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08/01/2008

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Timeless Prototype

Well said. Frankly this faux drahma goes to show just how "wild wild west" Second Life really is (none of the parties concerned are actually *that* concerned, lol).

By comparison, if you bought something off Amazon web site and the transaction was allowed, by real world law they either have to fulfil the order or issue a refund. Anything like this non-delivery, non-refund and taking the law into your own hands would be at least fraud and possibly damaging to a company's reputation.

The main problem here in Second Life is we're dealing with micropayments. It's generally never worth going to court over losing a few USD$.

As far as recourse goes, well, IMHO there's just too much involved here for Lindens to care about becoming judge, jury and executioner when they've got bigger issues to worry about. In RL this is at least two complex court cases. One seeking a refund and the other seeking damages for disruption of business.

The bottom line is that, until things change, this kind of behaviour tarnishes Second Life's ability to gain serious credibility for serious business owners.

It's very likely that OpenSim will be the thing that is a step in the right direction, but it only distributes conflict resolution authorities amongst server owners. Ultimately, it's all micropayments and until that changes, nobody will ever care about fraud in Second Life until the numbers get big.

It really is "your world, your imagination" and in this time in the unfolding history of SL you can get away with it.

Right, who do I pay for this source of entertainment? :)

Timeless Prototype

It goes back to what I was saying in earlier comments about a species self-testing as a means of improvement: http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/02/griefing-is-lik.html#comment-103113986

If you look, you can see this everywhere, in real and virtual, just in varying scales.

So, what should people do in this case to best serve the long term survival of their own species? These are the questions that get lost on many.

Prokofy Neva

I'm glad Timeless Prototype has helped to tarnish his own reputation here by publishing such ridiculous nonsense.

Notice that Timeless is absolutely immoral and has absolutely no comment about the destructive and criminal acts of officer recall so as to discredit and paralyze a business, nothing to say about griefing, prim littering, disturbing tenants, harassing, stalking, etc.

He refuses to validate and condemn the obvious point here: the renting not in good faith, but so as to harass and annoy with fake indignation and fake literalist bullshit all wrapped together.

Immorality is a big problem on the Internet, and it's important to keep exposing and condemning it, so that people understood with whom they should do business, and whom they should avoid.

A scripter who is immoral is not someone you should hire. Someone who fails to grasp this incident for what it is is not someone you should be buying products from.

You don't get to rent properties in real life and use them to harass the landowner in a long-standing griefing posse.

Neither of these "tenants" are paying for their rental in good faith, they are renting so as to grief, and immediately set about putting up a giant Communist flag, etc. etc.

The Lindens don't have to act as judge and jury because landowners can set their own rules on their land up to a point.

Were the Lindens to sit judge and jury on this one, having all the records, I have no doubt that they'd see the problem: two griefers -- long-time assholes who have caused trouble for quite a number of people, one of whom has lost real money people entrusted to them -- coming to deliberately rent a house they really have no good faith in renting, have no intention of living normally and abiding by the rules, but which they are only taking in order to harass.

The Lindens may be hobbled by their own literalism, but they know full well what's going on with this story, and if asked if I have a good business reputation, I'm confident they would reply "yes, indeed". And that's a fact.

I have never scammed anybody or griefed anybody; these two have, and I think most people reading this "get it".

This isn't a book or a blender on amazon.com; it's a community of *people* for whom *social norms* matter, like refraining from harassing, stalking, annoying, putting up ugly signs, etc.

I'm not required to make refunds to chronic griefers that anyone can see are renting not in good faith, but merely to annoy and harass. I especially don't do that when these particular individuals, and this particular group with its constantly changing alts but readily identifiable personas, harass and annoy not only me, but my tenants, forcing them to leave, and causing me lost business.

I definitely don't need to rent to people who publish libelous lies about me in an attempt to tarnish my businses reputation. That's not required lol.

Just because these assholes made e-payments for their "e-homes" doesn't mean they are entitled to an automatic refund when they are griefing and harassing. There is only one way to induce them to stop trying to rent in Ravenglass, since they make alts to go around bans: refuse to refund their griefing rental payments. They're not likely to keep doing it after that. It's certainly a just business practice given the limited capacity to pursue anonymous people online who harass you.

I don't need to "take the law into my own hands" in my rentals: it already is in my own hands. I have no means of collecting a deposit against damages as a RL landlord would do -- in fact, I offer refunds. I have no means of pursuing griefers who rent merely to annoy, prim linter, put up stupid signs and harass me and other tenants. So I'm perfectly within my rights to refuse to issue a refund to these miscreants as a deterrent to them continuing this bad behaviour.

Prokofy Neva

As for all the other tripe about the "species self-testing" (stifles laughter), this is so much transhumanist tripe. There is nothing to say that complex social phenomena created by humans works in some Darwinistic manner the way a leg bone or apposable thumb does. It's hilarious when the Geek Religionists begin to apply their own narrow and cramped field to other fields of human life.

Far from stifling ideas and innovation, law and patents and even religion have helped sustain and protect them. It's not a 0/1 process. People adapt these institutions to their needs over time; they don't respond well by having them disrupted by assholes. That's not evolution, but revolution. Of course, masterminds like Timeless always imagine themselves in charge of these processes, wielding them against other people.

Second Life is indeed a microcosm of the future, or at least some processes for some of the future. But by no means does it 'prove' that somehow these geek mechanisms are "right". If anything, it illustrates to the sane and thoughtful among us just how horrible they are!

Wayne Porter

Prok,


There is a fine between fraud and terrible customer service. While I have never been on the receiving end of fraud by Prok- her customer service is rather dismal.

No comments needed Prok I will show myself the door. Mute, Kick, Ban :)

I love it when you get angry...wait...you are always angry...

best,
-wayne

Wayne Porter

"A veritable renaissance of productivity all around my brand lol!"


Do you know where I can get the tee-shirt Proky? I haven't had time to launch my Proktology line yet. :)

-wayne

Maklin Deckard

Read Shaun's blog comments. Other than your post, I've heard all the other commenters names on various forums, always linked to scams or outright griefing.

I especially liked Tizzer's comment about trying to rent 'several times'... After the first time he/she didn't clue in on not being wanted? After the second time? etc? Either we're talking someone so fucking stupid they have to be reminded to breathe OR intentional harassment. I don't see a third reason for repeated rental attempts.

All these so-called 'adults' remind me of little kids ar recess. One sits by another, the first moves and the second one follows and when reprimanded by adults feigns indignation 'I wasn't doing nuffin!'. Expected behavior in kindergarten, but hardly intelligent behavior in adults.

greatbritt

Yeah, Chad Statosky is a straight up weaselly little bastard. Doesn't seem to exist under that name anymore(For obvious reasons). But having meet the man(boy,... pest,... insect)in person I can honestly say you'd be hard pressed to meet a more unpleasant individual(rude, pretentious and petty). I feel for your situation,. That's what waste of space sacks of useless garbage like Chad do.

Britton 'greatbritt' Mclevis sucks eggs too! If you see him call him 'pumpkin' he hates it.

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