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11/19/2007

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Ann Otoole

so now there are "good citizens" eh? guess i'm not a "good citizen" and neither is 99.9999999999% of secondlife. i think more publicity needs to be given to this "good citizen" thing. what will the vast majority of sl think when they find out they are not "good citizens"?

must we all be white with a shaved head and a nazi tattoo to be a good citizen?

Cocoanut Koala

What is this "good citizen" thing?

Do you mean some people have been assigned to be "good citizens" and close anything they want on Jira?

coco

Prokofy Neva

I think in their hot-house little world, they imagine that any one who obsessively cleans up the JIRA is a "good citizen". And anyone who challenges the will of the "good citizens" is a "bad citizen". It's awful. Such a perversion of a good concept.

Harleen Gretzky

When did Soft ever say there were bots "that searches for anything set to sale to buy it below market"? To me, she said she would prefer bots to search the SL search database instead of parcels like Grid Shephard did.
And she does live inworld, she was/is Soft Noel before she was Soft Linden.

Prokofy Neva

I don't care if she's Soft Icecream.

She sure did say there were bots searching for objects for sale. What would be the reason to search for objects for sale unless they were a) $0 price or b) below market.

And she can't prove this is the case anyway. Where are these bots that search for items for sale?!

The Sheep used to have Grid Shepherd that did this the way the Linden search did it with the exact same bug. They fixed it. And they mitigated it under community pressure.

Her point was that if you didn't give bots their head, and enable everything to show up for sale everywhere, they'd search third-party sites. I never heard a more retarded argument. Destructive, and retarded.

Now I understand why Soft was so zealous and landed hard on both feet with this, bustling around to edit the word in the proposal (rolls eyes) although the word I chose is perfectly fine and certain conveys the issue far more strongly (for a mechanism that would do this), and her demands for lists of miscreants arbitrarily closing issues -- asif they don't exist and she doesn't believe it -- lets us know who's side she's on.

I tell you, these Lindens who have been residents in the past always have axes to grind and they can be far worse than the Lindens without a past who never come inworld.

Harleen Gretzky

You search for for sale items so you can list them in a database, how would a bot know that they are below market anyway? Grid Shepherd proves it can be done. Her point was that if LL does not pre-populate their database, bots will populate third-party databases, not search them, because SL's database would be inadequate.

Prokofy Neva

Why should bots be searching for sale items to list in a database? Only if they wish to exploit the citizens of Second Life.

We don't need to encourage the population of any database, third-party or Linden, by bots or by automatic processes. We need to have the users in charge. A website or a blog isn't search until you press PUBLISH. The people of Second Life aren't getting the option to press PUBLISH.

I simply don't buy Soft's argumentation, which is specious. It's like saying, let's give addicts clean needles and distribute Chlorox to stop AIDS, but then never attempting to stop drug-trafficking or drug addiction in any other way. It's one of those "harm reduction" ideologies, something like "let's let ageplayers act out in SL so they don't in RL".

Second Life is a complex social space and over-automization causes more problems than it solves.

Again, please indicate what bots there are now that are putting items for sale with this bugginess in a dbase -- the Sheep one is no longer doing it. It's not as if there are that many searc pages.

Most search pages have social tagging, and opt-in. You get a cube and decide to activate it yourself or you add to a webpage yourself.

Harleen Gretzky

You create the database so people can search for things they want to buy, if I want a pair of black boots I can search for them. The same reason ESC did it. The reason most use inworld objects and other methods to populate is because it is a lot easier than creating a bot to do it. I do not necessary buy Soft's argument either, just pointing out what it is. I have never researched the bots that exist so have no idea what is out there.

Prokofy Neva

What's actually sickly fascinating about this transcript -- and Coco pointed it out to me too -- is the cringing way in which people talk about me behind my back.

Instead of talking normally, like, "This point of Prokofy's was valid, I support it for these reasons" or "This point of Prokofy's argument is weak, here's why" -- in some normal, common-sense way, they both infantalize themselves and project some ogre-like nature on me, saying, oh, Prokofy might not like this, oh, Prokofy might not close this, oh, Prokofy should be allowed to close this blah blah blah.

It lets me know how they think. It shows their awful inner life projected. They live in fear like this of everything, they are terribly insecure, and that's the basis for their big BDSM and authoritarian posture, it helps them feel less insecure. They are cowards.

There's nothing I've said that isn't *rational* and reasonably argued. For example, if I call a proposal, "JIRAs cannot be closed without author's consent," it's a statement about how a mechanism should be set it up. Soft Linden changes it to "JIRAs shouldn't be closed" as if to say, oh, let me SOFTEN this a bit -- which is her only motivation -- and then rationalizing that a person making a proposal must cast it in the subjunctive, never imagining that it will be in the imperative, and implemented.

It's a terrible insight into the unfree world they live in.

Thraxis Epsilon

As for other bots crawling the grid: http://webi.slbrowser.com:8080/webadapter/results.jsp?query=Ravenglass

Have fun.

As for how people discuss you behind your back. It's no worse then how you spit venom about people on your blog. Behind many many peoples back as well, as not everyone knows about, or reads your blog.

As for your constant denigration of anyone with a technical knowledge greater then yours. It gets old. We do belong to communities, and in those communities we are in contact and discuss things with people who have both technical and non-technical backgrounds. We also as keep a loose contact with each other and can compare or ask for objective testing of specific issues. We don't look for recognition, we don't tell others how to think. But we do work to make SL a better place.

And what have you done for SL in the last two years? What great good have you brought about? In all your bitching and moaning your venom filled posts, your hysterical rants?

You got yourself in the papers.
You made yourself a target for griefers.
And you've made some money renting land.

And what have we, the horrible horrible people that we are... the "TECHIES" (you really must put it in all caps or bold... that's how evil we are)

We've produced countless bug reproductions.
We've produced patches for several critical issues that the community clamored for
We've helped make the client more stable (*salutes Nicholaz*)
We've suggested new features to make SL better.

Prokofy Neva

I don't care if people discuss me behind my back. I find it humorous how much they project themselves in doing so, as I indicated.

You are a frequent-flyer contrarian on this blog, and I remember you all to well. You are one of the botherations on the JIRA, too.

I sure do denigrate people with techical knowledge *that use it to try to exercise arbitrary power over other people with impunity*. That's what it's about. It's not about "technical knowledge". There are many people with technical knowledge who are kind, reasonable, and good, and use logic and persuasion, not cynicism, insolence, and hate to explain their technology.

You're not one of those people. Neither are these so-called "good citizens" of the JIRA.

You aren't making Second Life a better place. You are sinking it into a black hole that it may never emerge from, and it could pull us all down. That's why I fight it.

This idea that you are all 'special' and on this special network where you're the smart ones and you're surrounded by idiots is fatal. Absolutely fatal.

Unlike you, I don't have to recite my accomplishments because they stand on their own and speak for themselves. To cite but one tiny example: many people paying $195 and not $295 for their islands all this year have me to thank for this : )

Your bugs are obscure and stupid -- not a single one that we can see have really benefited our real Second Lifes. You are phonies, and I mean that seriously, and I mean that in the worst possible way.

Nicholaz, God bless him, made a better viewer. I don't know if he even claims he made the Lindens' client more stable.

The new features you suggested are tekkie geeky inanities often, with no bearing on the real lives of most people in Second Life.

Seriously, you need the most forceful, most major challenge that I could ever give you, and I'm here to give it to you, if no one else will.

Khamon

"you all have no clue how much junk we close every day" -Gigs Taggart

Desmond Shang

>>Unlike you, I don't have to recite my accomplishments because they stand on their own and speak for themselves. To cite but one tiny example: many people paying $195 and not $295 for their islands all this year have me to thank for this : )

* * * * *

What did you do?

I'm not asking that in a challenging way; I just want to know why you say this.

I've been rather privately involved in civil feedback myself on this issue for a long time, and I know that I am by far not the only one, especially in number of sims.

I won't drag some other land baron names into it (they will speak for themselves if they choose) but I suspect we've all been very much on the same page.

Ciaran Laval

"you all have no clue how much junk we close every day" -Gigs Taggart

Great way to completely undermine the Jira process right there.

Prokofy Neva

http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2006/10/ll_confirms_pri.html

http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2006/10/sticker_shock.html

By breaking this story on the scandal of the Lindens letting their pets have a crack at the $195 price before they hiked it, I helped publicize this issue widely so that the Lindens relented and gave 30 days for purchases of the cheaper islands that would preserve that rate. Many, many more people bought them than would have, if they had only been open as a special deal for the dev list for a short period. The Lindens had to lay on many more islands at that price than they would have liked to sell at that price.

Desmond Shang

Ah, fair enough.

Indeed, many of us knew via contacts, but by and large I'd say that's a compelling argument.

Prokofy Neva

There isn't any "many of us" Desmond. There are people on the insiders dev list, the Glenn Linden list. It's not a number of more than a few hundreds.

WarKirby Magojiro

Ironically, the magic of Google alerts has found this blog entry for me.

Closing junk does not undermine jira. The junk being cleaned allows proper issues to actually be seen. Junk is support requests, duplicates, impossible issues. things that are not actionable.

Prokofy Neva

I don't know what is "ironic" about the "magic of Google alerts," because news and information are good things to scoop up and find on Google. People's privacy, their objects, their private properties in a world are NOT a good thing to Googlize and destroy.

Closing junk undermines liberal democracy because you have one idea of what is "junk" but many other people have quite another. And you shouldn't get to decide. Issues shouldn't be decided as impossible by *you*. Perfectly find proposals like Nicholas' got scuttled for no good reason, merely under peer pressure and political maneuvering. If there are duplicates, they can be merged, which should be a separate operation, not "closed". You are not trustworthy in deciding what is "actionable" because you have your own narrow sectarian agenda.

Thraxis Epsilon

Nicolas' proposal did not get scuttled. HE closed it on his own. He then expanded and seperated it into seperate related proposals. Proposals that right now are still open on the JIRA.

Thraxis Epsilon

Nicolas' proposal did not get scuttled. HE closed it on his own. He then expanded and seperated it into seperate related proposals. Proposals that right now are still open on the JIRA.

Prokofy Neva

Thraxis, you are obdurately refusing to read what I actually put about Nicholas: obviously he closed his own proposal, but I pointed out that he closed it under peer pressure -- because people ganged up on him and argued strenuously with him and talked him out of it. It was a GOOD proposal. If I'm not mistaken, in fact it's what we used to have. What he separated it into isn't the same thing. It was simpler and more elegant the way he first had it.

The argumentation that people used was specious, non-persuasive, and amounted to "that's not the way we do things here".

Ordinal Malaprop

Nicholaz has just written a very good piece on Philip's recent post, where he shows that he is quite aware that his own fixes have _not_ been taken up and incorporated, and that the immediate needs to be addressed rather than dealing with roadmaps and future plans.

Ordinal Malaprop

Oh, sorry, a link to it:

http://nicholaz-beresford.blogspot.com/2007/11/long-road-behind-long-road-ahead.html

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