« Meet Me in Second Life? | Main | Why The Kids Aren't Alright »

08/16/2008

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Dale Innis

Prokofy, when I said that OpenSim did in fact have c/m/t support, I was just reporting what Adam F's weblog said, to correct an earlier statement of mine where I said that it didn't yet; I don't claim to have any special knowledge of what's happening in OpenSim.

I looked at the OpenSim Mantis, but I couldn't find a closed bug with the right sort of date on it, so I don't know the details of what happened there. But again, the AWG and OGP are not about OpenSim! So this is really a side issue.

What I do claim to know is that *either* OpenSim will have a permissions system compatible with c/m/t, *or* no non-full-perm SL objects will be going to an OpenSim-based grid.

(Actually it sounds like the 3rd Rock folks have found a fix that gets them c/m/t permissions in OpenSim that are good enough for a commercial offering. That's pretty neat, I didn't realize the code was that far along. So even if someone on the main OpenSim trunk decides not to fix instances of c/m/t not being SL compatible, there could be another plugin or a source fork that was. But again that's really a side-issue; interop does not equal OpenSim. The stuff I've said about interop not being a secret conspiracy to steal people's assets would be just as true even if OpenSim never got a permissions system at all.)

Dale Innis

P.S. It looks like butch went to some trouble to keep his email address from appearing in plaintext in the source code of his web page, whereas yours has it right there. You might want to update this entry to not do that?

Prokofy Neva

Dale, you are such a *dickwad*. He is protecting his address *from spambots*. By having it all smushed together here as it appears, all in one line, it can't be picked out as an email, duh, by a spammer. And frankly, this unearthly fear of spam is silly, put in some filters, delete, and don't be silly. It's not as if he is somehow protecting his name or something, so I will not remove it, that's retarded.

AWG is of course all about OpenSim, they've spent a good deal of their time trying to bridge to it. It's completely disingenuous to say otherwise.

And I love this sort of fake propaganda, based on nothing: "What I do claim to know is that *either* OpenSim will have a permissions system compatible with c/m/t, *or* no non-full-perm SL objects will be going to an OpenSim-based grid."

We have absolutely nothing to back that up. The Lindens saying vaguely on a blog "Oh, we'll never let anyone install anything that will violate copyright" is just so much PR fluff not backed up by *engineering*.

With a bug like this, and with that cocky indifference from Mantis etc about this bug they don't want to say is a bug, I can see that people's efforts to make it work are in fact treated with scorn, and that lets us know how much that grid can be "trusted".

This isn't a side issue. It's the main point.

Gareth Nelson

"AWG is of course all about OpenSim, they've spent a good deal of their time trying to bridge to it. It's completely disingenuous to say otherwise."

The reason all the current interop stuff is being developed in opensim is because currently opensim is the most feature-advanced SL-compatible server outside of LL. I do know however from personal experience that it is not all about opensim as I am NOT using Zha's patches to implement OGP since I don't run the standard opensim.

"With a bug like this, and with that cocky indifference from Mantis etc about this bug they don't want to say is a bug, I can see that people's efforts to make it work are in fact treated with scorn, and that lets us know how much that grid can be "trusted"."

Which grid can't be trusted here? I'd have thought you'd appreciate 3rd rock grid's work on fixing the bug regardless of what the opensim team say.

You still seem to be confusing opensim (the software) with installations of opensim/OGS (the grids). Until they made this bug fix, 3rd rock grid were not a "spinoff", as up until that point they were running the standard opensim software.

Tery Ford

Good point on the about us page, our site is in fact a work in progress.
I have nothing to hide:
Terry Ford (aka: Butch Arnold of 3RG)
5820 Sugar Grove Rd.
Blue Rock, Ohio 43720
Phone: 740-674-4661 (personal phone.. please be nice)
There is no shady dealings in my past.. and I do appreciate your comments. I'll be sure to update our website to reflect this info.

Tery Ford

Our website has been updated.
Thank-you for your critique.

Gareth Nelson

Terry - though you may have nothing to hide, it's still a bad idea to list your personal address and personal phone number. It'd be better to have an office outside of your home rather than giving your home address out to everyone. Just a piece of friendly advice. Also, check your emails :)

Gigs Taggart

You are right Prokofy. Dale is out of line saying "it's c/m/t or nothing".

What is much more likely is that what is allowed will be determined by creators. If a creator doesn't want their stuff to move to other grids, they can mention that in the license. Just like every other medium where copyrighted stuff is distributed.

Tery Ford

Hi Gareth,
I appreciate your concern and your tip, I however, really have never done anything to anyone or do I ever intend to do anything which would require me to hide from them.
The information I've provided here is available to anyone via the local phone book... my number is listed.
I sent a reply to your email Gareth.

Ciaran Laval

I'm not sure that creators have the tools or the law on their side on this issue, it's not as straight forward as putting a notecard in the box.

Gareth Nelson

Ciaran - in copyright law, by default you have no permission to copy someone else's creative work and redistribute it. You can in some cases copy small portions for reasons of criticism or parody (fair use), or you can modify a copy you hold privately in some cases (this is less true these days sadly) but otherwise you need a license from the copyright holder.

And a license is just what that notecard would be, the author's specific words override the permissions they set in terms of what you may do with the item.

Disclaimer: i'm not a lawyer, just some guy who knows the basics of copyright law.

Dale Innis

Gareth: 'Dale is out of line saying "it's c/m/t or nothing".' Given that I didn't say that, I can't have been out of line saying it. :)

Cocoanut Koala

"Mention it in the license"?

What's wrong with a checkbox saying whether your goods can go or can not go to another grid?

If the current permissions system in SL suddenly disappeared, and we were just supposed to "mention" our desires in a license, I would no longer be creating content in SL.

coco

Prokofy Neva

Dale is being, er, disingenuous again, because essentially, they say "nothing". Not even "c/m/t or nothing" but...nothing. And that's what this episode illustrates. Zha has argued copiously against c/m/t, and I've rebutted her line by line and then later, paragraph by paragraph, but they still essentially continue to lie through their teeth: we don't do it because we don't feel like it because it's not our world view for a social system, and we'll call this "an insurmountable engineering problem".

I fail to see, if you are taking people's money, why you can't be expected to put up an address and phone number. If you work out of your home, that's fine, but you'll have to make that phone number available then. I find it reprehensible that people would consider that you get to keep being anonymous and irresponsible, while taking people's money, just because of some hypothetical concern about spam or griefing. Just doesn't fly.

Gareth Nelson

Dale - you mixed me up with Gigs

Prok - Tery gave his address and phone number here, and then created a new "about us" page. I'm also wondering which grid you were saying can't be trusted, since Tery did implement a fix (which he was kind enough to share, so look forward to seeing it on litesim soon too). For the record by the way, I can be contacted by post with letters addressed to Litesim Ltd's office, but I will not give my home address out as i've had some very nasty stalkers in the past.

It's best to not put your info out there in the first place, since once out there it's difficult to remove and anyone could be unlucky enough to have random crazy person X set their sights on you.

Ciaran Laval

Gareth if I buy an item in Second Life, there's generally no Eula telling me I can't transport it to another grid, I tick no boxes, I see no license, that's the issue. There are fair use issues at stake here as well as copyright issues.

As a consumer I wouldn't see myself as copying and redistributing the item, I'd see it as me taking the item I purchased to another location. Everytime I teleport to a new region I take items with me.

I'm no lawyer either but I know that the reason I have to agree to terms of service and tick check boxes is because they are generally toothless without that additional step, copyright laws and Eula's often contradict each other.

Ciaran Laval

Ah Prok we'll make a European out of you yet, by law you need to provide an address to customers when selling online and it has to be a physical address.

Yes my tongue is in my cheek about making you a European :P

Gareth Nelson

"Gareth if I buy an item in Second Life, there's generally no Eula telling me I can't transport it to another grid, I tick no boxes, I see no license, that's the issue. There are fair use issues at stake here as well as copyright issues."

Personally, i'd think it is fair use to export an object that has copy+transfer permissions for use on another grid, but of course it's not up to you or me to decide but up to the legal system.

Gareth Nelson

"I'm no lawyer either but I know that the reason I have to agree to terms of service and tick check boxes is because they are generally toothless without that additional step, copyright laws and Eula's often contradict each other."

TOS agreements are contracts, not copyright licenses. EULAs are weird combinations of a copyright license and a contract, and this is where most of the problems lie. A simple copyright license which doesn't try to apply restrictions beyond what is granted by copyright law removes much of this complexity.

Putting it simply, you can say "copyright law forbids you from copying my stuff without my permission, you have my permission with the following conditions" and you have granted a copyright license.

You can also say "Copyright law says you can't copy my stuff without my permission, so here's the permission and conditions. Oh, and even after you have my permission to copy this software onto your computer, you must also agree not to do X, Y and Z, even if you would otherwise legally be entitled to. If you don't agree, then that copyright license is withdrawn." and you've setup a contract which conditionally gives a license. Again, I may be horribly wrong here as i'm not a lawyer but that's my general understanding of the subject.

Prokofy Neva

I'm so glad other people are starting to sit up and take notice of these issues now, so I don't have to be a Johnny-One-Note on this topic:

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=276769

Random Avatar

An FYI

Butch seems to have posted the same question on Adam Zaius's blog. Adam had a different answer for Butch than the one he received in his email

http://www.adamfrisby.com/blog/2008/07/copy-protection-nuances/#comment-158

"As far as I can tell there’s two issues at hand:
- 1. The permissions manager does not differentiate between say, being able to move/return/delete/reposition/mod objects, and being able to swipe them back to inventory - that definetely needs some fine tuning. (It also sounds like the inventory take code is not copying inworld permission bits properly, that’s definetely a bug.)

- 2. Region owners/operators are equivilent to your standard webhost, when you upload content onto a webserver (say like the one I put this site on), then the people with access to that server are going to be able to tweak it.

Estate/region owners have had powers over their regions for the same reason that webhosts do, but in some situations there will be cases where that’s not desired functionality - in that case, being able to disable the overrides via an option is probably a good feature to have.

I’ll go have a chat about it with the other devs and see if we can get those overrides set to a config option. (Although getting more detailed configurable ACL’s for the permissions manager is on the agenda at the moment, I think Melanie herself is working on that.)"


Might be good for Butch to update his thread stating this so theres no more confusion like Prokofy had

Tery Ford

Consider it done! :)

Gareth Nelson

"Estate/region owners have had powers over their regions for the same reason that webhosts do, but in some situations there will be cases where that’s not desired functionality - in that case, being able to disable the overrides via an option is probably a good feature to have."

Of course, they need not have any rights beyond moving and deleting or returning. If you're going to implement perms, implement them in a sane manner.

Prokofy Neva

Random, you must use a first and last recognizable SL name or RL name to post here. Those are my rules.

I don't have any "confusion" about this, I have been following this for a long time, and there's no question that Adam and other developers simply have no intention of attempting to mechanically engineer permissions implementations, or using c/m/t in any form, full stop. They duck and cover from this obvious copyleftist position by saying they will allow others to put it in if they wish, but that's proved to be a sham.

Tery Ford

Looks as though they may be open to correcting this!
http://cia.vc/stats/project/opensim/.message/3b026f

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name and email address are required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)