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Callum isn't "three or four", he's one.

And I don't appreciate you putting a knock in on me. I make my living generating IP.

My cavalier attitude is toward fake "security theater" methods of "protecting" IP.

Ann Otoole

It is quite a display of rank unprofessionalism that clearly indicates the people involved are unfit for any employment and thus are unfit to be associated with any coding effort involved with SecondLife. Linden Lab needs to get this clue pretty quick. These type people will not produce quality code and they are not software engineers. The entire episode is disgusting and LL needs to suspend the accounts involved in the profane attacks.

This is utter childishness. This new CEO needs to commence the purge that has been needed for a long time.

Fruit Sorbet

About damn right.

Patch or GTFO.

Time someone said it out loud.

Dale Innis

"particularly loony and aggressive arrogant coder fucks -- and that's a report, not a name": I'm not clear on how calling someone a "fuck" can be a "report, not a name"? Just what objective fact do you consider the word "fuck" to be reporting in this case?

Prokofy Neva

Yes, Gigs, we realize that you belong to the school of thought that says "no business but my business" and "your information wants to be free, mine is available for a consulting fee, however" and "protection of your IP is security theater, but protection of my IP is a national emergency." Yeah, we get all that.

Dale, contemplate how it applies to you, and then you have your report. If you continue to have questions, let me roll you a donut to take a flying fuck to. Practices such as closing other people's feature proposals are among the many fucktard traits one can find on the JIRA. If you are challenged in recognizing this, I can't help.

Ann, you always want to solve everything by firings and court injunctions, and nobody is going to do this.

The Lindens are not likely to fire any coders. M Linden is not likely to get involved in the code. I think as long as Philip is CEO there, even if that means being kicked upstairs, he will make sure the code cave is protected. He has his oldest comrades in the company there, and he will watch their back, and they watch each others' backs.

Other than Corey leaving, I've never seen any grand exit of anybody associated with the code, have you? Code is sacred.

Community directors, customer relations experts, governance team staff, liaisons -- all those people get canned or revolve out the door or go back to being residents with lucrative businesses.

But coders? Never.

What might happen is that those code Lindens will close the list however and cease to be public about what they do, and that's worse.

Yumi Murakami

I actually agree with Prok here. The tradeoff of performance against security in the SL protocol is a major issue, but it's unfair that many of the people whose security is affected shouldn't be involved in deciding how the tradeoff is resolved.

I suppose the ideal would be that each content creator would be given a slider to choose the level of protection they wanted applied to their content on clients - higher is more safe but slower.

Maggie Darwin

It's a conundrum...

Is software engineering a democracy? Usually not. People voting on how to code doesn't work unless they know how to code. The "voting" on JIRA is a way to measure what bugs cause people the most pain. It's a triage, not a forum for referenda or a governance mechanism....at least, that's how the folks at Atlassian conceived it. Engineering--software or otherwise--can't be done by constant plebecite...would you ride in an airliner steered by conducting a vote among the passengers?

Who owns the code? Prok wants to own his "land", and I understand that...but the code makes the "land" happen; if the code is hijacked, the "land" may become worthless.

Some of the biggest JIRArguments of late have stemmed from disagreements about "how it is supposed to work"; about what is a bug and what is a feature.

There is no formal definition of that, and there needs to be; specifcation must be independant from implementation or you will never know what "working right" is.

Maybe code isn't law...maybe code *needs* law. Because right now this codebase is pretty much lawless.

Prokofy Neva

Maggie, you don't seem to realize that the JIRA isn't just for bug reports. The old Feature Voting Tool, which didn't allow you to edit or close another's proposal, but merely gather votes and comments, was summarily closed, after being gutted by Angel Fluffy, who made "reforming" it a cover for destroying it. It was put to death by Torley, who claimed it would all be ported to the new JIRA -- but nothing of the kind happened.

In fact, this was one of the more Orwellian acts of Torley in the history of SL, really chilling. And so few people noticed or tried to do anything...

The JIRA isn't a very good place for discussing social issues, no...and yet we do have the right to make feature proposals.

When we do that, we're subject to the kind of arrogant bullshit that Strife Onizuka can put up on a simple request to have Lindens put a citation of offending speech in their actions. Strife made the most appalling responses about any requirement to do so would mean that the moderator couldn't read between the lines and fill the gaps and guess the outcome of what in fact was unacceptable (?!). Honestly, I don't make up this stuff...

Bug and feature are very political concepts, really, and heavily politicized by the coders of SL. A good example is the SAVE CHANGES debate with the obsessive and controlling Gigs Taggart. You could use logic, reason, and use cases to say that an UPDATE button was sufficient for updating classifieds and you didn't need a clunky, intrusive, and annoying SAVE CHANGES? dialogue that would require rippling through various ads. If you have a lot of ads, this is a huge nuisance.

You could explain and explain that UPDATE was plenty, and if someone didn't press UPDATE, and their ad didn't change and they got billed again because the box was checked off, well, it's like the land menu -- you can only babysit people so once.

But because Gigs himself had once had a $5000 ad repeat on him because he didn't press UPDATE after unclicking the box, he felt the entire population of SL had to be inconvenienced for ever by taking care of this "bug".

I maintained that there was no bug, and common sense and logic would not introduce a different saving regimen than already obtained on the browser, namely UPDATE or change saved by default, without user action (ideal).

You couldn't get any reason to sink into his head on this. And that's because like others with a stranglehold on the JIRA, they are hugely selfish, narrowminded, and narcissistic, always looking for applause for actions that they claim are altruistic, always looking to have their way, and never able to see beyond their narrow agenda.

The inconveniencing of people over and over again was so far a worse problem than the occasional loss because of a checkbox -- My God, if I were spending $5000 on an ad, I would never check "repeat" on it anyway! that kind of expenditure should never consciously be checked off as recurring, it's far more prudent to review it each week.

I do think your point is correct, however, that code needs law, and that there also can be the rule of law over coders within the universe of their coding. Democracy is part of maintaining the rule of law; but first you need to have the rule of law above coders. And that means the Lindens answering the questions I've posed. They're not going to do that, but I think at least I identified the heart of the problem: their seeming inaction and ambivalence which is just a kind of step dance until they open source or IPO and offload these legal problems on someone else.

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