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08/29/2006

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Yumi Murakami

I think one thing to bear in mind is that making text appear on an item is very, very hard - unless you want the kind of floating text you see hovering over poseballs, then if you want any substantial amount of text you have to use the XyText library, which basically revolves around flattening down a cube and then putting textures on it, with each texture representing two letters, so you get 6 letters per prim. (Although I understand someone has made a prim that shows 5 faces now, but I'm not sure they texture nicely.)

That's why you get the "robotic space age glowing or slow to rez text" - the font used for XyText does look a bit techy, but it's the only one that XyText supports, and it's slow to rez because it relies on 3 (or so?) huge textures with every combination of two letters represented in them.

Prokofy Neva

Yes, Yumi, I realize that, and I said that, I cited Xy-text, and the known limitations of having to put textures on facets of prims. However, compare and contrast the Graffiti board and the Whiteboard, and you'll see the Graffiti simply rezzes lots more, and rezzes faster. So the Whiteboard is going backwards, sacrificing all that, to give us the ability to overlay a worldmap, coloured shapes, tic-tac-toe, and a Voter that requires an additional shape.

Nobody really can justify any time spent on this, because they're all assuming that when we get HTML on a prim (havoc on a prim?) this will all be OBE'd. I doubt it. I think it will remain relevant to have a device for collaborative texture. Such a device needs more drag, drop, and buttons, rather than commands.

Prokofy Neva

See, I covered your point by writing this:

"which also reaches whatever that known limit is, that was established years ago by Xylor Bayclef and never beaten -- because the number of letters has to do with the number of prims I believe or something, and thus has to do with linkage and sim capacity and script capacity -- or you'll be forced to upload $10 page after $10 page of pre-set, Gutenberg-type press trays of text you typed in word or notepad and put into Paint or PSP and copied as a jpeg into the game."

Clubside Granville

Calling this product a whiteboard is an insult to whiteboards, if such a thing is possible. If Second Life is truly meant to offer collaboration tools, the hurdle of fixed textures needs to be jumped. The programming to support mouse drawing on a texture (or even LSL-derived primitives like circle and square) and "painting" fonts rather than prim lettering sould be minimal. I'm not talking about an internal Photoshop, just the basic scribbling tools we have at a whiteboard in real life, a seclection of colors and pen widths and a canvas to draw on. At any point the new texture could be saved to inventory, wiped to its original state or any number of basic features.

I'm sure I'm not writing anything new, I guess I just can't get past your initial paragraph. That anyone would take this "product" as anything worth writing about, unless it was the subject of the lack of truly collaborative features within Second Life, is utterly amazing.

Prokofy Neva

Well, check out the product on your own, first, Clubside. Perhaps with your tekkie-wiki-woo, you'l be able to wrangle it better than me -- I spent more than two hours on it and only got so far.

No, there isn't mouse drawing on a texture like you can do in yahoo Messenger. There's placent of Play Shapes as I said, out of the prim, through animation of your avatar (that part baffles me but I guess is necessary).

There's a pointer, and overlays of texts. So it has some minimal manipulation of stuff that I suppose could have some value. I'm just not seeing it. I personally will not vote by first laying down a text with 3 vote options on a static texture, then hoisting a prim on to that texture like a checker on a checkerboard.

SL is way past that at least with other scripted voting products like April 2003 Votemaster from Lindens or Max Case's.

But please, don't let my limited, benighted, and no doubt Luddite take on this prevent you from analyzing it yourself. Perhaps you'll be able to write the "hacks" for it too.

Max Case

"But even Max Case's voter just...works better! His is clunky, the buttons are too big and close together"
You can always mod the buttons and move them farther apart, make em smaller, re-texture them once the machine is set up.
You may have to take a building 101 class to learn how to edit linked objects, but the ability should be there.
With love,
-max

Prokofy Neva

Um guess what, Max, DUH I know that., and have known that since my first building lessons 2 years ago DUH.

But.. that requires editing linked parts. I really don't enjoy doing that. Or...unlinking the parts, which in scripted items, can totally mess them up.

I'd have to go into each individual button, mod it, resize it, lather rinse repeat. The entier thing won't shrink down easily all at once -- it shrinks the backboard, but leaves the big buttons to be faced, a chore I didn't feel like doing.

I have to say about AngryBeth's, the entire thing was shrinkable, absolutely vital, since it's regular size when rezzed out pokes up into the second floor of a one-story building.

I guess she was imagining big stadiums where the masses would need to have a very visible board to see, not indoor use.

Max Case

Hi Prok.
Why do you take a sarcastic tone with me? I know it's easier to throw stones, but you should try to restrain yourself.

Actually, you can shrink the whole thing down in one shot - i have done it myself. Try unchecking 'edit linked parts'.

Unfortunately, I'm not much a designer, so I kept it very barebones.

Best,
Max.

Prokofy Neva

Did that hon, does not work. I would not be starting by putting a thing with edit-linked-parts checked off. I start by trying to use white tabs to reduce the entire thing in size, But...it will not. Only the backboard does. So...I look into editing WITH "edit-linked-parts" and I realize, uh=oh, this will take a long time and if I just unlink the entire thing, the buttons may not longer work right and register their hover texts right.

Max, I would still like an answer from our previous long discussion, also on the Herald, about why your claim that neighbours are neighbours on your Neighbours, given that Lee Linden, and the examination one can do oneself, illustrate that in fact they are not stacked -- if you p2p quicklt to the one that is supposedly stacked, you see it is not inworld when you actually examine it. I checked this numerous times. Seems to be that your reporting is lagged, or inaccurate in ways that refreshing right then with the HUD does not eevn fix.

Max Case

a) The machine definitely resizes. You have to set it up first. Once it's rezzed, and all the buttons are linked, etc, you can resize the whole thing in one fell swoop. I know this for a fact because I have done it. (Not recently, but I have done it and made miniturized versions). I don't know how small you are trying to go though.
b) I answered our previous long discussion. If you teep quickly, and they have changed, it updates. Only thing I can think of if you teep'ed to a No Scripts Zone, and forgot to fly up so it would activate. I never deny the info may be a bit out of date. Which is why I add freshness info, and still have some more mods to do to it, time permitting. Personally, I expect LL to open up Sim info when web services hit - which would make my project redundant - but maybe I am just optimist.
Don't remember what Herald piece you are referring to. Maybe email it to me?

Prokofy Neva

1) The machine definitely does NOT resize.

2) I rezzed it, set it out, and tried to resize it. Only the back panel resizes. The large buttons do not.

3) I set all the texts for the buttons and questions, try to resize it -- it would resize the panel and not the huge bottoms which are really huge and stupid and get in the way of seeing the text -- it's a poor design.

4) I just did this, repeatedly, many times over, and have the voter out in Ross.

5) Your ability to doubt people's inworld field experience and accurate reporting of their own user testing knows no bounds. I suggest you get a huge attitude adjustment and make yourself more willing to hear real, user-tested experience.

6) I'm not trying to make some miniature thing. I'm just trying to resize it a LITTLE so it isn't so obtrusive.

7) I do TP quickly. It does NOT update, unless you have some very new script and changes I haven't seen in 2 weeks. No-script or flying up is not relevant in the slightest. These are all sims with script action turned on.

Max Case

1) There is no point in this. When I get home tonight, I will log in and try it out. Last time I tried, the Whole Object resized, no problem.

3) The Huge Buttons were meant to be visible and big. Zoom in a bit, and the size fixes itself. More an issue with llSetText than my button size.

5)I'm just doubting a known griefer (you). And not doubting my own in world experience. Should I take your rants over my own lived xp? I don't think so.

7) See 5. By all means, let me know which sims you have visited that aren't updating. When I do tests, they update. So I don't know what to tell you there.

/42 Bling On!
-max

Max Case

Ok. Lunch time. I am in world now, Resizing the machine. Everything resizes.
I think your problem prok is you don't like the ratio/scale of the buttons to the back board. In that case, I would recommend making the back board BIGGER (using Edit Linked Parts) and then Shrinking the Whole Thing Down™ (uncheck edit linked parts). That might help.

So, for the record, it resizes just fine.
-max.

Chance Takashi

Funny. I read "whiteboard" on 3pointD and had myself a nerdgasm. I find when talking about technical matters I lose some of my native eloquence unless standing next to a whiteboard (or better yet an old slate chalkboard) and scrawling furiously. So I ran right out and grabbed Angrybeth's whiteboard, took it home and tried it.

I'm with you that "whiteboard" may be a misnomer, but as a presentation tool (I hesitate to say "powerpoint") I think it may have some fantastic uses. The big problem is that the annotations you put on the board have to be saved as their own object/collection and re-rezzed manually every time you want to reshow any particular slide. It's cumbersome, to say the least. I think it'd be possible to make a version that saved, but perhaps not.

Anyway, I really just wanted to pop up and say I loved the tree cartoon. It rocked my socks. If I weren't worried about copyright violation, I'd be printing it out and pasting it up in the office.

Cheers,
CT

Prokofy Neva

Um, I would like to hope the whiteboard has some potential for um...group groping. Nerdgasm is an overstatement, however. Having to keep resaving and rerezzing stuff is a chore. And even within the non-saving little environment it creates, it means constantly clambering through the steps of press on this, say yes to animate me, press yes to that, no to that, press on that -- it's just way too cumbersome.

I had one educator already write me privately and confess that she had bought this excited some time ago, put it up in her virtual classroom, found it clunky, and put it back in inventory. At least I've given people the courage to say this now. Otherwise, they'd feel embarassed that they were somehow uncool and untekkie enough to work this thing.

I don't see what could possibly be copyrighted about that cartoon which I've gotten in email from everybody and his brother several times lately, it's one of those "Internet lore" things. I have no idea. Well, sue me.

Chance Takashi

Well, when I start releasing my own products out into the wild, I hope someone is as honest to me about them as you've been about this product.

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