Search and...Destroy?

Pretty soon, you'll be able not only to hunt for squids on SEARCH, but also find avatars who are squids.

Here's another tumbling and incoherent office hour, where we're all scrolling at once. Robin tells us about plans to change the SEARCH -- and I'd recommend also going to hear Jeska with more details -- although more than half-way through, she basically just said "it's a Google box" however Khamon will be delighted to hear she says distinctly, "You'll be able to search people's profiles."

What's interesting to me is that Robin is hinting (though not actually confirming) that LL might NOT take out traffic results -- that this might be *one* of the indices used to make up this Google-like search. Hmm, we'll have to get the goods on this.

Robin also clarifies some issues on gaming/gambling -- but not to everyone's satisfaction, of course.

Age verification is definitely coming -- and other kinds of things, not specified, which will also "build trust". LL is getting out of the business of establishing social mores (note that correct word here! not "moorings" lol!) and building "tools". Of course the open question is -- can you build social mores with tools lol? No!

Athena Sterling: hello Angelo
Aargle Zymurgy: hi Angelo
Aargle Zymurgy: Zoya! hi!
Angelo Linden: hey aargle
Zoya Moore: Hiya
Athena Sterling: my sweet zoya!
Zoya Moore: hiya hun
Aargle Zymurgy: prokofy, actually, I don't think we were ever face-to-face, but we IM' da couple times
Jessica Holyoke: bling off
Jessica Holyoke: /bling off
Robin Linden: he everyone
Jessica Holyoke: hi Robin
Aargle Zymurgy: hi Robin
Athena Sterling: hello Robin
Iwana Fouquet: hey
Akasha Voom: hi :)
Angelo Linden: hi robin
Robin Linden: Hey Prokofy - sorry I missed you on Sunday. I looked all over for you to have that conversation.
Angelo Linden: nice new outfit, robin
Robin Linden: Thanks! I didn't have a chance to plan an agenda. Is there something specific you'd like to speak about?
Aargle Zymurgy: well, actually, yes. :-)
Akasha Voom: organizing the search results :)
Jessica Holyoke: Now I have a general question
Jessica Holyoke: that you might be interested in hearing the results from the group robin
Aargle Zymurgy: Iwana and I both asked you similar questions at 2 different times, and you said you'd get back to us with answer. I didn't know if the answer was ready or not.
Robin Linden: The one thing I would like to say is that I don't want to answer support questions.
Robin Linden: Aargle - remind me again what your question wasy?
Robin Linden: *was
Robin Linden: About gambling games, yes?
Aargle Zymurgy: you were going to check with your compliance lawyer about the validity of games played for contest purposes... where the winner wasn't "determined by chance" as described in the blog.
Robin Linden: Yes. I spoke with our general counsel about that.
Robin Linden: You should make sure that any contest you set up meets the law where you live.
Robin Linden: Contests and sweepstakes laws vary all over the US.
Aargle Zymurgy: yes, and, I assume, laws governing arcades and prizes given like at Chuck E. Cheeses
Robin Linden: It's also possible that if a sweepstakes is illegal where you live, as they are in some states, that at some point we'd be required to take them down.
Jessica Holyoke: do you keep address information on residents based on IP?
Iwana Fouquet: but, if LL return skill games & warn us...
Robin Linden: But as it relates to the anti-gambling policy, sweepstakes don't fall under the policy.
Aargle Zymurgy: well, I guess there is sort of a new form of griefing that's arrived: griefing by linden.
Athena Sterling: i do have to agree with Aargle's point
Aargle Zymurgy: put in a bogus claim of gambling against someone....
Aargle Zymurgy: and hope that someone will arrive to tear down someone's club because they don't have time to check to see if the games are TOS compliant.
Robin Linden: We're following up on complaints about games removed in error.
Iwana Fouquet: i feel quite bullied by 'the big guys'
Ciaran Laval: What should we do if someone leaves gambling devices on our land Robin, someone left a sploder on mine I just returned it as I didn't want to waste the abuse teams time
Aargle Zymurgy: I'm the one game maker here... there are others. we're all al little frustrated that we make games that are compliant, but our customers are panicking.
Athena Sterling: as per a conversation i had with Harry, each linden is able to return any such game based on there own viewpoint of the new policy. i have had one Linden say a game was ok, then another return a day later to return it saying it was a gambling machine.
Athena Sterling: when in fact, all games we had, didn't fit as the outcome of the game was detmined by the players own action, nothing else.
Aargle Zymurgy: please, keep in mind, I'm not here to complain... I want to try to find a way to help the situation in any way.
Athena Sterling: i guess what i would like to see, is that if it is a LAW now, to have things more clearly laid out in the open about all of it.
Robin Linden: We're putting together a list of games that the compliance lawyer has decided are ok. It's a 'white list'
Wyn Galbraith waits for rez
Athena Sterling: as it seems, noone is really sure.
Robin Linden: I've told the enforcement group only to return things to inventory.
Robin Linden: We're sure about a lot of them, but not all.
Aargle Zymurgy: Robin, that sounds great.
Athena Sterling: that would be wonderful Robin, is there also a way to submit new games to be reviewed?
Robin Linden: And of course people make minor changes to games to try to bring them in line with the policy but we don't see them.
Athena Sterling: well i understand, but some of us are honest, and tring to stay clean.
Robin Linden: Unfortunately our compliance attorney is in the midst of a move from the east coast to the west coast
Robin Linden: we're doing the best we can to move ahead quickly, but I'm sure it's been frustrating waiting for answers
Athena Sterling: very :(
Zoya Moore: indeed
Robin Linden: Let's go back to the beginning - Akasha said something about search, and Jessica said something about search results.
You: Hi, Robin, sorry I missed you at SLCC, I didn't get back from the Chicago equivalent of outer Queens until noon, but let me ask now if you have more to say about the trust system of SL, what steps LL envisions beyond age verification which is described as a "first step"?
Jessica Holyoke: my question was completely different
Robin Linden: OK. Let's answer Akasha first, then Jessica, then Prok.
Akasha Voom: :) I asked if we could organize search results. They're all over the place :)
Robin Linden: That should about fill up the time, I think.
Aargle Zymurgy: I crashed hard... my last thing: I've got 3 games out of significance and a new 4th one. if there is any information I can provide to you for the white list, please let me know.
You: Also I wanted to ask about "SL Views"-- how many are in it, what is it for, will it ever publicize its conversations, and what that means about trust -- that it can only be done face-to-face with NDAs?!
Robin Linden: We're building a new search tool. It will index from a variety of places and give you one set of search returns for key words.
Iwana Fouquet: i'm still scared that if a Linden 'thinks' a game is illegal, when its not, i'll be suspended
Robin Linden: Aargle - I'm trying really hard to get out of the business of gambling enforcement.
You: "Better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission" I always say Iwana.
Aargle Zymurgy: LOL... I understand... just send me to who would like it to be his/her business. :-)
Robin Linden: I'm going to pass it all on to Ken when he gets here.
Athena Sterling: lol, Prokofy
Khamon Fate: I thought you were still sleeping on a train.
Robin Linden: I can't wait!!!
Jessica Holyoke: Ken linden?
Ciaran Laval: So the search results?
Robin Linden: Anyway, are there more questions about search?
Khamon Fate: Oh Heavens
Robin Linden: Jessica, I don't know what his Linden name is.
You: hopes he doesn't dress up like the doll named after him
Khamon Fate: SEARCH!
Aargle Zymurgy: will searches allow wildcards?
You: Robin, what indices will you be using??
Khamon Fate: Did you address searchable profiles? That's my question.
Akasha Voom: there is some kind of an iconography system, could we group them by type, then by alphabetical order?
Robin Linden: Wow. I just told you about everything I know about search.
Ciaran Laval: lol
You: uh oh
Akasha Voom: :)
Khamon Fate: I'll read the transcript then
Robin Linden: It sits on a GSA (google search appliance) and it looks like google to me
Ciaran Laval: With the google adwords on one side?
Athena Sterling: lol
Robin Linden: Classified ads will be on one side.
You: so its turns up Wikipedia's equivalent in SL on every search
Jessica Holyoke: but that's future search isn't it? what's in the works?
Khamon Fate: Ask Jarod what Googling really means ha ha ha
Robin Linden: We're developing the algorithms to be specific to Second Life
Robin Linden: So for example, what do you think the equivalent of links would be?
Khamon Fate: That means profile information *can* be searchable.
Robin Linden: Yes Khamon.
Ciaran Laval: slurl do I get a cookie
Khamon Fate <<< happy
You: SLURLS
You: can be, but will be Khamon?
Robin Linden: One idea was that picks would be one equivalent of links.
Iwana Fouquet: Talking about search, is there an easier way to search parcel types for sale?
Robin Linden: SLURLs will show up
Khamon Fate: YES, good idea that
Ciaran Laval: Is this going to be linked to be able to search slurl's from a web browser?
Khamon Fate: Picks, descriptions, interest checkboxes
Robin Linden: Yes, I believe so Ciaran, although that might be in the next iteration.
Ciaran Laval: I mean is it all one big new package coming or is it going to be done in stages?
Kitty Barnett: the only way I see how search in SL would be accurate is with resident feedback and a way to get rid of bad feedback.... which would require far too much LL involvement to be doable :|
Ciaran Laval: lol k Robin you're ahead of me :)
Robin Linden: It will be in 2-3 phases. I don't have the actual plan in front of me.
Khamon Fate: It's Robin's job to be ahead of the curve.
Ciaran Laval: She's good at her job
Robin Linden: I think it will index text fields - so for example it will pick up data from parcel descriptions, profiles, event descriptions
Robin Linden: etc.
Wyn Galbraith: Robin is a surfer ;)
Khamon Fate: And a world traveler
Jessica Holyoke: She's like Macgyver
Khamon Fate: or Macguyver
Khamon Fate: mcgiver
Wyn Galbraith: Keeps ducktape and paperclips handy.
Robin Linden: :P
Khamon Fate: What was that movie about the future where the guy had a paper clip and stuff?
Robin Linden: Any other questions about search? Just don't get into too much detail...
Athena Sterling: will we be able to opt out of search results? for say profiles and land descriptions?
Robin Linden: For me the biggest challenge is advertising.
Robin Linden: That's why I asked you all about ads last week.
Khamon Fate: Will the actual search button be located on the top or bottom of the window?
Wyn Galbraith has fixed printers with ducktape, paperclips and rubberbands.
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha ha ha ha
Robin Linden: And whether or not to bring RL ads into search.
You: are you saying classifieds is mixed in? will there still be $30 Search ads from parcels?
Robin Linden: That won't happen for a while.
Robin Linden: If ever!!!
Ciaran Laval: I want RL ads
Khamon Fate: RL ads are fine with me
Khamon Fate: If they pay for them
Robin Linden: Prokofy: classifieds will be in 'paid ad' positions on the right hand side of the page.
Akasha Voom: Well RL brands are slowly moving into SL, so it's natural to have RL ads :)
Robin Linden: The question about L$30 for parcel listings is a good one, and it's on my list of open questions.
Khamon Fate: So it'll be like reading Stratics without a paid account
Robin Linden: No banner ads, evah!
You: people use the $30 search ads and search from search places more than classifieds Robin
Athena Sterling: will we be able to opt out of the search results? for either profile or parcels?
Ciaran Laval: As an aside can land sales get their own section, they mess up the rentals section
Iwana Fouquet: wwe need a way to search land sales by sim, green,snow, min/max size....
Khamon Fate: But then you could charge us a weekly sink to not see the banners
Robin Linden: Good qustion Athena - let me find out.
Athena Sterling: kk
Khamon Fate: You could then print and sell more money
Robin Linden: If all the search results are in one place Ciaran, I'm not sure it will make that destinction.
Khamon Fate: Oh so there'll only be one tab?
Ciaran Laval: Ye Gods no categories!
Robin Linden: Iwana - maybe you use those terms in one search string
Khamon Fate: Kind of like communications are now?
You: yeah this sounds awful, maybe what's not broken now shouldn't be fixed
Robin Linden: Khamon - I think that's the plan but please don't hold me to that.
Robin Linden: Anyone who publishes that search has only one tab has to do so knowing that I never said that.
Khamon Fate: Wull that'll work okay if we have a filter drop down
Iwana Fouquet: in land sales tab?
Khamon Fate: So when we want to only see profiles or places or events, we can do that.
Ciaran Laval: Ok let's not get too hung up on the characteristics just yet
Robin Linden: Like I said, the prototype I saw looks like google.
Dimitrio Lewis: is Google involved?
Poison Obscure: sorry I don't understand; I'm French
Khamon Fate: If we don't input our ideas now Cairan, it'll be too late.
Robin Linden: We can send your ideas to the design team.
Khamon Fate: LL has never turned down input.
Robin Linden: No Dimitrio. Only to the extent that they sell the server.
Khamon Fate: They can say no.
Iwana Fouquet: SLoogle :)
Khamon Fate: ha ha They do say no.
Robin Linden: Bonjour Poison!
Wyn Galbraith: LOL!
Kitty Barnett: is the point to make it more shiny and flashy? or actually more accurate by reducing the possiblity to game search as well?
Earnest Thorne: what are you doing here
Khamon Fate: No Khamon, that's silly.
Akasha Voom: Salut Poison -
Khamon Fate: Or is it Prokofy that tells me that?
Poison Obscure: bonjour Robin
Robin Linden: More accurate, and certainly less prone to gaming that say, popular places.
Jessica Holyoke: bon joir Poison
Poison Obscure: Bonsoir Akasha
Jessica Holyoke: non, bon jour poison
Kitty Barnett: that's good news then :)
Ciaran Laval: Robin can you get us a screenshot of these proposals or is it too early to do that?
Robin Linden: Dunno Ciaran.
Khamon Fate: Are changes in the traffic calculations slated as well?
Ciaran Laval: You mentioned last week that you wished you could show us a picture
Robin Linden: I'll find out.
Robin Linden: I think so Khamon, but please don't hold me to that just yet.
Poison Obscure: Vous êtres Français tous les trois ?
Robin Linden: Hehe - I still do.
Robin Linden: Je ne suis pas francais.
Ciaran Laval: How about you pay for us all to come to San Francisco for a look
Khamon Fate: The Pravda will print that you said traffic is being eliminated.
Poison Obscure: ok
Wyn Galbraith: LOL field trip
Akasha Voom: moi non plus. :)
Ciaran Laval: hehe
Robin Linden: Perhaps Khamon. Then they'll be wrong.
Khamon Fate: Oh yeah and raise our teir 300%
You: Pravda is correct, Khamon.
You: Je ne parle pas francais
You: is how you say it lol
Robin Linden: Sounds like a fun field trip
Kitty Barnett: uhm... there were two town halls that said traffic would go *poof* already
Robin Linden: Prok - I thought she was asking if I am French, not if I speak french
Wyn Galbraith: We can all pile into Robin's office.
You: yes Meta keeps saying that
You: oh ok!
katya Foden gave you katya`s poof rings.
Robin Linden: Office -- hah! We're egalitarian here. I don't have an office.
Ciaran Laval: Surely traffic needs a replacement before it can go poof?
Athena Sterling: Katya, please don't spamm me
Ciaran Laval: Maybe this new search system is part of that plan
Jessica Holyoke: big wide plan
You: all she's doing is showing you how much more people will have to spam because search will no longer turn up stores with traffic and kill business for a lot of people.
Robin Linden: If you were building search, how would you decide what the position of listings should be. Remember, paid ads will be separate.
Robin Linden: Why do you say that Prokofy? That's how nasty rumors get started.
Ciaran Laval: That's where I'd want categories Robin
You: by traffic! works fine now, you can skip over the first two categories
Robin Linden: It's quite possible that traffic will be a key factor.
You: because without traffic, no actually merited stores will show up Robin
You: because every Linden from Cory on down has said they will be removing parcel traffic from search
You: if you aren't, great!
Robin Linden: I don't think it's a done deal Prokofy. But I don't think it will only be traffic.
Iwana Fouquet: traffic x parcel size = rank
You: everyone obsesses about how it is "gamed" for a few camp-chair places and to get rid of them they are willing to get rid of traffic period
You: I hope it isn't a done deal, but I'm not spreading rumours unless what Cory says at town halls is a rumour.
Jessica Holyoke: why should parcel size matter Iwana?
Kitty Barnett: there isn't anything truly wrong with traffic the way it works now.... but it kind of cheapens with camping and false keywords :|
Ciaran Laval: Camping is a marketing tool
Robin Linden: Should we move on to Jessica's question?
Iwana Fouquet: tier
Jessica Holyoke: but a better product might be at a smaller location
You: yes camping is the old telehubs, enabling people to buy into a meritocracy market
Robin Linden: Let me rephrase that. Let's move on to Jessica's question!
Kitty Barnett: hehe
Iwana Fouquet: stop 512m owners clogging the sim
Ciaran Laval: lol ooh I do like it when you get all commanding
Robin Linden: :)
Jessica Holyoke: my question is more for the group and what you might have heard Robin. and not related to a current controversy
Jessica Holyoke: there are a number of arbitration mediation providers in SL
Robin Linden: Sounds good, Jessica!
Khamon Fate: Can I come see your office?
Jessica Holyoke: has anyone used one, and what was the outcome
Wyn Galbraith: Which current conotroversy?
Jessica Holyoke: and if no need has arisen, would you be interested?
Jessica Holyoke: not bringing that up Khamon
Ciaran Laval: Take your pick Wyn
Robin Linden: Good question Jessica - I'm interested to hear about that.
Wyn Galbraith would like to pick the right one :)
Wyn Galbraith: Arbitration mediation? I haven't had a need to use a service like that.
Khamon Fate: sorry, I meant Robin's office
Robin Linden: What about jessica's question? Has anyone used an arbitration service?
Akasha Voom: could we have the option to rate results for instance? *out of context I know, sorry*
Robin Linden: I've always wondered how they would work in terms of enforcement.
Jessica Holyoke: but if you had a dispute withanother resident, would you want to use a mediator in world
Ciaran Laval: I didn't know they existed to be honest
Athena Sterling: square trade
Jessica Holyoke: portugese justice people
Jessica Holyoke: not sure of the name
Robin Linden: Are they in Second Life Athena?
Khamon Fate: Jessica, what types of inworld disputes are condusive to inworld mediation?
Jessica Holyoke: just recently started a mediation group
Andabata Mandelbrot: I know how the mediation service of the Portuguese Ministry of Justice works, but haven't used it myself.
Wyn Galbraith works out disagreements with the person directly.
Athena Sterling: not that i know of
Jessica Holyoke: there we go, ministry of justice
You: [RL work paragraph lol] I would not wish to use a mediator so please don't have Ll bless that
Athena Sterling: i've never heard of or used one in SL
You: oops sorry I just pasted my RL work into the chat duh stupid
You: lol
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
Kitty Barnett ARs the guilty party if it's really required... they hopefully get warned/suspended/banned... dispute resolved? :p
You: lol
Ciaran Laval: Right but you'd have to have some trust in the mediation process, that's the difficult part, it would be nice to hear of some resolved disputes
Robin Linden: wow Prok. wow are you working on?!
Aargle Zymurgy: well, THAT was an amazing read.
You: bleh
Andabata Mandelbrot: basically, both parties provide the amount under discussion, and submit themselves to the "mediation court".
You: sorry about that
You: too much multi-tasking lol
Andabata Mandelbrot: Then, once a decision is reached, the money is distributed by one party (or both), with a fee for the mediation court
Robin Linden: Is there a fee for mediation services in the Portuguese project?
You: I was trying to re-paste in my question back at the beginning
Jessica Holyoke: well, buried in there was not having LL bless mediation services
Khamon Fate: Agree that trusting the mediators is the highest hurdle in an environment where there is no accountability ever for anything
Andabata Mandelbrot: Yes, Robin, thare are fees.
You: yes that's the point, mediation should not be blessed and feted, no
Jessica Holyoke: I know there was a SL mediator group that charged 200 per participant
You: there are violations that need prosecution, not mediation
Robin Linden: What about a mediation service for people who are unhappy with LL?
Robin Linden: So not Resident to Resident, but Resident to Linden Lab?
Ciaran Laval: We use the forums and moan a lot
Khamon Fate: Again, we can deal with y'all directly
Robin Linden: That's cuz you're FIC Khamon.
Jessica Holyoke: there is a certain amount of openness
Robin Linden: Lots of folks think they have no recourse.
Wyn Galbraith thinks moaning comes with software use.
You: LL should not be in the mediation business if they are going to decide not to make "social moorings" and just make "tools" as Robin said at SLCC
Robin Linden: LOL Wyn - no kidding!
Andabata Mandelbrot: Between LL and Residents, the problem is that a third party would have to hold the actual resource under discussion.
Robin Linden: social mores, Prokofy
You: What all these lawsuits going on now tell us is that if something rises to the test of a RL crime then people turn to RL lawyers and judges, and that's how it should be
Ciaran Laval: Between LL and Residents there's a perception that residents don't have a leg to stand on because of the TOS we agree to
Khamon Fate: Tell new residents at orientation that they are free to IM or email you guys.
Jessica Holyoke: Prok: I'm not asking for the lab's participation. I'm wondering about if people actually use the resident provided service
You: mores! oh cool, I thought moorings was kind of exotic lol
Khamon Fate: Remove the mystique early in the game.
You: no they don't, they had 30 people use it at one point they said
Khamon Fate: and I'm not as FIC as Prok
You: *rolls eyes*
Jessica Holyoke: but there's a point where a RL lawsuit isn't cost effective over the dispute
Jessica Holyoke: only if it rises to that point
You: the problem is wheher I can get a judge to care about 16 m 2 sign extortion as much as I could get Ll to care
Khamon Fate: I suppose a "professional" mediation with LL service would be useful to people who didn't know who or how to contact support et al; but it'd have to be wholly resident owned and operated.
Jessica Holyoke: Prok, I think you could get a judge to care, its just the cost of the suit
Kitty Barnett: but it kind of misses on the point that nothing is *forcing* someone to mediate so it won't ever be useful for what it's trying to achieve... if people are willing to talk, you don't have much of a dispute
You: Now I'm worried that I'm going to paste to my RL boss something about casinos and ageplay in SL, I can no longer paste
Jessica Holyoke: Kitty, that is the "main" problem with mediation services
Khamon Fate: Well that's it in a nutshell Jessica, we're generally talking about a very few USD when land rentals or clothing purchases go south.
Jessica Holyoke: and all of the other resident legal systems in SL
Aargle Zymurgy: well, I know I have one friend who got ripped off in a land-swindle. you can rest assured that the person taking the money won't show up to any sort of mediation meeting about it.
You: mediation implies that no offense took place that requires punishment, that "we can all get along" and that's crap in SL, sorry.
You: yes Aargle, and that's just it, they don't have a "failure to communicate" ; one committed theft, they other was victimized, it's not 'about" mediation
Khamon Fate: Most of the resident "arbitrations" I've seen are over such menial amounts of cash that it's hardly seemed worth the effort except as a roleplaying excersice.
Robin Linden: Would you feel better about arbitration Prokofy?
You: No I wouldn't feel better about arbitration at all, we need prosecution of offenses not arbitration
Aargle Zymurgy: I'd be happier with the SL equivalent of the BBB
You: arbitration is a more sophisticated thing you can put in place when you have a robust legal system whch we don't have
Ciaran Laval: Surely there can be forms of recourse before it gets to a prosecution stage
Robin Linden: Do you think that's something that the community will develop Aargle?
You: well you don't need some formal body for that
Aargle Zymurgy: I've considered it, actually.
Aargle Zymurgy: especially after seeing how badly some estate owners have treated their people versus how well mine has treated me.
Khamon Fate: Arbitration is listed in the real world as a less expensive and more expedient solution than legal recourse.
Jessica Holyoke: arbitration is just cheap trial
Jessica Holyoke: and many courts require it before you can go to trial
Khamon Fate: But Prokofy's right to say that we don't have any legal recourse here to begin with outside the TOS and CS.
Robin Linden: So to answer Jessica, it sounds like no one has used a service, and there are mixed feelings about the value of mediation in SL, and negative feelings about arbitration.
You: I find naming and shaming on blogs and boycotting the perpetrators works well, if land tools fail you : )
Ciaran Laval: Naming and shaming is a dangerous path to tread when it can be used so maliciously
Jessica Holyoke: but that's not really recourse, because you aren't in the same position as before
You: It's all about the social mores that LL won't work, attached to social moorings that we have to make work lol
Robin Linden: Well said Ciaran
You: It's all there is when there is no rule of law Ciaran
You: and there isn't
Khamon Fate: I found that talking to people solved 99% of the problems I've had inworld.
Khamon Fate: Pending that, I've moved.
Robin Linden: Outworld too, Khamon.
You: it solves perhaps 20 percent Khamon, you just don't have the kind of experiences I do with griefings and such
Robin Linden: KK - we have about 10 more minutes.
Robin Linden: I think I'm ready to take on Prokofy now.
Khamon Fate: That's because you're an oldbie FIC
Robin Linden: /braces self
Jessica Holyoke: I think my question has been answered
You: sigh
You: I had a question about the trust systems Robin if there is time, about what ELSE there is envisioned besides age verification
Iwana Fouquet: Lets all buy isolated islands lol
You: and also about SL Views, how many people in it, and what that says about the whole issue of trust between the Lab and residents
Robin Linden: Good question Prokofy. We've talked about all sorts of things.
Wyn Galbraith thinks naming and shaming brings on the same.
Robin Linden: Let's start with tools.
You: If you couldn't name and shame Bush or Karl Rove or whatever, Wyn, where would we all be? or Gonzalez. That's how it works.
Robin Linden: SL is clearly becoming more of a platform. It feels like under that situation we should be thinking about what sort of tools or features people need to take care of themselves.
Wyn Galbraith: I don't do things like that, Prok.
You: Robin, but if we don't participate in this tool development, it's still you running the world.
Iwana Fouquet: Can we return objects LEANING in our parcel?
Jessica Holyoke: like overhanging branches?
Khamon Fate: That'd be nice Iwana, but it's technically very very challenging.
Wyn Galbraith: The center of the object needs to be on your parcel, Iwana.
Iwana Fouquet: yyes
Robin Linden: So in the goal of trust building, it's about two sides of things -- how do I let people know enough about me that they trust me, and how do people manage their own experience.
Khamon Fate: May be possible under Havok4 though
You: she's raising the perfect example of a tool or function needed to reduce stress betwen neighbours that we can't effect
Aargle Zymurgy: I was asked tomove an offending tree once. it's not too big a deal. it's back to the "talking" thing.
Jessica Holyoke: but you should do that anyway, you should always talk to yourneighbor first
Wyn Galbraith: I've been asked to move trees too, not a problem if they overhang. I think it's a legit request.
Akasha Voom: P2P experience. open up more. share more. transparency :)
Robin Linden: sounds good to me Akasha.
Ciaran Laval: Well it's different with you being a LL representative Robin, we all know who you are.
Jessica Holyoke: do we really?
Khamon Fate: Yes Prok but sometimes code is law because of programming limitations that can't be helped.
Robin Linden: I should have said "one" instead of "me"
Akasha Voom: :)
You: well I'd like a tool to remove giant boxes with my Rl picture on my no-show neighbours' lawn, and there you go, just more labour-intensive stuff for Lindens.
Khamon Fate: You can all trust me. Pay me all your lindens and I will hand them back to you.
Jessica Holyoke: so what is the current tools being proposed beyond verifying age?
Khamon Fate: ahem
Ciaran Laval: I don't need to know where someone lives to trust them
Akasha Voom: I feel the profile section is not "sexy" enough
Wyn Galbraith: LOL Khamon, spent them all.
Ciaran Laval: Unless we get into the local laws issues that Philip raised in his reuters interview
Robin Linden: It's broader than age verification Jessica. We're looking at various sorts of identity options.
You: like?
Khamon Fate: We have that now with a First Life tab.
Robin Linden: On the other side of the equation it always seems to come down to mute and ban, and some form of those.
Ciaran Laval: Like if something is banned in your country, you won't be able to participate in it
Jessica Holyoke: wait, that didn't cover the proposed tools
You: are you still actively working towards this idea of effacing the view of neighbours' land?
Ciaran Laval: Rather than banning everything by the lowest common denominator
You: (not an idea I support)
Robin Linden: No Prokofy, not that I know of.
You: good!
Khamon Fate: Yeah and it always quickly focuses on estates and leaves Mainland land owners in the dust.
Robin Linden: Agreed Khamon. That's an ongoing frustration for all of us.
You: I'm happy with SL the way it is now in fact.
Robin Linden: Really?
You: I just need group tools to work as stated that's all
You: yes
You: I'm easy to please Robin, I don't need tools.
Robin Linden: :)
You: There are too many tools now as it is, and they don't work.
Khamon Fate: The group tool rework really is primo. Y'all did a good job with that.
Robin Linden: Well, some don't work.
You: Notecard giver and notecard taker are all you need
Khamon Fate: What doesn't work?
Wyn Galbraith has to run do some RL stuff, "Thanks for the meeting, Robin. Always a pleasure."
Robin Linden: Thanks Khamon. that was one of my prouder moments.
You: the groups don't load, there is bugginess among some of the roles, etc
Robin Linden: Cya Wyn!
Wyn Galbraith: B-bye!!! :D
Khamon Fate: by Wyn
Khamon Fate: What doesn't work?
You: I'm seriously happy with the way SL is now, anything fancier will only break, or break stuff that does work.
Iwana Fouquet: I think groups need a 'start group chat' rights.
Akasha Voom: I'd like to have funky fields in my profile, like my favorite color, favorite music, movies etc.... and have some kind of a "matching/rating" system to see if I can click with random ppl i meet.
Iwana Fouquet: to stop spam
Akasha Voom: :/
You: well you have to make groups only with people you want to chat then, hopefully human intelligence does get to still play a role in this tool factory.
Khamon Fate: Oh that's true, we need to be able to assign and revoke the ability for a role to start group IMs
Robin Linden: True Khamon.
Robin Linden: OK - real quick and then I have to go.
You: if you can have "close group chat permanently" or "for 60 minutes" that would solve the problem
Athena Sterling: oh what i woudln't give to have group mute rights..or as a group owner/admin be able to not allow people to chat in them
Aargle Zymurgy: Thank you for your time, Robin. If you would, pass my name on to Ken when he gets an avatar. I can provide him with full information on my games and point him to the other developers that typically have a clue.
Robin Linden: SLViews came up -- the goal there is to be an ever-expanding group of Residents to provide feedback into ideas and plans for development
Khamon Fate: Thanks for hosting Robin. Love office hours
Robin Linden: Thanks for coming everyone!
Ciaran Laval: What is SL Views when it's all at home?
Robin Linden: If you'd like to b considered for SL Views, please let Iridium Linden know.
Akasha Voom: Thank you :)
Ciaran Laval: Oh ok
Robin Linden: We meet quarterly.
You: You should go back to posting minutes of those SL Views.
Robin Linden: Yes, Prokofy. I'll mention that.
Athena Sterling: what is SL views?
Robin Linden: A lot of what's discussed is under NDA, but we could post what isn't.
Ciaran Laval: Promoting these feedback tools would be useful
You: It's a secret meeting of select residents who sign NDAs
Robin Linden: Next week I'll be traveling, so I'm not sure if I'll be here.
Khamon Fate: Help I've stood up and I can't move
Khamon Fate: The next week my will be in SF
Robin Linden: If not, I'll post a note to the wiki, and leave a sign here.
Robin Linden: cya
Khamon Fate: We can appoint somebody to be you for the day
Akasha Voom: thank you Robin :)
You: thanks Robin
Khamon Fate: We've done it before
Dimitrio Lewis: Thanks Robin!
Athena Sterling: we will be sure to have a party if your unable to attend
Ciaran Laval: Cheers Robin
Iwana Fouquet: bye
Jessica Holyoke: thank you Robin
Robin Linden: good plan Khamon! Take notes and let me know what you decide!
Khamon Fate: roger that
Athena Sterling: thank you for your time

Comments

[Cocoanut Koala]

"Robin Linden: If you'd like to b considered for SL Views, please let Iridium Linden know."

Well this is good news! You can ask to be considered, at least, rather than simply wait to be asked!

coco

[Ace Albion]

There is now an "Age Verification" link on my SL account page, as per the email I just got.

So, soon is now I guess.

[Dylan Klebold]

Robin freaks me the hell out. Her "deer-in-the-headlights" look betrays the constant terror and cocaine-level of paranoia dancing in her brain. She pulls something out of her ass sideways and in the next sentence tries to cover it over like a dog in a sandbox. Everything she tries to clarify is just further obfuscated and opens even more Pandora's Boxes in the effort.

Gestapo White Lists of games that you are allowed to enjoy, only in places you're allowed to go to, decorated with things you are allowed to see, ideas you are allowed to express - anything else - DAS IST VERBOTEN!

If you want to be very afraid of the future of SL - just look into her eyes. I see a real heavy emotional disturbance in there. She gets my vote for "Most Likely To Come In To Work One Day And Shoot The Place Up".

And if she does - don't go around saying she got the idea from me, fercrissakes!

[Prokofy Neva]

Dylan, I think you're projecting much. Robin doesn't at all come across as deer-in-the-headlines in SL or RL. She's actually pretty attractive. Maybe she's one of those people whose contacts don't quite fit, that can make you stare.

Basically, gambling is outlawed. So all that these people are doing here are trying to find some exception for this or that, trying to push the envelope and say "But Mooommmmmmm can't I stay up 15 minutes more?" and she's saying, no, it's bed time. It's pretty simple.

I don't think she'll shoot up the place at all, I think she's one of the few adults in charge there and if anything will surprise everyone by retiring with a bundle when the time is right.

[Khamon Fate]

Robin is the patron saint of adults on the grid and makes me feel like the only person in her world when we're talking. People on SC are debating the critical exodus markers after Philip's SLCC speech and news.com interview; but they're skipping Robin's migration to the next platform and drawing a good chunk of us with her.

The SC thread is here for anyone interested in reading it:

http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=18447

[Prokofy Neva]

The gist of that thread seems to be that because Adam Zaius, favoured son of LL and FIC extraordinaire, managed to reverse-engineer SL and get an open sim to work on a server, we suddenly need to see this as competition. But it doesn't connect to anything. The Lindens will continue to sell the hook up to the most dense array of content and land, that will probably be cheaper than elsewhere, which will have its own start-up glitches.

I'm just not persuaded that there is another thing like SL out there, even remotely. However, nothing is inexpendable, and it stands to reason some company is feverishly working on it now.

It's true that Robin used to be at Maxis/Ea.com, then left for SL before TSO launched. So we need to keep an eye on here and see if she goes to some other platform lol that will be succeeding. She does use the title "Linden Lifer," however.

[Khamon]

The thread did devolve into competition smack, but started, to me, as expressed frustration from oldbies who finally have realized that LL...come to think, oldbies seem to be frustrated to the point of madness as often as LL claims The Grid All Hail The Het Grid is scalable.

Yet very few of us are ever willing to sell our land and abandon the project. By "abandon" I don't mean never log into Second Lag (was it Cocoanut that coined that term?) again; but divert the time and effort expended trying to aid its success into something that's actually productive to our lives.

You're right and so are the Sc posters and so are LL, where are we gonna go?

[Cocoanut Koala]

No, it wasn't me who coined that.

For me, viable competition would have to include: (a) I can make anything I want and (b) I can sell that to others, either for real money (preferably) or for some sort of game tokens.

coco

[Khamon]

For me it has to include: (a) I can create and host the whole environment and (b) invite others to log in and share the space.

Second Life imposes too many restrictions on environment creation, especially on the Mainland. Then they force me to host that space on the wholly unreliable Grid All Hail The Central Grid.

Being able to buy and sell is not worth having to be connected to everything and everybody all the time while trusting (God what a word) LL to maintain a level of service, honesty, and support that ranks just above nil.

[Prokofy Neva]

Khamon, you should just buy an island.

[Khamon Fate]

Have you listened to estate owners over the past year? They've no better time of it than us. Those sims share RAM and network access with up to three others hosting Heaven knows how many avatars and resource demanding scripts. They're just as susceptible to inventory loss, grid crashes, and wandering prims as we are.

What problem is me owning an island going to solve?

[Prokofy Neva]

You know, knock wood, I've never had any problems on my island that weren't caused either by griefers or the inhabitants putting out excessive scripts. It runs great. I never restart it. I never have these problems everyone talks about. I try to keep an eye on the collisions and scripts and I never restart it.

[Khamon]

So, I should just buy *your* island.

[Ciaran Laval]

I think Robin is wonderful, I don't see the deer in the headlights issue with her and she always tries to make me feel like she's listening to what I say even when I am giving her a hard time.

The trust questions had been going on for a couple of weeks at office hours, now I know why as it's the cornerstone of how their selling id verification.

The new search though, I don't like some of the things she's suggesting there and I wonder if there's going to be any point in classifieds without categories.