Second Thoughts

Imagine if the Pizza Guy Stole LL

Photomontage by Schwanson Schlegel

Dear Philip,

Imagine if you sat in your office at Linden Lab at 1100 Sansome Street in San Francisco, CA, and you had to *live with the group tools you have installed in Second Life* only in RL.

Your personally as an individual entrepreneur, and some of your colleagues, have invested incredible time, talent, and treasure into this venture called Linden Lab which created Second Life.

Imagine if, each time a customer bought a subscription, each time a venture capitalist sent you a check, each time you sold sims on the auction, each time your stock generated dividends, the amount would circulate equally to every single person in the office -- to you, as CEO, and to the clerk in the mail room -- exactly equally.

Imagine, if you then tried to convince this staff you had just so handsomely rewarded, despite entirely different levels of contribution and work, to understand that they at least had to kick some back to pay for your server leases or payroll tax -- and they laughed in your face and said they wanted you instead to provide them three free meals a day and a trip to Cancun.

Imagine the chaos if regardless of your investment, regardless of your up-front purchase and your monthly costs, any revenue coming into the company would split 100 ways, or however many staff, consultants, and vendors you have in your operation.

Imagine if this amazing software you created had to have a function clicked off on it called "share with group" and "deed" in order to have anybody in the office use it. But if you decided to store it or put it away -- to send the tapes to another office -- they automatically destroyed, never to be retrieved (that's actually what happens to deeded objects returned from group land, and the system now even warns you that will happen when you attempt to clear up prims).

Imagine if in this system, someone called in sick for 3 days, or someone had to leave on maternity leave, or you were forced to fire someone -- and your entire corporation disbanded because there weren't enough people in it anymore, and the state of California seized it (that's what happens due to groups automatically disbanding if they have less than 3 members, within 3 days).

Imagine if the pizza guy came to deliver a pizza, and you had to click off options that enabled him to come in your door, and enable him to set the pizza on the table, and then clear the box away, let's say -- and then you woke up the next morning to discover that the pizza guy stole your entire parcel of land, your office building, and all your computers and equipment. The pizza guy! Merely because you wanted him to have the function of being able to deliver, and then throw out the pizza box!

Imagine if you wanted to avoid this problem of the pizza guy stealing your entire operation, but to work around that, you had to take some of your assets to, say, participate in an exhibit and make travel advances and ship equipment somewhere to another state, but doing that required you to put your entire operation at risk (this would be like having to deliberately under-tier your group in SL in order to take land out of the group and set it to sale to yourself personally).

Imagine if you devised a piece of software and needed everyone on the team to help develop and finish it, so you to click off "set to group," but the guy in the copy room who is copying your press release then grabs the software, puts it into his knapsack, and takes it home, never again to be seen.

Imagine if anybody in your office could anonymously flip a switch and vote you out of your job as CEO, merely by collecting enough angry employees who may have only more health benefits or free lunches on their mind, and not the company's bottom line.

Imagine if anybody in the lunchroom could get up a group of disgruntled employees and decide to vote any one of their number to the status of board member  -- and do this aggressively enough times, so that a new board could sell you to your competitor against your will.

Sit and look at your group tools as they are now, imagine if you had to live in RL with them, and please, run, don't walk away in horror from these group tools as you have them now, in every way.

You realize you need to reform these tools. But you haven't *really* thought about what it is *really like* to live with them because you *don't have to*. But we do.

Right now, some people want to keep these tools exactly as they are now, and in fact graft your concept of the "covenant" on them. Just as you and your colleagues did when you began SL with these group tools as they are now, they want to encourage what seemed like the ideal project -- a group of intelligent, like-minded people of good will getting together, each putting in exactly the same amount of money to buy a sim, and each paying exactly the same amount of tier, to do some cooperative project or business or educational group of some type.

You didn't do this when you started LL, really -- you didn't tell the pizza guy and the copy room guy that they would get thousands of your dollars just because you had a bright idea, a resume, and a venture capitalist.

Yet that's what happens in SL with group tools.

The reality is that except for Neualtenberg, a socialist experiment, and a few other very tightly-knit and small groups, this utopian idea of the 10 good-willed friends sharing a sim exactly equally isn't the norm in SL, it isn't viable, and it is not what free people chose in a free market.

Instead of listening to professors and pundits pushing this concept of the utopian ideal, study what people actually make and do in SL -- and learn from the field experience instead of imposing ideological solutions generated by people who never pay for land but squat on others' land.

The reality is that despite these awful "hippie commune" group tools, despite the awful risks of everybody from the pizza guy to the copy room clerk being able to disrupt, freeze, injure, and even steal the land in a group -- and doing so! -- land groups in SL have thrived, usually because one individual is willing to take responsibility for most of the tier and expense, and take on the risk and constant need for judgement required in bringing others into their businesses.

The group tools need to be changed so that *just like you as a CEO at Linden Lab at 1100 Sansome Street in San Francisco, CA, Real Life* can have the SAME protections and benefits you enjoy in your own corporation.

We do not need, in the name of outworn and already disproven socialist ideals and social-engineering utopian ideas, to sit again and again together making plans and projects, only to have the pizza guy steal our groups and our land. If pizza guys need opportunities in life and need resources and education, there are better ways to organize that then enabling him to commit crime again and again -- and destroy our ability to function and prosper not only for ourselves, but for the good of the whole society.

When you conceive of any kind of covenant arrangement, despite what you hear from shrill forums fear-mongerers conjuring up visions of tyrants raging across sims, you must ensure that the same rights and privileges you enjoy as CEO of Linden Lab are extended to us, not only your customers, but your residents in your world which you say is supposed to be our world.

That means you cannot set up needless risk and injury by having a group-think prevail even in voluntary group associations that would cause a mob rule or simple majority to unseat an investor from his investment.

Getting help with management, sharing resources, enabling people to create and build on land you tier is NOT tyranny: it's good management, of the kind you yourself and your colleagues practice in your own corporation. Such assumption of responsiblity should not mean that you must also constantly expose oneself to terrible disruption and risk in the name of somebody's ideal of "justice".

That means there simply has to be gradation in the tools, so that the founder can opt either to click off boxes making every officer in the group equal, so that any officer can remove any other officer through a vote (i.e. to make the old officer recall function only within the group of officers and only by name, not by all members, and not anonymously). OR so that the founder can opt to have the other officers only be deputies, that is, able to return prims or set music or perform other functions but not remove him and not sell the land out from under him. After all, if they don't like his rule and his management, they can leave and form their own groups and pay for their own sims and tier them.

Those who wish to live under the old group tools, or any kind of "distributive-justice" tools must be allowed to do so. If they wish to have equal-forced distribution and perfect equal sharing of all income and resources, then they must be able to set this up on a sim they themselves purchase and pay the tier on.

They must not. however -- in the name of their ideologically-driven ambition and zeal be allowed to impose a social order -- to build this utopian concept into the tools themselves and spread this model over the entire grid. It is a model most reject, it is unworkable, and it is the chief reason why businesses have not flourished as much as they could in SL.

It's not a model you yourself live under in RL. There is no excuse to promote it in SL in the name of a Better World that time again in human history, has not resulted from collectivism -- instead, most often quite the opposite has occured.

Right now, Robin Linden is managing the community dialogue on this, and we are all working out a process for our input. The current model is to have half dozen focus groups, each with just 8 people in them, to be able to avoid some of the chaotic and disruptive huge town halls, or confusing community round tables, that often occur in the SL setting. Then all of this commentary and thinking will evidently be collated and distilled. It's not an ideal process, and depends heavily on the person doing the distillation, but I suppose it's worth trying.

Meanwhile, as you sit munching your pizza at the lunchroom table at 1100 Sansome Street in San Francisco, CA, Real Life, think of how the pizza guy would almost walk away with your store if you had to suffer under group tools in real life, and I want you to think of me sitting here in the Sutherland Dam in Second Life, unable to hire a manager and have him take care of my customers by removing stray crashed airplanes and griefing fire prims, unable to have a tenant be able to texture a house by putting it into "share with group" because she might just put it into inventory and steal it, unable to quickly sell off a parcel of land if I need to without under-tiering and resetting it to only myself to avoid 220 tenants each getting a piece of the sale price equally, and unable to even pay for the parcel fees myself some weeks, forcing tenants to share the burden equally with a few points off their stipend.

Imagine if the Pizza Guy stole LL, and change the group tools!

Sincerely,

Prokofy Neva

The Lordfly Demographic

I really have to chuckle at Lordfly replaying this post of mine on the forums, which has not only started the week's Prok-hate-fest, but fueled the usual intra-forums wars over who is "ferrying text" from The Banned One and who is carrying water for The Banned One -- and the usual attacks on me for "making a personal attack".

So let's go over this story again, shall we? I think it's highly instructive. I don't believe it is a "personal attack," but merely an analysis of data presented by Hamlet and a discussion of a very public figure.

Hamlet did a survey and published some data. It's not an accurate and weighted sociological peer-reviewed study, just a straw poll, really, made up of the people who replied.

What did we learn about the majority of those who replied -- that is, the most active, the most motivated to make their voices heard?

75 percent of them are male. Of these, 26-35 percent are between the ages of 26-35. Yet, they only make under $20,000 per year -- 27.3 percent of them do not make a minimum, living wage, at least in term of the United States, where 23.8 percent of them live, on the East Coast. A generous 36.1 percent of them are in the IT/Computers field -- yet still not making a minimum wage, and likely employed therefore only part-time, because they have more than 10 hours a week -- a whopping 58.4 percent of them -- to play online games! Yet, even having that time to kill on online games, in our favourite online game, Second Life, they only make less than $1000 US (26.7 percent of them) from their chosen occupation in that game/platform monetarizing thingie. Asked what they'd like to see in Hamlet's blog and what their interests are, the majority said, "architecture" (41.9 percent) and most weighed in for the "About cool content (games/machinima/builds, etc.)....... 19.7%

Hey, I didn't make up these numbers, Hamlet published them.

So...think about all these demographics a little bit. The portrait that emerges is someone who is in college -- hence the time, the support (from scholarships, loans, or Mom & Dad), the unemployment, and yet the lack of really a whole LOT of time to do a "job" in Second Life. So, college or part-time employment plus college -- though to get into the demographics of 26 and above, you have to wonder...grad school? (Delayed college after a few years smoking dope in Bali and wandering around Europe on the trust fund?) Add further the interest in the kewlest stuff, machinima, and architecture, which involves building, or at least admiring, 3-D stuff in 3-D worlds, and an even clearer portrait emerges.

Well, if you didn't think of Lordfly, I'm sure I'm not the only one who did lol. Of course, it's not a perfect fit -- he's not on the East Coast, he's under 26. But what would you prefer then...Hiro? FlipperPA? Well, you get my point...

It's not a "personal attack" to single him or other forums royals out because he -- and they -- have made themselves public figures in SL and on the forums. Most days do not go buy without a scathing, withering, sarcasting comment from Lordfly on the forums. Do a search on Lordfly, and see the huge magnum opus of scathing, withering, snarky, cynical, and condescending comments from our own quintessential Hamlet demographic, Lordfly (and his cohort, which includes, as I look at this and the next demographic wedge, everyone from Enabran to Chip and Cristiano). To take but only one example, there's the put-down of that poor woman who ordered the NPC baby who didn't get delivered.

When I see these demographics converge, I ask the obvious question any analytical observer would ask. Could this overwhelmingly male, overwhelmingly 20-something, overwhelmingly college, underemployed, in both RL and SL, yet overengaged on gaming and interest in 3-D world-building help us to understand a) the nature of our forums or b) the nature of our world?

That is, not to understand *everything* about it. Of course there are 30-year-old females with purple wings and stuff who don't fit this demographic at all! But, taken together, taken analytically, it does help to understand why the *visible and vocal part of our world* has the feel and look and behaviour that it does. It's hard to see how anybody can argue with that?

But to take it further, one has to understand certain elements of it:

o People in this age cohort have little life experience, they are just finishing their college years and starting on jobs and may have never had to really do anything significant in life like support a family, start a business, travel abroad, etc. So they find it easy to put down others on forums -- it just comes with the territory.

o People in this gender cohort tend toward being aggressive.

o People in this ethnic/national cohort tend to be aggressive as well, and often ignorant and isolated in their thinking about "the rest of the world".

o People who are underemployed tend to view themselves as entitled to be supported by others, whether Mom & Dad, a grant, a loan, expropriation from the expropriators, dropping out from the evil globalism economy, or whatever their worldview enables them to say about living on $20,000 a year. In fact, they may be growing bean sprouts and helping the people of Darfur and living a sparse and ecologically-aware existence in a commune, but that explains their outlook, too.

o People who are also not employed significantly in the game itself are also those who tend not to have to deal with customers, or the headaches of business and other responsibilities, or not to be so engrossed in their creativity or art or programming that they have time...to snark on the forums.

o Add to that the interest in architecture, and you refine the lens completely for SL. Lots of people are interested in architecture for all kinds of reasons. I know I am! But it also tends to be the case, when combined with all those other demographics, that people who want to do architecture in games have ambitious and ego-driven World-Building Concepts of leaving Impressive and Lasting Structures. Again, it just comes with the territory. Civilization is often driven by such people, and of course the Randians love this stuff. It merely bears analysis to explain *why our world is the way it is*.

Of course, someone less analytical and less cynical than me could parse these same demographics and come up with, oh, I dunno, one of these do-gooders who Is Building A Better World, never posting a discouraging word on the forums, only taking part earnesly in Dialogues About Democracy and all the rest of it.

But again, my purpose in this analysis was to examine why our world is the way it is -- the visible part of our world.

And I don't know about you, but I've got my answers.

Torley Levels Up to Linden

Torley Torgeson has become Torley Linden.

It's not only that Torley, a beloved and admired figure for all of SL, went and leveled up and beat the bosses and got all the skills and the gold and added Torley Linden as an account.

She may have been the first person in the history of SL to have her resident account "Torley Torgeson" merged into "Torley Linden" -- Torgeson is simply gone from the list now, and the same avatar icon, with the exact same groups, the exact same inventory and everything else has been melded.

I condemn it utterly.

I am saddenedly horribly.

It is the end of "Your World, Your Imagination"; it is the beginning (or the final exposure of) "Our World, Your Imagination" or -- as I've often lamented -- "It's Only Your Imagination That It's Your World."

Imagine, the Lindens can GOM not only GOM -- an institution, which also involved hurting two hard-working people.

They can GOM a person, an avatar, and completely obliterate any trace of it from the data base.

Scary.

That saddest thing is that there are a hundred people cheering this on, thinking it's the greatest thing since cream cheese, making jokes about watermelon textures on the ground and a watermelon moon, references to Torley's trademark iconic props.

I have always felt a certain kinship with Torley for various reasons, but among them is that the very same day when I was banned from the forums in June, she made an announcement that she was leaving SL. That caused many people to think we were each other's alts, but it was silly, of course we're not, and the two events had absolutely no causal relationship that I can tell.

Torley then came back later...and went and became a Linden.

Right now, I only know one thing: I condemn this with all my heart and soul.

I will come back later and try to analyze more of the horror of it -- and it is a horror.

Sutherland Dam Meeting on Zoning

Doreen Elytis: ty
You: Hi Midtown come on in
Midtown Bienenstich: Hi Prokofy, in your annoncement, you didn';t state a time.
You: yes it's on the top Midtown
Midtown Bienenstich: Told ya so ¬¬
You: on the calendar and on the forums it gives the time Midtown
You: if you mean just now on the reminder, well, whatever
Midtown Bienenstich: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi :)
You: it's a regular event every week
Midtown Bienenstich: hi Gwyn
You: hi Swyn
Doreen Elytis: hi Gwyneth
You: fly upstairs everybody
Oculas Spaceball Bag whispers: Starting Gravity Manipulation, for commands list say 'help'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Am I on the "right" level...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry
You: well let's go up to the ceiling
Tom Bukowski: hey gwy!
Tom Bukowski: gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Tom :)
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, maybe I should spam the
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, hi everybody, really ;)
Midtown Bienenstich: Builders of Second Life group
You: Gwyn what's the news?
You: yes why not?
Midtown Bienenstich: and inform them of the event?
You: the more spam the merrier
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
You: well this is a regular discussion group that I hold every Friday at 6 if I can get here
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Tom Bukowski: uh
You: and we usually discuss the economy
You: and of course everything ties to the economy
Ravenglass Rentals in Patagonia $1000: Store rented for 30 days...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy, are you still part of the Linden "community roundtable" mailing list?
You: no I was booted from it in a blatant violation of law
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I sadly thought as much :(
You: well it's a longer story but I'm banned lol
You: but not from inworld meetings
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: what's on this vaunted and secret list : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Lindens are worried about the "fake events" *again*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: uh-oh
You: oh no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye.
You: the posses are coming to remove content
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Tom Bukowski: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rather, they're seeing how they can make event announcements a "paid" thingy
You: of course
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and somehow merging it with classifiedss
You: not surprising
You: oh geez
You: remove the only entry-level employment in this vicious Darwinist world
You: bleh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, not surprising, because there is no "fair" alternative that does not involve more human resources.
Cocoanut Koala: where the hell are y'all
You: bleh
Barbarra Blair: which means the camping chair people will be the only events left--
You: Coco listen to this!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Cocoa — up here
You: awful awful
Barbarra Blair: Because they are willing to chuck in the cash
Cocoanut Koala: you're competing with Fiddler on the Roof, ya know
Midtown Bienenstich: I got two people from the builder's grup
Midtown Bienenstich: Hi all, btw
Tom Bukowski: hello!
Cocoanut Koala: hiya!
Pierre Mostel: Hello.
Doreen Elytis: hi all
Cocoanut Koala: yes, midtown im
Cocoanut Koala: d me
Gabriel Nosferatu: hello.
Midtown Bienenstich: Third Incoming
Cyber Lightcloud is online
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi, hi :)
You: well I was thinking the Lindens might outsource events to Flippier and slboutique.com
Barbarra Blair: yuk
Midtown Bienenstich: no way
You: well he's started his own list of sanitized events
You: and their trend is to hand off tough jobs to big third-party sites
Lasivian Leandros: Oh, so this isn't a true "round table", it's a "Prok wants to complain" event..
Lasivian Leandros: later
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No fortuntaely it's not so bad!
Midtown Bienenstich: ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft lAsivian
Cocoanut Koala: some people are incapable of conversation, apparently (Lasivian)
Midtown Bienenstich: this is not a "Prok" event.
You: I remember Lasivian, he's the one who got me banned from the Communisty Rount Table list by harassing me on my personal email accusing me of creating filter problems in his own company's systm, when in fact the Lindens were to blame
Barbarra Blair: If events are not part of the standard Linden interface, then a lot of people won't know how to post or read the postings.
You: and when I posted that fact of his name-calling and harassment on the CT list, Pathfinder banned me for "disclosure of a convo"
You: IMagine!
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree completely Blair.
Cocoanut Koala: pure crap, that was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I understand now :)
You: just as an off-topic aside there anyway back to topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes — zoning.
Midtown Bienenstich: YAY!
You: well what you've told us is fodder for a whole other meeting
Tom Bukowski: ah, zoning
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, lol
You: but let's address what Philip said
You: in the Metaverse Messenger
You: did everyone see it or should I paste it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: has anybody understood *how* the enforcing will be done? The rest is "understandable"...
Tom Bukowski: remind us Prok - I glanced at that edition
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah please paste it, prok
You: yes yes
Barbarra Blair: please paste
Tom Bukowski: please paste - I only skimmed it and it's hard opening pdf files with sl on lol
You: well he said LL is developing new group tools
You: just a sec
Barbarra Blair: during your sec
Midtown Bienenstich: camera angles conflict :(
You: takes awhile to load up MM on pdf
Barbarra Blair: the real problem is that everything is divided up into tiny lots and sold willy nilly
You: I wish it were inworld
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, there is no planning or coordination.
Tom Bukowski: yes barbarra
Barbarra Blair: Right.
Pierre Mostel: Excuse me I have something to attend I wasnt monitoring the time.
Tom Bukowski: I've got a problem like that right next to my build right now - a teeny plot, only 7 prims, what else could it be good for?
Midtown Bienenstich: Indeed, the Mainland is barbaric in terms of scenic harmony.
You: well what it said basically is new tools enable a "covenant" to be made
You: when you buy a sim
You: or when you group land
You: but wasn't clear
You: when he said "people on a sim"
You: whether the group becomes just all those people on a sim
You: or only those who join in an assocation
You: they would have deputies who could return prims
You: this was a gradation of the officer functions that we've long asked for
Doreen Elytis: I have to go, bye all
Tom Bukowski: cu!
Midtown Bienenstich: bye
Barbarra Blair: That's fine for group owned land.
You: to avoid the problem of the officers who could sell out from under other officers land that those officers buy or tier
You: yes well the term "covenant" comes from community zoning in some states
You: at the town hall everyone started blasting me when I said this was a "buzz word"
You: it is taken from RL practice in some states in some communities
You: so it's transplating here does constitute a buzz word IMHO
You: LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worse than that... I can understand that groups get a few more extra buttons and labels here... and one will give you a Nota Bene-signed notecard with the "covenant" for the land for that group. BUT... how will it be enforced?
Barbarra Blair: exactly.
Midtown Bienenstich: Most likely integrated with the system.. just not sure how.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How?
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, maybe you can label a prim "residential"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean
Tom Bukowski: methinks it would be tricky to implement
Midtown Bienenstich: :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I humbly bow to programmers with experience...
Barbarra Blair: If group officers can just sieze builds or land, I'd imaginve that groups will become pretty unpopular quick.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but if a notecard says "you can only build 7 trees, not higher than 20 m, and all westwards of homes with less than 8 sides"
Midtown Bienenstich: it's to your left.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *how* will a computer program "enforce" that???
Barbarra Blair: Or, no purple houses or metal boxes etc.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Barbarra.
Barbarra Blair: Obviously a person will have to judge what conforms.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "A person".
Cocoanut Koala: i imagine anyone with such strict a covenant would have no one interested in their area anyway
Midtown Bienenstich: well, height limits would be easy to implement.
Cocoanut Koala: or if they did, the group would soon disband in dissarray
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah lol Cocoanut — yes, perhaps you're right :) :)
Barbarra Blair: DRAMA
Midtown Bienenstich: but, labeling a prim..
Midtown Bienenstich: sounds like hard work.
You: I often wonder if my two simple rules of don't build more than 2 storeys and be considerate of your neighbours couldn't get wider currency
Cocoanut Koala: indeed they could!
Cocoanut Koala: the rules on azure island are very general and lenient
You: I realize that everyone has a story, everyone has a 3-storey castle, I have heard them all, trust me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Prokofy — on your rentals, *you* do the rounds...
Barbarra Blair: Besides, some of us like towers.
Cocoanut Koala: well - i think that on azure islands, everybody does pretty much as they wish UNLESS someone complains
You: but those rules, and the request, not rule, not to build RIGHT SMACK on the property line helps a lot -- nothing causes anger than having a build RIGHT ON you like that
Cocoanut Koala: then the ordinance can be dragged out
Midtown Bienenstich: I've noticed that only the Azure Island and Dreamland have some type of "written" building law.
Cocoanut Koala: yes, they have that rule too in Azure Islands
Cocoanut Koala: i have lived there quite some time and have never heard of a problem of any kind
Midtown Bienenstich: All other sims that have zoning, are decided by usually at the discretion of one person.
Cocoanut Koala: people are pretty willing to live and let live within the loose rules
You: Dreamland has the most complex, with things I don't get like "no build higher than it is 1.5 times the distance from the property line etc"
Midtown Bienenstich: examples, are Slate and Boardman
You: no one obeys them and everyone bitches about them
Cocoanut Koala: no bitching in azure that i know of
Cocoanut Koala: i may have the rules on a notecard somewhere
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* although these resemble RL covenants
You: Well Midtown, if you have Barnes and Ingrid build just about everything in the sim, yoiu don't hvae to worry about zoning and codes
You: that doesn't scale tho
Midtown Bienenstich: I think the Azures are highly uniform and controlled.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Midtown Bienenstich: right .. Provoky.
Midtown Bienenstich: like I said.
Midtown Bienenstich: usually at the authority of one person.
You: I lived in Azures for awhile and I had neighbours unhappy if a house was even 16m from their house, but Adam parcelled lots with no buffers between them
Midtown Bienenstich: in this case two.. but you get the point.
Cocoanut Koala: "the basic frules for residents in this sim are:
Cocoanut Koala: -no commercial orientated builds (sic)
Cocoanut Koala: - no clubs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So... what I *think* that will happen... is that people will have a new option for "covenant abuse report"
Cocoanut Koala: 0no builds which dramantically lower framerates (either client or server)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and somehow two things might happen:
You: what I find is that people will obey rules if they are 1) simple 2) accessible 3) always available and 4) they are properly informed of them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a) group members agree on the "covenant abuse report"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) Lindens will enforce them
You: when they get mad is when they are 1) complicated 2) too long and hard to find 3) not visible 4) not always put out, or subject to arbitrary changes
Midtown Bienenstich: but, I doubt the Lindens want more "work"
Barbarra Blair: Which is what the Lindens don't want to do
Cocoanut Koala: - buildings must not be higher than the width of your plot, and 4 meter distance from property line
You: So they tell us we will get the tools to do this
Cocoanut Koala: sky building above 500 meters
You: but I am fearful of what they will do, given what they did with tools so far
Cocoanut Koala: build within good taste (no plywood box homes , crashed space ship) defined by a group officer
Midtown Bienenstich: Well, has anyone had access to the workings of Blumfield?
You: well I put that under a rule called "be considerate of your neighbours"
Cocoanut Koala: well my roomie has his space hub on there and no one has yelled
Cocoanut Koala: ok that is all . . .
Cocoanut Koala: *hushes up*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And what if you aren't, prokofy?
Justice Soothsayer: Lindens might empower the "group" to be the enforcer of convenants
Midtown Bienenstich: The entire design and group function of that sim is odd, and it was made to test zoning.
You: if someone builds a metal junk yard in a beautiful area and I have tenants complaint about that tenant, I say, "could you change that? it's bothering people"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How would that work, Justice?
You: well what I wonder about that -- will this group have th epower to return my prims on my own land or only prims on group land?
Tom Bukowski: that's sort of what happened with the whole blue note thing
Cocoanut Koala: the lindens don't have to enforce anything, if the group tools, like, can vote on a member
You: Philip made it seem that this group over-arches other individuals and groups by being a sim-wide association of sorts
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's my question, Prokofy.
Justice Soothsayer: Could be by majority vote of the group; could be that the group might delegate the power to one or more members
Barbarra Blair: WE know how well that works--"would you please remove the impeach Bush sign?"
Cocoanut Koala: then you vote him out of group, and automatically he goes off the land
You: well we know how majorities and even vocal minorities can impose horrid group-think in SL, I wonder about that
Cocoanut Koala: yes
Barbarra Blair: That is what nearly wrecked Darkwood
Cocoanut Koala: I have defined how it is being done, and how it can be done - but not commented on whether or not that is good.
You: This is why I'm not in love with groups like Beth Noveck is in love with groups.
You: No need to get excessively celebratory of groups.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. So if I understand correctly... the new group tools will have a "vote to empower member" option... someone flags a "covenant abuse report"... then you vote on a member to do something about that... this guy gets temporary God mode for returning prims
You: Law should be above groups.
Cocoanut Koala: i'm just guessing, gwyn
You: well Gwyn we don't know
Tom Bukowski: k folks, I'm sorry I gotta run, but ty for having this discussion Prok and maybe I'll try to do a follow up in a week or two - this is a really interesting and important topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes me too, Cocoanut
Tom Bukowski: cu all later!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Tom
You: pres son this blue cube here and read what Philip said in this interview
You: now I asked about this in the TH
Justice Soothsayer: we dontknow, but we certainly can propose some ideas
You: and got all kinds of New-Speak from the Lindens
Cocoanut Koala: i fear these ideas will be proposed ONTO us
You: like "we will build the tools to empower groups to effect change"
Cocoanut Koala: perhaps from democracy island
Gwyneth Llewelyn: PL: "It would also give owning communities or initial sim owners the ability to return objects, alter terrain or otherwise control the sim as needed."
You: and I was like "uh-oh"
Midtown Bienenstich: I think the Lindens are preparing something .. somethingbig.
Midtown Bienenstich: obviously zoning..
You: yes I'm going to be Fear Uncertainty Doubt incarnate on this big-time
You: : )
Cocoanut Koala: i fear that some residents are in on it, and its not us
Cocoanut Koala: I'm not normally a paranoid person
Cocoanut Koala: but I'm sort of starting to be
Midtown Bienenstich: but it's like they are determined to change the hierarchy of sl.
You: well Coco, I fear that Democracy Island is the brain trust for this brainiac thing just to be paranoid about it
Barbarra Blair: But really, those sort of tools are mostly there already.
You: and I see no evidence of Lindens CONSULTING with the people who really DO GROUPS
You: instead of those who THINK groups
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes on Estate Tools, Barbarra.
You: and make closed democacy islands
Barbarra Blair: For any landowner.
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is on the verge of revolution! :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Barbarra Blair: SL is always revolting....
You: For me, the bigger question is: what happens to land where people don't covenant, and don't go into this forced-march? Is it declared a Badlands?
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Cocoanut Koala: it ALREADY IS! Prok!
You: If so, fine, all my rentals will bei n this Badlands lol
Barbarra Blair: Most people won't do it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll skip the revolutionary thoughts for now, I'm more worried about the concept of "empowering someone" to return prims on other's land
You: yes Gwyn can that be what it means?
Barbarra Blair: Me too.
You: did you see that as what it means?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's the way I read it
Cocoanut Koala: well, but if they bought INTO that, Gwyn, and agreed to it . . .?
Barbarra Blair: That would be a real headache.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: that seems to fly against the whole "laissez Lazarus" ethic of the Lindens
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes and no Cocoanut
Barbarra Blair: Why woul I agree to taht?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suppose that a group agrees on the covenant.
You: "Lazarus-faire"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now a guy is empowered to solve an issue
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: while he has God mode, he returns prims by mistake
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "oops" he goes
You: I can't BELIEVE the Lindens are going to get into content like that, empowering people to judge and return content
You: BUT
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next the group votes again to revoke God mode
Barbarra Blair: So what if I'm in the group, but I'm not builing on group land?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and empower someone else to fix the stuff
You: they can DELEGATE groups to do that and count on their little vicious fanboyz to police for them?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: this new guy, as vengeance, bans the first offender
Barbarra Blair: anyhow, it's confusing, and seems prone to abuse
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and so on :P
You: yes
You: confusing and prone to abuse thank you
Gwyneth Llewelyn echoes Prokofy & Barbarra
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i can see that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worse
You: How far along are they on that?
An object named Object owned by Prokofy Neva gave you Philip on Zoning and Group Tools.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes Prokofy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How many people did they ask for opinions?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How thorough did they think about it?
Cocoanut Koala: and
You: his quote says "with unanimous approval"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nobody at the Community Roundtable was available to explain
Cocoanut Koala: WHO gave them opinions anyway, and they listened
Cocoanut Koala: I'm thinking we should be preemptive
You: so what happens if one of the unanimous sells out from the group to a newcomer who won't go along?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed Cocoanut. Who?
Cocoanut Koala: and give our opinions whether asked for them or not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it, Prokofy! What then?
Barbarra Blair: Or do you have to have approval to sell your land?
You: Gwyn was this zoning and tools stuff discussed on the Community list?
You: the one I'm banned from lol?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It certainly was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll re-send it to you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But mostly ignored
You: so what was said?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, no answers, prokofy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just a few questions from me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also asked Robin on email
You: well Gwyn we could ask Pathfinder or one of the more higher ups to give a theme-based communityi meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Still no answer
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
You: like they did on Blumfield
You: to discuss precisely this issue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I asked Robin for that as well :P
Midtown Bienenstich: when
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Jesse today
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear
Cocoanut Koala: what ? Blumfield was allowed to express their view?
You: well Jesse was the one telling me New-Speak
Cocoanut Koala: on their sim?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "allowed to express" yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Cocoanut Koala: but then told no
You: "we will give residents the tools to empower them to affect change"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
Cocoanut Koala: well if he said TOOLS
You: yeesh
Cocoanut Koala: that means from democracy island!
You: all this wierd better worldism stuff
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cocoanut: what Path told the Blumfielders: "it was just a marketing ploy"
You: well Coco I'd like not to be paranoid about this
Cocoanut Koala: so would I, haha
Midtown Bienenstich: marketing ploy?
You: but when Hiro tells me arrogantly on my blog that he is building "tools for democracy" that I don't nee dto be involved in, I have to worry lol
Midtown Bienenstich: what will happen to Blumfield then?
You: yes he did indeed say that Midtown
You: he said in February, they are on their own
You: it was a marketing test
You: he didn't say "ploy"
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, of course it was.
You: but obviously it was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: welllll yes Midtown — the Blumfielders can buy their land in mid-Feb, but then it'll be like "regular mainland"
You: I have the transcript
You: basically he was less than helpful
Cocoanut Koala: yes, and as a builder for Blumfield, I was very distressed that they would not allow zoning in such an obvious place
Midtown Bienenstich: I talked to a Linden about it.
You: well Pathfinder was also blathering about "we will give residents the tools to empower them to affect change"
You: and I was like
Midtown Bienenstich: That, was nothing short of a stupidity.
You: "Um, is there a tool called "llremoveLazarussign["
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Barbarra Blair: like what, a gun that demolishes neon signs or somehting?
You: what if Laz comes in there and puts up a sign?
Midtown Bienenstich: Blumfield needed a few more "test:
Barbarra Blair: could I kill glowing trees?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Personally I'm not paranoid enough, as you know, but I'm always afraid of "bad implementation" of technological thingies without proper previous discussion, and only "after-the-fact" fixes...
You: yes yes
You: so let's be practical here
You: can we a) ask the Lindens to have a community meeting just on this topic
Midtown Bienenstich: for example, do shops sell more in places that are fully residential and occupied by newbies?
You: b) make sure those with a stake in it who run communities already zoned come to it
Midtown Bienenstich: a lot and a lot.
You: c) make up a white paper on what we'd like to see in such tools so as not to be OBE'd
You: I have my paper on the 24 functions
Cocoanut Koala: OBE'd?
You: they usually ignore that
Barbarra Blair: And what is the difference between a shop and a model home, for example?
You: Over Taken By Events
You: OBE'd
You: Hi Anita
Cocoanut Koala: I agree with a, b, and c.
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, Hi
You: this blue cube here has an interview with Philip
You: in which he talks about the zoning and tools we're trying to figure out here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh Prokofy, that sounds perfect
You: so touch it and get it
Anita Langdon: Hello everyone
You: from Metaverse Messenger at www.metaversemessenger.com if you want to see the whole story
Midtown Bienenstich: we definetly have to bring this up at two hall.
You: but I put the bits about the zoning here in the box
Midtown Bienenstich: *town
Barbarra Blair: phone afk
You: well town halls are madness
You: did you see the other day?
Midtown Bienenstich: I know.
You: it was the zooiest I've seen
Midtown Bienenstich: but, they are effective.
Midtown Bienenstich: yesl, lol.
You: imagine a meeting, where Robin has to shout "Give Prokofy a turn, he has the right to speak"
Midtown Bienenstich: more like a City Hall.
You: that says it all ROFL
Cocoanut Koala: that was fun at first, then got headachy
You: yes yes City not Town
Midtown Bienenstich: I think we had, not-so-bright residents wasting time.
Midtown Bienenstich: that Anshe.
Justice Soothsayer: maybe an organized forum w speakers, then open mike
You: well these Lindens themselves are to blame for not running the speaker's box correctly
Justice Soothsayer: like a debate, followed by questions
Anita Langdon: yes I had to reread the meeting afterwards to get anything of it
Midtown Bienenstich: what a waste of Linden-time >.<
You: they let a stupid spamming tool from Thinkers -- sorry Gwyn -- run their lives
You: when they could be running it manually as humans and policing it
Cocoanut Koala: that sounds good, justice!
Midtown Bienenstich: despite the madness, people were informed.
Midtown Bienenstich: of what?/.. I dont know
You: yes I think a panel discussion works great, with 3-4 speakers
You: I have done this at Gilded Cage
You: so you have a lInden speak, then mabe a few residents
Justice Soothsayer: panel is good, but only if you allow some time for open discussion afterwords
You: then open Q and A
You: well we always do
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, organization
You: what would be the point of a panel among yourselves?
You: this isn't SLOG
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They seem to be good at managing 10-15 people in a meeting, but not 80
Cocoanut Koala: and one of us could speak with the ideas we have formulated
Cocoanut Koala: and others who may have prepared.
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, I have never seen so many people gathered anywhwre.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol, my client stopped rezzing people after 50
You: Gwyn has anyone done any papers on communities in SL? I mean short ones, not the voluminous records of Neualtenberg -- or is there a short form of Nberg?
You: and Slate?
Justice Soothsayer: Prok, i dont want to open the democracy island can-of-worms, but i've been involved in the Supreme Court build with the idea that it could be a forum for discussion of SL governance issues.
You: well I'll be sure to fight that hammer and tong Justice
Midtown Bienenstich: I am a Slate Resident
You: it has no legitimacy
Midtown Bienenstich: I have a home in Slate.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe not that I know about, prokofy.
Cocoanut Koala: justice - i am a member of democracy island, but no one has ever told me anything
Cocoanut Koala: really
You: like I said you can't just plunk down a court and declare yourself a justice and say you'll run my disputes for me
Cocoanut Koala: Are there plans there to come up withthese tools to handle group zoning?
You: Justices are usually elected or appointed in RL, not just people who chose a name out of a list
Midtown Bienenstich: and in Slate, we all get along.. but everything's done by a single person.
You: Yes let's clarify the facts here
Justice Soothsayer: never intended to do so - just building a place for the dicussions
Cocoanut Koala: ok good
Midtown Bienenstich: Indeed, we don't even "want" to have a democracy.
You: has Democracy Island been in talks, formal or informal, with the Lindens, about reforming the group tools?
Cocoanut Koala: true, midtown, that's why azure islands works
Cocoanut Koala: better put, prok
You: well um "just a place for discussion" with funding, Lindens, a closed island, etc. is a statement all itself
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would seriously like to hear an official answer on that question as well, Prokofy.
Cocoanut Koala: seconded
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope to extract it on Saturday ;)
Midtown Bienenstich: Isn't there a "Grand Opening" tommorrow?
You: Let me paste to you the official answer I got from Robin about DI
You: brb
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is, Midtown
Gwyneth Llewelyn: However
Cocoanut Koala: good, cause i can't be there for the saturday stuff
Midtown Bienenstich: Yep, see ya there Gwyn :)
Cocoanut Koala: I want to know EXACTLY what they are planning for us.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have to admit that most people involved at the Democracy Island project only know about a "fragmented" version of it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it Cocoanut
Cocoanut Koala: understood
Midtown Bienenstich: I think it's a laser weapon that will enslave us all ..
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's the LEAST we can ASK!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Midtown
Midtown Bienenstich: Project LinDAD
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What it *started* with, was simply a college semester assignment
You: first, I want to seek immunity from prosecution from Justice and other AR'ers for disclosure of a convo from a Linden
Cocoanut Koala: actually it's me - i have a new dollar bananaphone avatar I plan to send you all mad with
Midtown Bienenstich: LinDEAD
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can share the things that I was told, if you wish....
You: I want the Monica defense here first before disclosure
Cocoanut Koala: yes
You: Monica defense in place then?
Cocoanut Koala: huh?
You: for non-Americans Monica being you know, Monica Lewinsky and all that
You: who sought immunity form prosecution etc
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Midtown Bienenstich: ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, *that* Monica :)
Justice Soothsayer: i'm no prosecutor
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Midtown Bienenstich is effectively lost.
Cocoanut Koala: i'm american and i don't get the allusion, but anyway . . .
Barbarra Blair: I'm so used to being lost that it feels normal.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww lol
Midtown Bienenstich: Okay, can we talk about multi-sim sales?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway — so far, I've heard that Democracy Island is "three" different projects ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
Cocoanut Koala: brb need ice
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's a good one
Barbarra Blair: I don't see the difference with what happens already.
Barbarra Blair: The same people buy up all the auctions.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither do I, unless I'm really completely narrow-sighted
Midtown Bienenstich: nope, it's not that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and too surprised at seeing people interested in buying *40* sims at a time!
Midtown Bienenstich: it's that the Lindens announce prokects in Linden speak.
Barbarra Blair: 40 good grief.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But 10 sims at a time, yes, Anshe will like it!
You: Democracy Island is a private project to support New York Law Schools research efforts in the intersection of real life civics and virtual space as a medium. It's really their call if they want Nota Bene to be part of their project.
Midtown Bienenstich: It's gojng to be zoning!
You: ok there's the quote from Robin
Midtown Bienenstich: ..and that's all they tell us.
Barbarra Blair: But that is a private Island.
You: as part of a longer letter answering my Abuse Report on Zarf for running a high profile business as a Linden alt
Midtown Bienenstich: to make us think and have discussions.. they add something..
Midtown Bienenstich: like "covenants"
You: so DI is a "private project"
You: that can make its own "calls" as to whom they involve
You: and all that's well and good
Barbarra Blair: So can any land owner.
You: but
You: unanswered
You: is the issue of whether their theory of groups, their notions of tools, their concept of land, etc. is informing the LL process of reform
Cocoanut Koala: back
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I tell you what was *told* me about Democracy Island, two months ago?
You: these things are informal
You: ok
Barbarra Blair: go Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Cocoanut Koala: well, I am especially interested if they plan to do tools regarding zoning
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a) it's a semester assignment for NYLS students
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, perhaps I"m thinking of city zoning.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for them to think about "tools" to help along public meetings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: held my town halls
You: yes a number of the members -- but not all! -- have the last name "Democracy" as part of that school project
Midtown Bienenstich: I think LL has another plan.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: by RL town halls
Khamon Fate wonders if he's gone bonkers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was a)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Two months ago
Midtown Bienenstich: or atl least will find another use for zoning, we can't think of yet.
You: hi Khamon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There was *nothing* on Democracy Island
You: well but read the media reports
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although the sim had been around for some 6 months.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So here comes b)
You: SNOOPY who is the SL Future Salon chairman and exec dir or staff or whatever of accelerating.org
You: gushed to the media that "Everyone is buying an island now"
Midtown Bienenstich: Hi
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) since college kids simply don't have experience on running complex projects in SL anyway
You: by which he means that Beth's grant from Florida State or whatever bought them the island at non-profit rates, and they made this thing
Khamon Fate: hallo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: they (NYLS) brought "external consultants"
You: well Gwyn it's not just college tho
You: it has Hiro!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that'll be c) hehe
Cocoanut Koala: hiya khamon
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, Tallahassee.
Khamon Fate: hey coco
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) was mostly Satchmo Prototype and his team
You: Hiro who is like Al Gore who is responsible for the "initiative for the creeation of the Internet" -- but of course we all know that a) Al didn't mean that and b) he wasn't the only one
You: so Hiro is like that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: who built some nifty things like: notecard givers
You: how does Satchmo relate to their thing?
Barbarra Blair: oh please
Gwyneth Llewelyn: According to Satchmo himself
You: notecard givers?
You: but we had that already?
You: yages ago
Gwyneth Llewelyn: he was just "contracted" to do what the college kids should have been doing all the time
Khamon Fate: hi barbarra you can never have enough Rs
You: in fact I take pride in being the first to point out that notedcard TAKER was actually the more revolutionary product
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, well, I'm being mean: "complex" notecard givers
You: you mean Satchmo's idea was to give them notecard givers???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh, like infoNet
Barbarra Blair: I guess they'll be building rotating stuff next
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nooo lol
You: oh across sims?
Cocoanut Koala: who contracted him?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: NYLS
You: lol Barbarra!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: through Jerry, I suppose
Cocoanut Koala: but - then - is he in the developer's directory?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh sure
You: BUY DEMOCRACY NOW!! EARN LINDEN $$$$$ CAMP HERE!!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Satchmo has a RL company
Gwyneth Llewelyn: just for doing SL things
You: well let's call him here?
Cocoanut Koala: notecard givers, i thought we had that already
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was a "metaphor" lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: seems I'm not so good at that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
Cocoanut Koala: metaphor for what, actually?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point is...
You: he's not online tho
You: we did
You: but I will ask him
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Satchmo told me...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Deocracy Island was something sold to a town hall in the NY state
You: and notecard TAKERS is what these people need to grasp a little better ROFL
Barbarra Blair thinks it was a hyperbole, which is her own specialty
You: hehe barbarra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Albany if I'm not mistaken names (sorry, I'm not an expert in US geography)
You: well Gwyn you're the one boosting Satchmo and Democracy on my blog, despite your rolling of eyes here
Cocoanut Koala: ok, well i dont get it, but no worries
You: so please speak in defense
Cocoanut Koala: go on
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, what thecity council was looking for...
Midtown Bienenstich wonders if it's so hard for LL to put alternate colors for chat on screen, that way.. our eyes can differentiate.
You: Albany?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: was a 3d environment
You: wait a second
You: are you confusing Tom's project?
You: Tom's park project
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that they would use to show citizens what they were planning to implement
You: is not a city hall
You: it's just a park
You: and one community board in the city of New York
You: in Queens or something
You: that has this land out by the airport
You: so he is helping to design it "using" SL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I'm pretty sure it was Democracy Island, and related to a city in the NY state
Barbarra Blair: Well, that's cool, but has nothing to do with zoning or governemtn--no new tools needed.
Justice Soothsayer: May I interject for a moment, Gweneth?
You: community boards themselves being controversial creatures in NYC
Midtown Bienenstich: you mean like a model?
You: not to be confused with city council etc
Khamon Fate: dim ark grey government buildings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a model, yes
You: hehe Khamon
Khamon Fate: why would anyone build a government building in sl
You: justice you don't ask permission to speak in a virtual world, you just speak and people scroll it
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Khamon Fate: oh my look at the time
Barbarra Blair: brb
You: you may proceed to the bench counsellor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a model, with a way for citizens to log in, and see what was going to be proposed, get notecards with info, leave suggestions, participate in meetings
Midtown Bienenstich made one ¬¬
Khamon Fate: i gotta be, see y'all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol
Justice Soothsayer: i dont want to ruin Gwenyth;s train of thought
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah well
You: bye Khamon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was Democracy Island 2 months ago
Khamon Fate is offline
Cocoanut Koala: well that sounds like it has nothing to do with us
Justice Soothsayer: but the park project is one of the things on democracy island
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We come now to c)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed it is
Cocoanut Koala: *she says, not worry8ng about interrupting her train of thought*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: While we were at b)
You: well Gwyn can you explain at what point DI morphed from this course in this B-grade law school into the center of our world here with Satchmo and Hiro and stuff lol?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I did a similar presentation in my country
Justice Soothsayer: because government requires feedback from citizens about things like park design
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to see the feedback I got
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy — that is c)
You: oh ok stay on b sorry
You: go ahead
Gwyneth Llewelyn: About which I'm utterly confused about!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I finish with b
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since when we stepped to c)
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I lost all references :(
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suddenly Hiro is there
You: at c or b?
Midtown Bienenstich: maybe a?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suddenly a replica of the US Supreme Court is there
Gwyneth Llewelyn: at c)
You: yes well Justice can tell us how that sprang full blow from the head of Zeus here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) *made sense* to me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, please, Justice.
Cherry Mason is offline
You: Justice how did you come in to this thingie?
Justice Soothsayer: Well, I;'m responsible for the Supreme Court build as it was my idea
Justice Soothsayer: I heard about Democracy Island from some of the PR
You: well Justice
Justice Soothsayer: I wanted to have a Supreme Court replica on *my* land as a place for students to discuss legal issues online
You: let me give an analogy to start the ball rolling here
Justice Soothsayer: but found it was too "expensive" in prims, land, etc. to do so myself
You: By day, I pay rent and living HUD housing
You: by night I tier a huge rentals empire LOL
You: so
You: is your thing kinda like that?
You: : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Justice Soothsayer: so I suggested that a Supreme Court build would be an interesting forum for conversations about SL governance
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
You: why did you take it off "my land"
Justice Soothsayer: I met with Ichiro Tokugawa who built the UN replica for the Thomas Barnett speech
You: is this a kinder form dictates function thing?
Justice Soothsayer: He adivsed it would never fit on my measly 4096 parcel
You: another modest fellow yes
You: I've had many a tangle with him on that subject.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
You: well no, I find that Supreme Courts need at least 8192 m2 IMHO
Justice Soothsayer: so SNOOPY offered the space on Democracy Island for i
You: third circuit courts might fit on a 4096 tho
Justice Soothsayer: *it
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
You: Vyshinsky found that 3-person Troikas could fit on the back of a train car in 3rd class.
Justice Soothsayer: its NOT an effort to impose US or any other kind of law on SL
You: well why the build then?
You: just to give it gravitas?
You: does it have no "message"?
Cocoanut Koala: what is it for?
Barbarra Blair pictures a western courthouse with a hanging judge on 1024 m2
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, may I safely assume that this has nothing to do with what Democracy Island was "planned" to be on either Phase A or Phase B?
You: Barbarra you are too hilarious tonight lol
Justice Soothsayer: certainly to provide some gravitas, a "Cool factor"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Barbarra, yes, you're inspired :)
You: well the cool factor then rules my world, dude and I get er well
You: *concerned*
You: the much ballyhooed Metaverse Superior Court just disappeared
Justice Soothsayer: at the same time, lots of folks have been talking about SL governance issues
You: they are MIA
You: I filed 2 inquiries about disputes and suits with them
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, has anyone heard Hank Ramos before?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So Justice, since you clearly joined the project on Phase c), what exactly were you told about Democracy Island?
Justice Soothsayer: and I think the folks who have been building on Democracy Island are interested in those issues as well
You: well the problem is that such high-profile, high-media saturation coverage, high-funded projects have a way of taking over, without real democratic participation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And before what, Midtown?
You: that's my concern
Justice Soothsayer: I dont believe there is a planned "c)", as it is very ad hoc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ack.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: really???
You: well SNOOPY posted about how it was " work in progress"
Barbarra Blair: The thing is, that sounds like a temporary project.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Somehow that sounds even more frightening!
Cocoanut Koala: I want to know
Justice Soothsayer: i suppose NYU is grant funded, and grants run out sometime
Cocoanut Koala: WHAT is democracy Island intending to do to us, the residents?
You: but look, Beth Noveck chairs the SOP each year, which is funded by LL, it is the most prestigious cconference in the game and cyber law business
Barbarra Blair: nothing for us.
You: you can't tell me that the people whom LL funds are somehow just one more island
Cocoanut Koala: TO us, I asked?
Barbarra Blair: I can't see that it affects me.
Justice Soothsayer: i dont believe there is any nefarious plan to do anything TO us
You: so basicalyl Justice you just networked and got yourself a scarce berth here on this demo sim
Cocoanut Koala: i didn't say it was nefarious
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe :)
You: we are just choads and feebs for not networking with the same rigour
Midtown Bienenstich: LInDEAD.
Cocoanut Koala: nonetheless, it may be imposed ON us, thus done TO us
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: Midtown what does LindDEAD mean?
Midtown Bienenstich: watch, when you all least expect it.. zap!
Midtown Bienenstich: My theory on the happenings at Democracy Island.
Justice Soothsayer: i'd like to see it used as a place for civil discussions about SL governance issues, such as the forum on zoning we talked about earlier
You: is that like: llCoOpt(var GoodIdea)
Cocoanut Koala: me too, justice
Cocoanut Koala: i just don't get that vibe
Gwyneth Llewelyn *is confused*
You: hmm Justice well when I have those discussions all the time or when others do, they just like to get the dwell traffic
You: *shrugs*
You: like I wouldn't go to give you all traffic on that to be honest
You: : )
You: seroiusly
You: it has such a profile, and is so esoteric and elite, that it has an impact
You: and it is being done not as some college class
Justice Soothsayer: seriously, the traffic issue hasnt come up at ALL in any conversations with anyone involved in the DI project
Cocoanut Koala: I get the vibe thjat it started out as a nyls kind of thing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, from a) — a student's assignment, to b) — a project to be sold to city councils to help them doing models of proposed changes in their cities, we come to c) ad-hoc projects without any purpose or plan?
You: but as something begging for pride of place here
Cocoanut Koala: but it has turned into something grander
Cocoanut Koala: that will affect all of us, without our being necessarily involved
You: Justice: try camp chairs
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Traffic will be eliminated anyway :)
You: LOl
You: oh when?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Midtown Bienenstich: she meant DI
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just Robin's suggestion
Barbarra Blair: You know, It stikes me that what is really going on here is that the Lindens are trying to make some corporate sales.
You: did you hear that for a fact?
You: please do not move from that chair Gwyn and keep dwelling up my land here
Justice Soothsayer: my point, prok, is that I don't think anyone is building anythin gon Democracy Island to generate traffic
Cocoanut Koala: i agree barbarra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe prokofy, I'll be glad to do that :)
Cocoanut Koala: i just fear that
Cocoanut Koala: it will turn into this other,
You: Justice I think you're missing the humour, nm
Cocoanut Koala: with blessings from lindens
You: Barbarra is this related to the "add a continent to my shopping cart" they are starting soon?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Barbarra Blair: Sure.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
You: I think so too.
Cocoanut Koala: i figure that, too, but it that add a continent has to be also for Nexus
Cocoanut Koala: and similar
You: The IBM guy, the Berkman Center at Harvard, the MSN guy -- all these are SOP regulars -- they will all want sims, and 40 will be the starting point
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, come on, guys.... if Democracy island has no real "project" behind it, how can it be "something" to show off interested/potential customers??
You: \they have the budgets
Barbarra Blair: Like, say, new sims names Blockbusters and Ronald McDonald land.
Midtown Bienenstich: Well, the Lindens (like any corporation) will always seek new and profitable business oppurtunities.
You: hahahahah
You: actually I don't think so
You: it will be more like Harvardland and BenandJerryLand
You: they will be lefty and trendy and causey-y
You: to fit the Better World motif
You: not gross commercialism and tacky products
Cocoanut Koala: it will be eggy
You: what did eggy say?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But this first attempt at "Better World" shows a frightening lack of structure!
Cocoanut Koala: saying, "Ok guys, we all hate bush and we hate people who like bush
You: someone was iming me about that
Midtown Bienenstich: If this does occur.
Cocoanut Koala: he said that MEANING IT
Midtown Bienenstich: then it will be only a breathe away.
You: well Gwyn Robin's defense is that it's a private project
You: who are WE to ask it to have structure?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Prokofy
Midtown Bienenstich: for a new company releasing an alternative to SL.
You: we only work here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in my dictionary
Gwyneth Llewelyn: projects have *structure*
Cocoanut Koala: me, i was im'ing you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, what is being "sold" in Democracy island?
You: I guess I just don't like elite projects with huge media impact to skip steps and step on indigenous processes and groups here
Cocoanut Koala: well IS it a private project?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice buildings? But we have them all over the place
You: it's like the World Bank coming in and putting in a dam
Cocoanut Koala: It CANT BE! IM in it!
Barbarra Blair: Well, if General Motors or BMW invests in an island, maybe they'll fix vehicles.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cocoanut — it was, during phase a) certainly
You: first, fix the servers
You: I'd like to see something other than grey squares when I fly around
Midtown Bienenstich: first, upgrade the complete architecture.
You: yes
Midtown Bienenstich: *server
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Midtown :)
You: yes fix the whole thing then poish it
Barbarra Blair: I'd like to see something besides for sale signs.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dangerous thoughts there :)
Midtown Bienenstich: But I think I've said this before.
You: *polish it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You did, yes :)
Midtown Bienenstich: the day a tryly worthy competitive metaverse is launched.
Midtown Bienenstich: we will have Havok3 by sunset )/
Midtown Bienenstich: :/
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not under the current business model of LL, Midtown
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we're drifting off-topic
Cocoanut Koala: Ok, so about the tools for land, are we agreed to that a b and c prok said earlier?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, Cocoanut
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm definitely all in favour
Cocoanut Koala: i say we vote on that, so as to get started on it
Cocoanut Koala: somebody else write it besides me, of course , lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So far, I pressed those points on emails to Robin, and a chat with Jesse
Cocoanut Koala: hiya rocks!
Midtown Bienenstich: for what Gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I like the whitebook idea
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i could use one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, scroll back, Midtown. Prokofy suggested a three-point approach for dealing with the zoning issues.
Cocoanut Koala: what were those three points, prok?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll scroll back... Prok seems to be in IM hell... and copy & paste again
Cocoanut Koala: a. ask for a city hall meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah thank you Cocoanut
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
Cocoanut Koala: with (subhead) Justice's idea
Cocoanut Koala: of having speakers, followed by discussion
You: sorry I have customers complaining about boxes
Cocoanut Koala: point c was, a whitepaper about how we think it would work best, the tools
Midtown Bienenstich: I started the trend :{
Cocoanut Koala: and I forget what point b was
Midtown Bienenstich: lol, we are officially calling it City Hall!
Midtown Bienenstich: *:P
You: yes yes
You: City Hall not Town Hall
Midtown Bienenstich: hahaha!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy Neva: b) make sure those with a stake in it who run communities already zoned come to it
Cocoanut Koala: it was good whhatever it was,lol
You: it's now officially bureaucratic and pointless LOL
Cocoanut Koala: oh yes!
Cocoanut Koala: also good
Gwyneth Llewelyn: definitely good, yes.
Cocoanut Koala: so i suggest somebody make up a notion of group tools which would work
Cocoanut Koala: and we could all see it, and sign it (or suggest changes)
Cocoanut Koala: someone who knows a lot
Cocoanut Koala: something simple, which puts power in OUR hands
Cocoanut Koala: and concurrently, that would be in preparation for,
Cocoanut Koala: ask for the City hall
Midtown Bienenstich: well, what about getting some feedback from successfully zoned sims?
Cocoanut Koala: so that "residents will have imput on
Midtown Bienenstich: like from Nexus and Adam
Cocoanut Koala: good idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree totally.
Cocoanut Koala: people hate these things coming down from above.
Cocoanut Koala: "input on what the tools will be"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: May I propose a suggestion?
Cocoanut Koala: and - let's face it - those of us here LIVE it, and we KNOW more about what works and what doesn't.
You: normally it is done with community groups, then assemblies, then parliaments
Cocoanut Koala: voting
You: I do wonder what would be the way to have democracy in this electronic soup
Cocoanut Koala: polls
You: but the Lindens want to skip all that
Cocoanut Koala: i suggested that Yumi script one, lol
You: well it would be helpful if we could VOTE NO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since Prokofy is almost a swearword that you can't even mention in Mature land these days... could be concentrate our suggestions on you, Cocoanut? :)
Cocoanut Koala: that would be everywhere
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *we
Midtown Bienenstich: oh yeah, that's right.
Cocoanut Koala: hey, i'm a swearword too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Cocoanut Koala: well IN THE GAME voting
Midtown Bienenstich: we aren't a democracy :(
Cocoanut Koala: we CAN be
Cocoanut Koala: and why shouldn't we be?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well perhaps not as bad, we all know you're Prokofy's alt, Cocoanut :)
Barbarra Blair: Naw. Democracy is just a tool for griefing.
You: Justice,honestly, your disputes thingie appears in a world where we *do not have the right or ability to vote no* -- we are WORSE OFF than the Soviet Union.
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree with Blair..
Cocoanut Koala: well maybe i'm more idealistic
Cocoanut Koala: why just have a island that pays lip service to it, and yet isn't?
Midtown Bienenstich: Remember the basic foundation for a successful democratic nation!
Cocoanut Koala: even voting, while not as good as representative democracy, is better than
Barbarra Blair: hyperbole, remember?
Midtown Bienenstich: informed citizens..
Cocoanut Koala: the lindens deciding our future based on what their friends say
Midtown Bienenstich: and intelligent.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeah.
Midtown Bienenstich: not to be rude.
Midtown Bienenstich: but the bulk of our populous are newbies taht think it's just a cool 3D game.
Cocoanut Koala: i;m not in favor of the intellegensia running a society
Cocoanut Koala: i'm in favor of the common man running it
Midtown Bienenstich: hell, I could pay $50 L for their votes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Barbarra Blair: exactly
Cocoanut Koala: well, that's a whole other complex thing, how to do it
Cocoanut Koala: for now
Cocoanut Koala: the ideas we have going for this land thing
Cocoanut Koala: a, b, and c
Cocoanut Koala: are excellent
Barbarra Blair: Look at the most popular places list--ugly goes to the top most of the time.
Midtown Bienenstich: right.
Cocoanut Koala: this is a sort of tangent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I'm more in favour of having the common man/woman having the *opportunity* to run it ;)
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is divided .
Midtown Bienenstich: People that care.
Cocoanut Koala: for apll practical purposes, we are facing this land tools thing
Midtown Bienenstich: People that don;'t
You: What's most scary about this "no vote no" stuff is that Linden tekkies and principals JUSTIFY it in the name of "guiding" residents "toward more positive proposals" -- it's Orwellian.
Cocoanut Koala: (and won't require any messy voting or anything)
Cocoanut Koala: and the structure proposed here will work well
Cocoanut Koala: so , are we all here agreed on a-c?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: yes
Cocoanut Koala: me too
Midtown Bienenstich: yep
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i propose we let prok and gyneth draft the white paper
Cocoanut Koala: anyone second that?
Justice Soothsayer: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, a) and b) are rather easy to do, and can be done individually.
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, less work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: eek lol
Midtown Bienenstich: -- for us.
Cocoanut Koala: all in favor?
You: well in fact I'd like to see just one person to put up a resolution on the voting thingie saying: "we would like the tools changed to be able to vote no on any proposal"
Cocoanut Koala: prok
Barbarra Blair: I frequnelty wonder why the Linden's don't do some social experiements before making changes--which that could be proposed.
Cocoanut Koala: i'm talking about this now, though
Cocoanut Koala: trying to get through the land tools thing.
You: well Gwyn I can send you the thing about the 24 functions in the group to toggle and the ramifications
Gwyneth Llewelyn: To be honest, I can only see how it *might* work on a very limited basis
Cocoanut Koala: i just volunteereed you for the work, hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I'd prefer to see your 24 functions, prokofy.
Cocoanut Koala: ok - well white paper doesn't have to be prepared and agreed to by us
You: Barbarra: can we be sure they don't experiment? Without us knowing"?
Cocoanut Koala: until AFTER we get the meeting going!
You: Is Lazarus an experiment?
Cocoanut Koala: and suggest landowners to be on the speakers panel
Cocoanut Koala: Prok, Adam, Nexus
Cocoanut Koala: Anshe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully not, Prok :(
Cocoanut Koala: for example:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bob from Slate?
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, Prok kills the resolution'
You: why don't you want me on the speakers' panel?
Barbarra Blair: I tend to notice when I'm being jerked around.
Cocoanut Koala: dont know him, but if he's one, yes
Cocoanut Koala: anyone who is one
Rocks Diamond: :p
Midtown Bienenstich: I know Bob.
You: oh I can't file resolutions, I'm banned from the forums, and disenfranchised as a result
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nooo lol — the "hopefully not" was "Laz being an experiment!!!"
Cocoanut Koala: who runs large plots of land
You: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Hawk Lightcloud is online
Cocoanut Koala: OK: So who is going to ask for the town hall meeting? I suggest a delegation.
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Cocoanut Koala: Perhaps Justice,
Midtown Bienenstich: What about Ingersoll?
Cocoanut Koala: Ingrid would be good as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blue Burke? :D
Midtown Bienenstich: *Ingrid.
Midtown Bienenstich: and also JUro and Barnes
Justice Soothsayer: Folks, do we even need to ask for an official "town hall meeting" - why not just have one?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hiro Queso?
Midtown Bienenstich: they don't mind Prok, lol.
Cocoanut Koala: hey - not home builders
Cocoanut Koala: LAND RUNNERS
Cocoanut Koala: OK - whoever is going to be the delegation to
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: whoever is going to be the delegation to ask for the city hall
You: Justice of course we have them without any permission
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Socialist Utopian Communistic Democratic Republic of neualtenburg? ;)
Cocoanut Koala: would also have a list of people they propose for speakers.
You: but to get Lindens to schedule them and be in them
You: you have to get them
Midtown Bienenstich: well, people trust builders.
Midtown Bienenstich: um.
You: Five Lies in Five Words!
Cocoanut Koala: Each speaker would prepare their ideas of how the land tools should work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: NOT a bunch of philosophy, or arguing.
Midtown Bienenstich: Rock just committed suicide
You: Gosh I don't trust builders Midtown!
Midtown Bienenstich: *Rocks
Rocks Diamond: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol poor Rock!
Cocoanut Koala: Who would like to be on a commi8ttee to approach the lindens with the plan for city hall meeting?
Rocks Diamond: i fell off
Midtown Bienenstich: send Prok.
Cocoanut Koala: I would volunteer to be one of those
Justice Soothsayer: i'll be glad to help
You: well IL won't be on it
You: becuase then they'll ignore it
You: it should be Worthies like Gwyn
Midtown Bienenstich: yeah!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would also put more the emphasis of "stakeholders in SL": people that pay for huge tier to build communities.
Cocoanut Koala: ok, gwyn, me, who else?
Midtown Bienenstich: go Gywn!
You: bona fide SIC members
Midtown Bienenstich: ME@!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, i don't own land :(
Midtown Bienenstich: :D
You: well could you please get people who pay tier?
Rocks Diamond: me
You: ask Anita Langdom
Midtown Bienenstich: I'm known a bit.
You: who was just here
You: I mean lots of tier
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can talk to them, sure.
Cocoanut Koala: yes exactly, gywneth - because they have the EXPERIENCE
You: she may pay more tier than me not sure
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She does?
Cocoanut Koala: *sits back and rests*
You: she runs Langdon realty
Gwyneth Llewelyn: See — I don't even know half of them, prok!
Midtown Bienenstich: I will ask Anita
Midtown Bienenstich: :( -- fine.. just cause I'm a poor basic.
Midtown Bienenstich: IN fact.
Midtown Bienenstich: I wil see if I can bring her back here.
You: she is near me in a lot of areas so I cooperate with her and buy from her sometimes
You: she's up on the new continent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Midtown Bienenstich: I invited here firstplace.
You: well she left without saying anything not sure why
You: perhaps I was ranting about something : )
Cocoanut Koala: I meant - LARGE LANDOWNERS for the PANEL OF SPEAKERS
Midtown Bienenstich: She told me she was lost on the discussion of Dmo-ISla
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
Cocoanut Koala: not for the COMMITTE TO APPROACH the LINDENS about the CITY HALL.
Midtown Bienenstich: *Demo Island
You: Coco I can be on the panel, I just didn't want to beo n the committee to APPROACH
Cocoanut Koala: right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah ok ok
Cocoanut Koala: exaactly
You: Justice, dude, you already have a huge high-profile thingie
Barbarra Blair: I wonder if Forsythia Wishbringer would have some ideas.
Cocoanut Koala: so, who would like to approach?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: justice would be good
Justice Soothsayer: be glad to
Cocoanut Koala: great!
You: maybe just stay with that?
Cocoanut Koala: gwynetth, help him on that?
Midtown Bienenstich: well, I want to be part of the team
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure
You: well but I don't want DI getting intertwined with an effort designed to COUNTERACT DI
You: sorry but there it is
Cocoanut Koala: midtown too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, I already did an ad hoc request anyway.
Cocoanut Koala: midtown could be on the request thingie
Midtown Bienenstich: Can I fetch coffee n' stufff?
You: I would like people who pay tier, organize communities, run groups
Cocoanut Koala: the more the better
You: not peeopl who TALK ABUT this and wish to do it for others without their participation
You: sorry but there it is
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: then we will leave it up to you three to plan and do yuour approach however you see fit
You: it's not about fetching coffee
Cocoanut Koala: then - the idea would be , major landowners, sellers, renters, leasers, could
Midtown Bienenstich: that's fine, it was only a joke.
Cocoanut Koala: ask to be on panel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Cocoanut :) I think yours was the only card I didn't have, hehe
Midtown Bienenstich: I am taling to Anita though.
You: you'd have to put a Lindenon the panel too
Cocoanut Koala: happy to have yours!
Cocoanut Koala: to GIVE THEIR IDEAS for the BEST GROUP TOOLS plan to handle ZONING.
Cocoanut Koala: well yes a linden, too.
Midtown Bienenstich: wait!
Midtown Bienenstich: guys, Khamon!
You: or maybe not?
Cocoanut Koala: With each panel member having a limited speak time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right — Governor Linden, who owns the most land among the Lindens, LOL
Cocoanut Koala: Linden, yes.
You: yes Khamon is good he has been in this for a long time
You: in several communities
Cocoanut Koala: Put the linden last on the speakers.
You: yes invite Governor Linden lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khamon, surely, yes!
Cocoanut Koala: people must hear that.
Cocoanut Koala: must hear from lindens
You: let's get some accountability from this guy
Barbarra Blair: gotta run--bye guyes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *girl :)
Cocoanut Koala: whichever linden is most involved with the new idea for group tools for zoning.
You: let's ask him if he plans to sell off his roadside to RL advertisers
You: bye thanks for coming!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Cocoanut — that's probably either Philip or Robin :P
Cocoanut Koala: OK, so what have we not covered?
You: well let's stay on that for a minute
You: WHICH linden?
You: Lee Linden is the Concierge
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no no
You: he deals with islands and landowners
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lee — NEVER
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: lket them decide their own linden
You: yeah I know Gwyn
Cocoanut Koala: of course.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
You: but sometimes the SOURCE of the problem should be invited into the dialogue
You: I know I know
You: : )
You: Lee rules my world : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like your mind works, prokofy :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *how
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Cocoanut Koala: We will be PROACTIVE on this one! And get something actually useful for everyone!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah well. If it has to be Lee, well...
You: well Lee is the one we have to go to and he always has some irritable condescending response
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It makes sense it's one of the concierges, with that I agree.
Midtown Bienenstich: Anita says she will first have to look at the proposal.
Cocoanut Koala: i say, do you not see that they must choose their own representative, the lindens?
Midtown Bienenstich: know what she's representing.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, ty, Midtown.
You: "That sim of yours isn't really crashing, Prokofy, you just have a poor connection at your upload stream blah blah"
You: well Robin is in charge of group tools reform
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cyn would be a better choice, but I'm not sure if she reports to Lee
Cocoanut Koala: well, hey
You: she told me something like "I'm going to be focusing on this in the next quarter"
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: they HAVE to be the ones to say, it is their workday.
You: so first I created a group called Group Tools Suck
You: just to give you some history
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Midtown Bienenstich: Um, just to know.
You: and I said "Robin, would you like to sit in on this meeting?"
You: LOL
You: well then Forseti quit
You: he had joined
Midtown Bienenstich: as of now, we have no literature on the group, right?
You: he quit because of some furry or sometbody who didn't want to be in the same group as me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-(
Cocoanut Koala: on what group?
You: and Forseti wanted to "look good" to the Lindens
You: he didn't like my group name
You: and I said, Robin already saw it, and admitted it is a fitting title
Cocoanut Koala: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry he quit, prokofy, despite your opinion, I value Forseti's opinions...
You: but it coould be called Blue PIneapples
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
You: well Forseti may have gone to form his own private group
You: so Travis Lambert and a few others and I kicked it around for awhile
Cocoanut Koala: which is another issue
You: but then we had a worse problem
You: which was telehubs and p2p
You: so we let it disband
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... of course... I'd also prefer something more sensible like "Zoning Tools Committe" ;)
You: I neede dother groups etc
Cocoanut Koala: Therefore - speed is of the essence.
Cocoanut Koala: There may be SIX such groups as this one sitting around discussing the same thing!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do you think so, Cocoanut?
Cocoanut Koala: In order that everyone may participate,
You: I wanted to start another group called sipmly Mainlanders
You: to work the Laz issue
Cocoanut Koala: and not just have it all get coopted behind closed doors.
You: and then the zoning issue too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cocoanut — are you speculating, or aware of some groups doing the same?
You: I don't want to carry water for PI owners, they have enough attention from Lee and others
Cocoanut Koala: i am speculating
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If yuo know them, I'd say, we should at least try to contact them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suggestion: grab attention on a forum post? Since it looks like they didn't come *here*
Cocoanut Koala: good idea
Cocoanut Koala: maybe a BETTER idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It has always unforeseen side-effects
Cocoanut Koala: to say that we are trying to get a city hall on the forums,
Cocoanut Koala: before we even DO
Cocoanut Koala: otherwise WE look all secretive
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A post stating the three points a b and c
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tend to agree.
Cocoanut Koala: let's you two work that up first then, before committee to approach
Justice Soothsayer: good idea to err on the side of openness
Cocoanut Koala: cause i know you're just gluttons for punishment!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I second that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and LOL
Cocoanut Koala: all in favor?
Cocoanut Koala: me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, definitely
Cocoanut Koala: anyone opposed?
Justice Soothsayer: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know what...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: post this whole conversation on the forums as well ;)
Cocoanut Koala: NOOOOOOOOOOO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahaa
Cocoanut Koala: I will sound like a paranoid!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was just a suggestion :)
Cocoanut Koala: well, i don't think we need to be that open at this point, erm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, iRL meetings have mostly "acts" or "minutes" or whatever you may call them, and not always full translations ;)
Cocoanut Koala: minutes, fine
Cocoanut Koala: me saying Democracy Island is going to bury us all, No
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Cocoanut Koala: lololololololol
Justice Soothsayer: strike that from the minutes
Cocoanut Koala: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: right :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn is secretely hiding a Linden Broadcast thingy and this meeting is being echoed on the WA
Cocoanut Koala: oh well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don't worry, they hardly speak English there :)
Cocoanut Koala: i have found in my longish life
Cocoanut Koala: that generally, if there is something I'm concerned about, or have a question about, so do many others
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope you're right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: because, hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: after that community roundtable
Cocoanut Koala: because hmmm . . . what?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tossed a few ideas around
Gwyneth Llewelyn: with closer friends
Cocoanut Koala: yes me as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and there wasn't much feedback really
Cocoanut Koala: this was a preparatory thing, not on the record
Gwyneth Llewelyn: except for "oh, if they're zoning communities, I'll be out of the zoned sims"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, something similar to "not in my backyard"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and "I'm out of the loop on that"
You: I'd like to post it on my blog
Cocoanut Koala: well, there is much, much desire for zoning, i know that
You: because I don't think there's anything secret really
Cocoanut Koala: not everyone
You: but you decide
You: the reality is people don't have time to plow through long transcripts
You: so what's the final action plan?
Cocoanut Koala: which means - only those who want to hang me will bother!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, a "condensed" version might be more effective.
You: Also Justice, could you let us know whether you are in this meeting in your personal capacity or representing DI and on a reconaissance mission?
Cocoanut Koala: oh he's not reconaissancing
You: also for extra credit, let us know if you are a RL judge or lawyer -- but that's optional : )
Justice Soothsayer: only personal capacity
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
You: it's ok to reconniassance
Justice Soothsayer: Always willing to go for the extra credit, prok. I teach law in RL.
Cocoanut Koala: yeah but he isn't
Midtown Bienenstich: Will there be a meeting with participating owners soon?
Cocoanut Koala: Really!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh wow :)
You: OK
You: excuse me
Midtown Bienenstich: To draft out the plan, etc?
Cocoanut Koala: what is your stance on the lazarus thing, then?
Cocoanut Koala: no
You: but is this a "those who can't do teach" kind of thing? I apologize in advance for the rudeness, but you didn't answer the question
Cocoanut Koala: you have misunderstood what i meant, midtown
You: teach does that mean "admitted to the bar"?
Cocoanut Koala: i meant - each major landowner gets to present his OWN ideas and plan on the panel.
Cocoanut Koala: "We" would be one of those groups.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: Adam and Nexus, might be another.
Cocoanut Koala: and so forth.
Midtown Bienenstich: Oh
Midtown Bienenstich: completely missed hat.
Midtown Bienenstich: *that
Cocoanut Koala: we just happen to be all groupy here cause ... well . . .cause why i;m not sure
Justice Soothsayer: I am admitted to the bar in DC, Ohio, and many federal courts, including the RL US upreme court.
You: OK,k so you have RL credentials
Cocoanut Koala: The idea is, with all the input from the various landowners
You: but do you have any idea of this world? of its people? of its issues?
Cocoanut Koala: better plans for group tools for zoning would emerge.
Gwyneth Llewelyn is slightly in awe now :)
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, Cocoa.
Midtown Bienenstich: but..
You: do you have any notion what it means to just impose some model on indigenous peoples?
Justice Soothsayer: only what i've seen in the last few months
Midtown Bienenstich: we need some type of coordination effort.
Justice Soothsayer: and of course from reading your blog, prok
Cocoanut Koala: well,
Midtown Bienenstich: at least to get it started.
Cocoanut Koala: thats what you are in on, midtown.
Cocoanut Koala: First,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe indeed
You: If you are a RL judge and lawyer, you know that the justice branch exists in a country government context of 3 branches
Cocoanut Koala: the idea gets oposted on the forums.
You: you don't just have the Supreme Court plunked down on the tabula resa of the State of Ohio with no context
Cocoanut Koala: Second, you are on the committee with gwyn to put forth the idea to the lindens
Cocoanut Koala: for this city hall, with these panelists.
Midtown Bienenstich: Oh.. I just mislead poor Anita.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I briefly ask both Midtown and Justice how your schedule on Sunday is?
Cocoanut Koala: plus hopefully some on forums would like the city hall idea, too.
You: Gwyn please don't be in awe of people with RL credentials.
Cocoanut Koala: the panelists would be major landowners, they would speak, then everyone could discuss.
Midtown Bienenstich: Avaiaalbe.
You: People can have virtual credentials too.
Justice Soothsayer: i'd have some time on sunday, gwyn
Midtown Bienenstich: I have a laptop, in case I'm mobile.
You: That is what Second Life is all about.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And you're right, Prokofy.
Justice Soothsayer: and i'll second prok on the credentials thing - he's absolutely right
Ravenglass Rentals in Erie $100: Store rented for 7 days...
Cocoanut Koala: well i'm not in AWE of his credentials whatsoever - have too many of my own *strut*
You: Then Justice if you are all those things, then you'd know how absurd it is
You: to put the US Supreme Court
Cocoanut Koala: but its good he has this background, and these skills
You: on the job of handling a builders' dispute in Columbus, OH
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure :)
You: context is all here
You: you seem to act like there is a tabula resa here for you to experiment on
You: and there is on your island
You: but not on my island, if you follow me
Justice Soothsayer: context can also be informed by RL
Cocoanut Koala: justice, you are kinda new
You: well you aren't just some island
Justice Soothsayer: there;s a lot of RL experience with zoning, condo assns, etc
Cocoanut Koala: did you come here because of D.I., or were yuou already here, or would you be here at some point anyway?
You: you are in a world of a mainland and an island
You: yes but what good does that do?
You: when here it is ALL HOUSTOn ALL THE TIME
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Justice was here before DI...
Cocoanut Koala: it will help though
You: ALL HOUSTIN ALL THE TIME
You: try to grasp what that means
You: NO ZONING
Justice Soothsayer: it can provide some models that can be adapted for use here
Cocoanut Koala: he can translate it, prok
You: and utter insantiy
You: no I disagree
You: you have to first look at the exigencies of this virtual world
Cocoanut Koala: and we can help influence him to translate it the way we want him to! ;)
You: and see the real issues here
You: the authentic real issues of the virtual world
Cocoanut Koala: well, we can tell him those issues, see
You: and they are not about what somebody did in Columbus
Cocoanut Koala: that's why he's here - to listen
You: Coco, he's here to listen with a funded project and tier he doesn't pay
Cocoanut Koala: i know
You: it has no legitimaacy for me prima facae
Cocoanut Koala: doesn't matter
You: he can talk like anyone
Cocoanut Koala: well no, doesn't have to, for it to be useful
You: but he is not someone trying to cope with the real issues
Cocoanut Koala: for him to be a useful citizen
Cocoanut Koala: he WILL
You: and I resent people like that formulating policy and tools FOR me without me
Cocoanut Koala: he IS a resident!
Justice Soothsayer: prok, i have an impeach bush sign in my back yard too
Cocoanut Koala: well, that's why we have this whole plan going here
You: yes but you aren't doing anything about it
You: I am
You: you are merely proposing theories that the Lindens may or may not crib
Cocoanut Koala: now
Cocoanut Koala: that's not quite fair, is it?
Justice Soothsayer: not true - i just signed up for committee to have a town hall about it
You: Coco it is
You: because these issues are an abstract salon topic for Future Salon
You: for pepole like Justice
Cocoanut Koala: What is our goal?
You: it's a hobby
You: for me it is not a hobby
Cocoanut Koala: It is to have control, or at least input in, this process.
You: Coco
Cocoanut Koala: If he can help us with that, that is as good as if i can help us with that.
You: you are already lending legitimacy to this idiocy
You: it has none
You: absolutely non
Cocoanut Koala: (I just like arguing with Prok)
You: it's a school project
Cocoanut Koala: no - i think it is a bunch of egghead pie in the sky
You: by some grade-B law school professor at that
Cocoanut Koala: but it IS going to affect us, if we don't deal with it!
You: Justice would be able to explain that
Cocoanut Koala: I figure Justice can see that.
You: why should I be bowing and genuflecting to that?
Cocoanut Koala: i'm not bowing!
You: RL credentials are immaterial
Cocoanut Koala: or genuflecting!
Cocoanut Koala: i'm INCLUDING>
You: Coco, it's not about including in a discussion
You: it's about legitimizing this Democracy Island
You: which I refuse to do
Cocoanut Koala: i'm the last to bow and genefulect to a bunch of university people coming in to tell us what to do
You: it has no legitimacy
Cocoanut Koala: well
You: it was not elected or apointed
Justice Soothsayer scrolls up, and sees that Prok was the one who raised the question of credentials first
Cocoanut Koala: but can't we consider justice as a person of his own?
Cocoanut Koala: not SOLELY defined by D.I.?
You: I asked about credentials to see if you were going to wave them around
You: and I see you are
Justice Soothsayer: only when asked, prok
You: you did the same on my blog Judge
You: you tried to make some technical correction
Midtown Bienenstich: I have to go now.
Cocoanut Koala: i have no intention of letting us be coopted by D.I. people, or our interests
You: without grasping the larger issue of legitimacy
Midtown Bienenstich: but it's been awesome talking with you all.
You: how can you plunk down a Supreme Court, with no government?
You: no elections?
Cocoanut Koala: see yo ulater midtown!
You: no parliament?
You: you think it's ok to have a pretty building to be a Hollywood stage?
Midtown Bienenstich: Cocoa, Gwyn, I'm still partially confused on my duties.
Justice Soothsayer: Its a 3D replica, not an institution
You: then I agree with Barbarra
You: put it on a 1024
You: make it a Western with a hanging judge
Cocoanut Koala: gwyn will get with you on sunday, i think
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I will, yes.
Midtown Bienenstich: great.
Midtown Bienenstich: laterz, all!
You: My 3-D world wants to have institutions, not hobbies for you.
You: That's where we differ.
Justice Soothsayer: indeed
You: I want real courts with real decisions.
Cocoanut Koala: well, we are the branch that's real
You: Not toys.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll try to get back to you both (Justice & Midtown)
Justice Soothsayer: thanks, gwyn
You: So far what we've seen is 2 college kids making a term paper toy
You: that evaporated
Cocoanut Koala: well this is a slam dunk
You: and we've seen Zarf become a Linden
Cocoanut Koala: the residents are not going to allow this group of college people make our world
You: that's where we are on the local justice issue
You: well I think conflicting notions of the world are at stake here
You: Justice and Beth and Snoopy think this is just a tool
Cocoanut Koala: i agree
You: a platform to do stuff with
Justice Soothsayer: or whether it is inedeed a world
You: it's all blank for them
You: but it's not blank for me
Cocoanut Koala: but - by sitting in with us, he LEARNS it is real
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, I'm not disagreeing with Prokofy ;) It just seems to me that D.I.'s "current project" is, to be kind, "nebulous" right now. I thought Phase c) was much more planned.
You: I already have tools and I already practice governance.
You: as do thousands of other people here
Cocoanut Koala: hence why we have all this plan.
You: it's already colonized
You: it's not the moon
Justice Soothsayer: your'e right, gwyn
Cocoanut Koala: i think justice has met some of the inhabitants, lol
Cocoanut Koala: he has met the enemy, and they is us!
Cocoanut Koala: kik
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
You: well here's one inhabitant that will give the college stuff a run for its money
Cocoanut Koala: me too
You: I don't get a cut-rate non-profit sim to run my hardknocks governanc e project
You: I work my fucking ass off
You: and I PAY to do it
Cocoanut Koala: right
Cocoanut Koala: and it is not a college/non college thing anyway
You: It is Coco
Justice Soothsayer: its been a very interesting discussion, but its getting late
Cocoanut Koala: i got academic credentials out the kazoo (almost)
You: a college has this project funded by another college
You: with college kids and professors
Cocoanut Koala: i know
Cocoanut Koala: nice meeting you justice!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, Prokofy, I'm a bit confused if that's what Democracy Island really *is* about. I hope to find out some more on it tomorrow.
Justice Soothsayer: thanks again for an interesting and provocative conversation
You: Gwyn I think I get it more now
You: it's people who think they can run something
Cocoanut Koala: see you later justice!
You: and who won't listen to the concept of "nothing about us /without us"
You: they think there is no "us" to worry about
Justice Soothsayer: good night, all
Cocoanut Koala: they will learn there is
Cocoanut Koala: night!
You: Hardly
Cocoanut Koala: they will
Cocoanut Koala: and rue the day, too
You: Coco, people with RL credentials will wave them
Cocoanut Koala: THEN I WILL WAVE MINE!
Rocks Diamond: coco look at me
You: and say why should I, admitted to the bar in the District of Columbia, listen to some blowhard in here?
Cocoanut Koala: i see you, you are quite frenetic and have been for some time
You: they are trolls and griefers
You: lock them up
Cocoanut Koala: They will, they have to
Cocoanut Koala: we are a democracy, whether anyone wants to admit it or not
Rocks Diamond: Who are trolls and griefers?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "we"?
You: Well my RL credentials include having to fight people like this in RL of course LOL
You: so they don't scare me
Cocoanut Koala: yes, we, all of us
Cocoanut Koala: it won't do for the lindens to pretend we aren't
You: but honestly, the whole DI thing is elitist, and it's happenstance
You: it's whoever networked
Cocoanut Koala: that's the source of all their troubles
You: whoever knows so-and-so
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh
Cocoanut Koala: yes it is, but it is HERE
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
You: well Coco why give it legitimacy?
Cocoanut Koala: ok maybe some of us are socialists
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How is Second Life a "democracy"?
You: see I was asked to come and speak at it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Cocoanut Koala: because they hold the cards, prok
You: imagine!
You: I was originally asked to be on the panel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's true.
You: I talked to SNOOPY for two hours
You: he asked me to speak on the subject of Aimee's parties matrix
You: and I said HELL NO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So they invited Gwyn instead.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
You: he wanted to fit me in like a Christmas tree decoration on his tree that was already up
Cocoanut Koala: and we have a plan going
You: he wanted me to identify the other people
Cocoanut Koala: you keep saying legitimacy BUT
Cocoanut Koala: you also can't pretend they don't exist
Cocoanut Koala: and might not possibly do harm therefore.
You: and I said no we have to have a larger topic
Cocoanut Koala: i agree with your call on that, prok
You: which is "groups in SL and how they lobby and press their interests"
Rocks Diamond: /timer 60
You: then I came back to him the next day
You: so I said NO I won't speak
Cocoanut Koala: reasonable
You: and said I will speak if you can ditch that Aimee topic
You: and he wouldn't
Cocoanut Koala: course not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh!
You: but to avoid controversy
You: he invited Gwyn
You: and changed thetopic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is something you didn't tell us about....
You: so he could then say it wasn't that he didn't disinvite me
You: it's just that he "changed the topic to be more positive"
You: "to keep the momentum going"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, completely, he replaced the interesting social aspects with techie wikki stuff.
You: and made it "Sl and the Web Today"
Cocoanut Koala: buncha crap
You: well it's derailed
You: and not a single topic all day long tomorrow
Cocoanut Koala: really?
Cocoanut Koala: gwyn
You: deals with THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE AND WORK HERE AND ALREADY DO THE FUCKING DEMOCRACY WITHOUT THEM
You: see I can't have them step on that
Cocoanut Koala: what is it about what i said about we are a democracy that you were commenting on?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, sadly, i don't think that SL is a democracy. It has the *potential* of becoming one.
You: I have to relate my RL experience here.
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: People are so "afraid" of having a "legal system"
You: When the Soviet Union first fell, there were thousands of $500/day consultants
Cocoanut Koala: well what i meant, democracy can't be stifled, and is already here, in the hearts of reasoning people, which is most everybody.
You: they came on the scene with no language, no credentials nothing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or basic things like "Bills of rights"
Cocoanut Koala: we just do it in different form, like these city halls.
You: and all of us who worked it 20 years before that for $20/day or whatever were not as glamorous
You: so those $500/day people would call us up
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, in the heart — I agree, it's in the hart of *many*
You: where we still earned $20/day
You: and they would then get paid $500/day to crib our comments without our knowledge
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But sadly, not always in the heart of the few that have these "pressure groups".
You: they would parachute in and not even be able to talk to the locals
Cocoanut Koala: i agree, it is maddening prok, but you gotta see past that
You: and would write the Kyrgyz Constitution with no Kyrgyz present, etc
You: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: you ascribe too much good will to these people
Cocoanut Koala: no i dont
You: Justice Soothsayer may be sincere
You: but the rest like Hiro are not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I've heard that rumour elsewhere, Prok, but I never gave it any credit until you told that story :-(
Cocoanut Koala: i realize that
You: and Beth Noveck's theories are scary
You: go read them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's frightening.
Cocoanut Koala: i agree
Cocoanut Koala: but, i am saying, we are STRONGER than they are
You: what rumour?
Cocoanut Koala: all we have to do
You: what do you mean?
You: you lost me
Cocoanut Koala: is put into place a, b, and c, like yousaid
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Creating a constitution without the Kyrgyz present...
Ravenglass Rentals in Grace $325: Store rented for 30 days...
Cocoanut Koala: thats why it wont work!
Cocoanut Koala: thats why we win!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I read that somewhere, on an obscure reference
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
Cocoanut Koala: thats why thismeeting!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it won't
Cocoanut Koala: we are getting good at these things
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like your optimism, hehe
Cocoanut Koala: I already preempted the "cutting stipends" thingie with a poll
Gwyneth Llewelyn: At the very least
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
Cocoanut Koala: well, i have my down moments too, like prok, he can tell you
Cocoanut Koala: the roles have been reversed
Cocoanut Koala: usually its after i have taken a beating on the forums, lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, at the very least, the ones still thinking about "utopia" will think twice when LL starts to announce all the changes
Cocoanut Koala: but im gettng better at that!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I expect that perhaps a few thousands will leave
You: well the Kyrgyz thing I cite as a kind of generic example
Gwyneth Llewelyn: unable to deal with the concept that There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Cocoanut Koala: which changes?
Cocoanut Koala: oh that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good riddance to them!
Cocoanut Koala: of course
You: I had my part in the Russian Constitution -- many hands were put on that
You: many many many
Cocoanut Koala: I myself believe there MUST be a free lunch
Cocoanut Koala: in a virtual place, in a game
Gwyneth Llewelyn: really, prok? That you didn't told me yet :)
You: but in the end they just deleted what they didn't like and all that expensive foreign help was the first to go
You: ewll I can tell you the story some day
Gwyneth Llewelyn: right
You: but it's more about how they don't keep that kind of foreign liberal stuff in the end anyway
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Cocoanut... so there is a free lunch? ;)
You: it has to be indigenous and come from their own specialists and their own process
Cocoanut Koala: there needs to be, yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
You: you can't just graft the First Amendment into another country
You: well we worked on a part that had to do with rules for declaring a state of emergency
You: which they did keep
You: but then they used that to wage war in October 2003
Gwyneth Llewelyn: !
You: so beware of foreign things that look good but in another context they are misused
You: context is all
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: that's why plunking down the US Supreme Court in an international game space horrifies me
You: it just makes me cringe
Cocoanut Koala: well i'll be damned if i let those D.I. people define my world for me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh
You: especialy withe fight we just had to keep Gomez from being apointed etc
You: well Coco
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless the presentation tomorrow is going to be *very different*
You: you are conferring legitimacy on them
Cocoanut Koala: that is my style
You: well Gwyn read their hype
You: they are having a country fair
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Justice was saying is that at this stage, D.I. is just... "vapurware"
You: a country fair!
You: what could be more sweet and American!
Cocoanut Koala: i confer legitimacy on 99.5% of people
You: a country fair!
Cocoanut Koala: well at least that seems harmless!
You: with "room for trade associations, civic groups, experts"
You: I find the "trade association" thing touching
You: like the Ladies Undergarments Amalgamated Union will come to call
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are none that really have a saying in SL...
You: "We don't like the group tools"
Cocoanut Koala: well i wish bob bunderfield's builders association (see my title) would do something useful
You: and then we will look at this smorgasbord and say ooh, that's shiny
You: Gwyn
You: have you ever noticed?
You: on the forums
You: the group forums
You: none of the groups are active
You: except Nberg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
Cocoanut Koala: i've noticed that too
You: because lefty socialists are always zealous
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite so.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol
You: but like Lesbians United or whatever is defunct
Gwyneth Llewelyn: One day, Prokofy, you'll use N'burg as an example
You: oh but it's a loathsome one
You: see that's how Bolsheviks win
Gwyneth Llewelyn: on how even in SL the Lefty Utopians tried to build something
You: by being active when others aren't
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and utterly failed ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ulrika hardly logs in
You: well but Satchmo says
You: let me get it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Kendra is stepping down
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no more lefties
You: what?????
Cocoanut Koala: she is?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well from her current authoritarian role, yes
Cocoanut Koala: why?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She'll be a "normal builder"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why? Cocoanut, it should be obvious.
You: Neualtenburg has the metaverse's only elected representitive government.
You: of course spelling included
Cocoanut Koala: well it isnt to me, so why?
You: why is Kendra stepping down? she had enough lol?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: When lefties fail to understand that the rest of the people are not so eager to go ahead with their theories...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that people start to become, uh, just regular, moderate capitalists
You: wow did Teh Ppl prevail out in the Socialist Bavarian Horror???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the lefties abandon the ship
You: wow
Cocoanut Koala: really
Gwyneth Llewelyn: because they feel it's sinking
You: well that's how it should work in RL
Cocoanut Koala: how interesting
You: that's good news!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in fact it's making a profit
Cocoanut Koala: maybe it will become something better
You: so who are TehPpl now?
Cocoanut Koala: than it was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since Ulrika stepped down ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
You: who is the advance guard of Teh Ppl?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, the people are just regular guys, Prokofy
Cocoanut Koala: well i need to go get a bit of work done, i[m on a deadline
Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is not really an "advanced guard"
You: "We, Teh Ppl, In order to form a more perfect Better World" etc
Cocoanut Koala: i've been playing hookey just to be here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nah
You: well I will watch with interest
Cocoanut Koala: i will see y'all later!
You: poor Kendra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's more like "we have to stop this nonsense of not having enough shops" :)
You: thanks for coming Coco
Cocoanut Koala: if . . . i can tear myself away
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nah, Kendra enjoys building as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so she'll stay for a long while
Cocoanut Koala: ulrika doesn't play much anymore?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Cocoanut Koala: hmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the last 6 months
Gwyneth Llewelyn: she was twice online
Cocoanut Koala: that may explain why she is getting reckless on the forums
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for a total of one hour
Cocoanut Koala: there is the new baby
Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes
You: Ulrika is a bit behind the curve I noticed yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But she has been a mother for half a year now ;)
Cocoanut Koala: well still
Cocoanut Koala: a baby can kind of squash your prior enthusiams, for a long time
Cocoanut Koala: like say A WHOLE FREAKIN LIFETIME
Cocoanut Koala: dang kids
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well of course it can, Cocoanut :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I expect that when she returns
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She'll see that her nice dream has gone completely bypassed
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Cocoanut Koala: well she has probably been in touch with kendra and whatnot and already knows its happening
You: hmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or perhaps N'burg doesn't grow fast enough and it also fails, It's possible
You: but Gwyn!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure, she reads the forums
You: "Neualtenburg has the metaverse's only elected representitive government."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: she knows what people think
Cocoanut Koala: i can't say i cry over peopl drifting away who have wished for my virtual death
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yeah, right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's again a pretty hyperbole.
You: well Kendra wants to eliminate me from the game
Cocoanut Koala: thats a pure d FACT.
You: she's always writing that LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, prokofy, that's true.
You: why?
Cocoanut Koala: oh that one
Cocoanut Koala: representative government
You: can't she just ignore me?
Cocoanut Koala: thought you meant people wishing my virtual death, lol
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i'm off!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't know, but I can only guess that she doesn't like the way you write :)
You: Rocks do not event grief or you will be gone hon
Cocoanut Koala: *i'm very disciplined you know*
You: stop bombing my club
Rocks Diamond: im not griefing
Cocoanut Koala: see you later!
You: well why does she read the blog then?
Rocks Diamond: the onyl person i am griefing, if anyone, is myself
You: is it like a traffic accident? can't help rubbernecking?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh I can only speculate, Prok
You: too true Rocks too true
You: but you are bombing up my view with stuff
You: so light somewhere already
Rocks Diamond: sorry i am trying to cage myself
Rocks Diamond: dont be a prude now
Rocks Diamond: so true.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I really do wonder why so many people post hateful comments on your blog. I mean, why bother??
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should be going now
You: I guess because they can?
You: and I get under their skin?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This was a most productive meeting, I think
You: well we have heard from Justice Soothsayer
You: my, what a name!
You: gosh
You: it's like Dear Leader, my alt, who is a member of DI now : )
You: modest, so modest!
You: ok well Dear will see you there tomorrow afternoon perhaps
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well prokofy — I can't really understand that "masochist" behaviour, but perhaps yes, they like to annoy you, and get annoyed in return. Who knows what's their kick?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
You: after my chores lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Dear LEader", wow
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
SNOOPYbrown Zamboni is offline
You: my mashocist or theirs?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Theirs, prokofy
You: I like to save Dear for Democracy occasions
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're just answering
Vivianne Draper is online
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol :)
You: ok well back to work
You: thanks for coming
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok... bye for now, I must really go
You: and agreeing to be on the Delivery Committee or whatever
You: go to it
You: see you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: my pleasure, since I would be annoying the Lindens with emails anyway!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye for now....
You: bye

Soundboarding

Yet another annoyance in the secretive SL scene is the "Community Round Table" structure/process which is a small, selected, filtered group from which one can all too easily be banned with a "one-strike and you're out policy) (ahem), which enables people like Gwyn Llewylyn to post lengthy sounding-board type proposals and have the Linden ear basically to herself (not that she doesn't have that already) but one can never be too rich, too thin, have too much tier paid, and have too much Linden ear. It always pays to get Linden ear in front of other people, such as to be able to do the smackdown of them later.

I really hope that readers who are still quietly lurking on the CRT list can help us publicize it from time to time. It's had some really really bad stuff on it (like proposals being vigorously applauded to post all names of TOS violators on the police blotter, but never the name of the prosecuting Linden, nor the whistle-blowing AR'ing residents who blew them in -- very bad stuff).

Hence, here's a bit from this week's CRT which is on a listserve, to which you can only become party if Pathfinder clears your personal email to him.

From:       [email protected]
    Subject:     Proposal for Agenda for the Community Team Roundtable in February
    Date:     January 6, 2006 7:19:24 AM MST (CA)
    To:       [email protected]
    Reply-To:       [email protected]

Hello all,

After the somewhat fragmented (but still interesting) roundtable last Wednesday, I'd like to suggest the next roundtable to focus on the so many ideas that Robin left for us to think about.

I'm not minimizing the importance of all other discussed issues ? censorship vs. enforcement of ToS comes very high on top of my mind ? but just seeing if it's worth to discuss "future social changes" in SL, as opposed to "current community issues" (ie. where the harm is already done and we can only expect to "control it").

Robin (with some previous hints on Philip's interview to the Metaverse Messenger) suggested that we discussed a quality-focused, content-and-entertainment-is-not-for-free model for Second Life. If I'm correctly interpreting her words, this is basically a rough resume of what I have understood that is going to be released slowly as time goes by:

Assumptions:

    - all sorts of Linden stipends lead, sooner or later, to either "favouritism", "gaming", or "abuses". Adding more rules needs more (human) enforcement, and sometimes technical fixes to ensure "fairness" are too cumbersome to implement
    - in RL, entertainment is (mostly) *not* for free
    - SL has grown enough that we can focus on quality (which has a higher cost) instead of merely quantity (10 TBytes of content is quite a bit! Just compare it to "a few GBytes" for the common variety of MMORPGs)
    - also, losing a few thousand users because they cannot adapt to a "quality-focused world" where things have a "cost", is something Linden Lab can afford to do in 2006, but perhaps couldn't afford in the past
    - to better protect value of land, zoning is going to be introduced as a new feature in group-owned land. Groups will also be more like "companies" in spirit
    - nobody will prevent people to have their own "free content & entertainment" areas, but they'll have to self-sustain themselves financially, and not expect Linden financing

Measures:

    - eliminate Developers' Incentives
    - slowly diminish the importance of traffic/dwell, or eliminate it completely
    - adjust weekly stipends downwards (like Philip always said that would come in the future), or even reduce it to zero over time
    - no more Linden support for special interest groups (ie. cultural/educational groups getting discounts for their land/premium accounts) ? encourage them to get their own funding from other residents instead (or eventually RL funding)
    - eventually replace "finantial support" by "open, public contests" and contracts for producing certain types of entertainment/content that LL sees important in SL (just like a RL government works)
    - make event announcements be paid (like classifieds)
    - encourage content and entertainment producers to replace the "free" model by the "dirt-cheap" model. Most freebies (or free attendance to entertainment) can be sold by L$1, which most people can afford anyway. Thousands of people paying L$1 will enable even the most generous content producer to have a comfortable income, as opposed to being forced to rely upon stipends/dwell/special incentives from LL to continue to produce free content
    - encourage land owners and developers to zone their land on the mainland, by agreeing upon "zoning laws", and develop a mechanism to enforce those. This will mean that zoned areas in the mainland may suddenly become interesting again ("interesting" in the terms of "valuable" as well).
    - have a company-oriented model for groups, instead of a "free sharing community" model that is currently in place

All these changes show a distinct paradigm shift by LL. For a while, I think it was important that content/entertainment producers could establish themselves by relying upon external financing (in this case, "governmental" financing) to continue to be encouraged to produce more and more free content/entertainment. This, in turn, provides "quantity" (which we have right now) although not necessarily "quality". I'm not wishing to enter a discussion of what "quality" means in each and every case. For now, a simple definition shall be enough: quality items/entertainment are those you're willing to pay for them and feel that you're getting a good value for your money. This doesn't mean that quality content can't be free; it means that the willingness to pay for them (even if just an insignificant amount) is enough for people not to feel "cheated".

I certainly think that these and other measures will mean less camping chairs, and more Tringo :) on the event side, and less freebies, but also more content producers that will charge you for an item but give excellent technical support for it. It will slowly reduce "fake events" to absolute zero (you won't profit from "gaming" the system). It will, to a degree, have people get used to the idea that to attend a club with a good DJ and have lots of fun, you're going to pay L$1 from your pocket to join the fun; but encourage you to do your own events as well, and charge L$1 per person to attend them. More money will change hands ? the economy will grow.

On the other hand, the defendants of the "freebie culture of SL" will raise their voices and threaten to leave at the slightest indication that they might not get "stuff for free" any more. Should we worry, or should we attempt to deal with the issue before it gets implemented, so that people get alternatives soon, and start to plan for them? Putting in other words: can (or should) we prepare this transition slowly and carefully? What can we offer to people that only log in to Second Life for the free content?

    - Gwyn

--
"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

Trust

Just when you think Second Life couldn't become *more* of a Vanity Fair, just when you think people couldn't become *more* self-serving and duplicitous, well, they don't disappoint ROFL.

Such is the Thinkers program posted today for Thursday, January 12, at 4 p.m. game-time. Astoundingly, it's called "Trust".

Does  "trust" exist in SL?  Who do you trust in SL, and why?  Are there tools, institutions or processes that we can insist upon to help build trust?  Join Gwyneth Llewelyn and Justice Soothsayer for a discussion of "Trust in SL".

As I've outlined copiously here in this blog, with the kind of detailed post that only looks like a "he-said, she-said" or "ad hominem" attack to outsiders (and even to the parties involved), evidently neither Gwyneth or Justice are the kind of people you can work with or trust. I say that with sadness, because regardless of my differences of opinion with them, I used to think that you could still trust them enough not to stab you in the back after a publicly-agreed upon process.

Why? Because they take credit for other's work, "yes" people they mean to say "no" to, don't speak their minds, and do things behind other's backs -- all with an aim to enhance their reputation with what they usually call "the community".

None of this has a bit of anything to do with any "tools" or "institutions" -- as if this is some kind of technical problem like getting a notary from that um...Lindenized notary who says not even a Linden can break the seal.

I think a rather obvious example of my last claim is this very Thinkers meeting itself. Both Gwyn and Justice know full well that they've violated the trust of not only me, but others who were in a process with them -- in that process reluctantly, but only to get the job done.

They could remedy this by offering to discuss this problem of the letter and their badly-timed and badly-run meeting in Nberg Sunday, but instead, astoundingly, they whitewash themselves by pulling *another* public meeting, that ALSO depends on you just happening to catch it among the Tringo, to try to stake out their reputational ground on this. They make it seem they are the rueful, thoughtful persons, contemplating "what to do" about people like Prok who become "paranoid" -- when it is not about Prok or paranoia, it's about their bad behaviour.

Forums-whoring and venue-shopping are the standard tools of the trade here in this really strenuous game of reputation-enhancement. I always marvel at it. I find it a source of great inner calm and sustenance that I have absolutely not one whit of concern about "reputational enhancement" in SL. If people want to go on perma-banning me, negrating, muting me, ignoring me, cutting blog links, etc. etc. I can only calmly watch them because in the end, they are only discrediting *themselves*.

This little routine process of sending a letter to Lindens wasn't any big deal. In and of itself, it's not worth dwelling on. But the process of making a letter out of disparate ideas and opinions, building a consensus, is an important one. I usually err on the side of joining such consensus when I can, I did it constantly during the telehub and Laz meetings and actions. Here, too, I really had no desire to entrust this delicate operation to two people I saw gunning to scoop it up for their own enhancement, but I figured no harm would be done by being cooperative.

Reluctantly, because neither I nor others wish to concede ANY role to Democracy Island and hangers-on like Justice Soothsayer in our second life business, I just let him pick this up. But I reiterate that he and his confreres at the Isle of Demos do not have trust and legitimacy. They will not get it. They have broken what little willingness people had to engage with them. They did that for reasons of a sense of vanity, arrogance, privilege, "I know better" -- and many other nasty features of the human persona, especially online.

(SNOOPY, BTW did it first, by first inviting me to speak, arguing with me for 2 hours, not being willing to change his ill-advised and actually overly dramatic and politicized topic of "Aimee's Matrixes", then not being willing to concede when I wrote the next day that I'd be willing to speak if he broadened it...then changing the topic COMPLETELY and disinviting me and inviting Gwyn. See, that sort of bad faith and poor handling of community relations is what UNDERMINES trust. You have to be consistent. If you invite someone, you have to be willing to discuss topics and not impose them. If you impose them, against common sense and judgement, and get an answer of "I refuse to legitimize you doing that," you should be willing to learn something. You then don't ignore the person's email the next day saying, look, rather than Aimee's matrix, if they are willing to risk the possible legitimization of you they do not seek and are highly distrustful of, and have a broader topic like "groups in SL and how they lobby" or something.)

Justice actually thinks that posting a letter on the forums without the signatures of the people who so arduously, through a process, drafted it, created a consensus, and signed it, is just some technical slip-up, just some "failure to scroll down".

I marvel at that, I truly do.  I find it stunning.

It shows a profound tone-deafness to the real issues of the RL and SL worlds we live in to even imagine such a technical thing could happen. Signatures are people -- people you worked with. They are the most important thing on a document.

Imagine, leaving in the names of Lindens at the top of a letter -- scrupulously and excessively, with too many -- and then leaving off all the residents who signed the letter -- and that says it all, hmm? Tropism to power, to the state, and stepping on the grassroots.

They got left off because Justice evidently is arrogant, and wishes to take credit not only as a convenor, but a drafter, and a forcer of consensus. This is rabidly awful stuff. This is exactly how people sneak up on you with governments that you don't want, don't need, and didn't ask for. It's really to be rebuffed in the strongest possible terms. And I do.

It would be inconceivable of me to draft a letter and leave off signatures. Every time we've gathered signatures to Philip or some other Linden on telehubs or Lazarus or some such issue, and I've had to compile them, I always checked them over and over numerous times. I'd post the letter and then even go look in the sent queue. I can't imagine posting something so visible on the forums, seeing it, and not going, OMG, I left off those signatures and fixing it within hours.

Indeed, it was not until I screamed bloody murder here and cried "foul" that those signatures finally went up. And they went up not with a genuine and sincere apology, but a nasty and vicious swipe and me, impugning my sanity, impugning my perception of the situation, chiming in with the Group Think that I'm "paranoid" and laughing gleefully and nastily, "Oh, no conspiracy theory here, just didn't scroll down far enough LOLzers."

Hell, no. If you think I believe in that lame excuse, you believe in the Tooth Fairy.

I've already addressed Gwyn's profound act of bad faith on this matter of this process of trying to get a more articulated and effective public meeting on the zoning issue.

All of this takes place against the usual backdrop of SL white noise -- this time with the first 10 sims being sold to Guni Greenstein (Anshe's RL husbsand), prompting many to despair of ever having a chance to buy a single sim, and prompting many to speculate that Guni and Anshe finally got some kind of REAL telehub compensation deal since the August 1 deal wasn't going to benefit them.

There is no substitute for morality and decency, and good character. These cannot be manufactured into tools.

For example, someone who becomes intimate with you online, and has the opposite gender from their RL gender, and doesn't tell you the truth about their RL gender, has committed a grave misdeed -- in the eyes of the majority of people discussing this in online communities. Many people in a forums discussion will say "they don't care" or "it doesn't matter" or "it's more about who the person is and their soul," but deep down, they wouldn't like it if such a deception was committed against *them*.

This is the kind of bedrock line of behaviour that many, many people agree upon in virtual communities. And by intimate, they don't mean swinging in a club or dancing at a naked avatar contest or going with a paid escort. They mean true intimacy and falling in love and becoming close. Taking advantage of someone's trust in that fashion, especially knowing in advance that it would shock and hurt them to find out the truth, is pretty much universally condemned. It's condemned, even if you think ultimately it is about the person's soul. Gender is pretty important stuff.

Ditto not telling someone about a RL relationship which means that a SL relationship cannot be taken into RL and cannot go very far in SL. This sort of hiding is also universally condemned. Some people like to write clever things like "what goes on in SL stays in SL," but this kind of behaviour, again, is far, far easily to tolerate in general, in a hypothetical, in another, than it is when applied to oneself.

The realm of personal relationships is one thing. But in business, there are also many matters of character and process that don't require anybody to make a special technical tool, they just depend on people not being assholes and not being arrogant and following through what a committee or group has decided, without pulling the blanket on themselves.

For example, if a group agrees on the elements of a text, you don't start inserting and freelancing later. You don't drag out the process. You don't suddenly think, "what if this or that" and sticking in what you feel like.

These are pretty basic norms. One could create a group template that threw up a Word-like document that showed a core text and everyone's words in red or green with strike marks and carrots -- this is done now in some resolutions in the UN. But even with this "tool," Rl experience shows us that backroom deals, horse-trading, special interests, little deals are still involved in creating a multinational text that represents a consensus. People think this is "first life evil" that they are going to "get rid of" in SL. No so, G.I.

I've had notecarded conversations I've been able to give back to people, and they still blindly insist on some other nonce interpretation of their own.

Having the ability not to impugn chat logs would go a long way to proving to Lindens or other doubters or the community at large that some people are liars, cheaters, stealers, etc. But often, the nuances cannot be imparted in a card, and the card could present an accuracy that still does not tell the truth.

Worst of all, in the technical realm, is the notion of some kind of plus/minus reputation system that would enable those collecting enough points in any game that inevitably results to prevail. The CW now is to say that the old Linden system of negrates was "gamed". I actually felt it very empowering to be able to negrate evil-doers from the forums who engaged in RL disclosure, harassment, personal insults, and other offenses with impunity. It meant that they had at least one negative rate on their record that was true -- since all their posrates were collected from sychophants. In the 3-4 cases where I could triple-neg-rate some particularly bad offenders, I could make an eloquent statement against the barrage of lies and propaganda that emanates from the forums Group-Think. It's no wonder that these who got the triple negrate clamoured the loudest to have them removed-- their vanity could not take it.

How can you build trust? Only by good deeds. If you slander someone, eventually the truth will come out. And those who are slandered or libeled could take the path of ignoring you, or they could take the path of whacking back hard (that's what I do) so you lose your sense of impunity.

The sense of impunity is the greatest vice of the virtual world and is the chief reason for lack of trust.

Another way you create lack of trust is by holding meetings in secret -- sometimes ducking responsibility for this offense against a shared process by putting it up on the calendar amongst the Tringo at the last minute so you can claim it was not secret.

Yet another trust-buster is sitting in a meeting and yes-ing a person you claimed in another meeting, elsewhere, where that person wasn't present, that you were critical of them or their ideas. Sitting in silence, when before when they weren't there you were critical, can only show you up to be a coward or a hypocrite or worse, a manipulative and cunning persona.

Letting a person you said nothing to in a public meeting in which they said really troublesome things like "Individuals are dangerous" or "individuals are tyrants" merely for buying and zoning a sim (!) is bad enough; to let that person then post your meeting up on the forums and ratifying it into the awful forums stone in the public eye (and more importantly the Linden eye) is far worse.

All of these things come down to character and behaviour. They aren't fixable by tools. They are only fixable, when they happen, by relentless exposure and relentless documentation and relentless push-back. To ignore them is to fuel the sense of impunity that the arrogance and hubris of such people relies on.

We've got a real problem on our hands. A few people with the right connections are trying to represent themselves as "the thoughtful ones," the "right thinkers" and "those who can convene the community" and "bridge-builders" and "consensus-makers" and "mediators" but they are tainted. They are tainted because they don't do these things sincerely and honestly. They are tainted because they collude with Lindens or even become Lindens, and sadly, Lindens are tained because of things like the IRC Channel and much more. By and large the Lindens are indeed a credible institution; like democracy, it is the best form of government except for all the others. But the trust is broken on some major accounts and nowhere near enough has been done to repair it.

These trust-busters take these bad-faith actions not by mistake, not in innocence, but through hubris:  They do them to enhance their reputation, to gain points, to level up, to become Lindens or at least get Lindens to listen to them, or say what they know Lindens will say five minutes from now and buff up their resumes.

If you call them on this bad faith, they shrug, call you paranoid, call you a ranter, and say you are engaging in ad hominem attacks. That's why this new form of very slippery and electronic totalitarianism that is getting started on the Internet by the Snowcrashed elite is horribly disconcerting and alarming -- it will succeed, unless the most relentless push is made against it now.

The Red Queen was noted for saying something was so because she says it was so. The denizens of Nberg who keep poisoning the well keep claiming they aren't even socialist. That they've removed those who are the hard left. That those who call them socialist and question the collectivist ideology that causes so much real harm in the world as "McCarthyites".

It's that Red Queen faculty for calling something because they say it so, and questioning your own perception of reality and ability to call a spade a space that is a hallmark of their manipulation.

I can only urge everyone reading this who is of good will and sound mind to join me in Nberg tomorrow at 4 pm to ensure that yet another exercise in SL bad faith does not go down without at least a struggle.

Factions

An annoyance of Second Life is the vast pretense that there is one world, no factions, no parties, and Unity -- except for of course, the Infamous Antagonist and his alts and friends, but they don't count.

That may be why Justice Soothsayer, joining the party at this juncture, stripped out the names of all the people who signed a letter to the Lindens recently, for some unfathomable reason, possibly in the mistaken belief that to leave them in would make the letter seem like "just one or a few interest groups" or "have the name of the Banned One" on it or whatever, when the intent was to make it sound like the Voice of the People. That's silly. Despite their sectarianism, the forums royals can handle a letter going to Lindens from just a small group of citizens especialy if they publicize it, duh. I hope even the immature and infantile forum royals and IRC gang, with their mouths usually suctioned firmly around the Linden teat, realize that some of the other puppies should get some of the hind milk now and then.

We're growing  up now, and we don't get the screaming and gnashing of teeth and cries of "Betrayer! Evil One!" for every time an Interest Group writes or meets with the Lindens -- beyond that Original and Blessed Interest Group called the FIC. At least, I hope so. I noticed that when the telehub compensation was announced, and the news got around that in fact these telehub owners had *gasp* actually met the Lindens on their own, with no Editorial Hare or other hecklers and haters present, without Jeska and the Telehub Discussion Group, etc., nobody really cared anymore. Perhaps because by that time Aimee and co. were plotting how to have their own interest group, meetings, and compensations LOL.

Yet this silly belief in the need for One-ness persists. This is actually a key reason why Khamon's caricature of me as an adherent of the One Grid the Holy Grid the True Grid (did I get it right Khamon yet this time?) is silly -- because I don't think anything of the kind.

I believe in SL, there are multiple and severe clashes of civilization inherited from real-world cultures and political and religious belief systems and social systems; I believe there is a real spectrum of political belief, values, and hence agendas in SL, and therefore it's absolutely folly to pretend it is One. It's even greater folly to think that the technology and the platform themselves can wash away all differences and strife and make us All Get Along.

Wrong. Indeed, one of the ways in which the leftoid tekkie-wikinista gang has been able to keep in power and foist its views on many of us has been to feign unity and seamlessness in this world. They especially like the part where the seamlessnss leads from them and their vaunted notions of themselves and their ideas...right on through the servers to the Lindens, who of course play a vast, complicated, cunning, and clever political game themselves -- in the way that only wide-eyed Californian Dreamin' innocents who claim to have no ideologies, no agendas, and no politics can do. Heck, give me Alcove I and Alcove II any day, compared to these guys, who will not come clean on what their ideology is other than to look off into the middle distance sometimes and talk about a Better World, or to mumble inanities like "We're empowering groups to affect change".

(Note that my pointed question "empowering WHOM to affect change about WHAT got the answer "TBD" from a Linden lol. What he means is "We're going to create new technologies and social tools that enable us to overthrow centuries of human institutions we view as oppressive and outdated, dump politicians and interest groups we view as evil and corrupt, and undermine large corporations we feel are exploiting the people and wasting resources," and I mean "What do you mean we, white man?")

The faction-fighting of SL is therefore often like cats fighting under the rug...or a muddle...or made even more confusing because the Lindens themselves are anything but One, and have lots of factions and sub-factions among their 60-odd staff and board like any organization.

We've all discussed to death Aimee's Matrix, of course, and of course Aimee's Matrix is an artifact of this One Gridism, oddly enough (though it purports to describe parties in SL) because it makes a caricature of any party but itself, the Platform Party, and of course, the Platform Party at some level has the One Grid the Holy Grid All Hail the Grid as its chief sacrament...except when it talks about open-sourcing..but then it merely means a kind of Mass for Shut-Ins on TV when your relative brings home the Holy Communion to you in a special box...you are still partaking of the sacrament of Techological Holyness where somebody Programmed the Software they open-sourced to you.)

As I've pointed out in the entry "Lordfly's Life," it's helpful to remember that with SL, you don't really have this marvelous global cross-section of people that everyone rambles on and on about, you just have Lordfly. I mean, you just have a lot of North American young men with technical skills, disposable income, a cocky attitude, and more education than places to apply it, with $2000 computers, $37/month DSL lines, $400 PSP programs, and 3-D virtual architectural talents. Far from being an "ad hominem attack," this is just a report. Young men with technical skills and talents tend to have a snarky attitude towards those who don't, and like young men the world over down the ages, tend to follow something like that old joke about being anarchists in their teen years; communists in their youth; liberal democrats in their middle ages; and neo-cons in their old age, etc.  Revolutions aren't just a young man's game though; they are usually about a profoundly conservative backlash to some other, more unsettling liberal grassroots movement just getting going that is more of a threat to the status-quo-ante than anything else.

Anyway, one of the indulgences of the leftoid pagan technocrati of virtual worlds is that they are at the center of the metaverse, they own it, they code it, its theirs, they are right, and the rest of us are just server load tests, chum, blingtards, or, if we manage to overcome these hurdles, evil land barons and exploiters of Teh Ppl. Of course, they no more speak for "teh ppl" than anybody else, but that seldom disturbs them.

The culture of SL for a long time was like a long, dull, but educational afternoon on National Public Radio. Modulated, concerned voices saying intelligent things and talking about Important Topics, with an occasional sound-byte from some war-torn, blood-bathed spot in the world where voices might be at a more frantic pitch. Town halls have been promoted as some kind of amazing democracy, but they actually, in the last year, have been as static as Kabuki Theater. If you look on the old SL history wiki, you'll see these interesting transcripts of SL that make it appear as if people used to sit around with Philip Linden like you might sit around with your next-door-neighbour at the local pub, shooting the shit. There weren't even 40 avs at a lot of these conversations.

But as the world got bigger, the policing got tighter, and Jeska was put in charge to first load up the pre-questions like Brezhnev's aides on the forums, putting in forums-sanitized questions first to take up the time. Then from the floor, more questions could be accepted from IMs only, not called out. Indeed anyone calling out would face possible expulsion. With the limitations of these formats and funnels, the town halls mainly consisted of push-media, with Philip or whoever pushing their latest policy out and taking a few token questions.

The Community Round Table (from whose listserve I am banned as well for arbitrary and abusive reasons which I haven't taken the time to protest) is more loose in the sense that it seemed for a time to accept a give-and-take format where people could call out thoughts and impressions. That era ended quickly.

Several things are happening now. For one, fanboyz like Hiro are dismissing the town halls as passe, past the sell date, and unworkable and unscalable for the world and in urgent need of dumping. No doubt he has in mind creating some sanitized, filtered, voting panel or Group Social Tool Thingie that will enable everyone to...express their undying gratitude and support to Lindens throughout the day, with never a discouraging word being heard. (I use this space once again to marvel that you cannot vote "no" in the SL voting forums).

As "proof" that these town halls are raucous, rowdy, and impossible, Hiro and others cite the event the other day, where 20 avs were expected at a little pre-filtered and feted Community Round Table gathering, but then some wise Linden put the fact of the meeting on the Message of the Day and 140 avs stormed the four-corners with many more getting This Region is Full. That meant that many people with free-floating anger about the end of Dwellopers and all kinds of other issues showed up to complain. Well, great, that's what democracy is for!

The feeling of these meetings is always worse than reading the transcript after (I invite you to compare and contrast this, especially if you were there, by reading the entry about the "region full" below. People feel a lot of stress when a lot of comments scroll by, when they can't keep up with them, when people are responding and calling out. But in reality, this meeting that everyone thought was so impossible had a lot of very important things happening in it -- people raising issues that never get discussed openly like sex in SL (like the old Soviet Union, we have no sex in SL, of course...)

The Lindens used to respond by being really agressive to this and telling people in IMs separately to shut up, or telling them in public to shut up, or moderating more firmly. Given their own claims that these things are zoos, I marvel that they stopped trying to moderate them better. In fact, the Lindens are responsible for a lot of the zooey atmosphere just by not doing the work required to make a topic for the meeting, and insist people stick to it (they get busy and have no time to prepare). So lessons learned: don't hold a free-for-all no-topic meeting unless you want...a free-for-all no-topic meeting.

More and more, the Lindens are going to sequester themselves, shield themselves, and put layers of Mentors, Greeters, Helpers, and Other Assorted FIC and SIC to "manage the mob". Indeed, soon, they'll have "mob enabling technology" as Jesse touchingly called it that might prove more about mob managing technology than enabling (and I'm not sure we want to enable crowds to further their group-think).

All of this is a long-winded intro to today's illustrative lesson in faction-fighting. We had a simple thing to do the other day. I held a public meeting on the schedule. I IM'd hundreds of people in dozens of groups. We had perhaps 12-15 come, but in fact representing different of the factions, if you will, to some extent. Certainly not scientifically! We decided that the topic was so important we had to make sure it had a public hearing, with a real mechanism to hear those who had a lot at stake.

(I could interrupt here to note that the very notion of stake-holding, and the idea that some people have more stake than others in this or that issue or value, has itself been rejected in SL. Of course, now that Aimee is forming a Content Creators' Union, all that shouting and bitching about stakeholders in MJW has died away. Interesting, that.)

That is, as one way to get around the meaningless banter and idiocy and screeching that happens at these town halls as this or that person struggles to the mike, we urged that a panel be convened that would have various experts -- by which we meant *not* RL experts (I fought very hard to get that language removed from the text which crept in later when Gwyn got at it) but inworld experts. RL real estate experts are immaterial to us at this stage of our game, when we have to worry about prims or stealing of land or groups that work still with very game-like rigid mechanisms that have none of the complexity of RL -- in real life, I can't return someone else's prims or group land in the same way etc.) And it's important as I've outlined in other posts here that we make a frank admission that the putative group for which these tools are once again being pulled back and forth (like a worn blanket between a quarrelsome old couple in a bed) -- the group that distributes everything equally -- doesn't exist, except possibly in Neualtenberg, and possibly only in the brains of utopianist tekki wikis.

Honestly, I really want someone to come up with even one more example -- outside the claustrophobic confines of the Bavarian Commie Creampuff Horror -- of a group that decided as one, with, say, 10 parts, to have each of them put in $100 US to buy a sim on the auction, then each put in 1024 or whatever to hold the tier, etc. etc. I don't really think such creatures exist, and we know that, and they know that, yet they keep trying to bring them into being by nerfing tools around their utopian visions, instead of adapting the utopian vision to the realities of the virtual world as it really is taking shape.

This simple little request -- making a request to the Lindens, asking for a panel discussion, suggesting speakers, becomes a hugely contested hotbed of infighting and faction-fighting even among relatively like-minded people precisely because there is at stake now a crucial moment: whether the beta testers, charter members, basics and various other hangers-on in SL are going to accept that their utopian vision of a "lab" and its "research" and its "experiment" is coming to an end, and having to yield to a more commercialized, profit-centered, business model, or whether they are going to continue to devise means to break the backs of business people who invest in the "lab" and keep scratching their eyes out, and forcing them to leave the game sometimes, cling to their utopian vision.

And by this, I don't mean just little factions and claques and cliques of tekkies in the sandbox on their basics screaming out to the Lindens that they have to keep the Dwellopers. (The town hall has an illustrative example of people like Magnum telling everyong pompously that he has "walked around the world" (his few sims? those next door?) in Gorean land and found out that "everybody" wants the developer's incentive to stay. Or Ferrit, the furry guy (not sure what his agenda is) screaming that land barons are evil and they need to keep dwellopers etc, and that only a small faction wants to remove it.

To which I say drily, um, the small faction called "their venture capitalists at LL" or "their accountants" who watch the bottom line? Because honestly, did these basics, tekkies, sandboxers, furries, and fluries, and furies think everyone was going to just keep on subsidizing their game for ever, and ever, as Lordfly touchingly refers to it, the Heat Death of the Sun?

Hell, no.

It's time for these factions to become more articulated, more clear about what they are and represent, and to face the music about what it costs to maintain them. There are always going to be factions. And the give and take of democracy and policy-making not only tolerates factions, it requires them; indeed factions and the expression of opinions are the lifeblood of democracy. They are not to be discouraged, they are not to be dismissed as "divisive," but acknowledged, given the right forums and institutions for expressing their legitimate interests, and heeded.

What this means is that a few of the minority factions like the Platforms and tekkies and such are going to have to stop their class warfare, their dimissal of others with silly caricatures taken out of copies of Pravda from the early 1900s with Mr. Moneybags, and realize what it costs, what it means, what is entailed in running this giant and scary big server farm called Second Life.

What is means is that 20 people in Neualtenberg, or 20 people on Democracy Island, that odious new interest group in our midst that's going to style itself as convenor of others and heap more privileges on itself as a result, or 20 furries, cannot be allowed to decide how these tools will be changed. The Lindens, of course, will decide on their own anyway, likely mimicking or echoing the concerns that the 20 in Neualtenberg already fed them. Still, we who are in factions that actually have more support, even if less voice, will go on insisting that we also have some influence to meet our concerns.

Thus a post like this in which Iron Perth invokes "democracy" (the jeering of W-Hat griefers?) and the "wisdom of the crowd" (the cat-calling of hard-left furries?) as a way to keep secure his own faction (whatever that is) has to be challenged.

It's not "democracy" to overrun a panel that in fact contains people on it who in fact represent others, and not their own interests, because they manage groups within SL, voluntary, self-selected groups who formed communities or rent from private or mainland agents.

In fact to step on those experienced people and insist that we have to sit (as we were supposed to do in the Telehub Discussion group) and listen to non-land owners, and non-group managers with theories about socialism and social engineering is completely untenable.

The "wisdom of the crowd" concept has its place. Let's imagine a thoughtful NPR audience. A New England town hall. An academic lecture hall, etc. These are all places where wisdom  of crowd might shine because they are pre-filtered to be like-minded.

But there isn't like-mindedness in SL. All we share is the desire to log-on. Any similitarity in views ends there for many of us. There can't be an invocation and call for Unity and Saving the World and Thinking of the Children. Instead, there has to be sane and mature awareness, recognition, and management of real differences with real consquences that have a right to exist and not be smoothed out on some tekkie voting feature that doesn't let you vote "no".

Groups in SL

A major flaw in most of the pontificating inworld and on the forums about groups and group land is that the people doing the spouting don't work in groups and don't own grouped land.

Jesse Linden talked in the last town (city?) hall about the "mob enabling tools". Right. There's all this idealistic blather (from Lindens, from Beth Noveck, from Thinkers) about all these nourishing-sounding groups who are going to do all these buzz-wordy things like "leverage their efforts" and "synergize" and stuff.

It's a dirty little secret in SL that the groups on the forums with their own forums are all mostly moribund. Most of them haven't had a post in ages, and usually some desperate soul is trying to gin up some response and action, usually with profound indifference. Neualtenberg limps along, but one senses the heart isn't there -- and with all its beautiful wickedness melting, melting (Ulrika and Kendra have "stepped down from positions of authority") the starch might have just gone out of that Bavarian Commie Horror...Creampuff.

Who has groups in SL? Well, there's the Furries and...um...well...more Furries...and...uh...there's the Goreans. Let's see. Hmm...Isn't there Thinkers? That Book Club?

There really aren't groups in SL. It's all fake. The groups are just one or two really strong-minded individuals, who whip others into shape, and get people into groups so they can collect the dwell and come to events.

I'm all for strong-minded individuals, as you might imagine : )  They are the hope of our civilization : )

Groups are good, too, but we don't really have them. One really basic reason we don't have groups -- or even friends sometimes -- is because we cannot talk in paragraphs. We are like characters in literature who never got to the 19th century novel, but must speak in Shakespearean couplets all the time. The IM boxes are the most crippled form of speech imaginable in a world with all possibilities before it, hobbling it enormously.

If the Lindens merely opened up that IM box to the size it was in TSO, where people spoke more civilly to each other because they could complete their thoughts, they'd have a nicer world.

When I've chaired group meetings, attended group meetings, been on group IMS, it's like being in a violent windstorm with alphabet soup splashing in your face. The text scrolls by and you miss half of it. You have to allow for "text lag" -- somebody says a half of a thing...somebody else says their half of a thing...it intersplices with 2-3 other people...and you struggle to match up the halves..meanwhile trying not to notice 10 blinking IMs on your screen at the top...

This isn't an excuse not to have democracy, which is what people like Hiro Pendragon will do with it, dismissively talking of the "zoo" of town hall meetings. They must need to be moderated, that's all.

Groups suck, because anyone can overthrow them. That is, Jauani Wu can always keep rewriting the charter and putting in silly meat pictures to Metaverse Justice Watch and 33 other people or whatever who might like to seriously have a group are constantly hijacked.

Beth and others have really scary new ideas of "the individual as a danger" and "the group as the democracy" etc. We don't have them, though, so we don't have to be worried...except we do.

Group land is where you get groups. So let's look at that for a minute.

Many of the people discussing the group tools and group land and any kind of land reform in SL have no experience with groups, land, or much of any sort of business at all except minding other people's business.

I'll wager that Pham Neutra does not tier any significant amount of land and that's why he's come up with something that can only be called a pompous "modest proposal" as "modest proposals" are inevitably pompous. His concept hinges on providing "incentive" to barons to develop by giving them tier relief...as if they didn't have 30 days lead time already before they have to pay tier. That's not so great, it's a scramble, but any more, and they'll lolly-gag around while the Lindens have to pay the bills on the damn servers. Somebody is always paying somewhere when socialists get to work on these ideas.

Next, there's the thing that Lee Linden will always tell you, that group land isn't yours, and it's the group's.

Baloney.

We all know that the land in the group is yours. Why? Because you pay tier on it. Often you've paid a part of the purchase price -- if not all of it! So of course it's yours. It's especially yours because you pay tier on it. Nobody at Ravenglass Rentals labours under any Neubergian illusion that they are in a grand collective experiment using Nobody's group land. It's land I bought, and tier and put in a group merely to manage. You group it only to run a business, have advantages for customers, management ease, and the 10 percent bonus. Take that out, you might still group it.

You can go on and on about how group land isn't really my land, but of course it is. Here's how you can tell: the minute I stop paying on it, the Lindens seize it. Hehe. See what I mean? It's not the 218 people in the group, and even those dozen or so who pay tier may only be left with the rump end of it. The bulk of the land is held up by the person paying tier. That's all there is too it. In 90 percent or more of the cases in SL, that tier is held up by one person.

So rather than continuing to punish that one person with more hindrances and hippe commune inconveniences in group tools, the Lindens need to find a way to retain that person in the game.

"If you deed some sqm to a group, that is like having a share in a company. You can't say "OK, I leave" and take some machinery or furniture of that company. And that is a good thing because it would open up to many opportunities for blackmail," says Pham.

Well, in a word...no. It isn't like a share in a company. It's like...um..your land, that you merely put in a kitty, and you'd like to take back, thank you very  much. A share is a share...but you did pay for it and you can sell it out. When you leave, you sell it. Sometimes at a loss. You don't put it in and kiss it good-bye and then imagine that you can take some furniture. That's the obvious point Pham is missing. And the blackmail part comes in not with recognition that it isn't yours, but with refusal by some to recognize that it is yours, when they do something like bork the group and pull tier without warning, subjecting the entire group to a Linden seize of that amount of land arbitrarily -- it was once explained to me that an undertiered group would face the seizure of the most recently purchased land in the group.

That means Officer X pulls out 5120 m2 in tier, and Officer Y suddenly loses land he paid the purchase price for yesterda, as Governor Linden seizes 5120 of it.

But that's the Lindens. They have their own circle. It's not how most people people work it. They view what is in there as theirs, and they take it out as theirs, because they pay tier. People already have rough-and-ready covenants in which they already collaborate with the understanding that anyone who deeds in the group is going to get back theirs. I have this all the time, where a tenant motivated to get a lot more prims will buy land and put it into the group to get the bonus and be able to link it to their rental property. I sign a card, even without Zarf's hash, saying I agree to return it to them and they agree to keep the tier on it, and of course pay for its original purchase price.

This simple fact of life, this actual psychology, this actual reality, is constantly overlooked by Linden social engineers and laptop forums economists, but it's the truth. People group land like putting a hand into a pile-up of hands in a group handshake; they are always ready to take it out whole.

They don't assume their land is um merged into the Vast Vat of Vapourousness, able to be stolen or used by any useless asswipe.

Most cases of projects and groups in SL actually involve one strong individual, or at least one rich individual, who makes the purchase price. Sometimes, he might have help. In rare cases, like the celebrated socialism-on-one-sim Neualtenberg, maybe everybody puts in little equal boxes of purchase price and tier. But most group situations are wildly unequal. There might be somebody with a 512, or they add $1000 to the kitty, but it's carried by a much stronger of the two or three or ten in the project.

It just has to be, given the wild frontier-like nature of SL, its hardships, its hatreds, its harshness, and its havoc.

In fact, this SL situation, while an exaggerated form of RL, tracks RL realities...at least as they are in these United States. Most corporations, projects, non-profits, clubs have one strong person, the CEO, the boss, the executive director, the program director. Democracy -- the most liberal in the world -- is actually made up of many micro-units of what seems like a dictatorship to some folks overseas who are actually steeped in the history of dictatorships, because it contains a strong person at the center of it. In fact, this is just the individual as the bedrock of a civil society, and not a lot more -- because there are numerous checks and balances on him, more than anything, other strong individuals.

In Europe and Asia, this CEO/board model isn't followed or understood in some quarters, especially on the left or in the more authoritarian societies, and there, the corporation, the collective, etc. have greater standard than the individual -- but in fact usually each of these group entities merely has a strong individual in it, too, who gets the group-think to work around him by creating aggressively obedient followers, and invoking the group and the collective good as a kind of a justification for his strong bias and arbitrariness -- something the strong individual of the West, with a different sort of checks and balances operating on him, can't get away with.

That's why when some people contemplate a strong individual coming to the "covenant" situation, they imagine there is a dictator -- someone semi-retired with time on their hands, money, and malice, who is going to run rampant over us all with a 40-sim juggernaut.

All of this fiction comes from lack of RL and SL experience (along with vaunted notions of one's own importance). If I pay the entire purchase price, and pay most of the tier, and I have 25 people in may group who pay 512 each, they aren't going to view me as a dictator and strive to throw me off land I paid for. Why? They have cheap rent and good land LOL. That is, if they do, their tendency would be to take their 512 and walk to another rentals agent. I have a contract situation that spells out law within which I try to be flexible and use discretion and reason, and it works most of the time.

There are only 2-3 people that I've ever had to expel from their actual rental situations, that is, while their rental box has been paid or while their tier was in the group. One was spamming the group, not paying rent, putting a house into inventory because it was in share-with-group, bothering other tenants -- the threshold was systematic, repeated, offensive.  I have a rule you can't spam the group; I have a rule you have to be considerate of neighbours which would cover any type of harassment, and while I don't have a rule that you can't steal the group's houses, well, that's a first-life norm that you hope people would take on board into second life without you having to reprint the Ten Commandments.

Most people who have a dispute with me because I've told them they have too many prims, or they have a spinning sign, etc. end up either changing or refunding. It's that simple. There's no dictatorship.

In one case, very exceptional, I expelled a non-tenant who hadn't broken any rules. This was Gwyn Llewelyn, who left the area and stopped paying rent some weeks ago to do another project. She kept her 512 in the group as some kind of seemingly benevolent support, some "philanthropy" she felt was needed to this "struggling operation" possibly, possibly with good will -- but one often finds it is in short supply when pushed.

After Gwyn held a meeting on the group tools on the calendar without telling those of us who had meet with her the night before, and were in the process of drafting together a group public request to the Lindens about a town hall, and sat still and quiet as notions of "dictatorships" were bandied about and then put on the forums, I felt summarily that she should leave, that she should no longer be lent any credence or credibility by the appearance of tier in my group. Indeed, the time to have asked her to leave voluntarily would have been back when she called me a dictator on the forums...or perhaps last week when she first criticized the SIC and Democracy Island in private convos, then came on here and said duplicitously (as if no one is going to compare notes) that they're all the best and the brightest and just what the doctor ordered.

I'm spelling out this matter because no doubt Gwyn is making the rounds and chuckling with special socialist superiority over "Prokofy being such a dictator he expelled me from the group". I like to discuss these things openly to quench such rumours in the bud : )

Hell, yeah. Like I asked Jauani Wu to leave immediately when he pulled the same crap on the forums, slandering me and claiming I ran a pyramid scheme. It's not about dictatorship. It's about removing people who undermine the very concept of good faith, collaboration, and decency itself.

I work my ass of working group tools and group land and rentals. No one can really imagine the large quantities of shit I have to eat in my chosen virtual profession which I undertake willingly for the sake of learning and understanding how the world works.I make every effort to have fair law and disseminate it and rule on it fairly, within its tiny realm of prims and particles and so forth. To portray this effort of monumental managerial effort as "dictatorship" is just to be a populist demagogue seeking cheap credits from the bleacher seats at Thinkers.

In any event, I know it runs counter to the way the Lindens do things -- to first study the actualities of the world and what people need THEN go about inventing tools -- but I wish they'd do that. They'd see most groups are about a strong individual or two (often a married couple or partnership in the game) and they should figure out how to make it easier for those people to survive, and not how to make the 2 1/2 socialist commune experiments that limp along in the game have more scope.

And yes, despite its protestations, and its removal of Ulrika, etc., Nberg remains socialist on many counts, while continuing to use words like "managed" or "moderate" or "democratic" to mean the same thing.

What would protection be about? Well, people put in tier and money, and don't want it ripped off. So, they need a simple thing: the right to remove officers they themselves have invited. If those officers who don't pay tier are unhappy with that, well they can make their own group and pay the tier, eh?

In those cases where a few got together with donations of equal parts, the miracle of that cooperation already preceded their literal group-forming in SL, was never a product of forced-march commune-tools and is an afterthought. No special feting of it is needed.

The tool most sought after by clubs is the ability to have managers who can return prims, set music URLs, and add to the ban lists. All of these functions are currently done on private islands by the sole owner, when they deed parcels to groups who then have those functions, though they don't have total control over the land.

I see no better solution than having menus exactly like we had in TSO, as crass as all the highfalutin SL'ers see it, which is a panel with all the group's names across it, and little check-off boxes for building privileges, etc. We have yet to hear whether this poses some coding difficulty for the Lindens, but I submit here for what it's worth what Colin Linden once explained to me, astonishly:  it was more work to code the groups to be the communes and distribute everything equally, than it would have been merely to have the founder as king and keep all the proceeds. Now imagine that!

So to recap, we need:

1. The founder's right to chose whether he can remove officers, or whether to have a system of officer recall votes within the officers' ranks only; he must have this right to be able to remove treacherous officers who are a risk to steal land or pull tier. BOTH could be built into the tools, could they not, so we could have a CHOICE?

2. The right to assign to officers or members the right to return prims, but not to sell or move land out of the group; this would be best if the right were limited within the group only to that parcel over which that member had domain, i.e. a rental parcel, part of a larger parcel in which a club was located, etc. so that they couldn't go around causing havoc on others' prims (it at least limits damage). That is, just as avatars names are added to "ban and access" you could add avatars' names to "return prims"?

Lordfly's Life

Hamlet has done a survey of his readers, and while not really supplying much analysis to go with, it's a good an explanation as any of why the forums are filled with snarky, arrogant, experience-ignorant, over-educated (hi, Forseti!), under-employed, gamer-geek FIC 20-something IT inworld architects.

Male: 75.1%
26-35: 35.1%
Under $20,000:    27.3%
United States, East Coast........ 23.8%
IT/Computers......... 36.1%
Over 10 hours a week......... 58.4%
Under $1000....  26.7%
About cool content (games/machinima/builds, etc.)....... 19.7%
Architecture.................. ....................................... 41.9%

The only thing un-Lordfly about all this is that as a midwestern college kid, he's not East Coast and probably no more than 22. Ah, mere details. Since a quarter of readers were in that age range, Hamlet's figures are still on target for explaining why not only the forums -- but the world -- can become really unbearable places at times.

What I have to roll-on-the-floor-laugh about especially is that when I did a straw poll a while back on the forums, with my premise that the forums were filled with, oh, 20-something male geeks with IT training, under-employed with time on their hands, inworld a lot, etc. etc. everybody screeched at me that there were all these, oh, 40-something women who were artists and made $75,000 a year at their fabulous RL jobs. *Cough*

You Can't Enter This Region Because the Server is Full

You can't enter this region because
the server is full.
Veronna Elytis: take a seat and listen razi
The Soapbox: Anshe Trenchmouth is on the soapbox now!
HUDDLES Deluxe Button Bar: HUDDLES Deluxe Button Bar, version 0.8.1.
Cocoanut Koala: hey magnum, i didn't know you were a vampire!
The Soapbox: Vague Speculaas is on the soapbox now!
Tateru Nino: I figure we've got about five minutes or so to act like children before things settle enough to kick off.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Robin Linden: if you'd like to speak please click on the soapbox to get a number
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Robin Linden: we'll call people as their turn comes up[
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Vague Speculaas: why is the soapbox speaking?
Robin Linden: Vague, can you please wait your turn?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Veronna Elytis: have you clicked jan
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Vague Speculaas: what am i doing?
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Renee Ingmann: This is crazy mixed up
Vague Speculaas: did i do something wrong?
Jeska Linden: Thanks for coming out everyone - we're waiting the last few people from the last location to appear.
Jan Bjornson: No. Not now. Should I?
Jesse Linden: more are incoming...
Veronna Elytis nods
Jeska Linden: Once everyone is here, we'll use the soapbox to line up the speaker queue
Veronna Elytis: you know what info we need
Tateru Nino: Did anyone leave a note telling them where we would be?
Ares Desmoulins: hey tal
Ares Desmoulins: journey to get here huh?
Midtown Bienenstich: It's official Lindens, this is now a City Hall meeting, no longer TOwn :/
Raavi Mann: Let me do the talking, OK?
Jan Bjornson: I know, what feature we want.
Veronna Elytis: o.k raavi go ahead
Jeska Linden: We don't have a topic for this week, so come on up and let us know what's on your mind.
Cocoanut Koala: oh alaisai!
The Soapbox: It is Cocoanut Koala's turn to speak, please take the floor
Jeska Linden: First up is Cocoanut Koala!
Cocoanut Koala: you just made me remember i haven't taken that pic yet!
Cocoanut Koala: why is the soapbox asking for me
The Soapbox: You are in the queue to speak. There are 7 people ahead of you after the current speaker has finished.
Cocoanut Koala: i mean, we haven't started anything yet
Midtown Bienenstich: SoapBox <3 Cocoanut
Veronna Elytis: i have to ask them about a different matter
Dougal Jacobs: its an open floor
You: no Jeska just said step up
The Soapbox: Cocoanut Koala is on the soapbox now!
Jeska Linden: Sorry, we don't have a topic this week, so it's up to ya'll to bring up what's been on your minds :)
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Cocoanut Koala: but
Cocoanut Koala: oh!
Cocoanut Koala: no wonder I don't know what the topic is.
Cocoanut Koala: In that case, I yield to the next speaker.
Renee Ingmann: LMAO Coco
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Jeska Linden: Ok, next up
Cocoanut Koala: yes ma'am
The Soapbox: It is Anshe Trenchmouth's turn to speak, please take the floor
Jeska Linden: Anshe Trenchmouth's turn
The Soapbox: Anshe Trenchmouth is on the soapbox now!
Anshe Trenchmouth: hi
Flying Fox Deer Buck Plush: Meep?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Flying Fox Deer Buck Plush: *sharpens his antlers*
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Anshe Trenchmouth: i like big butts and i can not lie
Anshe Trenchmouth: you other brothers cant deny
Personal Chat Recorder 1.1-XPM: A recording session has now been started. If you can hear this, I can hear you!!!
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Anshe Trenchmouth: that when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist
Pyrii Akula: ??
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Aliasi Stonebender chuckles.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Cocoanut Koala: i shouldn't have yielded
katykiwi Moonflower: what a waste
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Renee Ingmann: ROTFL
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: Shh... !
katykiwi Moonflower: sanctioned griefing
Vague Speculaas: well that wasnt a very good speech at all
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Jeska Linden: Ok, that's not really appropriate
Bedpan Unknown: but it is a good song
Togra Pierterson: I need some examples before I go :o
Renee Ingmann shouts: Mentors lack of professionalism
Midtown Bienenstich: Can I go?
Akurei Sieyes: Shazbot!
Buck Spinnaker: where's the eject handle?
Anshe Trenchmouth: and a round thing in your face
The Soapbox: It is Magnum Serpentine's turn to speak, please take the floor
Jet Hamsun: ok
Multi Gadget v1.33.2 by Timeless Prototype
Anshe Trenchmouth: ok I'm done
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme shouts: bad planning in blumfield
Prokofy Neva takes no responsibility for content of tenants
Veronna Elytis: Hey Jet
Renee Ingmann: I have a quick question are our questions directed at the Lindens in particular or just generally speaking Robi??
Magnum Serpentine: Ok
Magnum Serpentine: I do have a real topic
Jet Hamsun: hey
Magnum Serpentine: DI
Jet Hamsun: /color clear
Jeska Linden: Go ahead Magnum, click on the box
Magnum Serpentine: First of all, There are a lot of SIM owners who are extremely hacked off at you right now
Renee Ingmann: Alrighty thanks
Magnum Serpentine: And from walking around the world I can tell you the view to get rid of it is in the extreme minority
Terra WARP 2.1 whispers: Heads-up display is OFF.
Buck Spinnaker: i hope you all realize that this inappropriate behavior is what keeps open meetings from happening
Magnum Serpentine: A lot of Sim Owners asked you about long term plans on DI and you assured them it would be around a while so they planned their business on this
Magnum Serpentine: Now you all went back on your word and they are left in the lurch
Magnum Serpentine: My advice
Magnum Serpentine: My Advice
Pugcharlie Reymont: maare you here?
Vague Speculaas: you're an angry fellow
Magnum Serpentine: is to completely ignore the general Forums, and listen to what the sim owners want
cinda Hoodoo: Developers Incentive
Magnum Serpentine: Because it is only a small vocal minority who want you all to get rid of the DI
Magnum Serpentine: I know I walked around and talked to people
Blue Linden: you know we don't monitor external blogs ;)
Magnum Serpentine: And now a ton of Sim owners are in the lurch
Magnum Serpentine: Thank you for letting me speak
Selkit Diller shouts: Why exactly is the developer's incentive being removed without a backup plan in place to assist the true developers and true communities?
Magnum Serpentine: Remember
Magnum Serpentine: only a Small Vocal Minority want it gone
Selkit Diller shouts: And not simply the money-ball/camping-chair/casino types?
Pugcharlie Reymont: ty
You: a small minority called "Linden's venture capitalists and their accountants" ? lol
Dougal Jacobs: respond please
Renee Ingmann: Respond Robin
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: yes
Selkit Diller: Uh...
Selkit Diller: So far, the developer's incentive rewarded a community of approximately 30,000 individuals with 4 sims.
cinda Hoodoo: so what if anything is in place to keep business ventures in SL in a forward momentum ?
The Soapbox: It is Jade Lily's turn to speak, please take the floor
cinda Hoodoo shouts: wait wait wiat
Selkit Diller: Phased out without a replacement in sight.
cinda Hoodoo shouts: thats not a good enuff answer
Jade Lily: the region is full, robin
Xandi Mars: i dont think money chairs do anything for the game except line pockets of a few
Jeska Linden: Jade, it's your turn
Jade Lily: i can't approach the box
Jeska Linden: Try now ?
Jade Lily: i'll just ask a question. it's not really an issue, but it is community related
cinda Hoodoo shouts: so what would make anyone want to buy a sim or keep one now ?
Jade Lily: What role will Second Life play in the upcoming social revolution that Beth Noveck writes about in her "A Democracy of Groups" paper?
Lexa Pierterson: for fun?
Selkit Diller shouts: Cinda; True community and the willingness to support one. Altruistically, of course.
You: A non-supportive one we hope! That is one scary theory!
Jeska Linden: There you go Jade.
The Soapbox: Jade Lily is on the soapbox now!
Jade Lily: oof
Jade Lily: sure. sorry, robin :)
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jade Lily: beth says that what was initially an information revolution is becoming a social revolution
Jade Lily: technology is empowering groups
Jade Lily: we're seeing social software popping up everywhere, etc
Jesse Linden: right
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: Technology is also said to be breaking down communication in a column I read by a creative director at SEGA, and it's true to some point
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jade Lily: what role do you foresee second life playing in the empowerment of groups?
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Jesse Linden: well obviously groups are going to be a critical component of Second Life moving forward
Jesse Linden: we'll try to find ways to leverage collective activity and provide tools to make social interaction easier
Selkit Diller: Districto; The world I work with initially sprouted from an online community with 30,000 hosted artists/individuals, and likely hundreds of thousands of users. Community is a vast part of it.
Jesse Linden: its a huge issue though
Jesse Linden: as Beth's paper points out
aewyn Sondergaard: the sit and veg chairs i think work against social activity
Jade Lily: it was a vague question, and not totally relevant to this meeting anyway. we can chat about it later :)
Selkit Diller: aewyn, they are a horrid abuse of the (soon defunct) developer's incentive anyways.
Pyrii Akula: Events like these show how difficult it can be to gather a community in one spot too. Look at the difficulty we have attending this event.
Jesse Linden: im sure Second Life will have a role to play enabling social collaboration
Jesse Linden: to affect change
cinda Hoodoo: "effect"
Gerami Fizz: ...
You: change for *whom*?
The Soapbox: It is Pyrii Akula's turn to speak, please take the floor
Jade Lily: but it wasn't an attack on linden lab. isn't that what the community roundtable is about? ;)
Jade Lily: thanks, jesse!
Jesse Linden: TBD Prokofy
The Soapbox: Pyrii Akula is on the soapbox now!
Schwartz Guillaume: change for everybody but Prokofy
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2006/01/whats_wrong_wit.html
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Pyrii Akula is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Pyrii Akula: Hiyas, Do I only get the 1 question cuz I have 2 or 3 little questions
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Vague Speculaas: Hey prokofy can you stop spamming us with that link please?
Jeska Linden: Go ahead Pyril
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: All community based (I hope) And I hate choosing
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: When Jade stops spamming us with "Democracy Island"? Sure
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Pyrii Akula is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Blue Linden: RESPECT THE BOX PLEASE :)
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Cherry Mason is online
Pyrii Akula: 1 is a quicky, it's a moot poitn but I think the community would like to hear something positive about the lazureus divine issue, I see new sims with fresh land for buying, and well, there he is again.
Cocoanut Koala: hear hear!
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: I've heard that it's a matter of "waiting it out" but I think something positive might be nice for those of us affected
Dale Harmison: hi all
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Dale Harmison: what is this place?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: I reluctantly agree that I'd like to hear something positive too
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Schwartz Guillaume: Townhall meeting, now sit
Sherrade Stirling: for anyone (living under a rock lol) that don't know he's the "impeach bush" guy
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: not a big fan of censorship but it's getting out of control :(
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Dale Harmison: hi all
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: *nods* Feel free to rephrase, as long as the point is clear
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Vague Speculaas: someone should really fix the box
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Seven Wonders Brownlee Apartments $75: Store rented for 7 days at Brownlee Apartments...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Selkit Diller: llSubStringIndex is your friend with listens.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
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Schwartz Guillaume: if there isn't going to be a zoning board, people shouldn't get to complain when something they don't like goes up
The Soapbox: Shhh...
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Shaun Altman: Robin: how about this.. how about no land set for sale with a universally ugly build on it
Gerami Fizz: My opinion is that if the community at large finds it offensive, something should be done.
Shaun Altman: OR! BETTER! no land for sale w/ anything on it other than LL trees
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Sherrade Stirling: your point is understood, but might there be any tools in the works that could make everyone happy? are things like that being considered or worked on ?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Midtown Bienenstich: Controlling Land Prices?.. how communist :/
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jade Lily thinks she shouldn't be able to hear muted objects
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Cocoanut Koala: There are easy solutions to this matter, that don't involve any slippery slope or trampling of resident rights to free speech and expression.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Aliasi Stonebender: but, shaun, what if you're actually selling a build? that doesn't work so well.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: Well does what he's doing constitute as greifing, because people have complained agressively about the signs. But I'll leave that because I thinkt here's no answer in sight. My only other question is dwell. I work for the Shelter which helps new people b
Shaun Altman: Ailasi: hmm :\
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: Yeah, there is no easy answer to this one
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Ares Desmoulins: he's free to sell his land for as little or as much as he would like, and likewise he is free to put whatever he likes on his land
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: It's a sticky issue no matter how u look at it
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Felix Sholokhov: not to take an opposite stance, but it is freedom of speach and freedom of setting his own price for the land, I prevent him from entering and buying in my sims by just banning him from the sim when I first take control over it
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Sherrade Stirling: I'd love tools where i could ignore aperson's objects or something along those lines
The Soapbox: Shhh...
cinda Hoodoo: like camping chairs ???????
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: by running events, but the dwell issue is becoming a hot topic between me and the owners as it might mean cutting back on our events
Midtown Bienenstich: guys, let's do the V-chip.. there's a proposition to create an option to block objects/textures from a specific user. LETS ENABLE IT!
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Aliasi Stonebender: (well, "find Lazarus Divine in RL and punch him in the face" is promising, but I'll be good.)
The Soapbox: Shhh...
RedRose Groshomme: There sould be a standard as to what can be set out.. this is a world in whice we come to relax and meet new ppl he only brings in drama from the outside that doesnt relate to anyone here..
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jeska Linden: Shh, please just the person who has the floor
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Selkit Diller: Remind me to code you Lins a soapbox that ignores the Linden last-name...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Sherrade Stirling: i thought the question was turned out to the community, sorry
The Soapbox: Shhh...
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Pyrii Akula: What will happen to well... good users of dwell that are trying to reward the community or help it?
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Pyrii Akula: Will we have an alternative way of being rewarded for helping the community?
Pyrii Akula: Because we want to run it for old and new people alike
cinda Hoodoo: ya like taht will fly
Cocoanut Koala: because it doesn't work
Schwartz Guillaume: for new people specifically, cash is an issue
Pyrii Akula: That's what the shelter is for =P
Selkit Diller: A cover fee of L$20 takes up 40% of a newbie's stipend.
Selkit Diller: Not cool.
cinda Hoodoo: nope
Renee Ingmann: people wont pay or dont want to pay
RedRose Groshomme: why charge people to attend something you are throwing.. you dont charge people to attened Real Life parties.. so why in here
Pyrii Akula: If dwell is gone we might have to stick to just sponsor money
Midtown Bienenstich: People would pay, if they can make money.
Buck Spinnaker: they won't pay unless everyone charges and there's the rub
Midtown Bienenstich: L$ wont cover tier
Midtown Bienenstich: L$ 1
Aliasi Stonebender: on the other hand, given it's a free basic account, five bucks gets you plenty of dough; the problem as I see it is nto financial, it's cultural.
Cocoanut Koala: in other games? yes - and i have seen it work once. only for the wealthy, like the auctioning lindons works here.
Selkit Diller: L$ does not cover tier, period, unless you're a *huge* dwellwhore.
Dougal Jacobs: I agree with Aliasi, the current idea is "I deserve to be rewarded for attending"
Pyrii Akula: The dwell had it's bad and it's good, unfortunatly I work for one of the good uses, and well, it means we have to rethink the way we run
Schwartz Guillaume: why is "welfare state" bad
aewyn Sondergaard: until you owners get more creative about "events" you won't get people to come to them in the numbers that you want anyway
Aliasi Stonebender: you get people used to bread and circuses, money for nothing and their chicks for free, and they get right grouchy not having that anymore.
Ares Desmoulins would also avoid charge sims
Renee Ingmann: hear hear Schwartz
Selkit Diller: Agreed, Magnum.
Jade Lily: maybe we should talk about how to teach new residents how to contribute something to the community, so that they can afford to attend events
Cocoanut Koala: people figure they already ARE paying, when they pay to the Lindens.
Pyrii Akula: I mean we can still run, but will we be able to get support via the new system, I don't even understand WAHT the new system is
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: go jade go
Cocoanut Koala: My answer to that: If you want residents, yes.
cinda Hoodoo: perhaps the Lindens would cut back our land fees so we could afford to be more "creativer" :)
Selkit Diller: Adam, I build and operate four sims. There is not one money chair, casino, or "Get paid to be around" activity, period. Untrue.
Jeska Linden: Or specific behaviors?
Gerami Fizz: What's stopping people from inventing more creative ways of making money at an event they host?
You: Jade, why should people have to sit in building classes and create in order to become full-fledged citizens?
Renee Ingmann: Exactly Jade
Renee Ingmann: They can be full fledged citizens
Schwartz Guillaume: Prokofy: what should they have to do instead?
Renee Ingmann: but all people like to feel like they are contributing
Schwartz Guillaume: sit in money chairs and buy off LindeX?
Selkit Diller: Adam; Again untrue. We run one of the largest non-casino areas and still manage without paid-to-attend cheaptricks.
Seifer Kennedy is offline
You: Buy Lindens on the Lindex?
Pyrii Akula: I'm lost int he sea of discussion
You: and when there are better group tools, get a job?
Pyrii Akula capsises by a large wave
Selkit Diller: Adam; Because we built our community altruistically for the people to use as they saw fit. We were true developers.
Matt Enfield: They are paying you monthly fees to be in this world, so they shouldn't have to pay more to simply go to an event.
Cocoanut Koala: those places wouldn't be popular if they weren't . . . in fact, popular.
Jade Lily: i'm tiered to zero right now. it's not getting in the way of my creativity. there are sandboxes
Renee Ingmann: Exactly Matt
Cocoanut Koala: exactly matt
Selkit Diller: Adam; That's the point. We are NOT a business.
Shaun Altman: Matt: then they shouldn't expect entertainment content from residents
RedRose Groshomme: we have a monopoly growing.. face it
Selkit Diller: We are NOT in it to make money, we are NOT in it for gain, we are in it for community.
Shaun Altman: they're paying the monthly fee (sometimes) for platform functions
Shaun Altman: NOT for resident content
Renee Ingmann: Wait wait, who is not a business
Matt Enfield: Why would I pay to be in a world that doesn't offer any kind of entertainment?
You: Selkit, how do you think LL will pay for their servers and staff? if they just keep giving it out for free?
Cocoanut Koala: well, tell them that, shaun
Selkit Diller: Prok; We brought in a record number of referrals for them.
Aliasi Stonebender: Why would you pay to use SL at all if you don't own land?
Shaun Altman: Matt: there is entertainment offered, it's offered by the residents
Pyrii Akula: Well I think I also need to know WHAT the new system is. As a maker of... stuff, I'm wonding if by creative incentives they mean making items.
Selkit Diller: In our first month, 9,000.
You: Selkit: that doesn't pay the bills, it's not enough, those are all basics.
Schwartz Guillaume: Selkit, yet all those referrals stay on your four sims and maybe a couple others
Selkit Diller: Schwartz; Hardly. We advertise other sims and cross-sponsor.
Cocoanut Koala: good luck with that, Robin
Midtown Bienenstich: I also agree with Gwen.
Selkit Diller: We encourage diversity, we encourage others to move out and see the world.
The Soapbox: It is Vague Speculaas's turn to speak, please take the floor
Midtown Bienenstich: OUr economy is limited.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: this is impossible to folo
Vague Speculaas: ok i wont sit on the box because it will be spamming
Selkit Diller: And conversely, we are *not* a fur-only "elite".
Blue Linden: hey teep :)
Teeple Linden: Hey!
Pyrii Akula: I have no idea what anyone was trying to get across in reply to my question, too much chatter, can't read it all
Renee Ingmann: speak
Renee Ingmann: let vague speek
Vague Speculaas: Alright I would like to discuss the adult theme within this game
Jeska Linden: Pyril - the chat log will be send to the mailing list.
Buck Spinnaker: that should shut down some email systems :)
Vague Speculaas: Second life is one of the greatest sandboxes in the world with a promise to give you tools to build script and follow any social engineering you feel like
Vague Speculaas: This unimaginable freedom brings out some interesting aspects
Vague Speculaas: And this is a question to linden lab on their position of the adult themes that crop up from this freedom
Vague Speculaas: and what their stand is
Vague Speculaas: Such things as the goreans, whose theme is enslavement of females and their manipulation
aewyn Sondergaard: thank you !!!
Vague Speculaas: The baby furs, that borders on pedophilia
Vague Speculaas: Now fetishes should not be prosecuted against, if you have a predseposition to people in fur suits, it's ok
Lexa Pierterson: careful..that is a bit judgemental. It's all consensual
Vague Speculaas: but when pedophilia gets involved, i don't think it shouldn't be allowed
Selkit Diller: Er, yeah, was about to point that out.
Selkit Diller: Lexa.
Vague Speculaas: On top of that, the rampant prostitution, that is illegal everywhere in the world
Pyrii Akula: I think witht he freedom the internet gives, you're gonna see a much more exxagerated proportion of diversities. I see far more BDSM etc stuff in SL, but also a huge uptake by furries.
Ares Desmoulins: not everywhere
Vague Speculaas: but is somehow seen as a legitimate business venture in sl
cinda Hoodoo: yes theres out and out whorehouses here and yer on us about camping chairs ???
Ares Desmoulins: actually in less places is it illegal than you think
Lexa Pierterson: This IS fantasyland
Jeska Linden: Content, role playing and other behavior is something that Linden Lab is not concerned with unless it crosses the line into 'broadly offensive' per our Comunity Standards.
Vague Speculaas: Ok how about united states
Selkit Diller: Vague; Prostitution is legal in Nevada.
Pyrii Akula: Normally they represent a tiny minority of internet activities, but I think it's certain communities have found refuge in SL so you're seeing a community growing in SL
Midtown Bienenstich: Exactly
Vague Speculaas: But is it ok?
Midtown Bienenstich: And SL cannot be compared to the United States.
Selkit Diller: Vague; Is enforcing your own morality on others okay?
Pyrii Akula: The problem is, SL has no closed doors
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is not a state of the US.
Pyrii Akula: SL has no privacy atm
Renee Ingmann: they are not the moral police, but I do agree about borderline pedophilia
Vague Speculaas: No I am asking what linden lab's position is
Aliasi Stonebender: SL is *in* a state of the US. California.
RedRose Groshomme: I agree with the pedofiela thing though.. was in a discussion event and it came up.. its kinda scary to think that people on her partake of it
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: sl is a bizness
Ares Desmoulins: vegas it's a-ok, i happen to connect in amsterdam once in a whle, should i be bound by the rules and regulations of another country in SL when i myself am not bound to it in RL?
Vague Speculaas: Also what does linden lab consider
Raavi Mann: Hey Vague - newsflash! This is NOT real world!
RedRose Groshomme: Yaakov
Ashmuel Gould: Precicely, I really don't see what the problem is.
Midtown Bienenstich: I meant that SL cannot be considered an extension of the US.
cinda Hoodoo: you can controll what happens in your own land or club, you have to keep your own standards high
Vague Speculaas: What does linden lab consider "broadly offensive" when linden lab's rules are so liquid and not written in stone anywhere
RedRose Groshomme: doesnt matter if ther are no children.. The simple fact that they par take in it is scary to me
aewyn Sondergaard: the enslavement and misstreatment of women by the goreans is specifically against the TOS if you read your TOS carefully
Jade Lily: ah, the gr8 db8
Jeska Linden: Vague - the community standards outline where the boaundaries are.
Schwartz Guillaume: why can't it? other websites are bound by the laws of the states and countries that their servers reside in
Lexa Pierterson: There is alot that happens here that people would not do in their real lives. That is part of the enjoyment of it.
Selkit Diller: Red; They tend to disturb me too, but our local policy in FN is "Live and let live".
Vague Speculaas: Also is it ok for people to pursue pedophilic activities? Even though they consent to it
Lexa Pierterson: Goreanss do not mistreat the women involved in it
Midtown Bienenstich: Schwartz, Linden Lab corp is bound by Cali Laww.
RedRose Groshomme: What if someone on here goes after a "child" on here and gets his/her kicks off it greatly.. then decides to take it out of SL.. to the real world..
Lexa Pierterson: goreans do not go around capturing woment and forcing them into that role.
Vague Speculaas: And is prostitution A-OK in linden lab's view?
Midtown Bienenstich: but to declare SL, as in our culture, as part of the United States exclusively, is very arrogant.
Jan Bjornson: In this world noone can be enslaved, if not want to. So, what is the point?
RedRose Groshomme: you cant tell me that will not affect things.. because it will
Selkit Diller: Hear-hear, Mid.
Schwartz Guillaume: RedRose: what if someone kills a stripper in GTA and gets his/her kicks and decides to do it in the real world
Raavi Mann: Precisely, Jan
Renee Ingmann: see I agree totally with the pedophilia bit, thats wrong, but if some woamn consents to prostitution or to be a slave, thats her business
Schwartz Guillaume: we've had this argument before regarding other games
Pyrii Akula: What'as with allt he United States talk, I get the feeling people consider this to be a US only game
Felix Sholokhov: if you don't like what's taking place somewhere, don't go, you're not being forced to attend
aewyn Sondergaard: goreans's tell the women that they are inferior to men >> that in and of itself is misstreatment
Renee Ingmann: Good point Schwartz, thanks for the different view
Selkit Diller: Pyrii; Blame Canada for me.
RedRose Groshomme: Things that happen here dont always stay in SL.. Good and Bad... and I think we need to think of that one
Pyrii Akula thinks "game" is not the right word
Vague Speculaas: Hate is broadly offensive in just about any common sense individual
Jesse Linden: these are all issues that have been dealt on the Internet at large
Aliasi Stonebender: Magnum, you keep saying that. I do not believe it means what you think it means.
Lexa Pierterson: No, they do not say inferior.....they say it is a male dominated society
Lexa Pierterson: women have different roles than men
cinda Hoodoo: oh pulease Robin
aewyn Sondergaard: they say inferior
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: and how ;many men are female here?
Vague Speculaas: They were dealt with, however linden labs doesn't have a creal stance on these isssues
Lexa Pierterson: do not attack what you do not understsand
Jan Bjornson: And you believe that, aewyn?
Renee Ingmann: HA Jeanne
Aliasi Stonebender: There's real servers in California, and real people with real badges who will really shut down things if a law is broken.
Midtown Bienenstich: Okay, I was arguing Vague's opinion that 'Prostitution should be illegal here, as in the US" -- that is basically saying we abide by US tradition.
Ares Desmoulins: there is no illegal activites going on in the game
Jade Lily: why should it be illegal?
Raavi Mann: I have one suggestion for you all - you don't like it? Leave or do not look
Ares Desmoulins: as it is all virtual, it makes it immune to US and international law
aewyn Sondergaard: i believe that it is a very very bad thing to propagate the demeaning treatment of women in SL when it is such a huge problem in rL
Pyrii Akula: I think SL has become a platform for people to try new things, but there is a high proportion of "adult" themes going on in SL. While this is nice, some people I think would prefer a nice divide between the 2, not the intermix we have.
cinda Hoodoo: so its all make believe ????
Schwartz Guillaume: Ares: sharing a movie on Bittorrent is all virtual
Schwartz Guillaume: but the RIAA doesn't agree with you
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: its a choice here
Vague Speculaas: Also, things like pedophilia are offensive, however you said that if its between two consensual people, their fantasies can go wild, are you saying that pedophilia is ok if they are between two consented individuals?
Ares Desmoulins: that's absolutely different
Renee Ingmann: well if this is prostitution then what about all the 900 numberss, wouldnt that be the same thing, so no I dont think this is prostituion in SL terms
Jeska Linden: Pyril - that is why we have two dfferent 'ratings' for SL - M and PG
Jade Lily: it would be the woman's choice. what's demeaning about it?
Ares Desmoulins: i could write a story right now bout ANYTHING, and it wuld be protected
Felix Sholokhov: two consentual adults, yes
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: right
Renee Ingmann: exactly Yaakov
Pyrii Akula: But M land is only a tiny proportion of SL and is expensive to buy land for.
Lexa Pierterson: There are some women that live a gorean lifestyle RL and would not live any other way
Lexa Pierterson: that is not abusive...it is called free choice
Dougal Jacobs: Agreed, can we close this argument? its getting into individual beliefs and away from "how it affets Secondlife"?
You: promoting slavery of women even if "consent" is involved is still not a boon to civilization and there are many troublesome aspects to it for democracies.
Midtown Bienenstich: exactly, if two concensual adults in SL, want to do something like that, then they should have the right too.
Dougal Jacobs: affects*
Jeska Linden: This allows for local communities to maintain the type of behavior and activity they wish within a specific estate/region.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: my choice
Jan Bjornson: I'm here for 4 months now an never encountered such enslavement. So, SL seems to be big enough to avoid it.
Veronna Elytis: Hello Admiral Veronna Elytis of the republic starfleet, i was just wondering what plans are set for the futur regarding prim limits for vehicals made in sl, the current limit is 30, will this be increased at any time to allow bigger and better builds ?
Midtown Bienenstich: Next Speaker!
You: We cannot be certain of how free it is in a coercive online environment with anonymous strangers.
Selkit Diller: Veronna, might want to get into the speaker queue.
Veronna Elytis: damn whoops
Ares Desmoulins: if a woman willingly lets herself be enslaved, how should it be illegal or banned?
Ares Desmoulins: or a man for that mattter
aewyn Sondergaard: it is wrong for SL to promote the gorean lifestyle and the demeaning of women by allowing them to maintain their activities here
You: Ares, it's our right to question how free her choice is too, just as she has a free choice.
RedRose Groshomme: I have a suggestion.. if people dont like what goes on in here then they can go to another land.. and people that want to take it far to psycotic measures *mesured by my brain* can go to sociolotron :)
Veronna Elytis: had that on a notecard and forgot i had it on ctrl +c
Vague Speculaas: So I assume this is what I'm getting: As long as the individuals consent, no matter how far off their fetish or fantasy is, it will be allowed under the SL law?
RedRose Groshomme: *game rather
Selkit Diller: This entire line of discussion is simply a matter of "Conservative opinion VS General community"...
Ares Desmoulins: aewyn, wrong by who's standards?
cinda Hoodoo: its consentual ensalvement..what ever blows yer skirtup
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: what about racism ? would sl outlaw hitler land?
Lexa Pierterson: pffftspfffts......it is no different than how men used to treat women years ago
Selkit Diller: Jeanne; They already do.
RedRose Groshomme: I would hope so Jean
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ok
Dougal Jacobs: This argument will not end as it involves beliefs very close to peoples hearts. There is no definite right or wrong. I motion to close.
Ares Desmoulins: What's next? are you going to say gays are immoral and ban tehm to?!?
Jade Lily: if anyone wants to hear more about how law should be applied in virtual worlds, i recommend the videos located on the following page:
Jade Lily: http://nyls.edu/pages/3903.asp
Midtown Bienenstich: I second motion.
Renee Ingmann: second
You: What's great is that there are so many more people in the world now, and not just one opinion prevails on these issues.
Matt Enfield: Agreed Doug
Pyrii Akula: As long as it's legal and both are consenting (Easy to just TP away if not) then I think any practice is fine in SL as long as it's kept private
Selkit Diller: I second Dougal.
cinda Hoodoo: i second it
Schwartz Guillaume: Ares: slippery slope
Jan Bjornson: aewyn
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: good
Cocoanut Koala: fourthed
Matt Enfield: yes
Dougal Jacobs: Indeed
aewyn Sondergaard: racicsm is demeaning people of other races, the same rule needs to be applied to the rights of women
You: And if people would like to see an antidote to nysl.edu they can read my blog: )
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes
Vague Speculaas: What I feel is going on, that SL allows anything to go on, until someone complains. If no one complains then it's a free for all. On top of that people sometimes complain about things that are not broadly offensive, but are to their moral views, and ther
Vague Speculaas: therefore dealt with swiftly
The Soapbox: It is Veronna Elytis's turn to speak, please take the floor
Midtown Bienenstich: Vague, you were closed
Schwartz Guillaume: she's finishing
Schwartz Guillaume: give her a moment
Midtown Bienenstich: oh
Midtown Bienenstich: my bad.
Veronna Elytis: yer im here
Veronna Elytis waves
Selkit Diller: Hop on up on 'ye olde noisy soapbox.
cinda Hoodoo: a big hand for Vague she made some good points !
Selkit Diller: I'll respectfully decline, Cinda.
Vague Speculaas: I am not saying that I prosecute people with fetishes, or their sexual orientations, that is fully legal
Jan Bjornson: I'm a girl, too, but noone can enslave me here. If one tries, I leave that person or report abuse.
Veronna Elytis: sorry laggin a littl
Vague Speculaas: I have another question, aside from the adult theme
Renee Ingmann: Vague, step down Hun
Vague Speculaas: this has nothing to do with the adult theme anymore
You: Could we get to the rest of the queue?
Dougal Jacobs: Please, many other would like a turn.
Vague Speculaas: what does the linden labs do about copyright infringement
Renee Ingmann: Vague, they already called the next speaker
Midtown Bienenstich: send ther to Gorean!
Jade Lily: email the lindens later
Bedpan Unknown: Ooh but I'd love an answer to this one
Jade Lily: er, use the hotline
Jade Lily: :)
Vague Speculaas: This is a serious question. I see a lot of products in the sl market, that is based off of copyrighted things in real life.
You: start by reading what they already wrote about takedown notices and such?
Midtown Bienenstich: read the TOS!
Bedpan Unknown: When someone scans the back of a playing card, uploads it as a rug, and charges L$100, what happens.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "based off" is not a problem ;)
Vague Speculaas: These things being star wars themed products, stargate, and anything else based off of real life
Renee Ingmann: call the fbi Vague
Vague Speculaas: should it be allowed?
Jade Lily: semantics, gwyn
Jade Lily: :)
Vague Speculaas: is just my question
Selkit Diller: Vague; Fan derivative works are legal.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a difference between "trademarks" and "copyright" — not semantics.
Selkit Diller: Provided they are not remarketed.
Vague Speculaas: Fan work is legal, until they make profit from it
Tateru Nino: Copyright, Vague? Or Trademark? Different things.
derek Franklin: i think the star_foo folks understand thier products are enrichened by this exposure.. not that that applies to all the infringement here...
Veronna Elytis looks at his watch
Kaboom Pow: hmmm...this slave thing sounds interesting...how does one get involved? :)
Vague Speculaas: Star Wars™
Raavi Mann: Vague - depends on the country
Selkit Diller: As the L$ is not a marketable currency save in private trade (Gifts), the legality is pretty plain.
Jade Lily: i stand corrected, then :)
Aenea Christensen grins at Kaboom
Jeska Linden: Ok, next speaker please!
Vague Speculaas: i guess no answer then
Midtown Bienenstich: seconds, thirds,, fourths, Jeska
Renee Ingmann: they answered you Vague, they said to file a complaint
Dougal Jacobs: Indeed
Vague Speculaas: That is only about copyright infringement within the game
Veronna Elytis: cant enter...full server
Raavi Mann: She would need to file complaints about 25% of items in SL then, Renee
Dougal Jacobs: Same laws apply
derek Franklin: the owners of the copyright have to file.
Jeska Linden: There you go Veronna :)
Schwartz Guillaume: think of it as a virtual Chinatown where there's counterfeits of everything but it's all so shoddily-made that nobody cares
Veronna Elytis: sorry im laggina little
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: racsist?
derek Franklin: hehe, word, Schwartz.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol, RL Hong Kong
Bedpan Unknown: I hope Green Day doesnt find out I have full songs of theirs in my inventory.
Felix Sholokhov: there are many in here who will get hit hard if some RL coporations enter SL
Vague Speculaas: There are some very obvious things
Veronna Elytis: well i wont sit on the box, im laggin a bit
Argent Stonecutter: Video game characters.
Selkit Diller: *Please* don't sit on the evil spambox. Please.
Vague Speculaas: I asked the question because if any of the companies would like to pursue the trademark infringement legaly, it would be devastating to SL
Matt Enfield: If I created a RL Impeach Bush sign, identical to the one in game an trademarked it. Would you remove it?
Felix Sholokhov: SL won't gt touched, the individuals doing the infringing will
Raavi Mann: Yes, do that Matt!!!
You: brilliant, Matt!
Selkit Diller: Please do, Matt.
Renee Ingmann: LMAO
Veronna Elytis: i was just wondering what plans were set for the futur regarding vehicals, the current limit is 30 prims which isnt bad, but people want to build bigger and better things
Schwartz Guillaume: I don't think trademarks work like that
Renee Ingmann: Matt funny funny
Matt Enfield: Serious question by the way
Veronna Elytis: its probably a noob question but hey i want to learn here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As a reference — you can check up on trademarked names/logos on the US Patent & Trademark Office online:
Midtown Bienenstich: MATT FILE IT
Buck Spinnaker: since Lazarus is broadly offensive, he's in violation of tos
Ares Desmoulins: sure matt, if you want to enter a court battle about original ownership and whatnot feel free
Gwyneth Llewelyn: http://www.uspto.gov/
Selkit Diller: Veronna; Workaround trick in the meantime? Make an invisible "collision hull" vehicle, and build the visible vehicle geometry as an avatar attachment to the pelvis.
Aliasi Stonebender: havok 2 - guaranteed to be put in SL before you die.
Felix Sholokhov: he's already using the design, you wouldn't be able to persue it
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: dont knock noobs
Matt Enfield: Ah thats what I figured Felix
Jeska Linden: Go ahead Veronna
Raavi Mann: Aliasi - I'm not gonna live that long!
Schwartz Guillaume: Mono?
Ares Desmoulins: when is this once going to happen?
Togra Pierterson: mmmm.... mono...
Veronna Elytis: ah o.k thank you
Raavi Mann: Robin - months?
The Soapbox: It is Togra Pierterson's turn to speak, please take the floor
Schwartz Guillaume: haven't you guys been promising Havok 2 for like two years now
Ares Desmoulins: as in 90-100 months?
Ares Desmoulins: or 3-4?
Argent Stonecutter: Is MONO going to mean people will be able to upload bytecode themselves?
Aliasi Stonebender: eh, I'm going by the old Apogee release date - When It's Done(tm).
Veronna Elytis: well thank you and have a pleasent day on behalf of the republic starfleet
Togra Pierterson: um. hmm. I'm going to get as close to that thing as I can
Jade Lily: Togra Pierterson... Torley Torgeson... boy is that messing with me
derek Franklin calls lucasarts..
Togra Pierterson: ok, well close -ish
Jeska Linden: Who's next?
Togra Pierterson: I think it was me
Lexa Pierterson is online
Schwartz Guillaume: Togra is
Midtown Bienenstich: Togra sit
Midtown Bienenstich: on the SoapBox
Raavi Mann: You mean SpamBox?
Schwartz Guillaume: full sim, I think
Jade Lily: togra's trying to get there
Togra Pierterson: not if it's in that region :P
Selkit Diller: Evil spambox of death.
Midtown Bienenstich: Sim is fulL!
Midtown Bienenstich: !!
Jeska Linden: There yo ugo Torga
Togra Pierterson: oh, thanks
Schwartz Guillaume: move over to Seascale
Argent Stonecutter: There's 4 sims!
The Soapbox: Togra Pierterson is on the soapbox now!
Jade Lily: creepy, isn't it? the force tp
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Togra Pierterson: ok, I've only been in SL for a while, but I've seen a lot, and most of it I've found is modern day stuff
Togra Pierterson: as a video game it's possible to make fantasy kinds of worlds- futuristic, past, etc., but especially around the mainland I've seen a lot of houses that I can see if I look out the window in reality
Togra Pierterson: there are a few exceptions, but usually they're not very big, and they don't go very far
Wendella McGettigan is offline
Togra Pierterson: most vehicles around are planes or cars or helicopters, which can be seen sometimes on a day to day basis in reality, and although there are a lot of hovercars, the stuff I can afford is the kind of stuff my neighbor has in his garage
Schwartz Guillaume: so people ought to be required to build stuff you want to see, rather than the stuff they want to make
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Togra Pierterson: my question is, are you considering making insentive to get people to be original as well as to build stuff ?
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Argent Stonecutter: Sign me up for a Future-zoned sim!
Selkit Diller: Togra, remind me to take you on a tour of the Arcology.
Aenea Christensen chuckles, try a gorean sim, they're medieval fantasy like :)
Selkit Diller: Or show you a G-flight interceptor.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Visit nexus prime, cyberpunk city, available since 2003...
Togra Pierterson: I'll have to do that diller :o
Raavi Mann: Argent - how about Star Wars?
derek Franklin: Sim-Crackhouse®
Ares Desmoulins: or rausch, all sorts of futuristic stuff
Argent Stonecutter: I'll drop you a LM for my space station.
Sue Stonebender is offline
Argent Stonecutter: Star Wars is just media fandom.
Schwartz Guillaume: check out Elvenglen and Elf Haven
Blue Linden: art imitates life
Diabolique Diamond is online
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: life is boring
You: Hey if ew're going to hvae spam, rent my townhouses at Solar Plaza
Blue Linden: or other artworks ;p
Midtown Bienenstich: How can you build something.
Midtown Bienenstich: that you have not seen>?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: LOL
Midtown Bienenstich: Most people, see houses.
Selkit Diller: Blue; If that's the case, my life is full of giant gold pyramids, Mediterranean bath-houses, and sky-scraping arcologies.
Veronna Elytis: a star wars sim has allready been made called new holstice representing several planets from the star wars story on just one sim, so i suppose futeristic sims can be made
Togra Pierterson: thanks fer the BM
Midtown Bienenstich: It's a fact of SL life.
Raavi Mann: And another sim in the plans, Veronna
Lexa Pierterson: The art galleries are incredible as are some of the gardens
Veronna Elytis nods
Schwartz Guillaume: if people wanted to build more fantasy stuff or cyberpunk stuff or surreal art or whatever, then you'd see it in world
Hermoine Pennyfeather is online
Argent Stonecutter: Oh, and the D'ni sim is insanelly great!
Selkit Diller: Lexa; There was plans in the works to film an SLTV special there when I still had the production side of it in my hands.
Raavi Mann: People should be encouraged to build ANYTING they want
Schwartz Guillaume: if you want people to build a certain way, money talks
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Veronna Elytis shouts: in any style they want
Schwartz Guillaume: buy a sim and pay people to develop it
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree Raavi, it's about inspiration
Raavi Mann: Precisely
The Soapbox: It is Prokofy Neva's turn to speak, please take the floor
Raavi Mann: Inspiration comes from a person, Mid
Midtown Bienenstich: !
You can't enter this region because
the server is full.
You can't enter this region because
the server is full.
Veronna Elytis: oh raavi did you click the soapbox to ask about the comm
Raavi Mann: One is inspired by this, someone else by the other thing around the corner
You: region full
Raavi Mann: Yes I did, Veronna
You: so can I just speak right here?
You can't enter this region because
the server is full.
Vague Speculaas: oh god
Veronna Elytis: cool
Schwartz Guillaume: I'm going to take a nap now
Vague Speculaas: Get ready to read an eassay
Schwartz Guillaume: wake me when it's over
Togra Pierterson writes down all the suggestions for fantasy places to visit. Thanks
Sue Stonebender is online
Try moving closer.  Can't sit on object because
it is not in the same region as you.
Cocoanut Koala: be polite, dammit!
Robin Linden: Please don't be rude. It's Prok's turn and he deserves the same attention as everyone.
Selkit Diller: Togra; I'd toss you a landmark to the Arcology, but it's still a work in progress.
You: it's teleporting me so I won't risk it again
You: ok
Raavi Mann: Can the people who already spoke move to Seascale?
You: can I just speak from the floor here?
Jeska Linden: Sure thing
Robin Linden: sure
You: LL should look carefully at Beth Noveck's theories because they are extremely troublesome;
Personal Chat Recorder 1.1-XPM: Script run-time error
Personal Chat Recorder 1.1-XPM: Stack-Heap Collision
Raavi Mann: That should solve the issue
You: she skips lightly over the totalitarianisms of the 20th century and promotes group rights
Personal Chat Recorder 1.1-XPM: The recording session has ended. [60.216667 minutes]
You: over hard-won individual rights and states' rights.
You: they count too!
You: Empowering groups BY WHOM, what KIND of groups, to do WHAT? You cannot be content-blind on this
Argent Stonecutter: The soapbox is delivering heap errors if you try and join the queue.
Midtown Bienenstich: Not to be rude, but Chat Recorder has stoped
You: as you are with all content if you want civilization
Vague Speculaas: what are Beth Noveck's theories?
You: With that in mind I'd like to ask what is meant today in Philip's interview to MM
You: about new tools that will create "covenants" on sims or have groups that can zone mainland sims.
You: How will the groups be defined, and what tools are being planned?
You: I can't stress enought the importance of early and frequent consultation on this with residents in groups.
You: thanks
Jeska Linden: Thanks Prokofy, we are planning on incoroporating new tools for groups to use both on and off the mainland.
Schwartz Guillaume: that's it?
Schwartz Guillaume: :>
Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW for Beth article on "democracy of groups": http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue10_11/noveck/
Jeska Linden: And will be sure to continue consulting with the community before we make any changes in regards to groups.
You: what KIND of tools Jeska? fine-tuning of officers' rights? or?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: like what tools
Raavi Mann: Now that is one good question
Jeska Linden: Needless to say, groups are being used in a very different way than when we first designed them
Jesse Linden: Mob enabling technologies
Midtown Bienenstich: what kind of zoning?
Veronna Elytis nods
Midtown Bienenstich: when?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suggestion: open up a new thread on the Feature Feedback forum, perhaps?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: no zoning no planning
Jeska Linden: Groups are being used now to run businesses, not just keep track of like-minded friends
Midtown Bienenstich: What is the Linden's take on the effect of this zoning?
Midtown Bienenstich: What is it's purpose?
You: Exactly mob-enabling technologies
Vague Speculaas: That's a good move
Dnate Mars: shared inventories?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Robin, that would be nice, specially if you could line out the major changes/new features on groups.
Argent Stonecutter: Company groups? Sales to groups, at a "site license" rate?
Vague Speculaas: Robin how long would the wait for this be
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh!
Argent Stonecutter: How enforced?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Any suggestions on how the "covenants" will be used/enforced?
Ares Desmoulins: i see this turning into the land barond reforming the world to THEIR liking, not the community's liking
Ares Desmoulins: barons*
You: yes how will they get drafted and verified?
Pypo Chung: i recoomend footsoldiers ^_^
Schwartz Guillaume: covenants are usually managed by the communities themselves, in real-world neighborhoods
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What does "manage" exactly mean?
You: Hardly Ares, the group tools already heavily favour non-land-barons and in fact cripple them so don't worry
Argent Stonecutter: Covenants are inforced in RL because the goverbment provides the tools to enforce contracts.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed Argent.
Midtown Bienenstich: so, Robin much like the sim of Slate?
Argent Stonecutter: Which means courts.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And a legal system to back them up.
You: why use the word convenants like it's out of the Bible? why not just "contracts" or "agreements"???
Midtown Bienenstich: zone controlled.. etx.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: yeah iand if a group wants covenant how do they do it
Gwyneth Llewelyn echoes Argent
Midtown Bienenstich: *etc
Midtown Bienenstich: awesome :D
Argent Stonecutter: If LL would enforce contracts in general that would be great.
Aliasi Stonebender: because that's the word often used in RL in housing situations, Prok. Might as well ask why they use Latin in the courtroom.
Schwartz Guillaume: Pro: because that's what they're called in the real-world as it relates to community-run zoning
Argent Stonecutter: But I can't see them having the manpower.
You: Swwartz: not in everybody's real world
Schwartz Guillaume: yes in everyone's real world
You: it's just some nouveau buzzword
Schwartz Guillaume: aaaargh
Lexa Pierterson: covenant is a common real estate term
You: um, communities often just have th eword "contarct" or "agreement" like "corporations" have "bylaws"
Dnate Mars: woot!
You: what are we making communes here again???
Raavi Mann: Now that would rock
Schwartz Guillaume: it's a common word for communities and zoning boards
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: too much talk too fast
You: yes and no Schwartz, and that's not ONLY what we'd be making with groups
Midtown Bienenstich: does Covenants = Homeowner's Association?
Argent Stonecutter: I got my tie-dyed textures ready now!
Aenea Christensen: "Nouveau buzzword" is a nouveau buzzword :)
Schwartz Guillaume: if you don't like the word, feel free to call it a Rubberduck or a Sproingdoodle or whatever
Aliasi Stonebender: enough of the semantics, I think it can be agreed that improved group tools = love.
Midtown Bienenstich: because, the only covenant I know.. is the alien in Halo :
You: well but why homeowners'; associations? we want to hvae businesses and corporations too
Operating Thetan: covenant is a better word than contract because covenant is not a verb
You: aren't we done making communes here Lindens?
Schwartz Guillaume: what's wrong with communes?
Argent Stonecutter: I like contract myself, because I think we need enforcable contracts unrelated to land.
You: They lead to crime Schwartz?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: yes lets have a;meetiing on that
You: they lead to officers stealing land from those who paid for it and hold tier on it
Teeny Leviathan: Communes are out. Sproingdoodles are in. :)
Aenea Christensen: Oh come on who cares about what it's called..
You: Maybe just portion off one or twoo sims for those who'd like to keep the socialist communes of that type? and fix the group tools for the rest of us?
Schwartz Guillaume: okay fine Ayn Rand, I'll stop
Midtown Bienenstich: I think we are wasting time debating a single word.
Argent Stonecutter: Just make sure it's applicable to more than land.
You: Um, no, I'm not Ayn Rand, I'm just not Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Schwartz Guillaume: whatever, AYN
You: Argent what we have already favours non-land?
Argent Stonecutter: NO, you're Prokofy Neva!
The Soapbox: It is Matt Enfield's turn to speak, please take the floor
Dnate Mars: it is all better tools, there is more then one way a tool like that can be used prok
You: and we need to fix it to stop *discriminating against* land
Midtown Bienenstich: :(
Raavi Mann: Robin - what about others who wanted to speak?!?
You: Donate I've suggested how it could be fixedto make any kind of group , socialist or capitalist, wheras you socialists keep wanting to keep it your way LOL
Tateru Nino: I am passing. Having listened to others speak, I do not wish to waste this assembly's time with my thoughts.
Midtown Bienenstich: please extend the meeting to 6pm, and have a timed discussion.
Matt Enfield: Hi, I just wanted to know what types of programs you had in mind to replace DI?
Schwartz Guillaume: DI?
derek Franklin: like grants?
Argent Stonecutter: Did you think about *tweaking* DI instead of abandoning it?
Schwartz Guillaume: you can't have community without commune
Vague Speculaas: Supporting content creators is where LL should really look into
Dnate Mars: Why?
Vague Speculaas: As of right now content creation is a free agent thing
Dnate Mars: Content should support itself
Vague Speculaas: This game thrives on content
Vague Speculaas: This game IS user content, therefore it should be supported
Argent Stonecutter: Because content is what brings people in game and makes money for LL.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vague — talk to sponsors
Schwartz Guillaume: because communities don't exist in a void, they need some content
Matt Enfield: A lot of the clubs are such will no longer be able to pay employees once DI goes away. Will you new system offer any real kind of finnancial support to them?
Dnate Mars: no, this is not a game, games can be won
You: one thing that might be helpful is if people *sold* content instead of giving it away for free
Vague Speculaas: Ok, how about a sandbox
Pypo Chung: you can win in second life
Argent Stonecutter: Anshe already won this one. :)
Pypo Chung: just become a rich person ^_^
Vague Speculaas: a social sandbox, the word sandbox itself leads to creation of content
Matt Enfield: OK, thanks!
Dnate Mars: That to me is not winning
Shaun Altman: Dnate: perhaps it just has multiple victory scenerios :D
Cocoanut Koala: Support for non-physical content - it is all going away, and that's a problem.
Robin Linden: I can't hear Prokofy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Prokofy. Or clubs charging for entertainment.
Argent Stonecutter: Nobody's going to pay a cover fee to go to a club in SL.
Robin Linden: what did he say?
Raavi Mann: OK, so we will pay for the game AND for it's content?
Veronna Elytis: that sucks
Aliasi Stonebender: "Prokofy Neva: one thing that might be helpful is if people *sold* content instead of giving it away for free"
Schwartz Guillaume: Robin: people should sell things instead of giving them away is what Prok said
Dougal Jacobs: Prokofy Neva: one thing that might be helpful is if people *sold* content instead of giving it away for free
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy suggested that content should be sold instead of freely given away
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops sorry Dougal.
Raavi Mann: That will kill the game. Period
Robin Linden: Raavi - many many people here don't pay for Second Life.
Aenea Christensen: yay capitalism
Vague Speculaas: I doubt anyone will pay a charge to go to clubs. The reason clubs work is because they give away money. Most of the events that get people are the ones based on a chance of monetary gain
Felix Sholokhov: yeah, just like no one will pay for water but what does it sell for a gallon now in RL?
Midtown Bienenstich: We the people of SL, should pay for more stuff.
Cocoanut Koala: Next, dwell itself might go.
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree with Gwen's first comment.
Midtown Bienenstich: Capitalism doesnt function if money doesnt move.
Midtown Bienenstich: period.
Argent Stonecutter: Dwell is IMPORTNAT.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was my suggestion as well, Cocoanut.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear Midtown....
Raavi Mann: Midtown - take a look at the SL website and see the transaction indicator
Cocoanut Koala: i'm not suggesting dwell go, gwyn
Vague Speculaas: Giving away content is a good idea. Giving away is sharing, sharing of the knowledge, which means more people can learn from examples and further the creations of their own
Dnate Mars: no, the DI is not working, the dweel help even the little guy
Raavi Mann: Money DOES move
Argent Stonecutter: Dwell simulates part of the economy that SL "hides" by making avatars perfect.
Operating Thetan: Shouldn't the reward for building a community be the community itself, not a fat check from Linden Labs?
Raavi Mann: And it moves in rather big amounts if you ask me
Midtown Bienenstich: no Vague.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know Cocoanut — but *I* am ;)
Vague Speculaas: However, there's nothing stopping you from selling your content
Midtown Bienenstich: IT's lost of economy.
Togra Pierterson: freebies help the new people learn how to start, in the case of scripts anyway, and it helps give them a chance
Midtown Bienenstich: some things should be given away
Midtown Bienenstich: not everythine
Argent Stonecutter: Dwell is all the small purchases you make all the time. Gas. Food.
Dnate Mars: but it does cost a lot to build that community
Dougal Jacobs: There is too much currency, Dwell isnt actuall GIVING money to the economy, what its doing is INFLATE the money supply and make the money that the end consumers DO have worth less...
Argent Stonecutter: You don't need to feed your avatar.
Midtown Bienenstich: people in SL think.. "I should only pay L for objects I can keep"
Argent Stonecutter: Instead you shed "dwell".
Midtown Bienenstich: that has to change.
Cocoanut Koala: i agree with selkit diller
Robin Linden: I have 5 minutes, then I need to go.
Ares Desmoulins: if i had to pay for every club or event i had to go to, i would have never made it past my 7 day trial
Schwartz Guillaume: just because a lot of people are furries doesn't mean that furry communities should get preference
Raavi Mann: Robin - next person maybe?
Midtown Bienenstich: then you upgrade Ares
Midtown Bienenstich: or buy Linden
Argent Stonecutter: There's other non-furry communities.
The Soapbox: It is katykiwi Moonflower's turn to speak, please take the floor
Argent Stonecutter: What abiout aviators?
Airvata Rental $50: Store rented for 30 days...
Dnate Mars: I think getting rid of the DI also will help the L$ market, now people aren't going to be so happily ready to just give L$ away
John Wallaby gets bored, same compalints and arguement that I see at any other meeting and on the forums.... Going home.
katykiwi Moonflower: is there another speaker
Argent Stonecutter: Selkit: so did I.
Vague Speculaas: Midtown I agree with you. I'm not saying that everything should be given away, but that free content should exist. It is good for the economy because other people will learn by example and make even more content.
Robin Linden: Katy did you want to speak?
katykiwi Moonflower: yes ty
Schwartz Guillaume: DI = developer incentive
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now!
Cocoanut Koala: but DI is based on dwell
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: An easy and doable incentive for dwellfare queens is to make a top 100 of the most popular places instead of top 20 -- why is it only 20???
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now, please hush!
katykiwi Moonflower: i wanted to briefly address the influx of new members
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: and the need for formal linden supported classes
Aliasi Stonebender: Vague: I don't think anyone's going to come around and yell at you every time you hit the "free to copy" box on your stuff in SL....
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: help island has a lot of nice tutorials however once the member leaves they are at a loss on how to proceed in sl , we used to have event classes
katykiwi Moonflower: conducted by linden sponsored instructors and i think the need is there for that formal structure on a daily events schedule
Jesse Linden: there are in fact formal Linden supported classes
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: katykiwi — 25 classes just *today* ...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jeska Linden: Today there were 25 of them ;)
Jesse Linden: anyone who is interested can become an approved instructor
Jesse Linden: and teach classes
katykiwi Moonflower: there is a heavy realiance on mentors who are now used more like quasi employees rather than volunteers
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: and receive Linden $'s even
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: hear hear Katy, and that's a very slippery slope and already sliding
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Jesse Linden: Instructors are a separate group from mentors
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: i think we need more structure jesse more of a fixed schedule rather than the heavy unpredictable reliance on mentors and volunteers
Raavi Mann: OK, come on, Veronna... it's a waste of time here, our main issue won't be addressed since I won't make it to the spambox
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Veronna Elytis nods
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Veronna Elytis: meet you back at HQ
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Schwartz Guillaume: poor raavi :(
You: well maybe spam into chat then Raavi? we're a captive audience
Jesse Linden: you are in fact standing on a new instructor stage area
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: built for the express purpose
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Dnate Mars: why aren't the other groups paid too? Is there work not as important?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: of hosting classes
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Raavi Mann: My issue is short and to Lindens only
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: I need to get this tile in my RL bathroom -- why do all these builds look like toilets though?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Togra Pierterson: oh BURN
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: in the mentors group the spam requests for a mentor to teach scripting or building are interesting because it leads to the question what is the duty of a volunteere mentor,
Argent Stonecutter: prok: rofl
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: i would like to see the system be more the way it was a couple of years ago where there were daily classes on the events schedule to help with the basics and perhaps advanced areas such as poser
Jeska Linden: Katy have you come to any of the Mentor meetings we hold monthly?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: there are daily classes on the events schedule
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: in fact the Teazer's group has been doing a great job
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: teaching up to 15 classes a day
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jeska Linden: We have been trying to refocus the energy of the mentors on welcoming new Residents, because for a while it seemed the Mentors were a bit lost for a clearly defined purpose.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: the classes i have in mind i guess i am asking for somethign wiht more structure and regularity
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
You: Maybe that was a sign they should be disbanded Jeska?
Schwartz Guillaume: oops this isn't working let's just throw it away
You: And you could hire professinals outside the resident base who are less biased.
katykiwi Moonflower: yes i am askign for linden classes not teazers
Lexa Pierterson: I would have been lost without my mentor the first week.
Jesse Linden: do you mean a Building 101 class every Monday at 2pm?
Jeska Linden: Well I don't know if I'd throw the baby out with the bathwater, since many of the mentors are very interested in helping new Residents.
katykiwi Moonflower: yes predictability
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Katy — what exactly is wrong with Teazer's?
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree with Katy, newcomers will find more trust in a class held by Linden, then a random one held by random one.
katykiwi Moonflower: when someone can plan to be here to take a class,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or Bob's classes?
You: I know my mentor helped me by $1200 worth of clothes at her friends' stores when i was new!
Jesse Linden: every class is posted well in advance
katykiwi Moonflower: i guess when i started there were classes conducted by the linden instructors who were actually provided guidelines for information
Alan Kiesler: How about placing education on its own tab in find, or something else to point out those specific events? I know of very few prople who will actually look at events anymore.
Jesse Linden: im not sure we have the resources for that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what you say is that residents are incompetent/biased and not really teaching anything worthwhile?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or that there should be a quality verification upon Linden-sponsored classes?
Felix Sholokhov: perhaps, considering the influx of new residents, there should be more postings in the MoTD regarding the classes or rather where to find out about them
katykiwi Moonflower: if anyone here sincerely feels the education and training for new members is adequate then i really think they need to be in world with members asking such basic questions that it leaves me thinking more is needed to accommdate the increase in members
Jesse Linden: ok Felix, fair enough
Dougal Jacobs: Felix's idea is keen.
Dnate Mars: what idea is that?
Vague Speculaas: Having a separate tab for classes would be a great idea, since all the events are filled with now is TRINGO and camping chairs. It's rare that something worthwhile is happening.
Dougal Jacobs: MotD
Jeska Linden: You can sort by education to get only classes Vague.
Jesse Linden: Im all for taking suggestions to expand educational program support in Sl
katykiwi Moonflower: events are filled with a lot of confusion yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The only issue I can agree with katykiwi is about *quality control*
Jesse Linden: feel free to email me at [email protected]
Cocoanut Koala: education: = classes. Usually Teazers.
Schwartz Guillaume: is there an introduction to using Find on Prelude Island because I swear nobody new ever seems to figure it out except by chance
Alan Kiesler: I'm talking about taking education *OUT* of Events. Altogether.
Wyn Stormwind: i've seen tringo events listed as education, though
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which *could* be overseen by LL.
Cocoanut Koala: teaching tringo maybe!
Wyn Stormwind: by saing that they'll teach you how to play
Schwartz Guillaume: learn to play tringo
Wyn Stormwind: that is very lame
Gwyneth Llewelyn wents to a Tringo class once....
Cocoanut Koala: well that is legit
Jeska Linden: Mis-listed evnets should be reported.
Jan Bjornson: ?
Midtown Bienenstich: !
Cocoanut Koala: teaching tringo belongs under education.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well jeska, one thing is mis-listing
Robin Linden: sorry - I have to run.
Shaun Altman: what's wrong with a class that teaches the finer points of a game though?
Jeska Linden: Bye Robin!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other is quality control
Robin Linden: thanks for coming everyone
Vague Speculaas: There's an education event listed right now that's about camping chairs
katykiwi Moonflower: well those who were for a while can remember the former class structure where there were meetings with instructors that covered who would teach what and when
Robin Linden: bye!
Cocoanut Koala: thanks robin
You: I'm all for education, and I can think about certain pose-ball education I could use too!
Dnate Mars: bye
katykiwi Moonflower: bye bye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Prok :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and bye Robin
Vague Speculaas: bye robin, thanks for staying
Midtown Bienenstich: bye..
Togra Pierterson: bye
You: bye Robin thanks
Midtown Bienenstich: well..
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What was your idea, Toy?
Midtown Bienenstich: vote Prop 866 everyone!
Dougal Jacobs: Bye Robin!
Dnate Mars: what is 866?
Midtown Bienenstich: Texture Black Listing
Midtown Bienenstich: 866
Shaun Altman: I also have to run.. nite all.. thx for the event LL.. it was informative and interesting
You: bye Shaun
Midtown Bienenstich: Is a solution for the Lazarus Diving issue
Blue Linden: bye shaun :)
Shaun Altman is offline
Jeska Linden: Thanks for coming out everyone -- next time I promise we'll have a topic :)
Jeska Linden: Keep us all focused and such.
Blue Linden: I have to scram too, thank you all!
Dnate Mars: bye blue
Vague Speculaas: I like this topicless discussions more
Felix Sholokhov: you provide the instructors and I'll suplly the land
Blue Linden: haha Jeska :)
Vague Speculaas: SL users really talk their minds
Vague Speculaas: bye bye Jeska
Gwyneth Llewelyn: see you Jeska & Blue
Jeska Linden: Have fun everyone!
Midtown Bienenstich: simply put, a utlity that would allow people to add SL users they dont like, and not able to see their objets/textures in their viewer.
Togra Pierterson: bye
Dnate Mars: I agree toy
Felix Sholokhov: becuase I suck at teaching lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Toy — who would do the supervising? Liaisons? How will they cover 250+ events?
Dnate Mars: same way they do now
Cocoanut Koala: they dont supervise it now
You: Jesse could you clarify the rules about Lindens joining residents' groups?
Midtown Bienenstich: Selkit, all a texture the viewer wants to see.
Dougal Jacobs: Watch out for the roof! its a doosey!
Midtown Bienenstich: *replace
Dnate Mars: but if it is ARed it can be taken care of
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They don't, because of the sheer physical impossibility to do...
Cocoanut Koala: oh
Midtown Bienenstich: replace the missing texture with one the viewer wants to see
Midtown Bienenstich: right, something similar.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The "property owner" — and how does the property owners police themselves?
Jillian Callahan is online
Midtown Bienenstich: simply put
Midtown Bienenstich: it wiuld allow to VChip Lazaruys
Argent Stonecutter: They shoudl at least go back to the old loading texture for stuff that's phantom.
Midtown Bienenstich: it wouldnt be censoring him
Argent Stonecutter: Like, particles, and avs.
Cocoanut Koala: no, but it would be obliterating him
You: Rather than all this tekkie vchipping of Laz, just enforce the three existing CS and TOS regulations that appyl to this menace
Cocoanut Koala: I'd prefer we had a continuois society
You: such as "disturbing the peace" or "spam" or even "global attacks"
Midtown Bienenstich: Provoky, it will just lead back to censorship rights.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed — there is no need to invent new things, just to enforce the,
Midtown Bienenstich: you of all people should lnow that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *them
You: there is plenty of existing language in the TOS
Schwartz Guillaume: you can't have it both ways, you can't have freedom for everyone and then turn around and demand censorship tools
Dnate Mars: I would say it could only be spam, but that could be streaching it een
Midtown Bienenstich: If so, then why haven't the Lindens dealt with it?
You: well I'd like to know what would consttitute disturbing the peace and interfering with enjoyment of another's SL if not THIS???
Cocoanut Koala: That is a good question, Midtown.
You: really I'd like to see some practice to go with this law
Cocoanut Koala: I think it's cause they don't care about the mainland.
Midtown Bienenstich: As I can tell.
Teeny Leviathan: If everyone would stop posting about Lazarus every 5 minutes, he might just get bored and move on. He feeds on attention.
Midtown Bienenstich: A Linden can Easily be manipulated when a law already exists.
You: well is "spam" a censorship tool?
You: I know that you all jumped down finn's throat for one notecard about his land offering
Dnate Mars: if the sign would shout impeach bush, that is disterbing the peace
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy not everyone wants to life by your christian values
katykiwi Moonflower: good point teeny
You: and yet you all get blind when it comes to the MILLIIONS of "notecards" that Laz is littering with
Midtown Bienenstich: they wont tell you No, if the rule says Yes.
Schwartz Guillaume: the only reason Lazarus is so infamous is because people are making a giant deal of him
Cocoanut Koala: Christian values? Did I miss something? Whre did that come from?
You: why?
You: see why do you get to censor a landowner's spam but boost a content creators' spam?
You: why do you get to be biased like that?
Midtown Bienenstich: tbh, it's a double axe.
Schwartz Guillaume: did you know that you can click his billboards and they go away for a while
You: with your argumentation about censorship
Midtown Bienenstich: If you ignore Lazarus.
Midtown Bienenstich: he wont go away
You: so? then they come back in 20 minutes
Dnate Mars: I don't think either should be censored
Schwartz Guillaume: it's his land, he should get to do what he wants on it
You: like my tenants, who don't move in when they see them so I lose business !
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy it's clear you have your own agendas and bias
You: sure, they go away !
You: you too hon, keep talking : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, I think there is a difference between "enforcing the ToS" and "censorship"...
Argent Stonecutter: A rule applied equally to everyone isn't censorship.
Bill Stirling is online
Cocoanut Koala: What's worse is that anyone - you , me, a competitor - can come along and do exactly as Lazarus has done.
Midtown Bienenstich: right, Cocoanut
Schwartz Guillaume: and it's perfectly within our rights to do so
katykiwi Moonflower: why not put up a wall to block the view of it with a nice sky scene on it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Argent
Argent Stonecutter: It's just a rule. IF It's really applied equally.
Dnate Mars: I know, what is to stop the next person from doing the same thing?
You: well why would someone with 64 m2 on a sim where I own the other 65,000 odd meters have more rights? are you saying my socialist rights of my group don't count?
Selkit Diller: Katy; Because that makes for a seriously cheesy build.
Schwartz Guillaume: anybody can do what Lazarus has done, and it should be perfectly within the rules
katykiwi Moonflower: cheesier than the sign you decry
Argent Stonecutter: NO.
Selene Gregoire is offline
You: well why is it ok to disturb the peace, spam the land, and make global attacks across sims?
You: why?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Schwartz: the point is, it is *against* the rules
Argent Stonecutter: That's how spammers got started on usenet and email.
Dnate Mars: right, but is that what we want for SL?
Argent Stonecutter: "it's only one message":
Cocoanut Koala: Why not put a cap on how many tiny lots you can own?
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is too liberal, any type of censorship or right "taken" away will be easily challenged.
Argent Stonecutter: JUST HIT DELETE.
Schwartz Guillaume: how is a rotating sign and expensive land against the rules
Dnate Mars: just a bunch of signs everywere?
You: when it no longer says IMPEACH BUSH, but say DRINK COCA-COLA, I guess we'll hear from you?
Argent Stonecutter: JUST HIT DELETE doesn't work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dnate — I just ask the Lindens to enforce their own rules, not much more is needed
Selene Gregoire is online
You: Yes enforce the existing CS
You: that's all that is required
You: no brain surgery
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed
katykiwi Moonflower: this is an old issue, arising about land scanners and small lots, and anshe signs,
Argent Stonecutter: JUST HIT DELETE is how you get people losing their domains because their spam filters blocked the renewal notices.
Dnate Mars: I know, I agree
Schwartz Guillaume: say cheese Selk
Vague Speculaas: The Second Life works like it does now is because it allows so much FREEDOM in ANYTHING. This also opens up for some unfavorable acts by certain people, but that is the sacrifice you have to take in order to enjoy Second Life at its fullest
Dnate Mars: but is it really against the rules?
Midtown Bienenstich: then I dont get it..
Kaboom Pow: It's not about spamming, it's about jerks using intimidation and harrassment to sell small lots at overly inflated prices.
Midtown Bienenstich: if this law against Lazarus, etc is in place.
Cocoanut Koala: No it is not a required sacrifice.
Argent Stonecutter: Yes, right now, spamming is just a tactic.
Midtown Bienenstich: then again, why have not the Lindens doen anuthing?
Argent Stonecutter: That tactic should be banned.
Midtown Bienenstich: *done anything.
Cocoanut Koala: Because they think it is a freedom issue.
You: well Vague I'm tired of sacrificing hundreds of RL dollars over lost business due to that crap in the air, why is that beneficial to "freedom of expression"? What about mY freedom of expression??
Selkit Diller: Oh look, I've become five minutes of Goontainment on Photoshop Friday.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vague, I'm sorry — I can't agree. So why can *some* people blatantly violate ToS and CS and get away for it because of a "small sacrifice"?
Dnate Mars: I think the gotcha is when he started that he is listing to fill the land sales and is not really looking to sell them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So does ToS and CS just apply to *some* of us, but not all? Why?
Schwartz Guillaume: you are a terrible goonsecutionist and I will report you for harassing goons
Vague Speculaas: so Prokofy everything should be catered to you? And make a bunch of rules that would break other people's freedoms?
Schwartz Guillaume: how dare you
Midtown Bienenstich: If the Lindens think it's a freedom issue, then we must propose to the Lindens something else.
Midtown Bienenstich: thus
Midtown Bienenstich: Prop 866
You: If they enforce there existing law, and then find that some other asstard crops up to test their resolve, and it seems to unfairly ding creativity, they can adjust it
Selkit Diller: Fursecution! Fursecution!
You: meanwhile, they ahve the authority and the discretion to ACT
Schwartz Guillaume: GOONSECUTION
Dnate Mars: no, 866 is not the way
Cocoanut Koala: No, vague, it should be catered to all of us.
Kaboom Pow: It's the same as noise harrassment to get you to buy abutting land at inflated prices.
Midtown Bienenstich: why not Dnate?
You: LENINSECUTION
Vague Speculaas: exactly
You: let's take a straw poll
RedRose Groshomme: /ao nextstand
You: I'd like to see how big this Leninist claque really is here
Dnate Mars: I think there is a bigger underlying issue that needs to be solved
Cocoanut Koala: They of course can act within the TOS, they just refuse to, and claim helplessness.
Operating Thetan: Oh drat I drew the short straw
RedRose Groshomme: /ao nextstand
You: who here is in favour of the Lindens enforcing their existing CS and TOS and removing the signs?
You: say aye
Midtown Bienenstich: Dnate, and what is that?
Cocoanut Koala: AYE
You: aye
Argent Stonecutter: aye
Dnate Mars: what is spam?
Selkit Diller: Prok; Nay. I doubt the signs are actually against TOS.
You: transmission across frontiers
Cocoanut Koala: The SIGNS themselves are NOT against the TOS.
You: first let's take the ayes Selkit? then you can speak to your motion
Cocoanut Koala: The MESSAGE on the sign is not against the tos.
Argent Stonecutter: spam is flooding a communication channel with a message to the point where that message becomes noise on the channel.
Cocoanut Koala: HAVING A SIGN is not a gainst the tos.
Midtown Bienenstich: Even the Lindens do create anti-spam legislation..
Midtown Bienenstich: what makes you think
You: the motion on the floor is, who is in favour of the Lindens enfrocing existing TOS by asking Laz to remove the signs or removing them?
Midtown Bienenstich: his signs are part of it?
Cocoanut Koala: Having hundred signs, using them to grief and extort (and spam) IS against the TOS.
You: aye
Jesse Linden: allright im off folks
Dnate Mars: they have anti-spam already in the TOS
Selkit Diller: Prok? In an open forum, enforcing a speaking order is indeed the sort of censorship you complain about.
JIJI Jimador: People, people, we should be more concerned about the comming of Zalgo.
Jesse Linden: thanks for coming
Jesse Linden: have fun
katykiwi Moonflower: coco is right on that
Schwartz Guillaume: bye Jesse
Selkit Diller: And I think I'm in my rights to speak against the motion.
Dougal Jacobs: Bye Jesse!
Cocoanut Koala: When you give this guy his right to do that, we lose our rights to live properly in the world, I believe.
Shack Dougall is online
Vague Speculaas: Who is here FOR the ac tion of lindens writing a SPECIFIC tos that tells you exactly what is wrong and what is right, so that they couldn't vaguely cater to those who take the most advantage of the sl residents and come away at the top
You: rolls on floor with laughter @ Selkit
Operating Thetan: hear hear, Vague
Schwartz Guillaume: this motion is stupid
You: could we hear ayes or nays please on this motion?
Schwartz Guillaume: it's a loaded question
Midtown Bienenstich: Provoky, it doesn't matter.
Midtown Bienenstich: if we all really cared.
Dnate Mars: I lost it, what are you asking?
JIJI Jimador: No one here is ready for Zalgo, it may already be too late.
Selkit Diller: Wow. I'm about to agree with a Goon. Hug me, Schwartzie.
Midtown Bienenstich: we'd overwhelm the Lindens
You: yes it does Midtown, opinioni grrows and it wil solidify around this eventually
Midtown Bienenstich: which would be good
Schwartz Guillaume: ffff
Cocoanut Koala: On the forums, sentiment is running 3 to 1 in favor of removing the signs on the poll there.
Dnate Mars: well, yes
Schwartz Guillaume: who cares about sentiment
You: well could we hear what people here in this chance gathering think?
Cocoanut Koala: well - counting those who just want to remove SOME of them.
Vague Speculaas: There has already been a proposition for the Lindens to write a specific TOS that would have concrete laws, they refused
Midtown Bienenstich: you're right onthat Prok.
Schwartz Guillaume: we just showed that most people here have the sentiment of thinking that pedophilia is okay
Cocoanut Koala: Well, Schwartz, don't yu care about what people think about the society?
You: maybe because it's a vague and speculatory concept Vague? what you propose
Schwartz Guillaume: just because a lot of people think it doesn't mean it's right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But is there any *doubt* about ToS violation in this case??
Cocoanut Koala: No we didn't.
Midtown Bienenstich: but we need to find a away to get our actions truly strengthed.
Dnate Mars: I have a question, if he had just one sign, is that spam?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Argent Stonecutter: Hitler hitler hitler!
Cocoanut Koala: no it is not dnate
Selkit Diller: Granted, the signs are an eyesore. Granted, they're a bloody nuisance. But as an idle note... if you want an entire sim? Buy an estate and exercise whatever form of totalitarian control or pseudodemocracy that you want.
Argent Stonecutter: ne sign isn't spam.
Dougal Jacobs: ....
Dnate Mars: what about 5?
Cocoanut Koala: which is -selkit - probably what the lindens are thinking.
Cocoanut Koala: brb
You: well explain to me how we can have a world that persecutes finn, permabans me from the forums, fails to remove Boycott Anshe signs in the new continent, but leaves up Lazars?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe I see your point, Dnate
You: I want to hear about how that world is for "freedom of expression:?
Midtown Bienenstich: Honestly, we the people of SL, need to put the Lindens in the hotseat
Selkit Diller: And another note? If you're going to complain about the signs, why not complain about all the virtual-ad billboards everywhere?
Vague Speculaas: I propose that the reason there's so much argument over what's allowed and what isn't is because the lindens don't have concrete laws, and only vaguely give you what should and shouldnt be done. They do this for their own gain, so that in the end they
Teeny Leviathan: The Lindens aren't gonna act on this issue. The only way Lazarus is going away is to catch him for something else. He will slip up. I see it coming.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should I quote Robin Linden on her former views on the subject? "All content deemed offensive will be removed"
Vague Speculaas: have the ultimate power and say over what is ok and isnt
Argent Stonecutter: The thing about spam is, any reasonably limit on spam is way higher than non-spammers need.
Selkit Diller: Is there a cutoff point for a number of object duplicates when it becomes spam?
Argent Stonecutter: Make it 50.
Dnate Mars: what about the ad-net billboards, are they spam?
Schwartz Guillaume: because Lazarus's signs and the anti-Anshe signs are passive while you try to incite flamewars and barely skirt around the forums TOS
Midtown Bienenstich: What about an Anti-Laz group?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it's not a question of ONE sign vs MANY
Selkit Diller: Argent, that's probably the number of networked ad signs in your average large mall.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ONE sign is all it's needed
You: The Lindens have discretionary powers and good language about spam and about "harming the enjoyment of SL for another"
Multi Gadget v1.33.2 by Timeless Prototype
Schwartz Guillaume: how is a sign harmful
Schwartz Guillaume: how is 100 signs harmful
You: I'd be for a policy that kept all signage by the roadside and off the rest of the sim
Cocoanut Koala: back
Schwartz Guillaume: if you want to get rid of it, hold your nose and buy the land
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not "harmful" — offensive
Argent Stonecutter: You have to consider the amount of land that they're visible from.
You: unless it was in a commercial area where these "conventants" could designate it as such possibly
Schwartz Guillaume: use your Libertarian dollar-votes
Selkit Diller: Prok; Censorship against personal expression. That would limit builds, of course.
Argent Stonecutter: That's why 100 emails isn't spam, but 100 usenet postings is.
You: No do not buy the land!
Midtown Bienenstich: being politically correct though...
Cocoanut Koala: i'd be for owning only 3 size 16s per individual; only 5 size 32s, etc.
Dnate Mars: but not for 20k per 16sqm
You: Do not cave to extortionists!
Midtown Bienenstich: these signs aren't spam.
Argent Stonecutter: Different channels have different carrying capacities.
You: it's that attitude that FEEDS THEM
Schwartz Guillaume: buy the land if you hate it so much
Midtown Bienenstich: it's his sign
You: yeah and enrich a terrorist? huh?
Midtown Bienenstich: his land
Schwartz Guillaume: then you'll be rid of it
You: hell no
You: HELL no
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy if they do something about those impeach bush signs, then that is censorship, which means anything can be censored after that. And it would be up to them to decide what to censor and what not to
Felix Sholokhov: I'd be against that proposal Coco
Dnate Mars: then it is extortion
Selkit Diller: Terrorist? Wow.
You: and since we're in mature here in Seascale, FUCK NOI
Dnate Mars: that is against the TOS too
Schwartz Guillaume: putting up posters is terrorism, wow
Cocoanut Koala: vague, it's like you are in macy's.
Argent Stonecutter: These are signs that can be seen from half a sim.
Midtown Bienenstich: Lazarus has us locked on purpose.
Selkit Diller: Lemme go buy Lazarus some 747s and AKs.
Cocoanut Koala: Someone comes in there and starts hollering in the lingerie department to "Impeach Bush!"
You: yes Schwartz, virtual terrorism to impose your will on civilians not involved in your dispute with some powers, yes that is the ideology of Leninist and Bakunist terrorism, sure
Selkit Diller: And maybe he could start swinging the monkeybars for a few hours in the desert each day.
Cocoanut Koala: the police can't do a thing, can they ? cause that would be censorship.
You: we need to call it what it is
You: virtual tho it may be
Argent Stonecutter: You can't compare that to something in a mall you can't see from 20 meters away.
Schwartz Guillaume: how is displaying a sign imposing your will
Selkit Diller: That's not terrorism, Prok, it's weak propaganda at best.
Schwartz Guillaume: isn't demanding he be banned completely from SL more terroristic
You: I am FORCED to look at it
Dnate Mars: it is extortion at worst
Schwartz Guillaume: perhaps even fascist
Selkit Diller: Prok; No, you're not forced to.
You: I cannot chose to look at it, as I could chose not to look at Finn's card, or the events list
Schwartz Guillaume: why not buy the land around it and build a pretty tower
Cocoanut Koala: I have NEVER demanded he be banned from SL.
Vague Speculaas: No one is holding your face into the impeach bush signs
Kaboom Pow: Exactly Dnate.
Cocoanut Koala: I have demanded only that his signs would be taken down.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Completely banning" is one thing for repeated offenses...
Argent Stonecutter: Bah, the lindens are gone, this is all peanut gallery stuff.
Dnate Mars: if his signs are spam, what about the ad-net billboards?
Argent Stonecutter: *poof*
Cocoanut Koala: OK Toy. Say a guy is on his own property, next to yours.
You: that's why all you nervous nellies bitching about eyebleeds from the events list and wanting to "clean it up" are such hypocrties
You: I don't HAVE to look at Tringo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: For a first offense against the ToS, removal of offensive content used to be enough
Kaboom Pow: Venting is healthy. lol
Cocoanut Koala: He decides to put on a nudie show in the front yard every night at 7.
Argent Stonecutter: Dnate: i've already addressed that
You: I am FORCED to look at Laz
Schwartz Guillaume: you are not forced to look at Laz
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy I am FORCED to listen to your ramblings. You are a terrorist. Lindens should do something about that. See what I did there? I used your own logic.
Cocoanut Koala: Police can't do anything can they/ After all it's his property.
Dnate Mars: I am sorry, I missed it
Selkit Diller: Prok? Build a tower around it and leave the top of the tower open. Because there's still access to his land, you're not violating TOS.
You: No Vague because you don't HAVE to come to this meeting
Schwartz Guillaume: put up a nice tower or decorative wall around his little 16m^2 parcel and you'll never see it again
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vague, and you can always mute him
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy you don't HAVE to look at that sign
You: whwereas I HAVE to look out the front porch of my property, there's no where else to look but on those signs
Operating Thetan: Since the Lindens are gone (except for Blue Linden who we are supposed to Disregard), I propose that the new topic of discussion be "Who is stronger, Goku or Superman?"
Midtown Bienenstich: Once again.
Operating Thetan: I say Goku.
Cocoanut Koala: toy, the one next to me didn't bother me either
Cocoanut Koala: Buit when the problem grew, that bothers me.
Selkit Diller: Prok, just as I can choose to mute you, you can choose to "mute" the sign by building something around it on your own land. Gee...
Midtown Bienenstich: You guys are talking like the US Congress meet of '97
Midtown Bienenstich: V-Chip Laz.
You: Um, W-HAT, because events griefers are still in the game, and they can't seem to eradicate them?
Vague Speculaas: no one is FORCING you TO look AT the sign THAT is in FRONT of your HOUSE
Dnate Mars: those signs bother me to no end, I have to look at them every day in Alta
You: um, ask Kenny Linden about that, I tried that
Schwartz Guillaume: if you want to control what you see so badly, buy your own sim that you can control with an iron will
You: and he threatened to "kick" me from the game
You: imagine that
You: uh, gosh, it's never enough Schwartz
Dnate Mars: the are all around me, i have very little I can look without a sign
You: I do own a few sims LOL
Selkit Diller: Prok? Who gives a damn about W-Hat beyond the oversensitives? I'm a fucking furry sitting next to a Goon right now having a LOLocaust
Cocoanut Koala: well i'm off y'all
You: that's offensive, to say something like "LOLOcaust" ugh
Cocoanut Koala: i'll see you later - and DO NOT BUY HIS LAND!
Schwartz Guillaume: LOLocaust LOLocaust LOLocaust
You: you people are really awful and now I see who YOU are Selkit
Midtown Bienenstich: buy Koala
Schwartz Guillaume: I AM FORCING YOU TO SEE MY HATE SPEECH
Cocoanut Koala is offline
You: ok I'm done! thanks Blue!
Schwartz Guillaume: furries and goons, banding together to piss off Prok
Selkit Diller: Prok; I'm hardly a goon. I'm not a W-Hatter. I just don't give a damn about SL politics.
You: it's been fun!