« A-Voiding The Issue | Main | New Virtual Company or Old Communist Collective? »

06/30/2008

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Ordinal Malaprop

Ah. Livejournal. A specialist subject. (I have been a Livejournal user for almost exactly seven years.)

Firstly, SUP have not actually moved to a paid-only model - they have just removed ad-free accounts, keeping two levels, free but with ads and paid but without ads and with extra features. Most people are not horribly concerned about this.

I have seen the signup system for Livejournal change over the years and the difference in content caused by reduced barriers to entry - which is really what having free accounts is about, it isn't about whether people _can_ pay or not, it's the psychological barrier - has been remarkable.

Initially when I joined there was one of these daft "invite code" systems which get used occasionally, users being able to generate codes to allow free users to join if they didn't want to pay, which mostly led to not many people joining and a lot of very irritating begging for codes.

Of course, at that point, Livejournal was ahead of its time. It had many features that are considered essential for "social networking" sites, a proper authenticated comment system, friend groups, communities with their own discussion areas. This actually put off "serious bloggers", who really just wanted to write their own big screeds and took comments from the few readers that existed via email, but for other people it was enough that they were willing to put up with the signups and the technical problems (rampant back then).

Removing the invite code system and allowing people to sign up for basic accounts _dramatically_ increased the amount of worthwhile - and of course worthless - content on the network. The social network systems made this valuable to a far broader range of people than standard blogs and sites. It was so much _easier_ to find things on Livejournal, following friend links and going via communities, and pick out what was good that you wanted to continue to follow, than any other blogging system. RSS readers were not really known about, there were no trackbacks and pingbacks.

-

Where Livejournal failed in my opinion was at about the point when MySpace came out. MySpace is an entirely inferior system in my opinion but it did offer a few things that LJ didn't: the ability to completely customise blog appearance (LJ's customisation has always been immensely clunky and the standard templates back then were very dull) and also, a focus on posting music. Video wasn't as important back then but MySpace made it far easier to link to and play music, whereas LJ _still_ makes it a pain in the backside and filters your HTML to stop you embedding non-approved players etc.

People go to places where they can find what they are interested in and where the barriers to entry are low, and people were interested in music on the internet, and MySpace had friend lists and groups and all that just as LJ did. LJ didn't so much lose users as not gain many new ones.

-

In a lot of ways LJ shares characteristics with SL...

* Ahead of their time at the start with features that nobody else offered;
* Lots of user-generated content and community groups, which attracted and maintained a loyal user base;
* Large non-US/UK presence, particularly, as you say, Russians;
* Free and paid account system;
* Horrible technical issues and extensive downtime, in the first few years, though this got better, before the 6A buyout;
* Great sense of entitlement by paid users despite them already having specific benefits;
* Lots of sky-is-falling drama at every change;
* No shortage of furries.

After the 6A buyout it also had:

* Kneejerk mass content removals and bannings based on moral panics.

(6A's time running Livejournal is not generally regarded as a success. They did tidy up a few things but mismanaged the community and did silly things like add Facebook-style "presents" and so on.)

LJ, of course, is still active, and has become more interesting as more people join and also as the teenagers and young adults who joined originally, and have stayed around, grow up and become better writers. It's a lot more respectable now than it used to be. This last part doesn't have a specific correlation to SL where the average age is much higher, and if people haven't grown up by now they probably never will.

But the fact that it has survived huge technical issues, losing its monopoly on its innovative features and missing the boat on a big internet phenomenon might have a few pointers:

* LJ did introduce some new features like WAP access and voice and email posting, but generally these were actually _useful_, and they mostly concentrated on network failures and system access, and they managed to solve that problem. Nobody cares whether they can send somebody a virtual teddy bear for $0.50 if they can't even read their friends list.

Incidentally, if I recall correctly, they did introduce a "priority login for paid users" system at some point.

* LJ, at least before the 6A buyout, paid attention to user community groups and didn't mess them about. Too much. It was never that interested in determining what could and couldn't be said, though I'm sure that there will be people who disagree with that. There are and always have been plenty of adult groups on LJ without endless "but what if a CHILD sees this?" hand-wringing and clumsy coded non-solutions.

* Actually, LJ never really seemed to me to have a social agenda as a company. Brad was not... whatever that irritating Facebook guy's name is. There wasn't any self-important "we are saving the world" stuff, even when people did use LJ for political reasons and organisation. It was a social communication tool, as trivial or important as the communication that took place on it.

Ordinal Malaprop

Oh, and LJ is and always has been open source. There are a few alternative networks that have been set up by others. However, it has not had issues with security, possibly because it was _designed_ to be open source and thus didn't contain lots of little shortcuts and hacks that depended on people not knowing what you were doing. To be fair, it is also a lot less complex than SL.

none

LJ is still free for old users. I don't think they allow basic, advertising free accounts now. That whole situation was mishandled when making the transition to Six Apart and then to SUP. They made crazy deletions to different communities. Some were reasonable but others based on ignorance. They actually deleted a reading community that was in the process of discussing Lolita. It was after that I cancelled my premium account. I was a premium user there for 2 years and paid more on top of that for their scrapbook and bigger icon storage. Like other users I moved to Insanejournal and now I'm a premium user there. Squeaky, IJ's manager, offers very nice service. But again, he is overrun with free accounts. I don't know how long he can operate on that model.

Eve Online seems to be the exception of all these online worlds. WoW is a total subscription based game and I see the same "my way or the highway" attitude towards it's users as SL. So being a premium, subscription paying user doesn't seem to add value either. I don't know what the solution is, honestly.

On one hand the developers of these worlds want to present their creations as the virtual equivalent of small nations. But then they balk when the users actually request services that nations offer, such as government, land zoning and proper security. They need to settle on a definition, they are either a game or a nation.

Eric Reuters

Prok -

The "Reuters" article you linked to is actually a press release hosted on the reuters.com domain. (Scrutinize the URL. I know, it's an imperfect system.)

May I suggest instead your readers consult the LJ elections story Reuters/SL ran?

http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2008/05/29/elections-if-not-democracy-spread-to-livejournal/

Prokofy Neva

Thanks for that correction, Eric. That's odd, I just grabbed what seemed like the URL that went with that article.

Ordinal, that was a fascinating back story. Loved it, and thanks for taking the time to put it all down.

If the issue was only having to put up with some ads to get the service for free, I suppose something like you do with Yahoo, my God, what the hell was Dana Boyd's problem?! She couldn't bear any hint of capitalism on her pristine dear diary?!

I'm not certain that they mishandled this issue of the free accounts. There's probably no good way to get rid of free accounts, who are going to howl no matter what. But why should the middle class and the VCs go on carrying the masses and their asses endlessly?

I'm all for easy entrance to markets. They could make it cheaper ($14.00 feels like too much for me even here on my blog, and I really think they need to find a model where they let me get paid at least micropayments for ads they give me to pick, or take a cut from, or something, on a blog like this).

As for the deletions, I am reading that they faced the same exact issues as Second Life -- ageplayers, BDSM, furries. Did they cut furry communities or something that they really had no business to cut? Well, I'd love to hear the cases -- and from what I gather, they are reviewing the cuts and making restorations.

Brad *is* a Save-the-World type if he lines up Danah Boyd and Lawrence Lessig on the advisory board -- it's a political statement.

Ordinal, what I'm reading everywhere is that the service lost bunches of customers when Six Apart took over, but not because the Russian company then bought it later. Why did people leave?

I went on Live Journal for about a day -- I'm like a SL sign-up who never left orientation island. It simply didn't have enough features, like Typepad does, for pay. I'd simply rather pay and get the features.

I went back to LJ a few times when I needed a quick free blog, but I could also do that on Typepad for 30 days.

Even though I practically mainline news on Russia every day for my work, I don't find myself very often going to read any Russian Live Journal. I wonder why that is. I guess because there are numerous lifestyle or diary type of journals but not political ones, or those that are political are awful right-wing dreck. Occasionally in clicking around a story on tech or virtual worlds I will get to an LJ that is good -- but all that threading stuff keeps me away sometimes.

none

So Eve Online got around to doing SL Views-style chats with their members?

Elections? Come on. Popularity contests, more like. One avatar, one vote? Preposterous in a world of anonymised alts.

I bet the handpicked Company SL Views people would be more egalitarian than the elected.

You'll get some gorean master, the King of the Furries, Cristiano and Flip getting elected. And maybe you.

Might be entertaining, but that's all it would be. At the end of the day, residents vote with their dollars.

Ordinal Malaprop

I don't think that the majority of users really care in the slightest about the elimination of the ad-free level. The system before that was a bit of a mess - there were three levels, (a) free with no ads, (b) free with ads and a few extra functions, more user pictures, that sort of thing and (c) paid or permanent with no ads and full access to all functions. Really, having (a) and (b) together was a little redundant, I always felt. People are so used to ads on the net as being part of the deal they are getting for free access that they aren't really concerned any more - they'd _prefer_ no ads but they're not that exercised by the idea. A huge number of them will be signing up for LJ with Hotmail or Gmail accounts, after all, which have ads built in.

It was decent of them to grandfather older accounts without ads, but I doubt this will affect their takeup in the slightest. The "free = ads, paid = no ads" model is generally well-accepted. I doubt that the company is exactly making vast amounts of money from this and rubbing their hands with glee about it.

-

Actually, the micropayments thing is a point with LJ, in that, unlike most other blogging systems, I don't believe that they have a system letting you do anything like syndicate ads in a sidebar. Though I may have missed that somewhere.

-

There were a few different issues regarding censorship. In general, they were fan-related - one thing that LJ does have is a huge number of fan communities, people posting fan-fiction and fan-art and talking about their favourite series and all that sort of thing. It's not really something I am that familiar with but I am told that LJ is definitely the best network to be on if you are - like, if you have a band and want to promote it, you really have to have a MySpace profile whether you like it or not.

I am trying to remember the exact details of the incidents but I have to say it's a bit vague. There was certainly a big kerfuffle about some Harry Potter slash pictures being removed because they might have been interpreted as paedophilic (despite assorted disclaimers etc - it wasn't a legally credible move) and blanket bans being laid down. There was another recent one too.

I think the reactions were a tad overblown but, really, these are your customers, many of them pay you money and the others keep the paying ones paying, lots of them want to do this sort of thing, you are not legally required to act here, there isn't even any overwhelming commercial impulse, so... don't annoy them. And don't give the impression that you might be cutting things without warning in the future in other contexts - that was why people left during the 6A reign, I think.

This is another SL parallel really - rules which are well-known and which have always been enforced don't cause bother. Rules which are suddenly made up and acted on without warning cause disruption.

-

As for SUP - it's a bit hard for me to say, not speaking Russian or really knowing any Russians on LJ, but I will give it a try. Firstly, the easily-dismissable group - there were quite a few dim non-Russians who squawked about it on the "oh no they are selling to Russians they are all gangsters and spammers" level, but I doubt more than about three left because of that, and they would have had free accounts anyway.

However, SUP as I understand it is a subsidiary of some larger media group related to Putin or his faction or a related faction - I don't pretend to know the details of Russian politics and business here, but suffice to say that the evidence of association and associated deliberate bias did seem to me to be very credible.

How much actual _difference_ that could make on the other hand is debatable. Casual censorship I think would be very unlikely, given that (a) news of it and reproductions of the removed posts would spread within minutes across the globe - trying censorship in social networks is a really bad idea! (b) servers are still hosted and run in the US anyway and (c) it would drastically harm their business. There is always the chance that your personal details and IP addresses and so on could be harvested, but I'd imagine that most of the time that won't be a significant issue. If you are maintaining an anonymous blog on a subject which the Authorities might want to interfere with you take precautions _anyway_ to disguise these things - either that or you make sure that you are widely-known enough that your disappearance or prosecution will be remarked upon.

Still, I would be distinctly uncomfortable if I was a member of a network that was sold to a company which had political connections that I wasn't in sympathy with, and I'm sure that there is the potential for interference, so I will sit on the fence a bit on this issue.

I'm not quite sure why LJ is so popular in Russia. It is probably just one of these historical accidents. It had multilingual support quite early which might have contributed to this, but I've noticed it for a while - there were updates made from within the Beslan siege, using LJ's WAP portal, which was pretty innovative at the time. Even casually I notice, for instance, in photo communities that a lot more Russian comments and usernames appear than I ever see anywhere else.

I'm sure that just as with every other damned network, the majority of Russian users are just posting about how they got so drunk last night, with pictures of their cats.

Ciaran Laval

Livejournal is still going very strong. The argument was about new accounts having to carry adverts. I still have a paid LJ account, it's very cheap. Old basic accounts weren't forced to carry adverts.

Six apart went on a strange crusade of banning default pictures of breastfeeding mothers. It's the sort of issue that nobody really notices until someone in management decides boobies are bad, a bit like Linden Lab and the child avatar issues that came to light over SL5B, shooting yourself in the foot over something people only notice when you point it out.

I still think LJ is the daddy of the social networking outlets, it may not be the most popular but in terms of substance it is far superior to the likes of Myspace.

Prokofy Neva

Ordinal, this Wired story has a lot of interesting information:
http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2006/11/72060?currentPage=3

You have to figure anything in Russia related to media with more than 99 people reading/accessing it (that's the press law limit for registering a press outlet I believe) is going to be controlled to some extent or another by the Kremlin. That's just how they are.

Wired talks about Six Apart having a bargaining position with putative KGB (actually they're called FSB now) or mafia types pressuring them, by saying the entire community would have to close and the deal would be lost. Then you'd have to hope that either the KGB or mafia types would see the value in keeping a community they could go on scraping data from, the way they would let certain samizdat authors remain free of jail to be able to track them and their contacts, or whether they'd prefer to roll them all up and send a paralyzing signal -- which they are also capable of, especially before "elections" in the "managed democracy".

I think the simple interface yet Internety cachet that LJ brings made it popular, and also I think people love saying "ZheZhe" in Russian lol. Someone the literal name makes it sound really "alive" in Russian; it came at a time when so many things were being shut down or terribly sanitized.

I really am NOT getting the problem with having free accounts but with ads. For Danah Boyd to be cranking about that is insane -- if that's what in fact she is still doing. Free accounts have to get paid for SOMEHOW. To put it in such personalized terms as she has, "I pay for my account and I want my readers to be able to get on for free easily and read me" seems really short-sighted and self-referential to me.

I'll ask you the same question I asked on the Herald: please tell me the European, Asian, or Latin American cities that allow people to go around bare breasted or with their parts hanging out. And please point me to the European blogging service that enables you to post naked breasts.

Most U.S. jurisdictions allow breast-feeding in public and art work with breast-feeding mothers. Of course, it can vary from state to state, this is the sort of thing that federal law does not control.

But the notion that somehow the U.S. alone among nations is puritanical about this is absurd. Please show me the British, Irish, Spanish etc blogs, newspapers, and cities where you can routinely put up naked people. Perhaps they have somewhat more tolerance of breast-feeding pictures but I have to wonder if breastfeeding is even making a comeback in Europe among young mothers the way it is in the US.

Ciaran Laval

Oh please, I never mentioned America being more puritanical, Americans were the most outraged about the issue.

There are lots of naked bits on livejournal, nobody banned them completely.

Erbo Evans

Unfortunately, EVE's Council of Stellar Management has turned out to be not all it's cracked up to be, at least thusfar. They haven't completely decided on their own rules yet, there have been complaints flying about their operations, and CCP hasn't provided a lot of guidance. It's too soon to tell if they're destined to become an "EVE FIC," though.

The good news is, as an EVE pilot and corp director myself, I can tell you that whatever the CSM is up to means very little to us, in the context of what we do on a day-to-day basis. We mine, we make stuff, we buy and sell stuff. We don't go around ganking people and we don't smacktalk (loose lips sink ships!). And we take care of our own. It works for us, and we don't really care what the CSM yaks about.

Melissa Yeuxdoux

"Please show me the British, Irish, Spanish etc blogs, newspapers, and cities where you can routinely put up naked people."

Ask and ye shall receive: Google "page three girl" and take a look at the results.

Prokofy Neva

Um, that's a girl in a tabloid newspaper, dear -- that's great. Thanks! But...where's the rest of what I said: real life cities you can walk down. That's what people on the Herald claim. They claim that half the world grabs their balls in public and shows their tits in public -- not in Africa. And that's just silly, they don't.

Ciaran Laval

Well you see a lot of breasts on the beaches in Spain but no people aren't generally doing their shopping topless.

Calling The Sun a newspaper, even a tabloid newspaper, is stretching it.

GeekMommy

A lengthy but well-written article. As someone with a "permanent" LJ account I've had an account there for nearly 7 yrs now.

Every time they try to monetize, the free-loaders who run dozens of accounts to maintain their 'special writing' 'poetry' 'fake identities' and 'not for public consumption' personas throw hissy fits.
They claim that they are producing the content that is the substance of what LJ has to offer the advertisers.
My reaction has always been a sort of 'oh really? So the 3 people reading your poetry LJ should be reason enough for them to afford you the server space?'
But that's not a popular attitude.

I bought my 'permanent' account at a price that far exceeded the annual amounts I would've paid had I just stayed month to month for 7 yrs... but not until I'd been on there for at least 4.

Even so, if tomorrow, the Russians said "sorry, all Permanent Accounts are being converted back to paid accounts w/ X months credit" I wouldn't be surprised nor rage. After all, the ToS are worded such that they can. They were when I bought it even.

There is the belief that if we 'give everyone what we have and like' they will appreciate it... and us for giving it to them. The reality is that all too often, they not only don't appreciate it, they resent us for giving it to them.

Something hard-earned is always more valued than something gifted - is it not?

rightasrain

point about LL allowing better access to newbies/community is an important issue for SL. And when they gonna take some better photos for their website...is spectacularly awful and has not changed in very long time. Makes me wonder if there even is a marketing department over there? But LL should just give up on community and release their tools more completely to people that want to use the platform to make their own communities.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name and email address are required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Blog powered by Typepad

Advertisements

Ads.text

  • Ads Text
    google.com, pub-2776838938932602, DIRECT, f08c47fec0942fa0