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Cristiano Midnight

Never mind that the discussion happened long before the attack on the grid, knock yourself out on distorting it. You always do.

By the way, the "tier" you keep talking about was not free - you leave out the part where $225 was paid. The person who supposedly strung together all these premium accounts did so after spending over $3,000 - again, stupidity as a sim would have been cheaper, even with the equivalent sim payments. Don't let the fact that these were not free accounts or some grant from LL cloud your judgement, or that it was only for beta users. Second Life launched in June of 2003 - Lifetime accounts were available until the end of December 2003. You were late to the party, but everyone at the time was elligible - and everyone else with a premium account enjoys double tier for the same price.

Again, the main issue with Cocoanut is that she wailed about how hard it was to find First Land because of alt accounts buying it up, but then she turned around and did the same thing.

Prokofy Neva

The discussion *persisted* because of all the time on their hands that the forum monkeys had.

Um, once again, I didn't "leave it out" in a sentence where I quoted you, saying it cost $225. So? It costs more now. And it KEEPS COSTING. WHEREAS YOU ONLY PAID IT ONCE. Geez, how lame is that, not to get it. Gah, you're awful.

I think what the person did was get the accounts over time. And it may have been worth it. If I could buy a sim for $3000 AND not have any tier on it for two years, hmmm....

I never said they were purchase-cost-free, I said that free tier is an advantage, a distinct one, and one you keep playing down. I've proved myself right ONCE AGAIN. The hysterical effort to prove it not to be a privilege, even stepping on the truth, and even claiming I've "left out" the purchase price (a false claim you've made before) is really hilarious.

I don't care if I was late for the party. I care about pointing out that your party got you some freebies, some privileges, and a leg up in the game. That wouldn't be bad in and of itself, except you use it to lord it over others, bullying them, trying to enforce group-think on the forums, etc. That's what's wrong.

No, Cocoanut didn't do a thing that was wrong. It's right to wail. She bought an account. That's a trigger to the Lindens to put out more pies. They didn't bake them. Then they got on it, and put them out. She bought another account -- there's another trigger. It doesn't "take from someone else" to get first land the second time, anymore than it does the first time. The Lindens tie new land production with new accounts. This is so easy to understand that it is real malevolence not to admit it. There's no judgement in their putting out more land. They don't say, "hmmm, let's see who already has some, and doesn't deserve more, and is landless REALLY and only put out some for them!" They aren't that ridiculous.

You are.


It's your own fault you were too busy with your 2348676 alts in TSO to have any clue what was going on in SL at the time. You snooze you lose. No 4096 for you.

juro kothari

As an honorary FIC member, I would like to take this moment to fess up to the perk I recieved in lieu of a $225 payment. That perk was a tier-free 4096sqm parcel.

It was a gamble at the time, considering LL had layoffs and there was no guarantee that the 'lifetime' aspect would be around for another 6 months. Fortunately, it worked out and it gets cheaper and cheaper each month.

My only regret? That I did not partake in multiple 'lifetime' accounts with the tier-free, one time $225 charge 4096.

juro kothari

Prokofy, you know that I've never denied the great deal it was - because it was! What I don't understand is why it is important to you to point out that some of the folks - who were in SL early on and were presented with that opportunity and took it - have this benefit?

Prokofy Neva

I point it out because they deny that it's a deal, constantly downplay it, constantly refuse to admit that it constitutes a well and proper feting, and after getting this uber feting, they have the nerve to trounce somebody for taking a second 512 subsidized first-land on their second account -- a perfectly legal option (and not unlike the stringing together of 4096s, also at one time legal) or telling people they should "make stuff" and not rely on stipends from ratings, when they themselves have benefited from tier-free land AND from free ratings they built up for years. It's that stinginess in taking a huge cut themselves and denying it to others that's so reprehensible.

The deal itself is not the problem -- the Linden need to keep incentives like this such as 10 percent tier bonus or subsidized 512s when you first start. If anything, they need to think up some more to keep people interested in managing the chaos of the mainland.

Prokofy Neva

Juro, I'm so glad you confirmed this point:

"My only regret? That I did not partake in multiple 'lifetime' accounts with the tier-free, one time $225 charge 4096."

Every time Cristiano and others whine about me pointing out this perk, they hasten to tell me (like this is news???) that they PAID for this perk. Um, ok. But they just paid a ONE-TIME CHARGE OF $225. I paid a fee like that to get a charter membership in TSO, but all it got me was a "simmy" and a charter magnet to put on my fridge. Getting tier-free status for land in perpetuity is an amazing deal. The failure to admit that, and keep harping on the obvious fact that you had to pay a one-time annualized fee to get that deal --as if that somehow diminishes the perk -- is what makes the FIC so suspect.

Prokofy Neva

Oh, and the other way in which the FIC - yourself included -- try to downplay this perk and make it instead look like a valourous selfless deed is to paint a lurid picture of what a gamble it was, how the Lindens were even laying off people, how the future looked dark, blah blah. Please. Spare me. It's an amazing deal, then as now.

juro kothari

I think we can all agree that, in hindsight, it is an amazing deal. However, I don't think it's fair of you to discount the uncertainty of it at the time and the gamble that some took. It was a gamble, which happened to pay off, but noone could have known at the time. There was a feeling, at least from my point of view, that there was a good chance SL may not make it for another 6 mos. It does not change the fact that it was a great deal, but it doesn't mean the decision to part with $225 was a no-brainer.

Also, I do wonder if the tier-free 4096 was created to foster an extended sense of ownership in SL and encourage more people to stay and not go wondering off to some other world.

Cristiano Midnight


You do realize that those who bought the lifetime accounts throughout beta and up to the point where they stopped offering them did not know about the 4096m of tier, right? The concept of tier did not exist at all until version 1.2 in December of 2003 - the exact same time they STOPPED offering them. When they came up with the concept of tier, they offered standard account holders (the 14.95 per month accounts 1024m of tier per month, and they offered lifetime holders (which at this point had paid $225 to offset a $14.95 a month fee) 4096 tier. That is a missing link you never talk about. People did not run around buying these accounts to try to get some big leg up on the land market, as tier did not exist until the very point at which they stopped selling the accounts.

Prokofy Neva

No, I'm well aware of that, Cristiano, and I thought that was understood. It was a different era, with a different perception, and tier was absent and then the accounts were restructured as tier. We know all that.

But you're still in denial, Cristiano, and it's hopeless. You're still trying to find all kinds of reasons to downplay what a leg up this is. It means having a free anchor store, for any content creator, with absolutely no business costs other than their time and texture uploads. Maybe it's not a HUGE leg up, maybe it's leg-up quality wasn't fully visible at the time because of how the game changed, but it is still a perk, still an advantage, and you are still wierd for not acknowledging that.

juro kothari

" It means having a free anchor store, for any content creator, with absolutely no business costs other than their time and texture uploads."

Prokofy - that's not true or fair of you to say. Noone is denying it turned out to be a fabulous deal for those who opted to pay the $225.

But, if you're going to hold Cristiano's feet to the fire to fess up to it being a 'deal' or 'leg up' - then I'm going to do the same to you and insist that you recognize that there WAS a business cost to it - $225.

Yes, that cost gets cheaper as each month goes by (for those who stay around), but it still is a cost.

For example, I got mine almost exactly 2yrs ago. 225/24 = 9.375. So, currently that 4096 has cost me $9.38/mo. That will adjust to $6.25/mo. this time next year.

Definately a great deal if you were around to opt for it, but certainly not 'free' of any business costs.

Prokofy Neva

Juro, nobody says it isn't a cost, but it is a cost that DISAPPEARS after a year and becomes merely the cost of a regular premium account, with which you only get 512 free tier -- not 4096 free tier -- in other words, y your TIER COST DISAPPEARS TO 0. TO 0.0! Geez, why is that so HARD to admit?

Your notion that you have to factor it in over 2 years makes no sense to me at all. You bought a charter lifetime subscription for $225 for a year's advance payment. You don't *keep* paying $225 every year -- you paid it once. It gave you a 4096 included in that price. The next year, you paid nothing, and got to keep that 4096 for free, and the cost reduced over time.

Nobody said it was FREE of cost but that AFTER you paid, it then became tier-free. That's the point. You don't keep paying $15 a month on it -- you only pay about what you would have paid if you got a regular premium subscription!

This math has been done countless times on the forums, and you are still griping and trying to downplay your perk. Sheesh. If I got a 4096 today, along with my monthly subscription annualized, it would cost me $21.25 per month if I bought the year subscription which reduces your monthly cost to $6.25 or thereabouts. So honestly, that is quite a bit more than $9.38. And I'd have to KEEP PAYING that annual subscription each year, which you won't have to do.

WHY is that so hard to admit???

juro kothari

Bitch, please. I'm not downplaying anything. I got a great deal. What more do you want?

My point is that you continually make these claims like "absolutely no business costs" - which is not true.

Yes, I paid $225 once, and only once for a lifetime of tier-free 4096 land. Each year I hang on, that $225 payment becomes a better bargain.

Yes, you'd have to keep paying monthly tier, because you weren't around then - but I am sure that if you were, not only would you have taken up the offer, you would have strung some together - which is something that I wish I would've done, but I was more than happy with one. In hindsight, since I'm already being hung from the rafter by whiny little post-beta, non-tekkie bitches like yourself, I should have taken on more and made the most out of it.

To summarize, dear Prokofy - it is by no means hard for me to admit the deal I got. I'm happy with it and happy with the way the gamble turned out.

It's unfortunate that some continue to give me and other Lifetime account holders a hard time over it.

Tell me, Prokofy - if you were in my position, how would you respond to your posts?

Prokofy Neva

Juro, I never said there are "absolutely no business costs" -- there are costs but they are THE SAME OR LESS than the regular account and therefore a DEAL because you get MORE duh.

Yeah, you should have taken on more. And no, I don't whine because you HAVE this, I bitch because you PRETEND IT'S NOT A DEAL AND KEEP DOWNPLAYING IT.

If I had the deal you had -- or let's say it turns out that tomorrow, the Lindens double tier or take away the free 512s or something equivalent, I'd say, hell yeah, I got a deal. I got here earlier, and I got a deal. I'd also point out that I work my ass off in this game. And that I also do a lot for the public in terms of creating free public space and subsidized rents. So what's your story? Honestly, I fail to see why you can't simply say "Yes, we got a deal, you are absolutely right, and yet, you know, we haven't even made really good use of it."

juro kothari

I suppose when you say:
"Juro, I never said there are 'absolutely no business costs'"

You forgot about this:
"...absolutely no business costs other than their time and texture uploads."

Ever since you made this an issue, I have said it was a smashing deal - have I made good use of it? Sure have. Is it the same good use you'd make of it? Probably not.

Honestly, I don't know what you want from me with this, Prokofy. I'm not in denial that this was and still is a great deal for me.

I'm glad you work your ass off in the game, Prokofy. If I had the means, I'd allow for more time inworld, but I can't right now. It's very noble of you to provide free meeting space and subsidized rents. That helps out new players - like my freebies do.

So, what do I do? I build. I raise the bar on building, providing better and better content for a price that is inline with my competitors. That's what I do and I, like you, don't need or look for others to validate it - tier free 4096 or not.

Prokofy Neva


""...absolutely no business costs other than their time and texture uploads."

This ASSUMES that ALL of us have to pay a SUBSCRIPTION FEE. That's just a given! Your fee is 9.93, like a regular $9.95 subscription fee with only a free 512 on it. So honestly, when it comes to land/tier/business costs beyond obviously the basic subscription fee, it is FREE.

Juro, you've said all the right things. I don'thave a beef with you. You work, you do stuff for newbies, you're a model citizen. It's others like Cristiano who are whining about having in fact to pay, and not admitting the feting that goes on. You know you are feted, Juro, and I don't hear you denying it.


"Your notion that you have to factor it in over 2 years makes no sense to me at all. You bought a charter lifetime subscription for $225 for a year's advance payment. You don't *keep* paying $225 every year -- you paid it once. It gave you a 4096 included in that price. The next year, you paid nothing, and got to keep that 4096 for free, and the cost reduced over time."

No. Wrong-O.

What they paid for was a lifetime account BEFORE tier existed. At the time they purchased them, everyone was paying a flat monthly fee to be in SL, and that's what they thought they were buying.

Being that they did not know about the 1.2 changes coming, which were literally dropped like a bomb one night, with no warning, you can't hold them to your "it's a perk because of the monthly tier...yadda, yadda, yadda" That is not what they bought into. That is what their accounts BECAME when LL decided to kick in the 4096 for lifetimers with the advent of 1.2

I find it amazing that above you claim to have known that lifetime accounts were not sold with free 4096 allotments, yet you continue to try and apply that line of logic to the perk. Those people did not know when they bought those accounts that they would be getting the 4096!

Shame on you for your attempts to paint these folks as less than grateful or cognisant of the fact that this is a perk.

You're simply trying to cast aspersions on their characters. Bottom feeding, because you now know that your whole claim about old players stringing 4096s together to grab up swathes of land has been revealed to be incorrect.

Prokofy Neva

Duh, I know, that's why I wrote, THE NEXT YEAR. Everyone knows about the uncertainties of SL anad the virtual gamble that these um selfless people took to the great benefit of um all simkind. But the point is it became a perk -- a significant one -- and they -- and you -- cannot admit it. Here you are again, trying to explain that it's only a backdated perk, or a perk that they subsequently find out about. So? it's still a perk, a substantial one, and you can't admit it, you are still trying to portray them as Innocents Abroad.

People did indeed string them together, they have told me they did this, and they did this to get what the program offered. It's not about "aspersion," it's *reporting what people have done and what they have told me they did.* It's fine they did this, taking advantage of whatever program and subsequent advantages it had. What's not fine is the constant posturing and muscling to get people to believe they don't have something that is in fact significant.


Names please. This is a blog, and you are not bound to the SL ToS here. You certainly haven't been averse to naming names here before..

Ahh, but you DON'T HAVE any names, and anyone in their right mind, had they actually done this, certainly wouldn't tell YOU!

You tried to pin the stringing 4096s crap on those who were debating the sycophantic Giiligan to your Jonas Grumby, Coconutter. You were shown how wrong you were, so then it became these fake people who have "told you" so. BLAH BLAH BLAH. It's nice to see that you and Coco tactics. Sharing is a nice thing. "THEY SAID!" My ass. EVEN IF these people told you so, they aren't the ones debating Coconutz! So your point is?

Then you decided that if you couldn't pin the stringing 4096 crap on those individuals, you would instead attack their supposed inability to admit it it was a perk. Which, I don't think you have or can successfully demonstrate. Quotes please, to where they said it was "not a perk". You and Gilligan seem to think that you can wish things into existence by sheer force of mantra. Sorry Porky, it doesn't work that way with people who can think for themselves.

How convenient for your argument. Another "they say" load of dung. Sorry, that type of rhetoric doesn't fly with some of us who aren't snowed by your gratuitous prevarication.

Please quote me where I "portray them as Innocents Abroad".

I have never said anything of the sort.

I have never characterized them in any manner, negative or positive. Simply disagreeing with the negative character traits you are attempting to ascribe to them does not mean I think they are angels. I will thank you to kindly stop speaking for me, especially when what you ascribe to me is completely fabricated camel droppings.

A)They said it was a gamble. You agreed it was a gamble.

B)You said it was a perk. They agreed it is a perk.

So what is the fucking problem?

I have reread this comments section several times, and I see Juro and Cristiano admitting it was a perk multiple times.

So what the fuck is your problem if it's not a personal issue which you are feeding on to attack their characters?

I think most of us know the answer to that.

Prokofy Neva

I don't see any reason to name the name of a person who told me me this and embarass them. It is a fact, however, and they know who they are, and there are more than one of them.

I do indeed have proof, but there's no requirement that I have to give it to you, if you don't buy it, that's your problem. It is indeed the case, and the others aren't contesting that because they know it to be true.

No, read my article. I said that there are those who string them, and that at least one who strings them backs one of the people who is harassing Cocoanut. I made that careful point specifically. I didn't say those goading Cocoanut were stringers, but then, I didn't know if they were -- they might or might not confess. It's not important. I know there are some who are : )

No, it's true, and I've seen it, and it's notecarded lol. Oh well, it seems terribly important for you to disclaim this. That's because you know that if it is proven, then it is indeed a perk, and possibly not a justifiable one. That's why you and others try so hard to dispute it or downplay it -- because you do feel that it is a perk that you can't justify. If it weren't such a big deal, you wouldn't be working overtime to do this ROFL.

My point is, that these people harassing Cocoanut KNOW FULL WELL that there are those who have strung 4096s together, and in the cases of some of them, they themselves own at least one 4096. They don't deny that they can be strung together because they know it is true, they just aren't willing to publicize it.

Note once again: they don't dispute that stringing is possible and that even their pals have done it -- because they have LOL. You're the only one doing this. They then try to dispute that it's much of a perk -- but it is.

By constantly trying to fight this off, by constantly trying to prove they paid for it (as if someone said it was free, when no one said it was free) or that they didn't know how SL would turn out (when we all know it) or that they didn't know there'd be tier (when our point is that they still got the advantage of it later) -- they show how guilty-minded they are about it. I guess it goes against their own nascent socialist inclinations LOL.

I have no objective need to lie about something like this. I'm reporting on it, and if it is not persuasive to you, well, too bad. Ask those harassing Cocoanut in private, they'll tell you it is indeed true, and then they'll try to downplay it. You at least aren't downplaying it, but trying to prove it's not true. When you are done doing that, and realize it IS true, then I'll be fascinated to see whether you then scurry to downplay it like the rest. What you are doing now is basically admitting that it is a real big perk. Thanks!

Um, nobody said you literally used a term "innocents abroad," that is just a summary of what you are doing, which is to whitewash them -- you do that by claiming that I'm lying, and they aren't lying, but they know full well that 4096s were strung -- ask them ingame!

I see Juro agreeing it is a perk. I don't see Cristiano and others agreeing, they are still downplaying. If they say "Ok, ok, it's a perk," they still keep yammering about how they paid a cost for it blah blah. They can't accept that it is what it is -- what can I say? Guilty conscience. And needlessly so. It's a perk. They should admit it full-throatedly and not endlessly try to justify it.

I have no objective need to attack their characters. What I do is attack their duplicitious hypocrisy in dancing around this thing and not admitting from the get-go what a perk it is. Juro finally admitted -- but only after many rounds. What Juro finally did write is the case.

Why do you need to keep carrying water for these people?

Cristiano Midnight


My owning or not owning a lifetime account does not make Cocoanut any less of a hypocrite. She whined how awful it was that her newbie self could not find First Land for such a long time because of all the big meanies double and triple and quadruple and gang dipping, and how awful that was (cue the violins). Then, when push came to shove, she had no problem doing the same thing. There is the hypocrisy you don't push back against, and it is because Cocoanut is your friend. If you at least had the cajones (well, figuratively speaking, lady) to say that, then there would be no argument here. Instead, you claim to this ridiculous argument that First Land is some inaliable right of buying a premium account. It's not - it is a one time benefit for a new player, given in good faith. Beyond that, they have to deal with that free land market you love so much. For someone who squawks like a fucking parrot non-stop about subsidizing and socialism, you have no problem taking yourself up to the trough when it suits you, and blustering all about it. It's hilarious actually, and the more you try to backtrack, the funnier it gets.

Prokofy Neva

No, Cocoanut isn't a hypocrite, but you, bolstered by all your "great life truths" from *cough* dubious sources like Da Vinci Code ROFL are one yourself.

Have you no shame, Cristiano? Cocoanut is not doing a thing wrong. The 512s come with the premiums. You take them. The Lindens roll out new ones. Next? Could you maybe work up some more worry about something really worth worrying about like people being raped and killed in Darfur?

She's right to whine when the Lindens don't get on the stick, listen to their own signals, and make new land to match and even overmatch the number of premium accounts. They need to get over their old numbers and old realities fed to them by the factors of the socialist elites who went around spouting "you don't need land to have fun" and kvetching about land barons and scammers.

It's not because Cocoanut is my friend. It's because it's the right position to take, free of judgement and idiocy. Land just comes with the account. There's no Bide-A-Wee Home we have to look out for. Newbies aren't some impoverished needy class of people. The Lindens are a fairly rich game company that can roll out more land. If Newbie Cocoanut doesn't have land, it's not because another person like the Future Secondby Cocoanut took it from her, it's because the Lindens didn't roll out enough to match their account surge. Secondbies have every right to buy second first land that automatically comes clickable within their account: repeat, it comes clickable within their account.

If Cocoanut back then claimed about people bu7ying up dozens of accounts over the 5 limit and trying to flip land, she'd be right to do that because the Lindens themselves not only say it's not allowed, they enforce it. With the po-fo'ks 512 thingie, some Lindens, when pushed against the wall, tell you it's meant as those who are "entering the land market for the first time," but they don't really enforce it or code it or take any action against it whatsoever. Sorry, you're out of arguments there.

Indeed, First Land is an Inalienable Right of a premium account, and God Bless It. There is nothing socialist about having a starter land go with each and every account. Every game or entrance ticket or deal has some kind of thing like that, like the chips for Atlantic City. As well it should. You get 5, and they all have to be equal. The Lindens can't police every single account to see if it is really run by only one person, and that is not their goal. The Lindens are a lot more matter-of-fact, normal, and pragmatic than you are on that.

You are fervent, zealous, hysterical, and ideological. You ascribe evil when it does not exist, and attribute good where it is not needed. Accounts are accounts, devoid of good or evil. They have 512s on them. Buy them, get the land.

It's not "socialist" to give people a newbie starter package for a $9.95 admission ticket, or to say "limit 5 per customer". This is just normal business. Again, it's your zealotry that can fish a socialism out of thing like that. Most sensible people won't bother doing this, because there's no value-ad. They can just buy money now for cheaper, and if they need land they can find much, much better locations for it than newbie swamps. Your continued fetishizing of newbies and first land is getting really creepy.

Everything that has been said now in this last round, Cristiano, has already been said before. It's really getting tiresome. I don't agree with your assessment of land and its uses and values in SL and never will. Nor do most normal people -- of which there are increasingly scads more in the game. For that matter, even your social engineering pals out in California don't get all weepy-eyed either about first land but offer one per account and 5 of them per customer without getting all Leninist or calling out Dorothy Day and the Catholic Workers.

Erm...would it be about now that it would be useful to point out that even if I or Cocoanut or some other putative user of all 5 of their legal and entitled accounts were to buy up 512s on each account, they'd only muster 2560 m2, and have to pay $49.75 for the first month of accounts (discounted if they take quarterly or annual subs) Now...hmmm, that's still less than 4096 meters which you get for $9.93 per month in the second year of your perk. Is your conscience bothering you Cristiano?

Cristiano Midnight

You have a lot of nerve claiming I need to be worried about something really important like what is occuring in Darfur, when you spend day after day writing pointless bullshit in this useless blog, getting all lathered up over stuff that doesn't matter one iota. Look in the mirror, and go outside once in awhile.

Cristiano Midnight

PS - my conscience is not bothering me at all. I bought a lifetime account in good faith, and enjoy the benefits of it. The main thing is it burns you up that you come late to something, and if you haven't gotten something, than no one should have it. That is as lame as the trite bullshit you post day after day, week after week. Important historical document? Hardly.

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