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11/03/2008

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pyotr wolf

groups aren't ready yet; common knowledge, but it is under active development. parceling and groups are planned to be the same no matter who you are. the delay in delivery was longer than normal because the system is backlogged due to the sudden unexpected spike of signups. the main search will be active in the next viewer release (searching for people via the contacts pane works right now.) money goes active next weekend.

as for copyright issues, bot logins are blocked. unless a complaint is received, what else can be done?

there's basically only one chat channel in use, not tribal enclaves.

if your terraform, ground texture and estate tools aren't working properly, try hitting ctrl-alt-v to turn on admin options.

and remember, you're signing up for a foundation region; that's an early adopter rate, discounted because the system is in alpha. the functionality isn't all there yet, but you're saving money because of it.

Princess Ivory

According to the Openlife Virtual Land page, Private Clusters can be purchased in 1($75 month), 2($130 month), or 4($230 month) regions. There is a one-time setup fee of $145 per region.
Here's more info on private clusters:
http://tinyurl.com/69qz9p

And you can control many of the same parcel settings that you control in SL.
Here's more info on that:
http://tinyurl.com/57pc66

And you can buy "no build" water sims for $10 monthly; no setup fee.

Here's a quote from Sakai Openlife from the Openlife forum that summarizes all of the recent types of land, and the pricing, etc:
[QUOTE]Sakai Openlife wrote
This has been a common question and with the Private Cluster store opening I thought it would be good to do a quick post with the information.

This is a round up of the Virtual Land types and prices:

Parcels:
1/4 Regions. 128x128m (16,384m2), 6000 Prims limit, +/- 15m terraform
$24.95 Monthly No Setup Fee

Regions:
Mainland Regions. 256x256m (65,536m2), 45,000 Prims limit, +/- 15m terraform
$59 Monthly $30 Setup Fee

Private Cluster Regions. 256x256m (65,536m2), 45,000 Prims limit, custom terraform, parcel subdivision, parcel transfer, custom physics (gravity), estate management.
1 Region
$75 Monthly $145 pre region setup fee

2 Regions
$130 Monthly $145 per region setup fee

4 Regions
$230 Monthly $145 per region setup fee

NEW! No Build Water spaces.
Whole region 0 prim allowance. can be water or archipelago.
$10 monthly (per region) no setup fee

* Various promotions are also in place celebrating our 1st birthday, Order a private cluster and get an extra week free! or $30 discount for mainland to private cluster upgrades.
[/QUOTE]

I know it's still rough, but I have hope that this world will turn out better than SL. I like a lot of SL just fine, I've just never liked the way Linden Lab makes decisions and runs things.

Princess Ivory

Femina Matahari

Lets see 230 setup fee for 1 private island which includes 75 US$ for your first months tier fee. After that 75 per month. Foundation regions aka mainland 59 US$ per month. We are talking full sims with 45,000 prims. Do you really claim SL is anything more than Beta.
Currency will be on next week. Search will be December as will groups. Please tell me how often does search fail and groups not work correctly in sl.
Its not your fault you cannot terraform and that you expect OL to operate as smooth as sl. Your just impatient and totally biased. Remember at 1 year old sl was no where near as good as OL and if it is so awful over there at OL how come content creators are starting to move in from sl where they have had such a wonderful deal and not had anything stolen because sl is so caring.

You sound totally biased and your article is completley critical, there are many good points you have either deliberately ignored, mocked or just plain missed with your blinkered view.

Do us all a favour on OL, and yes I am a landowner in sl too, was 15 sims at one time till LL got too greedy, and either report fairly or stay with your greedy Linden mates on sl.

pyotr wolf

huh, funny, you say you can't terraform or parcel, yet i'm seeing terraformed and parceled land in your sim spice. somebody seems less than forthcoming...

pyotr wolf

nm, i misread that.

Prokofy Neva

pyotr, do you work for these peoples? Why are you such a little fanboy and such a nit?

It doesn't matter if "someday" it will work -- it doesn't work NOW. And that needs to be said. I didn't see anything about groups or group land on the forums because people there now simply don't think in those terms, they think about code and software features.

As for the pricing, good Lord, I know what I saw. I stared at it a number of times. It talked about a cluster of 4 for $500. Definitely. Perhaps this was a special offer?

This link refers to private clusters of 4 only, with no mention of any price:
http://openlifegrid.com/VirtualLand/OwnaRegion/tabid/258/Default.aspx

Now going on there, I see there's no land in the land store, and the screen for the private clusters indeed explains you can buy one. I can only report what I saw going on there the last few times, I have no reason to make it up, I was merely reporting what I see. The site seems to be like a chimera. I report something, then someone may change it? Or I'm accessing an old version? Then someone asks the guy "Did you change it?" and he says "No". But I simply report what I saw, like I saw the template with the TAX ID numbers. Now it doesn't appear to be there. Who the hell knows?!

I have to laugh at Princess Ivory, bitching about the way LL does things. Some of the things they've done are what we like to call "real-life motivated," they have to ban gambling or banks because RL intervenes, as it will with this world, too.

The people who have reverse-engineered SL the software will in fact reverse-engineer many social and psychological aspects of SL and replicate all the things the Lindens did, and make their same mistakes, and make them worse because they have a higher concentration of geeks, and they don't have a board or VC capital guiding them in the same way to take off the coarse edges of geekdom.

I'm not "impatient". I've had all the patience in the world for SL. But I don't expect people who claim they are "better" than SL to constantly make the plea that they are in beta all the time, or only one year old, or only this or only that. They shouldn't advertise features they can't handle. When SL got to the point that land was advertised, it bought much more smoothly.

This statement tells us everything we need to know: "as for copyright issues, bot logins are blocked. unless a complaint is received, what else can be done?"

A demonstrative, willful, belligerent, asshole refusal to look the issue I've flagged -- the misuse of Jeffrey Gomez Prim Blender thing -- a specious reply that makes it seem like copying only occurs with the program Copybot lol.

The tribal enclaves are being encouraged on the private clusters, and there are several chat channels in fact on the website.

I *can* terraform. I just said only a certain amount, not 40 m, and not smoothly, it's crappy.

Just because search or groups fail in SL doesn't mean you get to endlessly invoke that as a reason for this CopiedWorld failing. Oh, I guess you do ROFL.

People who point out a product is crappy aren't impressed by being told they are "saving money".

If money is active next week, I wouldn't use it. It's just too unpredictable in this setting.

The main reason it is not trustworthy is because of the self-defensive, neuralgic, belligerent attitude of its boosters. When you get people like this, you see they are touchy and evasive and unwilling to look at errors and mistakes because they are always trying to proove something. That's a very big red flag. It means they are not scientists, but geeks.

I fail to see what is "blinkered" about my view. I reported what I saw faithfully and accurately:

o groups don't work at all
o you need groups to have group land and manage rentals
o rentals are very difficult to manage without groups
o copying is rampant and the attitude to IP cynical, exploitative, and brutal
o money works hugely weirdly now, so if it is "coming next week," look out, things seldom change magically over night
o terraforming is wonky, and only goes up to 10 m or so.

I fail to see why, given the claim of the platform being ready for rentals, that I have to somehow report on something different, or put a focus on something different, like "oh, wow, we might get X or Y or RealXtend blah blah in the future". That doesn't impress or interest me. That doesn't mean I'm blinkered; it means I don't have blinkers on my eyes forcing me to look at geeky bells and whistles, I look more clearly at the bottom line for what you can do with rentals, which is a key to sustaining these worlds.

I fail to see what is reported "unfairly" or "biased" or "wrongfully" about this grid. It's all true.

BTW, I'm obtaining press evidence, if I didn't have enough all ready, at how belligerent, aggressive, foul-mouthed, and nasty Australians are. Although of course, thankfully, there are some nice Australians I've met on SL who redeem these unfortunate national characteristics. And I thought Americans were loud and ugly!

Prokofy Neva

I came to SL one year after its beta, in 2004, and it was far, far better. It had a working, functioning land auction and a private island order system. Inworld, it had parcels you could buy from other residents. The money system worked.

The idea that "content creators are flocking to OGL" is one that we'll likely hear over and over and over again as proof that it is not leaky as a sieve. Um, what content creators? I didn't see any. That is, I see that some works have been stolen from people like Lilith Heart, but I didn't see those creators themselves. If a few weapons makers or opensourceniks show up and make stuff "For the People," so what? That's not a world of content creation that's viable.

RobinG2 Proto

Hi There,
Not all OpenSim vendors are vague and fuzzy about abilities. Only some.
And pricing is different for all grids out there. Sounds like you should be shopping around for the right fit. Have you taken a look at a single sim rental from ReactionGrid? http://reactiongrid.com or give me a shout. Reactiongrid is ready to use in less than 24 hours even when you are renting an entire dedicated server that has 8 sims or more. And if renting a single region you get all rights and can give others rights or not at your will.
Really the point I am making is that not all OpenSim grids are the same - check out ReactionGrid if you are not happy where you are now - pricing is fantastic and the staff is willing to help.

Prokofy Neva

RobinG2, why do you call yourself "ReactionGrid"? What are you reacting too? Are you reactionary? That sounds like as bad a choice as "second life" as a title.

Kai Ludwig

No news in here ...

OpenLife is just a user of OpenSimulator. If they use the software commercially in premature state and promise to much they are to blame. With that they hurt the spirit of the OpenSimulator project.

But OpenSimulator itself is open source and can be used by everybody for free. So just go ahead and try it, if you are brave enough set up your own grid and if you are skilled to manage the backend perhaps sell land yourself.

If you don't like whats available for free now just stay with Second Life for a while and come back when OpenSimulator makes its V1.0 release. Then there will be stable solutions covering the market and plenty of companies providing support, service and hosting.

TalentRaspel is one of them and on its way. But we just don't sell anything right now because time is not ready ... later on we will. Stay tuned.

Greetings from the real world,
Kai Ludwig
Director
TalentRaspel virtual worlds Ltd.
http://www.talentraspel.de

Prokofy Neva

No, I'm not going to the expense of buying my own servers and programmers. I'll be like other people in SL who want an out-of-the-box solution, and it would have to be demonstratively better consistently than SL to make any sort of move.

I think it's great when platforms promising more spectacular 3-D worlds take their time over long periods in beta, like V-side, so that they don't flop.

It's like Guild Wars taking a very long time in Beta, and then avoiding lots of customer anger by getting it right on the day of show.

It's also good that there are scrappy pioneers willing to flop. But they need to be cheerful and open about the flopping, not sullen, defensive, and belligerent like OLG (and frankly, SL boosters were 4 years ago).

pyotr wolf

alright, since you mentioned it specifically, the blender trick can be used to bypass restrictions; however there's no way to know whether a particular use was legitimate in the absence of a complaint without examining every object created by hand against every object ever created in SL. does that sound very plausible to you? i don't see this cynical, exploitative and brutal attitude towards IP you mention.

why am i such a fan? because i've been on OLG since the very beginning; i've seen how the service has progressed in leaps and bounds over the last year, and obviously i'm emotionally invested in the success of the project; however, that year has given me a bit more insight into the service than you, and you keep making assumptions that to my eyes are dead wrong.

i'd argue that OLG is better than SL, but not on purely technical grounds; the advantage has been the tight-knit, inclusive and heavily collaborative community. to me, that's much more important than smooth terraforming and such at this stage. technical problems are much easier to solve than social ones.

the money system is wonky because they're doing tests on it before going live! duh! beyond that, your coments on the economy are based on the assumption that OLG will be following the same economic model as SL.

terraforming is probably wonky if you're expecting SL. i've never terraformed in SL, so it doesn't really bother me.

i said i misread the comment on the terraforming, btw. for that matter, complaining about missing features from SL is kind of a moot point since you've obviously misunderstood that OLG is NOT meant to be a clone of SL; the feature set will be diverging significantly in the near future.

ultimately, this is the problem. you've signed up for the service expecting SL, but despite the similarities, the staff at OLG neither claim they're running an identical product nor want to do so. were you judging the service on its own merits instead of criteria imported from SL, your criticisms would likely be better recieved.

btw, nice job pissing off all your australian readers.

Prokofy Neva

I piss off all my readers, so I'm equal-opportunity, there : )

what is your role again in this project, pyotr, in addition to "Chief Fanboy?"

Um, nice tap-dancing on the Prim Blender stuff. I'm sure that people with high-stakes creative businesses are looking at this more shrewdly past your double-talk.

I have to burst out laughing at the idea of putting in an exploit -- multiple exploits, actually -- and then telling everyone that it is "impossible" to examine each object for abuses, so that the default is not to look at the mechanism for massive abuse and deal with that, but to demand a case-by-case analysis of a zillion cases. That *is* brutal cynicism. It's part of that whole copyleft ethos (or lack of ethics) among the OpenSim gang. Force people to make cases, force them to start complex DMCA actions, force them to call their lawyer, force them to mount expensive lawsuits and earn only $500 at the end of the day, like Stroker. Yeah, great plan. Whereas you have to say, that SL, with all its exploits, at least does some deterrence with the c/m/t regime.

I didn't "sign up for a service expecting SL". OLG is EXACTLY what I expected -- a raw, unfinished, ambitious platform run by geeks and goofs who are in belligerent self-justification mode, like yourself. You file a better straight news story with your posts than I could ever hope to file, and expose this fact of your essence over and over again.

I don't expect it to do anything but waste my money lol. If it claims to be "ready for rentals" I will report on it -- and I have. It's not.

I'm not interested in "how many criticism are received". I'm reporting on how it's not ready for rentals lol.

Ann Otoole

All the people taking content, licensed for exclusive use in secondlife only, to non secondlife grids are likely to get a rude surprise in the not so distant future.

My prediction is the few thousand rippers will leave Secondlife and LL will have succeeded in getting rid of that social segment and massive legal liability as part of their 1 million concurrency plan.

There is always more to a story than meets the eye.

Persig Phaeton

Hehehe, you crack me up, Prok. You spent money on a grid service that has always been clear that it's in Beta. The OpenSim software it uses is still considered to be in *Alpha* (see the OpenSim front page). You paid far less for these in-development services and yet you naively assumed they were going to perform somehow similar to a fully released product that's been out for five years and still doesn't perform that well. Did I miss something here?
OpenSim's for-pay services are clearly not geared towards people like you. It's geared towards pioneers who can accept its shortcomings and who feel like investing in its future potential.
You somehow saw Beta and Alpha and thought that meant you would be paying for a release-worthy product? A fool and her money are soon parted, as the saying goes. Stop paying for services that dissatisfy you or stop complaining. I've come to realize that there are some people on this earth (like yourself) who aren't really happy unless they're unhappy. I think you actually *like* having shit to complain about.
Go back to SL. You will not be missed. :)

Persig

Persig Phaeton

Hehehe, you crack me up, Prok. You spent money on a grid service that has always been clear that it's in Beta. The OpenSim software it uses is still considered to be in *Alpha* (see the OpenSim front page). You paid far less for these in-development services and yet you naively assumed they were going to perform somehow similar to a fully released product that's been out for five years and still doesn't perform that well. Did I miss something here?
OpenSim's for-pay services are clearly not geared towards people like you. It's geared towards pioneers who can accept its shortcomings and who feel like investing in its future potential.
You somehow saw Beta and Alpha and thought that meant you would be paying for a release-worthy product? A fool and her money are soon parted, as the saying goes. Stop paying for services that dissatisfy you or stop complaining. I've come to realize that there are some people on this earth (like yourself) who aren't really happy unless they're unhappy. I think you actually *like* having shit to complain about.
Go back to SL. You will not be missed. :)

Persig

Prokofy Neva

No, I'm not "naive," Persig, but you are, if you think business people aren't going to take a very pragmatic, weather eye to these services.

I'm reporting on how it isn't ready for rentals, despite what it says on the can. That's all. Spending $89 to do that merely makes the report more persuasive : )

Why should I play "pioneer" or play "investing in the bright future"? Those are communist games. I'm a capitalism. I'm here to rent rentals. If they don't work, I go elsewhere lol.

Not only is this group in "Alpha" or "Beta" it's in "omicron" or "zero" because it cannot take off if it continues to have this geek attitude, "We're in beta" and "we need loyal pioneers" and "you can't criticize us because we said we're in beta" blah blah blah.

It's not about "being happy only by being unhappy". It's about a report. That rentals aren't ready lol.

pyotr wolf

prok,
my role? dude, i'm just a user. all of the information i have is available to you the same way i got it.

tell me, how on earth is it possible to prevent the blender problem you mention other than responding to complaints? SL is just as vulnerable to this you know. you say not enough is being done, but you don't seem to say what's missing.

and it IS a raw, unfinished, ambitious platform. it's version 0.6.4 for god's sake; barely halfway to 1.0! this is no secret! the problem is you feign outrage that it isn't a finished product.

and it is ready for rentals, there just isn't infrastructure to relieve you of the grunt work of managing your tenants and letting you be an absentee landlord. tell me, is there anything preventing you from charging other people to use your sim?

Jolly Jedburgh

What's the deal with all the smileys lately Mr. Neva?
Do I sense some joy there? Must be pissing everyone off making you happy :)

Well, I, for one, am happy that you are enjoying yourself and would like to give you a hug from all your Australians in an attempt to piss you off. Come here you cuddly teddy bear...

Nebadon Izumi

Just a heads up for everyone, there is absolutley no way your getting 45000 prims onto 1 simulator on OpenLifeGrid or anygrid for that matter, and if you think you can, visit me on osgrid.org and i will give you a sim to rez 45000 prims on and you will see you probably wont make it much past 10,000 prims on even the most powerful hardware.. This myth needs to stop being perpetuated, OpenLifeGrid nor any other grid can offer you 45000 prims on 1 simulator and i am willing to prove it, come see me and i will debunk all of the myths you have heard about opensimulator. DO YOUR HOMEWORK PEOPLE DONT LISTEN TO ANYONE! NOT EVEN ME!! PROVE IT TO YOURSELVES!

Jolly Jedburgh

Well, by the looks of it, they can offer it but we cannot reach it. Perhaps we may be able to reach it if we are not there to see it, then, are they really there?

I, for one, am not too fussed about what is offered and how cheap it is here and there. If you want cheap land that much do it yourself , rez away all you want for the cost of your electricity, invite your friends for a special party every now and then, or an orgy if that's your thing.

No you won't have to make everything yourself, second inventory does that for you and works well with OS.

Yeah OpenLife is nowhere near ready for such a population growth and this huge jump in logins is going to put them under alot of stress, this is the time to work hard at it and grab the spotlight Sakai!

Osiris Indigo

@Neb - I have routinely had builds over 10,000 prims and NEVER had an issue.

Yumi Murakami

Any grid can offer 45000 prims on one simulator, just switch collision detection to the client-side. 45000 *scripted* prims would be more of a problem, but you didn't say that. Technically, a single sim should be able to support an unlimited number of unscripted, phantom prims - you send their data to the client as it connects, and then you are done.

Yes, that means people will be able to walk through walls with a hacked client, but they already can with various physics glitchers, so why worry?

Nebadon Izumi

Like i said come to osgrid.org i will give you a server and you can prove it too me, i have never ever seen anyone get 45k prims into a simulator ever under any circumstance, you are both wrong and i will prove it to you and anyone who wishes to see it proven.. DONT TALK SHOW ME!! all you talkers need to shut up and do some work to prove your claims.

Nebadon Izumi

oh yea and btw everyone OpenLifeGrid has played absolutly no role in developing OpenSimulator, if you think im lieing do some research and you will also find OpenLifeGrid was nothing more than a OpenSimulator User, not a developer, they have done ZERO DEVELOPMENT on opensimulator project. and now they forked into a new project and no longer run OpenSimulator and are no longer recognized as an opensimulator Grid by the OpenSIM team. join me in irc.freenode.net #opensim to get the truth.

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