Happy Bastille Day! Resident Government

Friday Night Discussion Meeting at the Sutherland Dam on the economy.

Notice:

Yesterday Thinkers and Robin Linden met to discuss resident governance/government in Neualtenberg. Read threads here and transcript here: Last month, 8 selected SL residents met with LL staff in SF to discuss governance. And where were you? You thought no one would ever make a resident government, or at least not without you? You'd be wrong! So if you *don't* want resident government, you better get organizing. If you are concerned about what it means to leave it to a handful of elites, then be prepared to recognize that only creating alternatives can mitigate the inevitability: the Lindens wish to organize a coded system of governance, put it into the patch, and walk away -- but not by giving up any power or open-sourcing the client, but more like letting inworld resmonds take over. What is to be done? Let's discuss making a landowners' senate or assembly of community assocations from sims.

Desmond Shang: hi Prok!
You: Hi
You: Come inside
Desmond Shang: wah, this is the *first* time I've ever come to anything :)
You: well Desmond I would highly recommend reading the Thinkers' transcript
You: yes well spend 5 minutes on it at least
You: lol
You: I know you ahve a government already and run it
You: and guess what
Quinstar Gremlin: off
Clubside Granville: ooops, better do that myself
Desmond Shang: meh, I'm nobody :)
You: you will have a clickable ad on the website to say "press here to come to Desmond's humorously autocratic but

delightfully Steampunked Victorian Experience! Expect to be Enchanted!"
Desmond Shang: wah?
You: or you will get an ad space bought by some other group "TP to Tropika, 30 lashes of my whip for free, housing provided!"
You: Desmond
You: those are in the library dude
Desmond Shang: mmm?
You: are you new?
Desmond Shang: yeah, kinda
You: you bought my flamingos
Desmond Shang: *sheepish grin*
You: they are just a sort of protest
Desmond Shang: I did!
You: come in
Desmond Shang: lovely home :)
You: Yesterday at Thinkers Robin presented an idea as if new
You: of having social systems put ads or links on the SL website
You: well this is sort of like the idea they had to have websites outside of LL put up registration keys
You: you could rez newbies into your sim that way
You: and they will probably do that
You: they had a trial of that
You: but this is sort of more elaborate
Clubside Granville: a few people seem to be spamming SL Answers about resident police being recognized as well
You: they want people to make governments on sims so they have less work I guess
Falk Bergman: hehe
Falk Bergman: rez newbies ;)
You: yes well I love how people want resident police without any government first, with 3 branches, checks and balances, and

civilian control over said police
Desmond Shang: resident police?
You: well spawn?
You: I call it rezzing newbies
You: they sort of appear
Desmond Shang: gah! I have to log T_T
Clubside Granville: There are a few Desmond, search Groups... now some want recognition and Live Help type powers it seems
Falk Bergman: i like the term
Desmond Shang: that sounds awful
You: yes they want the power to return prims, even remove content from events list
You: of course it sounds awful
You: but it is popular
Desmond Shang: I really wanted to stay... forgive pls, must go T_T
You: the thing is whether what they are cooking up now is infact a resmod inworld system
You: kk
Sponge Morrison: ao off
You: Hi sponge
You: hi Pepper
Sponge Morrison: Hello Everyone
Pepper Plasma: hello
You: well before you get to the issue of police spanning sims
Pepper Plasma: this is my friend Sponge my main model :)
You: look at what they first actually discuss
You: which is sim owners having the power to do governance
You: which they do anyway
You: but then using new tools
You: to link up with others
You: so you have meta groups of owners spanning sims with rulesets
You: so if this were limited to things like "let's not have ugly spinning signs in the air shall we?"
You: it could work
You: but it could also be "let's ban all the people we hate from the forums, shall we?"
You: of course the Lindens want it to be that way
You: they want to sign off
Clubside Granville: Sorry, haven't finished reading... is any of this implied by the 1.12 covenant feature?
You: in part it is but that's only for private islands
You: most of the governance discussion yesterday was about mainland
You: and mainland doesn't have the covenant tool
You: the only covenant it could have is with Daniel Linden
You: but ultimately they want Group Tools 2.0
You: where you make up a set of rules, people buy into it or rent into it
Falk Bergman: i'm kinda suprised how hard they push the group tools
You: I keep raising the issues list that can't be affected by mainland covenants, like 16 m2 extortion
You: well they see it as a salvation of the mainland
Falk Bergman: they put a lot of stuff off just to get group tools out faster
You: Philip especially sees it that way
Clubside Granville: At least Selador has his typical short "no" response... one oldbie there!
You: well Falk you could also look at it another way
You: they stopped doing all these flexible tails and stuff tekkies and designers like
You: and listened to what other sectors wanted which they ahve asked for, for at least a year
You: if not 3
You: more control of land parcles and groups, and getting rid of the hippie communes in the group tools
You: nothing wrong with that, it's good
You: but they do want that to be the governance, and to confer upon it rather magic powers
Clubside Granville: The group tools sure are nice in the sense of "why weren't they there like this two years ago" nice like

on other systems
You: totally, I'm glad there are no officers to sell out my land now, and tenants can now deed TVS in theory
You: all to the good, if they will un buggy
Clubside Granville: The Merczateers group was destroyed by the very scenario you described... one officer abandoned their HQ
You: I haven't been very enthusiastic about that group frankly.
Clubside Granville: just an example, sorry... one reason I don't group my land
You: but that doesn't mean their group should be destroyed in that method
You: with that flaw
You: of course we're in for some fun with the problem I mentioned too about the dead or absentee or deleted owners/founders

of groups when the new tools kick in
You: only the owner/founder can confer powers
You: I'm waiting to check that out more
You: did you follow that Clubside?
Clubside Granville: yes... as one person noted to me when I reported a 16m2 plot was owned by a seemingly dead av because
Clubside Granville: they were no longer in their listed groups
You: that was a decidedly wierd thing going on with Schwanson and there is more than meets the eye in that story
You: he is back in all those groups
You: but there are many long-gone owners
Clubside Granville: I saw... though I was more suprised to see a whole sim connected to the mainland with his name... sorry,

don't mean to derail
You: Falk, what do you think about a landowners' senate? Because it strikes me that is what governance in fact will be, if

based on sim owners.
Sponge Morrison: was this land in "Bombyx"
Clubside Granville: seems not too mny people showed up from that transcript
You: well some people get to have whole sims connected to the mainland, what can I tell you there are some
You: perhaps 30 who can fit, some didn't talk
You: not even
Falk Bergman: hmmmm
Falk Bergman: a senate
You: well they don't think of the act of harmonizing rule sets with other groups as a senate
Falk Bergman: I would think it would be hard to actually get everybody together at the same time
You: they think people will fly over the voids and meet and click on tools and go back to their pose balls
Falk Bergman: maybe a landowners forum
You: but in fact, it's a senate
Clubside Granville: doesn't seem like anything in there was too enthusiastically received
You: well it doesn't have to be in real time
You: it can be a forums or a group IM or all kinds of things
You: but those that have already worked this and created bodies with rules like Neualtenberg will be fastest out of the

starting gate
Falk Bergman: a forum would be best - IMs are still lossy
Falk Bergman: I agree with that
You: every time a discussion about governance happens, everyone says, why, they've already done that, they are a model
Sponge Morrison: Hey guys sorry to be disrespectful but me and Pepper have some stuff going on that needs finishing is it ok

if we leave?
You: I can tell you that there is a group governed by the 500 people on the group IM every day, all day
You: can you guess which one?
You: of course
You: come any time
You: lol
Sponge Morrison: heh
You: not disrespectful, this is SL
You: you just fly around and perch
You: we're birds
Sponge Morrison: its been a pleasure listening
Clubside Granville: Which group is this Prok?
You: Group?
You: well it's just a regular discussion club on the afternoons
You: I have 2 events every week, one on the economy, one on politics
You: and all the groups are invited
Falk Bergman: ah
Clubside Granville: no, the one you asked us to guess...lol
You: Mainlanders is one group, another is Doers
Falk Bergman: American economy i take it
You: ohhhh
You: ok guess!
Clubside Granville: I never see that sort of membership volume so I really have no point of reference
You: Ok well I'll tell you
You: It's not Ravenglass though it could be
You: mainly beacuse I try to spare people group spam
You: they hate that
You: it's Dreamland
You: Anshe chung's list
You: and every day all day
You: people decide things like "should we allow security orbs? should we have red ban lines?"
Clubside Granville: oh, thankfully as a full sim renter I'm not in that one... or I guess I should be thankful
You: "Should we all ban our friends' rival from the store areas>?"
Clubside Granville: related to her thems and covenants I guess
You: well you think Neualtenberg governs because they're the socialists
You: Anshe Chung has more public democracy and participation that Nberg
You: huge numbers of people
You: She comes on herself sometimes
You: mainly her overlords run it
Falk Bergman: Prokofy: i think a group with that many members would carry itself even in a lossy enviroment - however groups

with fewer members might have a greater signaloss
You: a lot of thigns are decided by the tenants tho
Clubside Granville: I never followed the foundation of Neualtenberg, and thought I read that it had "failed" but I certainly

could just be hoping I read that
You: there's nothing lossy Falk
You: because without any tools it self-limits
You: it picks its 5 issues:
You: 1) lag
You: 2) prims
You: 3) views
You: 4) griefing/bannings
You: 5) dogs on the beach
You: that's it
You: nothing else
You: limited government
Falk Bergman: 5) --- Profit!
Falk Bergman: Profit ;)
You: ok I made that one up
You: but 5 is fill in the blanks
You: Caledon is a little bit like that
You: but Desmond doesn't spam up chat as much
You: but it's all decided in secret cabals in the map room
You: too bad he isn't here to describe it
You: he has a steward system that rotates
You: they make ban/lag/reset/grief etc decisions
Falk Bergman: hmmm
You: So this is all good
Clubside Granville: Is part of this discussion of a NEED for democracy, mainland or otherwise? I guess I certainly wouldn't

look for that unless pricing structures changed... to next to nothing
You: but what SL also needs is another set of issues of governance: 1) theft of IP 2) injustice of LL 3) business libel; 4)

property destruction; 5) dogs on the beach
You: and it's those 5 that LL doesn't want anyone to govern
You: but they let something else govern those 5 things then:
Clubside Granville: property destruction? how would you define tht in SL terms?
You: a) ugly forums; b) abusive police c) boycotts; d) destruction of property; e) mafias
You: Destruction of property through prim bomb attacks displacing and delinking objects and houses
You: devaluation of property
You: changing of borders or things like the telehub take-out
Falk Bergman: 1) theft - agree 2) injustice - a appelate court system? 3) ya fraud should be punished
You: all that is property destruction
Clubside Granville: the only example I was thinking of was invisiprim coating... do bombs actually ever de-link sets?
You: yes they do in a group
You: it's a hugely annoying problem
You: I fight it several times a week
Clubside Granville: hmmm... physics have to be on the objects affected?
Falk Bergman: 4) kinda hard to define - prim bombs should be fixable with simply returning stuff to their owner
You: it has nothing to do with physics
Tom Bukowski: Hello all!
Clubside Granville: Howdy Tom
You: in a group, when the sim is overloaded with prims from fire prims, they first things to return to inventory are the

owners' objects, then the group set objects, etc
You: so they all start flying back to inventory, delinking, being ruined
Falk Bergman: ah
Tom Bukowski notes this is a *stunning* build
Falk Bergman: that sounds more like a technical problem
You: there doesn't seem to be a routing in the program that says "destroy invader prim first and return that before you

return these paying tenants dammit"
You: Falk, it's one that is political because no one cares about it
Falk Bergman: the build is quite nice ;)
Clubside Granville: oh, I was thinking it from direct object-to-object reaction... I understand
You: If I lose 10 tenants and a build of $100 US they don't care
You: you call it a technical problem, I call it a property destruction problem
You: this sort of thing makes people leave SL
You: the loss of builds on sims is a common enough problem that it has cause people to leave
You: or sell or tier down
You: what you have never heard of this problem?
You: It's now hit me 6 times in the last year
Clubside Granville: Does anyone find the "mafias" of (5) more or less involved in all the griefer hysteria of late?
You: it's devastating to lose an entire sim of builds, tenants, structures, prims
You: all returned, all delinked, all MISSING
You: I had one that was missing for weeks
You: then came back one by one for weeks later
Falk Bergman: not really - I live quietly just visiting a few events and build books the rest of the time
You: Ok well talk to any major land owner or club or business
Falk Bergman: working with ll on a nice info billboard system
You: they all have this awful fate happen to them
You: is this in competition with Infonet?
Clubside Granville: I've seen the mafias less and less perosnally is why I asked
You: No they are as active as eveer
Falk Bergman: so the only fix is totally blocking all prim rezzes?
You: The fix is rolling back mainland sims which they refuse to do.
Tom Bukowski: I was just talking to someone about mafias today, asking if they are less common here than in TSO or not...
You: The fix is some routine that doesn't let non-group-set invaders displace group-set
You: no they are more common
You: they have more reality to work with, with money, porn, call girls, etc
You: because LL has no justice system, mafias take care of the problem of libel and theft and disputes
Clubside Granville: back to the list from the top... with (1) theft, are we breaking it into the parts (copying moddable

builds), texture stealing, etc. or dealing with it as a whole?
You: Falk what sort of billboard? I'm curious because I always have these debates with people who hate billboards and want to

kill them.
You: theft as a whole
Falk Bergman: ah its xytext based
Gonta Maltz: how are they different from any other griefing group?
Falk Bergman: not an ad billboard
You: Organized
Clubside Granville: 16m sq billboards? like the chinese 3-prim dude?
Tom Bukowski: whew, lol
Gonta Maltz: But that's not to say they can't be ar'ed
You: they are families, networks, they have their own detectives, they have back-up firepower, they have methods of coercion
You: not just random flying kids
Falk Bergman: its basically planned to be used in places where html on prim sn't needed
You: OK, you work on AR'ing them.
You: Meanwhile I have to work on preventing destruction of property.
Falk Bergman: or not efficent enought
You: I refuse to accept their protection offers.
Falk Bergman: it costs mem and fps
You: yes yes
You: I wondered if xytext cuold handle that
You: everyone said well web on a prim will make this unnecessary
You: but why?
Falk Bergman: the new version can
You: don't we need whiteboarding?
Falk Bergman: Prof: html on prim incurs a performance hit
You: well quite a bit of time yesterday was spent on discussing justice systems
You: should LL appoint judges? should residents?
Clubside Granville: we need whiteboarding an in-system voice... two things that SL is years behind the curve in terms of

collaboration
You: yes Falk html on a prim scares me
Falk Bergman: it might end up like QT where people need to click to activate a browser
Falk Bergman: so html links are not called automagically when you enter a region
Falk Bergman: anyway
You: oh hell no don't do that
You: yikes
Clubside Granville: I don't know Falk, I always assumed like hovertext a mozilla-on-a-prim page would stay rexxed in its

current view for all
You: then you'll have to turn them off to fly like you do with streaming video some days
Falk Bergman: parcel is full
Falk Bergman: ;)
You: who here ever uses the voting page?
Falk Bergman: otherwise i would rez on
You: is that a viable form of governance?
You: could you make disputes on a web page?
You: some advocated that
Quinstar Gremlin: Feature Voting? I do
You: once you have html on a prim perhaps people will do this
Tom Bukowski: Argh - I gotta shift rl locations, I'll log back on in about 15 mins - if someone can save the chat for me that

would be great. cya in a bit!
Tom Bukowski is offline
You: kk
Gonta Maltz: I'll save log
Gonta Maltz: or well, copy paste I guess
Clubside Granville: not as its designed, and I'm afraid SL is lacking in so many areas that you can't build a consensus on

root/core tech issues with end-user needs in the way
Falk Bergman: ok i will attach one to my head
Falk Bergman: don't laught
Gonta Maltz: there's always going to be infinite room for improvement
ANGELA Evans is online
June Cela is online
Billboard (4 lines, 30 chars): Please tell me what Line 2 should contain?
Falk Bergman: This line says Hello!
You: Hell no we won't go
You: hehe
You: hey I need this!
Falk Bergman: haha
You: : )
Falk Bergman: old version
Clubside Granville: You're right Gonta, but thingslike Havok 4 and a decent scripting core roll up while most voting

proposals roll down
You: can I buy one?
You: lol
You: I have the old one but it didn't work as fast
You: unless my new computer is faster
Falk Bergman: nono
You: I need one that has the pictures AND the text AND the landmark
Falk Bergman: this is based on xytext 1.2
Falk Bergman: it uses only 1 texture
Can't create object because
the parcel is full.
Falk Bergman: anyway the real trick is that I made a spiffy php based webinterface to update several billboards at once
Falk Bergman: so announcements can easily be added
You: cool
Falk Bergman: anyway back to the regular scheduled programm
You: well this is all part of governance
Clubside Granville: There are a bunch of neat XML RPC things out there... the public StarGate system comes to mind
Falk Bergman: i can give you a copy of one of the open ones
You: you can't govern if you can't have laws and rules in texts people can edit
You: this notecard stuff is for the birds
Falk Bergman: ya
You: for example, a simple thing
Falk Bergman: i agree
You: I'd like to have the feed of the police blotter in world
You: by topic
You: by tag
Falk Bergman: notecards suck
You: and with memory
You: and with alternative resident police blottering
Falk Bergman: Profky: i can do that
You: because clearly the Lindens don't post all the incidents
You: well please do
Falk Bergman: I have all sorts of feeds piped to the billboards
You: it's a meaningless device until it has memory
Clubside Granville: storing HTML in-world as well as outside would be the easy and ideal replacement for notecards
You: until I can go in a sim and see does this have a crime rate?
You: think of making a Chicago crime hot spots map
You: with the map API
You: showing the police blotter
You: think if you could get the police blotter from sims before buying
You: but most of all
Falk Bergman: That would be cool
You: see where your dam AR's go
Clubside Granville: If we could get a police blotter with less forum issues and more in-world ones
You: we know they go mainly nowhere
You: well forums issues are just jags they have every 5 weeks
You: there is a wierd cycle to it
You: it's very very uneven
You: one week it's all indecency
You: the next it's all 'parcel encroachment"
You: they waste space on it by having a group of griefers each individually described
You: I had invisiprim theft happen to me
You: and the guy is now gone from the list
You: but no police blotter
You: why?
You: he stole rent from me and tenants
Falk Bergman: hmmm
You: on a dozen boxes using an invisiprim
You: I got a notice "your AR is resolved"
You: no blotter, but the guy gone from the list
Falk Bergman: it might me that the police blotter system isn't really integrated
You: well one of them in duo, the other is at large
Clubside Granville: so based on Gwyneth Llewelyn part of the transcript (and its long making it hard to sift) much of the

discussion was making super-group powers that mimiced government rather than a global mainland government?
You: Falk it isn't a FULL list
You: which is why we need to follow up on that guy's forum concept of alternative blotters
Falk Bergman: so you can ban somebody without entering stuff in the blotter
You: recording the AR's people file
You: now watch what will happen with that
You: Lindens will declare it "disclosure"
You: but we should try it
Falk Bergman: erm
You: for that we need a feed
Falk Bergman: simply do it anonymously - I mean do it in a way that cannot be tied to a SL av
Clubside Granville: until they cave on releasing names... why would they even pursure gov't when they won't do that?
You: Club they won't allow naming names on forums
You: in world they are divided in their policing of that
You: sometimes they do
Clubside Granville: I mean on Police Blotter
You: oh that they are held hostage by one view
You: they say they have to have privacy
You: of course, it gives no privacy
Clubside Granville: So how can they have a proper government?
You: everyone knows that if one forums event happens, and one person isn't posting, who it is
You: well they can't
You: but who says they want a proper government?
Clubside Granville: lol
You: read the Thinkers meeting
Falk Bergman: who says they can really enforce one
You: Robin said to me very clearly: Prokofy, you ideas that we can have a government can't be implemented because this is a

company"
You: they drop all that world stuff when they have to
Falk Bergman: ya
Clubside Granville: I'm trying... Gwyneth Llewelyn started it down one track then it, as always, whent everywhere, making it

hard to follow
You: well it always does
Falk Bergman: but what do you supposed they do? they are a company after all - its the same crap the Internet is in
You: because they just have everyone speak out and don't use the soapbox they invented
You: they don't do Roberts' Rules
Falk Bergman: do you remember ICANN Members at large?
You: wel Falk
Sonofa Fritch: boo hoo
Sonofa Fritch: poor me
You: We are partners to this company.
You: We provide some of the income.
Falk Bergman: ya very nice sonofa fitch
You: We are not chopped liver here.
Gonta Maltz: we're customers, there's a difference
You: Sonofa I have 0 tolerance of event griefing
Avatar ejected.
Falk Bergman: we are customers and in a way resource and in another way even employees
You: well you are Falk
Clubside Granville: that's why I commented earlier than any pursual of government would need to be coupled with drastic price

reductions unless it's voluntary and thus worthless
You: I'm a serf and quit-renter
Falk Bergman: its all tangled up
You: you are an employee, yes
You: well why drastic?
Falk Bergman: well my pay is crappy ;)
You: Kenny Linden explains it all: there is ALWAYS another guy to buy the island.
You: ALWAYS
You: I'll bet your pay is better than mine, Falk.
You: Well we are something like serfs or employees
You: so we should have more say really
You: I would think of it more like partners
Falk Bergman: well I make enough to pay my ISP bill (wich i could not pay otherwise)
Crystal Lameth is online
You: some of these big entities like Anshe or Azure should have that status
Falk Bergman: so I'm glad for that
Falk Bergman: but the billboard thing really is more a subproject for the community team
Falk Bergman: no real funding
You: well I paid my ISP bill and went out to a fancy restaurant for a friend's birthday with my SL winnings...erm I mean

earnings.
Falk Bergman: I make my money mostly with non-linden stuff
You: It's kind like a lottery or a casino.
Falk Bergman: ya
Falk Bergman: here
Falk Bergman: thats the latest book i converted
You: well Falk if you are getting a contract from LL, and will be involved in world-making
Falk Bergman: thats what i get payed for mostly
You: why can't you have a say in the police blotter?
You: or features?
You: or anything?
You: why?
You: why can't any of us?'
You: even a 512 owner
You: even companies have things like sub-committees for disputes
Gonta Maltz: esablished companies
You: Falk what do you think of Sl Views?
Clubside Granville: So much would be easier to make head or tails from if their "vision" didn't shift from what I saw at

sign-up and what I see in the upgrade/bug-fic path
You: They didn't pick you.
You: But they might!
You: what is the upgrade/bug-fic path?
Falk Bergman: sl views?
You: the 8 people going to SF for a day of talks?
Clubside Granville: when we see the list of updates and bug-fixes they are all over the map
Falk Bergman: ahhh
Clubside Granville: no obvious path of where they are going feature-wise
Falk Bergman: I didn't follow that
Falk Bergman: been busy
You: well is that because they have distributive decision making and the BLOTDD approach?
You: they don't have a top-down master plan?
You: something gets done, they throw it up
Falk Bergman: ya
Falk Bergman: thats how it happens ;)
You: hmm
Clubside Granville: I guess it's hard to fathom any company getting VC money with no top-down plan these days
You: well that's because they have people to fund it like that
Falk Bergman: as a developer i know thats how it usually work ;)
You: if they didn't have people to fund it like that, they couldn't go on doing that : )
You: I know if I do it that way, I don't get funding : )
Falk Bergman: the problem with predetermined top down plans are that they don't allow for much flexibility and you need to

actually know what your goals are
You: well who says they have to lurch to extremes?
You: they can have participatory management
Falk Bergman: by goals i don't mean "make profit"
You: most modern places have lots of feedback and input
You: teams working with independence but with a set of goals from management
You: it is not a company from the 1930s
Falk Bergman: Prokofy: i think they have - its just not formalized
Clubside Granville: from the transcript were you saying that Azure Islands has certain powers/features that Anshe doesn't?
You: The question to ask about their love-pat system is whether it works, if it works, it justifies itself.
You: how do you mean?
Falk Bergman: its trickeling down into LL
You: they have the same powers on islands
You: they decide more or less rights for tenants, so terms may differ
Clubside Granville: [16:26] Prokofy Neva: some like Azure Islands get to have this and advertise they have this; others like

Anshe Chung don't have it and don't get answers about getting to have it
You: but of course Azure has had some favouritism
You: yes well Azure gets the void sims 4 pack first
You: they just get it
You: then Anshe gets wind of it and demands it
You: doesn't get it
You: then they make it a "feature"
You: Azure has Ben Linden work for $50/hour for 20 hours to build 4 shopping sims.
You: Well, Anshe didn't think to hire Ben I guess LOL.
Clubside Granville: Thanks, that's what I wanted to know related to how they pic "favorites"
You: Clubside, if I knew how they picked favourites, I might BE a favourite.
You: lol
Clubside Granville: lol
You: But I don't wish to be.
You: I think we should have equal opportunities
You: Did you notice that group tools is in 1.12
You: and the current patch is 1.11 something
Falk Bergman: no
You: and the next patch isn't 1.12
You: but 1.11.6
Falk Bergman: 11 got pushed back
You: so we could have 1.11.7
Clubside Granville: Yes, and I hope that by putting up options/designs/user-interfce screenshots that they can see many good

suggestions
You: or endlessly get to 1.12 by Xenon's paradox
Clubside Granville: rather than blindly guessing from the voring system or forum rants
You: well a patch went in yesterday
You: it's all grey squares still
You: the voting system is funny, they pay a lot of attention to it sometimes
Falk Bergman: prokofy, i think they run 2 preview grids to be able to get those features in here faster
You: then they ignore other things
You: well it's good they are running them
You: all good
Falk Bergman: the group tools are important so they want to extra test them
You: I'm just laughing at how they may not get to it tho
You: hell yeah
You: I'm very scared about them actually
Clubside Granville: yes, Falk, I was told because of how they merge code 1.11 and 1.12 had to sit on different grids
You: I've seen some aspects of the buggyness
You: all it takes is one glitch where one person I've made officer thinking he can't sell land
You: then it's a disaster
You: I do not want to wake up to that
You: in fact I dread making this transition that I lobbied for, for a year
Falk Bergman: well then do something about it - go out there to the .12 preview and help out with testing
You: it's a huge management nightmare
You: I am doing that Falk.
You: I AM testing it.
Falk Bergman: ;)
You: I AM filing bugs
You: but that's not giong to cut it
You: I don't have power over bugs or programming
Clubside Granville: That's one of the reasons I was curious about the default powers granted to the three exitsting roles

(Founder/Officer/Member) when groups get "upgraded"
Falk Bergman: lets hope it will be enough
You: no matter how perfect it is, it's a huge management transition disaster
You: it will cost weeks
You: I was expecting something simpler frankly.
You: It is very very complex, all the multiple menus, toggles, rights
You: they had to do that to satisfy everybody and that's good
You: let's hope it works
You: wb Tom
Tom Bukowski apologizes for his absence...
Tom Bukowski: ty
Falk Bergman: well is there an alternative? do you think it will be possible to do huge fundamental changes in the way one

part of SL works with smal incremental changes?
Clubside Granville: It's actually only about 60% of the group features I have for console games, Prok... mostly the interface

needs a redesign
You: yes interface is sucky
You: interface is not their strong suit
You: but that's ok
You: they can fix that later
You: what worries me
You: is that before, anyone could click, join my gruop
You: put out prims, rent, build, do their thing
You: now, I have a problem
You: do I make them tenant with full deeding tv rights?
You: do I confer to them prim removal rights?
You: what if they are assholes who remove OTHER people's prims?
You: etc
Falk Bergman: ya
You: each person now needs a custom job
Clubside Granville: I haven't checked some things... like I would think you set "join for free" assigns them to this role,

even "join for L$ to get a different role"
You: and that's good for all these utopian furry things like Lusk or the socialists
Falk Bergman: scripting logic might help here
You: they love endlessly figuring out configurations for the 40 people in their group
You: it's so much fun playing government
You: but I have 600 people
You: other big owners have 1000s
Falk Bergman: somebody with a CC info on file might get more rights than a total freebie
You: I don't care about the CC on file
You: Lindens are on file with me
You: that's good enough
You: Lindens don't stink
You: lol
You: but the problem is, will they push all the prims? some?
You: will they make a ban list that can ban me?
You: see I tried to make it so I had owner/tenants
You: tenants were given powers to ban
You: that's vital
You: so they don't drive me nuts
Clubside Granville: Scripting may be the answer as in they click your rental sign in adds them to the group at a certain role
You: all night long I run around fixing lists
Falk Bergman: have you ever met harry linden? he is a pig!
You: but what if they ban their next door neighbours' from their own land because they hate them?
Falk Bergman: :D
You: yes
You: he's a hedgehog
You: not a pig
Falk Bergman: ah
You: big diference!
Falk Bergman: my bad ;)
Clubside Granville: lol
You: ezhik
You: in Russia, a beloved animal
You: anyway I started rethinking my grandiose concept
You: of making all tenants officers
Falk Bergman: in german they are called spiked pig
You: first I thought, I'll make new employees officers
You: then I wanted to push the ools
You: see the problem with people in games
You: they burn through content
You: you give them new stuff, they just want to push them and break them
You: I want to push those new tools to see can I give everyone all the rights but sales
You: and it's not parcel-based
Clubside Granville: That's what us being live beta-testers paying for the privilege is all about lol
You: perhaps I will come aruond to agreeing wit Tiger Crossing if in fact that's what she wanted
You: well I'm thinking surely tv deeding can't hurt
You: but
You: what if they UNDEED group deeding money-taking objects and steal them?
Clubside Granville: I still want parcel-media only gone...
Falk Bergman: I want per object media!
Clubside Granville: need universal media player that can tune into local playlist, parcel playlist, and global playlist
Keely Lawson is online
You: I am so tired of media.
You: I want them to watch media in RL.
You: LOL.
Clubside Granville: I'm listening to the Predator commentary track as it is
You: yes somebody else wanted all parcels to have all lists
You: You know, they are also showing a great predilection for muting and whiting out people.
Clubside Granville: just the ability to stay "immersive", an avatar player that could maintain the media stream without using

an external player
You: I find that really an awful concept.
You: but you have that now Club
You: you just play an SL radio or URl changer
Clubside Granville: yes, on an external player
Clubside Granville: not if I want to explore and keep the in-game player
Falk Bergman: with per object streams easy Voice to voice communication could be realized
Clubside Granville: again, that's just immersion
Clubside Granville: voice can be done real easy Falk, they have to get past the anonynimity hurdle that Philip mentioned
Falk Bergman: ya
Clubside Granville: as long as they are hung up on that we lose out
Falk Bergman: tho communication on the internet is really not anonymous
Clubside Granville: I come from the Xbox Live world, we could be having this same discussion there in a lobby by voice right

now
Falk Bergman: I'm not sure if discussions are better handled by voice
Falk Bergman: its faster true
Falk Bergman: but anyway its 2am here
Falk Bergman: I need to sleep
You: ok
You: thanks for coming Falk
You: is that board on sale?
Tom Bukowski: cu later falk
You: I can't rez the one I have the parcel's full
Falk Bergman: prok: can you call me up if you still want a billboard?
You: yes I do
Falk Bergman: they take up quite a few prims
Clubside Granville: Well, Prok has mentioned huge groups, I was a co-founder of a 1200 person clan and the leaders would meet

in a lobby to deiscuss issues and it was much easier I cn tell you
You: I need to type HELL NO I WON"T GO in the sky regularly
You: : )
Falk Bergman: 5 lines are 65 chars take 36 prims
You: what made it easier Club?
You: ok
You: see, limits on dictators
Clubside Granville: just like talking to friends in real life
Falk Bergman: i cvan make any combination
You: they are 36-prim dictators
Falk Bergman: ;)
You: they can say 5 lines
Falk Bergman: ya
Falk Bergman: i could add scroll arrows
Quinstar Gremlin: have to go elsewhere. thanks for holding the discussion group, Prof
Clubside Granville: It's easier because you don't backspace over yourself, you can hear tone and inflection
You: well I need stuff about rentals more than anything
Falk Bergman: or add more lines its modular
You: kk
You: I will IM you soon then
Falk Bergman: ;)
Michael Hatfield is online
You: oh
You: do you mind if this transcript is published on my blog?
Falk Bergman: just tell me your specs the LL build boards are kinda specilized for web-control
Falk Bergman: not at all
You: becdause Desmond and others asked for it
You: anyone else here?
You: mind?
Clubside Granville: well, we're wa off th government track... anything in particular you could point to from that transcript

that's worth exploring?
Tom Bukowski: I didn't say much so fine with me lol
Tom Bukowski: sorry about that
Falk Bergman: bye
You: club what made the 1,200 guild different?
Clubside Granville: It was so large and since there was a cap of 100 users per "clan"
Clubside Granville: we had to have leaders spread out with the equivilent of "alts" or else trust each other and talk out

issues
Clubside Granville: plan matches, update websites
You: well was there a limited set of issues tho?
You: in a game it can be limited
You: like quests and powers and such
You: here it is more complex
Clubside Granville: we had to deal with griefers, cheaters, people not showing up to matches, it was surely less but there

was an easy way to work it out
You: wel texture theft?
You: business libel?
Clubside Granville: check things while going, and for conversation to flow
You: Lindens' injustice?
Bub Linden is offline
Clubside Granville: same with something like Halo 2... a patch chaged the way weapons were balanced...discuss

Comments

[Cocoanut]

Dang! Missed another one of these.

coco

[Kyrah Abattoir]

could you clean your transcripts one day? considering the time you waste writing your other posts you could spend the time to cut the useless lines and go straight to the point you want to prove?

if you like wasting time, waste yours and let us read a summary

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

Great discussion! It was a pity I had it overlapped with other meetings at the same time. Still, I think it was a good recap on all issues about the new Linden-imagined "jurisdictions/communities/virtual-countries-inside-the-virtual-world" model.

The most important thing I see about this model is that it's targeted for the mainland. If it's well done, the whole concept of "estates" can be applied to large landmasses on the mainland, thus making "private islands" not such a big deal any more.

Sadly, I have not been so lucky with beta-testing the new group tools on the Preview — for some reason, I can't buy any land there. It might have been a glitch tied to my account somehow, but the truth is, I wasn't able to test the new groups fully yet. So it's hard to understand how far you can go with them once you're able to tie them with a sign-up from the website that drops a new "member" into your "community".

Naturally enough, I welcome this new system, as far as it was explained. It's a bit early to understand exactly what will happen to make this go *wrong*, specially if you're always allowed NOT to belong to ANY "community".

[Cocoanut]

Wait a minute . . . is there some system coming along that makes us belong to a community?

coco