous Pal Palych Borodin is still heading it) is disgraceful -- he implies that there's something cowardly about Khalezin remaining on the square when his wife was carted off to jail -- Khalezin also makes some of the most dramatic lines in the show -- when Zimovsky starts describing Lukashevsky as a "bogatyr" (a legendary hero of the Russian folk tales), Khalezin says, "Hey, give me 10,000 riot police and I'll show you what a hero is, and you'll be left spinning". Prokhanov retorts something that sounds like "Hey, I'll give you $10,000, which is what you people take," -- somebody might help decipher that part but that's the gist.
Here's my summary, put any corrections in the comments.
o Selin begins by explaining he is not objective, he served some years ago as an NTV correspondent in Minsk, and was deported on orders from Lukashenka, but found many very decent people in Belarus; those people were on the square and now threatened with 15 years of jail; 17 people face serious charges now of up to 15 years; 6 of them candidates; 600-700 people are under arrest; this is not just a neighbour, our partner, a country with which we build political and military union, our brothers
[Video Clips of the scenes on October Square and then Independence Square]
o Police shout: turn off the camera! Marchers chanting, "Leave, leave!" to Lukashenka, shouting Riot police beating, clubbing, marching with shields
"No mercy for anyone" says Lukashenka on TV
o his rivals say count was fraudulent , they went to gather at October Square, but found a big Christmas tree and ice skating rink poured making them slip, so they went further to Independence Square
o Scenes of Vladimir Neklayev beaten unconscious, blank grenades going off -- Sannikov also beaten and lying on the ground, then journalists at 9 pm went to Government House, authorities turned up balaleika music on loudspeakers to try to drown out opposition speeches, Rymashevski with his head bound up in bandages speaking, he is head of Christian Democrats
o mobile service turned off about this time in the district
o a group began to break windows --riot police didn't do anything to stop then, then about 9:30 electricity turned off so that lights in the square went off, and in fact turned off Central Electoral Commission computers as well by turning off electricity in this district
o Old man shouts to the riot police: "You are beating your sons and grandsons!"
o beating police scenes, then Lukashenka on TV, speaking, "our law-enforcers, they stood firmly and acted within the bounds of the law"
o 6 of 9 candidates remain in jail, journalists, independent press, more than 600 others, relatives don't know their status
o Anton Vernitsky, 1st Channel TV in Russia, gives account: Neklayev said he was going to October Square but that's where rink was. It seemed to be a very planned special op, waited until Neklayev was in a very visible and very bright spot, blocked his car, people began to rock the car, then we hear explosions, a van with people in black outfits jump out, very methodically scattered grenades, and shout "put your mugs down in the snow", i.e. lie face down, a special ops guy then methodically picked up all those grenades, then riot police began to beat camera man , journalists haven't beaten like this ever, first time so many suffered
o RENT-TV, Dmitry Tarkov, riot police profesionally worked to beat and destroy cameras
o Aleksandr Prokhanov -- all this sobbing and weeping from you journalists! And here's a brilliant victory from Lukashenka, and if he hadn't acted, otherwise it would be an overthrow of the state, bloodshed was threatened, he had to act, you were trying to set it up to say, Europe look at all this! o Other people crying from the TV group -- you weren't there.
o Khalezin: You say Lukashenka is a hero? Give me 10,000 riot police, I'll show you what a hero is!
o Prokhanov I'll give you $10,000 dollars, you are provocateurs
o Tatyana Korotkevich The GAI (traffic police), the OMON (riot police) put on a planned, special operation
o Mitrofanov -- they had to, they had to have a suppression of an Orange Revolution
o Korotkevich, we were exercising our Constitutional right
o Selin, now we will hear from the head of Belarusian TV and Radio and a blogger, the "voice of Belarusian power" Aleksandr Zimovsky. Lukashenka himself wouldn't appear, either live or broadcast.
o Kolyada -- he's afraid -- when he asks for political asylum then you'll get him
o Zimovsky What happened was an attempt at a rebellion with the intent to seize power by these ex-candidates
o Kolyada: not ex candidates, but candidates, with immunity!
o Zimovsky when they break windows, they lose immunity
o Selin -- why are all the top opposition leaders arrested?
Video Clip
o Nikolai Statkevich speaking, and narration saying there was free gathering of signatures, even Lukashenka said some of his rivals are sensible and sane, but he refused to appear on TV debates, there were free rallies, which is usually not the case
But..."Some speak, some quietly count the votes" [a reference to Stalin's statement about how it doesn't matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes].
o Selin says to Zimovsky, isn't this a situation like a schoolyard bully when adults finally say stop it, but then they began to irritate the bully and he strikes back.
o Zimovsky -- who are those adults then? You insultingly call this a schoolyard situation
o Selin -- it was a rebellion that Lukashenka had to suffer the electoral campaign, "Time to Change the Bald Tire" was one of the slogans, referring to this bald leader.
o Mitrofonov "that was offensive"
o Prokhanov: it was a complete affront (polnaya podstava)
o Selin: isn't this just revenge?
o Zimovsky: He doesn't do revenge, I've known him for 16 years
o Kolyada: that's a fantasy!
o Khalezin: everybody in the elections is either in jail or fleeing
o Zimovsky -- this is a Union, this is a country of partners, when you cry about what is on the square you forget they're paid money for that, they are journalism's cannon-fodder journalists -- this is their job
o Olga Alyonova of Russia's business daily Kommersant -- let's not point fingers at who gets money, eh? People went with peaceful intents, families, no weapons, only those burning sparklers, these were Russian soccer fans who came to see what they could stir up, when the windows were broken, people on the square didn't even know this was happening, because Rymashevski was saying "don't fall prey to provocation, we've come with peaceful intentions"
Video Clip
Selin introduces, now we shall see Irina Khalip, "cannon fodder" as you say, but she is a correspondent for Novaya Gazeta, Ekho Moskvy.
Khalip's voice on the telephone to editors in Moscow: Here are the special forces, the riot police , OMON, came to disperse and beat people, Sannikov was severely beaten, we have been stopped by GAI traffic police, we are being pushed over to the side.
[She begins to shout and her voice rises]." "What are you doing?!" I'm being dragged, I've being squeezed over, you monsters, bastards!...They are beating me in the face, twisting my arms! -- and her voice, shouting, is cut off.
o Zimovsky: I liked that report, I really liked it. One of those rare times when a journalist said what they see.
o Selin, so you think "That's what they should get"
o [someone in the TV group] But she is in the KGB prison now, and she has a 3-year-old boy!
o Khalezin -- Vernitsky from 1st channel was beaten -- for the fact he was Russian, and on Belarusian TV they were pushing anti-Russian sentiments
o Matvei Ganapolsky -- this man [Zimovsky] justifies everything, he can't show any pity that a woman was dragged out of a car, that she was beaten. I wish him well working for Belarus, but women should not be touched. There is such a thing as a journalist's community, it is very consolidated. If you were are going to say "journalism's cannon fodder of journalism" one more time, then the journalists are going to rip your mouth, because your Lukashenka is known, only thanks to journalists who cover him
o Zimovsky I found that saying in the Russian journal "Expert"
o Selin Your former comrades were forced to leave.Don't you fear that?
o Zimovsky -- no I don't.
o Kolyada - he's prepared to kiss ass to the end
o Prokhanov, creating image of enemy, TV technology is trying to show Russian viewer that
o Lukashenka is an enemy, instead of showing his victory, is showing these bloodied faces and beatings, it's your assignment
o Selin -- I don't like like bloody heads on TV
o Leonid Gozman [Right Cause co-chairman] I'm proud that the Belarusian opposition invited me to come. The cowd was exceptionally quiet, not drunk, not aggressive, not armed, leaders called for calm; I was 6 meters from the door as they were trying to break it down at the Government House, I was with the United Civic Party representatives
o Prokhanov So, did you break the windows? Where Gozman shows up, they break
windows.
o Gozman: relax, if you have finished your aria, I'll go on. Those breaking the door were not stopped by OMON, 40 camera men came up to film the scene, they weren't stopped by police.
Belarusian opposition groups can't identity those people as among their groups.
o Selin So are you saying they were provocateurs?
o Gozman I think they were provocateurs
o Kolyada Without a doubt, they were
o Gozman: OMON attacked them not when people started breaking windows, but when the leaders
called on people to disperse and remain calm they were beaten NOT to defend the building
o Khalezin -- some of those people, with headphones on, were talking it's pretty elementary
o Dmitry Novikov [observer of elections from Russian parliament] organized well, 90 percent turnout, 80 percent voted for Lukashenka
o Kolyada "what 80 percent are you talking about?!"
o Gozman -- we know how you got United Russia elected here in Rusia!
o Novikov -- OSCE had a bunch of critics, things were changed to satisfy them, nine candidates
were able to be nominated, instead of one, to be weaker, so they had these campaigns to serve
other purposes, so they played the role of provocateurs themselves
o Kolyada You and I were on different squares
o Mitrofonov You say it was unfair, there are doubts, but could you tell me a politician in Belarus who has a higher rating? even if he is on TV, I asked this question even to the other candidates, and they were mumbling but but but...
o Khalezin -- in the second round, ANY of them would have beaten Lukashenka
o Mitronov -- they had 40 percent? then it's clear
o Natalya Rymashevskaya [wife of candidate] We gathered signatures, people came out, a moment of liberalization, "anybody but him", nobody came to those pickets for Luka, Vitaly Rymashevsky spoke as they were breaking the windows, from the Belarusian Christian Democrats, they formed a group of volunteers to try to get the provocateurs away from the building, and got beaten, and he said from the podium on the loudspeaker, "don't fall for a provocation, this is peaceful"
I don't know what condition Pavel Severinets is in, he's in KGB prison, we are hoping they aren't using drugs or physical or psychological pressure
o Matvei Ganapolsky -- What is strange is that here, we have the victory of Lukashenka, which is indisputable, whatever you say, even if there was fraud, it is too big a gap between the results. But what doesn't fit is that victory, and then the dragging of a woman journalist out of a car, the pushing of the journalist Vernitsky face-down in the snow, so it doesn't jive, this victory, and this congratulation from Medvedev and then this grinning from the Belarusian TV and Radio head, let's divide up the meat cutlets and the flies here, Zimovsky, you are an experienced politician, you're in this business 16 years, you're a clever fox, you play with Russia, you suck at two tits, you've beaten everyone, you want to be civilized? Then be civilized
o Mitronofov starts up clapping. Tere's the truth
o Selin -- it's a process, not an end. This reminds me of the time Putin invited the oligarch Prokhorov, there was some dispute, and he said "Do you need this"? So I ask you, this beating of Khalip -- Do you need that? Candidates, beaten, correspondents, beaten -- Do you really need this?
o Lev Margolin [campaign manager o Yaroslav Romanchuk, United Civic Party] "Victors don't take hostages. Only the weak man takes hostages, who feel unsure of his victory. The people sitting in the KGB prison isolation cells now are hostages of Lukashenka.
o Mitronov They didn't want to take hostages, but they were pushed.
o Selin -- did you see how they were beaten? Lukashenka said if they were beaten, they deserved
it.
o Mitrofonov -- But there isn't a single corpse!
o Selin, introduces Ivan Makashok, the representative of Pal Palych Borodin, of the Union State
o Makashok You have a president to be proud of.
o Kolyada - You like him? Take him! if you don't like your two-headed one! His nerves failed, after 16 years, when he has to beat people
o Makashok He let people come out on the square
o Kolyada But that is our lawful right, not the goodness of his heart. Hey, you try to do that here in
Russia! What are you saying. Dual citizenship is not allowed
o Makushok: We saved you in 1942.
o Khalezin - I couldn't hang on to Natasha's hand, we were separated, it was hard to see
o Makushok so you didn't worry about your wife, so you didn't start to look for her, you stayed on the square
o Kolyada, he knew where I was, I called him, I have never heard such swearing from police in all my life
o Khalezin to Makushok You are always saying you hate journalists, etc. how do you retain your position and your tie? I love my wife, I don't know if you love yours, but I have to doubt judging from your statements, because you're always saying such awful things, to your Russians, hating journalists
o Kolyada We were in a van for 3.5 hours, we banged on the doors, then put in a jail, 4 floors,
hundreds of people, face to the wall, hands behind the back, not allowed to sleep or given food for
24 hours, OMON began to film them to see what they were doing on square, told them to put on their coats so they could be recognized from the video being made, had them talk, give their name and address and talk so they could be identified from videos of the demonstration, then fingerprinted
[Video Clip of press conference with Lukashenka]
o Man asking question: will Neklayev be kept in jail?
o Aleksandr Lukashenka -- They will be kept in jail lawfully. For this, we have an investigator and a
judge. Appeal to them. I don't put people in jail. [applause] My only right is to pardon them.
o Makashok -- The opposition wanted this, they wanted to wind up in jail, so they would be beaten,
unhappy
o Mitronov, 10 times we've had colour revolutions, and they were successful, in Georgia, Ukraine,
etc.
o Selin -- wait, you're going to tell me that? How many times has the Belarusian opposition had their face put in the snow?
o Rymashevskaya -- Elections, it's the only ONLY way any alternative point of view can get heard,
because those elections back in 1994 were unlawful, we sought invalidation of those elections, and new ones
o Selin So as for our union ally, our protector against NATO?
o Prokhanov -- Lukashenka is a leader who holds his little country in perfect order. The fields are
sown. The villages are filled with people. The museums are filled with exhibits.
o [Voices from the TV group] It's a Potemkin village
o Prokhanov -- He has preserved his country from oligarchs, he has no Chubais or Abramovich, he
has achieved a civic victory, he has prevented his country from going into bloodshed
[Video Clip]
o Gennady Zyugonov [of Communist Party of Russia] We have to congratulate Lukashenka. I've spoken to the leadership about the scuffle. I was told that they had to prevent the same things we've seen in Moldova, Kyrgyzstan, Serbia, Georgia, there are specialists who go and do those scenarios, first the AP claiming there are 40,000 people, people arrested, it's a CIA operation, it's not about elections or respect of a neighbour
o Vladimir Zhirinovsky [notorious vice chair of Liberal Democratic Party of Russia, a rightwing party] Lukashenka knows what awaits him is the fate of Ceaucescu, like Marcos, he won't leave until death, so this isn't a country, it's not democracy, it's a territory, a head of a partisan movement who gives people potatoes, he will annihilate or spit on everybody, but then there's the great Belarusian people, our economy will work, we are partners, so they are poor, they are clean, the roads aer good, they have cheap food
o Kolyada, yes, Belarus has always been clean and had good roads, but people only get $200 a month, they are worse than poor, how people live in that country! for what is happening there [applause] -- but you have to demand that Europe declares sanctions, so this European Union wakes up, they must stop this game, endlessly selling political prisoners for billions, that will continue if EU doesn't wake up, it's no surprise that Russia sold them out, they aren't notable for human rights, they have their geopolitical interests
o Zimovsky So you want NATO to invade?
o Kolyada That would be great
o Zimovsky -- So you need an occupation
o Kolyada -- We need to liberate the country, my friends are seized and beaten, people understood for the first time that they had leaders, 90 percent of the people there had not come before
o Severin introduces Andrei Suzdaltsev [deputy rector of the World Economc and World Politics Faculty of Higher Economic School , economist] and asks asks how much aid Belarus gets from Russia -- how much in 16 years
o Suzdaltsev -- $5 billion; summarily, it's $57 billion then; $7 billion for next year"
o Selin -- Is it true Lukashenka has $9 billion in personal funds?
o Suzdaltsev -- He has about $4.5 billion in the presidential fund, we began counting in 1997, we noticed a difference, first, he got money from gas, then his family was in the oil business
o Mitrofonov -- That can't be, that's money he has to keep when he is blockaded to feed his people
o Suzdaltsev -- I agree, Mitrofonov is right, he bought oil from Chavez, paying cash, counted it all night, and it was flown in the morning, all in cash.
o Selin -- To wrap up, Can we trust Lukashenka?
o Dmitry Tarkhov, NTV -- "Trust but verify" -- that was an unpopular American president's saying but it is apt here
o Suzdaltsev -- no
o Mitronov -- Russia will say yes.
o Vernitsky - Lukashenka has created a very well-functioning riot police - we are forced to trust
him
o Kolyada -- No, never, and he has shown that again and again, and Russia likes it, does it, when it is put in a certain pose and has its way with her?
o Khalezin -- No, you can't trust him, my friends are in prison, you [Russians] can go on trusting him, it's economically beneficial to you [applause]
o Selin -- so Ganapolsky, is Lukashenka a bastard, but our bastard?
o Ganapolsky, I would ask the Russian authorities to use all their efforts to get the situation regulated, and to get the people who are blockaded or are in prison to be released, that is my answer to your question, the faster he regulates this, the more he can be questioned. And...whose bastard is he? That's not my expression, yours.
o Selin -- That's an American expression about Somoza
o Gozman -- We should support not the Belarusian dictator, but the Belarusian people, people guilty only of the fact that they irritated Lukashenka
o Tatayana Korotkevich -- You can't trust Lukashenka, but you can trust the people who voted against him
o Prokhanov -- Lukashenka is among the most brilliant and strong leaders of modern Europe, he has the collossal support of his people as the elections show, and has the love of the Russian people
o Selin -- I want to remind you that it is only 80 percent.
o Prokhanov -- the enemies of Lukashenka sit among the NATO staff, the Belarusian opposition, and the Russian liberals
o Dmitry Novikov -- If that opposition comes to power that wouldn't let Prokhanov speak, wouldn't like Makashok speak here, and are interrupting me even now, if those people come to power I'd be terrified for Belarus, so Lukashenka has to defend the Belarusian people
o Ivan Makushok, editor of Union State -- Lukashenka has said, "You can not love me and call me a dictator, but the main thing, love Belarus, and don't degrade it."
o Selin shows a vanka vstanka, oneo f those little Russian toys you can't knock over
I bought this once in a market in Minsk -- it's insult of the president -- no longer to be found in Minsk, but in Moscow, yes
o Selin: summary -- we can't demonstrate here or there, we get 15 days. Electoral commissions prevent authentic elections. Belarus is a polygon to test out what is going to happen in Russia. So that's what we have to learn. The roads there are indeed good...
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