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Kyreh Abattoir

too long to be read in the time it takes to sip my morning coffe.

*drop it in the trashcan* nothing personal

Eric Rice

Whoa, I barely could skim this, since I'm headin out the door to do a road trek from Silicon Valley to Hollywood today... But I'll ping ya later and post some insights. :-)

Prokofy Neva

Hi, Eric, erm, yes, I'm sure you're busy! My own road trek usually takes me only from like My Building to My Kids' School to My Jobs but occasionally I get as far as like, Rochester, New York. Or even Cambridge or Washington, DC on a good day : )

But that's what teh Internets are for...

I look forward to hearing your insights and the story about the Barnes/Blanc configuration!

P.S. There isn't *really* a Strategic SL 1.5. It's just pretend.

P.P.S. At least, that's what we tell the newbies : )

Prokofy Neva

Hi, Khamon, I thought this was one of my better Star Trek episodes! Actually, I'm more of a Fugitive fan, like the one on the ship to Alaska? or with the baby? or Suzanne Pleshette? http://www.innermind.com/myguides/guides/fugitive.htm

Rez Menoptra

Just for the record, I don't have a graduate (master's or phd) degree in architecture, just a B.Arch, which is a 5 year undergrad, actually. As does my wife :) And ty for the correction, quite nice of you :)

Prokofy Neva

Rez, let me note that in listening to you for more than an hour yesterday, and having a fascinating convo, I must have said ten times: put a comment on my blog for the exact title you need for yourself. So I'm glad you did it!

You were mentioned in passing -- and I was glad to add in Enira who I had left out unintentionsly -- merely as an example of inworld architects who seemed far more credentialed than the list of the top SL "architects" we have like Maxx Monde or Lordfly Digeridoo or Barnesworth Anubis.

My point was to mention a RL company that had RL work unrelated to SL. You hastened to explain that you weren't an architect per se, i.e. in real life you need a license. OK, correction made. Now, you're saying you don't have a graduate degree, but just a B.Arch. OK, we've now established beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you're not a real architect, you just play one on TV -- I mean, on Second Life.

We talked about soulless architecture and architecture with heart, and how credentials aren't everything.

OK, not architects then, but...are we supposed to call you builders, or do you need a license in SL, too!

The point is, even though evidently there is much more in your chosen field where you could get even MORE credentialed, the university degree, and the RL experience and clients you have, indicate that y ou are simply operating on a different plane than a Barnes or a Lordfly.

Now, was that worth drawing so much attention to yourself, that you are a) not a RL architect b) without a graduate degree? Because the original purpose of this comment was not to exaggerate your credentials or leave out your wife, the original purpose was to contrast a RL company with actual RL credentials, with a variety of customers and now working in SL, too (and I may be even misrepresenting that degree of "variety") -- and those indigenous artisans who are only within SL and in RL are like, cashiers at Rite-Aid or something.

Now, do you see how pointless it is to put corrections like that in blogs? They just raise more questions and draw attention to more things. You talked to me so long, and I take it on good faith, that I felt I had to put some correction. But blogs are blogs. They aren't the Congressional Record of The New York Times. You can correct in a comment usually.

So let's focus on the real issue raised here, shall we? Is being an architect/builder/PSP jocket/prim wrangler in Second Life so different than any kind of graphics work in "RL" (which itself is going to involve the unreal world of fashion designs, cartoons, advertising campaigns, etc. and obviously not merely design of utilitarian things like train stations and hospitals). Are there special skills required?

Do you think there will be some kind of certification/licensing process for "an SL architect"?

Eric Rice/Spin Martin

How it all came to be.

When I first joined SL in September 05, I spent time doing the exploratory thing, hopping from James to Myrtle to Palulop, before deciding to get my first island... why? I'm a digital media type, and artist, a storyteller. My RL work is content--sometimes good, sometimes bad-- it's important to just do it. I just wanted to use SL to write a book, not own two islands, a record company, and consult to large companies.

When I created my sim, I was surprised to hear such praise, considering that yep, I use pre-fabs! I'm not a builder. Not ready yet. I'm just now starting to play with baked in texturing. I don't necessarily have the time or patience to build, especially there are plenty of talented builders out there. I like the stuff Barnes and Lordfly and Makaio do, as well as some of the stuff from the Aphex designers, Seigmancer's towers, and Rem's pure white builds.

When people say, "Did you build this?" It's important say, well, no, I'm an 'arranger'.

The Microsoft sim (which really, is it REALLY microsoft? It's an island for the community surrounding a consumer techie video podcast called on10 (we sooo want to take the easier story.. 10 = Microsoft; 10 = sim in SL, ergo OMG MICROSOFT IS INFILTRATING. heh. we bloggers are so cute) was a first start. They are new to SL, and equal to others, will learn and evolve and see opportunities. The conceptual playing field is leveled. It's ethereal and beyond version numbers.

I had a very very short period of time to work with (like three days)... Design for SL is no different in designing anything else. Use whatever works. And with design, it's art, and people will like it or hate it. You just gotta take an 'eh, who cares' approach to criticism.

Anyhow, I spend lots of time evangelizing SL to folks, like the blogosphere and podcasterspheres-- since it's not about what Second Life IS, but what it REPRESENTS.

We are the consumer/producer generation. We do DIY. We collaborate and remix and expand and grow. Multiverse Records started years before I existed in the matrix, and hopefully will exist well beyond. It's a perfect platform to try and revitalize and change the aging music label industry.

So, I'll agree with #2 and #3 :-) however you'd need to add something about revolutionaries. Those of us with berets--- the chameleonistic types- the strike teams that can be gentlemanly, exploratory, revolutionary.

And when we're all done being superstars, we gotta pay it forward. Teach someone else. Most of my Slackstreet sim now is becoming more for-the-community than for me; the Shalida sim is a place to explore new ideas (ie., hiring Rez and Endira to build the conference center), and I'm sure, the many more sims to come after this. There's a world of change coming, and while some of the founding fathers and mothers will be part of that change, so will their descendants.


PS On a side note, as someone who owns 25% of Jessie as a revitalization project, I read over on Hamlet's blog that I live in the same corner as Baccara Rhodes. I'm not even a year old in world, so I had no idea who she was until I pinged her and said hi. This is how it works. We evolve.

Prokofy Neva


I really didn't like the tone of your blog. I'm sure it came about because you didn't like the tone of my blog, either.

You seem to be lecturing me, in this over-confident, embullient tone, as some sort of "youthful force" who is "taking over from the old fogies."

Why? I belong in this world just as much as you do. My RL or SL ages can only partly account for my own sense of belonging and my oqn critique of you and your culture.

And I'm no "founding father or mother" who is hopelessly out of touch or behind the times, because I came to SL in September 2004, long after the early adapters had already taken over and gotten their free 4096s and free sims, and I travel around the world constantly and see and experience a great deal, always trying to find new things.

You seem to have some working picture of yourself and your cohorts as creative, artist, cutting-edge, in the know, at the cusp, etc. and the rest of us needing to "catch up": "There's a world of change coming, and while some of the founding fathers and mothers will be part of that change, so will their descendants."

Some? Who gets to chose? You? How much change? And who gets to contrl it. You? And what army?

I'm sure you obtain a lot of feedback in RL and SL that keeps that picture alive for you of yourself at a cutting edge, leaving those old mothers and fathers behind in the dust.

But other people simply see the world and its evolution and the destructive revolutions swirling around it very differently. It's not just yours. Linden Lab may own it. You and your friends may have ridden the gravy trains to get in with them and get to the top with Microsoft, etc. but it's something far bigger than all of you and all of us and it's *ours, too*.

I use prefabs too. I used all these *exact same* same prefab artists before you were even a gleam in Philip Linden's eye. I'm not against prefabs. *I'm an arranger, too*. It's that kind of place. Not just the technically proficient get to be arrangers, literally, figuratively, financially, technically, personally. We all do.

But I do confess to being confused that something like Microsoft or 10 doesn't commission something grander and more original. I was thinking perhaps it had to do with an actual conscious policy of "working with the natives". But evidently not.

This sort of expression, "We are the consumer/producer generation. We do DIY. We collaborate and remix and expand and grow" -- well, frankly, it just leaves me very cold, this "royal we". It's the kind of inane expression for which your generation apparently wants to be known? Isn't ANY generation a "consumer and producer"? Didn't generations ago, our ancestors um, produce potatoes...and...consume them?

How DIY can it be when you just take everybody else's stuff and remix? This is my problem with the expropriative Marxist-type of ideology of Creative Commons. It's the usual lefty grab from Washington to Moscow. Take from old dead white guys who can't complain. Give to young live brown boys, remix, celebrate then resell it for a fortune. No judgement. No editorial intelligence. "It's all good".

I'm more than 150 percent certain that when you say "we evolve," you mean yourself and people you like and superstars you stumble on that fit your outlook, like Bacarra Rhodes. Not people who don't perceive reality as you do.

But who is "we"? And what is evolution?" I evolve, too. And I'm not "we" with you, and surely your hortatory "we," telling me "like it is," doesn't include me. I'm here to keep affirming that. It's important to keep the world (worlds) free for everyone.

Prokofy Neva

Tony, I think the Harvard and $18000 bit wasn't in an article about Harvard, which is why it's not being found, but it's in an article on CNET, which you may have referenced, about the New Media Consortium, which includes Harvard, in the piece called "Second Life Dreams of Electric Sheep".

My ISP is down and I can't do all the searching I need to do - but this article talks about ESC getting $15,000 to do the NMC private island. I distinctly recall a figure of $18,000 for Harvard mentioned elsewhere in passing but I could very well be wrong. The fact is, something in that range was very likely paid, as indicated in this article.

Prokofy Neva

Eric, and some more thoughts:

1. Paying it forward for the "community". Well, what is the community? They're your likeminded digital artist friends, I guess. The people who are the groovy ones on the groove train, too. Perhaps there's enough of them buying whole islands and doing interesting art that they make up a kind of Provincetown now. I'm thinking that's one what the platform creaking heavily under the weight of "developers" and "users" as the Lindens call them, will get its world back. The aggregate of all of you socializing, going to each others' live music events, sandbox doodles, parties, conferences, etc. will make up a world. It won't be other people's world, just like a West Village or a Provincetown isnt' everybody's world, it's Bohemia, but that's fine, that's normal and it may help the urbanization of SL which is a very provincial and insular and jealous place.

As for this line: "The Microsoft sim (which really, is it REALLY microsoft? It's an island for the community surrounding a consumer techie video podcast called on10 (we sooo want to take the easier story.. 10 = Microsoft; 10 = sim in SL, ergo OMG MICROSOFT IS INFILTRATING. heh. we bloggers are so cute) was a first start. They are new to SL, and equal to others, will learn and evolve and see opportunities. The conceptual playing field is leveled. It's ethereal and beyond version numbers."

Well, I take my cue from my betters, like Tony Walsh, who distinctly described on10.net as Microsoft. Who registered the domain, who pays for the site, and who issues the paychecks for this entity? I mean, this isn't a community of people selling avatar clothing to make a living, it's Microsoft's postcast thingie arm.
I don't think I've misrepresented anything here. MS came to SL *this way,* and it was *no accident, comrade*. It was the logical, and probably effective way. If they had come in and put stores in every mall selling miniature computers with Windows imitations on them and their logo so that avatars could use them as those hand-proppers that people started making and buying in SL to make their inane air-typing more coherent, then it would likely be ineffective -- like the McDonalds' stuff in The Sims Online that sat in the corner with cobwebs, unused, the laughingstock of the whole gaming population because the hamburgers didn't green up the sims' hunger points.

So I'm a sim, and I confess to my hunger points just not greening up on the 10 island. But it's not for everybody. I'm not the demographic it's for. I'm just a crank.

I'm still thinking about the concept of SL as a leveler, or having a conceptually level playing field. Yes and no. In one sense, you're just one more island . One more event on the crowded list. Thousands of people went to play tringo, and didn't come to see your prefab arrangement. In fact, I'm going to help generate more traffic for you, dude, because I tipped off A. Kivioq there that he needed to make the marshmallow *copyable*. You're about to see a tremendous upsurge in traffic just for that. ROFL!

Cienna Rand

I normally don't like to comment, but since I won twice I figured I would have to accept the honor! Thank you!

Prokofy Neva

Oh, did you win BOTH on the Microsoft *and* the Harvard island, Cienna! Congratz! WTG!


I'm still trying to work out what my 'RL job in SL' is and how I managed to win :P

I have absolutely NO skills in programs such as Maya and such - and any small bits and bobs I picked up with photoshop and poser were by reading 'how to' files on the internet and playing around :) I don't even use any 'Second Life Skills' in my real job... and my lack of being in world for more than a couple of hours over the span of a week I guess shows where it's priority is on my list of 'real life things I gotta do'

If I'm known for anything right now in world - it's probably for teaching Second Life how to swim and making swimming in pools possible.

Prokofy Neva

Yes, those are great swimming thingies, I've been meaning to get them and feature them.

Your RL job in SL? Why, the forums, Siggy. The forums. You are in media in RL. And you use that expertise to rule the waves of the forums, too. You've learned that using shock-jock radio talk on the forums, as crude as can be, is a hit every time with Jeska and Torley. Every time! Never been disciplined ONCE.

As for the prefabs that Spin put out -- it doesn't mean that every single person who has a prefab out is the one with the RL in SL -- that's not at all what I said. He's the one with RL in SL, not them. He's the bridge. He's the arranger!


prok, the reason it is important for rez to make the distinction isn't to lessen your arguement. it is because impersonating an architect, or any other professional, is against the regulations of the respective assocations (thus against the law). it's also pretentious.

Prokofy Neva

We already heard about all that. I was already lectured about that. That it's "against the law". Well, that's overstating it quite a bit. The professions in RL have a real hammerlock on things. They didn't always have that hammerlock -- experienced people used to pull teeth or pull out babies without any special licensing. They built buildings, too, without special licenses, and some of them were a lot better looking than the stuff people build with licenses now.

I'm not for overstating all this "illegal" stuff. There isn't some fascistic All-World Society of Architects that will come swooping down on me or Rez and jail us for violating some perceived law.

You may chose to argue about this inanely for days if you like. Being against regulations of professional societies, i.e. pretending you're a lawyer when you aren't, can get you fined, exposed, even made the target of a more serious law suit. But usually, to reach the test of litigation, it would have to involve some damages somewhere -- tort. Saying you're an architect in a virtual world is not going to get you arrested, no fear there.


yes, if you tend towards pedantic absurdity, what you say is perfectly fine.


Well of course you overlook the fact that I'm not in radio - nor a DJ - so I guess your 'shock jock' analogy falls flat on it's face... Moreover in the media I work with images and sound, not writing - so it doesn't work from that angle either.. even for you Prok - thats a pretty wild wild stretch. If you have to reach that far to make some kind of speculation, don't you think you may be on the wrong track?

and I'll put to you what I put to cocopants.....

.... It's public knowledge that I've been received a warning before (so there goes your primary assertion up in smoke) - but beyond that I'll leave to your speculation.

Alas - a lack of evidence doesn't make a speculation fact, just ask Ikarus about that.

Prokofy Neva

Gosh, you're doing a literalist tekkie thing again, Siggy. Of course it's exactly the right analogy. Shock-jock is foul mouthed talk on the radio. On the forums, that's just what you engage on. It doesn't matter if you're in TV in RL, the point is, you understand media and you know exactly what you're doing to influence the public discourse, put your stamp on something, and keep control over it.

It's interesting that you're now telling us, after bragging on the forums so often about being "in media" that you don't write the copy or narrate, but move the pictures around on an editing machine. Very different kind of work -- but still influential. And still a perch from which to understand media.

I find it interesting that some of the worst forums abusers like Weedy and you have something to do with broadcast media. And those fighting your undue influence and impunity on the forums have experience in print media (Cocoanut and me) as well as broadcast media (me).


interesting theory prok. your were a forum abuser and you are also involved in media. i do see the pattern too.


So we can say your RL job in SL is writing these far fetching conspiracy theories?

Whats your place on the list?

And as for the rest - I've always said that I work in TV News - and have always said that I'm a photojournalist and editor.

Which means I go out and get the stories and then do all the production work to put them on air.

So yes - I am in the media.

But saying thats my 'RL job in SL' and saying that it applies to the forums - man that is a stretch.. nearly as far a stretch as saying you and Coco are 'fighting the good fight'


And once more for the hard of reading:

A lack of evidence - which by the way is against your precious SL Forum guidelines to post anyways - as to disciplinary action doesn't automatically equate to proof of 'impunity' - of course you'll choose to skip over it, but I'm reiterating the point for your viewers, who the point won't be lost on.

Prokofy Neva

I don't think it's a stretch at all. I think it explains a lot.

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