You Can't Enter This Region Because the Server is Full

You can't enter this region because
the server is full.
Veronna Elytis: take a seat and listen razi
The Soapbox: Anshe Trenchmouth is on the soapbox now!
HUDDLES Deluxe Button Bar: HUDDLES Deluxe Button Bar, version 0.8.1.
Cocoanut Koala: hey magnum, i didn't know you were a vampire!
The Soapbox: Vague Speculaas is on the soapbox now!
Tateru Nino: I figure we've got about five minutes or so to act like children before things settle enough to kick off.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Robin Linden: if you'd like to speak please click on the soapbox to get a number
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Robin Linden: we'll call people as their turn comes up[
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Vague Speculaas: why is the soapbox speaking?
Robin Linden: Vague, can you please wait your turn?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Veronna Elytis: have you clicked jan
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Vague Speculaas: what am i doing?
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Renee Ingmann: This is crazy mixed up
Vague Speculaas: did i do something wrong?
Jeska Linden: Thanks for coming out everyone - we're waiting the last few people from the last location to appear.
Jan Bjornson: No. Not now. Should I?
Jesse Linden: more are incoming...
Veronna Elytis nods
Jeska Linden: Once everyone is here, we'll use the soapbox to line up the speaker queue
Veronna Elytis: you know what info we need
Tateru Nino: Did anyone leave a note telling them where we would be?
Ares Desmoulins: hey tal
Ares Desmoulins: journey to get here huh?
Midtown Bienenstich: It's official Lindens, this is now a City Hall meeting, no longer TOwn :/
Raavi Mann: Let me do the talking, OK?
Jan Bjornson: I know, what feature we want.
Veronna Elytis: o.k raavi go ahead
Jeska Linden: We don't have a topic for this week, so come on up and let us know what's on your mind.
Cocoanut Koala: oh alaisai!
The Soapbox: It is Cocoanut Koala's turn to speak, please take the floor
Jeska Linden: First up is Cocoanut Koala!
Cocoanut Koala: you just made me remember i haven't taken that pic yet!
Cocoanut Koala: why is the soapbox asking for me
The Soapbox: You are in the queue to speak. There are 7 people ahead of you after the current speaker has finished.
Cocoanut Koala: i mean, we haven't started anything yet
Midtown Bienenstich: SoapBox <3 Cocoanut
Veronna Elytis: i have to ask them about a different matter
Dougal Jacobs: its an open floor
You: no Jeska just said step up
The Soapbox: Cocoanut Koala is on the soapbox now!
Jeska Linden: Sorry, we don't have a topic this week, so it's up to ya'll to bring up what's been on your minds :)
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Cocoanut Koala: but
Cocoanut Koala: oh!
Cocoanut Koala: no wonder I don't know what the topic is.
Cocoanut Koala: In that case, I yield to the next speaker.
Renee Ingmann: LMAO Coco
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Jeska Linden: Ok, next up
Cocoanut Koala: yes ma'am
The Soapbox: It is Anshe Trenchmouth's turn to speak, please take the floor
Jeska Linden: Anshe Trenchmouth's turn
The Soapbox: Anshe Trenchmouth is on the soapbox now!
Anshe Trenchmouth: hi
Flying Fox Deer Buck Plush: Meep?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Flying Fox Deer Buck Plush: *sharpens his antlers*
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Anshe Trenchmouth: i like big butts and i can not lie
Anshe Trenchmouth: you other brothers cant deny
Personal Chat Recorder 1.1-XPM: A recording session has now been started. If you can hear this, I can hear you!!!
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Anshe Trenchmouth: that when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist
Pyrii Akula: ??
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Aliasi Stonebender chuckles.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Cocoanut Koala: i shouldn't have yielded
katykiwi Moonflower: what a waste
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Renee Ingmann: ROTFL
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: Shh... !
katykiwi Moonflower: sanctioned griefing
Vague Speculaas: well that wasnt a very good speech at all
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Jeska Linden: Ok, that's not really appropriate
Bedpan Unknown: but it is a good song
Togra Pierterson: I need some examples before I go :o
Renee Ingmann shouts: Mentors lack of professionalism
Midtown Bienenstich: Can I go?
Akurei Sieyes: Shazbot!
Buck Spinnaker: where's the eject handle?
Anshe Trenchmouth: and a round thing in your face
The Soapbox: It is Magnum Serpentine's turn to speak, please take the floor
Jet Hamsun: ok
Multi Gadget v1.33.2 by Timeless Prototype
Anshe Trenchmouth: ok I'm done
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme shouts: bad planning in blumfield
Prokofy Neva takes no responsibility for content of tenants
Veronna Elytis: Hey Jet
Renee Ingmann: I have a quick question are our questions directed at the Lindens in particular or just generally speaking Robi??
Magnum Serpentine: Ok
Magnum Serpentine: I do have a real topic
Jet Hamsun: hey
Magnum Serpentine: DI
Jet Hamsun: /color clear
Jeska Linden: Go ahead Magnum, click on the box
Magnum Serpentine: First of all, There are a lot of SIM owners who are extremely hacked off at you right now
Renee Ingmann: Alrighty thanks
Magnum Serpentine: And from walking around the world I can tell you the view to get rid of it is in the extreme minority
Terra WARP 2.1 whispers: Heads-up display is OFF.
Buck Spinnaker: i hope you all realize that this inappropriate behavior is what keeps open meetings from happening
Magnum Serpentine: A lot of Sim Owners asked you about long term plans on DI and you assured them it would be around a while so they planned their business on this
Magnum Serpentine: Now you all went back on your word and they are left in the lurch
Magnum Serpentine: My advice
Magnum Serpentine: My Advice
Pugcharlie Reymont: maare you here?
Vague Speculaas: you're an angry fellow
Magnum Serpentine: is to completely ignore the general Forums, and listen to what the sim owners want
cinda Hoodoo: Developers Incentive
Magnum Serpentine: Because it is only a small vocal minority who want you all to get rid of the DI
Magnum Serpentine: I know I walked around and talked to people
Blue Linden: you know we don't monitor external blogs ;)
Magnum Serpentine: And now a ton of Sim owners are in the lurch
Magnum Serpentine: Thank you for letting me speak
Selkit Diller shouts: Why exactly is the developer's incentive being removed without a backup plan in place to assist the true developers and true communities?
Magnum Serpentine: Remember
Magnum Serpentine: only a Small Vocal Minority want it gone
Selkit Diller shouts: And not simply the money-ball/camping-chair/casino types?
Pugcharlie Reymont: ty
You: a small minority called "Linden's venture capitalists and their accountants" ? lol
Dougal Jacobs: respond please
Renee Ingmann: Respond Robin
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: yes
Selkit Diller: Uh...
Selkit Diller: So far, the developer's incentive rewarded a community of approximately 30,000 individuals with 4 sims.
cinda Hoodoo: so what if anything is in place to keep business ventures in SL in a forward momentum ?
The Soapbox: It is Jade Lily's turn to speak, please take the floor
cinda Hoodoo shouts: wait wait wiat
Selkit Diller: Phased out without a replacement in sight.
cinda Hoodoo shouts: thats not a good enuff answer
Jade Lily: the region is full, robin
Xandi Mars: i dont think money chairs do anything for the game except line pockets of a few
Jeska Linden: Jade, it's your turn
Jade Lily: i can't approach the box
Jeska Linden: Try now ?
Jade Lily: i'll just ask a question. it's not really an issue, but it is community related
cinda Hoodoo shouts: so what would make anyone want to buy a sim or keep one now ?
Jade Lily: What role will Second Life play in the upcoming social revolution that Beth Noveck writes about in her "A Democracy of Groups" paper?
Lexa Pierterson: for fun?
Selkit Diller shouts: Cinda; True community and the willingness to support one. Altruistically, of course.
You: A non-supportive one we hope! That is one scary theory!
Jeska Linden: There you go Jade.
The Soapbox: Jade Lily is on the soapbox now!
Jade Lily: oof
Jade Lily: sure. sorry, robin :)
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jade Lily: beth says that what was initially an information revolution is becoming a social revolution
Jade Lily: technology is empowering groups
Jade Lily: we're seeing social software popping up everywhere, etc
Jesse Linden: right
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: Technology is also said to be breaking down communication in a column I read by a creative director at SEGA, and it's true to some point
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jade Lily: what role do you foresee second life playing in the empowerment of groups?
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Jesse Linden: well obviously groups are going to be a critical component of Second Life moving forward
Jesse Linden: we'll try to find ways to leverage collective activity and provide tools to make social interaction easier
Selkit Diller: Districto; The world I work with initially sprouted from an online community with 30,000 hosted artists/individuals, and likely hundreds of thousands of users. Community is a vast part of it.
Jesse Linden: its a huge issue though
Jesse Linden: as Beth's paper points out
aewyn Sondergaard: the sit and veg chairs i think work against social activity
Jade Lily: it was a vague question, and not totally relevant to this meeting anyway. we can chat about it later :)
Selkit Diller: aewyn, they are a horrid abuse of the (soon defunct) developer's incentive anyways.
Pyrii Akula: Events like these show how difficult it can be to gather a community in one spot too. Look at the difficulty we have attending this event.
Jesse Linden: im sure Second Life will have a role to play enabling social collaboration
Jesse Linden: to affect change
cinda Hoodoo: "effect"
Gerami Fizz: ...
You: change for *whom*?
The Soapbox: It is Pyrii Akula's turn to speak, please take the floor
Jade Lily: but it wasn't an attack on linden lab. isn't that what the community roundtable is about? ;)
Jade Lily: thanks, jesse!
Jesse Linden: TBD Prokofy
The Soapbox: Pyrii Akula is on the soapbox now!
Schwartz Guillaume: change for everybody but Prokofy
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2006/01/whats_wrong_wit.html
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Pyrii Akula is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Pyrii Akula: Hiyas, Do I only get the 1 question cuz I have 2 or 3 little questions
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Vague Speculaas: Hey prokofy can you stop spamming us with that link please?
Jeska Linden: Go ahead Pyril
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: All community based (I hope) And I hate choosing
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: When Jade stops spamming us with "Democracy Island"? Sure
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Pyrii Akula is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Blue Linden: RESPECT THE BOX PLEASE :)
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Cherry Mason is online
Pyrii Akula: 1 is a quicky, it's a moot poitn but I think the community would like to hear something positive about the lazureus divine issue, I see new sims with fresh land for buying, and well, there he is again.
Cocoanut Koala: hear hear!
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: I've heard that it's a matter of "waiting it out" but I think something positive might be nice for those of us affected
Dale Harmison: hi all
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Dale Harmison: what is this place?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: I reluctantly agree that I'd like to hear something positive too
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Schwartz Guillaume: Townhall meeting, now sit
Sherrade Stirling: for anyone (living under a rock lol) that don't know he's the "impeach bush" guy
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: not a big fan of censorship but it's getting out of control :(
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Dale Harmison: hi all
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: *nods* Feel free to rephrase, as long as the point is clear
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Vague Speculaas: someone should really fix the box
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Seven Wonders Brownlee Apartments $75: Store rented for 7 days at Brownlee Apartments...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Selkit Diller: llSubStringIndex is your friend with listens.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Schwartz Guillaume: if there isn't going to be a zoning board, people shouldn't get to complain when something they don't like goes up
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: Robin: how about this.. how about no land set for sale with a universally ugly build on it
Gerami Fizz: My opinion is that if the community at large finds it offensive, something should be done.
Shaun Altman: OR! BETTER! no land for sale w/ anything on it other than LL trees
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Sherrade Stirling: your point is understood, but might there be any tools in the works that could make everyone happy? are things like that being considered or worked on ?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Midtown Bienenstich: Controlling Land Prices?.. how communist :/
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jade Lily thinks she shouldn't be able to hear muted objects
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Cocoanut Koala: There are easy solutions to this matter, that don't involve any slippery slope or trampling of resident rights to free speech and expression.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Aliasi Stonebender: but, shaun, what if you're actually selling a build? that doesn't work so well.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: Well does what he's doing constitute as greifing, because people have complained agressively about the signs. But I'll leave that because I thinkt here's no answer in sight. My only other question is dwell. I work for the Shelter which helps new people b
Shaun Altman: Ailasi: hmm :\
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: Yeah, there is no easy answer to this one
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Ares Desmoulins: he's free to sell his land for as little or as much as he would like, and likewise he is free to put whatever he likes on his land
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Shaun Altman: It's a sticky issue no matter how u look at it
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Felix Sholokhov: not to take an opposite stance, but it is freedom of speach and freedom of setting his own price for the land, I prevent him from entering and buying in my sims by just banning him from the sim when I first take control over it
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Sherrade Stirling: I'd love tools where i could ignore aperson's objects or something along those lines
The Soapbox: Shhh...
cinda Hoodoo: like camping chairs ???????
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: by running events, but the dwell issue is becoming a hot topic between me and the owners as it might mean cutting back on our events
Midtown Bienenstich: guys, let's do the V-chip.. there's a proposition to create an option to block objects/textures from a specific user. LETS ENABLE IT!
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Aliasi Stonebender: (well, "find Lazarus Divine in RL and punch him in the face" is promising, but I'll be good.)
The Soapbox: Shhh...
RedRose Groshomme: There sould be a standard as to what can be set out.. this is a world in whice we come to relax and meet new ppl he only brings in drama from the outside that doesnt relate to anyone here..
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jeska Linden: Shh, please just the person who has the floor
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Selkit Diller: Remind me to code you Lins a soapbox that ignores the Linden last-name...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Sherrade Stirling: i thought the question was turned out to the community, sorry
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Pyrii Akula: What will happen to well... good users of dwell that are trying to reward the community or help it?
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Pyrii Akula: Will we have an alternative way of being rewarded for helping the community?
Pyrii Akula: Because we want to run it for old and new people alike
cinda Hoodoo: ya like taht will fly
Cocoanut Koala: because it doesn't work
Schwartz Guillaume: for new people specifically, cash is an issue
Pyrii Akula: That's what the shelter is for =P
Selkit Diller: A cover fee of L$20 takes up 40% of a newbie's stipend.
Selkit Diller: Not cool.
cinda Hoodoo: nope
Renee Ingmann: people wont pay or dont want to pay
RedRose Groshomme: why charge people to attend something you are throwing.. you dont charge people to attened Real Life parties.. so why in here
Pyrii Akula: If dwell is gone we might have to stick to just sponsor money
Midtown Bienenstich: People would pay, if they can make money.
Buck Spinnaker: they won't pay unless everyone charges and there's the rub
Midtown Bienenstich: L$ wont cover tier
Midtown Bienenstich: L$ 1
Aliasi Stonebender: on the other hand, given it's a free basic account, five bucks gets you plenty of dough; the problem as I see it is nto financial, it's cultural.
Cocoanut Koala: in other games? yes - and i have seen it work once. only for the wealthy, like the auctioning lindons works here.
Selkit Diller: L$ does not cover tier, period, unless you're a *huge* dwellwhore.
Dougal Jacobs: I agree with Aliasi, the current idea is "I deserve to be rewarded for attending"
Pyrii Akula: The dwell had it's bad and it's good, unfortunatly I work for one of the good uses, and well, it means we have to rethink the way we run
Schwartz Guillaume: why is "welfare state" bad
aewyn Sondergaard: until you owners get more creative about "events" you won't get people to come to them in the numbers that you want anyway
Aliasi Stonebender: you get people used to bread and circuses, money for nothing and their chicks for free, and they get right grouchy not having that anymore.
Ares Desmoulins would also avoid charge sims
Renee Ingmann: hear hear Schwartz
Selkit Diller: Agreed, Magnum.
Jade Lily: maybe we should talk about how to teach new residents how to contribute something to the community, so that they can afford to attend events
Cocoanut Koala: people figure they already ARE paying, when they pay to the Lindens.
Pyrii Akula: I mean we can still run, but will we be able to get support via the new system, I don't even understand WAHT the new system is
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: go jade go
Cocoanut Koala: My answer to that: If you want residents, yes.
cinda Hoodoo: perhaps the Lindens would cut back our land fees so we could afford to be more "creativer" :)
Selkit Diller: Adam, I build and operate four sims. There is not one money chair, casino, or "Get paid to be around" activity, period. Untrue.
Jeska Linden: Or specific behaviors?
Gerami Fizz: What's stopping people from inventing more creative ways of making money at an event they host?
You: Jade, why should people have to sit in building classes and create in order to become full-fledged citizens?
Renee Ingmann: Exactly Jade
Renee Ingmann: They can be full fledged citizens
Schwartz Guillaume: Prokofy: what should they have to do instead?
Renee Ingmann: but all people like to feel like they are contributing
Schwartz Guillaume: sit in money chairs and buy off LindeX?
Selkit Diller: Adam; Again untrue. We run one of the largest non-casino areas and still manage without paid-to-attend cheaptricks.
Seifer Kennedy is offline
You: Buy Lindens on the Lindex?
Pyrii Akula: I'm lost int he sea of discussion
You: and when there are better group tools, get a job?
Pyrii Akula capsises by a large wave
Selkit Diller: Adam; Because we built our community altruistically for the people to use as they saw fit. We were true developers.
Matt Enfield: They are paying you monthly fees to be in this world, so they shouldn't have to pay more to simply go to an event.
Cocoanut Koala: those places wouldn't be popular if they weren't . . . in fact, popular.
Jade Lily: i'm tiered to zero right now. it's not getting in the way of my creativity. there are sandboxes
Renee Ingmann: Exactly Matt
Cocoanut Koala: exactly matt
Selkit Diller: Adam; That's the point. We are NOT a business.
Shaun Altman: Matt: then they shouldn't expect entertainment content from residents
RedRose Groshomme: we have a monopoly growing.. face it
Selkit Diller: We are NOT in it to make money, we are NOT in it for gain, we are in it for community.
Shaun Altman: they're paying the monthly fee (sometimes) for platform functions
Shaun Altman: NOT for resident content
Renee Ingmann: Wait wait, who is not a business
Matt Enfield: Why would I pay to be in a world that doesn't offer any kind of entertainment?
You: Selkit, how do you think LL will pay for their servers and staff? if they just keep giving it out for free?
Cocoanut Koala: well, tell them that, shaun
Selkit Diller: Prok; We brought in a record number of referrals for them.
Aliasi Stonebender: Why would you pay to use SL at all if you don't own land?
Shaun Altman: Matt: there is entertainment offered, it's offered by the residents
Pyrii Akula: Well I think I also need to know WHAT the new system is. As a maker of... stuff, I'm wonding if by creative incentives they mean making items.
Selkit Diller: In our first month, 9,000.
You: Selkit: that doesn't pay the bills, it's not enough, those are all basics.
Schwartz Guillaume: Selkit, yet all those referrals stay on your four sims and maybe a couple others
Selkit Diller: Schwartz; Hardly. We advertise other sims and cross-sponsor.
Cocoanut Koala: good luck with that, Robin
Midtown Bienenstich: I also agree with Gwen.
Selkit Diller: We encourage diversity, we encourage others to move out and see the world.
The Soapbox: It is Vague Speculaas's turn to speak, please take the floor
Midtown Bienenstich: OUr economy is limited.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: this is impossible to folo
Vague Speculaas: ok i wont sit on the box because it will be spamming
Selkit Diller: And conversely, we are *not* a fur-only "elite".
Blue Linden: hey teep :)
Teeple Linden: Hey!
Pyrii Akula: I have no idea what anyone was trying to get across in reply to my question, too much chatter, can't read it all
Renee Ingmann: speak
Renee Ingmann: let vague speek
Vague Speculaas: Alright I would like to discuss the adult theme within this game
Jeska Linden: Pyril - the chat log will be send to the mailing list.
Buck Spinnaker: that should shut down some email systems :)
Vague Speculaas: Second life is one of the greatest sandboxes in the world with a promise to give you tools to build script and follow any social engineering you feel like
Vague Speculaas: This unimaginable freedom brings out some interesting aspects
Vague Speculaas: And this is a question to linden lab on their position of the adult themes that crop up from this freedom
Vague Speculaas: and what their stand is
Vague Speculaas: Such things as the goreans, whose theme is enslavement of females and their manipulation
aewyn Sondergaard: thank you !!!
Vague Speculaas: The baby furs, that borders on pedophilia
Vague Speculaas: Now fetishes should not be prosecuted against, if you have a predseposition to people in fur suits, it's ok
Lexa Pierterson: careful..that is a bit judgemental. It's all consensual
Vague Speculaas: but when pedophilia gets involved, i don't think it shouldn't be allowed
Selkit Diller: Er, yeah, was about to point that out.
Selkit Diller: Lexa.
Vague Speculaas: On top of that, the rampant prostitution, that is illegal everywhere in the world
Pyrii Akula: I think witht he freedom the internet gives, you're gonna see a much more exxagerated proportion of diversities. I see far more BDSM etc stuff in SL, but also a huge uptake by furries.
Ares Desmoulins: not everywhere
Vague Speculaas: but is somehow seen as a legitimate business venture in sl
cinda Hoodoo: yes theres out and out whorehouses here and yer on us about camping chairs ???
Ares Desmoulins: actually in less places is it illegal than you think
Lexa Pierterson: This IS fantasyland
Jeska Linden: Content, role playing and other behavior is something that Linden Lab is not concerned with unless it crosses the line into 'broadly offensive' per our Comunity Standards.
Vague Speculaas: Ok how about united states
Selkit Diller: Vague; Prostitution is legal in Nevada.
Pyrii Akula: Normally they represent a tiny minority of internet activities, but I think it's certain communities have found refuge in SL so you're seeing a community growing in SL
Midtown Bienenstich: Exactly
Vague Speculaas: But is it ok?
Midtown Bienenstich: And SL cannot be compared to the United States.
Selkit Diller: Vague; Is enforcing your own morality on others okay?
Pyrii Akula: The problem is, SL has no closed doors
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is not a state of the US.
Pyrii Akula: SL has no privacy atm
Renee Ingmann: they are not the moral police, but I do agree about borderline pedophilia
Vague Speculaas: No I am asking what linden lab's position is
Aliasi Stonebender: SL is *in* a state of the US. California.
RedRose Groshomme: I agree with the pedofiela thing though.. was in a discussion event and it came up.. its kinda scary to think that people on her partake of it
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: sl is a bizness
Ares Desmoulins: vegas it's a-ok, i happen to connect in amsterdam once in a whle, should i be bound by the rules and regulations of another country in SL when i myself am not bound to it in RL?
Vague Speculaas: Also what does linden lab consider
Raavi Mann: Hey Vague - newsflash! This is NOT real world!
RedRose Groshomme: Yaakov
Ashmuel Gould: Precicely, I really don't see what the problem is.
Midtown Bienenstich: I meant that SL cannot be considered an extension of the US.
cinda Hoodoo: you can controll what happens in your own land or club, you have to keep your own standards high
Vague Speculaas: What does linden lab consider "broadly offensive" when linden lab's rules are so liquid and not written in stone anywhere
RedRose Groshomme: doesnt matter if ther are no children.. The simple fact that they par take in it is scary to me
aewyn Sondergaard: the enslavement and misstreatment of women by the goreans is specifically against the TOS if you read your TOS carefully
Jade Lily: ah, the gr8 db8
Jeska Linden: Vague - the community standards outline where the boaundaries are.
Schwartz Guillaume: why can't it? other websites are bound by the laws of the states and countries that their servers reside in
Lexa Pierterson: There is alot that happens here that people would not do in their real lives. That is part of the enjoyment of it.
Selkit Diller: Red; They tend to disturb me too, but our local policy in FN is "Live and let live".
Vague Speculaas: Also is it ok for people to pursue pedophilic activities? Even though they consent to it
Lexa Pierterson: Goreanss do not mistreat the women involved in it
Midtown Bienenstich: Schwartz, Linden Lab corp is bound by Cali Laww.
RedRose Groshomme: What if someone on here goes after a "child" on here and gets his/her kicks off it greatly.. then decides to take it out of SL.. to the real world..
Lexa Pierterson: goreans do not go around capturing woment and forcing them into that role.
Vague Speculaas: And is prostitution A-OK in linden lab's view?
Midtown Bienenstich: but to declare SL, as in our culture, as part of the United States exclusively, is very arrogant.
Jan Bjornson: In this world noone can be enslaved, if not want to. So, what is the point?
RedRose Groshomme: you cant tell me that will not affect things.. because it will
Selkit Diller: Hear-hear, Mid.
Schwartz Guillaume: RedRose: what if someone kills a stripper in GTA and gets his/her kicks and decides to do it in the real world
Raavi Mann: Precisely, Jan
Renee Ingmann: see I agree totally with the pedophilia bit, thats wrong, but if some woamn consents to prostitution or to be a slave, thats her business
Schwartz Guillaume: we've had this argument before regarding other games
Pyrii Akula: What'as with allt he United States talk, I get the feeling people consider this to be a US only game
Felix Sholokhov: if you don't like what's taking place somewhere, don't go, you're not being forced to attend
aewyn Sondergaard: goreans's tell the women that they are inferior to men >> that in and of itself is misstreatment
Renee Ingmann: Good point Schwartz, thanks for the different view
Selkit Diller: Pyrii; Blame Canada for me.
RedRose Groshomme: Things that happen here dont always stay in SL.. Good and Bad... and I think we need to think of that one
Pyrii Akula thinks "game" is not the right word
Vague Speculaas: Hate is broadly offensive in just about any common sense individual
Jesse Linden: these are all issues that have been dealt on the Internet at large
Aliasi Stonebender: Magnum, you keep saying that. I do not believe it means what you think it means.
Lexa Pierterson: No, they do not say inferior.....they say it is a male dominated society
Lexa Pierterson: women have different roles than men
cinda Hoodoo: oh pulease Robin
aewyn Sondergaard: they say inferior
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: and how ;many men are female here?
Vague Speculaas: They were dealt with, however linden labs doesn't have a creal stance on these isssues
Lexa Pierterson: do not attack what you do not understsand
Jan Bjornson: And you believe that, aewyn?
Renee Ingmann: HA Jeanne
Aliasi Stonebender: There's real servers in California, and real people with real badges who will really shut down things if a law is broken.
Midtown Bienenstich: Okay, I was arguing Vague's opinion that 'Prostitution should be illegal here, as in the US" -- that is basically saying we abide by US tradition.
Ares Desmoulins: there is no illegal activites going on in the game
Jade Lily: why should it be illegal?
Raavi Mann: I have one suggestion for you all - you don't like it? Leave or do not look
Ares Desmoulins: as it is all virtual, it makes it immune to US and international law
aewyn Sondergaard: i believe that it is a very very bad thing to propagate the demeaning treatment of women in SL when it is such a huge problem in rL
Pyrii Akula: I think SL has become a platform for people to try new things, but there is a high proportion of "adult" themes going on in SL. While this is nice, some people I think would prefer a nice divide between the 2, not the intermix we have.
cinda Hoodoo: so its all make believe ????
Schwartz Guillaume: Ares: sharing a movie on Bittorrent is all virtual
Schwartz Guillaume: but the RIAA doesn't agree with you
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: its a choice here
Vague Speculaas: Also, things like pedophilia are offensive, however you said that if its between two consensual people, their fantasies can go wild, are you saying that pedophilia is ok if they are between two consented individuals?
Ares Desmoulins: that's absolutely different
Renee Ingmann: well if this is prostitution then what about all the 900 numberss, wouldnt that be the same thing, so no I dont think this is prostituion in SL terms
Jeska Linden: Pyril - that is why we have two dfferent 'ratings' for SL - M and PG
Jade Lily: it would be the woman's choice. what's demeaning about it?
Ares Desmoulins: i could write a story right now bout ANYTHING, and it wuld be protected
Felix Sholokhov: two consentual adults, yes
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: right
Renee Ingmann: exactly Yaakov
Pyrii Akula: But M land is only a tiny proportion of SL and is expensive to buy land for.
Lexa Pierterson: There are some women that live a gorean lifestyle RL and would not live any other way
Lexa Pierterson: that is not abusive...it is called free choice
Dougal Jacobs: Agreed, can we close this argument? its getting into individual beliefs and away from "how it affets Secondlife"?
You: promoting slavery of women even if "consent" is involved is still not a boon to civilization and there are many troublesome aspects to it for democracies.
Midtown Bienenstich: exactly, if two concensual adults in SL, want to do something like that, then they should have the right too.
Dougal Jacobs: affects*
Jeska Linden: This allows for local communities to maintain the type of behavior and activity they wish within a specific estate/region.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: my choice
Jan Bjornson: I'm here for 4 months now an never encountered such enslavement. So, SL seems to be big enough to avoid it.
Veronna Elytis: Hello Admiral Veronna Elytis of the republic starfleet, i was just wondering what plans are set for the futur regarding prim limits for vehicals made in sl, the current limit is 30, will this be increased at any time to allow bigger and better builds ?
Midtown Bienenstich: Next Speaker!
You: We cannot be certain of how free it is in a coercive online environment with anonymous strangers.
Selkit Diller: Veronna, might want to get into the speaker queue.
Veronna Elytis: damn whoops
Ares Desmoulins: if a woman willingly lets herself be enslaved, how should it be illegal or banned?
Ares Desmoulins: or a man for that mattter
aewyn Sondergaard: it is wrong for SL to promote the gorean lifestyle and the demeaning of women by allowing them to maintain their activities here
You: Ares, it's our right to question how free her choice is too, just as she has a free choice.
RedRose Groshomme: I have a suggestion.. if people dont like what goes on in here then they can go to another land.. and people that want to take it far to psycotic measures *mesured by my brain* can go to sociolotron :)
Veronna Elytis: had that on a notecard and forgot i had it on ctrl +c
Vague Speculaas: So I assume this is what I'm getting: As long as the individuals consent, no matter how far off their fetish or fantasy is, it will be allowed under the SL law?
RedRose Groshomme: *game rather
Selkit Diller: This entire line of discussion is simply a matter of "Conservative opinion VS General community"...
Ares Desmoulins: aewyn, wrong by who's standards?
cinda Hoodoo: its consentual ensalvement..what ever blows yer skirtup
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: what about racism ? would sl outlaw hitler land?
Lexa Pierterson: pffftspfffts......it is no different than how men used to treat women years ago
Selkit Diller: Jeanne; They already do.
RedRose Groshomme: I would hope so Jean
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: ok
Dougal Jacobs: This argument will not end as it involves beliefs very close to peoples hearts. There is no definite right or wrong. I motion to close.
Ares Desmoulins: What's next? are you going to say gays are immoral and ban tehm to?!?
Jade Lily: if anyone wants to hear more about how law should be applied in virtual worlds, i recommend the videos located on the following page:
Jade Lily: http://nyls.edu/pages/3903.asp
Midtown Bienenstich: I second motion.
Renee Ingmann: second
You: What's great is that there are so many more people in the world now, and not just one opinion prevails on these issues.
Matt Enfield: Agreed Doug
Pyrii Akula: As long as it's legal and both are consenting (Easy to just TP away if not) then I think any practice is fine in SL as long as it's kept private
Selkit Diller: I second Dougal.
cinda Hoodoo: i second it
Schwartz Guillaume: Ares: slippery slope
Jan Bjornson: aewyn
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: good
Cocoanut Koala: fourthed
Matt Enfield: yes
Dougal Jacobs: Indeed
aewyn Sondergaard: racicsm is demeaning people of other races, the same rule needs to be applied to the rights of women
You: And if people would like to see an antidote to nysl.edu they can read my blog: )
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes
Vague Speculaas: What I feel is going on, that SL allows anything to go on, until someone complains. If no one complains then it's a free for all. On top of that people sometimes complain about things that are not broadly offensive, but are to their moral views, and ther
Vague Speculaas: therefore dealt with swiftly
The Soapbox: It is Veronna Elytis's turn to speak, please take the floor
Midtown Bienenstich: Vague, you were closed
Schwartz Guillaume: she's finishing
Schwartz Guillaume: give her a moment
Midtown Bienenstich: oh
Midtown Bienenstich: my bad.
Veronna Elytis: yer im here
Veronna Elytis waves
Selkit Diller: Hop on up on 'ye olde noisy soapbox.
cinda Hoodoo: a big hand for Vague she made some good points !
Selkit Diller: I'll respectfully decline, Cinda.
Vague Speculaas: I am not saying that I prosecute people with fetishes, or their sexual orientations, that is fully legal
Jan Bjornson: I'm a girl, too, but noone can enslave me here. If one tries, I leave that person or report abuse.
Veronna Elytis: sorry laggin a littl
Vague Speculaas: I have another question, aside from the adult theme
Renee Ingmann: Vague, step down Hun
Vague Speculaas: this has nothing to do with the adult theme anymore
You: Could we get to the rest of the queue?
Dougal Jacobs: Please, many other would like a turn.
Vague Speculaas: what does the linden labs do about copyright infringement
Renee Ingmann: Vague, they already called the next speaker
Midtown Bienenstich: send ther to Gorean!
Jade Lily: email the lindens later
Bedpan Unknown: Ooh but I'd love an answer to this one
Jade Lily: er, use the hotline
Jade Lily: :)
Vague Speculaas: This is a serious question. I see a lot of products in the sl market, that is based off of copyrighted things in real life.
You: start by reading what they already wrote about takedown notices and such?
Midtown Bienenstich: read the TOS!
Bedpan Unknown: When someone scans the back of a playing card, uploads it as a rug, and charges L$100, what happens.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "based off" is not a problem ;)
Vague Speculaas: These things being star wars themed products, stargate, and anything else based off of real life
Renee Ingmann: call the fbi Vague
Vague Speculaas: should it be allowed?
Jade Lily: semantics, gwyn
Jade Lily: :)
Vague Speculaas: is just my question
Selkit Diller: Vague; Fan derivative works are legal.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a difference between "trademarks" and "copyright" — not semantics.
Selkit Diller: Provided they are not remarketed.
Vague Speculaas: Fan work is legal, until they make profit from it
Tateru Nino: Copyright, Vague? Or Trademark? Different things.
derek Franklin: i think the star_foo folks understand thier products are enrichened by this exposure.. not that that applies to all the infringement here...
Veronna Elytis looks at his watch
Kaboom Pow: hmmm...this slave thing sounds interesting...how does one get involved? :)
Vague Speculaas: Star Wars™
Raavi Mann: Vague - depends on the country
Selkit Diller: As the L$ is not a marketable currency save in private trade (Gifts), the legality is pretty plain.
Jade Lily: i stand corrected, then :)
Aenea Christensen grins at Kaboom
Jeska Linden: Ok, next speaker please!
Vague Speculaas: i guess no answer then
Midtown Bienenstich: seconds, thirds,, fourths, Jeska
Renee Ingmann: they answered you Vague, they said to file a complaint
Dougal Jacobs: Indeed
Vague Speculaas: That is only about copyright infringement within the game
Veronna Elytis: cant enter...full server
Raavi Mann: She would need to file complaints about 25% of items in SL then, Renee
Dougal Jacobs: Same laws apply
derek Franklin: the owners of the copyright have to file.
Jeska Linden: There you go Veronna :)
Schwartz Guillaume: think of it as a virtual Chinatown where there's counterfeits of everything but it's all so shoddily-made that nobody cares
Veronna Elytis: sorry im laggina little
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: racsist?
derek Franklin: hehe, word, Schwartz.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol, RL Hong Kong
Bedpan Unknown: I hope Green Day doesnt find out I have full songs of theirs in my inventory.
Felix Sholokhov: there are many in here who will get hit hard if some RL coporations enter SL
Vague Speculaas: There are some very obvious things
Veronna Elytis: well i wont sit on the box, im laggin a bit
Argent Stonecutter: Video game characters.
Selkit Diller: *Please* don't sit on the evil spambox. Please.
Vague Speculaas: I asked the question because if any of the companies would like to pursue the trademark infringement legaly, it would be devastating to SL
Matt Enfield: If I created a RL Impeach Bush sign, identical to the one in game an trademarked it. Would you remove it?
Felix Sholokhov: SL won't gt touched, the individuals doing the infringing will
Raavi Mann: Yes, do that Matt!!!
You: brilliant, Matt!
Selkit Diller: Please do, Matt.
Renee Ingmann: LMAO
Veronna Elytis: i was just wondering what plans were set for the futur regarding vehicals, the current limit is 30 prims which isnt bad, but people want to build bigger and better things
Schwartz Guillaume: I don't think trademarks work like that
Renee Ingmann: Matt funny funny
Matt Enfield: Serious question by the way
Veronna Elytis: its probably a noob question but hey i want to learn here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As a reference — you can check up on trademarked names/logos on the US Patent & Trademark Office online:
Midtown Bienenstich: MATT FILE IT
Buck Spinnaker: since Lazarus is broadly offensive, he's in violation of tos
Ares Desmoulins: sure matt, if you want to enter a court battle about original ownership and whatnot feel free
Gwyneth Llewelyn: http://www.uspto.gov/
Selkit Diller: Veronna; Workaround trick in the meantime? Make an invisible "collision hull" vehicle, and build the visible vehicle geometry as an avatar attachment to the pelvis.
Aliasi Stonebender: havok 2 - guaranteed to be put in SL before you die.
Felix Sholokhov: he's already using the design, you wouldn't be able to persue it
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: dont knock noobs
Matt Enfield: Ah thats what I figured Felix
Jeska Linden: Go ahead Veronna
Raavi Mann: Aliasi - I'm not gonna live that long!
Schwartz Guillaume: Mono?
Ares Desmoulins: when is this once going to happen?
Togra Pierterson: mmmm.... mono...
Veronna Elytis: ah o.k thank you
Raavi Mann: Robin - months?
The Soapbox: It is Togra Pierterson's turn to speak, please take the floor
Schwartz Guillaume: haven't you guys been promising Havok 2 for like two years now
Ares Desmoulins: as in 90-100 months?
Ares Desmoulins: or 3-4?
Argent Stonecutter: Is MONO going to mean people will be able to upload bytecode themselves?
Aliasi Stonebender: eh, I'm going by the old Apogee release date - When It's Done(tm).
Veronna Elytis: well thank you and have a pleasent day on behalf of the republic starfleet
Togra Pierterson: um. hmm. I'm going to get as close to that thing as I can
Jade Lily: Togra Pierterson... Torley Torgeson... boy is that messing with me
derek Franklin calls lucasarts..
Togra Pierterson: ok, well close -ish
Jeska Linden: Who's next?
Togra Pierterson: I think it was me
Lexa Pierterson is online
Schwartz Guillaume: Togra is
Midtown Bienenstich: Togra sit
Midtown Bienenstich: on the SoapBox
Raavi Mann: You mean SpamBox?
Schwartz Guillaume: full sim, I think
Jade Lily: togra's trying to get there
Togra Pierterson: not if it's in that region :P
Selkit Diller: Evil spambox of death.
Midtown Bienenstich: Sim is fulL!
Midtown Bienenstich: !!
Jeska Linden: There yo ugo Torga
Togra Pierterson: oh, thanks
Schwartz Guillaume: move over to Seascale
Argent Stonecutter: There's 4 sims!
The Soapbox: Togra Pierterson is on the soapbox now!
Jade Lily: creepy, isn't it? the force tp
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Togra Pierterson: ok, I've only been in SL for a while, but I've seen a lot, and most of it I've found is modern day stuff
Togra Pierterson: as a video game it's possible to make fantasy kinds of worlds- futuristic, past, etc., but especially around the mainland I've seen a lot of houses that I can see if I look out the window in reality
Togra Pierterson: there are a few exceptions, but usually they're not very big, and they don't go very far
Wendella McGettigan is offline
Togra Pierterson: most vehicles around are planes or cars or helicopters, which can be seen sometimes on a day to day basis in reality, and although there are a lot of hovercars, the stuff I can afford is the kind of stuff my neighbor has in his garage
Schwartz Guillaume: so people ought to be required to build stuff you want to see, rather than the stuff they want to make
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Togra Pierterson: my question is, are you considering making insentive to get people to be original as well as to build stuff ?
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Argent Stonecutter: Sign me up for a Future-zoned sim!
Selkit Diller: Togra, remind me to take you on a tour of the Arcology.
Aenea Christensen chuckles, try a gorean sim, they're medieval fantasy like :)
Selkit Diller: Or show you a G-flight interceptor.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Visit nexus prime, cyberpunk city, available since 2003...
Togra Pierterson: I'll have to do that diller :o
Raavi Mann: Argent - how about Star Wars?
derek Franklin: Sim-Crackhouse®
Ares Desmoulins: or rausch, all sorts of futuristic stuff
Argent Stonecutter: I'll drop you a LM for my space station.
Sue Stonebender is offline
Argent Stonecutter: Star Wars is just media fandom.
Schwartz Guillaume: check out Elvenglen and Elf Haven
Blue Linden: art imitates life
Diabolique Diamond is online
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: life is boring
You: Hey if ew're going to hvae spam, rent my townhouses at Solar Plaza
Blue Linden: or other artworks ;p
Midtown Bienenstich: How can you build something.
Midtown Bienenstich: that you have not seen>?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: LOL
Midtown Bienenstich: Most people, see houses.
Selkit Diller: Blue; If that's the case, my life is full of giant gold pyramids, Mediterranean bath-houses, and sky-scraping arcologies.
Veronna Elytis: a star wars sim has allready been made called new holstice representing several planets from the star wars story on just one sim, so i suppose futeristic sims can be made
Togra Pierterson: thanks fer the BM
Midtown Bienenstich: It's a fact of SL life.
Raavi Mann: And another sim in the plans, Veronna
Lexa Pierterson: The art galleries are incredible as are some of the gardens
Veronna Elytis nods
Schwartz Guillaume: if people wanted to build more fantasy stuff or cyberpunk stuff or surreal art or whatever, then you'd see it in world
Hermoine Pennyfeather is online
Argent Stonecutter: Oh, and the D'ni sim is insanelly great!
Selkit Diller: Lexa; There was plans in the works to film an SLTV special there when I still had the production side of it in my hands.
Raavi Mann: People should be encouraged to build ANYTING they want
Schwartz Guillaume: if you want people to build a certain way, money talks
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Veronna Elytis shouts: in any style they want
Schwartz Guillaume: buy a sim and pay people to develop it
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree Raavi, it's about inspiration
Raavi Mann: Precisely
The Soapbox: It is Prokofy Neva's turn to speak, please take the floor
Raavi Mann: Inspiration comes from a person, Mid
Midtown Bienenstich: !
You can't enter this region because
the server is full.
You can't enter this region because
the server is full.
Veronna Elytis: oh raavi did you click the soapbox to ask about the comm
Raavi Mann: One is inspired by this, someone else by the other thing around the corner
You: region full
Raavi Mann: Yes I did, Veronna
You: so can I just speak right here?
You can't enter this region because
the server is full.
Vague Speculaas: oh god
Veronna Elytis: cool
Schwartz Guillaume: I'm going to take a nap now
Vague Speculaas: Get ready to read an eassay
Schwartz Guillaume: wake me when it's over
Togra Pierterson writes down all the suggestions for fantasy places to visit. Thanks
Sue Stonebender is online
Try moving closer.  Can't sit on object because
it is not in the same region as you.
Cocoanut Koala: be polite, dammit!
Robin Linden: Please don't be rude. It's Prok's turn and he deserves the same attention as everyone.
Selkit Diller: Togra; I'd toss you a landmark to the Arcology, but it's still a work in progress.
You: it's teleporting me so I won't risk it again
You: ok
Raavi Mann: Can the people who already spoke move to Seascale?
You: can I just speak from the floor here?
Jeska Linden: Sure thing
Robin Linden: sure
You: LL should look carefully at Beth Noveck's theories because they are extremely troublesome;
Personal Chat Recorder 1.1-XPM: Script run-time error
Personal Chat Recorder 1.1-XPM: Stack-Heap Collision
Raavi Mann: That should solve the issue
You: she skips lightly over the totalitarianisms of the 20th century and promotes group rights
Personal Chat Recorder 1.1-XPM: The recording session has ended. [60.216667 minutes]
You: over hard-won individual rights and states' rights.
You: they count too!
You: Empowering groups BY WHOM, what KIND of groups, to do WHAT? You cannot be content-blind on this
Argent Stonecutter: The soapbox is delivering heap errors if you try and join the queue.
Midtown Bienenstich: Not to be rude, but Chat Recorder has stoped
You: as you are with all content if you want civilization
Vague Speculaas: what are Beth Noveck's theories?
You: With that in mind I'd like to ask what is meant today in Philip's interview to MM
You: about new tools that will create "covenants" on sims or have groups that can zone mainland sims.
You: How will the groups be defined, and what tools are being planned?
You: I can't stress enought the importance of early and frequent consultation on this with residents in groups.
You: thanks
Jeska Linden: Thanks Prokofy, we are planning on incoroporating new tools for groups to use both on and off the mainland.
Schwartz Guillaume: that's it?
Schwartz Guillaume: :>
Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW for Beth article on "democracy of groups": http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue10_11/noveck/
Jeska Linden: And will be sure to continue consulting with the community before we make any changes in regards to groups.
You: what KIND of tools Jeska? fine-tuning of officers' rights? or?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: like what tools
Raavi Mann: Now that is one good question
Jeska Linden: Needless to say, groups are being used in a very different way than when we first designed them
Jesse Linden: Mob enabling technologies
Midtown Bienenstich: what kind of zoning?
Veronna Elytis nods
Midtown Bienenstich: when?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suggestion: open up a new thread on the Feature Feedback forum, perhaps?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: no zoning no planning
Jeska Linden: Groups are being used now to run businesses, not just keep track of like-minded friends
Midtown Bienenstich: What is the Linden's take on the effect of this zoning?
Midtown Bienenstich: What is it's purpose?
You: Exactly mob-enabling technologies
Vague Speculaas: That's a good move
Dnate Mars: shared inventories?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Robin, that would be nice, specially if you could line out the major changes/new features on groups.
Argent Stonecutter: Company groups? Sales to groups, at a "site license" rate?
Vague Speculaas: Robin how long would the wait for this be
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh!
Argent Stonecutter: How enforced?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Any suggestions on how the "covenants" will be used/enforced?
Ares Desmoulins: i see this turning into the land barond reforming the world to THEIR liking, not the community's liking
Ares Desmoulins: barons*
You: yes how will they get drafted and verified?
Pypo Chung: i recoomend footsoldiers ^_^
Schwartz Guillaume: covenants are usually managed by the communities themselves, in real-world neighborhoods
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What does "manage" exactly mean?
You: Hardly Ares, the group tools already heavily favour non-land-barons and in fact cripple them so don't worry
Argent Stonecutter: Covenants are inforced in RL because the goverbment provides the tools to enforce contracts.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed Argent.
Midtown Bienenstich: so, Robin much like the sim of Slate?
Argent Stonecutter: Which means courts.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And a legal system to back them up.
You: why use the word convenants like it's out of the Bible? why not just "contracts" or "agreements"???
Midtown Bienenstich: zone controlled.. etx.
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: yeah iand if a group wants covenant how do they do it
Gwyneth Llewelyn echoes Argent
Midtown Bienenstich: *etc
Midtown Bienenstich: awesome :D
Argent Stonecutter: If LL would enforce contracts in general that would be great.
Aliasi Stonebender: because that's the word often used in RL in housing situations, Prok. Might as well ask why they use Latin in the courtroom.
Schwartz Guillaume: Pro: because that's what they're called in the real-world as it relates to community-run zoning
Argent Stonecutter: But I can't see them having the manpower.
You: Swwartz: not in everybody's real world
Schwartz Guillaume: yes in everyone's real world
You: it's just some nouveau buzzword
Schwartz Guillaume: aaaargh
Lexa Pierterson: covenant is a common real estate term
You: um, communities often just have th eword "contarct" or "agreement" like "corporations" have "bylaws"
Dnate Mars: woot!
You: what are we making communes here again???
Raavi Mann: Now that would rock
Schwartz Guillaume: it's a common word for communities and zoning boards
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: too much talk too fast
You: yes and no Schwartz, and that's not ONLY what we'd be making with groups
Midtown Bienenstich: does Covenants = Homeowner's Association?
Argent Stonecutter: I got my tie-dyed textures ready now!
Aenea Christensen: "Nouveau buzzword" is a nouveau buzzword :)
Schwartz Guillaume: if you don't like the word, feel free to call it a Rubberduck or a Sproingdoodle or whatever
Aliasi Stonebender: enough of the semantics, I think it can be agreed that improved group tools = love.
Midtown Bienenstich: because, the only covenant I know.. is the alien in Halo :
You: well but why homeowners'; associations? we want to hvae businesses and corporations too
Operating Thetan: covenant is a better word than contract because covenant is not a verb
You: aren't we done making communes here Lindens?
Schwartz Guillaume: what's wrong with communes?
Argent Stonecutter: I like contract myself, because I think we need enforcable contracts unrelated to land.
You: They lead to crime Schwartz?
Jeannedellalune Prudhomme: yes lets have a;meetiing on that
You: they lead to officers stealing land from those who paid for it and hold tier on it
Teeny Leviathan: Communes are out. Sproingdoodles are in. :)
Aenea Christensen: Oh come on who cares about what it's called..
You: Maybe just portion off one or twoo sims for those who'd like to keep the socialist communes of that type? and fix the group tools for the rest of us?
Schwartz Guillaume: okay fine Ayn Rand, I'll stop
Midtown Bienenstich: I think we are wasting time debating a single word.
Argent Stonecutter: Just make sure it's applicable to more than land.
You: Um, no, I'm not Ayn Rand, I'm just not Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Schwartz Guillaume: whatever, AYN
You: Argent what we have already favours non-land?
Argent Stonecutter: NO, you're Prokofy Neva!
The Soapbox: It is Matt Enfield's turn to speak, please take the floor
Dnate Mars: it is all better tools, there is more then one way a tool like that can be used prok
You: and we need to fix it to stop *discriminating against* land
Midtown Bienenstich: :(
Raavi Mann: Robin - what about others who wanted to speak?!?
You: Donate I've suggested how it could be fixedto make any kind of group , socialist or capitalist, wheras you socialists keep wanting to keep it your way LOL
Tateru Nino: I am passing. Having listened to others speak, I do not wish to waste this assembly's time with my thoughts.
Midtown Bienenstich: please extend the meeting to 6pm, and have a timed discussion.
Matt Enfield: Hi, I just wanted to know what types of programs you had in mind to replace DI?
Schwartz Guillaume: DI?
derek Franklin: like grants?
Argent Stonecutter: Did you think about *tweaking* DI instead of abandoning it?
Schwartz Guillaume: you can't have community without commune
Vague Speculaas: Supporting content creators is where LL should really look into
Dnate Mars: Why?
Vague Speculaas: As of right now content creation is a free agent thing
Dnate Mars: Content should support itself
Vague Speculaas: This game thrives on content
Vague Speculaas: This game IS user content, therefore it should be supported
Argent Stonecutter: Because content is what brings people in game and makes money for LL.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vague — talk to sponsors
Schwartz Guillaume: because communities don't exist in a void, they need some content
Matt Enfield: A lot of the clubs are such will no longer be able to pay employees once DI goes away. Will you new system offer any real kind of finnancial support to them?
Dnate Mars: no, this is not a game, games can be won
You: one thing that might be helpful is if people *sold* content instead of giving it away for free
Vague Speculaas: Ok, how about a sandbox
Pypo Chung: you can win in second life
Argent Stonecutter: Anshe already won this one. :)
Pypo Chung: just become a rich person ^_^
Vague Speculaas: a social sandbox, the word sandbox itself leads to creation of content
Matt Enfield: OK, thanks!
Dnate Mars: That to me is not winning
Shaun Altman: Dnate: perhaps it just has multiple victory scenerios :D
Cocoanut Koala: Support for non-physical content - it is all going away, and that's a problem.
Robin Linden: I can't hear Prokofy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Prokofy. Or clubs charging for entertainment.
Argent Stonecutter: Nobody's going to pay a cover fee to go to a club in SL.
Robin Linden: what did he say?
Raavi Mann: OK, so we will pay for the game AND for it's content?
Veronna Elytis: that sucks
Aliasi Stonebender: "Prokofy Neva: one thing that might be helpful is if people *sold* content instead of giving it away for free"
Schwartz Guillaume: Robin: people should sell things instead of giving them away is what Prok said
Dougal Jacobs: Prokofy Neva: one thing that might be helpful is if people *sold* content instead of giving it away for free
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy suggested that content should be sold instead of freely given away
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops sorry Dougal.
Raavi Mann: That will kill the game. Period
Robin Linden: Raavi - many many people here don't pay for Second Life.
Aenea Christensen: yay capitalism
Vague Speculaas: I doubt anyone will pay a charge to go to clubs. The reason clubs work is because they give away money. Most of the events that get people are the ones based on a chance of monetary gain
Felix Sholokhov: yeah, just like no one will pay for water but what does it sell for a gallon now in RL?
Midtown Bienenstich: We the people of SL, should pay for more stuff.
Cocoanut Koala: Next, dwell itself might go.
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree with Gwen's first comment.
Midtown Bienenstich: Capitalism doesnt function if money doesnt move.
Midtown Bienenstich: period.
Argent Stonecutter: Dwell is IMPORTNAT.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was my suggestion as well, Cocoanut.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear Midtown....
Raavi Mann: Midtown - take a look at the SL website and see the transaction indicator
Cocoanut Koala: i'm not suggesting dwell go, gwyn
Vague Speculaas: Giving away content is a good idea. Giving away is sharing, sharing of the knowledge, which means more people can learn from examples and further the creations of their own
Dnate Mars: no, the DI is not working, the dweel help even the little guy
Raavi Mann: Money DOES move
Argent Stonecutter: Dwell simulates part of the economy that SL "hides" by making avatars perfect.
Operating Thetan: Shouldn't the reward for building a community be the community itself, not a fat check from Linden Labs?
Raavi Mann: And it moves in rather big amounts if you ask me
Midtown Bienenstich: no Vague.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know Cocoanut — but *I* am ;)
Vague Speculaas: However, there's nothing stopping you from selling your content
Midtown Bienenstich: IT's lost of economy.
Togra Pierterson: freebies help the new people learn how to start, in the case of scripts anyway, and it helps give them a chance
Midtown Bienenstich: some things should be given away
Midtown Bienenstich: not everythine
Argent Stonecutter: Dwell is all the small purchases you make all the time. Gas. Food.
Dnate Mars: but it does cost a lot to build that community
Dougal Jacobs: There is too much currency, Dwell isnt actuall GIVING money to the economy, what its doing is INFLATE the money supply and make the money that the end consumers DO have worth less...
Argent Stonecutter: You don't need to feed your avatar.
Midtown Bienenstich: people in SL think.. "I should only pay L for objects I can keep"
Argent Stonecutter: Instead you shed "dwell".
Midtown Bienenstich: that has to change.
Cocoanut Koala: i agree with selkit diller
Robin Linden: I have 5 minutes, then I need to go.
Ares Desmoulins: if i had to pay for every club or event i had to go to, i would have never made it past my 7 day trial
Schwartz Guillaume: just because a lot of people are furries doesn't mean that furry communities should get preference
Raavi Mann: Robin - next person maybe?
Midtown Bienenstich: then you upgrade Ares
Midtown Bienenstich: or buy Linden
Argent Stonecutter: There's other non-furry communities.
The Soapbox: It is katykiwi Moonflower's turn to speak, please take the floor
Argent Stonecutter: What abiout aviators?
Airvata Rental $50: Store rented for 30 days...
Dnate Mars: I think getting rid of the DI also will help the L$ market, now people aren't going to be so happily ready to just give L$ away
John Wallaby gets bored, same compalints and arguement that I see at any other meeting and on the forums.... Going home.
katykiwi Moonflower: is there another speaker
Argent Stonecutter: Selkit: so did I.
Vague Speculaas: Midtown I agree with you. I'm not saying that everything should be given away, but that free content should exist. It is good for the economy because other people will learn by example and make even more content.
Robin Linden: Katy did you want to speak?
katykiwi Moonflower: yes ty
Schwartz Guillaume: DI = developer incentive
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now!
Cocoanut Koala: but DI is based on dwell
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: An easy and doable incentive for dwellfare queens is to make a top 100 of the most popular places instead of top 20 -- why is it only 20???
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now, please hush!
katykiwi Moonflower: i wanted to briefly address the influx of new members
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: and the need for formal linden supported classes
Aliasi Stonebender: Vague: I don't think anyone's going to come around and yell at you every time you hit the "free to copy" box on your stuff in SL....
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: help island has a lot of nice tutorials however once the member leaves they are at a loss on how to proceed in sl , we used to have event classes
katykiwi Moonflower: conducted by linden sponsored instructors and i think the need is there for that formal structure on a daily events schedule
Jesse Linden: there are in fact formal Linden supported classes
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: katykiwi — 25 classes just *today* ...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jeska Linden: Today there were 25 of them ;)
Jesse Linden: anyone who is interested can become an approved instructor
Jesse Linden: and teach classes
katykiwi Moonflower: there is a heavy realiance on mentors who are now used more like quasi employees rather than volunteers
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: and receive Linden $'s even
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: hear hear Katy, and that's a very slippery slope and already sliding
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Jesse Linden: Instructors are a separate group from mentors
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: i think we need more structure jesse more of a fixed schedule rather than the heavy unpredictable reliance on mentors and volunteers
Raavi Mann: OK, come on, Veronna... it's a waste of time here, our main issue won't be addressed since I won't make it to the spambox
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Veronna Elytis nods
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Veronna Elytis: meet you back at HQ
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Schwartz Guillaume: poor raavi :(
You: well maybe spam into chat then Raavi? we're a captive audience
Jesse Linden: you are in fact standing on a new instructor stage area
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: built for the express purpose
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Dnate Mars: why aren't the other groups paid too? Is there work not as important?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: of hosting classes
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Raavi Mann: My issue is short and to Lindens only
The Soapbox: Shhh...
You: I need to get this tile in my RL bathroom -- why do all these builds look like toilets though?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
The Soapbox: katykiwi Moonflower is on the soapbox now, please hush!
Togra Pierterson: oh BURN
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: in the mentors group the spam requests for a mentor to teach scripting or building are interesting because it leads to the question what is the duty of a volunteere mentor,
Argent Stonecutter: prok: rofl
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: i would like to see the system be more the way it was a couple of years ago where there were daily classes on the events schedule to help with the basics and perhaps advanced areas such as poser
Jeska Linden: Katy have you come to any of the Mentor meetings we hold monthly?
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: there are daily classes on the events schedule
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: in fact the Teazer's group has been doing a great job
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jesse Linden: teaching up to 15 classes a day
The Soapbox: Shhh...
Jeska Linden: We have been trying to refocus the energy of the mentors on welcoming new Residents, because for a while it seemed the Mentors were a bit lost for a clearly defined purpose.
The Soapbox: Shhh...
katykiwi Moonflower: the classes i have in mind i guess i am asking for somethign wiht more structure and regularity
The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
You: Maybe that was a sign they should be disbanded Jeska?
Schwartz Guillaume: oops this isn't working let's just throw it away
You: And you could hire professinals outside the resident base who are less biased.
katykiwi Moonflower: yes i am askign for linden classes not teazers
Lexa Pierterson: I would have been lost without my mentor the first week.
Jesse Linden: do you mean a Building 101 class every Monday at 2pm?
Jeska Linden: Well I don't know if I'd throw the baby out with the bathwater, since many of the mentors are very interested in helping new Residents.
katykiwi Moonflower: yes predictability
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Katy — what exactly is wrong with Teazer's?
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree with Katy, newcomers will find more trust in a class held by Linden, then a random one held by random one.
katykiwi Moonflower: when someone can plan to be here to take a class,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or Bob's classes?
You: I know my mentor helped me by $1200 worth of clothes at her friends' stores when i was new!
Jesse Linden: every class is posted well in advance
katykiwi Moonflower: i guess when i started there were classes conducted by the linden instructors who were actually provided guidelines for information
Alan Kiesler: How about placing education on its own tab in find, or something else to point out those specific events? I know of very few prople who will actually look at events anymore.
Jesse Linden: im not sure we have the resources for that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what you say is that residents are incompetent/biased and not really teaching anything worthwhile?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or that there should be a quality verification upon Linden-sponsored classes?
Felix Sholokhov: perhaps, considering the influx of new residents, there should be more postings in the MoTD regarding the classes or rather where to find out about them
katykiwi Moonflower: if anyone here sincerely feels the education and training for new members is adequate then i really think they need to be in world with members asking such basic questions that it leaves me thinking more is needed to accommdate the increase in members
Jesse Linden: ok Felix, fair enough
Dougal Jacobs: Felix's idea is keen.
Dnate Mars: what idea is that?
Vague Speculaas: Having a separate tab for classes would be a great idea, since all the events are filled with now is TRINGO and camping chairs. It's rare that something worthwhile is happening.
Dougal Jacobs: MotD
Jeska Linden: You can sort by education to get only classes Vague.
Jesse Linden: Im all for taking suggestions to expand educational program support in Sl
katykiwi Moonflower: events are filled with a lot of confusion yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The only issue I can agree with katykiwi is about *quality control*
Jesse Linden: feel free to email me at [email protected]
Cocoanut Koala: education: = classes. Usually Teazers.
Schwartz Guillaume: is there an introduction to using Find on Prelude Island because I swear nobody new ever seems to figure it out except by chance
Alan Kiesler: I'm talking about taking education *OUT* of Events. Altogether.
Wyn Stormwind: i've seen tringo events listed as education, though
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which *could* be overseen by LL.
Cocoanut Koala: teaching tringo maybe!
Wyn Stormwind: by saing that they'll teach you how to play
Schwartz Guillaume: learn to play tringo
Wyn Stormwind: that is very lame
Gwyneth Llewelyn wents to a Tringo class once....
Cocoanut Koala: well that is legit
Jeska Linden: Mis-listed evnets should be reported.
Jan Bjornson: ?
Midtown Bienenstich: !
Cocoanut Koala: teaching tringo belongs under education.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well jeska, one thing is mis-listing
Robin Linden: sorry - I have to run.
Shaun Altman: what's wrong with a class that teaches the finer points of a game though?
Jeska Linden: Bye Robin!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other is quality control
Robin Linden: thanks for coming everyone
Vague Speculaas: There's an education event listed right now that's about camping chairs
katykiwi Moonflower: well those who were for a while can remember the former class structure where there were meetings with instructors that covered who would teach what and when
Robin Linden: bye!
Cocoanut Koala: thanks robin
You: I'm all for education, and I can think about certain pose-ball education I could use too!
Dnate Mars: bye
katykiwi Moonflower: bye bye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Prok :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and bye Robin
Vague Speculaas: bye robin, thanks for staying
Midtown Bienenstich: bye..
Togra Pierterson: bye
You: bye Robin thanks
Midtown Bienenstich: well..
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What was your idea, Toy?
Midtown Bienenstich: vote Prop 866 everyone!
Dougal Jacobs: Bye Robin!
Dnate Mars: what is 866?
Midtown Bienenstich: Texture Black Listing
Midtown Bienenstich: 866
Shaun Altman: I also have to run.. nite all.. thx for the event LL.. it was informative and interesting
You: bye Shaun
Midtown Bienenstich: Is a solution for the Lazarus Diving issue
Blue Linden: bye shaun :)
Shaun Altman is offline
Jeska Linden: Thanks for coming out everyone -- next time I promise we'll have a topic :)
Jeska Linden: Keep us all focused and such.
Blue Linden: I have to scram too, thank you all!
Dnate Mars: bye blue
Vague Speculaas: I like this topicless discussions more
Felix Sholokhov: you provide the instructors and I'll suplly the land
Blue Linden: haha Jeska :)
Vague Speculaas: SL users really talk their minds
Vague Speculaas: bye bye Jeska
Gwyneth Llewelyn: see you Jeska & Blue
Jeska Linden: Have fun everyone!
Midtown Bienenstich: simply put, a utlity that would allow people to add SL users they dont like, and not able to see their objets/textures in their viewer.
Togra Pierterson: bye
Dnate Mars: I agree toy
Felix Sholokhov: becuase I suck at teaching lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Toy — who would do the supervising? Liaisons? How will they cover 250+ events?
Dnate Mars: same way they do now
Cocoanut Koala: they dont supervise it now
You: Jesse could you clarify the rules about Lindens joining residents' groups?
Midtown Bienenstich: Selkit, all a texture the viewer wants to see.
Dougal Jacobs: Watch out for the roof! its a doosey!
Midtown Bienenstich: *replace
Dnate Mars: but if it is ARed it can be taken care of
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They don't, because of the sheer physical impossibility to do...
Cocoanut Koala: oh
Midtown Bienenstich: replace the missing texture with one the viewer wants to see
Midtown Bienenstich: right, something similar.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The "property owner" — and how does the property owners police themselves?
Jillian Callahan is online
Midtown Bienenstich: simply put
Midtown Bienenstich: it wiuld allow to VChip Lazaruys
Argent Stonecutter: They shoudl at least go back to the old loading texture for stuff that's phantom.
Midtown Bienenstich: it wouldnt be censoring him
Argent Stonecutter: Like, particles, and avs.
Cocoanut Koala: no, but it would be obliterating him
You: Rather than all this tekkie vchipping of Laz, just enforce the three existing CS and TOS regulations that appyl to this menace
Cocoanut Koala: I'd prefer we had a continuois society
You: such as "disturbing the peace" or "spam" or even "global attacks"
Midtown Bienenstich: Provoky, it will just lead back to censorship rights.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed — there is no need to invent new things, just to enforce the,
Midtown Bienenstich: you of all people should lnow that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *them
You: there is plenty of existing language in the TOS
Schwartz Guillaume: you can't have it both ways, you can't have freedom for everyone and then turn around and demand censorship tools
Dnate Mars: I would say it could only be spam, but that could be streaching it een
Midtown Bienenstich: If so, then why haven't the Lindens dealt with it?
You: well I'd like to know what would consttitute disturbing the peace and interfering with enjoyment of another's SL if not THIS???
Cocoanut Koala: That is a good question, Midtown.
You: really I'd like to see some practice to go with this law
Cocoanut Koala: I think it's cause they don't care about the mainland.
Midtown Bienenstich: As I can tell.
Teeny Leviathan: If everyone would stop posting about Lazarus every 5 minutes, he might just get bored and move on. He feeds on attention.
Midtown Bienenstich: A Linden can Easily be manipulated when a law already exists.
You: well is "spam" a censorship tool?
You: I know that you all jumped down finn's throat for one notecard about his land offering
Dnate Mars: if the sign would shout impeach bush, that is disterbing the peace
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy not everyone wants to life by your christian values
katykiwi Moonflower: good point teeny
You: and yet you all get blind when it comes to the MILLIIONS of "notecards" that Laz is littering with
Midtown Bienenstich: they wont tell you No, if the rule says Yes.
Schwartz Guillaume: the only reason Lazarus is so infamous is because people are making a giant deal of him
Cocoanut Koala: Christian values? Did I miss something? Whre did that come from?
You: why?
You: see why do you get to censor a landowner's spam but boost a content creators' spam?
You: why do you get to be biased like that?
Midtown Bienenstich: tbh, it's a double axe.
Schwartz Guillaume: did you know that you can click his billboards and they go away for a while
You: with your argumentation about censorship
Midtown Bienenstich: If you ignore Lazarus.
Midtown Bienenstich: he wont go away
You: so? then they come back in 20 minutes
Dnate Mars: I don't think either should be censored
Schwartz Guillaume: it's his land, he should get to do what he wants on it
You: like my tenants, who don't move in when they see them so I lose business !
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy it's clear you have your own agendas and bias
You: sure, they go away !
You: you too hon, keep talking : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, I think there is a difference between "enforcing the ToS" and "censorship"...
Argent Stonecutter: A rule applied equally to everyone isn't censorship.
Bill Stirling is online
Cocoanut Koala: What's worse is that anyone - you , me, a competitor - can come along and do exactly as Lazarus has done.
Midtown Bienenstich: right, Cocoanut
Schwartz Guillaume: and it's perfectly within our rights to do so
katykiwi Moonflower: why not put up a wall to block the view of it with a nice sky scene on it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Argent
Argent Stonecutter: It's just a rule. IF It's really applied equally.
Dnate Mars: I know, what is to stop the next person from doing the same thing?
You: well why would someone with 64 m2 on a sim where I own the other 65,000 odd meters have more rights? are you saying my socialist rights of my group don't count?
Selkit Diller: Katy; Because that makes for a seriously cheesy build.
Schwartz Guillaume: anybody can do what Lazarus has done, and it should be perfectly within the rules
katykiwi Moonflower: cheesier than the sign you decry
Argent Stonecutter: NO.
Selene Gregoire is offline
You: well why is it ok to disturb the peace, spam the land, and make global attacks across sims?
You: why?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Schwartz: the point is, it is *against* the rules
Argent Stonecutter: That's how spammers got started on usenet and email.
Dnate Mars: right, but is that what we want for SL?
Argent Stonecutter: "it's only one message":
Cocoanut Koala: Why not put a cap on how many tiny lots you can own?
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is too liberal, any type of censorship or right "taken" away will be easily challenged.
Argent Stonecutter: JUST HIT DELETE.
Schwartz Guillaume: how is a rotating sign and expensive land against the rules
Dnate Mars: just a bunch of signs everywere?
You: when it no longer says IMPEACH BUSH, but say DRINK COCA-COLA, I guess we'll hear from you?
Argent Stonecutter: JUST HIT DELETE doesn't work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dnate — I just ask the Lindens to enforce their own rules, not much more is needed
Selene Gregoire is online
You: Yes enforce the existing CS
You: that's all that is required
You: no brain surgery
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed
katykiwi Moonflower: this is an old issue, arising about land scanners and small lots, and anshe signs,
Argent Stonecutter: JUST HIT DELETE is how you get people losing their domains because their spam filters blocked the renewal notices.
Dnate Mars: I know, I agree
Schwartz Guillaume: say cheese Selk
Vague Speculaas: The Second Life works like it does now is because it allows so much FREEDOM in ANYTHING. This also opens up for some unfavorable acts by certain people, but that is the sacrifice you have to take in order to enjoy Second Life at its fullest
Dnate Mars: but is it really against the rules?
Midtown Bienenstich: then I dont get it..
Kaboom Pow: It's not about spamming, it's about jerks using intimidation and harrassment to sell small lots at overly inflated prices.
Midtown Bienenstich: if this law against Lazarus, etc is in place.
Cocoanut Koala: No it is not a required sacrifice.
Argent Stonecutter: Yes, right now, spamming is just a tactic.
Midtown Bienenstich: then again, why have not the Lindens doen anuthing?
Argent Stonecutter: That tactic should be banned.
Midtown Bienenstich: *done anything.
Cocoanut Koala: Because they think it is a freedom issue.
You: well Vague I'm tired of sacrificing hundreds of RL dollars over lost business due to that crap in the air, why is that beneficial to "freedom of expression"? What about mY freedom of expression??
Selkit Diller: Oh look, I've become five minutes of Goontainment on Photoshop Friday.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vague, I'm sorry — I can't agree. So why can *some* people blatantly violate ToS and CS and get away for it because of a "small sacrifice"?
Dnate Mars: I think the gotcha is when he started that he is listing to fill the land sales and is not really looking to sell them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So does ToS and CS just apply to *some* of us, but not all? Why?
Schwartz Guillaume: you are a terrible goonsecutionist and I will report you for harassing goons
Vague Speculaas: so Prokofy everything should be catered to you? And make a bunch of rules that would break other people's freedoms?
Schwartz Guillaume: how dare you
Midtown Bienenstich: If the Lindens think it's a freedom issue, then we must propose to the Lindens something else.
Midtown Bienenstich: thus
Midtown Bienenstich: Prop 866
You: If they enforce there existing law, and then find that some other asstard crops up to test their resolve, and it seems to unfairly ding creativity, they can adjust it
Selkit Diller: Fursecution! Fursecution!
You: meanwhile, they ahve the authority and the discretion to ACT
Schwartz Guillaume: GOONSECUTION
Dnate Mars: no, 866 is not the way
Cocoanut Koala: No, vague, it should be catered to all of us.
Kaboom Pow: It's the same as noise harrassment to get you to buy abutting land at inflated prices.
Midtown Bienenstich: why not Dnate?
You: LENINSECUTION
Vague Speculaas: exactly
You: let's take a straw poll
RedRose Groshomme: /ao nextstand
You: I'd like to see how big this Leninist claque really is here
Dnate Mars: I think there is a bigger underlying issue that needs to be solved
Cocoanut Koala: They of course can act within the TOS, they just refuse to, and claim helplessness.
Operating Thetan: Oh drat I drew the short straw
RedRose Groshomme: /ao nextstand
You: who here is in favour of the Lindens enforcing their existing CS and TOS and removing the signs?
You: say aye
Midtown Bienenstich: Dnate, and what is that?
Cocoanut Koala: AYE
You: aye
Argent Stonecutter: aye
Dnate Mars: what is spam?
Selkit Diller: Prok; Nay. I doubt the signs are actually against TOS.
You: transmission across frontiers
Cocoanut Koala: The SIGNS themselves are NOT against the TOS.
You: first let's take the ayes Selkit? then you can speak to your motion
Cocoanut Koala: The MESSAGE on the sign is not against the tos.
Argent Stonecutter: spam is flooding a communication channel with a message to the point where that message becomes noise on the channel.
Cocoanut Koala: HAVING A SIGN is not a gainst the tos.
Midtown Bienenstich: Even the Lindens do create anti-spam legislation..
Midtown Bienenstich: what makes you think
You: the motion on the floor is, who is in favour of the Lindens enfrocing existing TOS by asking Laz to remove the signs or removing them?
Midtown Bienenstich: his signs are part of it?
Cocoanut Koala: Having hundred signs, using them to grief and extort (and spam) IS against the TOS.
You: aye
Jesse Linden: allright im off folks
Dnate Mars: they have anti-spam already in the TOS
Selkit Diller: Prok? In an open forum, enforcing a speaking order is indeed the sort of censorship you complain about.
JIJI Jimador: People, people, we should be more concerned about the comming of Zalgo.
Jesse Linden: thanks for coming
Jesse Linden: have fun
katykiwi Moonflower: coco is right on that
Schwartz Guillaume: bye Jesse
Selkit Diller: And I think I'm in my rights to speak against the motion.
Dougal Jacobs: Bye Jesse!
Cocoanut Koala: When you give this guy his right to do that, we lose our rights to live properly in the world, I believe.
Shack Dougall is online
Vague Speculaas: Who is here FOR the ac tion of lindens writing a SPECIFIC tos that tells you exactly what is wrong and what is right, so that they couldn't vaguely cater to those who take the most advantage of the sl residents and come away at the top
You: rolls on floor with laughter @ Selkit
Operating Thetan: hear hear, Vague
Schwartz Guillaume: this motion is stupid
You: could we hear ayes or nays please on this motion?
Schwartz Guillaume: it's a loaded question
Midtown Bienenstich: Provoky, it doesn't matter.
Midtown Bienenstich: if we all really cared.
Dnate Mars: I lost it, what are you asking?
JIJI Jimador: No one here is ready for Zalgo, it may already be too late.
Selkit Diller: Wow. I'm about to agree with a Goon. Hug me, Schwartzie.
Midtown Bienenstich: we'd overwhelm the Lindens
You: yes it does Midtown, opinioni grrows and it wil solidify around this eventually
Midtown Bienenstich: which would be good
Schwartz Guillaume: ffff
Cocoanut Koala: On the forums, sentiment is running 3 to 1 in favor of removing the signs on the poll there.
Dnate Mars: well, yes
Schwartz Guillaume: who cares about sentiment
You: well could we hear what people here in this chance gathering think?
Cocoanut Koala: well - counting those who just want to remove SOME of them.
Vague Speculaas: There has already been a proposition for the Lindens to write a specific TOS that would have concrete laws, they refused
Midtown Bienenstich: you're right onthat Prok.
Schwartz Guillaume: we just showed that most people here have the sentiment of thinking that pedophilia is okay
Cocoanut Koala: Well, Schwartz, don't yu care about what people think about the society?
You: maybe because it's a vague and speculatory concept Vague? what you propose
Schwartz Guillaume: just because a lot of people think it doesn't mean it's right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But is there any *doubt* about ToS violation in this case??
Cocoanut Koala: No we didn't.
Midtown Bienenstich: but we need to find a away to get our actions truly strengthed.
Dnate Mars: I have a question, if he had just one sign, is that spam?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Argent Stonecutter: Hitler hitler hitler!
Cocoanut Koala: no it is not dnate
Selkit Diller: Granted, the signs are an eyesore. Granted, they're a bloody nuisance. But as an idle note... if you want an entire sim? Buy an estate and exercise whatever form of totalitarian control or pseudodemocracy that you want.
Argent Stonecutter: ne sign isn't spam.
Dougal Jacobs: ....
Dnate Mars: what about 5?
Cocoanut Koala: which is -selkit - probably what the lindens are thinking.
Cocoanut Koala: brb
You: well explain to me how we can have a world that persecutes finn, permabans me from the forums, fails to remove Boycott Anshe signs in the new continent, but leaves up Lazars?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe I see your point, Dnate
You: I want to hear about how that world is for "freedom of expression:?
Midtown Bienenstich: Honestly, we the people of SL, need to put the Lindens in the hotseat
Selkit Diller: And another note? If you're going to complain about the signs, why not complain about all the virtual-ad billboards everywhere?
Vague Speculaas: I propose that the reason there's so much argument over what's allowed and what isn't is because the lindens don't have concrete laws, and only vaguely give you what should and shouldnt be done. They do this for their own gain, so that in the end they
Teeny Leviathan: The Lindens aren't gonna act on this issue. The only way Lazarus is going away is to catch him for something else. He will slip up. I see it coming.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should I quote Robin Linden on her former views on the subject? "All content deemed offensive will be removed"
Vague Speculaas: have the ultimate power and say over what is ok and isnt
Argent Stonecutter: The thing about spam is, any reasonably limit on spam is way higher than non-spammers need.
Selkit Diller: Is there a cutoff point for a number of object duplicates when it becomes spam?
Argent Stonecutter: Make it 50.
Dnate Mars: what about the ad-net billboards, are they spam?
Schwartz Guillaume: because Lazarus's signs and the anti-Anshe signs are passive while you try to incite flamewars and barely skirt around the forums TOS
Midtown Bienenstich: What about an Anti-Laz group?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it's not a question of ONE sign vs MANY
Selkit Diller: Argent, that's probably the number of networked ad signs in your average large mall.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ONE sign is all it's needed
You: The Lindens have discretionary powers and good language about spam and about "harming the enjoyment of SL for another"
Multi Gadget v1.33.2 by Timeless Prototype
Schwartz Guillaume: how is a sign harmful
Schwartz Guillaume: how is 100 signs harmful
You: I'd be for a policy that kept all signage by the roadside and off the rest of the sim
Cocoanut Koala: back
Schwartz Guillaume: if you want to get rid of it, hold your nose and buy the land
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not "harmful" — offensive
Argent Stonecutter: You have to consider the amount of land that they're visible from.
You: unless it was in a commercial area where these "conventants" could designate it as such possibly
Schwartz Guillaume: use your Libertarian dollar-votes
Selkit Diller: Prok; Censorship against personal expression. That would limit builds, of course.
Argent Stonecutter: That's why 100 emails isn't spam, but 100 usenet postings is.
You: No do not buy the land!
Midtown Bienenstich: being politically correct though...
Cocoanut Koala: i'd be for owning only 3 size 16s per individual; only 5 size 32s, etc.
Dnate Mars: but not for 20k per 16sqm
You: Do not cave to extortionists!
Midtown Bienenstich: these signs aren't spam.
Argent Stonecutter: Different channels have different carrying capacities.
You: it's that attitude that FEEDS THEM
Schwartz Guillaume: buy the land if you hate it so much
Midtown Bienenstich: it's his sign
You: yeah and enrich a terrorist? huh?
Midtown Bienenstich: his land
Schwartz Guillaume: then you'll be rid of it
You: hell no
You: HELL no
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy if they do something about those impeach bush signs, then that is censorship, which means anything can be censored after that. And it would be up to them to decide what to censor and what not to
Felix Sholokhov: I'd be against that proposal Coco
Dnate Mars: then it is extortion
Selkit Diller: Terrorist? Wow.
You: and since we're in mature here in Seascale, FUCK NOI
Dnate Mars: that is against the TOS too
Schwartz Guillaume: putting up posters is terrorism, wow
Cocoanut Koala: vague, it's like you are in macy's.
Argent Stonecutter: These are signs that can be seen from half a sim.
Midtown Bienenstich: Lazarus has us locked on purpose.
Selkit Diller: Lemme go buy Lazarus some 747s and AKs.
Cocoanut Koala: Someone comes in there and starts hollering in the lingerie department to "Impeach Bush!"
You: yes Schwartz, virtual terrorism to impose your will on civilians not involved in your dispute with some powers, yes that is the ideology of Leninist and Bakunist terrorism, sure
Selkit Diller: And maybe he could start swinging the monkeybars for a few hours in the desert each day.
Cocoanut Koala: the police can't do a thing, can they ? cause that would be censorship.
You: we need to call it what it is
You: virtual tho it may be
Argent Stonecutter: You can't compare that to something in a mall you can't see from 20 meters away.
Schwartz Guillaume: how is displaying a sign imposing your will
Selkit Diller: That's not terrorism, Prok, it's weak propaganda at best.
Schwartz Guillaume: isn't demanding he be banned completely from SL more terroristic
You: I am FORCED to look at it
Dnate Mars: it is extortion at worst
Schwartz Guillaume: perhaps even fascist
Selkit Diller: Prok; No, you're not forced to.
You: I cannot chose to look at it, as I could chose not to look at Finn's card, or the events list
Schwartz Guillaume: why not buy the land around it and build a pretty tower
Cocoanut Koala: I have NEVER demanded he be banned from SL.
Vague Speculaas: No one is holding your face into the impeach bush signs
Kaboom Pow: Exactly Dnate.
Cocoanut Koala: I have demanded only that his signs would be taken down.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Completely banning" is one thing for repeated offenses...
Argent Stonecutter: Bah, the lindens are gone, this is all peanut gallery stuff.
Dnate Mars: if his signs are spam, what about the ad-net billboards?
Argent Stonecutter: *poof*
Cocoanut Koala: OK Toy. Say a guy is on his own property, next to yours.
You: that's why all you nervous nellies bitching about eyebleeds from the events list and wanting to "clean it up" are such hypocrties
You: I don't HAVE to look at Tringo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: For a first offense against the ToS, removal of offensive content used to be enough
Kaboom Pow: Venting is healthy. lol
Cocoanut Koala: He decides to put on a nudie show in the front yard every night at 7.
Argent Stonecutter: Dnate: i've already addressed that
You: I am FORCED to look at Laz
Schwartz Guillaume: you are not forced to look at Laz
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy I am FORCED to listen to your ramblings. You are a terrorist. Lindens should do something about that. See what I did there? I used your own logic.
Cocoanut Koala: Police can't do anything can they/ After all it's his property.
Dnate Mars: I am sorry, I missed it
Selkit Diller: Prok? Build a tower around it and leave the top of the tower open. Because there's still access to his land, you're not violating TOS.
You: No Vague because you don't HAVE to come to this meeting
Schwartz Guillaume: put up a nice tower or decorative wall around his little 16m^2 parcel and you'll never see it again
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vague, and you can always mute him
Vague Speculaas: Prokofy you don't HAVE to look at that sign
You: whwereas I HAVE to look out the front porch of my property, there's no where else to look but on those signs
Operating Thetan: Since the Lindens are gone (except for Blue Linden who we are supposed to Disregard), I propose that the new topic of discussion be "Who is stronger, Goku or Superman?"
Midtown Bienenstich: Once again.
Operating Thetan: I say Goku.
Cocoanut Koala: toy, the one next to me didn't bother me either
Cocoanut Koala: Buit when the problem grew, that bothers me.
Selkit Diller: Prok, just as I can choose to mute you, you can choose to "mute" the sign by building something around it on your own land. Gee...
Midtown Bienenstich: You guys are talking like the US Congress meet of '97
Midtown Bienenstich: V-Chip Laz.
You: Um, W-HAT, because events griefers are still in the game, and they can't seem to eradicate them?
Vague Speculaas: no one is FORCING you TO look AT the sign THAT is in FRONT of your HOUSE
Dnate Mars: those signs bother me to no end, I have to look at them every day in Alta
You: um, ask Kenny Linden about that, I tried that
Schwartz Guillaume: if you want to control what you see so badly, buy your own sim that you can control with an iron will
You: and he threatened to "kick" me from the game
You: imagine that
You: uh, gosh, it's never enough Schwartz
Dnate Mars: the are all around me, i have very little I can look without a sign
You: I do own a few sims LOL
Selkit Diller: Prok? Who gives a damn about W-Hat beyond the oversensitives? I'm a fucking furry sitting next to a Goon right now having a LOLocaust
Cocoanut Koala: well i'm off y'all
You: that's offensive, to say something like "LOLOcaust" ugh
Cocoanut Koala: i'll see you later - and DO NOT BUY HIS LAND!
Schwartz Guillaume: LOLocaust LOLocaust LOLocaust
You: you people are really awful and now I see who YOU are Selkit
Midtown Bienenstich: buy Koala
Schwartz Guillaume: I AM FORCING YOU TO SEE MY HATE SPEECH
Cocoanut Koala is offline
You: ok I'm done! thanks Blue!
Schwartz Guillaume: furries and goons, banding together to piss off Prok
Selkit Diller: Prok; I'm hardly a goon. I'm not a W-Hatter. I just don't give a damn about SL politics.
You: it's been fun!