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Prokofy Neva

Sorry to turn this important public issue into a spotlight on a personal altercation, but people's behaviour and good faith matters immensely on an issue like this.

Just to pre-empt any self-justifying comments that Gwyn will be making, as she's deluging me with them now:

1. My meeting on Friday was OPEN TO THE PUBLIC AND ON THE CALENDAR AND SENT TO A DOZEN GROUPS AND EVERY ONLINE CALLING CARD. Indeed, it was my regular Friday-night meeting. Any effort to portray this meeting as "secret", if only attended by a dozen people off and on means nothing.
It's just silly, and Gwyn knows that.

2. The zoning issues were also discussed at length informally everywhere else any body who cared was getting together.

3. Convening an off-schedule Thinkers meeting, or "informational only Neualtenberg meeting to which Traxx popped in" is NOT an excuse. It was on the calendar! Holding a meeting 2 days later after people proposed a plan of action to make the process as broad as possible in the community (a town hall with Lindens!), and then claiming well, this is just one of many small group meetings we'll be needing to have, is utterly specious and a lie. It's hijacking a process and trying to jockey for position.

4. The meeting provided a high-profile platform for Traxx Hathor to claim that any group tools that allowed for founders to expel officers was somehow a "dictatorship" and not simply a normal business organization and normal corporation to protect investment -- and it was held at the socialist enclave of Neualtenberg with an agenda.

5. This meeting was posted on the forums, where it got far more attention and readership than the Friday meeting, merely because I didn't wish to publish a transcript without getting everyone's consent (the usual practice at that meeting on Fridays -- and some had flown off).

6. The Thinkers/Neualtenburg "informational" meeting and the postings of the transcript give huge amount of power and energy to a false notion that founders' rights to protect investment are forms of dictatorship to be banished from SL.

7. Any effort to portray my raising concerns about this as "paranoia," or "merely pursuing some personal agenda" or "merely stirring up old animosities" are fake -- it can be seen through here, that Gwyn called a meeting to which she could have invited any of us, especially me, and didn't. It was on the calendar. If it was on the calendar Sunday afternoon, that means any of us could have been given a heads up, especially as we were online!!!!

Iron Perth

Hey Prokofy, I really missed you at the discussion we had.

I will try to make sure you get an invite next time I show up at something, you are by far one of my favorite writers and I regularly consult your blog.

I do have to say that I think I had drank a bit too much coffee before going to that meeting, I said a few things I regret and was overly harsh with respect to what probably sounded like criticism of Linden Lab.

I mentioned this partially in the forums, but I think it bears repeating - Linden Lab should not feel guilty about having no plan. Though, perhaps, maybe a tad guilty for not advertising more clearly that they have no plan.

Second Life is a challenging project of the extreme but fascinating sort. There is and never will be a roadmap we can simply follow to paradise.

As soon as we can appreciate that moment of zen, the sooner I think the richness that is SecondLife will open up to us all.

BTW, as for the individuals are dangerous, to clarify: I meant the idea that handing dictatorial powers to an individual is a very risky thing.

People can be hit by a bus or simply go through a depressive cycle (we all do) and act in a rather irresponsible manner, unless there is a significant financial or similarly painful penalty.

Prokofy Neva

Iron, I don't know what you are talking about in terms of "Zen" or being "critical" of SL. It makes no sense.

You couldn't have missed me at a meeting Gwyn and you and others did not inform me about, though you know of my interest. She especially has no conscience, to sit in a meeting on Friday night, be entrusted with a group process to have it be as broad as possible -- then close it down again with Traxx and Neualtenberg and all the rest.

Individuals who have rights, who *protect their investment*, who happened to group their land to get project or building help or to get tenants or to get business partners do not have dictatorial powers.

What they have are rights and responsibilities, above all not to get screwed themselves by others with any kind of evil motivation to separate them and their money.

People group land not merely to get a 10 percent bonus, which the Lindens are likely to remove anyway now. It's a good management tool with the group IMs, the land list, the set to home, etc. as I've explained. Really given the many evil hardships spawned by their weakness on the mainland, like telehubs, Lazarus, etc., they need to keep the 10 percent bonus in place.

Just because I group my land and accept tier donations in rentals areas doesn't mean I'm a dictator, an individual with dictatorial powers, or someone to be "curbed" by a covenant I am *forced into* by social engineers and socialists.

A covenant that merely restores the officer recall by anonymous member griefers with agendas under the new name of "group covenant".

This kind of deepening of the socialism and social engineering in SL is death, no one with any common sense any any modicum of entrepreneurial spirit and business acumen will play this utopian commune game.

Prokofy Neva

"People can be hit by a bus or simply go through a depressive cycle (we all do) and act in a rather irresponsible manner, unless there is a significant financial or similarly painful penalty"

Iron, are you out of your mind? Do you group land? Do you know a single thing about life on the mainland? You have an island with an educational project called Learnland. But that has no bearing on this discussion -- it's an island! It's zoned by you. (If I'm mistaken, and it is not on an island, it's a sim you own).

If I "become depressed" or something and act "irrationally" and suddenly delete my tenants' houses, I lose their business. That's punishment enough! I don't need a covenant that forces me to incur financial loss as some seperate mechanical function. My God, is that what you are suggesting? What absurdity!

Your notions of the group tools are based on the fake hypothetical equalized commune type group that all shares equally -- this is a big fiction.

Cocoanut Koala

Well, I was at this meeting with Prok and Gwyneth on Friday night in which it was decided to:

a) Write a letter to Philip or Robin (not sure) asking for a City Hall meeting on the subject of Group Tools for Zoning.

b) Ask for that meeting to be open to all, and (at Justice's suggestion) that it include a panel of landowners such as Nexus, Anshe, Prok, etc. who have experience with zoning who would speak, followed by open discussion. The panel would also include a Linden.

c) Post all of this on the forums, inviting others interested, before doing any of it.

d) Speakers on the panel would briefly give their ideas of what these group tools for zoning should include, and what is needed most. The Linden would also speak, and then all of it would be thrown open to discussion, as per Justice's suggestion.

Now, I may have missed it, but I haven't noticed any such notice being put on the forums whatsoever, although Gywneth agreed to this, and was apparently going to draft same.

Instead, I notice there is this OTHER meeting that took place afterwards, to which I was not invited, and the minutes of that and all about that is now what is on the forums instead.

My conclusion: I just wasted my time and got dicked around by Gwyneth, who had no intention of following through with our decisions, but instead hauled the whole thing over to this other place and didn't invite me.

If you know me, you know I hate more than anything having my time wasted. I have a build job with a deadline, and I could have been working on that instead of sitting around for hours making plans that Gwyneth agreed to and participated in but apparently had no intention of actually doing.

Gwyneth, you can feel free to correct me on any of this. But - consider me pissed.


Kyrah Abattoir

can you summarise in 10 lines prok, i am not feeling like reading all this

Jake Reitveld

Well I stop taking anyone seriously when they say the individual in dangerous. Protecting the individual citizen is what democracy is all about.

Once we turn inot the real of talking about group-democracy and dangerous individuals we are losing sight of the core truth. Fredom is about individual self determination. For me to join a group and i am no longer free.

Somewhere the Athenian ancestors of democracy are rolling in their graves

Cocoanut Koala

I agree with Jake.


Prokofy Neva

I believe people raising the specter of the "individual is dangerous" are indeed the most dangerous individuals we have in our world.

Some of them have done it in good faith, trying to explain the problem of how Plastic Duck or Lazarus Divine can utterly ruin the world for other people. For many people, it's Prokofy Neva who will not shut up, and will not yield to forums group-think and change his mind.

Many, many people would like to make all three of these types of problematic people go away with mutes, v-chips, clear-textures, bans, invisibility prims, and a hundred other technical solutions.

We see the capacity of people ignored in this fashion to bite back hard.

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