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06/18/2008

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Desmond Shang

Ah, honestly, Torley would have to work hard against your fifteen minutes of hate, Prok.

Torley would be roasting marshmallows at the Apocalypse - and I like people who are just cool that way.

Torley rocks, and quite frankly, I'd share a marshmallow or two at that campfire myself.

* * * * *

Once upon a time, I used to be a 'big fish in a tiny pond' so to speak, in a corporate sort of way. The details don't really matter.

But occasionally, a troubled middle manager would come to me with some apparently intractable people-problem or corporate-culture problem... or just not get why employees, or management or colleagues or customers didn't respond "properly."

If it was someone in the department I was responsible for, I'd take them to lunch, and hear 'em out. Not say much.

On the way back, I'd find a hill or flyover offramp or something - anything with a panoramic view of Southern California. On a clear day you could see from downtown Los Angeles, to Pasadena, to Palos Verdes to the Irvine hills.

"Look out across there... how many companies are out there, do you think?"

I'd get various answers.

"How many of them are run by smart people, do you think?"

"How many are ethical?"

More answers.

"How many are pretty much just like here, or are going to be in a big hurry?"

Right about then, the penny dropped and they understood - usually.

And at about this point, people generally cooled off enough to solve the problem-du-jour with their humanity intact. By themselves. At which point, everyone else usually responded in a similar manner.

Prok, there's a lot more nonsense going on than I think even you would imagine - I get told stuff, unasked, regardless if I want to hear it or not. If even 5% of it is true, I can promise you that chewing on Torley isn't going to change anything. They are human, and yeah, people are gonna make mistakes. Sometimes it's the reaction to the mistakes that is bigger and worse than the mistake itself.

* * * * *

By the way, Prok, I saw an article on gadget-buyers. Seems there are some interesting trait-correlations: assertiveness and arrogancy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080618/tc_nm/gadgets_personalities_life_dc;

Geek culture has at last been measured! A historic day indeed :)

Prokofy Neva

Desmond, I'm sorry, but that's a lot of smarmy shilling.

If I criticize something, I marshal the arguments, I make the critique, and I publish my blog. My motivation isn't "hate" or "vitriol," but more often than not, a sense that I've seen through a load of crap.

When people harass and attack me, I push back -- hard. They then spout against about "hate and vitriol". Trust me, if I need to do hate and vitriol, I do hate and vitriol, as I wrote in the comments today: I hate geeks in Second Life in the opensource movement.

Why? Because they are raging little assholes. Because they are stupid, dense, mean-spirited. They are arrogant, cocky, and insolent. They include some of the WORST people in Second Life, in terms of character and behaviour. They lie. Sometimes right to your face. They are not ethical.

Oh, sure, there are some decent sorts in the opensource cabal, but not really. The coding cabal of the JIRA contains some of the most *awful* suck-ups to Lindens, and oppressors of other people, in SL. It really is something to make you gasp. So I do. And I do hate that, and I do write that I hate it. Trust me, when I hate something, you'll hear about it.

I won't be suppressing it under a rainbox and a unicorn on a YouTube. I won't talk about being "gladdicted" (can we throw up a little over THAT one?!)

Torley is hugely stubborn, incredibly tenacious, and frankly pretty nasty when it comes to getting his way on things he should not be getting his way on. And it needs to be said, and we need to push back or this crap will take over.

The campaign by Torley to whitewash and sanctify Windlight wasn't something that only I noticed, or only because I'm sour about geeks or Watermelindens, but even Hamlet, with his throngs of admirers, were saying the same thing -- and Hamlet was doing it was industry research he cited, and frankly, using arguments I would never have thought about, even playing the gender card -- read his last few blogs.

So, sorry, but this is war. Torley may be all sweet and colourful and all that, but it's a ruse. It is war. It's about making SL accessible and usable for more kinds of people than just the geeks of Linden Lane, or it's not.

What someone like Torley is about at the end of the day, under the guise of "orientation" is basically recruiting people to a kind of cult (and maybe I don't need to be using the adjective "kind of"). It's more about circling the wagons, ensuring loyalty, gaining followers, gathering the fold, etc. And that's why I loathe it.

Your five-minute-manager claptrap replete with hoary Old Doc talks looking down at the California vistas is hilarious, Desmond. Do you ever laugh at yourself wheeling out that sort of thing? This isn't about being a "people person". Like I said, it's about war. It's about tribal and ethnic conflict, and that's the sort of stuff you battle to the death.

Desmond Shang

Prok, in the grand scheme of things it is *not* war, it's not tribal and ethnic conflict and it is most certainly *not* something to battle to the death!

I'll presume you are speaking a bit figuratively, but even so - this is a bit over the top, yeah?

Torley has enough class to let this sort of thing go. There's no Torley response here, you'll say what you say - and I'll bet that *even after all this* - if you went to Torley with an issue, you would get help.

I've seen corporate evil before, and honestly... this ain't it.

* * * * *

Someone's really gotta make a watermelon-toned 'Cult of Torley' tee shirt or something. I'd buy one.

Next Up:

Prok goes after the cheerful cruise director of the Love Boat, Mr Rogers and the Keebler Elf.

HBA

Hi Prok,

I really don’t know what to make of this. I just don’t see Torley as being full of hate. He may be a very happy fella, but I don’t see that as masking an underlying hatred – I just think he’s that rare enough thing; happy & positive about life.

I also don’t see him recruiting or gathering a cult – you have to give us poor non-techy, non-‘political’ users some credit. Just because Torley is happy and produces nice video tutorials doesn’t mean I (or anyone I know) would suddenly wear a tag “Torley Jones is God” and drink kool-aid. Just as I don’t wander about wearing a tag “Prok is God”, or “Desmond is God”. You all three seem like decent, intelligent people but I think most of the folks I know are mature enough not to want to feed any of you peeled grapes.

Also (last point, I promise) I don’t know what is so bad about techy types. Or rather I do in the context of what you are fighting against, but surely that can’t be all techy types. Some will be mean and narrow minded, but then a lot of folks are. Some techy types in SL must be nice and helpful and inclusive. To label them all in negative terms would include people like Ordinal (and she seems quite lovely, really).

HBA
****

Nicholaz Beresford

Not sure about the Newspeak bit in "gaussian blur", but it most likely refers to a function in Photoshop to blur an image.

ichabod Antfarm

HBA, I think there is a significant difference between being technical and being a techie. The one refers to a skill set, the other to a lifestyle with all its attendant ideologies and, um, MindJunk (TM). The former does not necessarily lead to the latter. In fact, it's been my experience that "techies" tend to be less technical than merely vocal about their "superior" skills - a kind of compensatory behaviour. SL is full of technical people that have nothing to do with "techie" or Prokofy's Geek Religion. They can all crank out C++ but that simple fact does not inform their whole existence.

Torley's "oh my gosh, shiny happy people rule (and ought to!)" attitude is extremely off-putting to me. I fear that, prior to logging in, he would have us all do jumping jacks and sing the SL National Anthem so, yes, I think the Oceania analogy works. Where Torley sees a bright new watermelon coloured world of niceness and never saying NO, I see a torchlight parade and a pile of smoldering books. Sorry about the hyperbole but to my mind it ain't that much of a stretch.

Simondo Nebestanka

Over time I've become an avid fan of both Torley Linden and Prokofy Neva. I'd be surprised if there weren't a lot of SL residents, just like me, who closely follow the "out of world" experience (blogs, flickr streams, news stories etc.) and who've come to highly regard, and highly value, the considerable insight, unapologetic belief in self, substantial literary flair, and obvious experience from both Torley and yourself Prokofy.

To read one attacking the other, whether substantiated or not, is actually a little painful. Maybe not 'heart surgery' painful, but at least 'dental work' painful.

I am immediately reminded of a similar attack on Torley by Lordfly Digeridoo, some 18 months ago, which you accurately described as "mean-sprited". (My comments on Lordfly's rant were under my alt's name 'Simone Something'.)

http://www.lordfly.com/wordpress/?p=100
http://www.lordfly.com/wordpress/?p=102
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2006/12/the_tigger_trap.html

You're well and truly entitled to point out the failings of a Linden Lab employee, but the sentiment here is coming across a little like Lordfly's post from way back.

Perhaps incorrectly, or inappropriately, in my mind Torley is close to a Valentine Michael Smith figure.. let's not complete that comparison and destroy him for his enthusiasm and I think consistently benevolent approach to his work.

I guess I feel that during my 'Second Life' there have been very few constants, the most noticeable of which is Torley. To me, Torley is still the vibrant, inspirational figure who compelled me to step into the SL experience and want to stay there.

Prokofy do you think Torley has in fact changed, or is it our perception of Torley which has perhaps changed? Or something different altogether?

ichabod Antfarm

I want to clarify something about my previous post. I do not believe that Torley Linden dreams of a hob-nailed boot stamping on a human face for eternity! I do believe that there is a whiff of fascism in some of his ideas but I think he is oblivious to it and, as such, I would not call him a fascist; nevertheless, the road to Hell needs paving and rejecting pluralism because it means people might, OMG, disagree with each other would sure fill in a few potholes.

Khamon

"It's more about circling the wagons, ensuring loyalty, gaining followers, gathering the fold, etc" - Prokofy

If this is true, both both Torley and Linden Lab have failed miserably over the past few years.

Thanks for the link Desmond; I'd work for you any day.

Prokofy Neva

Desmond, the people who wish to prevail in a war often pretend it isn't a war and use that as one of their techniques.

And you're failing to realize that Torley's "Orwell" post *is* a response to me criticizing all her crap about Windlight -- and *that* in turn was all about Hamlet -- and he didn't reference either of us by name.

Nickolaz, I'm well aware that Gaussian blur is a painting or photographic term or some kind of art thing. But it's jargonistic, that's my point.

HBA, I totally disagree -- and if you weren't on the receiving end of a lot of Torley's nasty little moves, you'd get it, too. It's just that I can see through this very elaborate and complex act, this artifice, and that's part of why Torley attacks me. Torley is the one who banned me from the forums and town meeting. He took it upon himself to do that to defend the Motherland. There was no actionable speech or action on the forum or the town hall. In fact, the hilarious thing was that Corey Linden himself said "that's a good question" and answered it (?!). But Torley tried to sanitize the discussion and remove any real substantive threat to the tribe, which involved criticizing libsl and the whole opensource nastiness in general in SL.

I don't feel my attacks now on Torley are "mean-spirited". I take all of Torley's watermelony stuff indifferently and I think Lordfly *was* mean-spirited. No, I think this is a necessary defense of something I think is very important: freedom and an open society.

What Torley represents is a terrible encroachment on that with all this horrid propagandistic thinking and even Orwellian terminology. Just because it comes in the form of Windlight-hued dawns and goofy expressions like "wow, that kicks prim buttocks!" doesn't mean it's any less insidious -- it's argubly *more* insidious. The Torleyian monoverse is not one I wish to live in, and I won't stand idly by while it bleeds into every facet of SL.

Simondo, I appreciate your sentiments, but I obviously disagree. Torley *has* in fact changed, and become far more aggressive and ideological. Before, Torley was in charge of being cheerful. Now he's in charge of aggressive propaganda -- not necessarily assigned to be so, but just taking over because he thinks he should. His video tutorials nearly all have some propagandistic spin to them, and the campaign he has waged to discredit anyone who criticizes Windlight and the Lindens toleration of losing lots of customers who don't have the high-end graphic cards for it is nothing short of war on those customers. It's war on common sense and truth, too, because we all can understand perfectly well that only businesses that can easily afford very expensive computers and geeks who make computers out of spare parts are going to adjust and control their experience -- the rest of us are at Best Buy with a printout of the SL spec page and the manager is asking "What's Second Life?"

ichabod, you've absolutely put your finger on it. Torley *rejects pluralism* which is the hallmark of an open society. That original post that signalled to me he was embarking on a whole propagandistic and far more aggressive campaign now was the one about the "protroversy". I didn't realize at first was that he meant the Windlight issues among others -- but his zealous effort there is to bring everybody to a collectivism that I find repulsive and won't stand for as an official operation of SL. We already have too much of that.

Here's the difference between pluralism and collectivism:

When I hear there is a whole body of thought defending Windlight, claiming we can just adjust our graphic settings, that we can just "swap out" our graphic cards, that we can "just" keep buying new computers, etc. etc. I take it as a school of thought. I think it is not telling the whole truth; it is oblivious to the facts at Best Buy, but I grant its existence legitimacy as a school of thought -- indeed, I have no choice, as it is the prevailing one forcing me to have a really crappy SL experience for months on end.

I realize that *for those people* Windlight is *their truth*. They believe it *because it is true for them*. They get SL to work, they love Torley's tutorials about presets, they love Windlight. I see the pictures Zha posts on her blog, and I realize, yes, geeks get their computers to work THAT well, and get really fabulous shots.

Meanwhile, however, I have my truth that really is not just my subjectivity, or my inability to fix graphic cards settings -- good Lord, after 4 years I can do THAT -- but really is a blurry mess, and I'm happy to send you the screenshot of the settings and the blurry view so you "get it".

My truth *is* truth for me -- but I can also take logical steps to defend it -- I can take you to Best Buy; I can take you to Dell; etc. etc. I can show you the experience of countless people, including that person who wrote so eloquently, suspending her business, "Gone with the Windlight."

So here's the difference with Torley's Orwellianism, and why it is so nasty, and must be stopped. What he does is *deny people's experience*. He *denies their truths*. He tells them to *go against what they can see with their physical senses and reason with their logical brains*. He tells them they suffer from "mindjunk". He tells them they must not have gotten the right computer or made the right settings (Pastrami does that too). He refuses to extrapolate from thousands of people doing this, to any kind of industry-wide analysis.

Instead, he stubbornly keeps sitting in his Windlight dawn and telling everyone Bad is Good.

THAT is Orwellian. That is Newspeak, stamping out thoughtcrime, etc. It's just plain wrong. It's one thing to say to geeks, as I do, "You need to accommodate this OTHER viewpoint and OTHER experience and stop being so hegemonic. You need to look at the facts here, that discount what you're saying is true for you, because it isn't true for others, and you need to hear this."

It's quite another, as Torley does, to say "Your experience didn't happen. Your truths are invalid. You really didn't see it that way. You suffer from mindjunk and an attitude problem."

The neurolinguistic reprogrammers and EST people always wound up having to resort to the Big Lie and force in this fashion, like Bolsheviks, because in trying to get people away from chronic unhelpful negativity, they would at times have to deny their really valid experiences which truly were negative for which a negative reaction really was legitimate.

It's that suppression of natural and organic human response, thought, emotion that is so Orwellian in what Torley does. It's that attempt to remake people by some utopian, forced model, where they warble that they are "gladdicted" and never suffer from "controversy" but only carefully, in orchestrated and loyal fashion, take part in "protroversies".

I'm sorry, but I'm doing absolutely the right thing to take the biggest possible whack at this.

Prokofy Neva

If this is true, both both Torley and Linden Lab have failed miserably over the past few years.

Khamon, it may have sneaked up even on you very steathily, so let me point out the circling now accomplished:

o Endorsed Groups
o Showcase
o DPW
o SL Views
o SL Certification
o Architectural Working Group

Think about all this, and see how every facet of second Life is coming to be controlled.

Prokofy Neva

As for the Geek-o-meter, Desmond, yeah, that's scary, but true. Those are all the people who paid $2000 individually for Obama's campaign, which is why he is rolling in dough, and why we all have to worry because they are coming to power.

Khamon

"The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers." - Leia Organa

Note that the circling has resulted in most of us shedding our loyalty and choosing to support outside efforts that accommodate alternatives to Second Hell. Only those of you who remain loyal to the Motherland are fighting this fight. The rest of us are just biding time and commenting from the peanut gallery.

I've sensed the circling well enough to drop out of the Mentor, Instructor, Views, AWG groups and office hours in that order, never worked with the bogus certification effort and recently turned down heading a controlled support group and reactivating the train station as a new resident hub.

All these involvements became mindthink camps that self-respecting tekkiwikis have left in favour of working with background groups of considerate people who earn loyalty rather than demand it. I wonder if M will be able to revamp Linden Lab into a group of people that work to earn our loyalty?

HBA

Torley banned you? Wow... that I didn't know. I'm all for banning griefers, etc. but not dissenting voices - they should never be banned.

As for the Windlight is good, your computers are crap - I have to agree that as the owner of a PC that can go Ultra and laptop that 6 months ago was fine with most settings up and draw at 96 or 128, I would be more than willing to see the back of it in favour of a better level of smoothness and stability. WL makes my pics look lovely, but they looked lovely before WL too. SL need to make a client that can play SL beautifully with no WL/voice/etc. as well as the bleeding edge RCs.

Still can't get over Torley banning you. Blimey.

Prokofy Neva

Yes, Torley is the one who summarily banned me first from the Linden blog, merely by sending me an IM that I was banned -- not through any formal disciplinary warning or banning system. So it's extrajudicial, to start with.

It's very instructive to go back and read this entire thread:
http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/12/06/town-hall-with-cory-linden-dec-20-at-230pm-pst/

Corey is no longer with Second Life. I am. Note the nasty comments and attacks on me in the thread from all sorts of libsl types -- none of them are banned, of course.

Now read this:
http://www.secondlifeinsider.com/2006/12/07/prokofy-neva-banned-from-the-linden-blog/

Note all the horrid, sycophantic fanboy stuff from the likes of Nobody Fugazi -- controlling nits, all of them.

Now picture *the town hall itself*.

read the transcript:
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/01/09/cory-lindens-town-hall-transcript/

Note that I got to ask my question, and Corey answered it (!) but I was *booted from this townhall by Torley*.

Why? because in the back chat, which isn't in this transcript obviously, Torley always furiously tried to control backchat and scrub it, I typed one line about the Lindens' supposed "shortage" of first land, which Corey says is due to "not enough servers" was in fact about the Lindens chosing to take those servers they had, and give them to more expensive private islands, not free first land that was a giveaway of tier.

During that time, there was a PN/4 chan type with a very similar name to mine, like 'Prokofy Balderdash" or something to spoof me, who was ranting and raving up front, typing nonsense, spewing fake comments like mine, etc. That person remained untouched and unexpelled and was allowed to keep ranting.

I can't locate my own blog and chatlog from this event, will keep looking.

Prokofy Neva

Wow, Khamon, I didn't realize you had left all those groups. Good Lord, that's quite a statement. What pushed you over the edge? the train?

Khamon

The silly childishness of Linden employees and their fanpersonz steadily pushed me over the edge, one group at a time, starting with the Instructors in 2004. Later that year, I dropped the Mentor group and at the same time stopped investing personal funds into the project. Any hope of LL producing a functional, useful product were already hopelessly mired in the vision of creating one single contiguous virtual world hail the holy wora'uld that's magically supposed to be everything to everybody, except you, and me, and of course those people over there.

It still leaves me stunned to remember being told that Linden Lab was only concentrating on producing, and using, this fabulous software to support their own myopic vision. Every Linden I talked to confirmed this travesty. There was, and is, no place in the process for those of us who see beyond their scope. Frankly, I'm equally stunned that you're still in the playpen chasing the children around the edges with a rubber hammer.

I believe that You and Torley and Philip are going to be equally shocked when viable software is available for a hundred organizational grids to go live and serve millions of members each with no interest at all in interconnectedness or shared inventories.

Solar Legion

I will say this once and only once and this goes for everyone out there in Second Life as well as Real Life:

Reading through some of these comments I did notice something that frankly made me shake my head. Yes, it was said by Prokofy and only Prokofy would be so blunt as to say something like this.

It does not matter one iota how a person perceives their own words .... What matters is how OTHER PEOPLE perceive your words.

I have personally forgotten this numerous times and ended up eventually having to open my mouth, insert my foot and choke on it.

Forgetting that one, universal truth WILL cause problems. Frankly it is why I take offense to much of what Prokofy and others who think in a similar way write and say.

There is no consideration at all for how another person may take what is said and thus a problem occurs. Being blunt and stating what you VIEW to be a 'fact' or a 'truth' only goes so far and is only taken the way you intend it to be taken by those who think like you do.

People, please do not fall into that same trap. It is very difficult to get out of and repair any damage done, if you WAT to repair that damage.

Prokofy Neva

Ok, Khamon, I'll be shocked then.

The real world also has a hundred organizational grids (well, 192 of them are in the UN General Assembly, and there are more), and they also serve millions of customers separately, and aren't linked to each other necessarily, although most are linked by trade or culture or education or even merely by the UN itself.

I've always looked at SL as a country more than a world, or a protocountry from which other countries or worlds might spawn, and always figured there would be lots of other worlds, and perceive as "worlds" even things like TSO or Raph Koster's thing. And that's ok, and I'm definitely not in a hurry to hook them up or have them all be as One.

I think it's important to work within this One that exists now trying to be hegemonic, and prevent it from becoming so.

But then...I've never been a joiner to start with. I never cooperated with all those things you have or been in them -- I couldn't be, as I had a "rap sheet". I've always just done my own thing, and tried to do it until I'm stopped and they get in the way, I protest it, find workarounds, rally for awhile, get to work on another workaround, etc. I see that as the only way.

I think pouting that they are one-worlders and pouting that they are childish and all the rest is being childish yourself, frankly. I think you have to decide what you want out of it.

If it doesn't serve you, then obviously you can't spend on it. I know you've always been put out that you can't easily use SL as an educational tool under the terms of your own schools, which are not going to take the whole mature grid, etc. necessarily or accept that they can't have offline builds, and so on. But, lots of educational groups have gotten a start there.

The funny thing is that your idea of what their myopic vision is, and my idea, are very different, I suspect. That is, you think they are myopic for not immediately conceiving of SL as either opensourced, or licensed to be customized and placed on separate, unlinked grids -- to have immediately opened with the kind of deal they have only for IBM now.

But I'm not concerned with that myopic vision, and I'm not even sure it's so myopic. I'm more concerned about their tekkie-wiki worldview that privileges skilled creators over other kinds of people; that doesn't see any kind of diversity in society, only a very, very steep pyramid that might as well say Inner Party and Outer Party on the top of it, with the rest of us at the base.

Their social vision to me has always been what is myopic, all this Snowcrashian nonsense with the geeky overlords and the rest of the people caricatures, religious nuts, deranged criminals, ineffective formerly great states, gray Ken and Barbies, etc.

Prokofy Neva

Only Solar Legion could write something so Orwellian, geeky religious, and tribal, it's sickening:

"It does not matter one iota how a person perceives their own words .... What matters is how OTHER PEOPLE perceive your words."

In other words, the individual has no value. Their perceptions don't count. Their thoughts and ideas and what they see as the truth doesn't count. Their expression is inevitably skewed. Under the guise of phony and illegitimate references to ideas like the "Golden Rule", the literalist, controlling New Bolsheviks try to impose the idea that caring about others means that you must completely obliterate yourself; that only the tribal view, the collective counts.

See, when I say these people have to be fought to the death, I am deadly serious, and I am not kidding one bit.

Prokofy Neva

>There is no consideration at all for how another person may take what is said and thus a problem occurs. Being blunt and stating what you VIEW to be a 'fact' or a 'truth' only goes so far and is only taken the way you intend it to be taken by those who think like you do.

What's fake and really downright *evil* about all this is that it isn't consideration of another person *at all*. And Solar Legion of course is a perfect example, with his nasty behaviour on the JIRA, of why this is true.

Being blunt and stating what you feel to be the truth may only "go so far" -- but too bad. You get to do it. You get to keep on doing it. It is constitutionally protected. It is even socially protected. You are not required to adjust, ameliorate, change, and subdue to the Collective.

There's no law that says you have to be considerate. Schools or workplaces or government buildings or even virtual worlds may add on additional rules to make people's behaviour conform to some notion of what is good, but this can differ, be arbitrarily applied, and in any case, cannot undo the reality that *you do get to think what you think and say what you think*. That's the fundamental truth, not the putative "consideration of the group".

Western and Asian societies have very, very different views of this. Asian societies lean much more to the collective, to face-saving with regard to others, with conformity, etc. Westerners d not. There are many religious, cultural, political reasons for this. You can only recognize this East/West divide, but not seek to "heal it" in an artificial, soppy Torlian elimination of "mindjunk" in your "gladdiction". You certainly don't get to paper it over by having the Asian values take on things, the collective, prevail.

Wars have been fought over this, and more will be fought.

Jumpman Lane

Allow me to shed some light on the recent "agressive" and more manly, and petty, vindictive smarm that is Torley Linden nowdays. A while ago we started a lil column we entitled "Lindens Who are These Wackjobs Anyways". The first was Phillip Linden. "Ol Dirt Face Phil: Mustache Like Mud! " We ran it, and nothing happened. Enboldened, we did the second "The Great Watermelon: We know why He Dresses Like a HO!" Then the shitstorm began.

Everyone knew THAT Torley was a man and tarded around SL as a woman; but, few knew WHY. Well, despite the tolerant "awesomness" response that many on the grid held for the outed mangina, no one knew this decision ended in one of those terrible chatlog- argument-recordin incidents that happen in everyone's second life. See Torley Torgeson traipsed behind a Class of 2003 gal by the name of Lady Dawson who was one of the cooler kids (then and now). The tard Torley for w/e reason lurked around and found out where this Lady D shopped; bought all her crap: hair, clothes, skin etc. Then, he poofs in one day back in the olden sl days and decried:" I am Your (lady dawson's) and Torley Torgeson's daughter. " Well to unnastan Lady Dawson's response you have to unnastan lady dawson. She is about the size of Ruth (though infinitely hotter) of german extraction (named a doberman I gave her Rommel without battin and eye) sorta intolerant and very mean to be a pretty little thing. She freaked out! A mini freindlist clearing war ensued endin with Torley Torgeson being banished to "be cool" elsewhere. Heheheheheh. Just lady's luck he got hired on by Linden Labs.

Now when I decided to spread this lil crap story Lady warned meh" Torley is a freak leave him alone." Ever cautious i wandered into his office hours to guage his coolness and likeliness to overlook this lil "attack." I completely misjudged the lil tard by his cherry lil patter. So we ran it. Then the troubles began.

First I get banned from The Man statue and the Library of prims for no reason w/e (land owned by groups with Torley listed as owner. Then My sl wiki page gets (LL's phrasin) VANDALIZED. A vewry cool pick of me gets replaced by a pic of a tard standing on a watermelon slice with Torley in a trench coat snickering. I'm game so I add afew cool pics of me on HIS sl wiki page and a lil tale of how we used to hang out in watermelon patches plottin to take ova the world. RESULT? Forced logged outta sl less than 30 min after the "changes " to Torleys wiki page. and NO email of disciplinary action from LL> so i log on an alt and IM Zara Linden. She responds. I'm like "ok wtf have i done now." she's like "huh?"
i say "im banned" she's "like are ya?" "YEAH" (the g team has no knowledge of anything and agree to check it out) Ish a tickect and we'll look into it. Now this was spooky cause my bannings at the Library of prims were for 7200 minutes. But after the time ran out it RESTARTED with a fresh 7200. So i worried that after 2 weeks my grid ban would restart. The result of the tickect WAS a 14 day ban for abusing support staff one Torley Linden. Fine and dandy. The Gteam was aware of things now, and my return was assured after my fortnight vava!. But there remainded that crap pic on my sl wiki page. So I created a series of Jumpman alts to correct it. and LISTED the names off alla meh alts in my sl wiki page al;ond with a list of my enemies including Torley Linden (for being a watermelon) and THEN alla my alts were "suspended until age verified" and i was ip blocked from sl and permantly blocked on the sl wiki for using alts to VANDALIZE my OWN sl wiki page cause Torley didnt like the references to HIM on MY page. I sent in a fat dictionary of support tickects say im not 12 (though i'd told a few turds that Jumpy Lane was) figuring some one of meh enemies was harrasin meh with underage ars. BUT NO! It was Torley sayin i had abused alts and all of my alts had to be identified rl and linked to my Jumpman Lane account :P.

So much for what i called The Great Watermelon Wars. Ol Jump Lane lost. But there were a few interesting repercussions. First , due to a lil snickerin at the Lab, Torley has hencefroth been refferd to as HE. He's used his watermelon eye pic on his meh space and his blog page (after OUR asthetic choice of it on our article). He's been prickly and "answerin" ALL slights. he's been traipsin around sl in a MAN avatar. And there's a "Who are Lindens" tutorial, as if WE cant tell ya who these wackjobs are!

Prokofy Neva

Hm, well I have no idea about the veracity of any of that story, but that Torley is vindictive and will use the power of office to wrongfully ban people, I am living proof -- and other Lindens don't dare counter him, as he is an icon. He sees himself as defending the soul of Second Life -- but I do too, and they are simply different souls, or a large soul with many aspects, whatever, I will not concede it to Torlian Orwellianism.

Once you use alts to do things, the Lindens can always build a very strong case on you, and you will lose on that grounds alone.

I do want to say that there is no "outing of Torley as a mangina" anyplace in this story. She was always clear about being male in real life, and female in SL. I don't know about 2003, but in 2004 it was a known story, not some "outed" story, and she was always respectfully called "she".

There were interviews he/she gave to Hamlet Linden and others at the time all about this.

And frankly, I'd never call Torley a mangina. I save that vulgar word for people who are vulgar to me, and who fit a profile. Torley isn't being vulgar to me, his attack on me is far more ideological.

The mangina is an aggressive male who dresses as a female, but then harasses females -- deceives them, harms them, attacks transgendered people like me, and generally behaves aggressively and viciously, but using the cover of the female alt to distract and deflect from their nasty chauvinist, abusive and bigotted agenda.

Torley is NOT like that at all. Torley has always been sweet, playful, creative -- although as he himself used to tell you on his blog, he was doing this to recover from some period in his life of depression, or trauma, or negative experiences or whatever -- and that's what I find fake and unreal about it, and that's why I find the form it takes now really unpersuasive and eerie. For me, it is always a cover that is a shiny patina over really troubling issues that I see as not resolved and acknowledged.

Torley for a long time had a very public relationship with Jade Lily, a man in RL with a female avatar. The two were constantly cited by people like Hamlet as an example of the gooey SL wonderfulness where two heterosexual males who in fact weren't gay in real life could have this beautiful relationship.

Far from swooning over this SL version of slashfic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_fiction)
some of us sort of rolled our eyes. There's nothing wrong with being bi or gay, of course, so the fiction of being heterosexual in RL yet gay in SL, or merely Platonically wonderful, always gets a bit of a second look.

Several events then happened to mark Torley's life as traumatic once again, despite all the cheerfulness.

First, she announced that she was taking a break from SL for an indefinite period. She did this on the very day I was banned from the forums, so some people thought she was my alt or I was her alt, it was a funny cosmic coincidence.

I forget, if I ever knew, the reasons she left precisely that day, but it may have had something to do with eventually breaking up with Jade Lily and coming to work for Linden.

First, what happened is that Torley was recruited by the Lindens. She negotiated a deal to have Torley Torgeson's account remade into Torley Linden, the first such "transmogrification" of a resident into a Linden, as before, the resident would leave his resident account, and make it the alt to the official Linden account. This enabled Torley Linden to be listed as creator of all the past creations of Torgeson, i.e. the watermelon stuff, texture boxes, etc.

(The same was to occur in reverse with Cory Linden/Cory Ondrejka; if you look at the Linden object available as a free Linden item in 2003 made by Cory, they now show Ondrejka as their creator.)

But now there was a profound dilemma. Robin Linden has ruled some time ago that Lindens could not have residents as partners. I find it hilarious, given that they *did* have them for ages, some of them very visible, and removing them did absolutely nothing to remove the FIC, which Robin remained very committed to (when she wasn't denying that it existed).

So now here was this troublesome reality: Torley Linden, and in the partner box, Jade Lily. So Robin committed a Justice of the Peace in reverse, and decoupled them. Had this been somehow against Torley's will, and had she protested, it might have been seen in a different light. But from what we know, Torley agreed to the removal as part of a condition to come and accept employment with Linden Lab.

So basically, that became an issue that broke up that long-time happy couple. Then I believe Jade acquired a RL girlfriend who wasn't thrilled with his flying around SL as a girl with another girl, I guess, and that was that. That was the end of Jade as a girl, as far as I know. Jade immersed himself then in Relay for Life and other consulting contracts.

Fast-forward through a lot more watermelony wonderfulness, and Torley marries a woman in RL, and begins to appear more and more as a man on videos, on the blog, etc. This picture of Torley as a RL man on the blog, instead of Torley as an SL female, which was long the case, is a new development.

I personally am not happy seeing a transgendered person "revert" because I feel that for that process to happen, some sort of profound force, or profound duplicity must be happening. That's how I see it.

Jumpman Lane

You have me rollin around on the floor laughin. I love alla this sl history. why I tard around with olbies from time to time. Well fact is we did the lil story on ol Torley as told to us. http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.listAll&friendID=195377761&startID=380574625&StartPostedDate=2008-04-16%2020:34:00&next=1&page=2&Mytoken=1048CCF7-F2D1-4B51-A89702194ED809DA57710902


You can see it excerted here alond with my alt yappin with zara Linden about the so called SL wiki vandalism. I remain the only person in sl without a user page on the wiki though I'm fightin to get that unilateral decision reversed. As for alts I never hid behind them and dont have a user page cause I VANDALIZED my own using alts. Crazy logic. As for WHY Torley chose to be a woman initially. He never denied it. and a tard named january bauhaus is supposed to have notecards of the huge shitstorm that ensued back in the day. I'm gonna try to pry them loose.

THING is who cares. Your're right. Torley never his his true gender. But the reason he chose to transgender seems to have caused some sorta sl "crisis" which left a few people bitter. I suppose that explains the reaction because the few times i met the guy he seemed cool enough to overlook drivel such as we wrote. GUESS not. As for how people choose to play sl i never had a prob. I myself have a female alt nomads Dagger that I did with my Jumpman avatar out of curiosity. Other than that I just dont see the allure of being anything other than the best lookin alt I can bee (why I'm not a furry either). In all things i strive for perfection.

Furthur this little episode in the end WAS NOT funny ass it cost me several bannings, ip blocks and perman banning and necessitated age and id verifying more alts than I care to remember. In the past two and a half months ive been off sl cause of a story. I'm stickin to pretty pics of naked avis from now on. Though my next Lindens Who Are these Wackjobs anyway piece is prob gonna be a sexy spread of Trinity and Zara Linden. Why not.

Prokofy Neva

Well, Jumpman, I'm not getting everything you're trying to say here. If Torley admired another avatar's outfit, and then landed and said, after copying all her stuff, "I'm the daughter of you and Torley Torgeson," well, so what? I mean, it's Second Life. People do that all the time. I don't see anything worth banning a person over that. I mean, it's a free place, people can admire a look and buy all the same clothes, if they don't steal the designs, what can you do? People copy looks all the time. I don't know the lady involved, I wasn't there then, etc.

I still am not quite getting the wiki issue. Are you saying that you believed Torley unilaterally tampered with your own wiki page's picture? And that when you came on with an alt to try to put that picture back, you got banned? And what was the nature of the picture? Sorry, I'm not following all this well.

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