Sutherland Dam Meeting on Zoning

Doreen Elytis: ty
You: Hi Midtown come on in
Midtown Bienenstich: Hi Prokofy, in your annoncement, you didn';t state a time.
You: yes it's on the top Midtown
Midtown Bienenstich: Told ya so ¬¬
You: on the calendar and on the forums it gives the time Midtown
You: if you mean just now on the reminder, well, whatever
Midtown Bienenstich: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi :)
You: it's a regular event every week
Midtown Bienenstich: hi Gwyn
You: hi Swyn
Doreen Elytis: hi Gwyneth
You: fly upstairs everybody
Oculas Spaceball Bag whispers: Starting Gravity Manipulation, for commands list say 'help'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Am I on the "right" level...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry
You: well let's go up to the ceiling
Tom Bukowski: hey gwy!
Tom Bukowski: gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Tom :)
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, maybe I should spam the
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, hi everybody, really ;)
Midtown Bienenstich: Builders of Second Life group
You: Gwyn what's the news?
You: yes why not?
Midtown Bienenstich: and inform them of the event?
You: the more spam the merrier
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
You: well this is a regular discussion group that I hold every Friday at 6 if I can get here
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Tom Bukowski: uh
You: and we usually discuss the economy
You: and of course everything ties to the economy
Ravenglass Rentals in Patagonia $1000: Store rented for 30 days...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy, are you still part of the Linden "community roundtable" mailing list?
You: no I was booted from it in a blatant violation of law
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I sadly thought as much :(
You: well it's a longer story but I'm banned lol
You: but not from inworld meetings
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: what's on this vaunted and secret list : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Lindens are worried about the "fake events" *again*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: uh-oh
You: oh no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye.
You: the posses are coming to remove content
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Tom Bukowski: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rather, they're seeing how they can make event announcements a "paid" thingy
You: of course
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and somehow merging it with classifiedss
You: not surprising
You: oh geez
You: remove the only entry-level employment in this vicious Darwinist world
You: bleh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, not surprising, because there is no "fair" alternative that does not involve more human resources.
Cocoanut Koala: where the hell are y'all
You: bleh
Barbarra Blair: which means the camping chair people will be the only events left--
You: Coco listen to this!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Cocoa — up here
You: awful awful
Barbarra Blair: Because they are willing to chuck in the cash
Cocoanut Koala: you're competing with Fiddler on the Roof, ya know
Midtown Bienenstich: I got two people from the builder's grup
Midtown Bienenstich: Hi all, btw
Tom Bukowski: hello!
Cocoanut Koala: hiya!
Pierre Mostel: Hello.
Doreen Elytis: hi all
Cocoanut Koala: yes, midtown im
Cocoanut Koala: d me
Gabriel Nosferatu: hello.
Midtown Bienenstich: Third Incoming
Cyber Lightcloud is online
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi, hi :)
You: well I was thinking the Lindens might outsource events to Flippier and slboutique.com
Barbarra Blair: yuk
Midtown Bienenstich: no way
You: well he's started his own list of sanitized events
You: and their trend is to hand off tough jobs to big third-party sites
Lasivian Leandros: Oh, so this isn't a true "round table", it's a "Prok wants to complain" event..
Lasivian Leandros: later
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No fortuntaely it's not so bad!
Midtown Bienenstich: ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft lAsivian
Cocoanut Koala: some people are incapable of conversation, apparently (Lasivian)
Midtown Bienenstich: this is not a "Prok" event.
You: I remember Lasivian, he's the one who got me banned from the Communisty Rount Table list by harassing me on my personal email accusing me of creating filter problems in his own company's systm, when in fact the Lindens were to blame
Barbarra Blair: If events are not part of the standard Linden interface, then a lot of people won't know how to post or read the postings.
You: and when I posted that fact of his name-calling and harassment on the CT list, Pathfinder banned me for "disclosure of a convo"
You: IMagine!
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree completely Blair.
Cocoanut Koala: pure crap, that was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I understand now :)
You: just as an off-topic aside there anyway back to topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes — zoning.
Midtown Bienenstich: YAY!
You: well what you've told us is fodder for a whole other meeting
Tom Bukowski: ah, zoning
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, lol
You: but let's address what Philip said
You: in the Metaverse Messenger
You: did everyone see it or should I paste it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: has anybody understood *how* the enforcing will be done? The rest is "understandable"...
Tom Bukowski: remind us Prok - I glanced at that edition
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah please paste it, prok
You: yes yes
Barbarra Blair: please paste
Tom Bukowski: please paste - I only skimmed it and it's hard opening pdf files with sl on lol
You: well he said LL is developing new group tools
You: just a sec
Barbarra Blair: during your sec
Midtown Bienenstich: camera angles conflict :(
You: takes awhile to load up MM on pdf
Barbarra Blair: the real problem is that everything is divided up into tiny lots and sold willy nilly
You: I wish it were inworld
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, there is no planning or coordination.
Tom Bukowski: yes barbarra
Barbarra Blair: Right.
Pierre Mostel: Excuse me I have something to attend I wasnt monitoring the time.
Tom Bukowski: I've got a problem like that right next to my build right now - a teeny plot, only 7 prims, what else could it be good for?
Midtown Bienenstich: Indeed, the Mainland is barbaric in terms of scenic harmony.
You: well what it said basically is new tools enable a "covenant" to be made
You: when you buy a sim
You: or when you group land
You: but wasn't clear
You: when he said "people on a sim"
You: whether the group becomes just all those people on a sim
You: or only those who join in an assocation
You: they would have deputies who could return prims
You: this was a gradation of the officer functions that we've long asked for
Doreen Elytis: I have to go, bye all
Tom Bukowski: cu!
Midtown Bienenstich: bye
Barbarra Blair: That's fine for group owned land.
You: to avoid the problem of the officers who could sell out from under other officers land that those officers buy or tier
You: yes well the term "covenant" comes from community zoning in some states
You: at the town hall everyone started blasting me when I said this was a "buzz word"
You: it is taken from RL practice in some states in some communities
You: so it's transplating here does constitute a buzz word IMHO
You: LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worse than that... I can understand that groups get a few more extra buttons and labels here... and one will give you a Nota Bene-signed notecard with the "covenant" for the land for that group. BUT... how will it be enforced?
Barbarra Blair: exactly.
Midtown Bienenstich: Most likely integrated with the system.. just not sure how.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How?
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, maybe you can label a prim "residential"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean
Tom Bukowski: methinks it would be tricky to implement
Midtown Bienenstich: :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I humbly bow to programmers with experience...
Barbarra Blair: If group officers can just sieze builds or land, I'd imaginve that groups will become pretty unpopular quick.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but if a notecard says "you can only build 7 trees, not higher than 20 m, and all westwards of homes with less than 8 sides"
Midtown Bienenstich: it's to your left.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *how* will a computer program "enforce" that???
Barbarra Blair: Or, no purple houses or metal boxes etc.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Barbarra.
Barbarra Blair: Obviously a person will have to judge what conforms.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "A person".
Cocoanut Koala: i imagine anyone with such strict a covenant would have no one interested in their area anyway
Midtown Bienenstich: well, height limits would be easy to implement.
Cocoanut Koala: or if they did, the group would soon disband in dissarray
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah lol Cocoanut — yes, perhaps you're right :) :)
Barbarra Blair: DRAMA
Midtown Bienenstich: but, labeling a prim..
Midtown Bienenstich: sounds like hard work.
You: I often wonder if my two simple rules of don't build more than 2 storeys and be considerate of your neighbours couldn't get wider currency
Cocoanut Koala: indeed they could!
Cocoanut Koala: the rules on azure island are very general and lenient
You: I realize that everyone has a story, everyone has a 3-storey castle, I have heard them all, trust me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Prokofy — on your rentals, *you* do the rounds...
Barbarra Blair: Besides, some of us like towers.
Cocoanut Koala: well - i think that on azure islands, everybody does pretty much as they wish UNLESS someone complains
You: but those rules, and the request, not rule, not to build RIGHT SMACK on the property line helps a lot -- nothing causes anger than having a build RIGHT ON you like that
Cocoanut Koala: then the ordinance can be dragged out
Midtown Bienenstich: I've noticed that only the Azure Island and Dreamland have some type of "written" building law.
Cocoanut Koala: yes, they have that rule too in Azure Islands
Cocoanut Koala: i have lived there quite some time and have never heard of a problem of any kind
Midtown Bienenstich: All other sims that have zoning, are decided by usually at the discretion of one person.
Cocoanut Koala: people are pretty willing to live and let live within the loose rules
You: Dreamland has the most complex, with things I don't get like "no build higher than it is 1.5 times the distance from the property line etc"
Midtown Bienenstich: examples, are Slate and Boardman
You: no one obeys them and everyone bitches about them
Cocoanut Koala: no bitching in azure that i know of
Cocoanut Koala: i may have the rules on a notecard somewhere
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* although these resemble RL covenants
You: Well Midtown, if you have Barnes and Ingrid build just about everything in the sim, yoiu don't hvae to worry about zoning and codes
You: that doesn't scale tho
Midtown Bienenstich: I think the Azures are highly uniform and controlled.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Midtown Bienenstich: right .. Provoky.
Midtown Bienenstich: like I said.
Midtown Bienenstich: usually at the authority of one person.
You: I lived in Azures for awhile and I had neighbours unhappy if a house was even 16m from their house, but Adam parcelled lots with no buffers between them
Midtown Bienenstich: in this case two.. but you get the point.
Cocoanut Koala: "the basic frules for residents in this sim are:
Cocoanut Koala: -no commercial orientated builds (sic)
Cocoanut Koala: - no clubs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So... what I *think* that will happen... is that people will have a new option for "covenant abuse report"
Cocoanut Koala: 0no builds which dramantically lower framerates (either client or server)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and somehow two things might happen:
You: what I find is that people will obey rules if they are 1) simple 2) accessible 3) always available and 4) they are properly informed of them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a) group members agree on the "covenant abuse report"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) Lindens will enforce them
You: when they get mad is when they are 1) complicated 2) too long and hard to find 3) not visible 4) not always put out, or subject to arbitrary changes
Midtown Bienenstich: but, I doubt the Lindens want more "work"
Barbarra Blair: Which is what the Lindens don't want to do
Cocoanut Koala: - buildings must not be higher than the width of your plot, and 4 meter distance from property line
You: So they tell us we will get the tools to do this
Cocoanut Koala: sky building above 500 meters
You: but I am fearful of what they will do, given what they did with tools so far
Cocoanut Koala: build within good taste (no plywood box homes , crashed space ship) defined by a group officer
Midtown Bienenstich: Well, has anyone had access to the workings of Blumfield?
You: well I put that under a rule called "be considerate of your neighbours"
Cocoanut Koala: well my roomie has his space hub on there and no one has yelled
Cocoanut Koala: ok that is all . . .
Cocoanut Koala: *hushes up*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And what if you aren't, prokofy?
Justice Soothsayer: Lindens might empower the "group" to be the enforcer of convenants
Midtown Bienenstich: The entire design and group function of that sim is odd, and it was made to test zoning.
You: if someone builds a metal junk yard in a beautiful area and I have tenants complaint about that tenant, I say, "could you change that? it's bothering people"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How would that work, Justice?
You: well what I wonder about that -- will this group have th epower to return my prims on my own land or only prims on group land?
Tom Bukowski: that's sort of what happened with the whole blue note thing
Cocoanut Koala: the lindens don't have to enforce anything, if the group tools, like, can vote on a member
You: Philip made it seem that this group over-arches other individuals and groups by being a sim-wide association of sorts
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's my question, Prokofy.
Justice Soothsayer: Could be by majority vote of the group; could be that the group might delegate the power to one or more members
Barbarra Blair: WE know how well that works--"would you please remove the impeach Bush sign?"
Cocoanut Koala: then you vote him out of group, and automatically he goes off the land
You: well we know how majorities and even vocal minorities can impose horrid group-think in SL, I wonder about that
Cocoanut Koala: yes
Barbarra Blair: That is what nearly wrecked Darkwood
Cocoanut Koala: I have defined how it is being done, and how it can be done - but not commented on whether or not that is good.
You: This is why I'm not in love with groups like Beth Noveck is in love with groups.
You: No need to get excessively celebratory of groups.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. So if I understand correctly... the new group tools will have a "vote to empower member" option... someone flags a "covenant abuse report"... then you vote on a member to do something about that... this guy gets temporary God mode for returning prims
You: Law should be above groups.
Cocoanut Koala: i'm just guessing, gwyn
You: well Gwyn we don't know
Tom Bukowski: k folks, I'm sorry I gotta run, but ty for having this discussion Prok and maybe I'll try to do a follow up in a week or two - this is a really interesting and important topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes me too, Cocoanut
Tom Bukowski: cu all later!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Tom
You: pres son this blue cube here and read what Philip said in this interview
You: now I asked about this in the TH
Justice Soothsayer: we dontknow, but we certainly can propose some ideas
You: and got all kinds of New-Speak from the Lindens
Cocoanut Koala: i fear these ideas will be proposed ONTO us
You: like "we will build the tools to empower groups to effect change"
Cocoanut Koala: perhaps from democracy island
Gwyneth Llewelyn: PL: "It would also give owning communities or initial sim owners the ability to return objects, alter terrain or otherwise control the sim as needed."
You: and I was like "uh-oh"
Midtown Bienenstich: I think the Lindens are preparing something .. somethingbig.
Midtown Bienenstich: obviously zoning..
You: yes I'm going to be Fear Uncertainty Doubt incarnate on this big-time
You: : )
Cocoanut Koala: i fear that some residents are in on it, and its not us
Cocoanut Koala: I'm not normally a paranoid person
Cocoanut Koala: but I'm sort of starting to be
Midtown Bienenstich: but it's like they are determined to change the hierarchy of sl.
You: well Coco, I fear that Democracy Island is the brain trust for this brainiac thing just to be paranoid about it
Barbarra Blair: But really, those sort of tools are mostly there already.
You: and I see no evidence of Lindens CONSULTING with the people who really DO GROUPS
You: instead of those who THINK groups
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes on Estate Tools, Barbarra.
You: and make closed democacy islands
Barbarra Blair: For any landowner.
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is on the verge of revolution! :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Barbarra Blair: SL is always revolting....
You: For me, the bigger question is: what happens to land where people don't covenant, and don't go into this forced-march? Is it declared a Badlands?
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Cocoanut Koala: it ALREADY IS! Prok!
You: If so, fine, all my rentals will bei n this Badlands lol
Barbarra Blair: Most people won't do it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll skip the revolutionary thoughts for now, I'm more worried about the concept of "empowering someone" to return prims on other's land
You: yes Gwyn can that be what it means?
Barbarra Blair: Me too.
You: did you see that as what it means?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's the way I read it
Cocoanut Koala: well, but if they bought INTO that, Gwyn, and agreed to it . . .?
Barbarra Blair: That would be a real headache.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: that seems to fly against the whole "laissez Lazarus" ethic of the Lindens
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes and no Cocoanut
Barbarra Blair: Why woul I agree to taht?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suppose that a group agrees on the covenant.
You: "Lazarus-faire"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now a guy is empowered to solve an issue
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: while he has God mode, he returns prims by mistake
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "oops" he goes
You: I can't BELIEVE the Lindens are going to get into content like that, empowering people to judge and return content
You: BUT
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next the group votes again to revoke God mode
Barbarra Blair: So what if I'm in the group, but I'm not builing on group land?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and empower someone else to fix the stuff
You: they can DELEGATE groups to do that and count on their little vicious fanboyz to police for them?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: this new guy, as vengeance, bans the first offender
Barbarra Blair: anyhow, it's confusing, and seems prone to abuse
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and so on :P
You: yes
You: confusing and prone to abuse thank you
Gwyneth Llewelyn echoes Prokofy & Barbarra
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i can see that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worse
You: How far along are they on that?
An object named Object owned by Prokofy Neva gave you Philip on Zoning and Group Tools.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes Prokofy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How many people did they ask for opinions?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How thorough did they think about it?
Cocoanut Koala: and
You: his quote says "with unanimous approval"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nobody at the Community Roundtable was available to explain
Cocoanut Koala: WHO gave them opinions anyway, and they listened
Cocoanut Koala: I'm thinking we should be preemptive
You: so what happens if one of the unanimous sells out from the group to a newcomer who won't go along?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed Cocoanut. Who?
Cocoanut Koala: and give our opinions whether asked for them or not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it, Prokofy! What then?
Barbarra Blair: Or do you have to have approval to sell your land?
You: Gwyn was this zoning and tools stuff discussed on the Community list?
You: the one I'm banned from lol?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It certainly was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll re-send it to you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But mostly ignored
You: so what was said?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, no answers, prokofy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just a few questions from me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also asked Robin on email
You: well Gwyn we could ask Pathfinder or one of the more higher ups to give a theme-based communityi meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Still no answer
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
You: like they did on Blumfield
You: to discuss precisely this issue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I asked Robin for that as well :P
Midtown Bienenstich: when
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Jesse today
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear
Cocoanut Koala: what ? Blumfield was allowed to express their view?
You: well Jesse was the one telling me New-Speak
Cocoanut Koala: on their sim?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "allowed to express" yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Cocoanut Koala: but then told no
You: "we will give residents the tools to empower them to affect change"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
Cocoanut Koala: well if he said TOOLS
You: yeesh
Cocoanut Koala: that means from democracy island!
You: all this wierd better worldism stuff
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cocoanut: what Path told the Blumfielders: "it was just a marketing ploy"
You: well Coco I'd like not to be paranoid about this
Cocoanut Koala: so would I, haha
Midtown Bienenstich: marketing ploy?
You: but when Hiro tells me arrogantly on my blog that he is building "tools for democracy" that I don't nee dto be involved in, I have to worry lol
Midtown Bienenstich: what will happen to Blumfield then?
You: yes he did indeed say that Midtown
You: he said in February, they are on their own
You: it was a marketing test
You: he didn't say "ploy"
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, of course it was.
You: but obviously it was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: welllll yes Midtown — the Blumfielders can buy their land in mid-Feb, but then it'll be like "regular mainland"
You: I have the transcript
You: basically he was less than helpful
Cocoanut Koala: yes, and as a builder for Blumfield, I was very distressed that they would not allow zoning in such an obvious place
Midtown Bienenstich: I talked to a Linden about it.
You: well Pathfinder was also blathering about "we will give residents the tools to empower them to affect change"
You: and I was like
Midtown Bienenstich: That, was nothing short of a stupidity.
You: "Um, is there a tool called "llremoveLazarussign["
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Barbarra Blair: like what, a gun that demolishes neon signs or somehting?
You: what if Laz comes in there and puts up a sign?
Midtown Bienenstich: Blumfield needed a few more "test:
Barbarra Blair: could I kill glowing trees?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Personally I'm not paranoid enough, as you know, but I'm always afraid of "bad implementation" of technological thingies without proper previous discussion, and only "after-the-fact" fixes...
You: yes yes
You: so let's be practical here
You: can we a) ask the Lindens to have a community meeting just on this topic
Midtown Bienenstich: for example, do shops sell more in places that are fully residential and occupied by newbies?
You: b) make sure those with a stake in it who run communities already zoned come to it
Midtown Bienenstich: a lot and a lot.
You: c) make up a white paper on what we'd like to see in such tools so as not to be OBE'd
You: I have my paper on the 24 functions
Cocoanut Koala: OBE'd?
You: they usually ignore that
Barbarra Blair: And what is the difference between a shop and a model home, for example?
You: Over Taken By Events
You: OBE'd
You: Hi Anita
Cocoanut Koala: I agree with a, b, and c.
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, Hi
You: this blue cube here has an interview with Philip
You: in which he talks about the zoning and tools we're trying to figure out here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh Prokofy, that sounds perfect
You: so touch it and get it
Anita Langdon: Hello everyone
You: from Metaverse Messenger at www.metaversemessenger.com if you want to see the whole story
Midtown Bienenstich: we definetly have to bring this up at two hall.
You: but I put the bits about the zoning here in the box
Midtown Bienenstich: *town
Barbarra Blair: phone afk
You: well town halls are madness
You: did you see the other day?
Midtown Bienenstich: I know.
You: it was the zooiest I've seen
Midtown Bienenstich: but, they are effective.
Midtown Bienenstich: yesl, lol.
You: imagine a meeting, where Robin has to shout "Give Prokofy a turn, he has the right to speak"
Midtown Bienenstich: more like a City Hall.
You: that says it all ROFL
Cocoanut Koala: that was fun at first, then got headachy
You: yes yes City not Town
Midtown Bienenstich: I think we had, not-so-bright residents wasting time.
Midtown Bienenstich: that Anshe.
Justice Soothsayer: maybe an organized forum w speakers, then open mike
You: well these Lindens themselves are to blame for not running the speaker's box correctly
Justice Soothsayer: like a debate, followed by questions
Anita Langdon: yes I had to reread the meeting afterwards to get anything of it
Midtown Bienenstich: what a waste of Linden-time >.<
You: they let a stupid spamming tool from Thinkers -- sorry Gwyn -- run their lives
You: when they could be running it manually as humans and policing it
Cocoanut Koala: that sounds good, justice!
Midtown Bienenstich: despite the madness, people were informed.
Midtown Bienenstich: of what?/.. I dont know
You: yes I think a panel discussion works great, with 3-4 speakers
You: I have done this at Gilded Cage
You: so you have a lInden speak, then mabe a few residents
Justice Soothsayer: panel is good, but only if you allow some time for open discussion afterwords
You: then open Q and A
You: well we always do
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, organization
You: what would be the point of a panel among yourselves?
You: this isn't SLOG
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They seem to be good at managing 10-15 people in a meeting, but not 80
Cocoanut Koala: and one of us could speak with the ideas we have formulated
Cocoanut Koala: and others who may have prepared.
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, I have never seen so many people gathered anywhwre.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol, my client stopped rezzing people after 50
You: Gwyn has anyone done any papers on communities in SL? I mean short ones, not the voluminous records of Neualtenberg -- or is there a short form of Nberg?
You: and Slate?
Justice Soothsayer: Prok, i dont want to open the democracy island can-of-worms, but i've been involved in the Supreme Court build with the idea that it could be a forum for discussion of SL governance issues.
You: well I'll be sure to fight that hammer and tong Justice
Midtown Bienenstich: I am a Slate Resident
You: it has no legitimacy
Midtown Bienenstich: I have a home in Slate.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe not that I know about, prokofy.
Cocoanut Koala: justice - i am a member of democracy island, but no one has ever told me anything
Cocoanut Koala: really
You: like I said you can't just plunk down a court and declare yourself a justice and say you'll run my disputes for me
Cocoanut Koala: Are there plans there to come up withthese tools to handle group zoning?
You: Justices are usually elected or appointed in RL, not just people who chose a name out of a list
Midtown Bienenstich: and in Slate, we all get along.. but everything's done by a single person.
You: Yes let's clarify the facts here
Justice Soothsayer: never intended to do so - just building a place for the dicussions
Cocoanut Koala: ok good
Midtown Bienenstich: Indeed, we don't even "want" to have a democracy.
You: has Democracy Island been in talks, formal or informal, with the Lindens, about reforming the group tools?
Cocoanut Koala: true, midtown, that's why azure islands works
Cocoanut Koala: better put, prok
You: well um "just a place for discussion" with funding, Lindens, a closed island, etc. is a statement all itself
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would seriously like to hear an official answer on that question as well, Prokofy.
Cocoanut Koala: seconded
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope to extract it on Saturday ;)
Midtown Bienenstich: Isn't there a "Grand Opening" tommorrow?
You: Let me paste to you the official answer I got from Robin about DI
You: brb
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is, Midtown
Gwyneth Llewelyn: However
Cocoanut Koala: good, cause i can't be there for the saturday stuff
Midtown Bienenstich: Yep, see ya there Gwyn :)
Cocoanut Koala: I want to know EXACTLY what they are planning for us.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have to admit that most people involved at the Democracy Island project only know about a "fragmented" version of it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it Cocoanut
Cocoanut Koala: understood
Midtown Bienenstich: I think it's a laser weapon that will enslave us all ..
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's the LEAST we can ASK!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Midtown
Midtown Bienenstich: Project LinDAD
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What it *started* with, was simply a college semester assignment
You: first, I want to seek immunity from prosecution from Justice and other AR'ers for disclosure of a convo from a Linden
Cocoanut Koala: actually it's me - i have a new dollar bananaphone avatar I plan to send you all mad with
Midtown Bienenstich: LinDEAD
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can share the things that I was told, if you wish....
You: I want the Monica defense here first before disclosure
Cocoanut Koala: yes
You: Monica defense in place then?
Cocoanut Koala: huh?
You: for non-Americans Monica being you know, Monica Lewinsky and all that
You: who sought immunity form prosecution etc
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Midtown Bienenstich: ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, *that* Monica :)
Justice Soothsayer: i'm no prosecutor
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Midtown Bienenstich is effectively lost.
Cocoanut Koala: i'm american and i don't get the allusion, but anyway . . .
Barbarra Blair: I'm so used to being lost that it feels normal.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww lol
Midtown Bienenstich: Okay, can we talk about multi-sim sales?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway — so far, I've heard that Democracy Island is "three" different projects ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
Cocoanut Koala: brb need ice
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's a good one
Barbarra Blair: I don't see the difference with what happens already.
Barbarra Blair: The same people buy up all the auctions.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither do I, unless I'm really completely narrow-sighted
Midtown Bienenstich: nope, it's not that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and too surprised at seeing people interested in buying *40* sims at a time!
Midtown Bienenstich: it's that the Lindens announce prokects in Linden speak.
Barbarra Blair: 40 good grief.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But 10 sims at a time, yes, Anshe will like it!
You: Democracy Island is a private project to support New York Law Schools research efforts in the intersection of real life civics and virtual space as a medium. It's really their call if they want Nota Bene to be part of their project.
Midtown Bienenstich: It's gojng to be zoning!
You: ok there's the quote from Robin
Midtown Bienenstich: ..and that's all they tell us.
Barbarra Blair: But that is a private Island.
You: as part of a longer letter answering my Abuse Report on Zarf for running a high profile business as a Linden alt
Midtown Bienenstich: to make us think and have discussions.. they add something..
Midtown Bienenstich: like "covenants"
You: so DI is a "private project"
You: that can make its own "calls" as to whom they involve
You: and all that's well and good
Barbarra Blair: So can any land owner.
You: but
You: unanswered
You: is the issue of whether their theory of groups, their notions of tools, their concept of land, etc. is informing the LL process of reform
Cocoanut Koala: back
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I tell you what was *told* me about Democracy Island, two months ago?
You: these things are informal
You: ok
Barbarra Blair: go Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Cocoanut Koala: well, I am especially interested if they plan to do tools regarding zoning
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a) it's a semester assignment for NYLS students
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, perhaps I"m thinking of city zoning.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for them to think about "tools" to help along public meetings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: held my town halls
You: yes a number of the members -- but not all! -- have the last name "Democracy" as part of that school project
Midtown Bienenstich: I think LL has another plan.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: by RL town halls
Khamon Fate wonders if he's gone bonkers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was a)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Two months ago
Midtown Bienenstich: or atl least will find another use for zoning, we can't think of yet.
You: hi Khamon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There was *nothing* on Democracy Island
You: well but read the media reports
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although the sim had been around for some 6 months.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So here comes b)
You: SNOOPY who is the SL Future Salon chairman and exec dir or staff or whatever of accelerating.org
You: gushed to the media that "Everyone is buying an island now"
Midtown Bienenstich: Hi
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) since college kids simply don't have experience on running complex projects in SL anyway
You: by which he means that Beth's grant from Florida State or whatever bought them the island at non-profit rates, and they made this thing
Khamon Fate: hallo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: they (NYLS) brought "external consultants"
You: well Gwyn it's not just college tho
You: it has Hiro!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that'll be c) hehe
Cocoanut Koala: hiya khamon
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, Tallahassee.
Khamon Fate: hey coco
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) was mostly Satchmo Prototype and his team
You: Hiro who is like Al Gore who is responsible for the "initiative for the creeation of the Internet" -- but of course we all know that a) Al didn't mean that and b) he wasn't the only one
You: so Hiro is like that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: who built some nifty things like: notecard givers
You: how does Satchmo relate to their thing?
Barbarra Blair: oh please
Gwyneth Llewelyn: According to Satchmo himself
You: notecard givers?
You: but we had that already?
You: yages ago
Gwyneth Llewelyn: he was just "contracted" to do what the college kids should have been doing all the time
Khamon Fate: hi barbarra you can never have enough Rs
You: in fact I take pride in being the first to point out that notedcard TAKER was actually the more revolutionary product
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, well, I'm being mean: "complex" notecard givers
You: you mean Satchmo's idea was to give them notecard givers???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh, like infoNet
Barbarra Blair: I guess they'll be building rotating stuff next
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nooo lol
You: oh across sims?
Cocoanut Koala: who contracted him?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: NYLS
You: lol Barbarra!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: through Jerry, I suppose
Cocoanut Koala: but - then - is he in the developer's directory?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh sure
You: BUY DEMOCRACY NOW!! EARN LINDEN $$$$$ CAMP HERE!!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Satchmo has a RL company
Gwyneth Llewelyn: just for doing SL things
You: well let's call him here?
Cocoanut Koala: notecard givers, i thought we had that already
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was a "metaphor" lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: seems I'm not so good at that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
Cocoanut Koala: metaphor for what, actually?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point is...
You: he's not online tho
You: we did
You: but I will ask him
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Satchmo told me...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Deocracy Island was something sold to a town hall in the NY state
You: and notecard TAKERS is what these people need to grasp a little better ROFL
Barbarra Blair thinks it was a hyperbole, which is her own specialty
You: hehe barbarra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Albany if I'm not mistaken names (sorry, I'm not an expert in US geography)
You: well Gwyn you're the one boosting Satchmo and Democracy on my blog, despite your rolling of eyes here
Cocoanut Koala: ok, well i dont get it, but no worries
You: so please speak in defense
Cocoanut Koala: go on
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, what thecity council was looking for...
Midtown Bienenstich wonders if it's so hard for LL to put alternate colors for chat on screen, that way.. our eyes can differentiate.
You: Albany?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: was a 3d environment
You: wait a second
You: are you confusing Tom's project?
You: Tom's park project
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that they would use to show citizens what they were planning to implement
You: is not a city hall
You: it's just a park
You: and one community board in the city of New York
You: in Queens or something
You: that has this land out by the airport
You: so he is helping to design it "using" SL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I'm pretty sure it was Democracy Island, and related to a city in the NY state
Barbarra Blair: Well, that's cool, but has nothing to do with zoning or governemtn--no new tools needed.
Justice Soothsayer: May I interject for a moment, Gweneth?
You: community boards themselves being controversial creatures in NYC
Midtown Bienenstich: you mean like a model?
You: not to be confused with city council etc
Khamon Fate: dim ark grey government buildings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a model, yes
You: hehe Khamon
Khamon Fate: why would anyone build a government building in sl
You: justice you don't ask permission to speak in a virtual world, you just speak and people scroll it
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Khamon Fate: oh my look at the time
Barbarra Blair: brb
You: you may proceed to the bench counsellor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a model, with a way for citizens to log in, and see what was going to be proposed, get notecards with info, leave suggestions, participate in meetings
Midtown Bienenstich made one ¬¬
Khamon Fate: i gotta be, see y'all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol
Justice Soothsayer: i dont want to ruin Gwenyth;s train of thought
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah well
You: bye Khamon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was Democracy Island 2 months ago
Khamon Fate is offline
Cocoanut Koala: well that sounds like it has nothing to do with us
Justice Soothsayer: but the park project is one of the things on democracy island
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We come now to c)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed it is
Cocoanut Koala: *she says, not worry8ng about interrupting her train of thought*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: While we were at b)
You: well Gwyn can you explain at what point DI morphed from this course in this B-grade law school into the center of our world here with Satchmo and Hiro and stuff lol?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I did a similar presentation in my country
Justice Soothsayer: because government requires feedback from citizens about things like park design
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to see the feedback I got
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy — that is c)
You: oh ok stay on b sorry
You: go ahead
Gwyneth Llewelyn: About which I'm utterly confused about!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I finish with b
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since when we stepped to c)
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I lost all references :(
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suddenly Hiro is there
You: at c or b?
Midtown Bienenstich: maybe a?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suddenly a replica of the US Supreme Court is there
Gwyneth Llewelyn: at c)
You: yes well Justice can tell us how that sprang full blow from the head of Zeus here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) *made sense* to me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, please, Justice.
Cherry Mason is offline
You: Justice how did you come in to this thingie?
Justice Soothsayer: Well, I;'m responsible for the Supreme Court build as it was my idea
Justice Soothsayer: I heard about Democracy Island from some of the PR
You: well Justice
Justice Soothsayer: I wanted to have a Supreme Court replica on *my* land as a place for students to discuss legal issues online
You: let me give an analogy to start the ball rolling here
Justice Soothsayer: but found it was too "expensive" in prims, land, etc. to do so myself
You: By day, I pay rent and living HUD housing
You: by night I tier a huge rentals empire LOL
You: so
You: is your thing kinda like that?
You: : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Justice Soothsayer: so I suggested that a Supreme Court build would be an interesting forum for conversations about SL governance
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
You: why did you take it off "my land"
Justice Soothsayer: I met with Ichiro Tokugawa who built the UN replica for the Thomas Barnett speech
You: is this a kinder form dictates function thing?
Justice Soothsayer: He adivsed it would never fit on my measly 4096 parcel
You: another modest fellow yes
You: I've had many a tangle with him on that subject.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
You: well no, I find that Supreme Courts need at least 8192 m2 IMHO
Justice Soothsayer: so SNOOPY offered the space on Democracy Island for i
You: third circuit courts might fit on a 4096 tho
Justice Soothsayer: *it
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
You: Vyshinsky found that 3-person Troikas could fit on the back of a train car in 3rd class.
Justice Soothsayer: its NOT an effort to impose US or any other kind of law on SL
You: well why the build then?
You: just to give it gravitas?
You: does it have no "message"?
Cocoanut Koala: what is it for?
Barbarra Blair pictures a western courthouse with a hanging judge on 1024 m2
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, may I safely assume that this has nothing to do with what Democracy Island was "planned" to be on either Phase A or Phase B?
You: Barbarra you are too hilarious tonight lol
Justice Soothsayer: certainly to provide some gravitas, a "Cool factor"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Barbarra, yes, you're inspired :)
You: well the cool factor then rules my world, dude and I get er well
You: *concerned*
You: the much ballyhooed Metaverse Superior Court just disappeared
Justice Soothsayer: at the same time, lots of folks have been talking about SL governance issues
You: they are MIA
You: I filed 2 inquiries about disputes and suits with them
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, has anyone heard Hank Ramos before?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So Justice, since you clearly joined the project on Phase c), what exactly were you told about Democracy Island?
Justice Soothsayer: and I think the folks who have been building on Democracy Island are interested in those issues as well
You: well the problem is that such high-profile, high-media saturation coverage, high-funded projects have a way of taking over, without real democratic participation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And before what, Midtown?
You: that's my concern
Justice Soothsayer: I dont believe there is a planned "c)", as it is very ad hoc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ack.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: really???
You: well SNOOPY posted about how it was " work in progress"
Barbarra Blair: The thing is, that sounds like a temporary project.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Somehow that sounds even more frightening!
Cocoanut Koala: I want to know
Justice Soothsayer: i suppose NYU is grant funded, and grants run out sometime
Cocoanut Koala: WHAT is democracy Island intending to do to us, the residents?
You: but look, Beth Noveck chairs the SOP each year, which is funded by LL, it is the most prestigious cconference in the game and cyber law business
Barbarra Blair: nothing for us.
You: you can't tell me that the people whom LL funds are somehow just one more island
Cocoanut Koala: TO us, I asked?
Barbarra Blair: I can't see that it affects me.
Justice Soothsayer: i dont believe there is any nefarious plan to do anything TO us
You: so basicalyl Justice you just networked and got yourself a scarce berth here on this demo sim
Cocoanut Koala: i didn't say it was nefarious
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe :)
You: we are just choads and feebs for not networking with the same rigour
Midtown Bienenstich: LInDEAD.
Cocoanut Koala: nonetheless, it may be imposed ON us, thus done TO us
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: Midtown what does LindDEAD mean?
Midtown Bienenstich: watch, when you all least expect it.. zap!
Midtown Bienenstich: My theory on the happenings at Democracy Island.
Justice Soothsayer: i'd like to see it used as a place for civil discussions about SL governance issues, such as the forum on zoning we talked about earlier
You: is that like: llCoOpt(var GoodIdea)
Cocoanut Koala: me too, justice
Cocoanut Koala: i just don't get that vibe
Gwyneth Llewelyn *is confused*
You: hmm Justice well when I have those discussions all the time or when others do, they just like to get the dwell traffic
You: *shrugs*
You: like I wouldn't go to give you all traffic on that to be honest
You: : )
You: seroiusly
You: it has such a profile, and is so esoteric and elite, that it has an impact
You: and it is being done not as some college class
Justice Soothsayer: seriously, the traffic issue hasnt come up at ALL in any conversations with anyone involved in the DI project
Cocoanut Koala: I get the vibe thjat it started out as a nyls kind of thing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, from a) — a student's assignment, to b) — a project to be sold to city councils to help them doing models of proposed changes in their cities, we come to c) ad-hoc projects without any purpose or plan?
You: but as something begging for pride of place here
Cocoanut Koala: but it has turned into something grander
Cocoanut Koala: that will affect all of us, without our being necessarily involved
You: Justice: try camp chairs
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Traffic will be eliminated anyway :)
You: LOl
You: oh when?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Midtown Bienenstich: she meant DI
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just Robin's suggestion
Barbarra Blair: You know, It stikes me that what is really going on here is that the Lindens are trying to make some corporate sales.
You: did you hear that for a fact?
You: please do not move from that chair Gwyn and keep dwelling up my land here
Justice Soothsayer: my point, prok, is that I don't think anyone is building anythin gon Democracy Island to generate traffic
Cocoanut Koala: i agree barbarra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe prokofy, I'll be glad to do that :)
Cocoanut Koala: i just fear that
Cocoanut Koala: it will turn into this other,
You: Justice I think you're missing the humour, nm
Cocoanut Koala: with blessings from lindens
You: Barbarra is this related to the "add a continent to my shopping cart" they are starting soon?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Barbarra Blair: Sure.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
You: I think so too.
Cocoanut Koala: i figure that, too, but it that add a continent has to be also for Nexus
Cocoanut Koala: and similar
You: The IBM guy, the Berkman Center at Harvard, the MSN guy -- all these are SOP regulars -- they will all want sims, and 40 will be the starting point
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, come on, guys.... if Democracy island has no real "project" behind it, how can it be "something" to show off interested/potential customers??
You: \they have the budgets
Barbarra Blair: Like, say, new sims names Blockbusters and Ronald McDonald land.
Midtown Bienenstich: Well, the Lindens (like any corporation) will always seek new and profitable business oppurtunities.
You: hahahahah
You: actually I don't think so
You: it will be more like Harvardland and BenandJerryLand
You: they will be lefty and trendy and causey-y
You: to fit the Better World motif
You: not gross commercialism and tacky products
Cocoanut Koala: it will be eggy
You: what did eggy say?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But this first attempt at "Better World" shows a frightening lack of structure!
Cocoanut Koala: saying, "Ok guys, we all hate bush and we hate people who like bush
You: someone was iming me about that
Midtown Bienenstich: If this does occur.
Cocoanut Koala: he said that MEANING IT
Midtown Bienenstich: then it will be only a breathe away.
You: well Gwyn Robin's defense is that it's a private project
You: who are WE to ask it to have structure?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Prokofy
Midtown Bienenstich: for a new company releasing an alternative to SL.
You: we only work here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in my dictionary
Gwyneth Llewelyn: projects have *structure*
Cocoanut Koala: me, i was im'ing you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, what is being "sold" in Democracy island?
You: I guess I just don't like elite projects with huge media impact to skip steps and step on indigenous processes and groups here
Cocoanut Koala: well IS it a private project?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice buildings? But we have them all over the place
You: it's like the World Bank coming in and putting in a dam
Cocoanut Koala: It CANT BE! IM in it!
Barbarra Blair: Well, if General Motors or BMW invests in an island, maybe they'll fix vehicles.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cocoanut — it was, during phase a) certainly
You: first, fix the servers
You: I'd like to see something other than grey squares when I fly around
Midtown Bienenstich: first, upgrade the complete architecture.
You: yes
Midtown Bienenstich: *server
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Midtown :)
You: yes fix the whole thing then poish it
Barbarra Blair: I'd like to see something besides for sale signs.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dangerous thoughts there :)
Midtown Bienenstich: But I think I've said this before.
You: *polish it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You did, yes :)
Midtown Bienenstich: the day a tryly worthy competitive metaverse is launched.
Midtown Bienenstich: we will have Havok3 by sunset )/
Midtown Bienenstich: :/
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not under the current business model of LL, Midtown
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we're drifting off-topic
Cocoanut Koala: Ok, so about the tools for land, are we agreed to that a b and c prok said earlier?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, Cocoanut
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm definitely all in favour
Cocoanut Koala: i say we vote on that, so as to get started on it
Cocoanut Koala: somebody else write it besides me, of course , lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So far, I pressed those points on emails to Robin, and a chat with Jesse
Cocoanut Koala: hiya rocks!
Midtown Bienenstich: for what Gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I like the whitebook idea
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i could use one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, scroll back, Midtown. Prokofy suggested a three-point approach for dealing with the zoning issues.
Cocoanut Koala: what were those three points, prok?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll scroll back... Prok seems to be in IM hell... and copy & paste again
Cocoanut Koala: a. ask for a city hall meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah thank you Cocoanut
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
Cocoanut Koala: with (subhead) Justice's idea
Cocoanut Koala: of having speakers, followed by discussion
You: sorry I have customers complaining about boxes
Cocoanut Koala: point c was, a whitepaper about how we think it would work best, the tools
Midtown Bienenstich: I started the trend :{
Cocoanut Koala: and I forget what point b was
Midtown Bienenstich: lol, we are officially calling it City Hall!
Midtown Bienenstich: *:P
You: yes yes
You: City Hall not Town Hall
Midtown Bienenstich: hahaha!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy Neva: b) make sure those with a stake in it who run communities already zoned come to it
Cocoanut Koala: it was good whhatever it was,lol
You: it's now officially bureaucratic and pointless LOL
Cocoanut Koala: oh yes!
Cocoanut Koala: also good
Gwyneth Llewelyn: definitely good, yes.
Cocoanut Koala: so i suggest somebody make up a notion of group tools which would work
Cocoanut Koala: and we could all see it, and sign it (or suggest changes)
Cocoanut Koala: someone who knows a lot
Cocoanut Koala: something simple, which puts power in OUR hands
Cocoanut Koala: and concurrently, that would be in preparation for,
Cocoanut Koala: ask for the City hall
Midtown Bienenstich: well, what about getting some feedback from successfully zoned sims?
Cocoanut Koala: so that "residents will have imput on
Midtown Bienenstich: like from Nexus and Adam
Cocoanut Koala: good idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree totally.
Cocoanut Koala: people hate these things coming down from above.
Cocoanut Koala: "input on what the tools will be"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: May I propose a suggestion?
Cocoanut Koala: and - let's face it - those of us here LIVE it, and we KNOW more about what works and what doesn't.
You: normally it is done with community groups, then assemblies, then parliaments
Cocoanut Koala: voting
You: I do wonder what would be the way to have democracy in this electronic soup
Cocoanut Koala: polls
You: but the Lindens want to skip all that
Cocoanut Koala: i suggested that Yumi script one, lol
You: well it would be helpful if we could VOTE NO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since Prokofy is almost a swearword that you can't even mention in Mature land these days... could be concentrate our suggestions on you, Cocoanut? :)
Cocoanut Koala: that would be everywhere
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *we
Midtown Bienenstich: oh yeah, that's right.
Cocoanut Koala: hey, i'm a swearword too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Cocoanut Koala: well IN THE GAME voting
Midtown Bienenstich: we aren't a democracy :(
Cocoanut Koala: we CAN be
Cocoanut Koala: and why shouldn't we be?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well perhaps not as bad, we all know you're Prokofy's alt, Cocoanut :)
Barbarra Blair: Naw. Democracy is just a tool for griefing.
You: Justice,honestly, your disputes thingie appears in a world where we *do not have the right or ability to vote no* -- we are WORSE OFF than the Soviet Union.
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree with Blair..
Cocoanut Koala: well maybe i'm more idealistic
Cocoanut Koala: why just have a island that pays lip service to it, and yet isn't?
Midtown Bienenstich: Remember the basic foundation for a successful democratic nation!
Cocoanut Koala: even voting, while not as good as representative democracy, is better than
Barbarra Blair: hyperbole, remember?
Midtown Bienenstich: informed citizens..
Cocoanut Koala: the lindens deciding our future based on what their friends say
Midtown Bienenstich: and intelligent.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeah.
Midtown Bienenstich: not to be rude.
Midtown Bienenstich: but the bulk of our populous are newbies taht think it's just a cool 3D game.
Cocoanut Koala: i;m not in favor of the intellegensia running a society
Cocoanut Koala: i'm in favor of the common man running it
Midtown Bienenstich: hell, I could pay $50 L for their votes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Barbarra Blair: exactly
Cocoanut Koala: well, that's a whole other complex thing, how to do it
Cocoanut Koala: for now
Cocoanut Koala: the ideas we have going for this land thing
Cocoanut Koala: a, b, and c
Cocoanut Koala: are excellent
Barbarra Blair: Look at the most popular places list--ugly goes to the top most of the time.
Midtown Bienenstich: right.
Cocoanut Koala: this is a sort of tangent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I'm more in favour of having the common man/woman having the *opportunity* to run it ;)
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is divided .
Midtown Bienenstich: People that care.
Cocoanut Koala: for apll practical purposes, we are facing this land tools thing
Midtown Bienenstich: People that don;'t
You: What's most scary about this "no vote no" stuff is that Linden tekkies and principals JUSTIFY it in the name of "guiding" residents "toward more positive proposals" -- it's Orwellian.
Cocoanut Koala: (and won't require any messy voting or anything)
Cocoanut Koala: and the structure proposed here will work well
Cocoanut Koala: so , are we all here agreed on a-c?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: yes
Cocoanut Koala: me too
Midtown Bienenstich: yep
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i propose we let prok and gyneth draft the white paper
Cocoanut Koala: anyone second that?
Justice Soothsayer: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, a) and b) are rather easy to do, and can be done individually.
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, less work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: eek lol
Midtown Bienenstich: -- for us.
Cocoanut Koala: all in favor?
You: well in fact I'd like to see just one person to put up a resolution on the voting thingie saying: "we would like the tools changed to be able to vote no on any proposal"
Cocoanut Koala: prok
Barbarra Blair: I frequnelty wonder why the Linden's don't do some social experiements before making changes--which that could be proposed.
Cocoanut Koala: i'm talking about this now, though
Cocoanut Koala: trying to get through the land tools thing.
You: well Gwyn I can send you the thing about the 24 functions in the group to toggle and the ramifications
Gwyneth Llewelyn: To be honest, I can only see how it *might* work on a very limited basis
Cocoanut Koala: i just volunteereed you for the work, hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I'd prefer to see your 24 functions, prokofy.
Cocoanut Koala: ok - well white paper doesn't have to be prepared and agreed to by us
You: Barbarra: can we be sure they don't experiment? Without us knowing"?
Cocoanut Koala: until AFTER we get the meeting going!
You: Is Lazarus an experiment?
Cocoanut Koala: and suggest landowners to be on the speakers panel
Cocoanut Koala: Prok, Adam, Nexus
Cocoanut Koala: Anshe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully not, Prok :(
Cocoanut Koala: for example:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bob from Slate?
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, Prok kills the resolution'
You: why don't you want me on the speakers' panel?
Barbarra Blair: I tend to notice when I'm being jerked around.
Cocoanut Koala: dont know him, but if he's one, yes
Cocoanut Koala: anyone who is one
Rocks Diamond: :p
Midtown Bienenstich: I know Bob.
You: oh I can't file resolutions, I'm banned from the forums, and disenfranchised as a result
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nooo lol — the "hopefully not" was "Laz being an experiment!!!"
Cocoanut Koala: who runs large plots of land
You: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Hawk Lightcloud is online
Cocoanut Koala: OK: So who is going to ask for the town hall meeting? I suggest a delegation.
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Cocoanut Koala: Perhaps Justice,
Midtown Bienenstich: What about Ingersoll?
Cocoanut Koala: Ingrid would be good as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blue Burke? :D
Midtown Bienenstich: *Ingrid.
Midtown Bienenstich: and also JUro and Barnes
Justice Soothsayer: Folks, do we even need to ask for an official "town hall meeting" - why not just have one?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hiro Queso?
Midtown Bienenstich: they don't mind Prok, lol.
Cocoanut Koala: hey - not home builders
Cocoanut Koala: LAND RUNNERS
Cocoanut Koala: OK - whoever is going to be the delegation to
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: whoever is going to be the delegation to ask for the city hall
You: Justice of course we have them without any permission
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Socialist Utopian Communistic Democratic Republic of neualtenburg? ;)
Cocoanut Koala: would also have a list of people they propose for speakers.
You: but to get Lindens to schedule them and be in them
You: you have to get them
Midtown Bienenstich: well, people trust builders.
Midtown Bienenstich: um.
You: Five Lies in Five Words!
Cocoanut Koala: Each speaker would prepare their ideas of how the land tools should work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: NOT a bunch of philosophy, or arguing.
Midtown Bienenstich: Rock just committed suicide
You: Gosh I don't trust builders Midtown!
Midtown Bienenstich: *Rocks
Rocks Diamond: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol poor Rock!
Cocoanut Koala: Who would like to be on a commi8ttee to approach the lindens with the plan for city hall meeting?
Rocks Diamond: i fell off
Midtown Bienenstich: send Prok.
Cocoanut Koala: I would volunteer to be one of those
Justice Soothsayer: i'll be glad to help
You: well IL won't be on it
You: becuase then they'll ignore it
You: it should be Worthies like Gwyn
Midtown Bienenstich: yeah!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would also put more the emphasis of "stakeholders in SL": people that pay for huge tier to build communities.
Cocoanut Koala: ok, gwyn, me, who else?
Midtown Bienenstich: go Gywn!
You: bona fide SIC members
Midtown Bienenstich: ME@!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, i don't own land :(
Midtown Bienenstich: :D
You: well could you please get people who pay tier?
Rocks Diamond: me
You: ask Anita Langdom
Midtown Bienenstich: I'm known a bit.
You: who was just here
You: I mean lots of tier
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can talk to them, sure.
Cocoanut Koala: yes exactly, gywneth - because they have the EXPERIENCE
You: she may pay more tier than me not sure
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She does?
Cocoanut Koala: *sits back and rests*
You: she runs Langdon realty
Gwyneth Llewelyn: See — I don't even know half of them, prok!
Midtown Bienenstich: I will ask Anita
Midtown Bienenstich: :( -- fine.. just cause I'm a poor basic.
Midtown Bienenstich: IN fact.
Midtown Bienenstich: I wil see if I can bring her back here.
You: she is near me in a lot of areas so I cooperate with her and buy from her sometimes
You: she's up on the new continent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Midtown Bienenstich: I invited here firstplace.
You: well she left without saying anything not sure why
You: perhaps I was ranting about something : )
Cocoanut Koala: I meant - LARGE LANDOWNERS for the PANEL OF SPEAKERS
Midtown Bienenstich: She told me she was lost on the discussion of Dmo-ISla
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
Cocoanut Koala: not for the COMMITTE TO APPROACH the LINDENS about the CITY HALL.
Midtown Bienenstich: *Demo Island
You: Coco I can be on the panel, I just didn't want to beo n the committee to APPROACH
Cocoanut Koala: right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah ok ok
Cocoanut Koala: exaactly
You: Justice, dude, you already have a huge high-profile thingie
Barbarra Blair: I wonder if Forsythia Wishbringer would have some ideas.
Cocoanut Koala: so, who would like to approach?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: justice would be good
Justice Soothsayer: be glad to
Cocoanut Koala: great!
You: maybe just stay with that?
Cocoanut Koala: gwynetth, help him on that?
Midtown Bienenstich: well, I want to be part of the team
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure
You: well but I don't want DI getting intertwined with an effort designed to COUNTERACT DI
You: sorry but there it is
Cocoanut Koala: midtown too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, I already did an ad hoc request anyway.
Cocoanut Koala: midtown could be on the request thingie
Midtown Bienenstich: Can I fetch coffee n' stufff?
You: I would like people who pay tier, organize communities, run groups
Cocoanut Koala: the more the better
You: not peeopl who TALK ABUT this and wish to do it for others without their participation
You: sorry but there it is
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: then we will leave it up to you three to plan and do yuour approach however you see fit
You: it's not about fetching coffee
Cocoanut Koala: then - the idea would be , major landowners, sellers, renters, leasers, could
Midtown Bienenstich: that's fine, it was only a joke.
Cocoanut Koala: ask to be on panel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Cocoanut :) I think yours was the only card I didn't have, hehe
Midtown Bienenstich: I am taling to Anita though.
You: you'd have to put a Lindenon the panel too
Cocoanut Koala: happy to have yours!
Cocoanut Koala: to GIVE THEIR IDEAS for the BEST GROUP TOOLS plan to handle ZONING.
Cocoanut Koala: well yes a linden, too.
Midtown Bienenstich: wait!
Midtown Bienenstich: guys, Khamon!
You: or maybe not?
Cocoanut Koala: With each panel member having a limited speak time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right — Governor Linden, who owns the most land among the Lindens, LOL
Cocoanut Koala: Linden, yes.
You: yes Khamon is good he has been in this for a long time
You: in several communities
Cocoanut Koala: Put the linden last on the speakers.
You: yes invite Governor Linden lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khamon, surely, yes!
Cocoanut Koala: people must hear that.
Cocoanut Koala: must hear from lindens
You: let's get some accountability from this guy
Barbarra Blair: gotta run--bye guyes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *girl :)
Cocoanut Koala: whichever linden is most involved with the new idea for group tools for zoning.
You: let's ask him if he plans to sell off his roadside to RL advertisers
You: bye thanks for coming!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Cocoanut — that's probably either Philip or Robin :P
Cocoanut Koala: OK, so what have we not covered?
You: well let's stay on that for a minute
You: WHICH linden?
You: Lee Linden is the Concierge
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no no
You: he deals with islands and landowners
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lee — NEVER
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: lket them decide their own linden
You: yeah I know Gwyn
Cocoanut Koala: of course.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
You: but sometimes the SOURCE of the problem should be invited into the dialogue
You: I know I know
You: : )
You: Lee rules my world : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like your mind works, prokofy :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *how
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Cocoanut Koala: We will be PROACTIVE on this one! And get something actually useful for everyone!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah well. If it has to be Lee, well...
You: well Lee is the one we have to go to and he always has some irritable condescending response
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It makes sense it's one of the concierges, with that I agree.
Midtown Bienenstich: Anita says she will first have to look at the proposal.
Cocoanut Koala: i say, do you not see that they must choose their own representative, the lindens?
Midtown Bienenstich: know what she's representing.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, ty, Midtown.
You: "That sim of yours isn't really crashing, Prokofy, you just have a poor connection at your upload stream blah blah"
You: well Robin is in charge of group tools reform
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cyn would be a better choice, but I'm not sure if she reports to Lee
Cocoanut Koala: well, hey
You: she told me something like "I'm going to be focusing on this in the next quarter"
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: they HAVE to be the ones to say, it is their workday.
You: so first I created a group called Group Tools Suck
You: just to give you some history
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Midtown Bienenstich: Um, just to know.
You: and I said "Robin, would you like to sit in on this meeting?"
You: LOL
You: well then Forseti quit
You: he had joined
Midtown Bienenstich: as of now, we have no literature on the group, right?
You: he quit because of some furry or sometbody who didn't want to be in the same group as me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-(
Cocoanut Koala: on what group?
You: and Forseti wanted to "look good" to the Lindens
You: he didn't like my group name
You: and I said, Robin already saw it, and admitted it is a fitting title
Cocoanut Koala: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry he quit, prokofy, despite your opinion, I value Forseti's opinions...
You: but it coould be called Blue PIneapples
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
You: well Forseti may have gone to form his own private group
You: so Travis Lambert and a few others and I kicked it around for awhile
Cocoanut Koala: which is another issue
You: but then we had a worse problem
You: which was telehubs and p2p
You: so we let it disband
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... of course... I'd also prefer something more sensible like "Zoning Tools Committe" ;)
You: I neede dother groups etc
Cocoanut Koala: Therefore - speed is of the essence.
Cocoanut Koala: There may be SIX such groups as this one sitting around discussing the same thing!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do you think so, Cocoanut?
Cocoanut Koala: In order that everyone may participate,
You: I wanted to start another group called sipmly Mainlanders
You: to work the Laz issue
Cocoanut Koala: and not just have it all get coopted behind closed doors.
You: and then the zoning issue too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cocoanut — are you speculating, or aware of some groups doing the same?
You: I don't want to carry water for PI owners, they have enough attention from Lee and others
Cocoanut Koala: i am speculating
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If yuo know them, I'd say, we should at least try to contact them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suggestion: grab attention on a forum post? Since it looks like they didn't come *here*
Cocoanut Koala: good idea
Cocoanut Koala: maybe a BETTER idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It has always unforeseen side-effects
Cocoanut Koala: to say that we are trying to get a city hall on the forums,
Cocoanut Koala: before we even DO
Cocoanut Koala: otherwise WE look all secretive
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A post stating the three points a b and c
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tend to agree.
Cocoanut Koala: let's you two work that up first then, before committee to approach
Justice Soothsayer: good idea to err on the side of openness
Cocoanut Koala: cause i know you're just gluttons for punishment!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I second that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and LOL
Cocoanut Koala: all in favor?
Cocoanut Koala: me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, definitely
Cocoanut Koala: anyone opposed?
Justice Soothsayer: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know what...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: post this whole conversation on the forums as well ;)
Cocoanut Koala: NOOOOOOOOOOO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahaa
Cocoanut Koala: I will sound like a paranoid!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was just a suggestion :)
Cocoanut Koala: well, i don't think we need to be that open at this point, erm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, iRL meetings have mostly "acts" or "minutes" or whatever you may call them, and not always full translations ;)
Cocoanut Koala: minutes, fine
Cocoanut Koala: me saying Democracy Island is going to bury us all, No
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Cocoanut Koala: lololololololol
Justice Soothsayer: strike that from the minutes
Cocoanut Koala: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: right :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn is secretely hiding a Linden Broadcast thingy and this meeting is being echoed on the WA
Cocoanut Koala: oh well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don't worry, they hardly speak English there :)
Cocoanut Koala: i have found in my longish life
Cocoanut Koala: that generally, if there is something I'm concerned about, or have a question about, so do many others
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope you're right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: because, hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: after that community roundtable
Cocoanut Koala: because hmmm . . . what?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tossed a few ideas around
Gwyneth Llewelyn: with closer friends
Cocoanut Koala: yes me as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and there wasn't much feedback really
Cocoanut Koala: this was a preparatory thing, not on the record
Gwyneth Llewelyn: except for "oh, if they're zoning communities, I'll be out of the zoned sims"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, something similar to "not in my backyard"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and "I'm out of the loop on that"
You: I'd like to post it on my blog
Cocoanut Koala: well, there is much, much desire for zoning, i know that
You: because I don't think there's anything secret really
Cocoanut Koala: not everyone
You: but you decide
You: the reality is people don't have time to plow through long transcripts
You: so what's the final action plan?
Cocoanut Koala: which means - only those who want to hang me will bother!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, a "condensed" version might be more effective.
You: Also Justice, could you let us know whether you are in this meeting in your personal capacity or representing DI and on a reconaissance mission?
Cocoanut Koala: oh he's not reconaissancing
You: also for extra credit, let us know if you are a RL judge or lawyer -- but that's optional : )
Justice Soothsayer: only personal capacity
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
You: it's ok to reconniassance
Justice Soothsayer: Always willing to go for the extra credit, prok. I teach law in RL.
Cocoanut Koala: yeah but he isn't
Midtown Bienenstich: Will there be a meeting with participating owners soon?
Cocoanut Koala: Really!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh wow :)
You: OK
You: excuse me
Midtown Bienenstich: To draft out the plan, etc?
Cocoanut Koala: what is your stance on the lazarus thing, then?
Cocoanut Koala: no
You: but is this a "those who can't do teach" kind of thing? I apologize in advance for the rudeness, but you didn't answer the question
Cocoanut Koala: you have misunderstood what i meant, midtown
You: teach does that mean "admitted to the bar"?
Cocoanut Koala: i meant - each major landowner gets to present his OWN ideas and plan on the panel.
Cocoanut Koala: "We" would be one of those groups.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: Adam and Nexus, might be another.
Cocoanut Koala: and so forth.
Midtown Bienenstich: Oh
Midtown Bienenstich: completely missed hat.
Midtown Bienenstich: *that
Cocoanut Koala: we just happen to be all groupy here cause ... well . . .cause why i;m not sure
Justice Soothsayer: I am admitted to the bar in DC, Ohio, and many federal courts, including the RL US upreme court.
You: OK,k so you have RL credentials
Cocoanut Koala: The idea is, with all the input from the various landowners
You: but do you have any idea of this world? of its people? of its issues?
Cocoanut Koala: better plans for group tools for zoning would emerge.
Gwyneth Llewelyn is slightly in awe now :)
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, Cocoa.
Midtown Bienenstich: but..
You: do you have any notion what it means to just impose some model on indigenous peoples?
Justice Soothsayer: only what i've seen in the last few months
Midtown Bienenstich: we need some type of coordination effort.
Justice Soothsayer: and of course from reading your blog, prok
Cocoanut Koala: well,
Midtown Bienenstich: at least to get it started.
Cocoanut Koala: thats what you are in on, midtown.
Cocoanut Koala: First,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe indeed
You: If you are a RL judge and lawyer, you know that the justice branch exists in a country government context of 3 branches
Cocoanut Koala: the idea gets oposted on the forums.
You: you don't just have the Supreme Court plunked down on the tabula resa of the State of Ohio with no context
Cocoanut Koala: Second, you are on the committee with gwyn to put forth the idea to the lindens
Cocoanut Koala: for this city hall, with these panelists.
Midtown Bienenstich: Oh.. I just mislead poor Anita.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I briefly ask both Midtown and Justice how your schedule on Sunday is?
Cocoanut Koala: plus hopefully some on forums would like the city hall idea, too.
You: Gwyn please don't be in awe of people with RL credentials.
Cocoanut Koala: the panelists would be major landowners, they would speak, then everyone could discuss.
Midtown Bienenstich: Avaiaalbe.
You: People can have virtual credentials too.
Justice Soothsayer: i'd have some time on sunday, gwyn
Midtown Bienenstich: I have a laptop, in case I'm mobile.
You: That is what Second Life is all about.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And you're right, Prokofy.
Justice Soothsayer: and i'll second prok on the credentials thing - he's absolutely right
Ravenglass Rentals in Erie $100: Store rented for 7 days...
Cocoanut Koala: well i'm not in AWE of his credentials whatsoever - have too many of my own *strut*
You: Then Justice if you are all those things, then you'd know how absurd it is
You: to put the US Supreme Court
Cocoanut Koala: but its good he has this background, and these skills
You: on the job of handling a builders' dispute in Columbus, OH
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure :)
You: context is all here
You: you seem to act like there is a tabula resa here for you to experiment on
You: and there is on your island
You: but not on my island, if you follow me
Justice Soothsayer: context can also be informed by RL
Cocoanut Koala: justice, you are kinda new
You: well you aren't just some island
Justice Soothsayer: there;s a lot of RL experience with zoning, condo assns, etc
Cocoanut Koala: did you come here because of D.I., or were yuou already here, or would you be here at some point anyway?
You: you are in a world of a mainland and an island
You: yes but what good does that do?
You: when here it is ALL HOUSTOn ALL THE TIME
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Justice was here before DI...
Cocoanut Koala: it will help though
You: ALL HOUSTIN ALL THE TIME
You: try to grasp what that means
You: NO ZONING
Justice Soothsayer: it can provide some models that can be adapted for use here
Cocoanut Koala: he can translate it, prok
You: and utter insantiy
You: no I disagree
You: you have to first look at the exigencies of this virtual world
Cocoanut Koala: and we can help influence him to translate it the way we want him to! ;)
You: and see the real issues here
You: the authentic real issues of the virtual world
Cocoanut Koala: well, we can tell him those issues, see
You: and they are not about what somebody did in Columbus
Cocoanut Koala: that's why he's here - to listen
You: Coco, he's here to listen with a funded project and tier he doesn't pay
Cocoanut Koala: i know
You: it has no legitimaacy for me prima facae
Cocoanut Koala: doesn't matter
You: he can talk like anyone
Cocoanut Koala: well no, doesn't have to, for it to be useful
You: but he is not someone trying to cope with the real issues
Cocoanut Koala: for him to be a useful citizen
Cocoanut Koala: he WILL
You: and I resent people like that formulating policy and tools FOR me without me
Cocoanut Koala: he IS a resident!
Justice Soothsayer: prok, i have an impeach bush sign in my back yard too
Cocoanut Koala: well, that's why we have this whole plan going here
You: yes but you aren't doing anything about it
You: I am
You: you are merely proposing theories that the Lindens may or may not crib
Cocoanut Koala: now
Cocoanut Koala: that's not quite fair, is it?
Justice Soothsayer: not true - i just signed up for committee to have a town hall about it
You: Coco it is
You: because these issues are an abstract salon topic for Future Salon
You: for pepole like Justice
Cocoanut Koala: What is our goal?
You: it's a hobby
You: for me it is not a hobby
Cocoanut Koala: It is to have control, or at least input in, this process.
You: Coco
Cocoanut Koala: If he can help us with that, that is as good as if i can help us with that.
You: you are already lending legitimacy to this idiocy
You: it has none
You: absolutely non
Cocoanut Koala: (I just like arguing with Prok)
You: it's a school project
Cocoanut Koala: no - i think it is a bunch of egghead pie in the sky
You: by some grade-B law school professor at that
Cocoanut Koala: but it IS going to affect us, if we don't deal with it!
You: Justice would be able to explain that
Cocoanut Koala: I figure Justice can see that.
You: why should I be bowing and genuflecting to that?
Cocoanut Koala: i'm not bowing!
You: RL credentials are immaterial
Cocoanut Koala: or genuflecting!
Cocoanut Koala: i'm INCLUDING>
You: Coco, it's not about including in a discussion
You: it's about legitimizing this Democracy Island
You: which I refuse to do
Cocoanut Koala: i'm the last to bow and genefulect to a bunch of university people coming in to tell us what to do
You: it has no legitimacy
Cocoanut Koala: well
You: it was not elected or apointed
Justice Soothsayer scrolls up, and sees that Prok was the one who raised the question of credentials first
Cocoanut Koala: but can't we consider justice as a person of his own?
Cocoanut Koala: not SOLELY defined by D.I.?
You: I asked about credentials to see if you were going to wave them around
You: and I see you are
Justice Soothsayer: only when asked, prok
You: you did the same on my blog Judge
You: you tried to make some technical correction
Midtown Bienenstich: I have to go now.
Cocoanut Koala: i have no intention of letting us be coopted by D.I. people, or our interests
You: without grasping the larger issue of legitimacy
Midtown Bienenstich: but it's been awesome talking with you all.
You: how can you plunk down a Supreme Court, with no government?
You: no elections?
Cocoanut Koala: see yo ulater midtown!
You: no parliament?
You: you think it's ok to have a pretty building to be a Hollywood stage?
Midtown Bienenstich: Cocoa, Gwyn, I'm still partially confused on my duties.
Justice Soothsayer: Its a 3D replica, not an institution
You: then I agree with Barbarra
You: put it on a 1024
You: make it a Western with a hanging judge
Cocoanut Koala: gwyn will get with you on sunday, i think
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I will, yes.
Midtown Bienenstich: great.
Midtown Bienenstich: laterz, all!
You: My 3-D world wants to have institutions, not hobbies for you.
You: That's where we differ.
Justice Soothsayer: indeed
You: I want real courts with real decisions.
Cocoanut Koala: well, we are the branch that's real
You: Not toys.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll try to get back to you both (Justice & Midtown)
Justice Soothsayer: thanks, gwyn
You: So far what we've seen is 2 college kids making a term paper toy
You: that evaporated
Cocoanut Koala: well this is a slam dunk
You: and we've seen Zarf become a Linden
Cocoanut Koala: the residents are not going to allow this group of college people make our world
You: that's where we are on the local justice issue
You: well I think conflicting notions of the world are at stake here
You: Justice and Beth and Snoopy think this is just a tool
Cocoanut Koala: i agree
You: a platform to do stuff with
Justice Soothsayer: or whether it is inedeed a world
You: it's all blank for them
You: but it's not blank for me
Cocoanut Koala: but - by sitting in with us, he LEARNS it is real
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, I'm not disagreeing with Prokofy ;) It just seems to me that D.I.'s "current project" is, to be kind, "nebulous" right now. I thought Phase c) was much more planned.
You: I already have tools and I already practice governance.
You: as do thousands of other people here
Cocoanut Koala: hence why we have all this plan.
You: it's already colonized
You: it's not the moon
Justice Soothsayer: your'e right, gwyn
Cocoanut Koala: i think justice has met some of the inhabitants, lol
Cocoanut Koala: he has met the enemy, and they is us!
Cocoanut Koala: kik
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
You: well here's one inhabitant that will give the college stuff a run for its money
Cocoanut Koala: me too
You: I don't get a cut-rate non-profit sim to run my hardknocks governanc e project
You: I work my fucking ass off
You: and I PAY to do it
Cocoanut Koala: right
Cocoanut Koala: and it is not a college/non college thing anyway
You: It is Coco
Justice Soothsayer: its been a very interesting discussion, but its getting late
Cocoanut Koala: i got academic credentials out the kazoo (almost)
You: a college has this project funded by another college
You: with college kids and professors
Cocoanut Koala: i know
Cocoanut Koala: nice meeting you justice!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, Prokofy, I'm a bit confused if that's what Democracy Island really *is* about. I hope to find out some more on it tomorrow.
Justice Soothsayer: thanks again for an interesting and provocative conversation
You: Gwyn I think I get it more now
You: it's people who think they can run something
Cocoanut Koala: see you later justice!
You: and who won't listen to the concept of "nothing about us /without us"
You: they think there is no "us" to worry about
Justice Soothsayer: good night, all
Cocoanut Koala: they will learn there is
Cocoanut Koala: night!
You: Hardly
Cocoanut Koala: they will
Cocoanut Koala: and rue the day, too
You: Coco, people with RL credentials will wave them
Cocoanut Koala: THEN I WILL WAVE MINE!
Rocks Diamond: coco look at me
You: and say why should I, admitted to the bar in the District of Columbia, listen to some blowhard in here?
Cocoanut Koala: i see you, you are quite frenetic and have been for some time
You: they are trolls and griefers
You: lock them up
Cocoanut Koala: They will, they have to
Cocoanut Koala: we are a democracy, whether anyone wants to admit it or not
Rocks Diamond: Who are trolls and griefers?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "we"?
You: Well my RL credentials include having to fight people like this in RL of course LOL
You: so they don't scare me
Cocoanut Koala: yes, we, all of us
Cocoanut Koala: it won't do for the lindens to pretend we aren't
You: but honestly, the whole DI thing is elitist, and it's happenstance
You: it's whoever networked
Cocoanut Koala: that's the source of all their troubles
You: whoever knows so-and-so
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh
Cocoanut Koala: yes it is, but it is HERE
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
You: well Coco why give it legitimacy?
Cocoanut Koala: ok maybe some of us are socialists
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How is Second Life a "democracy"?
You: see I was asked to come and speak at it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Cocoanut Koala: because they hold the cards, prok
You: imagine!
You: I was originally asked to be on the panel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's true.
You: I talked to SNOOPY for two hours
You: he asked me to speak on the subject of Aimee's parties matrix
You: and I said HELL NO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So they invited Gwyn instead.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
You: he wanted to fit me in like a Christmas tree decoration on his tree that was already up
Cocoanut Koala: and we have a plan going
You: he wanted me to identify the other people
Cocoanut Koala: you keep saying legitimacy BUT
Cocoanut Koala: you also can't pretend they don't exist
Cocoanut Koala: and might not possibly do harm therefore.
You: and I said no we have to have a larger topic
Cocoanut Koala: i agree with your call on that, prok
You: which is "groups in SL and how they lobby and press their interests"
Rocks Diamond: /timer 60
You: then I came back to him the next day
You: so I said NO I won't speak
Cocoanut Koala: reasonable
You: and said I will speak if you can ditch that Aimee topic
You: and he wouldn't
Cocoanut Koala: course not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh!
You: but to avoid controversy
You: he invited Gwyn
You: and changed thetopic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is something you didn't tell us about....
You: so he could then say it wasn't that he didn't disinvite me
You: it's just that he "changed the topic to be more positive"
You: "to keep the momentum going"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, completely, he replaced the interesting social aspects with techie wikki stuff.
You: and made it "Sl and the Web Today"
Cocoanut Koala: buncha crap
You: well it's derailed
You: and not a single topic all day long tomorrow
Cocoanut Koala: really?
Cocoanut Koala: gwyn
You: deals with THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE AND WORK HERE AND ALREADY DO THE FUCKING DEMOCRACY WITHOUT THEM
You: see I can't have them step on that
Cocoanut Koala: what is it about what i said about we are a democracy that you were commenting on?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, sadly, i don't think that SL is a democracy. It has the *potential* of becoming one.
You: I have to relate my RL experience here.
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: People are so "afraid" of having a "legal system"
You: When the Soviet Union first fell, there were thousands of $500/day consultants
Cocoanut Koala: well what i meant, democracy can't be stifled, and is already here, in the hearts of reasoning people, which is most everybody.
You: they came on the scene with no language, no credentials nothing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or basic things like "Bills of rights"
Cocoanut Koala: we just do it in different form, like these city halls.
You: and all of us who worked it 20 years before that for $20/day or whatever were not as glamorous
You: so those $500/day people would call us up
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, in the heart — I agree, it's in the hart of *many*
You: where we still earned $20/day
You: and they would then get paid $500/day to crib our comments without our knowledge
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But sadly, not always in the heart of the few that have these "pressure groups".
You: they would parachute in and not even be able to talk to the locals
Cocoanut Koala: i agree, it is maddening prok, but you gotta see past that
You: and would write the Kyrgyz Constitution with no Kyrgyz present, etc
You: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: you ascribe too much good will to these people
Cocoanut Koala: no i dont
You: Justice Soothsayer may be sincere
You: but the rest like Hiro are not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I've heard that rumour elsewhere, Prok, but I never gave it any credit until you told that story :-(
Cocoanut Koala: i realize that
You: and Beth Noveck's theories are scary
You: go read them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's frightening.
Cocoanut Koala: i agree
Cocoanut Koala: but, i am saying, we are STRONGER than they are
You: what rumour?
Cocoanut Koala: all we have to do
You: what do you mean?
You: you lost me
Cocoanut Koala: is put into place a, b, and c, like yousaid
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Creating a constitution without the Kyrgyz present...
Ravenglass Rentals in Grace $325: Store rented for 30 days...
Cocoanut Koala: thats why it wont work!
Cocoanut Koala: thats why we win!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I read that somewhere, on an obscure reference
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
Cocoanut Koala: thats why thismeeting!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it won't
Cocoanut Koala: we are getting good at these things
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like your optimism, hehe
Cocoanut Koala: I already preempted the "cutting stipends" thingie with a poll
Gwyneth Llewelyn: At the very least
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
Cocoanut Koala: well, i have my down moments too, like prok, he can tell you
Cocoanut Koala: the roles have been reversed
Cocoanut Koala: usually its after i have taken a beating on the forums, lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, at the very least, the ones still thinking about "utopia" will think twice when LL starts to announce all the changes
Cocoanut Koala: but im gettng better at that!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I expect that perhaps a few thousands will leave
You: well the Kyrgyz thing I cite as a kind of generic example
Gwyneth Llewelyn: unable to deal with the concept that There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Cocoanut Koala: which changes?
Cocoanut Koala: oh that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good riddance to them!
Cocoanut Koala: of course
You: I had my part in the Russian Constitution -- many hands were put on that
You: many many many
Cocoanut Koala: I myself believe there MUST be a free lunch
Cocoanut Koala: in a virtual place, in a game
Gwyneth Llewelyn: really, prok? That you didn't told me yet :)
You: but in the end they just deleted what they didn't like and all that expensive foreign help was the first to go
You: ewll I can tell you the story some day
Gwyneth Llewelyn: right
You: but it's more about how they don't keep that kind of foreign liberal stuff in the end anyway
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Cocoanut... so there is a free lunch? ;)
You: it has to be indigenous and come from their own specialists and their own process
Cocoanut Koala: there needs to be, yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
You: you can't just graft the First Amendment into another country
You: well we worked on a part that had to do with rules for declaring a state of emergency
You: which they did keep
You: but then they used that to wage war in October 2003
Gwyneth Llewelyn: !
You: so beware of foreign things that look good but in another context they are misused
You: context is all
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: that's why plunking down the US Supreme Court in an international game space horrifies me
You: it just makes me cringe
Cocoanut Koala: well i'll be damned if i let those D.I. people define my world for me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh
You: especialy withe fight we just had to keep Gomez from being apointed etc
You: well Coco
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless the presentation tomorrow is going to be *very different*
You: you are conferring legitimacy on them
Cocoanut Koala: that is my style
You: well Gwyn read their hype
You: they are having a country fair
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Justice was saying is that at this stage, D.I. is just... "vapurware"
You: a country fair!
You: what could be more sweet and American!
Cocoanut Koala: i confer legitimacy on 99.5% of people
You: a country fair!
Cocoanut Koala: well at least that seems harmless!
You: with "room for trade associations, civic groups, experts"
You: I find the "trade association" thing touching
You: like the Ladies Undergarments Amalgamated Union will come to call
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are none that really have a saying in SL...
You: "We don't like the group tools"
Cocoanut Koala: well i wish bob bunderfield's builders association (see my title) would do something useful
You: and then we will look at this smorgasbord and say ooh, that's shiny
You: Gwyn
You: have you ever noticed?
You: on the forums
You: the group forums
You: none of the groups are active
You: except Nberg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
Cocoanut Koala: i've noticed that too
You: because lefty socialists are always zealous
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite so.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol
You: but like Lesbians United or whatever is defunct
Gwyneth Llewelyn: One day, Prokofy, you'll use N'burg as an example
You: oh but it's a loathsome one
You: see that's how Bolsheviks win
Gwyneth Llewelyn: on how even in SL the Lefty Utopians tried to build something
You: by being active when others aren't
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and utterly failed ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ulrika hardly logs in
You: well but Satchmo says
You: let me get it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Kendra is stepping down
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no more lefties
You: what?????
Cocoanut Koala: she is?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well from her current authoritarian role, yes
Cocoanut Koala: why?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She'll be a "normal builder"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why? Cocoanut, it should be obvious.
You: Neualtenburg has the metaverse's only elected representitive government.
You: of course spelling included
Cocoanut Koala: well it isnt to me, so why?
You: why is Kendra stepping down? she had enough lol?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: When lefties fail to understand that the rest of the people are not so eager to go ahead with their theories...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that people start to become, uh, just regular, moderate capitalists
You: wow did Teh Ppl prevail out in the Socialist Bavarian Horror???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the lefties abandon the ship
You: wow
Cocoanut Koala: really
Gwyneth Llewelyn: because they feel it's sinking
You: well that's how it should work in RL
Cocoanut Koala: how interesting
You: that's good news!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in fact it's making a profit
Cocoanut Koala: maybe it will become something better
You: so who are TehPpl now?
Cocoanut Koala: than it was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since Ulrika stepped down ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
You: who is the advance guard of Teh Ppl?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, the people are just regular guys, Prokofy
Cocoanut Koala: well i need to go get a bit of work done, i[m on a deadline
Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is not really an "advanced guard"
You: "We, Teh Ppl, In order to form a more perfect Better World" etc
Cocoanut Koala: i've been playing hookey just to be here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nah
You: well I will watch with interest
Cocoanut Koala: i will see y'all later!
You: poor Kendra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's more like "we have to stop this nonsense of not having enough shops" :)
You: thanks for coming Coco
Cocoanut Koala: if . . . i can tear myself away
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nah, Kendra enjoys building as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so she'll stay for a long while
Cocoanut Koala: ulrika doesn't play much anymore?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Cocoanut Koala: hmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the last 6 months
Gwyneth Llewelyn: she was twice online
Cocoanut Koala: that may explain why she is getting reckless on the forums
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for a total of one hour
Cocoanut Koala: there is the new baby
Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes
You: Ulrika is a bit behind the curve I noticed yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But she has been a mother for half a year now ;)
Cocoanut Koala: well still
Cocoanut Koala: a baby can kind of squash your prior enthusiams, for a long time
Cocoanut Koala: like say A WHOLE FREAKIN LIFETIME
Cocoanut Koala: dang kids
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well of course it can, Cocoanut :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I expect that when she returns
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She'll see that her nice dream has gone completely bypassed
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Cocoanut Koala: well she has probably been in touch with kendra and whatnot and already knows its happening
You: hmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or perhaps N'burg doesn't grow fast enough and it also fails, It's possible
You: but Gwyn!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure, she reads the forums
You: "Neualtenburg has the metaverse's only elected representitive government."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: she knows what people think
Cocoanut Koala: i can't say i cry over peopl drifting away who have wished for my virtual death
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yeah, right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's again a pretty hyperbole.
You: well Kendra wants to eliminate me from the game
Cocoanut Koala: thats a pure d FACT.
You: she's always writing that LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, prokofy, that's true.
You: why?
Cocoanut Koala: oh that one
Cocoanut Koala: representative government
You: can't she just ignore me?
Cocoanut Koala: thought you meant people wishing my virtual death, lol
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i'm off!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't know, but I can only guess that she doesn't like the way you write :)
You: Rocks do not event grief or you will be gone hon
Cocoanut Koala: *i'm very disciplined you know*
You: stop bombing my club
Rocks Diamond: im not griefing
Cocoanut Koala: see you later!
You: well why does she read the blog then?
Rocks Diamond: the onyl person i am griefing, if anyone, is myself
You: is it like a traffic accident? can't help rubbernecking?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh I can only speculate, Prok
You: too true Rocks too true
You: but you are bombing up my view with stuff
You: so light somewhere already
Rocks Diamond: sorry i am trying to cage myself
Rocks Diamond: dont be a prude now
Rocks Diamond: so true.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I really do wonder why so many people post hateful comments on your blog. I mean, why bother??
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should be going now
You: I guess because they can?
You: and I get under their skin?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This was a most productive meeting, I think
You: well we have heard from Justice Soothsayer
You: my, what a name!
You: gosh
You: it's like Dear Leader, my alt, who is a member of DI now : )
You: modest, so modest!
You: ok well Dear will see you there tomorrow afternoon perhaps
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well prokofy — I can't really understand that "masochist" behaviour, but perhaps yes, they like to annoy you, and get annoyed in return. Who knows what's their kick?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
You: after my chores lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Dear LEader", wow
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
SNOOPYbrown Zamboni is offline
You: my mashocist or theirs?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Theirs, prokofy
You: I like to save Dear for Democracy occasions
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're just answering
Vivianne Draper is online
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol :)
You: ok well back to work
You: thanks for coming
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok... bye for now, I must really go
You: and agreeing to be on the Delivery Committee or whatever
You: go to it
You: see you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: my pleasure, since I would be annoying the Lindens with emails anyway!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye for now....
You: bye