Here's the transcript from the Friday night Sutherland Dam Club discussion. Unfortunately, as I had to keep leaving to take care of tenants, I had to use someone else's transcript with timestamps, which are annoying.
[18:20] Cocoanut Koala: there's koolaid?
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: Here is the original story from the Linden Blog:
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/12/08/abuse-reporting-begins-overhaul/
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: Has anybody heard anything more about that?
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: today in their inhouse newsletter they have more:?
[18:21] JJason Jedburgh: what is the protocol for making a contribution to this discussion?
[18:21] JJason Jedburgh: does one merely pitch in at random?
[18:21] Little Gray: yeah JJason
[18:22] Cyrus Huffhines: /mg hide
[18:22] Little Gray: probably just have to respect other speakers .. I suspect folks are waiting to see what others really want to get off their chest and/or raise some discussion points first
[18:22] JJason Jedburgh: ok, then. I believe there is a defined set of circumstances in which linden intervention to address abusive behaviour is of great importance and difficult to substitute for -especially harassment and unwanted surveillance...
[18:22] Little Gray: who hasnt' read that blog on abuse overhaul?
[18:23] onyx Bijoux: me
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: http://secondlife.com/newsletter/2006_12/
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: there
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: it's even more worrisome the way they've written it up there
[18:23] onyx Bijoux: Thank you..
[18:23] JJason Jedburgh: ...for example, if an avatar builds an "observation deck" immediately adjacent to a skybox after buying land there, and keeps moving it to different altitudes specifically to harass and/or intimidate
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: and of course, the Ur text for some of this awfulness is here:
[18:23] Cocoanut Koala: i havent read the newsletter entry
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2006/11/interview-with-second-lifes-philip_28.html
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: and I'm thrashing that now
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: Philip's claim that 60 percent of all incidents will be handled by residents
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: I'm sorry, that's not how he put it, here's what he said:
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: "So, like the question of dispute resolution and arbitration and crime in SL, long-term I totally expect that to be managed by an overlapping set of locally-defined standards. If you look two years in the future or something, I suspect getting in trouble in SL would probably mean getting put on someone's blacklist."
[18:24] Little Gray: but thats not always a clear distinction
[18:24] Little Gray: I think the line has to be drawn, JJason, between 'software violations' and 'resident to resident' matters
[18:25] Prokofy Neva: "Or getting subjected to a trial by users – not by Linden Lab – [where] at the end of it you get put on that blacklist. And because it's a public trial getting put on that blacklist is very serious because 60% of the people in SL subscribe to that blacklist."
[18:25] Prokofy Neva: trial by users
[18:25] JJason Jedburgh: how is the line between resident to resident vs software violations drawn now Little Gray. Are we here to discuss both or only one kind of infraction?
[18:25] Prokofy Neva: that's what he anticipates, 60 percent -- and it will be more -- will have a master shitlist to ban the shit out of thousands of people
[18:25] Prokofy Neva: it already exists
[18:25] Cocoanut Koala: ... sigh ...
[18:26] JJason Jedburgh: what mechanism of appeal can prevent "trial by user" becoming a reprise of Arthur Miller's The Crucible?
[18:26] Pebbles Hannya: It does? Where? And how would that solve the problem anyway? Couldn't the same person come back with an alt and cause the same problem again?
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: well you start by muting him and banning him, but soon Hiro Pendragon will have his way -- you will mute out even the rendering of his object
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: and he won't be able to camera-zoom to you
[18:26] Little Gray: we are here to discuss resident to resident disputes of the sort that LL does not have the resources to address, JJason, but lets let Prokofy speak .. he's very knowlegable, if a wee bit opinionated
[18:26] Heartun Breaker stops to read The Crucible
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: so it will be an endlessly spliced stream
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: Well I'm not here to speak, this is a discussion
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: it is ON THE RECORD
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: it is PUBLISHED if I have time
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: so do not talk if you do not like these regular house rules
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: what I hate most about this
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: is that there is no design shown
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: no explanation, no indication of their plans
[18:28] Heartun Breaker: doesnt that open up the equation for US to tell THEM what kind of self governance we want?
[18:28] Prokofy Neva: well but Philip is reserving for himself the "few overarching rules"
[18:28] Prokofy Neva: really, it's very worrisome
[18:28] Heartun Breaker: How about elected officials with some power?
[18:28] Prokofy Neva: under the guise of freedom and local law and grassroots initiative
[18:28] JJason Jedburgh: could we not have inworld elections in which avatars that are willing to spend the on adjudicating disputes, and can demonstrate the appropriate maturity of judgment and small "l" liberalism outlook, are appointed for a specified period to assist with disputes?
[18:28] Cocoanut Koala: like banning
[18:28] Prokofy Neva: they will obliterate any kind of basic universal human rights
[18:28] Cocoanut Koala: well,we only ever get given "tools"
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: well why WE ?
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: do that on YOUR sim
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: I don't want small "l" liberalism of your sort, let's say
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: see that's the idea
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: you go thrash that out with the socialist theme park at Neualtenberg
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: or the Goreans if you like totalitarianism
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: or whatever floats your boat
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: there can't be people saying "We"
[18:29] Cocoanut Koala: most people aren't too crazy about elected government
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: they can't adjudicate it and won't
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: well they are substituting THIS
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: which is "code-as-law" government by tools
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: it if it is like the voting mechanism that has no "no vote" it will be dreadful
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: where is the recourse, the appeal?
[18:30] Heartun Breaker: most people would kill for elected government... if it is backed by the Rule of Law
[18:30] JJason Jedburgh: but aren't those subcultures - such as the socialists or goreans - willing to accept an overarchingly liberal humanist approach to dispute solutions?
[18:30] Cocoanut Koala: you could set up elected representatives,but it would only work on a private sim type situation
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: I could pay thousands of dollars in tier, have purchased boatloads of sims, but somebody in my group could ban me from what I paid for
[18:30] Heartun Breaker: We need a Bill of Rights... not a TOS
[18:30] Cocoanut Koala: like Meuraltenberg
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: and they'll say well, go talk to your friends, run for election, whatever
[18:30] Cocoanut Koala: haha i'd go for that heartun!
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: they aren't interested in avatar rights
[18:30] JJason Jedburgh: I mean, its role play within a defined space - but at the end of the day, as an over arching mental architecture, aren't there certain values we all kinda subscribe to?
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: this is the substitution
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: You would think Jjason
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: that is also the theme I've discussed with them here forever
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: they don't get it and dont' want to get it
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: they do not believe in universality except their own drop-down blue screen
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: they want a few things that THEY like
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: like "we get to ban from the blogs" or "we get to boot from town halls"
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: the rest they will leave to us
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: and that will get very nasty
[18:31] Little Gray: most but not a ll Jjason .. it might be 'voluntary' to preserve the metauniverse aspect ... people would voluntary submit themselves to the jurisdiction of a resident to resident dispute system in order to be entitled to its services.
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: precisely because most people in fact aren't that we you imagine, subscribing to basic principles like that
[18:31] JJason Jedburgh: isn't the EULA a de facto bill of rights?
[18:32] Heartun Breaker: There will be a huge downsizing of the LL 'customer service' corps.... law will fall upon us. We need to tell LL how we want to handle it.
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: but Little Gray, that's NOT the plan
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: it is not voluntary
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: it is a menu of tools
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: that's how they do everything
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: you will be able to mute, ban, bounce, etc
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: and then they will add much more
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: all abuse reports will go...not to Lindens but the chief Gorean
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: You know, Active Worlds got taken over by Goreans
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: because they figured out how to do this best, and just ran it and controlled the whole place
[18:32] onyx Bijoux: nothing wrong with Gorean
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: they even have a guillitine
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: Yes there is everything wrong with Gorean
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: everything in the world
[18:33] onyx Bijoux: in your opinon
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: they don't get to run me on my sim with my disputes by infecting the overarching dispute system
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: which is what they did in Active Worlds
[18:33] Syngen Sohmers: Whoa. Not debating Goreans. Discussing self governance.
[18:33] Syngen Sohmers: Keep it on topic please.
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: no, not in my opinion, many people's
[18:33] Heartun Breaker: I just did a survey of fetishes/lifestyles for the SL Herald.... Goreans make up 14 percent.
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: no Syngen, Gor is the epitome of this problem
[18:33] Heartun Breaker: They are just very focused and organized.
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: Gor cannot be allowed to spread on to people involuntarily by infecting systems
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: and that's what they have done at tmies
[18:34] JJason Jedburgh: why not have an opt-in legal system, based on what brought together nation states (sims) for the formation of the united nations. The Linden EULA functions like the H bomb after world war 2 forcing all to cooperate... just a suggestion
[18:34] Syngen Sohmers: If you think that's the issue..then yeah...This isn't a discussion about what we were told it was.
[18:34] Cocoanut Koala: well, I don't think we need to have everything run by Goreans, do you?
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: like Angel Fluffy took over the voting tools
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: Goreans should run their own sims
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: but what if an abusive master sexually harasses a newbie who is clueless -- she can no longer go to the Lindens
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: the Lindens say, well, too bad for you hon
[18:34] JJason Jedburgh: goreans are like klingons (controversial, but true) - not an appropriate weltanschau for a rule of law methinks
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: you joined it, you live with it
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: that's exactly what LL put out a year ago when we had all these discussions
[18:35] Syngen Sohmers: Welcome to the internet. I suppose we'll have to learn to net nanny.
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: they essentially said, Goreans get to have all abuse reports on their properties re-routed
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: away from LL to the main Gor master
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: the problem though for most people won't be Gor
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: what you get are persistent griefers of the ordinary type
[18:35] Mars Lake: The Lindens are washing their hands of it....too costly too much work....nobody will have that much power to deal with things, andready supply of free alts makes anything user based inneffective....
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: like somebody is booted from an RP sim for not behaving
[18:35] Heartun Breaker: Gorean domination is NOT an issue with an appropriate Bill of Rights and the Rule of Law
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: and then he hangs around the edges, making trouble
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: If you can make Goreans subscribe to that, Heartun
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: and you can't, not with their ideologies
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: the idea that Jjason suggested
[18:36] Mars Lake: Think anarchy...those that own the land and those with the most powerful weapons will have some control
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: that there is an overarching fundamental universality is not present for a lot of people
[18:36] Heartun Breaker: they are always harping about how they want to be left alone and not griefed... I think they will buy in
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: through ignorance, lack of education, and heavy ideology in this or that extremism
[18:36] Heartun Breaker: they actually have one hell of a griefing problem
[18:36] Cocoanut Koala: sounds about right, Mars
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: we'll be subjected to every horror, Le Pen, political correctness, Gor -- all in the name of maximizing locality
[18:37] Heartun Breaker: LL needs to lay off people to get the next round of VC
[18:37] Heartun Breaker: It is a foregone conclusion... and is predictable
[18:37] Syngen Sohmers: I think you have to quit looking at this in terms of a game and wanting a big brother over your shoulder, and look at LL's long term plans for this. Open sourcing SL will make it an internet paralell. So it will be governed by the laws of the net. the DMCA and certain state regulations.
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: Syngen, that's baloney, that is only your concept
[18:38] Heartun Breaker: hear hear!
[18:38] JJason Jedburgh: are they going for another round of VC or an acquisition exit? how does that, in any case, impact on self governance inworld? genuine question...
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: and the concept of a certain faction of tekkies
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: but this is a world
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: it isn't a 2-d internet page with limited functions
[18:38] Syngen Sohmers: So for the most part anyone can come and go off of your web page (property) until you lay down some law (software)
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: your notions of "the internet" are shorn of any real grasp of the reality of human relationsi n a 3-D environment
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: you can't assume the DMCA can take care of everything
[18:38] Heartun Breaker: JJason.... VC or acquisition, they need to lean down .... and that means ditching overhead (customer service/ liasons)
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: yes that's what drives this
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: they need to cut staff, and not deal with 2000 reports a day
[18:39] Heartun Breaker: they sure as hell aren't going public in this market
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: of course, they could decriminalize some behaviour they waste time on
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: like swearing in PG, selling in sandboxes
[18:39] Cocoanut Koala: they are hiring more, heartun
[18:39] Cocoanut Koala: like say FREE SPEECH
[18:39] Syngen Sohmers: And WoW deals with way more than that. It doesn't take that much effort to deal with reports. It's simply not practical over the 3-d net long scheme.
[18:39] You: both of those could be solved with tools, as a point of note
[18:39] Heartun Breaker: all VC backed companies keep hiring THROUGH layoffs
[18:40] Cocoanut Koala: im sick to death of speech being the worst possible crime!!!
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: See, here's the kind of "helpful suggestion" on this Linden blog about this new concept:
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: "One suggestion I’ve made, is allowing mentors/greeters or certain residents to be able to “freeze’ an account.""
[18:40] Syngen Sohmers: And the earlier the SLers figure out to govern themselves, the better off it is.
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: so Jeska's mentors can just arbitrarily freeze accounts of people they don't like with no appeal
[18:40] Cocoanut Koala: egad
[18:40] Cocoanut Koala: we are doomed
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: and that is the kind of problem that isn't your Internet Syngen
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: it's a much deeper social problem
[18:40] Heartun Breaker: That's likely what will happen, Prok... if we don't get a better plan in order
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: it's not just about some page and some content
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: it's about Jeska being able to deploy her mentors to freeze accounts, return prims
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: They started this precedent by allowing Angel Fluffy to tag voting proposals for Linden return
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: so now of course all mine are returned
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: lol
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: CANT DO
[18:41] Cocoanut Koala: mentors freezing people's accounts - that's the most chilling thing I've heard yet
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: lol
[18:41] Heartun Breaker: One thing I think we need to do is tie any democratic/republic voting to land owners
[18:41] Heartun Breaker: and I'm not a land owner
[18:41] Little Gray: i think if your going to have residents adjudicate disputes of other residents, it has to be by (1) a panel of judges, (2) a qualified adjudicator, or (3) a trial by jury
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: yes Coco but see, that's on the blog as a suggestion paving the way
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: and how much will lindens control?
[18:41] Cocoanut Koala: but - that was a resident who suggested that, right, not a linden?
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: you should see what it's like at the welcome areas
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: it is such madness they will start letting helpers deal
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: they already summarily execute people in droves
[18:42] Little Gray: or AT LEAST appealable to some sort of system providing for basic 'due process'
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: But due process will all be local
[18:42] Cocoanut Koala: well, then that would be just freezing brand-new accounts, right?
[18:42] JJason Jedburgh: well, isn't the underlying existence of property rights (ie the ability to buy a sim that is totally controlled) going to be the defacto enforcer of hegemony? People who want to be able to live under certain conditions - such as rule of law, liberal social values etc - will need to buy a sim. Sims of similar ideology will aggregate into hegemonic blocks. And, like Western values and, say, islamic blocks, the hegemonies will sit in uneasy repose. But its viable at least, non?
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: there will be a hundred due processes
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: Well freedom of the press belongs to him who owns one
[18:42] Cocoanut Koala: it doesn't work, JJason
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: rights are often housed in ownership
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: but this is a world with only 36,000 landowners
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: is that fair?
[18:43] Cocoanut Koala: because unlike other real world societies, the Lindens STILL maintain the ability to take your sim away from you
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: you don't get rights unless you buy a sim?
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: yes exactly that too
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: they are dumping any effort to make any kind of dispute resolution system WITH THEM
[18:43] Heartun Breaker: I'm undocumented... and I don't think my vote counts for anything.
[18:44] Heartun Breaker: If I wanted it to... I'd get documented
[18:45] JJason Jedburgh: but sim ownership is starting to aggregate into large ideological blocks. For example, NBC TV has 17 islands. IBM has 12. and many other examples. Ironically, the corporates rely on popularity and - i can't believe i'm saying this - real world corporates entering SL will arguably make a "positive" contribution to a sensible, relaxed, small l liberal dispute resolution regime emerging organically. Is this baloney, or do you think it has some legitimacy?
[18:46] Cocoanut Koala: what do you keep meaning by "small liberal"?
[18:46] Prokofy Neva: well liberalism, not the liberal party per se?
[18:46] Cocoanut Koala: and to your question, I doubt NBC or IBM will bother with any such thing
[18:46] Cocoanut Koala: OH
[18:46] Cocoanut Koala: small L liberalism
[18:46] Cocoanut Koala: I get it
[18:47] JJason Jedburgh: well, I see small l liberalism being Bill Clinton oriented, versus say, Bush right wing religious, or, say, Moslem, or say, Gorean
[18:47] JJason Jedburgh: hard to define ideologies with economy - when fingers are aching - but does that definition resonate for anyone?
[18:48] Cocoanut Koala: IBM doesn't need anything besides boot and ban
[18:49] Cocoanut Koala: sim fps is sucking
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: hmm
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: it's a Lee Linden TD .98 (TM)
[18:50] JJason Jedburgh: there are a number of intriguing difference between real world ideological intervention and inworld issues. eg. the USA went into Bosnia to stop genocide. but doesn't intervene to stop female adulterers being buried to the neck and stoned to death for their "adultery". in real world, people die for intervention. inworld, are interventions that are arguably warranted, justified given no possibility of real death...
[18:50] Prokofy Neva: btw I haven't seen him for ages -- did they fire him?
[18:50] Urizenus Sklar: another missing linden
[18:50] Prokofy Neva: well Jhason, politics is the art of the possible, and human rights is the art of the impossible, in Bosnia they might have a coalition of the willing they don't have in Sudan
[18:50] Urizenus Sklar: start booming the lake again Pok
[18:50] JJason Jedburgh: ...on the other hand, in a morally relativist universe, and especially when we're only talking about role play for fun, there's no point intervening. So we're all only talking about containing manifestiations of behaviour that cause, er, "irritation" - such as griefing
[18:50] Prokofy Neva: but the point is, LL won't even concede that stoning women is wrong everywhere
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: they'll say, "Oh, that's a local behaviour issue"
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: hehe
[18:51] Cocoanut Koala: hiya Uri!
[18:51] Heartun Breaker: hence, Bill of Rights and Rule of Law
[18:52] Cocoanut Koala: well, you would THINK it isn't important, and no point in intervening,
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: well Raph Koster has his Avatar bill of Rights, I'm not that thrilled with hit
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: it's based in collectivist notions that I'd reject if I made it
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: he doesn't have the rights of the individual
[18:52] Cocoanut Koala: but injustices are just as sour in the virtual fun world as in the real world, it turns out
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: he has the notion of "what is good for all avatars"
[18:53] Heartun Breaker: there must be discussion and compromose to make a good Bill of Rights... I don't know how to do that here. No one likes to compromise.
[18:53] Prokofy Neva: My own hunch about how to deal with this is to set up a court like the 16m District Court Pixeleen and I started, and just keep running cases
[18:53] Prokofy Neva: the weight of discussions, rulings, verdicts -- it creates a reality
[18:53] Cocoanut Koala: I certainly don't, lol
[18:53] Prokofy Neva: and that could even be a kind of parody or late-night TV thing
[18:53] Prokofy Neva: but it will show the idiocy of what is happening
[18:53] Prokofy Neva: brb
[18:53] Cocoanut Koala: well, i mean, it would show the idiocy of what people do to each other
[18:54] Cocoanut Koala: true
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: the nastiness of course knows no bounds
[18:54] Heartun Breaker: I'm ok with a District Court... but the judges must have a basis for their rulings (Bill of Rights, Constitution) and they must be elected or appointed in an eqitable way
[18:54] Cocoanut Koala: Philip has said, vis-a-vis the forums, "we don't do that well, we fail at that"
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: I've seen it all
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: well Hearten, you know, we had to just roll it
[18:54] Cocoanut Koala: I think he has decided - and with good reason - that they also fail at dispensing justice
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: because if you have a Neualtenberg type of thing
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: you will argue for years
[18:54] Cocoanut Koala: God, was that chart on SLH real?
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: we were trying to make a very limited thing
[18:54] Cocoanut Koala: it looked like a parody
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: it was more like the advice bureaus in UK
[18:54] Heartun Breaker: Oh, I'm cool babe... I think that rocks that you just did it
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: well we tried to see what the hell are the cases?
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: that was step one
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: what are the cases?
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: are 50 percent of them fixed, merely by the job of writing the appeal?
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: that's what RL abuse systems find
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: when a person articulates the problem, they start solving it
[18:55] Heartun Breaker: But for a large-scale thing... there has to be a foundation, no?
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: especially if you have them exhaust remedies in a really local way first
[18:55] Little Gray: most all residents have certain fundamental rights in common: the right not to be deprived of their property without due process according to whatever rules of sim they subsribe too .. but what about the Gor who wants to RP, but, at the same time, participate in a 'better' dispute resolution mechanism that Gorean bans, stocks and guillotines handed out by a Gorean overlord .. surely, everyone has some rights to particpate in SL that transcend even local sim regulations.
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: like did they ask that fucktard neighbour to stop waving the tree in their yard
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: brb
[18:56] Cocoanut Koala: I should say, gray
[18:56] Cocoanut Koala: the problem in SL is LL hands out the most human rights abuses of anyone
[18:57] Heartun Breaker: Oh, come on Coco...there are far more griefers... LL is just the most injust
[18:57] Heartun Breaker: least just?
[18:57] Cocoanut Koala: griefers pffft
[18:57] Heartun Breaker: well.... "most"
[18:57] Cocoanut Koala: griefers dont hand out human rights abuses
[18:57] Heartun Breaker: yes they do!
[18:57] Cocoanut Koala: like what?
[18:57] Heartun Breaker: Well, I got called a Nigger for about an hour and had no justice
[18:57] Heartun Breaker: yesterday
[18:57] Cocoanut Koala: no justice!
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: that ought to see justice
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: but - it is not the griefer allowing the abuse
[18:58] Heartun Breaker: I AR'd my ass off
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: it is LL if they allow it
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: the thing is, they ARE the only law
[18:58] Heartun Breaker: Its the individual who did it
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: yet the refuse to be the law in many cases
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: then - you did what, AR'd him
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: then who is at fault?
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: you are in LL's land, LL should do something about it
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: they SAY they will
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: THEY hand out that abuse, if you ask me
[18:59] JJason Jedburgh: the de facto "reality" of possible enforcement is vital and only the lindens can have that. What is the specific mechanism for devolving that power to trusted local authorities?
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: by allowing it to perpetuate
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: AND
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: if you make TOO big a stink out of it, they will ban you!
[18:59] Heartun Breaker: the system is broken.... not intentially fucked up. I believe Philip actually wants justice, just has no clue about how to do it AND make money.
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: i ought to know, that's what happened to me
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: I don't believe philip wants that AT all
[18:59] JJason Jedburgh: And who has the *time* to actually participate in the judicial authorities? What are the eligibility criteria to be a "judge"?
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: Philip believes there are (a) people he and his friends like and (b) people he and his friends think are "bad for LL"
[19:00] Cocoanut Koala: and THAT is Philip's idea of justice
[19:00] Cocoanut Koala: giving each Linden the power to act as they wish, NOT in accordance with their written law
[19:00] Heartun Breaker: those are not his stated ideals. I like his stated ideals. I will hold him to them.... even if he is fucked up in enforcing them
[19:00] JJason Jedburgh: how would the inworld legal precedents be captured? what would be a viable legal process? do you see justice based on the English/American legal system of precedent? or statute based?
[19:00] Cocoanut Koala: I haven't heard any stated ideas regarding justice
[19:01] Cocoanut Koala: anyway, regarding your griefer, they may actually be doing something about that
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: well but that's just it Coco
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: Torley wrote that these ideas would "start creeping out into the alleyways"
[19:01] Little Gray: frankly, i don't see how we can create a higher court without taxes .. resolving disputes in world is just as much work as resolving disputes in RL .. there's really no difference if your an arbitrator .. you still have hear arguments, look at the facts ... left up to volunteers, I can see a huge backlog and perhaps even discriminatory treatment in the way cases are selected for adjudication.
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: couldn't have put it better
[19:01] Cocoanut Koala: it is hard to follow
[19:01] Heartun Breaker: Business 2.0 Feb. 2006
[19:01] Cocoanut Koala: WHAT ideas creep out into the alleyways?
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: for justice systems
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: she refers to some in progress already
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: like the Goreans who already have courts and judges
[19:01] Cocoanut Koala: true, Gray
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: and like Neufreistadt which has one
[19:01] Cocoanut Koala: yes well
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: so whoever spent all that time in boring meetings making this shit will prevail lol
[19:02] Cocoanut Koala: the goreans also have ACUTE drama
[19:02] Cocoanut Koala: that messes up their little courts
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: well I've seen their guillotine in action
[19:02] Heartun Breaker: It isn't cute
[19:02] Heartun Breaker: lol
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: I think they have a fairly brisk system
[19:02] Cocoanut Koala: changing laws when needed to , in order to favor a friend, for example
[19:02] Cocoanut Koala: brisk, lol
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: your avatar's head actually cuts off and rolls around
[19:02] Cocoanut Koala: sounds cute
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: Uri you have to see the guillotine!
[19:02] Thor Forte: rofl!
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: very realistic
[19:03] Cocoanut Koala: how do they get to have the avatar head come off?
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: it has like a gush of blood
[19:03] Cocoanut Koala: I'd think that would be impossible
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: tore apart where? just in convos or on a blog?
[19:03] You: animations could do it maybe
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: well the thing is the Lindens need to be curbed from any resmod concept
[19:03] JJason Jedburgh: excellent point Little Gray - and what level of propensity do you think SL residents have to fund a legal system?
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: that's why I raged about the Angel Fluffy issue on voting
[19:03] Cocoanut Koala: Moreover, how on earth would you get people to go by such a system's judgments?
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: we don't need residents removing content like that without due process
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: well Coco
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: watch out
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: because Gwyn's people have a concept
[19:04] Little Gray: well i would like to investigate the Gorean judicial system but I have not been able to find a suitable 'burka' or traditional dark colored middle eastern outfit that covers my face with a veil, and hides my arms and legs.
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: involving YOU forfeiting your property
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: read about it on their forums
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: you sign up to benefit from their system
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: and that involves being willing to have your property used in a dispute
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: well Gwyn will own this tho
[19:04] Syngen Sohmers: Avilon Mist carries a Haik, if you're curious about that.
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: didn't you see that hugely drawn out rant from their lawyer on SL HomePage
[19:05] Syngen Sohmers: I'm sorry guys I need to go. Nice listening to you.
[19:05] JJason Jedburgh: perhaps the lindens could impose a judiciary funding extra fee for new signups to premium level accounts?
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: JJason can you imagine being new and getting that?
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: 9/10 of the people won't
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: I think we need to scale down to just a few very basic ideas fro these Lindens
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: 1) no resmods -- none -- none
[19:05] Cocoanut Koala: well, any system someone has in mind where people get to vote your property away from you isn't, I think, going to fly with most everybody
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: 2) some kind of court of last resort that works after exhausting all these local remedies -- for a certain set of severe cases
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: 3) an end to anonymous reviews of permabanning
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: stuff like that
[19:06] Cocoanut Koala: 4. No more banning or censoring people on the blogs or forums without full public transparency as to the reasons
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: things like "innocent until proven guilty" are concepts the new coders of the metaverse have already thrown out
[19:06] Cocoanut Koala: I got my innocuous post removed by Torley
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: a ban line doesn't ask if you are innocent
[19:07] Cocoanut Koala: 5. No more punishing people in world for what they say on blogs or forums
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: oh that's a good one Coco
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: but geting them to own up to the motives for discipline will never work ever
[19:07] Cocoanut Koala: why not?
[19:07] JJason Jedburgh: maybe newbs will want to get into SL so much that they will be willing to pay the judiciary "tax"?...
[19:07] Heartun Breaker: Would a Supreme Court be Linden based?
[19:08] Cocoanut Koala: i kinda doubt that, jason
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: no that's not the idea
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: Gwyn will run it
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: lol
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: Little have you received any more clarity about your ban?
[19:08] Cocoanut Koala: any plan where Gwyn or others get to decide to take my real life money away from me sucks, i know that much
[19:08] JJason Jedburgh: and the "tax" can be hidden in a higher payment to join the tier in any case. no one need know they are paying it. only the lindens need to commit to putting aside a portion of each premium signup fee to judicial purposes. like funding their existing dispute resolution real world hires. ironically.
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: well read what the ill-named lawyer wrote on Homepage
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: but Jjason, funding FOR WHOM?
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: I can just see the fanboyz getting their chubby hands on that pot of money
[19:09] Cocoanut Koala: well, again, jason, that would be US paying more for things most griefers , well, the griefers are here for FREE
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: and that influence
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: jury duty has enough problems in RL; how could it work here?
[19:09] JJason Jedburgh: um, what's a resmod? (per prokofy's rule one)
[19:10] Heartun Breaker: If the Judiciary is voted in... I still think that the Constabulatory (police) should be a paid (in Linden) position that 1) cannot try individulas but 2) cannot be fired by judges
[19:10] Cocoanut Koala: the two or three people (or at least one) left who supposedly moderate the forums
[19:10] Heartun Breaker: zOMG!
[19:10] Heartun Breaker: Hey!
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: Has anyone else worked with the group tools?
[19:11] Little Gray: 1) resmods? (2) yes to court (3) yes to trasparency re banning (4) less supportive -- blogs/forums aren't in SL (5) support
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: They imagine that the group tools, which I did work hard on reforming myself, will save us -- but in fact they have a host of problems in them
[19:11] Heartun Breaker: Instead of looking at this with the 'winner take all' American way of Democracy... what about some kind of Parliament based on sim traffic?
[19:11] Cocoanut Koala: wait Gray
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: oh that's interesting
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: of course traffic is gamed
[19:11] Cocoanut Koala: I am saying, if you get banned or suspended from the blog or forum,
[19:11] Cocoanut Koala: you get banned or suspended from the game
[19:11] Cocoanut Koala: and that has been wrong from day 1
[19:11] Heartun Breaker: it can only be gamed so much
[19:11] JJason Jedburgh: the judicial system funding would go into a court of last resort. with elected arbitrators. televised like Judge Judy? Maybe that's an opportunity to create a self-funding judicial system? people pay to watch justice being administered. Set it up as a network tv show?
[19:11] Cocoanut Koala: (It is the notorious "Prok Rule")
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: Jjason, there is no elections
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: this is a place where the tekkies hate elected representatives
[19:12] Cocoanut Koala: i got a 3-day suspension for finally standing up to sexual harassment on the forums
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: that's the awful thing
[19:12] Cocoanut Koala: and though it was worth every day of it, I did lose 3 days of business
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: well Coco, you aer a !@#$@#$ and a !@$@!$## for harassing those !@#$!@#$#!
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: lol
[19:12] Cocoanut Koala: lol
[19:12] Little Gray: Cocoanut: i support #5 wholeheartedly .. conduct in forums doesn't in my mind, have anythign to do with conduct in SL
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: well Little this Prok's law thing is something Philip claims to not even know about
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: and no Linden will EVER discuss it
[19:13] Cocoanut Koala: ok, i must have read your points wrong there
[19:13] Cocoanut Koala: anyway, it is not even CONDUCT in forums!
[19:13] Little Gray: Prokofy: haven't made any follow up as to my ban
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: they are a wall of silence
[19:13] Cocoanut Koala: it is WHAT YOU SAY!
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: well there never will be of course
[19:13] Cocoanut Koala: and, of course, who you are
[19:13] Heartun Breaker: How about we set up a Wiki for 'Laws of Second Life" and see what happens?
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: and that's why documenting abuses and disputes is important
[19:13] Cocoanut Koala: that's a thought, heartun!
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: I loathe wikis
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: lol
[19:14] Cocoanut Koala: yeah, but it would be an interesting experiment!
[19:14] Cocoanut Koala: i say, go for it!
[19:14] Cocoanut Koala: it would be a good sort of ongoing discussion, too
[19:14] Heartun Breaker: Yeah, you can't dominate a Wiki Prok! :)
[19:14] Cocoanut Koala: and we need more of that sort of stuff
[19:14] Cocoanut Koala: that others generally run
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: well why not set up a reasoned editorial board to take suggestions for Laws of Second Life and post them for comment instead of having every sectarian fucktard pull them on and off the wiki : )
[19:14] JJason Jedburgh: a wiki for laws of second life would be brilliant. good suggestion Heartun
[19:14] Heartun Breaker: yeah, purely experimental and for ongoing discussion
[19:15] Cocoanut Koala: that sounds good, Prok
[19:15] Cocoanut Koala: who would put it, and where?
[19:15] Cocoanut Koala: <----- elects self to board
[19:15] Little Gray: seconds Heartburn's motion
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: I had a two-hour wrangle with SignPost Marvin about how he portrayed the entry "Prokofy Neva" on Wikipedia -- they were going to cut it and mangle it of course lol
[19:15] Little Gray: the SL Bar Association has just started its own forum ... link on its way
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: well wikis are tossed to and fro
[19:15] Heartun Breaker: someone already took "secondlifelaw.com'
[19:15] Cocoanut Koala: SL Bar association
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: what worries me about the SL Bar Association
[19:15] Cocoanut Koala: I wish you had been around during my case!
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: is that they are filled with people angling to make money and hay as RL lawyers
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: and work with RL business
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: it's not so much about inworld disputes and things like that
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: it's not about the world
[19:16] Cocoanut Koala: all right, i needed the SL ACLU for my case
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: it's about them wrangling for hours over whether they will be disbarred for practicing here
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: I sat on several meetings like that
[19:17] Little Gray: SL Bar Association: ==> http://www.slba.info/forum
[19:17] JJason Jedburgh: how much connection to real life jurisprudence do you want? eg how about making a criterion for eligibility to the inworld arbitrator group, meatworld membership of a recognised bar council? ie being a member of a realworld judiciary or barrister etc? and would inworld judges need to reveal their realworld identity or be entirely anonymous? it goes to the role of "reputation" in generating "accountability"....
[19:17] Cocoanut Koala: I wanted real life jurisprudence for my case, for sure
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: Jjason, all the things youi are proposing are very intricate and complicated, and never get considered here
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: honestly, the Lindens ONLY understand force
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: they understand things like 468 island owners screaming about prices and threatening to tier down
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: they undersatnd 528 content creators angry about Copybot
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: only social movements and protests
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: they can't entertain elaborate proposlas except from their pets
[19:18] JJason Jedburgh: I have a domain that I'd be willing to make available for this purpose if people think it would be helpful. it is currently underused. It is http://www.barristersonline.com.au/
[19:18] Heartun Breaker: they understand force... but they understand MONEY FIRST
[19:19] Cocoanut Koala: I'm not so sure about that, Heartun
[19:19] Cocoanut Koala: because there are two kinds of money - ours, and investor money
[19:19] Heartun Breaker: nice
[19:19] Cocoanut Koala: ours, not so important
[19:19] Heartun Breaker: our money is crap compared to investor money right now
[19:19] Heartun Breaker: they understand money
[19:19] Cocoanut Koala: Philip's whole last blog thingie was an ode to investors
[19:19] Heartun Breaker: it should be
[19:20] Cocoanut Koala: no, it would be nice if he recognized his CUSTOMERS once in a while!
[19:20] Cocoanut Koala: not just investors and fellow Lindens
[19:20] Heartun Breaker: fuck customers... VC is the gold of all startups
[19:20] Cocoanut Koala: lol
[19:20] Cocoanut Koala: does SL still qualify as a "start-up?"
[19:20] Cocoanut Koala: after this many years?
[19:20] Heartun Breaker: yes
[19:20] JJason Jedburgh: ignore the information about commercial rates - that is just for testing purposes. I'm only talking about the domain itself. This would be a totally non profit route. (sorry for belated clarification - just realised it could be misconstrued...)
[19:20] Heartun Breaker: yes
[19:21] Cocoanut Koala: ok, guys, i think you should take up jason's offer
[19:21] Cocoanut Koala: and get the thing going
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: well I don't want this to be the property of one person sorry
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: that's how things always go here
[19:21] Heartun Breaker: what about metaverselaw.com?
[19:21] Cocoanut Koala: esp. the lawyers among us
[19:21] Little Gray: JJason, the connection to RL jurisprudence is a hot topic .. bar association is adobpting RL bylaws so it can have meets to vote and decide whether SL bar members must be rl attorneys, if attorneys/non-attorney need to be distinguished, and if RL bar associations need to be notified.
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: I mean, can't a new one be made?
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: or an existing moribund forum like homepage
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: I realize you are trying to be helpful
[19:22] Cocoanut Koala: well it costs money, doesn't it? to make one?
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: but this is what always happens here, somebody does the work, somebody is helpful, somebody takes over
[19:22] Cocoanut Koala: Hiya khamon!
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: and process itself is just as important
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: no, they are free
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: you can find them
[19:22] Cocoanut Koala: personally I think we are talking about two entirely different things here
[19:22] Cocoanut Koala: people are talking about systems to resolve disputes between themselves and other residents
[19:23] Cocoanut Koala: whereas I am more interested in resolving disuputes between Lindens and residents
[19:23] JJason Jedburgh: It is not my wish to "take over" - to be frank, I don't have the time in any case. Only a suggestion which is, however improbable, made altruistically...
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: well they are related
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: and yes, no one is talking about that
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: on the blob
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: I hear you Jjason
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: but I don't know you, I have no way of determining your motives
[19:23] Cocoanut Koala: well, i'll go along with whatever y'all decide, let me know
[19:23] Cocoanut Koala: im not good at starting things up
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: you IM'd me and said "I'd like to observe this meeting" but then you have many very detailed and specific proposals and an offer to run the forums
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: that's all
[19:24] Cocoanut Koala: just piping up on them
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: it's a generic problem
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: it's like the way Neualtenberg owns this
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: they will succeed in owning it further just by having the forums
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: if anything, we should all go there and take them up on some of their bad ideas
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: like the foreiting of property
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: banning
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: that's all there is
[19:24] Cocoanut Koala: (nevermore)
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: but what all these systems come down to is
[19:25] JJason Jedburgh: apologies Prokofy, I'm not offering to run the forums. I merely have a domain that might be thematically apropriate to hang the wiki or whatever off... Merely suggesting, not wishing to be at all imperious here ;)
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: I appreciate where you are coming from
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: I am trying to avoid Angel Fluffy situations
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: or Gwyn situations
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: or Name an Avatar situations
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: many will be leery of Prok situations
[19:26] Cocoanut Koala: well, it has to be SOMEBODYs domain, doesn't it?
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: I personally would never offer a blog for that reason
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: that's why making a generic Yahoo group is sometimes better
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: why a domain?
[19:26] Cocoanut Koala: oh
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: we have no content
[19:26] Cocoanut Koala: U dont know, i dont understand these techy things
[19:26] JJason Jedburgh: I only IMd you Prokofy about observing this meeting, because I didn't know the protocol for participation. somehow I got a broadcast from you saying it was on, and wasn't sure of the "status" of this. Its my naivety only.
[19:26] Little Gray: well i think some of the ideas of a 'better business bureau' could be incorporated as a form of enforcement/punishment .. a list of AAA rated businesses and a list of business with a 'Poor Reputation"
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: oh ok well ilt's open as a free for all discussion
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: Little Gray
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: before you go proposing that
[19:26] Cocoanut Koala: well
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: where the FIC and other elites are constantly proposing that
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: I'd really have to urge you to read the history on that here
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: to make a whitelist of themselves
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: to free themselves from obligations
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: ESC and the rest
[19:27] Cocoanut Koala: its kind of
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: it's a very difficult and old story
[19:27] Cocoanut Koala: a tricky thing, the BBB
[19:27] Little Gray: hmm .. Maybe NEGATIVE ratings for groups and commerical enterprises (real estate, services, products)
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: right now this one woman proposed it and took it over
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: and drove everyone nuts
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: and then didn't do it
[19:27] Cocoanut Koala: (and by the way, LL, last I looked, had an "unfavorable" rating by the rl BBB)
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: beause she got busy in RL
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: she had taken it on as a way to enhance her company's presence here no doubt
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: but it proved a lot of work
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: so...she left it to Gwyn, who just showed up
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: and someone else who hasn't done any open meetings on it
[19:28] Cocoanut Koala: gwyn has a bbb?
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: you have to be in the invited group
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: no
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: I mean yes
[19:28] Cocoanut Koala: i dont want to be beholden to bbb people
[19:28] Heartun Breaker: Ok, I just registered MetaverseLaw.com if we want to run it.
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: the Nberg forums
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: Gwyn has not been sitting on her hands Coco
[19:28] Cocoanut Koala: got knows she hasn't
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: Heartun, that's not how to shanghai people
[19:28] Cocoanut Koala: she types more than you do
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: "Oh, I registered the domain"
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: first you have to have some likemindedness
[19:28] Heartun Breaker: I wasn't trying to Shanghai
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: I mean, I dunno, do what you want
[19:28] Cocoanut Koala: they are trying to help
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: but it always ends the same way
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: you don't even have agreement even among 6 people sitting here
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: about what is needed
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: it's worth trying to establish that first
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: I personally think a wiki on SL Law is a bust
[19:29] Heartun Breaker: I'm sorry I don't have ProkofyUniverse.com
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: no one will have the time for it
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: those who do will grab it
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: I don't want ProkofyUniverse.com
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: you yourself will not do Heartun.com
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: that's the roblem
[19:29] Heartun Breaker: one blog at a time
[19:29] Prokofy Neva: try to see the work involved
[19:29] Cocoanut Koala: well I'm awful antsy, I'm having to redo a house package I forgot to put scripts in the bathroom doors
[19:29] Cocoanut Koala: so I'm off!
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: I started the police blotter forum and was driven crazy by griefers and spammers
[19:30] Cocoanut Koala: but good talking to y'all
[19:30] Heartun Breaker: I already have HeartunBreaker.com lol
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: I finally wiped it totally
[19:30] Heartun Breaker: and it is live!
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: ok thanks for coming Coco
[19:30] Cocoanut Koala: by1
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: Heartun,k no one can stop you from putting up something you feel is helpful
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: so go for it, get Jjason to write long essays on it
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: Little Gray, again, the negrates were done
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: for years
[19:30] Khamon Fate: wrong button
[19:30] JJason Jedburgh: sorry, I didn't mean to be verbose...
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: then cancelled under clamouring from the FIC
[19:30] Heartun Breaker: Dude, what URL do you think would be best?
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: oh I can top you on verbosity!
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: lol
[19:31] Little Gray: night CoCoanut
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: I don't think a URL would be best?
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: jsut becauase there is no there there?
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: First let's start with this:
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: is there a forums already existingt that anyone wuold find accessible
[19:31] JJason Jedburgh: farewell those of you departing now
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: I mention Clubside's just because his is built and done
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: and it has categories and already has long threads on justice
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: and he's fairly neutral to all this
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: I wouldn't go to SC
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: then
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: if you see that you have even 6 people having even 6 things to say
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: then you create something more elaborate
[19:32] JJason Jedburgh: Prokofy, doesn't this ultimately need to be a round table real life sit down with Linden execs in San Fran?
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: well I would go slow on that
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: until you had a very well defined agenda
[19:32] Heartun Breaker: tell them what we want
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: We have had some years of trying to engage them that way
[19:32] Khamon Fate: lemme tell you how that goes
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: in fact I have to say, the metaverse justice watch thing ridiculed by many
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: was just that
[19:32] Khamon Fate: lindens: tell us what to do
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: when 20 of us got them to the table
[19:32] Khamon Fate: us: okay do this then this then that
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: and you get them to the table by force
[19:33] Prokofy Neva: we forced them to publicize their code of conduct for employees
[19:33] Khamon Fate: lindens: okay we're not doing that now tell us what to do
[19:33] JJason Jedburgh: it will surely only work if the lindens agree to code specific features into the interface software that support the operation of a de facto legal system for resolving disputes. that would be where the pedal hits the metal for whatever underlying ideology we agree on. the coalface for dispensing justice. Enforcement....
[19:33] Little Gray just notices this meeting is being held in a dam
[19:33] Prokofy Neva: Lindens will not come to a round table with a resident-selected group any more tho
[19:33] Prokofy Neva: their SL Views, their community tables
[19:33] Prokofy Neva: they come to round tables with THEIR selection
[19:33] Khamon Fate: and they still don't really listen
[19:33] Khamon Fate: or change their minds
[19:33] Khamon Fate: or make plans
[19:33] Heartun Breaker: Ok, why not put out press releases to the media who have covered the "Anshe is rich" story ... and give them a "young freedom fighters" story?
[19:34] Prokofy Neva: Heartun, have you noticed that they already cover that story?
[19:34] Prokofy Neva: every outlet in the game blogging sphere and the RL media even
[19:34] Heartun Breaker: News loves a follow up... and loves knocking down that which they have brought up
[19:34] Prokofy Neva: which is a total concoction
[19:34] Prokofy Neva: has the SL Liberation Army story
[19:34] Prokofy Neva: yes well some do, not CNET or Reuters
[19:34] Prokofy Neva: they need to keep propping it up
[19:34] Prokofy Neva: which ones are on the bubble burst cycle?
[19:35] Khamon Fate: there's always someone else to make a million dollars
[19:35] Heartun Breaker: How about Business 2.0, and Forbes?
[19:35] Prokofy Neva: Jjason, when you say this: " it will surely only work if the lindens agree to code specific features into the interface software that support the operation of a de facto legal system for resolving disputes. "
[19:35] Prokofy Neva: and doing it WITH THEIR FRIENDS
[19:35] Prokofy Neva: their coding friends from beta
[19:35] Prokofy Neva: can you see that they are ALREADY doing this
[19:35] Prokofy Neva: their SL views peeps like Lordfly
[19:35] Prokofy Neva: not with us because we care
[19:35] Little Gray: i would like to state a protest .. have all kinds of diferent signs and slogans .. and go some place held open for meetings and call it a "Residents for Free Speech" rally ... not sure it would have any purpose except maybe to publicise the issues, raise awareness
[19:35] Prokofy Neva: not with this or that community with clout
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: not with anything representative
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: but just how they want to do it
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: read their blogs and stuff
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: well I think that would be good
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: they won't stop that
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: it will be ignored by most people lol but it's worth doing regularly
[19:36] Heartun Breaker: you're typing a lot... like you are threatened Prok
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: I used to call for the formation of a Hyde Park
[19:36] Khamon Fate: stop it? they would sell popcorn
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: to show up on Linden land Tuesdays at 3 with protest signs on the issues of the day
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: just to get the press used to that idea
[19:37] Prokofy Neva: that if it is Tuesday, we are there protesting the latest bannings
[19:37] Prokofy Neva: people used to do that in the welcome areas
[19:37] Prokofy Neva: and even on that screenshot thing htey used to have
[19:37] Prokofy Neva: but they now tell you to take down signs
[19:37] Heartun Breaker: the welcome areas got very lame when Welcome Island opened up
[19:37] Heartun Breaker: Jeska did that
[19:37] Prokofy Neva: yes Heartun
[19:37] Prokofy Neva: no accident comrade
[19:37] Khamon Fate: they've gotten lots of good press out of resident protests because THEY write the press releases
[19:37] Little Gray: yeah Prokofy .. I'd be down with that if you wanted to start up against .. would announce it as an Avatar Civil Liberties Union event too
[19:37] Heartun Breaker: I know
[19:37] Prokofy Neva: so how to jazz them up?
[19:37] Heartun Breaker: ACLU?
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: but we all need to brand
[19:38] Little Gray: gotta get my "Avatars for the Ethical Treatment of Furries" sign made
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: lol Well Little Gray let me point out that you need to brand
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: so let's announce it as a Fair Play event
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: or a whatever event
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: see this is what I mean
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: everyone wants branding, traffic, business, projects to show to RL bosses
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: it's very hard with all this tugging of the blanket
[19:38] Little Gray: yeah .. fair play that's fine whatever .. I'll put an ACLU sticker on the back of my protest sign
[19:39] Little Gray: and hand out ACLU T-Shirts
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: well Little Gray you are very misleading as we discussed
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: you do not represent the ACLU
[19:39] Heartun Breaker: afk, pp... beer... chips
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: you are not designated by that national organization to come here
[19:39] JJason Jedburgh: well, a low key practical suggestion here might be to create a "justice" group. membership of the group emanates from this de facto council, right here and now. the goal is to create an inworld forum for the generation of a bill of rights and a basis for a rule of law. Additional members are admited by a vote of existing members, and allowed byt he criterion of demonstrated maturity of judgment (difficult to put meaning around that one, i know). But this would at least be an achievable start. Something practical. Has it been done before? would it have value?
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: you are one explorer from one board in one chapter
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: and that shouldn't be muddled continually
[19:39] Little Gray: AVATAR CIVIL RIGHTS UNION!!
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: well but it has the same acronym
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: and you are blurring the distinctions then
[19:40] Khamon Fate: wow they really did increase the number of chat characters
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: I hate all this lighting and bouncing
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: the focus is for the birds now
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: they highlight things they THINK I want to press on
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: the Guiding Hand
[19:40] Little Gray: need by-laws and a forum for discussing ideas over the long term, Jjason
[19:41] Little Gray: er eventually anyway
[19:41] Little Gray: because it has to be reputable
[19:42] Khamon Fate: how are we going to demand rights? we're not even allowed to defend outselves
[19:42] JJason Jedburgh: can't it be self regulating (the group). If people get bored or exasperated tey can opt out and leave it. But bulletin messages to the group can at least benefit all by alerting us to infractions of widespread significance or representative poignancy...It can also be the nucleus of an eventual "supreme court"
[19:42] Little Gray: before its formed, maybe it should be announced as an event, as well so that people can't say it was formed by a small group without participation from broader sl community
[19:42] JJason Jedburgh: the fact is, *some* kind of practical solution is required now, to bridge the period immediately following the cessation of the abuse report regime.
[19:43] JJason Jedburgh: am I mistaken?
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: well one of the reasons I hold these discussions every week is that the people coming to them changes constantly
[19:43] Little Gray: maybe even notices sent out to the gorean overlord, CDS, etc
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: people are always starting things and saying "we represent the community"
[19:43] Heartun Breaker: back
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: I mean look at the four BBBs that have gotten started in the 2 years I've been here
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: all discredited
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: all defunct
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: all stupid
[19:43] Little Gray: but I'm sure Prokofy has had a lot of experience with de facto judicial groups forming up
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: and I think the moral of the story is, you cannot create superstructures searchign for a base
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: well I have indeed in RL and SL
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: and the point is you don't have the basics here
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: you do not have likemindedness
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: agreement on even 6 things
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: remember earlier we talked about the agenda
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: if you had a meeting with Philip
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: what are the 6 things to stress about the rule of law?
[19:44] Khamon Fate: rag me to hell for saying it but my general observation is that most people here are just playing a game and don't give a shit about law or democracy or rights
[19:44] Khamon Fate: can i say shit here?
[19:44] JJason Jedburgh: so creating a group would perhaps contribute some kind of useful "consistency" and "persistency" in the thinking and operational impact of the work Prokofy is doing in this particular meeting forum?
[19:44] Heartun Breaker: this is a separatists medium, I agree, Prokofy... but we do all share some common desires and rights.
[19:44] Khamon Fate: there are so few pg sims left
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: and for getting the 6 things, you need what amounts to a Constituent assembly
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: well there are already so many law groups
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: the SL Bar Association thinks they should own this
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: the Law Society with its one sole officer thinks he should own it
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: etc
[19:45] JJason Jedburgh: the group will prevail (if that's the right word) only if enough people find the ideas it embodies to be attractive and aspirationally valid. that will be the necessary "check and balance" on it.
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: that's why I try to keep holding it over and over again as a looser concept
[19:45] Little Gray: theres no reason why formal RL bylaws could be adopted so that any official actions are actually the result of a consensus
[19:45] Khamon Fate: how many is enough people?
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: Have you ever seen the history of the Metaverse Justice Watch?
[19:45] Heartun Breaker: the Lindens, in turning over law enforcement... must turn over law interpretation. It is a given. And the core of the problem.
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: forma group, and watch v-5 invade it, grief it, and paralyze it
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: yes Heartun
[19:46] Prokofy Neva: but they still hold the strings on the laws THEY want
[19:46] Prokofy Neva: did you see how they put it?
[19:46] Khamon Fate: can i stop branding now or do we have to do this all the time?
[19:46] Prokofy Neva: "Civic Center replaces the section formerly known as the Police Blotter, which had become too provincial for the needs of this expanding, changing world…Read more."
Posted by: Siggy | December 18, 2006 at 01:09 PM
Who is this Gorean overlord of which you speak?
Posted by: Lorelei Patel | December 18, 2006 at 06:14 PM
Ah, Prokofy, as usual, you really overestimate myself :)
Chili Carson's SL Chamber of Commerce (http://slcocincubator.info) is "mostly dormant". Like most of the things in SL, it needs a great dose of enthusiasm, stubbornness, and persistence to keep it going. Chili started it well — but sadly had other things, RL-wise, to do — and, to the best of my knowledge, it is not truly "operational" — yet. It might be, in the future, but I hardly expect that to happen.
In any case, it's pretty obvious that I won't be "running it" and much less "my people" — we're too busy to take really care about it. SL is simply too big. Instead, I'm focusing more on the 2-sim community of 65 people at Neufreistadt/Colonia Nova, which, for its tiny size, generates more comments-per-minute than any thread on the LL forums ;) (and very likely on other forums as well!) What might be interesting is the "CDS Traders' Association" — starting small, bottom up, from a handful of shop owners and business owners on a strictly local base, but which have a huge advantage — a legal system that can enforce what the Traders' Association establishes.
Sure, the "legal system" is in hefty discussion, and it'll take a few months to sort it out. Like everything else at Neufreistadt/Colonia Nova, too much is being discussed, too little is actually done, but when it is done, it's done *properly*. Obviously enough, there is nothing to "fear" from a group of 65 people sitting somewhere in the middle of the ocean, far from everything and everyone, and the likeliness of "affecting" anything else in the SL world is as probably as having a national decree at the Republic of San Remo making the front page of, say, the Wall Street Journal :)
In any case, sooner or later the Lindens will indeed allow "local regulation" at the Estate level. What will happen with "our people" is that we'll simply say to whomever cares to stop by: "well, so now we may take care of our own Abuse Reports. Hoorah. We've been handling internal ARs (not LL ones!) for the past two years, and have quite an experience in what works and what won't. So, yes, we can say that things are not so easy to do as most people think they are." Especially if it's done in a democratic way — the autocrats elsewhere will have a much easier route to travel. In the places where there is "one man, one vote — the Estate owner is the man, he's got the vote" it'll be way too easy to establish a simple "code of laws" that anyone has to obey — or else.
Under democratic institutions that's way harder, since people have learn to compromise first on common rules they're willing to abide to. And this is way harder than people think it is. If 65 cannot agree on a common set of rules — what about 2 millions? (or even 100,000, the point remains) It's absolutely impossible to believe that something "globally" could be done that includes everybody's opinion... so very likely what this all means is that the autocrats will have more power on their Estates (they're paying for it), and the landless will have to conform to the *real* Golden Rule of SL — "whoever has the gold, makes the rules".
Which is fair enough!
Posted by: Gwyneth Llewelyn | December 19, 2006 at 06:53 AM
Gwyn,
It's silly that you take my comments here as only relating to the Chamber of Commerce, yet another moribund BBB experiment -- and it's a good thing, because a BBB is not really what SL needs right now, and each one that gets started is a self-serving enterprise, designed either as a business lobby to whitelist some and blacklist others for political or economic rivalry issues, or to enable an individual or group to enhance their reputations by shining in a good deed -- all bad motivations, which is why it never works.
But this: "I'm focusing more on the 2-sim community of 65 people at Neufreistadt/Colonia Nova, which, for its tiny size, generates more comments-per-minute than any thread on the LL forums ;)" -- is where I'm pointing out that you ARE taking over. Beavering away at this socialism-on-one sim exercise is *exactly* how you pawn the politics and law of SL -- and by gathering various (even if very contentious) judges, lawyers, factions etc around you. No one can complain, exactly, if they don't have the time, treasure, and talent to make an alternative.
Except...I do, because I think any powers that pwn should be questioned.
The idea that a little island nation in the sea can have no effect with its sectarian ideas is pretty silly, Gwyn, and you know better. All you have to do is think of Cuba, and the havoc it has wrecked on its neighbours and the UN, keeping many otherwise intelligent people snookered with the idea that its free vaccinations for kids is in fact even working, and that such health care can trump other rights like freedom of expression (required to tell the truth about their corrupt and badly working health system).
No, please don't tell me once again that there are so many factions in Frieswiththat you can't claim it is socialist; it is socialist, in the sense that a small group of people keep deciding the society.
The abuse report at the estate level is one thing -- but that's not where most clashes and conflicts here. They don't have a viable plan for the Mainland that I can see.
I'm certain that two million will actually find it easier than the 65. Why? Because the 65 contains some very intensive and obsessive contrarian sectarians. Once you dilute that out with some more normal people more willing to use common sense to arrive at common denominators, it will scale better.
Obviously, America works, and Portugal works, even with their millions of people and different scale. They all have common denominators on the rule of law, one system with more protection of freedom of speech, another with less, but both democracies in the modern world. Don't wave numbers as an example of why things can't work, especially in a synthetic world where so much is controlled by code-as-law.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | December 19, 2006 at 09:34 AM
Local resolution unsettles me. I can imagine the Lab going for it though- less front-line customer service needed, and it fits in with this ever receding horizon of the distributed SL world that's always on King Philip's radar.
Right now you can say, well at least you can teleport away, and nobody is forced to stay in these places. What if there's some other change of policy about the rights of your avatar? I remember that vote proposal for unremovable BDSM collars to make D/s roleplay more convincing- it was pushed back because it broke some (unwritten?) rule about avatar freedom. What happens when something like that is passed, combined with local "rule" because the "game gods" don't make policy but sit back and let people vote on what they like?
I hope it doesn't come to that.
Posted by: Ace Albion | December 19, 2006 at 10:57 AM
I wouldn't worry, Ace. There's a reason there's so many Gorean sims. Know what it is? The leader of one thinks the leader of every other sim has got it completely wrong. There have been talks about coordinating amongst the Gorean sims, but it has yet to happen and probably won't as long as each one thinks they have it right and everyone else has it wrong.
Did you ever see Monty Python's Life of Brian? Remember the People's Front of Judea, the People's Popular Front of Judea and the Judean People's Front? It's a lot like that. Which is why I asked above, "who is this Gorean overlord?" I can't picture a day when all the Gorean sims would come together and appoint one king to rule them all.
Posted by: Lorelei Patel | December 19, 2006 at 12:39 PM
Gor is merely a speeded-up and compressed version of the whole architecture of Second Life -- totalitarianisms can only spawn other little totalitarianisms. That's why when the Soviet Union broke up, most of the countries were even more opppressive than the USSR was -- and that's why endlessly providing local dispute settlement and local governance only *seems* like liberalism and freedom at first blush.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | December 19, 2006 at 12:47 PM
It's not specifically Goreans or whatever that bother me, as much as the general idea of special interest groups who, while a small minority, are collectively larger than the huge amount of other people who aren't organised because they're just live-and-let living. I have friends in the Gor and BDSM areas, and I'm well aware of the parochial politics of online Goreans.
Imagine a social experiment continent where you have to wear an id badge to be a member. An id badge that you clicked "allow to take my money" for some automated local taxation system. Then imagine some proposal like unremovable attachments got passed for an unrelated reason (like BDSM collar roleplay) So only officers of the group can unlock that badge from your avatar's lapel, and see the potential for abuse down the line. The only thing stopping that right now is this idea at Linden Lab that you control your avatar- I think the proposal about attachments had a lot of visibilty and backing, so they weren't all shouting "splitter!"
Yes it's tinfoil hat stuff, I'd just rather not start off down that road at all. This is one example based on a couple of things I remember from voting proposals, that's all. My main point is, for all we can talk about local conflict resolution, or by-laws or community standards at sim/continent level, we sill rely on the game-gods at Linden Lab to hold out their hand and say "No. Too Much."
Can you imagine how awful SL would be if absolutely anything could be passed by votes? There's a super geeky parlour game I can't remember the name of, which starts with two or so rules, and the game is to vote in new rules for the game. The winner is the last person to make a new rule that completely paralyses the game. I'm guessing it's a metaphor.
I'm not building a fortress and buying assault rifles and tinned beans just yet. It's just one thing that nags me about the politisation(?) of a virtual world. Mostly I just want to know I can log in without *too* many rules about this and that, or find something I ticked or clicked months ago come back to bite me, or find some smug self serving school prefect lording it over me.
Can I get some kind of constitutional guarantee for that?
Posted by: Ace Albion | December 20, 2006 at 06:05 AM
yes, Ace, I totally agree, and no, it's not about a tinfoil hat, because we already see how it plays out.
Take a simple thing like "snow in Dreamland" and the aggressive obedience and beating up of dissenters this entails. There's no objective reason why snow has to be imposed on everybody, even those who own whole sims that they simply don't want changed to tropical even 1 week of the year. If staff have to flip a switch, they can just NOT flip a switch.
Yet those who object to this blanket "democracy" of the majoritarian, aggressive community, are pummelled to death and subjected to every specious reason for having to endure this snow. A community really has to be judged on how well it takes care of its minorities.
My particularly strong objecting to Gor, BDSM, and the Lindens who coddle them is that contrasted with the bulk of the population, they are minorities. Yet they try to wrestle to the ground the majority invoking their liberal guilt.
It's one thing to tolerate a minority; it's another thing to allow them to use manipulative methods to infect an entire system.
That's how I view Angel Fluffy's take-over of the "pruning" of the Voting system. That's how I view the Gor takeover of Active Worlds. That's how I view the efforts of somone like Syngen in this meeting on disputes who won't even *allow* a critical discussion of Gor and begins to whine that it is "off topic" -- as if suppression of the majority's will to be free, not have slaves, and not use violence is somehow "off topic".
Any BDSM group that wants to inflict on the entire population of SL objects that cannot be removed, that one avatar can place on another, is infecting a system with their lifestyle and their local goals. That's wrong. I don't want a collar or anything on me placed by another; most do not. Let them devise their own RP methods and gadgets without trying to infect the entire client and its commands and permissions.
The geek paralysis by vote is something we already have in SL called "the Feature Voting Tool" where no one can vote "no".
Federal, constitutional guarantees of civil and political liberties are the backbone of a demcratic, liberal, open society. Philip's notions of local tribal customs and code-as-law throws us back to the Dark Ages.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | December 20, 2006 at 06:53 AM
Has any proposal generated in the feature voting tool ever come to pass? I wrote it off as being as useless as tits on a chicken some time ago.
Posted by: Lorelei Patel | December 20, 2006 at 12:51
HE POSTED BRACKETS!!!