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Cocoanut Koala

I don't want a business counsel! LL would be "choosing" and "selecting" who gets to be on it, like they did this one from May, and are going to do in the new Gold program.

AND they'd make us pay $500 just to get visibility!

And did you notice on that Gold thing, the $500 "application fee" will be applied to the first year's $500 charge? Which indicates that if they don't choose you, you're out $500 anyhow.


Cocoanut Koala

If that's true, it's like earnest money -


- except they decide they're not going to sell you the house, just keep your money.


Ann Otoole

Actually the 500 is to pay for the time required to do the reference checking. But since references can be faked so easily it is sort of a joke. Now if they are doing a pre employment screening for credit score, criminal record, and other such checks well those cost real money to do and cannot be faked. In fact I recommend they do credit and criminal history checks. Let us see how many remain on that council after credit and criminal history checks.

As for legit I heard about the gold program from someone that is totally outside of the ficness and is just an existing solution provider scratching and clawing for business so I think it is for real.

Prokofy Neva

Here's some more lovely convo with Neil. He's convinced I'll be discredited as a "bad journalist" and "uncivil rude human being" by publishing this log, but I hope it will contribute to illustrating just what a tool he is.

Good Lord, I had no idea how disgraceful this stuff has been getting. But you know? Inworld business in part can only blame itself for not uniting and fighting this, and fighting the Lindens, frankly, to whom they pay so much tier. It shouldn't just take me standing out here alone on the horizon with this struggle which I know in fact is going on for many people on the grid, with all their difficulties of copyright theft, instability and lost builds, a downturn in business, ad farms and devaluation, the land glut -- all the ills that we have faced this last year.

What will it take, to get people organized, I don't know, but I can only make a symbolic fight myself, by taking on one of these tools as he appears, and exposing what's going on.

I pick up the convo where i still have it showing, prior to this he had said something about some of these businesses who were represented on this council are in fact inworld businesses, and they "give back to the community" turning over "entire sims".

That sort of thing makes me spit. I give over entire sims, too, to the land preserve and other projects. And I'm nothing compared to other people who have done tremendous amounts more of volunteer, unpaid activity (like Carl Metropolitan). They are not selected to be in any inworld council, non-profit or business or anything, although apparently they are now declared officially recognized helpers (but...the OI and HI policy has all hung fire as they dick around with other things like this lame SLURL).

[2008/09/22 19:10] Prokofy Neva: oh make me BARF with this "give back to the community"
[2008/09/22 19:10] Prokofy Neva: what crap
[2008/09/22 19:10] Neil Robinson: I havent tried to justifty anything
[2008/09/22 19:10] Neil Robinson: hold up
[2008/09/22 19:10] Neil Robinson: what have I justified, I just offered an opinion on the levels of SLdev and how its works etc
[2008/09/22 19:10] Prokofy Neva: of course you have
[2008/09/22 19:10] Prokofy Neva: you are busy spouting the Linden line, reassuring us ad farms are going away, and inworld business is represented ont his council which it is most decidedly is not
[2008/09/22 19:10] Neil Robinson: no, I've said what potentially exists, but not alluded either way to whether its good or bad
[2008/09/22 19:10] Prokofy Neva: and I say this as a small business, I'd love to hear what real big businesses in world would think of this, and they will be reading about it on my blog
[2008/09/22 19:11] Prokofy Neva: SLDEV is the inside list that I exposed more than a year ago when they tried to give people a deal on the islands getting grandfathered
[2008/09/22 19:11] Prokofy Neva: they were apologetic about that; now they are merely institutinoalizing the favouritism
[2008/09/22 19:12] Neil Robinson: well, adfarms are going away, I hope - I've no more info on that than you but I'm hoping it holds true. I'm an optimist, what can I say
[2008/09/22 19:13] Prokofy Neva: Not a single one of those people on that list represent an inworld business as their main activity in SL; they are all working for companies
[2008/09/22 19:13] Prokofy Neva: whatever their glorious past once as humble inworld businesses 4 years ago, like Kim, that is definitely not the case now
[2008/09/22 19:13] Prokofy Neva: not a single one of them is SOLELY an inworld business
[2008/09/22 19:13] Prokofy Neva: so stop it with the fake assessments
[2008/09/22 19:13] Prokofy Neva: anyway, tell it to my blog, I'm done
-- Instant message logging enabled --
Neil Robinson: (Saved Mon Sep 22 22:14:11 2008) ok, I'm not trying to prove anything, I just thought it'd be interesting to have a chat
Neil Robinson: (Saved Mon Sep 22 22:14:17 2008) I disagree with you about the Sldev members.
Prokofy Neva: It's disgraceful, the entire thing.
Neil Robinson: :(
Neil Robinson: Hey prok I dont mind you quoting me like that on your website but it would have been nice if you asked. I know you dont *HAVE* to ask, freedom of the press and all, but as a courtesy..
Neil Robinson: I was just a little suprised I guess
Prokofy Neva: And you shilling for it is a disgrace to you and your "major brands you have brought here since 2005"
Prokofy Neva: No, I don't ask, not for things that are matters of national importance like that
Prokofy Neva: We live in a closed society and we are fed bullshit, so the press has to work as it must
Neil Robinson: For the record I would have said of course
Neil Robinson: It just would have been nice to have had it mentioned
Neil Robinson: 'do you mind if I put a transcript of that on my blog?'
Neil Robinson: 'no, go ahead'
Prokofy Neva: No, sorry, you are in a public meeting in a public place on the Concierge list, not a private chat
Neil Robinson: right, right. I'm just talking about issues of common courtesy
Neil Robinson: generally members of the press seek to retain a courteous relationship with their sources
Prokofy Neva: I don't display common courtesy to people in secret like this, who think it's just wonderful to carry on without the public "ever needing to know"
Prokofy Neva: Perhaps you can begin to feel some greater accountablity for yourself
Neil Robinson: I've got nothing against you, prok, I dont always agree with what you write or say but I think its important to have you around, but I think you radicalise things too much, by strongarming so much
Prokofy Neva: Well, Neil, *go fuck yourself* with your need to retain a courteous relationship because you are not a source, you are someone exposed as shilling for this disgraceful piece of shit, so please, get some perspective.
Prokofy Neva: And I say that with every ounce of fiber in my being.
Neil Robinson: wow, well there goes polite and intelligent discourse then?
Prokofy Neva: Absolutely
Prokofy Neva: This is war
Prokofy Neva: and will be treated as such
Neil Robinson: so you're at war against me?
Prokofy Neva: It's a travesty.
Prokofy Neva: Absolutely.
Neil Robinson: What have I, personally, done to warrant that
Prokofy Neva: You are shilling for a disgraceful disgusting institutionalized FIC.
Prokofy Neva: Now I'm done with this conversation, I don't hold private side chats, you can talk to my blog.
Neil Robinson: Thats the same as me calling you a debase anarchist that uses the press as a vehicle for terrorism (which I'm not), Just because I dont agree with you doesnt mean you're the devil, and vice versa, surely?
Prokofy Neva: oh grow up Neil, you're such a *tool*
Prokofy Neva: Your continuing this conversation will constitute permission to publish it.
Neil Robinson: Yes, feel free
Neil Robinson: I'm just saying that just because you dont agree with me doesnt mean you should declare yourself 'at war' with me and be insulting.
Prokofy Neva: Your types only understand force, and as I said, have this discussion with the public, on my blog, not with me.
Neil Robinson: I'm open to debate, or conversation, I've always thought you and your views interesting, like I said I dont agree with them all
Neil Robinson: sure as i've stated I dont mind you publishing this IM conversation
Prokofy Neva: It's an absolute disgrace, some people have even accused me of printing false information for publishing this SLDEVDIR crap today, so shocked are they that it exists
Prokofy Neva: they shouldn't be so surprised
Prokofy Neva: It's disgusting
Neil Robinson: Right, but I've never accused you of that, so why are you calling me names and saying you're at war with me now
Prokofy Neva: I am done discussing this with you.
Neil Robinson: this is our first chat, I'd hoped it'd be informative or interesting for us both
Neil Robinson: we're both on the same side, we both want whats best for SL and everyone involved, residents, developers, lindens, everyone
Prokofy Neva: oh, shove it up your ass, all that ridiculous muling crap
Prokofy Neva: seriously, I am done with this conversation, you are a tool.
Prokofy Neva: You shilling *whore*.
Neil Robinson: ok great, are you going to publish your responses to my perfectly civil conversation on your blog too?
Neil Robinson: Maybe I'll put it on mine

Prokofy Neva

Neil Robinson: 'A conversation with prok leaves me sad - no room for debate.'
Neil Robinson: You laud socialism and open-ness but you wont engage in it yourself? So, what, you're a benevolant dictator, you dont want to hear other peoples views, you just want to foist your own on people? Thats not an accusation, its a serious question
Neil Robinson: Well anyway I'm disappointed that someone who I've respected in the past is so unwilling to engage in civil discourse. You've obviously got a tremendous capacity for intellectual endeavor, you've really let yourself down here. Put that on your blog.
Neil Robinson: Goodnight.
Prokofy Neva: I do not laud socialism. I laud openness, which is why I insist you have your remarks in public on my blog, and stop trying to have some private side conversation with me. Stop being such a damn tool. Be disappointed, be whatever you like, it's disgraceful, you defending this operation, totally awful. I'm truly done talking to you.

Prokofy Neva

*SP Directory and Program Entry Requirements Suggestions *
- Quality control is important
- Suggestion from Ancient Shriner that selection and eligibility for
SP Program should be tied to certification
- Sitearm Madonna suggests any SP that brings in at least US$ 1M to
LL should be certified
- Alice Klinger: "i would say minimum criteria a certain age within
sl for sure. also being a real world company /self employed. [It] can
easily measure both and provide proof"
- Leah Salome: being a good communicator and hardworking
- Discussion about verifying if the applicant is a RL company - verify
with faxed/scanned registration certificate
- Kim Anubis points out that you don't need to register in some
places to be a legal company.
- Cezary Fish: being a company or not is not the biggest roblem, the
quality of service is.....

*SP Directory*
Full Service/Consultant divide in current Directory doesn't seem to
accurately reflect what companies and individual SPs do
- Kim Anubis: I'd like to see a division in the directory between those
who are paid in real money and those who take L$
- Several question the purpose of the division and Kim Anubis clarifies,
saying that it's about identifying "people who won't use RL names or
sign actual contracts, which tends to go with L$ payment." Important for
RL businesses to be able to distinguish between the those who work
inworld for L$ and those who don't.
- Having a vetted Directory has commercial value to SPs and LL - Most
agree that there is still value in being listed in the Directory, though
they receive less traffic via the Directory and most business through
word of mouth
- How should Directory applicants be vetted? - Suggestions include a 3rd
party and a LL employee
- Logo for those in the Solution Provider Directory/Program [8:48] Kim
Anubis: I think that an actual person has to go and look at projects
done by the SP and see if they're any good. Without that, the rest is
just noise.



Prok I'm not accusing you of being a bad journalist - I dont think you're *any* kind of journalist. A journalist reports the news- fact only - and does it impartially. You report *your views* on the news with no kind of impartiality. This makes you a columnist, at best. On a level with "Why for summer, it must be prada, girls" or other stuff like that. Which is fine, it's interesting. On your blog, and other places. Its a diversion, entertainment - but its not news. So, journalist: no.. (I guess if FOX is the standard tho you could match up to that.)

And as for whether I think you're rude or not, come-on. Clearly, from the above conversation, you're either rude, or you consider your position so weak that you refuse to debate it.

I'll let you come back and answer which of the above it is?

PS is this crap even relevant to anyone anymore?

Prokofy Neva

Neil, you are a total tool. I don't debate people in private convos where they get to pose and posture and huff and puff with indignation without accountability.

I don't care if I'm rude. And I don't care if you don't view me as a "good journalist". This is a civic duty, uncovering this sort of sordid thing in a closed society and the shills for it.

Anyone can see what kind of awful sycophant you are, and what a horrid apologist you are for this sordid system of favouritism and cooptation that views with the worst despotic regimes of Eurasia or Asia in form, if not in effect.

The idea that *these people* and their lame ideas constitute some sort of "Gold Standard," and the people not on this council, and not agreeing with them, and who haven't elected or even acclaimed them, need to be told harshly, "There's Always Upward Mobility" is a good example of why we need to worry about digital Maoism -- or call it fascism if you like, they're all similar at this level.

I don't watch Fox TV, nor do I care about it, nor do I view it as a model. I find the left is awfully blind to their own versions of Fox news, MSNBC anchors screeching about Bush and gushing about Obama, Amy Goodman's "democracy" and all the rest. The bias is only visible going in one direction to you lot.

Uncovering the fact that there is a system of even greater privileging than we knew? News. That *is* journalism.

Condemning the assholes who defend it and make it possible? Worthy commentary. Call it what you will. "Community journalism". "Columnist writing". It's hardly "entertainment" however just because some think "it's a game".

You and all your "brands since 2005" obviously didn't think it was so game-like now, did you?

Your smarmy shilling for this class of people is repulsive. There's hardly any debating you, because you can't see what you're doing. There is only naming and shaming.

Prokofy Neva

I wonder if someone without a conscious, without an awareness, who thinks he is "helping the public" and imagines he can identify what "the resis need not know" and "who gives back to the community" is ever capable of self-awareness. Likely not. That's why only the most vigorous assault can attempt to get the message across. I don't at all fear "a weak position" by some shill like Neil; I can only do my best to expose his appalling conformism. I think many readers will see it on their own.

Cocoanut Koala

Where are those meeting notes from, Prok?

You know, it kind of HURTS to see people talking so blatantly about how to keep the program to themselves, and consequently how to keep the business to themselves.

The more people allowed into this SP program, the lesser the spoils, as the jobs have to be shared with more people.

The ideas being kicked around include certification; bringing in at least 1 million US dollars to LL (wouldn't that idea knock out a right there? including some of those at this meeting?); and of course, someone going through the Directory and kicking out anyone not worthy.

LL is constantly thinking up ways to keep the riff-raff out of programs they intended only for a chosen few. And - the chosen few is helping them to.


Cocoanut Koala

knock out a *bunch* right there

Prokofy Neva

This transcript comes from the Concierge chat, the Concierge group is what you are invited to join by Lindens if you own one or more sims.

I'll tell you what the most despicable piece of this is: Ancient Shriner. He gets to fuck over the mainland and destroy value and parasite off inworld businesses forced to endure his signs (they will be banned if they try to block them), then he can sell this ad network to outside corporations, all the way using this SP council to influence the Lindens' policies, and ensure himself and his other partners in ill-doing a comfortable berth.

You've put it starkly, but yes, it's also about trying to knock out competition to themselves. The FIC just keeps on coming and the Lindens keep on feting and letting them come. They keep colluding together to keep everyone else down.

What's essentially backwards and even infantile about this approach is that anyone who really brings in a million to Linden Lab doesn't need to sit with Lindens and make endless committees and proposals -- they're just doing what needs to be done. And people who have *actually* brought the millions to Second Life have been driven away by the inability of LL to do some simple things, like let them buy advertising on the splash page, or provide regular support for them at the level they need for an enterprise.

The funny thing is, the Lindens were driven to all this SPC and Gold stuff precisely because they've let some very big ticket items get away from them, and they are scrambling now to see how they can keep them, I guess, and enlisting their loyal sychophants for the job.

I wonder if others in the development biz find that the problem with attracting new clients to SL, or getting old clients to stay, is that sub-standard or even shoddy builders and scripters have been hired, or people who "can't manage a multinational company's project."

The fact is, I don't where the "sub-standard" is, given some really stellar builders who are in a relatively small group that is hired by all these big companies -- the same ones who have always been our inworld FIC since day one. To be sure, some of these people are builders and tekkies but poor managers, no doubt, but even some of them have distinguished themselves, have they not? If anything, the shoddiness I've heard about is on the part of some of these companies who are arrogant in co-opting work as their own, underpaying, failing to grasp the staffing requirements, etc. They are the poor managers, in fact, but of course, they can't be allowed to know that.

In this regard, this article here about a woman who just cold-called the big companies and undercut some of the fabulous SP types is very interesting:


Also read Mitch Wagner's interesting piece about where LL is at lately trying to make a corporate comeback:

Darien Caldwell

I heard about the SP Gold program last week, from this post started by a SP:


So, coming from a 3rd party i have to think it's real.

Cocoanut Koala

No, I mean this part, in the comments:

"*SP Directory and Program Entry Requirements Suggestions *
- Quality control is important
- Suggestion from Ancient Shriner that selection and eligibility for
SP Program should be tied to certification
- Sitearm Madonna suggests any SP that brings in at least US$ 1M to
LL should be certified
- Alice Klinger: "i would say minimum criteria a certain age within
sl for sure. also being a real world company /self em ... "


Ann Otoole

Perhaps the statement about if so and so "brings" 1 million dollars to sl they should be certified mean if someone is doing very large amounts of L$/$ transactions they need to be vetted. I would agree with that. And not just ref checks. A full background investigation. Such as anyone with more than $5000 USD per month through SL.

The whole purpose of the solution provider program is to migrate the money out of SL and be transactions between businesses so LL will never see it anyway. Therefore each gold solution provider must, mandatory, no exceptions, be bonded for a minimum of 2.5 million dollars. This is common in the tech consulting field. A corporation is retarded if they hire a contractor directly if that contractor is not bonded. Perhaps companies that are retarded should not be allowed in Secondlife at all? I.e.; help them to not make big mistakes by not allowing them in until they grow up.

Checking some avatar accounts as "references" is retarded. It is meaningless. Being bonded means a lawsuit can get at least that much in damages. Thus removing the can't squeeze blood from a rock (or fat guy in mom's basement as Stroker found out).

Yes the Gold Solution providers must be bonded. Those who are don't even need the GSP anyway since being bonded means more than the LL asking an anonymous account in burma if some griefer is a cool dude.

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