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08/24/2008

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Sean Williams

All of this is moot as Linden Lab is as much a private company as America Online/time Warner, Microsoft, Yahoo, Blizzard and any number of other ISP/Game/VW companies are.

Until a court case can be made to force such places to adhere to the Constitution the choices are rather limited as to what can really be done.

I agree however that these places should not operate in such a manner Prokofy.

As I have said however it is moot. The American Government and Judicial System doesn't care and will not care until some truly extreme situation arises.

Until then all we can do is watch and wait.

If you end up being the one to file such a case and you win ... I'll personally eat my hat and give you a pat on the back if I ever run into you.

You'd deserve it.

Prokofy Neva

Not surprisingly, Sean has flown here within seconds of this post to say the predictable, weenie little forums harrasser sort of comment that every little fanboy always screeches every time this conversation surfaces.

Sorry, but the world is changing, people spend more and more time online, and they will change these rules, as they do not serve them, with litigation, if they have to.

Twitter has already survived a terrible enslaught, for example, by a rival service trying to gin up a harassment case against them through their AR system, trying to get them to suppress speech, in the usual way that little ninnies do that, as you do. And...they didn't cave, and they held strong, and they are providing a higher level, and saying "take it up with your RL lawyer". And we will be seeing lots more of this.

No, Sean, once again, you are ignorant, and just generally deeply clueless about the law of the United States of America. And once again you prove, in your usual inimitable insecure weenie way, that what you really want LL to do is serve as a big bad Enforcer of everything you think is right so that you can restrict other people that you don't have the ability or the balls to restrict yourself. Sorry, but that's not going to happen.

Private companies do not have some absolute capacity to restrict free speech. They may not be burdened to provide it unlimited, but they do not have an unrestricted capacity to suppress people.

This has been shown in lawsuits that in fact do find that some private companies that play the role of providing a public square do have to be tolerant. Such as the Mall of America case, where the Mall, even private, had a resopnsibility not to restrict someone with an anti-Bush t-shirt.

There are cases already; there are internal abuse report cases already being handled differently, and sorry, you will not be meeting me in RL, and getting anything but a spit in your eye.

Sean Williams

I'll be blunt with you Prokofy - I come here to see if you have anything worthwhile to say - and this time you did. Drop the god damn Holier Than Thou attitude for once and accept both a compliment and a hope for what they are hmm?

But, since you've responded in the way you normally do ...

Sorry, Mall of America has nothing to do with the Internet at all A Private Company such as America Online/Time Warner may indeed suppress whatever they deem to be unfit for their space ... and they do.

In the future, kindly refrain from telling people how they are and what they do when all you know of them is an interaction via words on a screen.

I personally hate the way these companies restrict speech. Been hit with a ToS lock down on my old AOL account once before for telling some jackass where he could stuff his sense of superiority concerning women's rights (the asshole was trying to say they should have none).

Incidentally Prokofy ... I don't take any sort of abuse in real life, at all. In real life the rules are simple: Act like a member of a civil society. Anything less marks the uncivil person as being no better than an animal and they will be treated as such.

Prokofy Neva

Move along Sean. You come here to heckle me because you are a worthless, insecure young male with parental issues, that's all. It's boring, and it's obvious.

You have a troubled and unsettled life and great insecurities. You hope to somehow feel that deep sense of worthliness within by trying to belittle me. But it only makes your problem more obvious.

Mall of America has everything to do with it, when/if there is a case, and it is only a matter of time, that will be EXACTLY the case they use by precedent and analogy.

In the future, I'll be kindly telling you to go fuck yourself. I can see everything I need to know about you from the JIRA, your idiotic behaviour in world, and my blog. And, you're a worthless fuck *shrugs*.

If you don't like incivility, don't come to this blog heckling and harassing me and being an asshole, I dish it right back out, and hard.

I'm hardly impressed by your totally fake AOL story that surely has much more to it.

And this will be my last response to you -- you are not worth indulging in your flailing and harassment over your deep sense of insecurity.

Ciaran Laval

There just appears to be something odd going on over this whole communication issue.

I asked someone if you were banned inworld when you banned from the forums and they replied that you were the reason for the link being made, which you seem to confirm but I was horrified about that IRC chat log involving Pathfinder.

I don't know why they seem so hellbent on enforcing these rules, the more rules they have the more problems they incur, the only strict rule should be common sense.

Sean Williams

Now see, THAT is why you can never find anyone to carry on a conversation or proper debate with Prokofy. You assume things about them and act like some sort of animal without any care whatsoever for the truth.

You are either willfully blind and belligerent when it comes to anyone at all that has ever disagreed with you and not backed down or changed their opinions ... or you simply think that you have some God Given right to behave in such a manner.

Hate to break this to you O Wise And All Seeing Internet Psychologist, but you're both off base and out of line.

Get your head out of your ass Prokofy and learn how society actually works, not only will you live longer (anger and stress issues cause heart attacks after all), but you may actually find that the world outside your little Black and White, shallow and appearance driven one is actually far nicer.

You have amused me to no end with each and every single vitriol filled response you have made to me, no matter how kind and polite I have been.

No, you certainly not deserve being treated as a human being at all Prokofy. You do not act or react like one at all, end of story on that one.

You can provide no proof whatsoever of your assessment of me, as you have had NO dealings with me in world aside from ONE Instant Message (which I still have the log for by the way), and perhaps one or two times where we actually exchanged words while in Ross, which incidentally, anyone wishing to help is more than welcome to do so in (you do NOT control it, the Lindens do). The JIRA? Worthless Prokofy. sorry, one's opinions on technology issues and the like, no mater how hotly phrased, are not a doorway to understanding a person.

The only thing you have gotten right in your little rant Prokofy is that that would indeed be your last response to me ... Unless of course you go back on your word at the end of this final comment.

You may log into AOL and come watch me if you'd like, but then you won't do that because you cannot stand to be proven wrong when it concerns your little rants concerning people's personalities and their lives.

You are nothing more than worthless refuse Prokofy, bottom of the rung. To be honest I do not know why I bothered even attempting to interact with you back in 2006. You are abusive, you act like an animal and you quite simply have not a fucking clue when it comes to how real people behave.

I do not know how old you are in real life Prokofy, but I do know how old you act online when responding to me, or anyone else you simply do not like ... and it makes me wonder if you have the time left in your life to actually grow the fuck up.

Though I highly doubt that that will happen in your lifetime ... let alone mine.

Take care, and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out when someone finally tires of your shit and verbal abuse and manages to get you banned.

I'll miss you ... sort of.

Maximilian Proto

Prokofy Neva wrote to Sean Williams:

"your usual inimitable insecure weenie way […] You will not be meeting me in RL, and getting anything but a spit in your eye […] you are a worthless, insecure young male with parental issues […] go fuck yourself […] your idiotic behaviour […] you're a worthless fuck […] asshole"

Prokofy Neva also wrote:

"my permaban is a disgrace and an injustice, and should be reversed."

Ann Otoole

https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=4389
"Knowledge Base
Second Life Info > Abuse and Griefing > Disputes Between Residents >
Someone in Second Life is distributing chat logs within Second Life or on the Second Life forums.

Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums.

Other actions -- posting such logs on web pages, emailing them, or printing them out and posting them on utility poles in the "real world" -- are all actions beyond the scope of the Second Life Terms of Service."

Prokofy Neva

Uh, gosh, Maximilian, you are so "brilliant" with your "findings" of "hyprokisy," but, back to the drawing board.

Your little friend Sean has been an endless nuisance here, and as I don't ban people here on a whim unless they don't use first and last SL names, and I don't arbitrarily dump them just because they are stalking and heckling nuisances unless they incite or cause damage to me in RL or SL, there's only one way to deal with them -- tell them to fuck off. Most people understand that. Justice is expensive. I do this for free. So I value my time, and when people mistreat me and harass and heckle me endlessly here, coming to this blog deliberately to annoy me, I give it right back to them. It makes them go away, in most cases : )

You've never had anything to contribute, really, but matching of people's phrases in order to prove they are "hypocritical" by your oh-so-finely tuned superior sensibilities. That's funny sometimes, and harmless most of the time, but it does point out that you have no ideas of your own, and are basically another witless nit on a forum : )

On my own blog, I write as I please. On the Lindens' forums, there is a TOS and CS more strict, that does not permit the kind of post that I might write on my own blog.

If you go back over and read my writings on the forums, you'll see something rather dramatic. I'm not banned for using profanity or calling someone else a "worthless fuck," even though they repeatedly call me such names -- that's the injustice of the forums. Everyone who was on the forums at that time knows that perfectly.

Go back and read this thread, for example, which was the post for which I was banned, basically called Aimee Weber's name "like a prom queen," and you'll marvel at someone being banned for this, after merely criticizing the smarmy self-serving post that Pathfinder put up touting press and academic coverage of the Linden's mascots which they themselves had fed to the press.

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=49912&highlight=prom+queen

What I wrote back them there years ago, about Linden favouritism, Linden skewing of the economy towards promoting content creation and letting their pets rule the forums, has all been part of the factors that led to this time of 6 economies clashing that I wrote about.

Seriously, read through the Prom Queen Thread and ask yourself how this could lead to a permabanning. Oh, you think, it's followed by many other offenses? Well, where are they? Prior to this offense, I had 7 days for simply exposing the problems of privacy involved in allowing people's emails, that they used to sign up for SL, go to Cristiano's third-party site as part of the picture posting process -- and this infuriated him so much (though it was true) and he and his cronies flew into such rages and paroxysms of malicious glee that I talked about the problem of capturing IP information and privacy, that they got me banned, although they themselves routinely committed far worse offenses, usually of vulgarity and harassment of disparagement.

In fact, proof of the last of offenses can be seen in Pathfinder's infamous IRC channel where he claims I never violate the TOS but somehow skirt it and only goad others into violating it -- a brilliant piece of diabolical FIC logic if there ever was one.

What about the problem of Cubey Terra getting to use the welcome area with an unnammed scripted blimp delivering notecards?! Why didn't everybody get to do that? or at least 10 people that rotated lol.

Seriously, the problem of the FIC that I identified back then in 2005 only institutionalized, and became blatantly visible today in such features as Showcase.

Seriously, look at the underlying problems here, which my critique of that era -- and this! -- points up:

1) the Lindens identify their favourite content creators and promote them in special ways to the media, pitching them to scholars or reporters or corporations so that they get in all the news stories, pick up the contracts to be had, etc.

2) they amplify this special treatment by touting such coverage then in the forums or on their website (at that time, Aimee appeared at least 3 times on the website, she was like their mascot)

3) they deliberately announce (as then VP David Linden announced) that content creation is more important than anything else, and they would put their efforts into this, and other kinds of business would be ignored or discouraged

4) they allow some of the oldbie favourites to advertise in welcome areas, something no one else is ever allowed to do on pain of banning.

5) when anyone criticizes this horrendously unjust state of affairs, where this company claiming "Your World/Your Imagination" constantly interfereces and tweaks and invades the market and sets some above others, they are set upon by all the forums queens like vicious hyenas in the Serengheti.

Seriously, this is the situation to ponder, because I criticized it in its infancy back then, in June 2005, and I criticize it in its full-blown maturity now, in August 2008 -- as the Lindens develop even more capacity to harass people not on their program (banning the reference of a link to a third-party site that somehow competes with their own 'Burning Man' program apparently).

Their inability to stop competing with their own customers they ostensibly set free here; their inability to stop gravitating to favourites who get privileges, knows no bounds, and is even greater now three years later, than it was then, and cries out for public discussion even more now, then it did then, especially as they now have institutionalized Showcase and also essentially played favourites with ad-farm networks, allowing them to hijack the view and devalue land everywhere at the expense of everyone else's business or residential life.

Prokofy Neva

Ciaran, the reason people called that June 2005 decree linking forums bans and world bans as "Prok's Law" is that it was issued 24 hours after I was permabanned from the forums, but NOT permabanned from the world.

And that's why some idiots even thought I was somehow getting FIC treatment (?!) by NOT being permabanned, although of course that would really be over the top, to first punish, then create a law to justify the punishment (and the Lindens aren't above that, and did that to me on another occasion, on the old community roundtable list).

No, the reason they made the link between the permabans inworld and on the forums isn't actually about me, since they had already permabanned me from the forums, when they issued that law.

The reason was they couldn't figure out how to discipline the monsters they'd created, those feted pets that had received all kinds of favours and pets, whom had been the beneficiaries of Jeska's very skewed moderation (gosh, that one time, she issued a demerit to FlipperPAY, wow, radical!).

So they had Ulrika, winner of their famous contest that had one applicant, or Cristiano, long-time anims maker and NDA signer and special friend and host of Sluniverse, and Enabram, creator of the bot avatars they loved to show off, and Siggy Romulus, who made the only swim animations at the time and the free hot tubs everywhere, and they had to find a way to scare THEM.

And the only way they could do that was by invoking that linkage, to let that draconian rule and its implications do the work of moderation that they couldn't bring themselves to do. What was required for them to intervene more, close more, and not even edit, but tell people off publicly to stop, which would have great community justice value in a situation where a few are ruling the roost.

But they couldn't do that because those people were their mascots and favourites.

They finally got rid of them only by closing the forums, and forcing them to go to Second Citizen, where they festered and clawed each other to death for several years, using finding every 3rd thread an excuse to obsess about me, although I didn't participate, before they were finally closed by the owner over an issue involving real life disclosure and harassment.

There you have it.

The new forums would inevitably devolve to the same problems, especially as it has some of the old diseased and psychopathic types, like Malachi Petunia, and good Lord, even Chip Midnight has clung on there waiting for the opportunity to smugly rule again once the new people are put in their place.

Honestly, the forums are a cess pool. Only a full-time dedicated Linden could wrangle them, and only if she is willing not to endlessly close or edit posts, or endlessly write rules, but do another simple thing: come in a thread, and name names, and describe offenses, and explain what is unacceptable speech.

That is the ONLY way to control a forums. "Janey, that was an unfair personal attack you've made on Bobby. Please stop it or I'll have to close the thread. Bobby, the temptation to lash back when treated that way is enormous, I realize, but try to take the higher road, or I will have to close the thread". Personal. Specific. So everybody sees what it is. So the Linden takes responsibility, and the person who is an offender doesn't get to keep gloating in a thread thinking it's everyone else who is the offense, by the usual Linden tactic which is to come in and warn EVERYONE as if they are ALL to blame, or to come in and edit out a post so that no one can see what's up.

Maximilian Proto

Prokofy wrote “You've never had anything to contribute, really, but matching of people's phrases in order to prove they are "hypocritical" by your oh-so-finely tuned superior sensibilities. That's funny sometimes, and harmless most of the time, but it does point out that you have no ideas of your own, and are basically another witless nit on a forum : )”

“When ideas fail, words come in very handy” (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe).

And what do you mean “another” witless nit? I thought I was “the” witness nit... anyways, I realize that I utterly failed according to your standards, but at least I am not a person that is utterly failing according to its own standards :)

I’m not going to the forums, I just don’t have the time. But I’ve seen the way you treat other people here, and from what I’ve seen it was probably justified to prohibit you from posting there. Call it “guilty by association” if you like.

From your 200 line response to my 6 line quote, it is obvious that you feel really hurt by the Linden’s decision. Fair enough. I guess you should try to talk nicely to Katt Linden (or whoever is in charge of the forums) if they couldn’t give you another chance if you promise to behave yourself a bit better.

After all, to disagree one doesn't have to be disagreeable (Barry Morris Goldwater).

Prokofy Neva

Um, I don't ask people who have done something unjust if they can "give me another chance". They will only go and do the same unjust thing again.

They need to rectify the injustice, and cancel all the forum bans and grow up, and run the forums properly.

Er, I haven't been "hurt" by anything the Lindens did, as it just animated my own blog more : )

Qie

One reason that I'm "supine" about the prohibition against chatlogs on third-party sites, and the linkage of Forums and in-world bans, is that these merely acknowledge what LL can do anyway. The ToS gives them broad discretion in terminating service to any resident for any or no reason. That's unsettling and unsightly, but it's the way of the world: similar language is in the Terms of most any unregulated service. (This would be rather a different matter if LL had any hope in hell of "common carrier" status.)

And, as Prok rightly notes here, it would be "retarded" for them to actually act on that, for obvious commercial reasons, no matter how far from sanity drifts Governance and Forums moderation.

That drifting is what has me worried at the moment.

Ace Albion

Actually, Qie, since they settled out of court with that Bragg fella, we don't know that.

Nobody will be volunteering to test it out though, I'm sure.

Conni Fromund

Posting chat logs without the consent of the other party is in many countries (including many states in the USA, by the way) against the law. Heck, for example in the state of New Hampshire it's already against the law to make logfiles for your own usage without the consent of the other parties, it might be considered as felony, and this is not only in many states of the USA, but also other countries world wide!

So that move from the Lindens is just obeying the law. If you've got to say something against it, blame the lawmaker.

Prokofy Neva

That's fine, Conni, let it be. They aren't obeying "the law" that is in *some* states. They are following the "law of MMORPGs."

Chatlogs or tapes from a private phone conversation between two people might turn out to be actionable.

But a public meeting? With an official, a company representative? An open meeting on an open sim open to the public? That's going to be a *lot harder* to take legal action against even in New Hampshire. It was not the intent of the law to make companies themselves unaccountable, or to make consumers helpless, but to protect individual's privacy.

When you can show me a court case involving a MMORPG or a virtual world and the chatlog from a public meeting that is somehow prosecuted, please do. But of course there aren't any cases like that, and it will not be a simple matter to mount them.

Lonely

Katt Linden is the most useless Linden i've ever seen. Seh does not try to communicate at all.

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