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08/10/2006

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Baba

I'm one of those platform people. I believe in the Second Life platform.

The bug that broke the wand or the patch that fixed the problem your tennants had with prim grief has very little to do with the platform.

The thing I imagine happened was that Linden Lab tried to fix one bug and broke something else. They probably did not mean to do it, but programming is hard. That doesn't excuse the fact that they broke a feature, but furthering the platform had little to do with it.

Cocoanut

Now wait. Baba, I thought the temp-on-rez thing was undone on PURPOSE, supposedly because people were abusing it.

I believed that the temp-on-rez thing was something that allowed owners to put a vendor on their property to show, say, houses. I was thinking eventually I would get one so that the customer could click on the box, and a temporary house would rez, despite my prim limits. (Then disappear.)

So I believe they made this no longer work on purpose. And one of the side effects of it was that things like the wand would no longer work if a sim was already full.

Therefore I do not believe that the reason Starax's wand broke was not a bug, but the fact that they were tired of people putting things out on temp-rez.

I followed all that fairly well, and I don't recall reading anything that would suggest it was an unintended bug.

coco

Cocoanut

*was a bug

Prokofy Neva

I was just seeing a holo-vendor work recently, I don't know if they disabled it or what.

I'd like to understand whether it "broke" or "had to be deliberately disabled". "Broke" would mean "they put in this one fix to fix the problem of sim overloading but then oops, it no longer became possible to even temp do it". "Disabled" would be if all things temp on rezzing were now no longer doing that.

Jeremiah North

The only person who can answer has gone silent - but with the unofficial forums likely to pick up the slack of the official ones going dead, perhaps he will surface and say.

But in the years I've been in online environments, in things like MUD's and IRC and other ancient tech, people leave when they finally are getting no more joy from the game and often never explain why.

Baba

temponrez was designed for just that purpose.. To allow people rez something despite prim limits for a limited time only. I think breaking it had to have been an accident.

Yumi Murakami

I suspect the reason they changed temp-on-rez was because of people making their entire house, and in one case even an entire shop, temp-on-rez and then using a script to rez it around every 10 seconds so it appeared to be permanent.

Why do you consider Starax to be FIC? I don't think he was anywhere near old enough to get a Lifetime account.

Yumi Murakami

By the way...

I also heard that there was another bug affecting the Starax wand, a more serious one. Normally the objects in the Starax wand are no modify/no transfer. Apparantly in one of the more recent updates, a bug resulted in certain wands rezzing objects with full perms, so that the wand owner could pick up the sculpture and resell it.

Apparantly, Starax contacted the Lindens about this and there was some kind of upset (I'm not sure about this) because although they fixed the bug that was making it happen, they either couldn't repair the wands that had already gone to full permissions rezzing or they couldn't remove the full perms versions of his objects from the wand users' inventories.

Prokofy Neva

Jeremiah, I totally agree, that there comes a moment for some people when all of a sudden, their game goes cold. For a lot of people, that happened in TSO. Something would be the cut-off point for them. The bust of Dragon's Cove. Or the milkshakes being put in. An ex-friend once explained that another game he was playing, I forget its name, became "a puddle of the former game, and when you realize you are playing in a puddle you leave." The puddle happened due to hackers and cheaters.

Perhaps the breakages and the proliferation of freebies and "hacks" in the sense of selling freebies which bothers these older creators so much (and I think they need to get over it) suddenly became too much for Starax. I can't know. I remember I couldn't get enough of making stories in offline Sims for the longest time. It seemed vital to me. I simply had to keep telling those stories, making the clubs to go with them, trading them, etc. using the family albums and the RealSlideShow tools. But then online TSO killed that for me and others, for various reasons, and then while SL seemed much more adaptible to making the same kind of customized scenes we had in offline TSO, it was too hard to do editing and captioning in the same way (even reading Moriash's tutorial it looks too damn hard); making books are time consuming, anything you do is time consuming and you snap after awhile and don't do it.

Yumi, I read the information about Starax's wand having this OTHER bug, which he sardonically asked, was that a bug or a feature, but my understanding was that the loophole was closed and that problem was fixed. If I'm wrong, it was at least fixable in a patch soon to come. You said as much. Your concerns was then that the existing messed-up copies were still vulnerable to exploit.

Well, that's an example where Starax gets on the horn and says, don't sell my product out from under me, I ask the cooperation of all mall owners and clubs with vendors to keep this off the market. Then people pitch in. There isn't all this wringing of hands and whining. People get to work trying to deal with it.

We don't construct, however, an entire ideology around this aberration. MOST freebies are not the result of exploitations, Yumi, they're just things that the creators VOLUNTARILY, without and exploit, checked off. And THAT is what I want to deal with, which is the center of gravity of the freebie world.

Temp on rezzing stuff and having them come out as all copyable is alarming. It means all that stuff could be sold. But...could we get a grip here? Would anyone WANT to sell stuff coming out of the wand as stand-alone items? Well, they might. Would anyone buy them? Well, maybe. Would a person who spend $15,000 on a wand be likely to say, hey, this little statue came out here for free, and it's transferable, I'll sell it for $5, maybe somebody might buy it as a garden gnome, you never know. Well...is that a big deal? I just am not getting the full dimensions of the drama here, so help me out.

A certain percentage of people would never look at the perms and would never think to sell it. I know that I almost never sell stuff even at our own yard sales I sponsor, nor look at the perms on things, so if I bought somebody's thing accidently set on copy or had a thing like that I'd not bother to resell it. Why would I go to the trouble for $20?

Everybody always brings up the horror story of Jamie Bergman's normally-free guns she sold for $600. Well, do you ever go to yardsales? Do you often see things for $600? No. Are the prices more like $60? They are.

I know it will seem harsh, but I can only say: why would content creators feel they must be constantly shielded from everything that goes wrong in SL? They seem like prima donnas to me. that's when Aimee was leading a gang of them to go on strike over some permissions issue once, I thought that was childish -- I'm all for strikes, but when a technical breakage occurs that they plan to fix, it seems unruly to go on a rampage.

Think of all the times the land dealers have had to eat shit and die, and we're told to suck it up and keep eating more shit. And we're told that a businessmen never complains, a businessmen makes a profit. This is Enabran's Darwinistic nostrum. I'm so glad that blaze spinnaker at least understood that I was calling on those saying live by the sword that they should die by the sword.

I have to suck it up and be a good businessmen and eat crashes, lost inventory, the bottom dropping out of the land market, etc. etc.

Content creators get to shriek and scream due to an exploit. I can only say, well, do what I have to do. I had to suck up 3 days of the groups being broken and no one able to join them to rent my land. Huge losses from my normal business. So I hustled other things and ran around turning off autoreturn.

I can only say to someone who has to pull their stuff due to an exploit appearing like that, well, ok, make new stuff then? Try something different? See if they can fix it?

I've had to eat two sims that are barely usable because clubs moved into smaller parcels (by contrast with my larger holdings) and they grind the sim to a halt nightly with 40 avatars. There appears to be no end in sight. I don't wish to be forced into a sale. So I try to put other things like vendors or stores that lag doesn't matter as much as it does in a home, and I grit it and wait.

I feel in our sector we simply have become more hardened to dealing with the harshness of the platforms upstarts and backward slides and mess-ups and content creators have been feted for so long they have no stomach for hardship. This is my very psychological and subjective view of the subject. You can argue with me all you want about this and you know something? You will not change my gut feeling about this.

Pouting, leaving customers who paid good money in a lurch who now all have non-workning products without even so much as a card to say "sorry," -- it seems poor form. Far more gracious would be public commitment to see it through, and the making of new products in the interrim.

So Yumi, I can't work up the moral indignation that you can about this horror that something temp-rezzed can be resold.

I have an OBVIOUS question to ask. How come the temp rez stuff doesn't spontaneously disappear? wouldn't that be the normal course of things? that is, it sounds like if it wasn't before and left behind usable but not transferable goods, that it wasn't acting like some things do, that rez but disappear on their own. Or are you saying this was a new function?

Looking at the issue soberly, rather then with high moral dungeon that OMG a freebie exploit has been let into the greedy hands of yardsalers, you'd have to concede that these items from the temp on rez aren't really that in demand for yardsalers, eh?

What you're saying about the temp on rez house doesn't make sense, either. Those houses have a function that locks a version of it into place. It isn't continually rezzing the house all day.

Frankly, I find it amazing that a creator who suffered from an exploit that created freebies not in the main product itself, but in these little temp-on-rez things that came out of it, would then expect the Lindens to reach into all the inventories of all customers and take it out, or take out those rezzed products. I mean, that sounds like work. And work they don't have time for.

So, yes, ultimately, I cry for Starax and his destroyed wand -- a wand I didn't buy, because I wasn't cool enough to even figure out that his store, which was right next door to me in our geographically contiguous world, had this great thing in it. But I cry for myself, having land not rend next to ugly spinning signs I had to fight for days on that sim -- and any number of other hurricanes I've had to endure on that sim.

Virtuality isn't all it cracked up to be. In fact, it's cracked.

Brace

Was wondering was the thingy that broke Jeff Gomez's Primmie game ever fixed?

Memories:
Seeing pics like this http://www.2ndlook.org/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=1

and...

Sitting on the supine human form of a woman created in a sandbox by Starax.

Wanting to sort of touch it, and be a part of it... because in a few hours it would be gone forever....

Prokofy Neva

I began to get the distinct impression trying to find a public display of Starax' statues somewhere that in fact he had somehow removed them all from the world, too, or gotten people to take them down.

Prokofy Neva

Brace, no Jeffrey's game was never fixed, because it may have hinged on something similar, too? It rezzed out stuff temporarily too, or replicated stuff, and I remember his game was the casualty of the measures taken to stop grid-crashers with self-replicating objects.

Update: Yesterday I logged into the sandbox at Aztecha Sky Palace and it was FILLED with Starax sculptures put out by a newbie, who also thoughtfully added to his sim-overloading pastiche a dash of zipping pink particle spray, some plywood, and other stuff out of the library. This Sandbox Sonata contained, oh, about 20 cows by Starax, each of which was rather high in the prim department and also could be added to your avatar to help you engage in the "dancing cow experience."

It's copyable, and I remember now that Simone and her friend first introduced me to this happy cow dancing experience next to her sales barn in Wakeley when she used to be there.

So if nothing else, we have the cow.

Simone

One of Starax's statues sits in the main entrance of my store. I've always loved this guy's work, and when I finally felt I was making enough to afford his art, I went and got this incredible fountain. I only wish I'd been able to get more of his things, and it's really sad to see some of his work sitting in sandboxes with 'free to copy' signs slapped up next to it. I'd be pretty pissed off too. I can only imagine the hours that he put into his work. Damn sad that he's gone. He raised the bar for every aspiring artist and builder in SL.

Prokofy Neva

Simone, I think the cows were always free to copy. You have one -- the dancing cows.

Yes, he put hours into his work. It's sad. He did make money. He could have stayed and made more money and toughed it out. He obviously got tired of doing that.

test

What you consider a secret regarding Starax's store was not much of a secret. All you had to do was look at his profile and select his store from his Picks list. That would have teleported you to the store. You read too much into the fact that he didn't have a sign on the ground.

Prokofy Neva

No, I disagree.

He didn't have a sign on the ground because he didn't wish to sell to the general public. He could have had a normal store on the ground and would have sold lots of stuff. He could have gone in a mall and sold the stuff.

But he put it up in the air, out of sight, and you just had to "know" who he was, and where the store was, and what to get there.

How would you know to look at someone's picks? How could you be expected to "just know" that SL has this amazing wand and amazing guy who builds statues? When the world was smaller, perhaps you'd have a great chance of seeing one of these things. As the world got bigger, you couldn't.

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