Ugh, I've dealt with Anshe Chung for 4 years, and I've generally respected and supported what she has done, although there have been times when she has behaved like an utter asshole and gouged the hell out of me and engaged in what can only be called "sharp business practices". That's how she got to be an SL millionaire, and I understand that. I'm always welcome NOT to pay her exhorbitant prices.
But I feel on the openspace gouge, ACS needs to be called hard, and needs to become accountable to the many hundreds of their customers, if not thousands, renting these sims.
Right now, Guni is holding a town hall, from which I've been ejected for asking too many uncomfortable questions, with a gaggle of his sycophants chiming in to silence me.
The fact is, all this time, ACS has been gouging on the OS sims. They were the lucky ones, due to being so large, who got them second after Adam Zaius, 4 to a pack, when they weren't offered as easily as they are offered today to everyone with one click in the land store. So they bought hundreds if not thousands of them, and the tier on all of them was grandfathered. That means they paid $50 per sim in tier, and charged us $85 in tier.
As any one hustling the OS sims now, the most they can charge is about $90, and normally the market price is $75, but that's for *the class five, non-grandfathered, $295 tier sims*. These are *class four, grandfathered, $195 tier sims*. I've been paying $85 for a class 4 OS with no estate perms -- as have many others. Why? Because for one, I didn't realize at first that it was still class 4. It doesn't sit up and bark and tell you that. I also didn't realize that people with the $50 sims were charging only $65 lol.
So I think it's reasonable to expect that Guni, in making his price hikes now due to the Lindens' announcement, be cognizant of the fact that he has gouged all this time, and not hike the price at all, or hike it reasonably, not overpriced Dreamland style. For one. If he wishes to hang on to his customers. And at the very least, if he raises the price to Dreamland/gangland-style of $150 or more, to offer estate management perms -- something ACS does not offer on any OS sim, new or old.
The reasons they are mumbling about this strange practice of refusing the the EM perms make no sense. They are saying that because some are within regions of the same name, and not separate estates, they can't do this. But...they can. They merely have to make them their own estates, as all the other managers do. Every single other SALES agent of these OS sims is offering EMs. With the price hike, that's an absolute requirement.
[16:12] Rya Nitely: we're all thinking hard for the solutions
[16:12] Cristi Ra: could some one can tell me what is this meeting about
[16:13] Mariana McBride: Open sims
[16:13] Cristi Ra: i am living at malaga sims
[16:13] Cristi Ra: ty
[16:13] Liliana Galli: Is on e of the Dreamland rep's going to make a statements?
[16:14] RubyStarlight Writer: I'm sure they will being that there are 4 of them here
[16:14] Ayestah McLaglen: yeah, might tell us what we can expect from January the 1st
[16:14] chiz Okey: we are all waiting for the person that invited us to this meeting
[16:14] Risa Bright: ohhh Guni
[16:14] chiz Okey: yep
[16:14] chiz Okey: he was on but seems to have crashed
[16:15] Mariana McBride: and sl is wierd again....
[16:15] chiz Okey: cheese and crackers anyone? wine?
[16:15] Liliana Galli: Thank you for letting us know what is going on
[16:15] Cristi Ra: we must know what is the next step we should do
[16:16] Talon DeCuir: Again? it stopped being weird? I missed it!
[16:16] chiz Okey: no it is weird strange not just weird
[16:16] Snow Fargis: I believe it is just normal
[16:17] Talon DeCuir: But still a great medium - so many people from all over the world
[16:17] Mariana McBride: haha Talon
[16:17] Cristi Ra: yeah
[16:17] Prokofy Neva: You realize that ACS has way overcharged on OS sims now for years, they pay $50 per sim in grandfathered tier, and charge $85 or so, so now they'll be forced to mark up to $150 or more. Of course, they could make up for the fact that they've gouged all this time by not raising prices at all, or not by much, and of course at a bare minimum, adding estate permissions, which is absolutely standing now in all rental agencies all over SL.
[16:17] Mariana McBride: yes and Lindens taking advantage on that
[16:17] The growing Anne Marie pushes on Jessi's bladder causing them discomfort.
[16:18] Prokofy Neva: Everyone in this meeting should be demanding estate permissions on OS sims, like every other tenant of an OS sim has all over SL, given that they will be raising the prices -- it's an absolute bottom line demand.
[16:18] Prokofy Neva: ACS's failure to give estate perms on these sims is really atrocious, and inexplicable, as every single other rental and continent in SL offers them on OS sims now.
[16:19] Carcinia Polano: You do realize that not OS sim are their own estates, many are within regions that encompass severl sims making EM right not always possible
[16:19] RubyStarlight Writer: Estate permissions will not matter as we are no longer allowed to OWN the open space sims. And you can only have 10 estate managers per estate and all Dreamland sims fall under one estate, hence why estate permissions are not granted. Now that we cannot OWN our sims, it won't matter one way or another, because estate rights is not ownership. You must own a full prim sim to be able to fully own, with all rights directly to LL, an open space sim.
[16:20] Airvata Rental 1 $700: A rental has expired.
[16:20] Prokofy Neva: Carcinia, you do realize that you are speaking utter nonsense? That's immaterial. You can offer the perms on each and ever sim no matter how it is set or where it is sitting
[16:20] Prokofy Neva: Of course they matter, because then you can reset them when they crash, instead of waiting for the Lindens or ACS!!!
[16:21] Carcinia Polano: If there are 10 sims in a regions you can only fill 10 EM spots regardless of which sim it is
[16:21] Prokofy Neva: Seriously, Carcinia, it is really absolute nonsense you are speaking
[16:21] Prokofy Neva: any and all OS sims can be set to give estate perms, regardless, and you know that, and it is inexplicable
[16:22] RubyStarlight Writer: Prokofy it sounds like your issue is with Dreamland and not LL's new policy. Might I suggest rather than going on a rant about your personal issues in this forum, you address it by speaking with the Dreamland Team on your own time, or perhaps choose to purchase your land directly through LL or another management company.
[16:22] Snow Fargis: What is a reasonable amount of time to wait for the person who called this meeting
[16:22] Risa Bright: Prokofy, I don't know your experience, but in 20 months of living in dreamland, I have had superior customer service from ACS....and the angels... I have no complaints and I own a full double prim sim
[16:22] Prokofy Neva: these aren't personal issues, these will affect us all, there is no earthy reason not to give estate perms, it's completely insane
[16:22] Prokofy Neva: every single person here should have estate perms on their OS sim, full stop
[16:22] Liliana Galli: I am concerned about the rate increase..what are Dreamland's intentions?
[16:22] Prokofy Neva: ESPECIALLY if ACS is now going to mark up prices
[16:22] RubyStarlight Writer: This meeting is about LL's new open space policy, not a town meeting of individual grievances.
[16:23] RubyStarlight Writer: If you don't like Dreamland methods and policy, it's very simple to take your business elsewhere.
[16:23] Prokofy Neva: and gievn their gouging that has historically gone on now since 2006, it's especially important to see what they think they will get away with
[16:23] Cristi Ra: I am concerned about that too
[16:23] RubyStarlight Writer: And I'm with Risa, I have had wonderful customer service.
[16:23] Prokofy Neva: No, it's a meeting about *Dreamland's prices and practices in light of LL's accouncements"
[16:23] Prokofy Neva: if you want a meeting about LL only, go on Nautilus
[16:23] chiz Okey: Prokofy that is not true at all
[16:23] Prokofy Neva: Customer service is very spotty at best, we all realize that, since master Quatro left, and this failure to give estate perms is inexplicable
[16:24] Risa Bright: Customer service is superb..and I have needed it alot
[16:24] RubyStarlight Writer: I don't know about the rest of you but I'm pretty much about to mute Prokofy as I see he isn't going to offer much in the way of constructive comments.
[16:24] Liliana Galli: I am happy with Dreamland and just want to knowwhat the new tier will be
[16:24] RubyStarlight Writer: And I've had better service in fact SINCE Master Quattro left, as most of my messages to him went ignored.
[16:24] chiz Okey: this is a meeting to explain what DL will do to counter LL new OS rates and please I ask that you tone down a bit...leave some for when the meetings gets started
[16:24] Prokofy Neva: The new tier has to be backed by giving estaet perms
[16:25] Prokofy Neva: chiz, who are you? are you moderating this meeting? You are a mere tenant or an angel?
[16:25] chiz Okey: and who are you?
[16:25] Guni Greenstein: Greetings
[16:25] RubyStarlight Writer: If you look at her tag you'll see she's an Angel lol
[16:25] Risa Bright: hi Guni
[16:25] RubyStarlight Writer: very perceptive
[16:25] Prokofy Neva: in other words, powerless
[16:25] chiz Okey: hello Guni
[16:25] chiz Okey: just as you my dear
[16:25] iqlia Slunce: Prokofy cállate la boca mentecatooooooo!!!
[16:25] Guni Greenstein: I am sorry for being late, my PC clock doesn't seem to know American summer/winter time
[16:25] Guyke Lundquist: hey Guni
[16:26] Mariana McBride: Hello Guni
[16:26] Prokofy Neva: no, I am not so powerless, as I can dump my sim and blog about the bad policies just like anyone : )
[16:26] RubyStarlight Writer: ok... and he's muted... I don't have time or patience for stupid.
[16:26] Carcinia Polano: Hello Guni
[16:26] Bradl3y Quandry: Hi Guni
[16:27] Guni Greenstein: I guess you all know the news about Linden Lab's sudden price hikes
[16:27] RubyStarlight Writer nods
[16:27] Guni Greenstein: It came as a big surprise for all of us and I guess noone expected somethign like that
[16:27] Prokofy Neva: Guni, you need to speak to two points: a) you have been gouging on the prices here for years, as you know, paying $50 per grandfathered sim, you mark up to $85, the market doesn't have this sort of mark-up anywhere, the class 5 $295 sims are marked up to $85, not the $50 sims to $85, so your price increases should reflect the gouge that has gone on since 2006 2) unlike a single other rentals agency in SL, you do not offer estate perms, inexplicably, and your angels keep babbling nonsense about that, you need to at the very least, grant estate perms on these sims if you will be jacking up the price as the Lindens have done.
[16:28] Guni Greenstein: Prokofy, we pay different prices for sims to Linden Lab, some are grandfathered, some are not
[16:29] Prokofy Neva: Guni, on the grandfathered, you have been charging $85 *all this time* -- that is the point, on class 4 sims, without estate perms!
[16:29] RubyStarlight Writer: Guni.... I think we are all very eager to know what the Dreamland plan is to handle the change in LL policy, and less interested in Prokofy's political agenda.
[16:29] Guni Greenstein: We kept our tiers quite consistent for over 3 years
[16:29] chiz Okey: /nods
[16:29] Prokofy Neva: It's not ap olitical agenda, it's directly related to a) past pricing which was gouging and the consequences of that now and b) current practices, which must include giving estate perms if you jack up the price to $150 or higher
[16:30] Guni Greenstein: We still have people grandfathered paying us 215$ per month for a full sim (which after PayPal fees etc. just barely covers our tiers)
[16:30] Guni Greenstein ejected and banned you from this land.
[16:31] Cannot enter parcel, you are not on the access list.
[16:31] Cannot enter parcel, you are not on the access list.
[16:31] Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/Riku/1/1/
16:24] Prokofy Neva: Hi, I'd like to see what others here have to say about the Dreamland claim as to why they cannot set estate perms for tenants on OS sims
[16:24] Prokofy Neva: They say this: "You do realize that not OS sim are their own estates, many are within regions that encompass severl sims making EM right not always possible"
[16:24] Prokofy Neva: that sounds completely bogus, as I can see thaty ou can give these permissions on any sim, regardless, no matter where it is, or how it is set up
[16:25] Gina Dawn: they might mean on the estate page of the region/estate board... if you change the settings on one, it affects all others with the same estate name
[16:26] Gina Dawn: apparently all have the same Estate name (though their region names obviously differ)
[16:28] Prokofy Neva: so? they can all have perms then, it truly makes no difference as they can seize back the land
[16:28] Gina Dawn: For instance, they cannot allow Sim A to change close off public access, cuz it would close off public access to all other sims under the same Estate name.
[16:29] Prokofy Neva: Gina, there is no reason on earth not to provide tenants with estate perms, none at all
[16:29] Maggie Linden: Estate managers can abandon land back to the region owner. If you have an estate with multiple openspaces in it, someone who's an EM can abandon the land back to the region owner on any of the regions in that estate, regardless of where they're renting.
[16:29] Keisha Ninetails: what Gina is saying is a pretty good reason
[16:30] Pituca FairChang: Each sim we sell to an individual owner goes into it's own Estate
[16:31] Prokofy Neva: that's not relevant
[16:31] Prokofy Neva: maggie, and so what? That's not a reason to NOT give estate perms
[16:31] Prokofy Neva: ALl rentals, Pitcua's, and everybody's here GIVE THE PERMS to their tenants. Anshe DOES NOT and there is NOT A REASON FOR THIS.
[16:31] Pituca FairChang: Then they can do whatever I can do except add and takeout Estate Manager and upload .RAW files
[16:31] Elanthius Flagstaff: Well, you would have to have every sim in it's own estate which can be impractical
[16:31] Gina Dawn: they can have land perms cuz it only affects the land options on their own sim
[16:32] Prokofy Neva: unlike you all
[16:32] Keisha Ninetails: yes it is Prok lol, you'd have one renter cpable of returning and wiping all other regions on the same estate whether they are renting them or not
[16:32] Elanthius Flagstaff: I don't give estate manager permissions to anyone
[16:32] Prokofy Neva: oh well Guni has ejected me from the meeting for asking these questions, but it's very inexplicable that Anshe does not offer these perms TO ANYONE
[16:33] Prokofy Neva: What is the reason for not giving people who BUY OS sims the estaet manager privileges?
[16:33] Prokofy Neva: ther eisn't a good one -- that's why most companies give them
[16:33] Pituca FairChang: That would be dangerous ,, in my mind
[16:33] Prokofy Neva: Pituca, you gave EM perms to Khamon, did you not? You give them to most tenants, do you not? please
[16:33] SexyAnn Ashley: well if you have the OS in it's Own Estate then it would be fine
[16:33] Pituca FairChang: I can't imagine why she doesn't give perms,, strange
[16:34] Prokofy Neva: Pituca, that's the point, there isn't a reason, that I can tell at all, except that it just keeps more control over the tenant, making them able to use more arbitrary methods
[16:34] Elanthius Flagstaff: Maybe she doesn't want to try to keep track of 400 unique estates
[16:34] Barb Carson: you need to put sims in different estates for EM rights to be safest
[16:34] Pituca FairChang: But then we make an Estate for each indivdual owner of sims
[16:34] Keisha Ninetails: probably because only the estate owner can add managers, considering the sheer number of sims she has it would be a full time job just adding and removing managers
[16:35] Pituca FairChang: I give them to all who buy complete sims Prok
[16:35] Pituca FairChang: Yes Barb
[16:35] Barb Carson: only the owner can add managers
[16:35] Prokofy Neva: Pituca, do you find, that because you gave all those people EM perms, that they return all the other tenants' prims?
[16:35] Pituca FairChang: That is prolly why Anshe doesnt,,, she has too many sims
[16:35] Prokofy Neva: I'm finding it hard to see how they can do that
[16:35] Barb Carson: well this is a good use of des owner..
[16:35] Prokofy Neva: but Pituca, if she made each owner an estate, she'd have less CS to deal with in the end
[16:36] Pituca FairChang: oh Prok, I only give them if they own the entire sim
[16:36] Barb Carson: have a des owner alt so management can do these things
[16:36] Pituca FairChang: yes I agree Prok
[16:36] Prokofy Neva: but that's the story here, Pituca, I own the entire sim, as do hundreds of the other people here
[16:37] Keisha Ninetails: key word being 'hundreds'
[16:37] Prokofy Neva: There isn't a good reason for this, whatsoever, if it takes an extra second to click a button on a purchase, what of it??? it's an extra second literally
[16:37] Keisha Ninetails: and only the actual estate owner can add and remove estate managers
[16:37] Prokofy Neva: No, Keisa, that's bullshit, if they can transfer a sim to a group, they can make one more mouse click and make them EMs, it costs them nothing, and saves CS expense, it's truly insane
[16:37] Keisha Ninetails: and then, each individual region would have to be on it's own estate
[16:38] Keisha Ninetails: one mouse click? it takes more than one mouse click to make someone an estate manager
[16:38] Elanthius Flagstaff: If she already set up her land with everything in the same estate it would be expensive and semi-pointless to move it all into separate estates.
[16:39] Keisha Ninetails: it takes opening the estate tools, enteringtheir name and adding them
[16:39] Barb Carson: its free to move to different estates
[16:39] Barb Carson: its just a ticket
[16:39] Pituca FairChang: For instance,,,,,,,,,,Khamon, he owns the whole sim, he named it, he is Estate Manager and can do everything I can but the 2 above mentioned things. But his sim is in his own Estate also.
[16:39] Umphrey Sachs: Question - what are the maximum AV's allowed in a mainland sim now days?
[16:39] Cinthya Loveless: Well Porker why did you get an island ofmr anshe?
[16:39] Keisha Ninetails: slightly more than one simple mouse click
[16:39] Elanthius Flagstaff: Hmm, you can move a sim from one estate to another for free? I didn't know that
[16:40] Barb Carson: yes its a ticket
[16:40] Barb Carson: ive done it before many times
[16:40] Keisha Ninetails: for now but, if someone like anshe decided to change the estate name for all their regions you can bet LL would start charging for it lol
[16:40] Pituca FairChang: That I didn't know Barb
[16:41] Cinthya Loveless: how could you not know that??
[16:41] Gina Dawn: Prokofy - each sim has an Estate name & a Region name. You have to give each one a different Region name (the name it is commonly known by), but you do NOT have to give each one a different Estate name. Thus I can own 2 sims with the Estate name of "GinaDawn," then I give them each a different Region name: Summer and Winter. Since both belong to the same Estate (grouping) the manager on Summer can make some big changes on Winter that the manager on Winter might not like. Thus I would not give EM rights to either sim manager. For real, I give each sim a different Estate name so that I can give each manager EM rights; thus they can make whatever setting changes they want, without impacting other sims.
[16:41] Cinthya Loveless: everyone knows that
[16:41] Pituca FairChang: Cause it never came up Cinthya
[16:42] Barb Carson: obviously not every cinthya
[16:42] Barb Carson: and there are tons of things we each dont know ....help each other out instead of degrade
[16:42] Pituca FairChang: ahh scratch my answe Cinthya,,, I knew that
[16:42] Cinthya Loveless: Welll Pituca is form 03 so figured she should know
[16:43] Pituca FairChang: i did,,, just didn't know it was free to change the Estate
[16:43] Pituca FairChang: I answered out of order
[16:43] Cinthya Loveless: estate names but not the actualy ownership of the ilsand like full ownership
[16:44] Barb Carson: you can change to an alt for free if there is no name change or location change
[16:44] Cinthya Loveless: yes to an alt
[16:44] Cinthya Loveless: thats very ture
[16:46] Prokofy Neva: Keisha, if it had been done normally over time, a few a day, of course it would be free, and should be a service, and in fact configured that way at the get-go
[16:46] Prokofy Neva: Keisha, if it had been done normally over time, a few a day, of course it would be free, and should be a service, and in fact configured that way at the get-go
[16:47] Cinthya Loveless: L doesn't charge for estate name changes. onloy the actuall Island name
[16:48] Keisha Ninetails: but then again, in a purfect world, we could do it ourselves via a web page in our account section
[16:49] Keisha Ninetails: agreed
[16:49] Prokofy Neva: Gina, I realize all that, which is why you give them their own name, end of story
[16:46] Prokofy Neva: Keisha, if it had been done normally over time, a few a day, of course it would be free, and should be a service, and in fact configured that way at the get-go
[16:47] Cinthya Loveless: L doesn't charge for estate name changes. onloy the actuall Island name
[16:48] Keisha Ninetails: but then again, in a purfect world, we could do it ourselves via a web page in our account section
[16:49] Keisha Ninetails: agreed
[16:49] Prokofy Neva: Gina, I realize all that, which is why you give them their own name, end of story
[16:49] Keisha Ninetails: gah, a company with engineers that rival those at NASA and they can't get something like group chat to work properly
[16:49] Cinthya Loveless: yes and we should be able to
[16:49] Prokofy Neva: it takes opening the estate tools, enteringtheir name and adding them -- a mouse click, as I said
[16:50] Cinthya Loveless: we use to be able to do roll backs our sleves until a few dumbies misused it to copy no copy items then that ended it for everone,, and Now only concierge Lindes can do it
[16:50] Cinthya Loveless: we use to be able to do roll backs our sleves until a few dumbies misused it to copy no copy items then that ended it for everone and now just lindens do it
[16:50] Cinthya Loveless: You can't change the names of estate your slef Proky
[16:51] Barb Carson: dont think prokofy said you could change names..
[16:51] Cinthya Loveless: I hate this chat lagg
[16:52] Cinthya Loveless: chat lag so bad it takes 432532 minutes for any chat to come through
[16:52] Gina Dawn: 4 sentences up, Prokofy said, "It takes opening the estate tools....." Does he mean changing estate names or changing EM names?
[16:53] Keisha Ninetails: ok prok, do this some day when you're bored, visit 400+ regions and open and close the about land for each region at least once, then come back and tell us how long it took to do
[16:53] Barb Carson: was talking about em's i believe
[16:53] Cinthya Loveless: well Gina I don't even know who porker is So i could really care less
[16:55] Keisha Ninetails: she's got renters now under her current system, it's working for her, hell, even you're renting one so, why should she change it?
[16:55] Gina Dawn: who is porker?
[16:55] Prokofy Neva: it takes one second, dearie pie, like opening any menu, and you click once -- sorry that strains you
[16:56] Keisha Ninetails: how is it straining me? lol
I didn't read your chat log. Usually my eyes glaze over when faced with those tedious things but I wanted to comment on this crappy grandfathering of sim prices.
LL had originally promised the grandfathered prices would just last until 2007 and then maybe just a few months longer and now here we are a freaking year later and still a bunch of FICy oldbies are paying ridiculously low prices for their sims that no-one else can possibly compete with. It's an absolute outrage and massively unfair. I'm glad LL are cancelling the grandfathered prices on OS sims and I hope they hurry up and do the same on the full sims too.
If LL grandfather the old OS pricing I'll be absolutely livid. Sure it will benefit me directly since I'll suddenly be part of the secret elite able to undercut everyone who comes after me but the whole thing is distasteful and frustrating and should be avoided at all costs.
Posted by: Elanthius Flagstaff | 11/01/2008 at 09:57 PM
Of course they grandfathered it,
Elanthius!!! Haven't you been hearing other people in Concierge talk about $50 sims??? These were class 4 sims that ACS got ages ago before they were popular, right before the private island price hike, and they were indeed grandfathered in their batches of 4, which is how they bought them then.
People like me who only wanted to buy just one then got to buy just one, back before that became possible, see. And they were never upgraded, and stayed the same $195, which is why I *am* livid because instead of charging $65-75, they've charged $85-95.
Why am I only livid now? Because for a long time, I didn't realize it was still a class 4. I thought all the islands were upgraded -- I had a class 4 island grandfathered at $195 that was turned to a class 5 about a year after the grandfathering -- they were slowly doing this with all sims.
I then come to find out that the ACS sims were NOT upgraded to 5. They really did perform worse. I also didn't realize, until I began hearing everybody in Concierge, that it was in fact possible to sell the sims and turn over estate rights -- I just hadn't somehow put two and two together -- and I also didn't realize that OTHER people with the $50 sims were only charging a normal mark-up.
I realized that ACS had been bilking us all this time, enjoying the grandfathered tier, but not passing along the savings as everyone else did, nor giving us EM rights, as everyone else, i.e. the Fairchangs, Azure, and every single tropical paradise pancake out there.
I asked repeatedly why they didn't upgrade to 5, because it was my understanding they could merely by asking. I asked repeatedly why they couldn't add the EMs to those of us who had bought full sims (not divided) but they refused to deal.
So yes, Anshe, and likely Adam and some others, have had a great ride all this time.
So what you're saying is they should grandfather them *still*? Why?
Or are you saying they should grandfather the $75 tier and not charge $125 for those who have them now?
As for "undercutting," the fact is, it makes little difference. It is hard to keep islands full, whether you have high or low prices, simply because there is a huge glut on the market now.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/01/2008 at 11:24 PM
A few points:
1. There are many Class 5 grandfathered openspaces that are $50/month. I own several of them.
2. I am going to have to raise my prices to $160/month after this price increase. It's not gouging. It's actually less of a percentage price increase than Linden's, since I charge $100/month now.
3. Linden Lab considers an estate manager to have full permission to do anything, including amend the covenant, change the "allow sell land" flag, and such. There is no way to give someone part of the estate mangement options and not all of them.
I don't "sell" my estate land. I only rent it with no up-front cost. One time I did give someone estate manager on a sim. 2 months later when they wanted to move out, they changed the covenant to lie about the monthly price, then they enabled land resale and "sold" the sim for $1000 that they had paid nothing but rent for.
Linden Lab wouldn't do anything about it, because they said that estate managers have the right to do whatever they want, including change the covenant.
So, no, I really doubt ACS is going to give anyone estate manager as long as there is no way to limit it.
Posted by: Gigs Taggart | 11/01/2008 at 11:30 PM
I should point out, I only do rental. I don't "sell" my land. People don't pay me anything up front but the first month rent.
Posted by: Gigs Taggart | 11/01/2008 at 11:44 PM
So, how much is Guni going to charge for the newly upgraded void sims on Dreamland?
Posted by: Khamon | 11/02/2008 at 12:12 AM
Gigs, are you retarded and unable to read?
The sims in ACS are both class 4 and class 5. They are $50 for ACS, but we are charged $85 for the class 4 sims. That *is* gouging.
Read the transcript. The way to give them perms is to have a different name for the estate, that's all. Not to put them all to the same name.
I don't know, Khamon, I got booted from the meeting before I could learn this, and it isn't posted anywhere.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/02/2008 at 01:32 AM
Barb Carson has a bunch of these grandfathered $50 sims too. And this blogger puts numbers in that I haven't seen -- and also says there are now 32,000 islands.
http://gridexpectations.wordpress.com/
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/02/2008 at 01:41 AM
Just wanted to clarify that my post (I thought pretty clearly) said that I am against grandfathering of anything for this round of price increases and hope LL also stop grandfathering full sims ASAP.
Posted by: Elanthius Flagstaff | 11/02/2008 at 05:37 AM
Robin made the classic statement in her last office hour that they wouldn't be grandfathering existing openspaces because it would create a class system.
Posted by: Khamon | 11/02/2008 at 10:40 AM
How is charging $85 for a $50 one "gouging"?
I mean I know you pay an up-front fee with ACS that I don't charge, but still, I'm charging $100/month for openspaces right now, and a lot of mine are $50 currently.
I've decided to raise my prices to $165/month after January 1, if linden keeps their word. I do expect a lot of people to leave.
Posted by: Gigs Taggart | 11/02/2008 at 07:44 PM
Of course it's gouging! People are charging $85 or $95 for the $295 class 5 sims in this market, Gigs, don't be a dick.
If you are charging $100 for a sim that costs you $50, you are gouging too.
In this market, you can even find them for tier cost or not much above cost for those that sell them.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/02/2008 at 08:21 PM
Maybe if they were "selling" the land.
No one is going to pay $250, then charge $10 over tier. It would take 25 months to recoup your investment, assuming you have to put absolutely zero labor into managing the estate. That isn't going to happen.
Anyway, my utilization stays around 90% even with the "gouging" you claim I'm doing.
Posted by: Gigs Taggart | 11/03/2008 at 02:56 AM
I have to agree with Gigs on the gouging issue. If you're trading land in SL you absolutely need a 6 month horizon for profitability. Maybe even less. LL are notorious for this sort of cockamamie move and anyone not taking the risk of this kind of thing into account is pretty much begging to make huge losses.
Posted by: Elanthius Flagstaff | 11/03/2008 at 05:23 AM
Yes, Gigs, you goddamn piece of shit, they ARE SELLING THE FUCKING LAND, DUH. That is the FUCKING POINT. They charged $200 or more per sim upfront to "sell you land," i.e. deed it to your group, without even handing over estate perms, THEN overcharged for 3 years on the sim itself, marking up $50 sims to $85.
I fail to see why you assholes are justifying a gouging practice. It's wrong. If you are diong this too, you're highway robbers yourself. Renting for $10 above cost is in fact what some people have been doing it, without charging upfront purchase costs. But there are mainy who charge near cost of tier or $10 above after selling for $250 or more, yes, but then *they give you estate perms*.
Guni is IMing me links to Gorean rentals 4 on a sim charging $10,000 per quarter sim in rent. So what? That's doesn't mitigate what he has been doing, which is chargine $85 on a $50 sim after collecting $200 or more as the purchase price and not giving perms.
Guni also tells me they are "eating most of the cost" of the upgrade. But since their $50 sims now have increased 150 percent, their customers are still going to see a whopping increase anyway, even if they do some serious eating, which is exactly what they should be doing after that gouge for years.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/03/2008 at 07:45 AM
Couple of clarifications.
If they're charging $200 up front then I agree a smaller tier fee would be appropriate.
Everyone charging $10 over tier and no upfront fee is in fact the "goddamn piece of shit" and I'm glad those idiots are going bankrupt in 2 months because they make it harder for the rest of us to run respectable businesses that appropriately price in the risks involved.
Posted by: Elanthius Flagstaff | 11/03/2008 at 08:26 AM
Elanthius, hellow, where have you been?! That's exactly the problem. That's why these girls are all so angry. To compete, they've been charging little above cost, in the current OS glutted market. Now they are stuck with huge bags. They have absolutely ruined the private island rentals business, gutting it out with their huge cheap surplus, and dentet mainland, too, by imagining they could take 10-12-18 months to pay themselves back, as people often think they can in SL. They forgot about the purchase price and greedily focus on their huge revenue stream which they can "manage" like Lilli Yifu bragged she could "manage". They brag that unlike greedy land barons, they will not charge very much because they aren't in anything so tacky as "the land business" they are, as Lilli bragged, in the "revenue stream management business".
It has always been the case in rentals, as surely you must know, that there are always no shortage of people ready to rent way under cost to friends or even the general public.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/03/2008 at 08:34 AM
Um, Prok? A bit of a wake up cal for you: Selling 'Land' of any size = Paying Linden Lab directly. If you pay anyone other than Linden Lab your tier ... You didn't 'buy' a god damn thing.
Personally? While I see both sides of the Open Space debate ... I am still laughing my ass off when I see people trying to claim that they have been using them as intended or trying to make the claim that Linden Lab not only intended to make this sort of price increase from the get go, but that they took steps to ensure that they sold a shit load of them before hand.
Why do I laugh?
These people will come up with any reason to shove the responsibility off of their shoulders and onto the Lab.
Both parties fucked up: End of Story.
Posted by: Sean Williams | 11/03/2008 at 09:13 AM
[Please don't flame me. Please don't flame me.]
Price gouging? Maybe. But where does it say that someone is not allowed to make a profit from their business in SL? And why are they evil if they do? If you don't like what someone is charging for a product or land, look elsewhere. Second Life is a big place.
Is anyone complaining that certain "in demand" dressmakers are price gouging because they sell a dress for L$1500, which is higher than the store next door selling a dress for L$250? What about Eshi's Fishhook Dress? Did anyone accuse her of price gouging? No. Because she created a work of art and people recognized the value of what they were getting, and wanted to buy it at any price.
And so what if Ansche Chung was savvy enough to buy low and rent high? I'd call it a smart market move. It's not like your price was hiked on you after the fact. You knew what Dreamland cost BEFORE you rented/bought into it. What Dreamland paid for the sims is their business. They are not obligated to "show you their books" regarding their financial status. And given how large they are, they have probably paid a variety of prices, and have averaged them, and then based their profit markup on the average cost to them to acquire and maintain a sim.
It's called running a business. If they do it well, people will like Dreamland, and be willing to continue to pay higher prices to live there, instead of somewhere else that is ugly, crowded, not run well, etc., etc. And that money will help to keep Dreamland afloat; to pay all of the various costs associated with promoting and running it. If they don't run it well, people have the right to take their money and leave. Let money talk. It always does. If Dreamland loses money, they will most certainly sit up and take notice.
But as long as everyone is happy with the quality of what they are getting in land and customer service, and are willing to pay the stated rental rates, what real business is it of anyone's how much profit Dreamland earns? I suspect a lot of that profit goes toward paying back the initial land investment, and the costs of acquiring more land.
It looks to me like Ansche is willing to take on the risk of large-scale land ownership so that other people don't have to. They can just choose to live in her estate, and benefit from what she has created. All they have to do is pay the rent, sit back, and enjoy the view. Personally, I think that's a pretty good deal.
[Please don't flame me. Please don't flame me.]
Posted by: Princess Ivory | 11/03/2008 at 12:03 PM
Princess Ivory, you are a total nit. Gouging is the hallmark of Anshe Chung. She has always gouged. Back when land cost $6/m, she would charge $12 for small squares of water that somebody liquidated just because she could -- because you'd be forced to buy it because it was in the view. If somebody chopped up land next to you into lots of 512 squares, she'd be right there marking them up as high as they could go to force you to buy buffer against the inevitable, she wouldn't link them up.
When there is price gouging, you have to expose it. If "nowhere is it written that you can't charge what you want" for land, then "nowhere is it written" that you can't expose highway robbery for said land. Especially at at a time when prices will go up AGAIN.
$85 on a $50 sim is a huge mark-up, and a huge profit for what it is -- class four, no estate perms. That has to be stated, again and again until people like you get it through your thick skulls. It's not about "doing business". It's about "doing gouging". It's not ethical -- and yes, you can ask for ethics in capitalism even more than you can in socialism!
There is no earthly reason to capture THAT much money in a setting where every 4096 already costs $25 just like the Lindens!. They do it because they can rely on people like me not to know it isn't class 4, or to believe that it was upgraded, mistakenly. They can rely on a herd of sheeple who will simply go along willingly without estate perms, and buy all this malarkey they are peddling about naming and regions -- when other agents, as we can see in this market, do not do that.
And that's just the point. *It's a free market*. And with the semi-free free press of a blog, we can expose a gouging price scheme, and say "Let's go elswhere".
I'm sure I'll find no shortage of willing agents to sell me an OS sim in January, when the prices go up, or merely rent it to me for re-rentals even. They won't be charging me a gouge. When ACS "eats the increase," it will still be a gouge. I'll be forced to let it go when it costs $150, because for $150, I can get estate perms elsewhere, which I will need.
Of course it's the business of the public what and how the profits are made. We used to have transparency on this at least with the inworld earnings as there was actually a leader board that showed everyone's earnings (I was like no. 5000 on that list lol). Anshe wasn't even always at the top because of hidden alts. Some of the people screeching the loudest socialist game on the forums in fact were the leaders in income from their land dealings.
The idea that we should let large entities just "take over things so we don't have to" is how you get totalitarianism. I fail to see why we need to go along with that like sheep. YOU may wish to be a docile sheep going to the sheering and even the slaughter; I don't.
It isn't a good deal to pay $85 on the $50 sim. Now that the sim will be $125, paying $135 even will not be a good deal without estate perms. People need to be aware of just how much ACS has bilked out of us all this time, and act accordingly.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 11/03/2008 at 12:27 PM
-yawn- You need to be aware of what a real price gouge is Prok: $50 sim? $500+ is a gouge.
Do I care for cut throat buying tactics? Nope.
Do I believe that someone has to RENT (no Prok, you are not 'buying' these Sims unless you're paying LL directly - end of story on that one) a Sim out for barely anything at all over their tier? Depends on how many other Sims they have as well as their finances.
Feel free to respond when you've woken up to the fact that the world doesn't always (nor should it have to) follow YOUR notions.
Posted by: Sean Williams | 11/03/2008 at 12:42 PM