The gumballs finally clicked and rolled down the chute for me the other day, trying to explain to Robin Linden in an office hour, or was it Michael Linden in an office hour, that Ginsu Linden had it all wrong (Ginsu even made the Saxo Bank guy cry!). Ginsu has been going around trying to get us to believe that Second Life is now only a "product" and that Linden Lab is only "a computer software company" and that while he understands that the "customers" get very "immersed" and imagine -- silly creatures! -- that LL is a "government" operating a "world," it's all fake, of course! Or, as a good friend also said to me the other day, "Why are we here? We're not getting anywhere with Second Life, it's all a fake world."
That's because none of these folks have figured out that Snowcrash is here! THE FUTURE IS NOW! just like the old Firesign Theater shtick foretold. Many wide-eyed fans of Snowcrash tend to remember only the Metaverse and its glittering virtual boardwalk and the cool Hiro Protagonist with his crossed katana swords, and not even be conscious of their smug appreciation of the exclusive and privileged coders of this world, or their sense of superiority over all those poor retards that have to log on at public terminals and be grey people, or their unconscious acceptance of the old lie that the Jews are to blame for evil in the world. But the overall "architecture" of this Snowcrash world, if you will, is a pretty simple inversion: governments are reduced to the role of at best, weak or sprawling corporations and corporations are elevated to to the level of governments. And that part Neal Stephenson got right, too.
So the Lindens need to stop role-playing that they are a mere software company in California making an interesting, yet -- at the end of the day -- self-limited "product," and the legion of their fanboyz emerging around them need to stop role-playing along with them that this is a mere "grid" with an "Architecture Working Group" to usher them and their friends into the Bright Future. Instead, they should sober up and realize they are a Government (and of course, the more sinister among them realized that, which is why they made sure they got early and front-row seats).
I seldom have agreed with the more cynical youngsters in SL who describe Robin Linden, whom I regard as a respected peer, as behaving like a "deer in the headlights." She does in this meeting -- but that's a good thing, because now we can get a better idea of the real problem we're dealing with: people not only actively shirking their historically-induced mandate of a new-style government, but who are in danger of losing it to far worse actors on the scene if they don't scramble quickly to assume the mantle of policy-making inherent in the software they are unleashing on the world soon. For the first time, Robin appears to contemplate the open-sourced software being used by people *not to connect to the grid of Second Life through Linden Lab* to do things *not Second Lifey as we know it*.
Below you can read an interesting transcript from Robin Linden's office hour this week that have the usual suspects showing up -- Wyn Galbraith to let you know she's all glowy about technology and the future and her own superior knowledge about how it's all going to work with her working it of course; Tao Takashi, smug about guardless grids and himself as a hegemonic freak ruling it all, through his engineering of an Architecture Working Group larger even than Second Life! -- and lurking behind them all by implication the more sinister forces of the JIRA, like the destroyer of the Feature Voting system, Angel Fluffy -- and many more.
Busybody Fugazi's article was feted and praised, and while it's a very good summary of the Problem of Second Life these days, the solution is one that we must reject resolutely -- and sadly. The path to change does not lie through Linden Lab -- unless the Lindens themselves change and assume with awed responsibility their God-given historical mandate to govern wisely and well.
Experience has taught us, regrettably, with Linden Lab, that it never makes the changes necessary for even its own survival on its own. It has a certain self-regulatory capacity at lower levels based on inworld social pressure (oops! let's not destroy L$30 million of income for merchants on Halloween Day!), but its sprawling, hippie California dope-smokin' culture, its distributed decision-making, its Tao of Linden based on Soviet collectivism, it's Big List of Things to Do from which coding kiddies pick Only the Thing I Feel Like Doing -- all of this just doesn't cut it.
So that means while one Linden, like Chadrick Linden back in March 2007, might work his own internal JIRA hell to get out in the world with a notecard warning people that their content may fall under RL laws concerning depiction of child pornography, it will take eight more months for a stringent, articulated, very public position on the blog itself, and to the media. Finally, in November, we have the fullest and sternest articulation of this anti-ageplay position (which LL even pretends is "not new") in official blog format (not new because previous statements had made it ambiguous that even the *depiction* of lewd acts by children with avatars run by *adults* would not be tolerated). So that means that many needless months went by with the German media and prosecutors going nuts and then lately the UK media and parliament -- and all for want of a nail, so to speak, want of a willingness to take Chadrick's (or whoever wrote it -- he may have merely been the messenger of another's internal policy) notecard and to front it on the blog and in media statements when and where it counted -- braving the fierce resistance of actual pedophiles and their supporters in the name of free speech within SL.
So the path to the Better World, which I think most people would agree shouldn't require the rape of children even in virtuality, didn't lie through Linden Lab; it lay in part through the actions of one or two Lindens with initiative; in part through the zeal of German prosecutors and British parliamentarians and the RL media.
The path to the end of gambling in Second Life lay through US Internet law and Visa and Mastercard, not even through attentive Linden counsel seeing the handwriting on the wall in legal developments in the United States that might have then given hapless SL residents more than 14 days to respond to the closedown of casinos -- and thereby might have avoided the collapse of Ginko's -- which was something more complex than the Ponzi scheme it is often described as.
Even the path to the announcement of the Architecture Working Group and the opening of the server code (if we posit that is a Better World) also seems to have been laid not through Linden Lab but through the pressure placed on them by the rest of the emerging Metaverse, whether Raph Koster's Metaplace and the other worlds, from Twinity to VastPark to Multiverse to V-Side and others, the worlds that began to appear and formed the basis for an impressive exhibition at the Virtual Worlds 2007.
None of these worlds, from our perspective as Linden loyalists, seem "as good" to us. And yet a concerted group of people within SL in the Architecture Working Group, which is "where it's at" these days, are happy to take Philip Rosedale's technology and go somewhere else with it, and connect to each other, not to him. This is one of the reasons why I have opposed open source in the way it is planned, and have made the Alternative Architecture Working Group.
In his post, Busybody imagines that the paths to ending the scourge of 16 m2 sign griefing and extortion; the scandal of "banks" which are merely glorified football pools collapsing; the unfairness of licensing only to the Electric Sheep and signing NDAs only with the FIC; and other ills of the mainland and SL writ large, lie only through LL.
But after 3 years of the Lindens not doing a damn thing about the mainland ills and resolutely refusing to *ever* meet a script or prim they never like, or *ever* get in the middle of a transaction between two residents, even the most fraudulent, we are forced to conclude that only real-life litigation or media pressure or parliamentary oversight will work.
It would be nice if that weren't the case. I'd be the first to sign up (in fact I thought I *had* signed up!) for an international virtual world space that enabled prototyping of different competing social systems with different features so that the advantages of capitalism and social responsibility can be obviously demonstrated to be superior to socialism and social irresponsibility. There's still some capacity in this regard.
But until there is a real-life class-action lawsuit that approaches real-life firms like Coldwell Banker bankrolling sign extortionists like Chrischun Fassbinder and griefers like Ancient Shriner who devalue others' land and purchases in SL and harm their businesses and private lives, we will never see action on the 16m microbarons, or others shirking social responsibility.
Until parliamentary oversight or an individual lawsuit joining LL by name occurs, we will never see any regulation or compensation for the scandals of bank fraud and island scamming.
And so on. Even in our little SL internal history, we've seen that until RL legal principle was invoked in letters from counsel, and social movements of land barons organized to confront Linden leaders Philip and Robin, no compensation for the removal of the telehubs and the devaluation of land just sold on the auction was going to happen in 2005. Again, regrettably, that's what it takes.
Each time Linden Lab has made a major policy decision, often having to override the concerted resistance of their early adapters and fiercest Feted, it has been under pressure from outside forces: media, law-enforcement, parliament.
All the real-life institutions that real-life people, including ourselves who are Second Life, built up over centuries have been forced to act so as to rein in the destructive influences of virtuality.
The reality is that those institutions are changing now, and the evil Snowcrash may get its way and invert and destroy them even further -- and especially with the help of these virtual worlds that we thought would make everything "Better". (But for now, they prevail -- and maybe that's a good thing).
A world in which Angel Fluffy can spread Capture Roleplay (a predatory rape game) and the Security State built on the crushed ruins of a democratic voting system isn't one I'd like to see spreading around the imagined or the real world. Would you? It's one thing to be tolerant of it in a World of All Possibilities. It's another when it becomes the Strongest -- which of course Angel and his followers are assiduously trying to make possible.
A world in which intellectual property and safety against theft of content isn't an afterthought, as it is for Tao Takashi in this meeting (and others) enthusing about Open Architecture isn't one I'd like to see spreading around the imagined or the real world. Would you? It's one thing to be tolerant of it in a World of All Possibilities. It's another when it becomes the Strongest -- even Lawrence Lessig probably has some intellectual property and real property of his own he wouldn't like to give away to thugs...no?
For now, ironically, the two features that make Second Life special that even Gwyn doesn't seem to fully appreciate -- emulated real estate or private property and emulated intellectual property -- are two things that other worlds are busy taking away -- or never adding. Twinity has rooms in buildings -- but you won't buy and sell your own land. There.com has increasingly enabled content creation, but you must clear their central committee. Metaplace will have a system for content creation, buying and selling the items in the world or rather the engines of their creation like style-sheets, but evidently *not real estate itself -- not land, or server space*. And that's important. Everyone among the Open Architects is eager to junk private property as an ancient meatworld artifact. Heh. Wait until they see the kind of dystopias that result without it. Go and watch Dr. Zhivago one more time!
The path away from the horror of the future where a handful of arrogant and cynical -- and unrestrained -- coders get to run whole swathes of our lives, real and virtual, under a thin veneer of "openness" and "freedom" -- does lie indeed for now lie through real-life institutions, such as they are, and even through Linden Lab, such as they are -- but in tandem, not in isolation, as Nobody Fugazi imagines it, and not as "special" as Gwyn announces it. They will have to get in touch with a conscience, or acquire it, which they don't necessarily have.
Transcript of Office Meeting with Robin Linden Nov. 20
[10:59] Dimitrio Lewis: heya Khamon
[11:00] Jessica Holyoke: I hope I'm not sitting on anyone
[11:01] Robin Linden: hey Wyn - cool glow!
[11:01] Wyn Galbraith: Oh thanks, it's my foot wings, they go gaga here cause the scripts are off.
[11:01] Robin Linden: wow - textures taking a really long time to load
[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Welcome to the last week Robin
[11:02] Robin Linden: the last week of what ciaran?
[11:02] Wyn Galbraith: Anyone else having problems with activating groups.
[11:02] Ciaran Laval: SUber Lag
[11:02] Jessica Holyoke: I am, I'm trying to change my group title
[11:02] Ciaran Laval: Yes Wyn
[11:02] Robin Linden: let's hope
[11:02] Wyn Galbraith: Ok, it's not me.
[11:02] You: Search and profiles don't seem to be working either.
[11:02] Dimitrio Lewis: search and map isn't working for me
[11:02] Robin Linden: voice is down
[11:02] Wyn Galbraith: Well it is me, but not just me ;)
[11:02] Jessica Holyoke: search, map and tp weren't working for me
[11:03] You: This tree branch keeps waving into my view.
[11:03] Jessica Holyoke: I had to log out and log back into ambleside
[11:03] Dimitrio Lewis: me too :D
[11:03] Ciaran Laval: TP is working
[11:03] You: Inventory seems to be working properly as well.
[11:03] Wagahai Oddfellow: btw, Robin - not that you don't have enough broken things atm, but figured I'd mention that On http://secondlifegrid.net/how/ the bullet point links for "getting started" and "success stories" both fail. Webmaster forgot that they weren't under "/how" directory and used dynamic links.
[11:03] Wyn Galbraith: It' knows you're a tree person, Khamon. I'm going to idle to find some rl asprin.
[11:04] Robin Linden: Thanks Wag - I'll let Cornelius know
[11:04] You: Coffee is a good idea too
[11:04] Robin Linden: Khamon is a tree person?
[11:04] You: Khamon practically *is* a tree
[11:04] Robin Linden: coffee and aspirin = migraine relief
[11:05] Robin Linden: So.... anyone here from inworld press?
[11:05] Jessica Holyoke: maybe, maybe not
[11:05] Robin Linden: it's ok - you can 'fess up
[11:05] Robin Linden: hehe
[11:05] BigMike Bukowski: not me.
[11:05] Robin Linden: we're going to have an inworld press briefing on Monday
[11:06] Robin Linden: first in a regular series
[11:06] Ciaran Laval: Who got invited to that?
[11:06] Robin Linden: people from the Second Life media will be invited
[11:06] Robin Linden: that's why I'm asking
[11:06] Jessica Holyoke: I'm not waffling, I just don't know
[11:06] Jessica Holyoke: yet
[11:06] Jessica Holyoke looks at her invitation in-box
[11:06] Robin Linden: I wanted to make sure everyone was invited who should be
[11:06] Ciaran Laval: Who are the second life media I mean, CNN, SKY, Reuters?
[11:06] Akasha Myoo: hello everyone
[11:06] Robin Linden: They have reps, but also SLNN, Metaverse Messenger, SLInsider, and so on
[11:07] Jessica Holyoke: yeah, I mean was Prok invited, because she should be
[11:07] Robin Linden: Hi Akasha
[11:07] Jessica Holyoke: and there is no SL insider anymore
[11:07] Dimitrio Lewis thinks Sky are only inworld to research one topic
[11:07] Robin Linden: Yes, Prok was invited
[11:07] Vivienne Graves: well, in the age of blogs, just about anyone could conceivably be a member of the 'in-world press'
[11:07] Ciaran Laval: Prok's blogged about it
[11:07] Jessica Holyoke: Herald?
[11:07] Jessica Holyoke slightly hints
[11:07] Robin Linden: Yes, Herald also
[11:07] Ciaran Laval: How about Nobody Fugazi?
[11:07] Tao Takashi: Hi
[11:07] Robin Linden: heya Tao
[11:07] Robin Linden: dunno about Nobody
[11:07] Robin Linden: great piece he wrote recently though
[11:08] Jessica Holyoke: about the banks?
[11:08] Dimitrio Lewis: hi Mc
[11:08] McPhenius Swain: hi everyone :)
[11:08] Ciaran Laval: Hi McP
[11:08] Akasha Myoo: Hi McP
[11:08] Robin Linden: well it was about a lot more than banks
[11:09] Jessica Holyoke: Just trying to narrow it down
[11:09] Robin Linden: It's called all paths to a better second Life...
[11:09] Ciaran Laval: Yeah that was a good piece
[11:09] Tao Takashi: isn't it good enough? ;-)
[11:09] Jessica Holyoke: I have to see it again to remind me
[11:09] Robin Linden: http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/741
[11:10] Jessica Holyoke: ok, that one was good
[11:10] Wyn Galbraith returns, "What's happening?" scrolls back.
[11:10] Robin Linden: Gwyneth also wrote a fabulous piece last week
[11:11] Ciaran Laval: About people not being able to get support outside of the official channels?
[11:11] Ciaran Laval: Or more to the point that people should follow procedure to get the right support
[11:11] Robin Linden: no - it's about what makes SL different from other VWs
[11:11] Robin Linden: http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2007/11/10/why-are-we-special/
[11:12] Robin Linden: I didn't see the one about support
[11:12] Robin Linden: I wanted to apologize for not getting the wiki updated yet
[11:12] Tao Takashi: we had some radio special about SL yesterday and the conclusion was that we there is no urgent need to look at SL anymore
[11:12] Kooky Jetaime: ((Waves to all.. am I the only one having serious issues right now?))
[11:12] Robin Linden: I was traveling all last week
[11:12] Robin Linden: Heya Kooky. I don't think so.
[11:13] Robin Linden: Was it national radio Tao?
[11:13] Vivienne Graves: no, teleport not working for me, either
[11:13] Vivienne Graves: nor search
[11:13] Tao Takashi: yes, I got even interviewed
[11:13] Tao Takashi: and he actually started with the hype is over thing
[11:13] Robin Linden: What did you say?
[11:13] Kooky Jetaime: ((No $$, had to relog to get here, my home sim isn't pulling up group info...))
[11:13] Tao Takashi: that the party of not over of course. I also mentioned the AWG
[11:14] Tao Takashi: it seems that everybody is really waiting for the next thing after SL
[11:14] User not online - inventory has been saved.
[11:14] Tao Takashi: but honestly I don't see anything which might come after it or even close
[11:14] Tao Takashi: I think mainly because everybody is afraid of doing user generated content
[11:14] You: You've obviously not heard of Khamonworld.
[11:14] Akasha Myoo: hahaha khamon.
[11:15] Tao Takashi: that reporter did not even hear about the AWG and that we now even have a german SL print magazine
[11:15] Wyn Galbraith: LOL Khamon.
[11:15] Wyn Galbraith: Or WyndiaWorld
[11:15] Akasha Myoo: I think SL is just the beginning :)
[11:15] Vivienne Graves: and the end point = the Matrix
[11:15] Robin Linden: It's been tough in Germany
[11:15] Wyn Galbraith: Without the aliens.
[11:16] Tao Takashi: or actually that was what one of the interviewers said: It is a bit quieter about SL right now she thinks that it's just starting now
[11:16] Tao Takashi: I know, Robin
[11:16] Tao Takashi: are there any programs to change that? ;-)
[11:16] Robin Linden: Actually yes
[11:16] Tao Takashi: the problem is also that it's maybe a bit problematic right now as everybody thinks he/she knows what SL is
[11:17] Robin Linden: but the climate is different there than in other countries, so we're trying to decide the best approach
[11:17] Tao Takashi: basically something for freaks like me ;-)
[11:17] Robin Linden: :) I hadn't noticed your freakhood
[11:17] JaneD DeCuir: hi all
[11:17] Wyn Galbraith: TaoTakashiTerra
[11:17] Tao Takashi: I was travelling back with somebody from the Web 2.0 Expo in Berlin to COlogne and he said that he will be relieved when this SL thing is over
[11:18] Tao Takashi: which is something which sounds strange ;)
[11:18] Tao Takashi: are people afraid of SL?
[11:18] Tao Takashi: actually he also didn't want to discuss this statement
[11:18] Wyn Galbraith: It's never going to be over if I have a say, evolve maybe, but never over.
[11:18] Wagahai Oddfellow: no, but many are frustrated with it
[11:18] You: The Imperial Virtual Empire of Khamonial Kingdom
[11:18] Tao Takashi: so I see that SL polarises a lot
[11:18] BigMike Bukowski: It's probably a case of people not understanding what it is.
[11:18] Tao Takashi: and I wonder why
[11:18] You: yeah that's it
[11:18] Tao Takashi: probably it's because it looks strange
[11:18] Wyn Galbraith: They think it's a game.
[11:18] Robin Linden: but interestingly, that's not my experience in other parts of Europe'
[11:19] Tao Takashi: and it's something people are not used to it and don't get it when they just look at it
[11:19] Akasha Myoo: the web will go 3D eventually.
[11:19] Akasha Myoo: i'm lagging
[11:19] Tao Takashi: Germany is always behind, you know ;-)
[11:19] Dimitrio Lewis: Second Life isn't something to be afraid of. It's the peoples' playground.
[11:19] You: It's interesting to know that people think the world is just in its infancy and starting to grow.
[11:19] Wyn Galbraith was watching tivo'd South Park episodes about ImaginationLand.
[11:19] Robin Linden: I don't know if behind, but certainly a different perspective
[11:19] Vivienne Graves: people fear what they don't understand, you know
[11:19] Tao Takashi: we try our best to let others pass by regarding new stuff ;-)
[11:19] Tao Takashi: and then we complain
[11:20] Robin Linden: I think there's a somewhat more conservative outlook from the government which has set the tone to a degree
[11:20] Wyn Galbraith: It's like teachers fearing that computers would take over their jobs.
[11:20] Tao Takashi: we had one blog post where somebody said that SL is indeed dangerous
[11:20] JaneD DeCuir: linden, an what criteria you have set the vat any has to pay?
[11:20] Tao Takashi: and he had all the blogosphere behind him in the comments
[11:20] Robin Linden: Tao - can you point me to that link?
[11:20] Tao Takashi: the interesting thing though is the difference between the blogosphere and the big german SL community
[11:21] Tao Takashi: because we have quite a big SL community.. something does not fit here together IMHO
[11:21] Vivienne Graves: most numerous in Europe, but then Germany has a larger population than France or he UK, too
[11:21] You: What we call the world of Second Life is going to have to expand into differenct realms of service.
[11:21] Robin Linden: can you explain Khamon?
[11:21] You: The grid software alone won't keep up with the expansion, even with the types of changes AWG is working with.
[11:22] You: Web services, voice participation via cell phone and such things will have to be considered part of "the world"
[11:23] Vivienne Graves: and IM's to SL via SMS...that's another functionality that would be useful
[11:23] Tao Takashi: RObin: http://www.sixtus.net/entry/856_0_1_0_C/
[11:24] Tao Takashi: well, he does not actually say this about it being dangerous but Cem Basman (also one of the known bloggers here) says that SL is dangerous profiteering
[11:24] Robin Linden: thanks Tao
[11:24] Robin Linden: I agree Khamon.
[11:24] You: What we call external services now, but ones that hook us into the world content and communications to some degree are like the introduction of electricity or television or aeroplanes
[11:24] Robin Linden: There will be layers surrounding the core of SL, all of which contribute to the whole
[11:24] Tao Takashi: but these comments are somehow symbolic for what's happening here
[11:25] JaneD DeCuir: sorry, how did you have set the vat for the individual members?
[11:25] Robin Linden: I'll pass them on to our PR group Tao, and also discuss with the marketing person assigned to Germany.
[11:25] You: Thanks for sharing the links Tao
[11:25] Tao Takashi: even if you mention SL somewhere on a barcamp you suddenly have people in your back talking to the surrounding people somewhat louder about how awful SL is
[11:25] Ciaran Laval: The disparate parts will make up the whole.
[11:25] Vivienne Graves: Jane: the rate is set depending on your country's rate of VAT; LL have nothing to do with it
[11:25] Robin Linden: Jane, VAT is determined by where you live and what the law is there.
[11:25] Tao Takashi: as if they are forced to use it ;-) The mere existance seems to be a problem for some
[11:25] JaneD DeCuir: and how do you know from where i am?
[11:26] Tao Takashi: that's also the reason why I'd like to have the Second LIfe Grid Architecture Working Group be named with something which does not have SL in it ;-)
[11:26] Vivienne Graves: I would guess Germany
[11:26] Robin Linden: You were asked what country you're from when you created your account.
[11:26] Vivienne Graves: from your sentence structure
[11:26] Ciaran Laval: Agreed Tao, complaining about something you aren't going to use seems futile
[11:26] You: but human
[11:26] Ciaran Laval: Well humans like a good whingefest
[11:26] Tao Takashi: so Germany indeed seems to be a difficult area
[11:26] You: You silly humans complain about the darndest things
[11:27] Robin Linden: So Tao, there's a poor and declining perception of SL in Germany
[11:27] Robin Linden: despite efforts to communicate about the valuable things that are happening
[11:27] Robin Linden: I think the tone was set, unfortunately, but the story about child predation
[11:27] Tao Takashi: when was that story again?
[11:28] Robin Linden: That hasn't happened in other countries, so we have to dig out of a hole in some ways
[11:28] You: poor and declining perception in general or just about it's usefullness in business, or education, or entertainment
[11:28] McPhenius Swain: Was it in May?
[11:28] Vivienne Graves: April or May, I think it was
[11:28] Robin Linden: I think it was last May
[11:28] Tao Takashi: this article is from march
[11:28] You: I can't hardly see how a person would find it useless as an entertaining medium
[11:28] Tao Takashi: and Marius Sixtus writes for the Handelsblatt I think
[11:28] Robin Linden: I don't know Khamon. It seems to have a lot to do with fears about safety
[11:28] Akasha Myoo: hmm.. WindLight crashed.
[11:28] Tao Takashi: and some comment says that SL is something for those from the past ;-)
[11:29] You: Oh I see
[11:29] Tao Takashi: so modern people don't use SL :)
[11:29] Ciaran Laval: People need to get their heads around SL being only a part of the grid architecture.
[11:29] You: Yes because those new virtual world systems so outperform the Second Life software
[11:29] Vivienne Graves: once the open grid goes live, then it will be
[11:30] Robin Linden: well I believe there is at least one VW in development in Germany
[11:30] Robin Linden: There's a reporter named Martin Bell who asked me about it
[11:30] Ciaran Laval: He wasn't wearing a white suit was he?
[11:30] Tao Takashi: there are some developed here
[11:30] You: Men in White
[11:30] Vivienne Graves: from the Guardian?
[11:30] Vivienne Graves: I recognise the name
[11:30] Tao Takashi: which adds to this strange situation ;-)
[11:31] Tao Takashi: StageSpace is one, Twinity is another
[11:31] Robin Linden: hehe no. He's from a German marketing publication
[11:31] Tao Takashi: there is also Secret City which is I think also from Germany
[11:31] Robin Linden: yes, that one sounds familiar
[11:31] Tao Takashi: I also read one article about Twinity and how it takes over SL ;-)
[11:31] Ciaran Laval: In Philip's vision is there some thought to different VW's communicating with each other using standard protocols/
[11:32] Robin Linden: Twinity?
[11:32] Tao Takashi: because it has better graphics and you can import 3d models
[11:32] Robin Linden: Yes Ciaran
[11:32] Tao Takashi: and SL is 6 years old anyway
[11:32] Tao Takashi: it seemed kinda biased ;-)
[11:32] Robin Linden: interesting. have you tried it Tao?
[11:32] Tao Takashi: it's in closed beta right now but I didn't get an invite yet
[11:32] Tao Takashi: but no user generated content again
[11:33] Tao Takashi: and StageSpace is more or less a white label solution based on Java
[11:33] Robin Linden: I can't imagine there would be to be honest
[11:33] Robin Linden: I have a couple of updates...
[11:33] Tao Takashi: you have a community already, why not add a 3d chatroom to it and sell some branded clothing additionally
[11:33] JaneD DeCuir: sl is a 3d chatroom
[11:33] JaneD DeCuir: *laugh
[11:33] Robin Linden: we are looking into the survey on the login page idea, and I don't think we'll get it implemented this quarter, but I do think we can slate it for next quarter
[11:34] Vivienne Graves: and a content creation platform, and virtual art space, beyond just being a 3-d chatroom
[11:34] Tao Takashi: oh, and I saw Project Wonderland from Sun at the Web 2.0 Expo
[11:34] Tao Takashi: that one looked nice
[11:34] Tao Takashi: at least for a business intranet solution
[11:35] Robin Linden: yes - what sun is doing is interesting
[11:35] Tao Takashi: and it's open source
[11:35] Robin Linden: Yep
[11:35] Tao Takashi: open source and open networks will be the future anyway
[11:35] Tao Takashi: so every walled garden will have some problem at some point
[11:35] You: Sun uses the Darkstar server?
[11:35] You: Do they still?
[11:35] Tao Takashi: yes
[11:35] Robin Linden: what will be interesting will be if Sun builds a large world or if their open source project ends up being used to create multiple small closed worlds
[11:36] Robin Linden: or perhaps some start-up will come along and use the platform to create their own Second Life
[11:36] Tao Takashi: well, maybe we can at least hook into that agent domain stuff from the AWG
[11:36] Wyn Galbraith: Boy it's stormy in SL today.
[11:36] Tao Takashi: I think it's more likely that SL will be used for startups
[11:36] Wagahai Oddfellow: it's not much different than what happened with IRC networks.. everyone and their brother has their own server (or in this case can have an open sim).. the larger networks which are best managed and have large populations will be where people migrate to
[11:36] Tao Takashi: basically the AWG stuff, should it take off
[11:36] You: I think their aim is small, self-hosted worlds maintained for customer service, intranet access and office meetings.
[11:36] Robin Linden: if people start using open sim, what do you think the cost should be to connect to the Second Life Grid?
[11:36] Tao Takashi: for SL a lot is missing in Project Wonderland I think
[11:37] Ciaran Laval: $200 a month
[11:37] Robin Linden: per region?
[11:37] You: But communities and organizations will get their hands on this kind of software eventually and start building more open worlds.
[11:37] Ciaran Laval: Yes
[11:37] Tao Takashi: shouldn't you calculate this based on your costs? ;-)
[11:37] Tao Takashi: I wonder more what Terms of Service will apply to them
[11:37] Robin Linden: that's why open standards for connection are so important Khamon
[11:37] You: no no just have them connect one region as a bridge
[11:37] Robin Linden: good thought Tao. Yes, costs are important.
[11:37] Tao Takashi: I guess they have to make sure that certain things are correct, like not stealing objects from people
[11:38] Robin Linden: But so are perceptions of value.
[11:38] Ciaran Laval: They should pay less than an Island owner because island owners get SL platinum support but they shouldn't connect for a pittance
[11:38] Tao Takashi: well, depends whom you want to address
[11:39] Tao Takashi: and how many people you want to encourage to run their own server(s)
[11:39] Vivienne Graves: US$200 a month is the same cost as paying tier on a mainland sim from LL, though...the initial outlay is possibly lower than $1675, but $200 a month for connecting to the SL grid, when they're already contr4acting for servers and bandwidth, seems unreasonable
[11:39] Tao Takashi: then you can take the existing costs as basis
[11:39] Robin Linden: There can be good value in people running their own servers.
[11:39] Tao Takashi: if it costs less then more people will join, if it costs more, then not so much
[11:39] You: AWG will have to design the space service so that a sim can connect each border to a different grid
[11:39] Tao Takashi: and they take a LL sim instead
[11:39] Robin Linden: What do you mean by different grid Khamon?
[11:40] Tao Takashi: I mean the higher it is the more you will encourage people to build alternative grids
[11:40] Tao Takashi: where it may not cost anything
[11:40] JaneD DeCuir: their own grids?
[11:40] You: If I host comic book grid and run a space server for people to attach their self hosted comic book themed sims, we'd probably also like to host one sim that connects a side to our grid and a side to the SL grid to act as a bridge between the worlds
[11:41] Tao Takashi: (except hosting it of course)
[11:41] Tao Takashi: yes, their own grids
[11:41] JaneD DeCuir: on their own systems?
[11:41] Tao Takashi: yes
[11:41] JaneD DeCuir: connected to sl
[11:41] Akasha Myoo: :(
[11:41] JaneD DeCuir: sounds good
[11:41] You: Then we have tow other sides to connect to other worlds so that sim acts as a portal.
[11:41] Wyn Galbraith: Hopefully in the next few years we'll have our own home grids.
[11:41] You: sort of like a web portal does now
[11:41] JaneD DeCuir: i have 2 servers in my home hehe
[11:41] Wyn Galbraith would always want to be connected to SL though, "So hopes the Lab intends a long life"
[11:41] Tao Takashi: not sure what Zero's idea there is but I think a different grid will be some sort of new continent somewhere
[11:42] Vivienne Graves: but do you have a 100Mbps connection?
[11:42] You: Maybe Wyn, but we can always keep these avs and log into SL when we want to be here.
[11:42] Tao Takashi: even today you can run your own grid on them, JaneD ;-)
[11:42] Tao Takashi: but not connect to LL's
[11:42] You: That doesn't preclude us having a presence in other VWs as well
[11:42] Tao Takashi: regarding the AWG there are coders missing anyway..
[11:43] Wyn Galbraith wants a nexus or relto like in Uru, as a central avatar location.
[11:43] JaneD DeCuir: i know that, tao
[11:43] You: We do that now, I have two email addresses, three phone numbers, five addresses, a WOW account et al
[11:43] Tao Takashi: I don't see the big interop party happening right now
[11:43] Robin Linden: interesting Khamon. Sort of boggles the imagination - like walking through the looking glass
[11:43] Wyn Galbraith could then choose KhamonWorld, TaoTerra, SL or Joe's Garage.
[11:43] Robin Linden: but they're all on the SL map
[11:43] Tao Takashi: and I still think that this project needs to be advertised more
[11:43] Tao Takashi: outside SL that is
[11:44] Tao Takashi: and it still needs a good name
[11:44] Tao Takashi: and a good URL
[11:44] Robin Linden: there's an external working group that IBM is leading
[11:44] You: Yes go to the Mythical Gateway sim and fly over a border
[11:44] Robin Linden: consortium
[11:44] Tao Takashi: vwinterop, yes
[11:44] Wyn Galbraith: When Worlds Colide.
[11:44] Tao Takashi: this has at least some sort of good name ;-)
[11:44] You: ha ha ha we could even make it randomly connect so you'd have no idea which world you might fly into
[11:44] You: ha ha ha
[11:44] Wyn Galbraith: That would be fun!
[11:44] Tao Takashi: but it's just in the founding process right now anyway
[11:44] Robin Linden: would certainly take exploration to a whole new level!
[11:45] You: What do you mean by "missing programmers" Tao?
[11:45] Robin Linden: winterop is the name Tao?
[11:45] Tao Takashi: vwinterop.wikidot.com
[11:45] You: Robin it also takes responsibility to a whole new level.
[11:45] Tao Takashi: if you talk about the things started at San Jose
[11:45] Tao Takashi: in ;-)
[11:45] You: You said that AWG was missing programmers.
[11:45] Tao Takashi: I don't see that many people who are eager to implement something regarding AWG, Khamon
[11:46] Tao Takashi: or have the time
[11:46] Robin Linden: if open sim doesn't have the same feature set as SL, how would you know that when you cross into a new region?
[11:46] Tao Takashi: ok, OpenSim is there and it's quite active
[11:46] Tao Takashi: but nothing beside that and I am not sure the opensim guys are really participating in the AWG stuff
[11:46] Tao Takashi: they might use it when it's defined though
[11:46] Vivienne Graves: possibly with a warning popup ala beta grid...'Warning; the region you are entering is running a different simulator version'
[11:46] You: Yes I've actually run a two sim grid on my work PC.
[11:46] Wagahai Oddfellow: client with all of the features, but knows to disable unsupported functions
[11:46] Tao Takashi: then I don't really know who is part of opensim except Adam
[11:47] Tao Takashi: these compatbility issues are indeed discussed quite a bit ;-)
[11:47] Tao Takashi: like different geometry formats
[11:47] Tao Takashi: and what should happen if client X cannot display format C
[11:47] You: The open stardard would have to define that Robin. Required services, optional ones, methods of notification, default considerations and such
[11:48] Tao Takashi: and in the end this needs to be defined of course
[11:48] JaneD DeCuir: exactly defined
[11:48] You: You'd have to consider the applicants adherance to the standard as much as you would their ability to pay the connection fee.
[11:48] JaneD DeCuir: step by step..
[11:48] Tao Takashi: should be part of the TOS they need to comply to
[11:49] You: You also have to consider the number of people they might be bringing into the world. Quilting world might double the potential customer base of Second Life, are you going to charge them $200 a month to connect?
[11:49] Robin Linden: but opensim isn't the same as interoperability
[11:49] Robin Linden: so the standards group focused on interoperability wouldn't be addressing the kind of questions that come up as part of open sim
[11:49] Tao Takashi: opensim can be changed, in fact I think it's changing all the time ;-)
[11:49] You: No, opensim is actually geared toward people wanting to host their own, self defined grids.
[11:50] Robin Linden: and not connect into SL?
[11:50] You: right
[11:50] Tao Takashi: well, the client is apparently compatible to opensim
[11:50] Robin Linden: what would they use for a viewer?
[11:50] Tao Takashi: as this is what they use
[11:50] Robin Linden: one of the open source supported viewers
[11:50] Tao Takashi: so they adhere to the protocol but might implement some stuff differently
[11:50] Robin Linden: I imagine
[11:50] Tao Takashi: like different physics engine
[11:50] Mie Beck: hi
[11:51] Robin Linden: Hi Mie
[11:51] Robin Linden: please feel free to join us
[11:51] Mie Beck: hi Robin :))
[11:51] Mie Beck: thanks :)
[11:51] You: Something like the Supreme Emblem Club could open a grid and use the sims for meetings and displays and the types of things they do on their website now. It would host thousands of members and never need to connect to Second Life or any other grid.
[11:51] Mie Beck: what is this ???
[11:51] Mie Beck: :)
[11:51] JaneD DeCuir: puh
[11:51] Robin Linden: Interesting Khamon
[11:52] You: The Sourthern Baptist grid could be used to provide communication support and training for missionaries and churches around the world and support a few million residents without ever needing to connect to Second Life or any other grid.
[11:52] Mie Beck: hi Tao :)
[11:52] Tao Takashi: or german bloggers could open the German Bloggers Club based on this technology and pretend it is not Second Life ;-)
[11:52] Tao Takashi: Hi Mie :)
[11:52] Robin Linden: hahah Tao
[11:52] Tao Takashi: oh, the name of course is also reason for a lot of discussion ;-)
[11:53] JaneD DeCuir: they run their peivaze sl..
[11:53] Tao Takashi: you know, I already have a first life
[11:53] You: Well yes, if Germany insisted on much tighter restraints in VWs than Linden Lab was willing to impose, a company could offer that gridded service to them and never connect to Second Life or any other grid.
[11:53] You: We've already seen that community and economy only require a few thousand residents.
[11:53] Tao Takashi: well, not sure if we insist on that
[11:53] Tao Takashi: this is not the problerm here
[11:54] You: Just an example Tao
[11:54] Robin Linden: I feel like SL is one of those one-cell creatures that is dividing, and sub-dividing, and spawning an army
[11:54] Tao Takashi: maybe we like to copy and that is why we have a minimum of 3 VWs in development
[11:54] You: That's a good analogy Robin.
[11:54] JaneD DeCuir: VW?
[11:54] Wyn Galbraith: Boy rough day.
[11:54] Tao Takashi: so once the open source stuff takes off and it's truly open source then it might grow quite a bit
[11:54] Robin Linden: virtual world Jane
[11:55] JaneD DeCuir: thanks
[11:55] Tao Takashi: but for that it first needs to get truly open source ;-)
[11:55] Wyn Galbraith: LOL Army!
[11:56] Robin Linden: so are you thinking that these other worlds would exist apart from SL? I wonder where the copyright infringement sits in that one.
[11:56] Wyn Galbraith: With the individual owner of the separate grid, Robin.
[11:56] Tao Takashi: not sure I get the question ;-)
[11:57] Wyn Galbraith: Also laws could be decided easier, say if the grid lived in another country for example.
[11:57] Wyn Galbraith: We might have off shore grids where gambling is legal, like in RL.
[11:57] Tao Takashi: I think we will definitely have grids separate from LLs
[11:57] You: brb
[11:57] Wyn Galbraith is sure of it.
[11:58] Wyn Galbraith is already planning her own grid ;)
[11:58] Robin Linden: Yes Wyn, but the assumption is those worlds would connect into Second Life, so there's value realized by all.
[11:58] Tao Takashi: this will also stipulate innovation in that area
[11:58] Tao Takashi: it depends on two things basically: price and policy
[11:59] Robin Linden: The picture Khamon is painting has the worlds spinning off separately. In that case there's no value accrued to Linden Lab for the design and development of the software which has been reverse-engineered by open sim.
[11:59] Tao Takashi: maybe I want a different permission structure or something like that
[11:59] Robin Linden: I'm just curious.
[11:59] Wyn Galbraith: They could or may not. I would want to have my grid connected, so LL would have to define rules for that.
[11:59] Wagahai Oddfellow: Robin - this is where SL will really have to prove itself.. whichever "grid controller" has the best database, most uptime on it's network, etc.. that's where all of these sims will want to connect
[11:59] CapitaoClaw Charron: ahhh
[11:59] CapitaoClaw Charron: the book is on the table
[11:59] JaneD DeCuir: wyn, if the connection cost is very slow it sounds interesting
[11:59] Wyn Galbraith: Universities for example may want closed grids.
[11:59] Robin Linden: agreed Wagahi. a good challenge.
[11:59] Tao Takashi: so what is your intent for the AWG?
[11:59] Robin Linden: but they can have closed regions now, Wyn.
[11:59] Tao Takashi: to make everybody connect to SL?
[11:59] Wyn Galbraith: Companies, etc. But social grids might want to be open.
[11:59] BigMike Bukowski: Well that was awkward...
[11:59] Robin Linden: no Tao, I don't think so.
[12:00] Tao Takashi: or to get into some sort of internet platform thing and be a pioneerr
[12:00] Robin Linden: heya big Mike
[12:00] Tao Takashi: because we will end up in a decentralized world anyway
[12:00] Wyn Galbraith: True, Robin, though when the grids spin off to be run by other people, it will be a coice.
[12:00] BigMike Bukowski: I've been here, just quiet and listening :)
[12:00] Robin Linden: closer to that Tao. but at the end of the day, it's a business.
[12:00] Robin Linden: so it's important to think about how that all works.
[12:00] Vivienne Graves: but, open-sourcing the SL client and server code opens the door to precisely this sort of reverse-engineering; which is a stumbling block in the way of LL as a sort of ICANN for the metaverse
[12:01] Tao Takashi: of course but as I understood Ginsu even a small part of the whole thing in 10 years is still enough (not sure I got this right though ;-) )
[12:01] Wyn Galbraith: It's an exciting time. A time I thought would never happen outside of fiction.
[12:01] Robin Linden: could be Tao. I would assume so. I'm interested in hearing what the various pictures are that each person has in their heads about the possibility
[12:01] Tao Takashi: I think in the end it depends on how much attraction the SL grid will have
[12:01] Wyn Galbraith wants to send her avatar to Mars ;)
[12:01] Wagahai Oddfellow: the trick with open sim is that it really doesn't benefit SL unless SL is chosen as the place to connect to.. the can of worms is already open, there will be multiple opensim grids similar to SL in style
[12:01] Tao Takashi: right now it's of course the biggest because it's the only one ;-)
[12:02] Robin Linden: We all probably have our own visions
[12:02] Tao Takashi: and you have a lot of experience in that area
[12:02] Tao Takashi: although everybody complains ;-)
[12:02] Wyn Galbraith: What's interesting is that most visions can intersect with others.
[12:02] Tao Takashi: now what would happen if e.g. Yahoo would take that code and create their own grid?
[12:02] Robin Linden: It will be more interesting if that's what happens, I think Wyn
[12:03] Tao Takashi: nicely integreated with all their services
[12:03] Wyn Galbraith: Oh they will, so will Google.
[12:03] Tao Takashi: the things is actually, they will do that anyway
[12:03] McPhenius Swain: I thought Google abandoned their project
[12:03] Tao Takashi: and it would be better if they use the open standard we develop
[12:03] Wyn Galbraith: That's what they say.
[12:03] Wyn Galbraith: /laugh
[12:03] Tao Takashi: it might be different in some years anyway
[12:03] Robin Linden: undoubtedly
[12:04] Robin Linden: it's getting late, and I have to go
[12:04] Wyn Galbraith: In my life time we've gone from black and white tv to what we have now. That's really fast.
[12:04] Robin Linden: great discussion - I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I have
[12:04] Robin Linden: and slide rulers to iPhones!
[12:04] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Robin!
[12:04] Wyn Galbraith: Yep.
[12:04] Kooky Jetaime: Considering the speed from which we went to written word to printing press was what, 500 years?
[12:04] Wagahai Oddfellow: Robin - know if Meta will be there for the Friday office hours?
[12:04] JaneD DeCuir: yes robin
[12:04] Kooky Jetaime: if not more
[12:04] Tao Takashi: cya Robin! :)
[12:04] Wyn Galbraith: So VWs will grow just as quickly, the door is open now.
[12:04] Robin Linden: I don't Wagahai. But I'll suggest he put out a sign if he's not going to be
[12:04] Tao Takashi: I can also send you the MP3 of the radio interview, btw
[12:05] Wagahai Oddfellow: thx
[12:05] Tao Takashi: well, the radio special
[12:05] Robin Linden: thanks Tao
[12:05] Tao Takashi: so you can complain about what I said ;-)
[12:05] Robin Linden: bye everyone - thanks for coming!
[12:05] Wyn Galbraith gets all excited about new technology, "Seeing it come alive."
[12:05] Tao Takashi: take care :)
[12:05] Robin Linden: hahah never!
[12:05] Mie Beck: bye Linden :)
[12:05] Robin Linden: ciao!
[12:05] Wyn Galbraith: Bye Robin :D
[12:05] BigMike Bukowski: Seeya
[12:05] Lugo Lusch: see ya. bye miss linden
[12:05] You: Thanks for hosting Robin
[12:05] JaneD DeCuir: be careful robin
[12:05] You: too late
[12:05] Tao Takashi: there is not much left from what I said anyway ;-)
[12:05] JaneD DeCuir: tao
[12:06] Kooky Jetaime: ok, wrong, writing to press was almost 2000 years...
[12:06] Wyn Galbraith runs off to mentor.
[12:06] Kooky Jetaime: about 1700 or so
[12:06] JaneD DeCuir: du scheinst ja ne menge zu wissen
[12:06] JaneD DeCuir: tao
[12:06] Wyn Galbraith: Am I Ruth'd?
[12:06] Tao Takashi: Ich les ja auch blogs ;-)
[12:06] Kooky Jetaime: I'm off to TF2 since SL is hozered
[12:06] You: You know LL don't have to charge for connecting grids to SL, we just need some sort of clearing service to show that we've individually paid the necessary fees to access the grid.
[12:06] JaneD DeCuir: so was liest sich in den blogs?
[12:06] You: Just like I can charge people to enter my parcel now.
[12:07] Tao Takashi: naja, oder man erfährt es bei Office Hours
[12:07] Kooky Jetaime: Khamon - only below 128m :_)
[12:07] Wyn Galbraith: They shouldn't charge for connecting I think, because it brings people that might spend money here.
[12:07] JaneD DeCuir: und wo sind die? auch bei den lindens?
[12:07] Tao Takashi: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
[12:07] Tao Takashi: das hier war ja eine ;-)
[12:07] You: If I pay a monthly or annual susbscription, and have that av info tied to my Paypal account, then the clearance lets me in.
[12:07] Vivienne Graves: but...that's another issue; how the economy will function in a decentralised grid
[12:07] Kooky Jetaime: I saw someone set their parcel up for the pass system..... then set their area up at 600m... the pass system don't go up that high..heh
[12:07] JaneD DeCuir: also wenn ich das richtig verstanden habe, könnte jedermann/frau eine eigene externe sim an sl anhängen?
[12:07] Tao Takashi: currency etc. will definitely be an interesting topic
[12:08] You: If I haven't paid, I get bumped at the border with a message telling me that there's a fee involved.
[12:08] Tao Takashi: JaneD, genau. Ich werrde am 4.12. im comMeta noch darüber einen Vortrag halten
[12:08] Wyn Galbraith: Where are your papers!
[12:08] JaneD DeCuir: oder wie......
[12:08] You: I never thought about that
[12:08] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[12:08] Kooky Jetaime: Khamon - plus
[12:08] You: Height limits confuse the Khamon
[12:08] Kooky Jetaime: people will do the same thing to parcels like that, that I do to web sites like that...
[12:08] Kooky Jetaime: Oh, pay to use... GOOGLE!
[12:08] JaneD DeCuir: die hardware dazu hätte ich auch, nur mit meinem provider müsste ich wegen der bandbreite reden
[12:08] Kooky Jetaime: oh look, heres one thats almost the same but free
[12:09] Wyn Galbraith: Pay the Troll under the bridge.
[12:09] Wyn Galbraith: Troll fee.
[12:09] Kooky Jetaime: In order to pass thee, you must answer these questions three
[12:09] JaneD DeCuir: ich stell mir das so vor, dass ich da mein eigenes zeugs draufstellen kann und das ding umbauen kann wie es mir passt?
[12:09] You: Any given grid wouldn't *have* to charge a fee, or could only charge a fee for building priviledges or inventory crossovers or such
[12:09] Wyn Galbraith: LOL Kooky.
[12:09] Kooky Jetaime: What, is your name?
[12:09] You: But it's a more viable model than charging a single fee to connect one grid to another.
[12:09] Wyn Galbraith needs to go help someone if she can tp out of here.
[12:10] JaneD DeCuir: if the fee is small
[12:10] You: Good Luck Wyn
I forgot to make the point that Cocoanut Koala always very eloquently writes, about the reason for why the Platformista love to pretend it's all merely a grid, software, a platform, engineering, etc.
That's because then they get to have a Government with themselves in charge as coders, and no restraint from democratic institutions. It suits them just fine.
I also forgot to make the point sufficiently that Linden Lab could still exercise some shaping of Metaversal governance buy making those to whom it licenses its software adhere to a TOS or agreement to abide by the Big Six of Community Standards -- or some reasonable facsimile, the Big Four or something (no incitement to racial hatred, etc.)
Likely they'd be reluctant to do this, they hate enforcement, and likely their new customers would like being told what to do -- though they routinely sign such agreements with far less freedom in them when they sign up for web hosting or Internet service providers.
Typepad, this blog, for example, has something like a Big Six that you have to agree to not only to run a blog, but to be a paid partner getting advantage yourself for bringing in subscribers.
This practice is so standard everywhere on the Internet that the Lindens should be actively planning how they will word this to be Better, or it will default to the legal boilerplate that Ginsu and co. delight in crafting.
There's probably little you can do to enforce things like that on open-source software, I don't know the field of practice here.
Europeans who imagine they will make unlimited gambling dens and Americans who imagine they will make unlimited capture rape and ageplay dens likely have another thing coming when the same media, law-enforcement, and parliament that went after Second Life comes after them, too.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/21/2007 at 11:34 AM
Another thing we need to investigate about bank fraud is something Michael Linden said at a Governance meeting in which he admitted LL "returns Lindens to people when they have been stolen" -- we have to ask whether this means individuals, banks, or what the determination is involving theft and fraud.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/21/2007 at 11:46 AM
I'm a tad confused now. Why would anyone want to connect to the SL grid when LL is incapable of keeping it running for more than a few hours without major problems? I have attended some of these office hours and meetings with Lindens in world. I have yet to attend one or read a transcript in which a decision or commitment was made. Nor have I witnessed any of them having a Linden that revealed anything of importance. Seems to be tea party mentality where gossip is the primary agenda. So why bother?
The holidays are here. I do hope they scrabble SL back together enough to stay up until mid January when they show back up at work. SL runs much better without LL intervention and sabotage.
I don't think anyone at LL is old enough to understand that being able to say, especially when they are old, that they were part of something great is as useful as wet toilet paper. I have been part of many great things. And nobody gives a rat's ass or a damn about the past and what you may or may not have been part of. All that matters is how well you are doing right now today and what people think of your work. And the good ship left the LL dock a long time ago leaving nothing but the rat infested rusted junk boat sunk into the tidal mud beside the LL dock.
And LL is so busy in the mirror that they are even missing that boat.
Posted by: Ann Otoole | 11/21/2007 at 01:31 PM
I'm not sure Robin is being kept in the loop. I'm sure I read some quotes from Philip that suggested that other grids would be available but they'd be charged a fee to connect to the main grid (Where all the action is) but the way it was worded didn't suggest it would be a requirement, just that it would make sense to want to be part of the main grid.
Posted by: Ciaran Laval | 11/21/2007 at 08:28 PM
You can read their plan for 2008 openly at Zero's office or other Lindens' office spaces, there's a Powerpoint that shows alternative grids, I think they do envision not having them join through the core SL.
I think it's not an issue of being "in the loop"; I think it's a matter of the Lindens imagining that they can opensource this AND have everyone still keep dealing with them as the center of the universe. Some of us may be willing to do that. A lot aren't.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/22/2007 at 03:38 AM
I believe Robin sometimes uses the deer effect to facilitate the conversation by making people explain, in detail, what they're thinking. I have to agree with Ann, only from a bit different perspective. There are many examples of groups and organizations that could utilize this software without ever needing to tap into the world of Second Life. In fact, a number of them would support so many regular users that I'd expect LL to pay *them* to connect that potential customer base to The Grid All Hail The Central Grid.
That's no threat to SL though. Opening a paint store in Selma is not going to ruin the business of the furniture store up the street. While they might gain some benefit from sharing a connected space, they'll function okay on their own and not be any direct competition to one another.
btw, if you're thinking that you can't believe that Prokofy would ever say some of these things, you're right. Jarod's already yelled across the room OMG PROK SOUNDS JUST LIKE YOU! I submitted the transcript before replacing the term "you:" with "Khamon Fate:" but promise to remember in the future to avoid any confusion.
Posted by: Khamon Fate | 11/23/2007 at 11:13 AM
OH, sorry about that "you" Khamon, should have made that clear!
I think after a few days in the paint store in Selma, you will get bored and look for some action at the furniture shop up the street, and then you will need the statehouse to connect you, because they build the roads.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/23/2007 at 01:23 PM