Railroaded

This is a story I can only tell one side of, because as is often the case in our closed society of Second Life run by a single executive authority, the other side is in a black box. That is, from the transcripts below, apparently Michael Linden is going to ask his boss about the right essentially to keep resident content from being destroyed (would that boss be Cyn Linden or Jack Linden, I'm not even sure who really is "in charge" of something like the Department of Public Works, but I think it must be Jack).

Perhaps some of you recall the meeting we had a few months ago at the Society for Virtual Architecture discussing the railroads of SL. The old Linden line on the atoll continent stopped working due to physics issues or something. Various residents continue to run their own rail stock on that line, or make their own railroads. Crucial to this operation is an invisible guide rail, that makes it possible to use the rail line not just as a rut, but as something with an actual feel of a railroad -- where it rocks back and forth, hugs corners, announces stops, etc. I have a great Hellbound Train made by Jer, one of the rail enthusiasts, which I occasionally drive around Tuliptree or Obscure, setting forests on fire when I crash. It even has a gun turret which I haven't figured out how to operate yet.

Naturally, getting the railroad working again now that physics are said to be improved with Havoc 4 would be a really fun thing in SL, where the track is laid in the atoll continent across several dozen sims. Nigel Linden is no more; he used to take are of this.

So it turns out that the DPW "moles" want to strip out this guide rail, that would prevent resident-made trains from operating, and put in something else, or just retool the old Linden line. Of course, fear of "crashes" is a bit silly in a virtual world; if there were crashes, what of it? No harm done. The train re-rezzes. Residents could also find out the schedule and plan accordingly. It doesn't seem as if this guide rail causes lag or prim overload anywhere -- but that's how it is told to me.

What's frustrating about a thing like this is that all the efforts of all the hundreds of railroad enthusiasts is now in danger of being destroyed, even though this is supposed to be "Your World/Your Imagination". The residents burgeoned with their own contests, displays, clubs, machines, etc. while the LLRR lay fallow, and now it's as if they are being punished for it. I really LOATHE the idea that these moles are getting to decide what content should go in everywhere, in views that we have to look at, and can't participate in the decision-making about. Hence the publication of these memos, which were sent out to about 300 people already.

The issue here isn't just one guy trying to save his vehicles, from what I can tell, or a class of vehicles. It's saving *what is here now* against the "Bright Future" the Lindens are sketching out that they *might* put in tomorrow, which is more complex. And that's what rankles.

FROM JER STRAAF

I sent this to Michael Linden and to all of you. If you want the solid center rail to stay in SL, be vocal now. Also, make sure the group you belong to explicitly states that they are 100% FOR KEEPING IT. You may be FOR it but a group that counts you as a member may be saying to the Lindens that "all 50 of us" (or whatever) want it REMOVED. If you want to keep the solid center rail, ask your organizers if they are in fact 100% FOR KEEPING IT; leave the group if they cannot state that in certain terms. See you out on the rails! JS

TO: Michael Linden
CC: All members of several SL rail groups
FROM: Jer Straaf
DATE: September 19, 2008
RE: SLRR's "collision-guidance" center rail being removed?

Dear Michael,

Once again I have been told that you have a plan to remove the center "collision-guidance" rail from the SLRR track system. I believe that you are planning to make these changes based on insufficient, outdated and unintentionally biased information. Many of us do not understand why this decision-making process has been so secretive. Why no requests for public comment? All we have to go on are rumors; no open forum, no discussions and no blog entries.

Respectfully, please consider the following:

1) You would be eliminating an entire class of vehicles from SLRR and the joy/excitement of physical travel by collision-guidance will be lost forever. There are no "track sniffer" or "bot" vehicles (even if physical) that provide anything close to realistic physical motion. Collision-guided trains rock and roll and bang down the tracks with an amazingly realistic, smooth physical sensation. Contrary to what you may have been told, they STAY on the SLRR tracks too!

2) Collision guided SLRR vehicles are simple to make and operate, even for newer SL citizens. The proposed SLRR "track sniffer" vehicles are unfinished, complex and problematic. Why create an unnecessary barrier to entry for those desiring to use the SLRR track system? A newbie on a hobo train is a future train developer in SL.

3) All of the collision guidance system's "problems" have been solved by SL citizens, without exception. There are solid/phantom systems for vehicle/pedestrian crossings, solid/phantom track switching systems, and everyone has accomodated Havok4 in their vehicles. I believe that you are ignoring this and listening to outdated or biased information. Have you seen these vehicles and devices? I would be happy to send you some to examine.

4) Any vehicle that intends to ply the SLRR tracks can certainly accomodate a 0.5 meter solid center rail in their carriage design, as they have all along. Therefore ALL TYPES OF SLRR VEHICLES CAN EASILY COEXIST if Linden Labs wants them to. You can easily say YES to everyone on this issue.

5) On average, SLRR's collision-guidance rails take up only about 25 prims per region, a pittance as a percentage of a region's total prims.

6) The advanced builder/scripters talk about automated, mass transit as a goal for SLRR, yet THEY HAVE NOT PRODUCED A VIABLE DESIGN! Many of us are incredulous that you would even consider removing our ability to use simple personal trains when the primary reason for that removal DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! Again, the advanced scripter/builders have not solved their most important design problems.

7) People actually want MORE railroads, and to have the collision-guidance rail added to a couple of existing lines, which for some reason, lack it. Cars hit everything in sight and ALL aircraft flights end up in ban lines. SLRR is the last refuge for those of us who love physical travel in SL.

8) Please do not confuse SLRR (Atoll) tracks with the GSLR (Southern Continent) tracks. Since Havok4, collision-guided trains can only barely run on the short-line GSLR because of its tight curves. The SLRR tracks on the Atoll have no such curves, are all fine and all run great! :-)))

To summarize, it seems that you may be planning to throw the baby out with the bath water. Have you personally ever ridden a collision-guided, physical train on SLRR? I know people who have gone from Tulip to Bhaga AND BACK without incident (several trains can "warp" across SLRR's gaps.) That's 120 region crossings and hours of fun! No "bot train" or "track sniffer" will ever be as agile, robust and fun as an engineer-driven, collision-guided personal locomotive. If people want to build automated, mass-transit trains in a world where we can fly and teleport, fine, but please don't let them ruin SLRR for the rest of us by removing the collision-guidance center rails.

In conclusion, I have been told that you are "swamped." I urge you to consider a moritorium on this important change until you have time to personally examine the issue and seek public comment. It is obvious to many "train people" that the advanced builder/scripters want to eliminate the personal use of SLRR and implement their complex, utopian "vision" whether they have complete solutions or not. Without public comment, you may be getting unintentionally biased information from your advisors.

Thank you,

Jer Straaf

A few days ago I copied you all on a memo I sent to Michael Linden regarding the impending removal of the SLRR solid "collision-guidance" center rail. I met with him today during his "office hours." This was one of the most unusual meetings I have ever attended, and definately falls into the category of "Why am I talking to YOU???" Here is an excerpt from the chat log. Michael Linden CLEARLY does not understand the current SLRR, and there is no indication that he knows/cares where it is going. ("Eh ... sure.") His underlings will dictate the direction and his boss will approve it. Sooooo, why was I talking to him??? Good luck everybody, see you all on PRIVATE rail builds when the SLRR tracks have been ruined... JS

[15:42] You: Michael, have you read the memo I sent to you?
[15:42] Michael Linden: I have. I'm asking the railway scripters for comments
[15:42] You: I would be really interested if it has changed your thinking about any of that...
[15:42] Michael Linden: Can't comment yet.
[15:42] You: kk, may I show you the devices I referred to?
[15:43] Michael Linden: Eh ... sure.
[15:43] You: crossings and switches?
[15:43] You: here, 1 sec...
[15:43] Michael Linden accepted your inventory offer.
[15:43] Michael Linden accepted your inventory offer.
[15:44] Michael Linden: I've seen crossings and switches, done as rez-one-or-the-other things, or wait-for-the-train stuff.
[15:44] You: those two items alone solve a lot of "problems"
[15:44] Holocluck Henly: reading
[15:44] You: please dont dismiss these until you have tried them, that would be unfair, yes?
[15:44] Michael Linden: Well, we have various things to consider, but sure.
[15:45] You: these are simple devices, not complex, unworkable ones
[15:45] Holocluck Henly: I've seen tracks switch off that's true LOL
[15:45] You: like the one I am wearing...
[15:45] Holocluck Henly: we dont have water towers come to think of it
[15:45] Michael Linden: Water towers will be needed once we have steam locomotives.
[15:45] Michael Linden accepted your inventory offer.
[15:45] Holocluck Henly: wooo
[15:45] Arawn Spitteler: I'd go with a simple collision_start(integer N){ if(lengthwise(llDetectedVel(--N))) llVolumeDetect(FALSE); else llVoumeDetect(TRUE);}
[15:45] Holocluck Henly: you have big plans
[15:46] You: i plan to make the "buddy" completely free to all to build into their trains, easier solution than a complex signaling system
[15:46] Michael Linden: Multi-car trains are the big Stretch Goal.
[15:46] You: i push rail cars over boundaries too
[15:46] You: works pretty well, like 90%
[15:46] Michael Linden: Alas, I'm not sure 90% is good enough. Trains cross many regions.
[15:47] You: it's good enough to have fun with, Michael, those big plans some people have will never achieve 100% either
[15:47] Michael Linden: Sure.
[15:47] You: you already know that
[15:48] You: so my whole point is dont take away something very very fun without a solution
[15:48] You: i think actually that I've made my point...
[15:48] Michael Linden: Anyway, the moles and my boss are looking over your notecard. Can't comment much without boss's OK.
[15:49] Michael Linden: Hello Yaz.
[15:49] You: it's really whether or not YOU support personal trains in SL
[15:49] Holocluck Henly: hello yaz
[15:49] You: we're all in your hands there
[15:49] Yaz McMahon: hello
[15:49] Michael Linden: I don't think we want to ban "private" trains from the SLRR.
[15:49] Magic Button 2.01 Wearable: Michael Linden Click GOTO PAGE and the Magic Button will appear at the top. Click it for 1 FREE L$ every day!
[15:49] Holocluck Henly: spam alert
[15:50] Michael Linden: Hmm, Yaz is walking spam.
[15:50] Yaz McMahon: no issue ..i remove it
[15:50] Holocluck Henly: problem solved
[15:50] Arawn Spitteler: Spiced Pork Army Meat?
[15:50] Holocluck Henly: very mushy and barely resembling its original state? hm
[15:51] Holocluck Henly: thats for another discussion lol
[15:51] Michael Linden: Also other railways (probably on seperate continents) might use wildly different systems.
[15:51] Michael Linden: Monorails, subways, suspended ski-gondola things.
[15:51] Holocluck Henly: well you have roadbeds in nautilus
[15:51] You: well, not sure how to respond to any of that...
[15:51] Holocluck Henly: can they be filled with water and have ferries?
[15:52] NonSmokerGirl Tulip is Online
[15:52] Michael Linden: Giant bugs creeping along scent trails!
[15:52] You: well, that's really my point! they can all co-exist for different uses
[15:52] Arawn Spitteler: Cneter Rail is pretty good, and used on other continents, but the names change to foil sniffers
[15:52] Holocluck Henly: eeep
[15:52] Holocluck Henly: used? other than the trolley which ones move?
[15:52] You: I think the SL and SLRR I see is different from the one your committee sees...
[15:53] You: i see fun and action and excitement
[15:53] You: every day
[15:53] Holocluck Henly: and collisions?
[15:53] Holocluck Henly: :)
[15:53] You: not sure what they see
[15:53] Michael Linden: Keep in mind that I'm not a scripter myself.
[15:54] Holocluck Henly: a real rail system in the usa shared between passenger and freight - carefully timed for everyone to use. how would you work around this with private trains added to the tracks?
[15:54] Michael Linden: Any questions, concerns, ideas, Yaz?
[15:54] Michael Linden: Uh ... they would crash.
[15:54] You: you wouldnt, and by the way Holo, who are you?
[15:54] Yaz McMahon: not really ..i am new to this
[15:54] Holocluck Henly: i dont give out my real name
[15:55] Holocluck Henly: i was holodoc in the blaxxun worlds. if that means anything
[15:55] You: well i came to speak with Michael, if you are done that is...
[15:55] Michael Linden: Oh, it's an open office hour, everyone can speak.
[15:55] Michael Linden: Hello Mick!
[15:55] Arawn Spitteler: Did Yaz just get a new computer?
[15:55] Holocluck Henly: heya mick
[15:55] Michael Linden: Oh, have you guys visited the new Castle and Space Base?
[15:56] Yaz McMahon: oo
[15:56] Holocluck Henly: where? :) what regions?
[15:56] Mick Huet: hello michael.
[15:56] Michael Linden: Regions: Castle Valeria, and Mos Ainsley
[15:56] You: ok, well, you have my info Michael, good luck to you. IM me if I can answer any questions concerning your citizens' use of the solid center rail, thanks...
[15:56] Arawn Spitteler's busy trying to script a toronado, for Burning Life
[15:56] Michael Linden: Jack is gonna blog about them soon.
[15:56] Holocluck Henly: lol figures i think i know which is the space base
[15:56] You: hi Mick
[15:56] Michael Linden: Tornados, the un-tapped transport mode.
[15:56] You: this is silly, bye all!

Comments

[Khamon Fate]

Those tracks are built on Linden lab and they can do whatever they want to with it damnit!

Seriously though, GSLR worked very hard for several years to assemble private track land through eight sims to realize the dream of running trains across the Mainland.

If there are enough SLRR enthusiasts, perhaps they can offer to group tier the track land for the Governor. Is privatization preferable to being lorded over by the benevolent lab?

[Prokofy Neva]

Yes, it may come to that. But it's also possible to have more democratic rule even under these conditions -- it seems like nothing is lost by keeping this guide rail.

[Desmond Shang]

This whole process is just... meh, painful to watch. Region crossing, multicar trains as a 'stretch goal' - but it's been done! Been running for ages in Caledon. Barney Boomslang's design - free and available to anyone. Get a sharp noob who wants a job and can read instructions, the whole line will be set up without too much trouble.

Not physical, but if someone really cared that deeply they can make a physical train work too, after a fashion.

I hope they work it all out. I have no opinion one way or the other on the 'third rail' - but I do know that once you strip something like that out, it's not going back in without spending a BUNCH of money and time. Might be worth choosing carefully.

[Gigs]

I used to own 100% of the buyable land in Epirrhoe. It has a full swath of railroad through it.

The scripts in the guide rail prims are not laggy. At all. Full stop.

I know because I controlled the entire sim and could easily see the sim statistics.

If anyone is claiming these guide rail prims cause lag, they are wrong.

[Yumi Murakami]

I have never tried to make one of these - why can't the two "normal" rails be used for collision guidance?

[Khamon]

"Region crossing, multicar trains as a 'stretch goal' - but it's been done! Been running for ages in Caledon. Barney Boomslang's design - free and available to anyone." - Desmond

How demanding are these scripts when the train is passing through a sim?

"I know because I controlled the entire sim and could easily see the sim statistics." - Gigs

I wish we could see the estate stats on the Mainland. It's one thing that totally hoses my desire to stay with it.

The contention is that oh you could see which scripts I was running and invade my privacy.

whatever

[Desmond Shang]

Well you aren't going to get something for nothing scriptwise or physicswise, but it may impress people how ridiculously efficient a train can be. I see lawn ornaments with bigger regional impact, with regularity. Note that the Caledon National Rail goes through openspace regions without problems, and has been doing so for ages.

I don't recall the exact stats for the train - it wasn't a mere feather-tickle but it wasn't lagtastically region-crushing either.

If anyone has a bee in their bonnet about it they can pester me when I'm inworld. I'll grant them estate access for a few minutes so they can check it out for themselves. The trains move around (obviously) so you've got to be kinda quick.

* * * * *

For the rail buffs: The Caledon II line is temporarily down, the Primverness and Loch Avie railspurs are down with it but the main lines from Tamrannoch, Kittiwick, the Cay, Cape Wrath and Caledon On Sea are quite active. Note that the Caledon On Sea line is an older rail engine, not as spiffy as Barney's.

The spectacular SouthEnd On Sea / Caledon Oxbridge line with the undersea tunnel and the multi-region wrought iron Victorian bridge isn't online yet - those tracks were just completed last week, so give us some time. Though if you are wandering around in the rail tunnel and hear a train coming, don't say I didn't warn you...

Barney's spectacular, free, open source creative commons licenced rail system with explanations is available at the Guvnah's Mansion - southeast corner of Victoria City. Yeah, I know that creative commons, free, and all that may find its detractors here. But I personally think there is room for it. Sure, a competing micronation can come by, pick one right up and start running a train tomorrow. They are welcome and invited to do so.

If I think about a world with trains, and a world without - this is one case where everyone benefits. We are all better off. It's not communism, it's philanthopy and good works for the benefit of everyone.

Note that it took a healthy dose of capitalism (land barony) and a healthy dose of philanthropic good works to accomplish the Caledon Trolley (Ordinal Malaprop's) and the train. These systems actually run, across dozens of regions. They work. They are running right now. Which in itself is a powerful vindication far beyond 'woulda, coulda, shoulda' - and a lot of talk.

[Prokofy Neva]

Yes, Desmond, thanks for pointing out that all this opensource stuff can't work without capitalism subsidizing it -- you're tiering the land, and running a business rerenting the land to others at a profit.

I don't think lag or prims are the real issue with this "guide rail". I think it's simply more about either a) control or b) spite. That's how it usually works in our world. The moles need to be privileged, and having a feature that enables other residents -- not themselves, in the privileged class -- be able to build and run something with Linden content must exasperate them. They want to be large and in charge, and here's a case where the Lindens' co-optation of FIC to run its battles for it against residents is very explicit.

There's a healthy dose of dog-in-the-mangerism here, too. The Lindens couldn't be bothered with this railroad. Nigel bothered because he was a long-time former early resident who then left Lindenhood to go back to being a resident with a large business. After he left, few people bothered. Some residents picked up the slack literally for several years here. Now all of a sudden the Lindens, who have figured out that they should zone the mainland that in fact WE have already been zoning without them (thank you very much!) for all this time have woken up to the fact that they can "run something". So they want their pets, and not our pets, so to speak, to run it.

[Ordinal Malaprop]

There are certainly all sorts of ways in which public transport can be run in SL; I dare say I count as having _some small experience_ in that context. The majority do not depend on rails.

My immediate reaction to the idea of removing rails, though, is "why? they work! leave them alone!" I have no experience in using them, I have always used other systems, but by god if people have managed to take advantage of and build upon an aborted Linden project then the only proper thing is to leave them to it.

All that will happen if they are removed, in any case, is either (a) they will not be replaced with anything at all or (b) they will be replaced with a system which is not fully utilised and the details of which are not publicly accessible, so we will all be back at square one.

[Prokofy Neva]

Is the issue that the DPW wants to make a Linden proprietary system? Because the system Jer has is something he says is easy to learn for new people and I think it's in open scripts.

[Cocoanut Koala]

Square one, yes.

My analysis of all these things is that it usually comes down to one thing: A Linden wants to do something. Or their friends want to do something, or someone convinces them, that something is a good idea and so then they want to do it, and that's that; all other discussion is brushed off.

So then they do it; the end.

coco

Oh - and change is always good, regardless of what it is. If it is something different, then it is always better, and we must not stand in the way of change.

(Until the next different thing comes along, and then the old thing suddenly did not work and wasn't a good idea after all; witness the explanation of the different incarnations of the LL Blog.)

[Gigs]

Khamon,

I owned the whole sim. I knew how much resources the railroad scripts were taking because I could remove every other script from the sim and look at the overall stats.

[Barney Boomslang]

@khamon: re the script usage of the caledon national railway, I can't say what the train in Caledon takes up directly, because I don't have estate rights there, but I use scripts based on the train scripts in my birds and did check script resource usage of those quite a bit. They usually stay in the 0.01-0.03 range while cruising, with dips up into 0.08 or 0.09 range from time to time (for example they need to calculate rotations when they turn during their flight). The birds do a little bit more (like flapping their wings, which is done with prim shape transitions), which the train doesn't - the train just receives a notecard, runs through the notecard lines and does what it is told from those lines, so has a rather uniform script resource usage pattern.

Due to being non-physical, there is no physics lag whatsoever (unless it collides with physical objects, of course - I discovered that running over one of those pesky turkeys in Caledon Tanglewood could do even a little dent on the sim FPS back at that time, but that was before H4. Haven't seen that anymore, but well, I guess we killed all the turkeys in Tanglewood anyway - all run over by the train ;) ).

Of course, the downside of non-physical movements is that they are not as smooth as physical movements. On the other hand, it doesn't have the "H4 wiggle" that many physical objects show since the switch to H4 (some birds are especially bad in that regard) when they use llLookAt and llMoveTo. It's allways a question where to make the compromise, not whether to make a compromise at all, with vehicles in SL.

Killing the mainland trains with their guidance system would make me sad, though - if only because I think instead of killing it, they should see it as an interesting usecase of physics. I've seen quite some interesting work done with the guidance system (even with non-physical stuff - Beware Hax has a totally amazing trolley working with the guides that is non-phys and has smooth movements as if it was physical, just without the wiggle!), it would be sad (and, quite frankly, utterly stupid if there is no really _hard_ reason to do so) if those would be killed.

[Maklin Deckard]

Prokofy, could you or one of the readers here, put me in contact with the source of this railroad scripting? I tried to use the one Barney made that desmond mentioned, but after several successful suborbital launches of an engine, I find I really do not understand the code enough to use it, so figured I might look into a rail-based system

[Prokofy Neva]

Maklin, you should talk to Jer Straaf.

[Maklin Deckard]

Thank you, I shall contact Jer ingame. Perhaps my Steampunk Electrical engine may see the light of day after all!