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Ann Otoole

You are wrong about Vryl. Perhaps you have allowed the herald spin to affect your opinion in some way.

In my opinion anyway.

Prokofy Neva

Oh, I don't believe the Herald. The Herald was siding with the rabble, the Bolsheviks, the people she herself was denouncing.

But the point is, she is stupid, and her tactics are despicable *anyway*. I'm sorry, you don't destroy an entire hard-won revolutionary group with thousands of people in SL. That's just the lowest of the low. It doesn't matter if the group has a lousy leader. It doesn't matter if the group has violent people. You form another group, you don't try to ruin the thousands of people in that group -- that's just undermining the right of free association and democracy itself, such as it is, in our constrained SL circumstances.

Cube Republic doesn't impress me, he seems like a landless opportunist, quite frankly, but it doesn't matter. The rule of netiquette has to be that if you don't like a group, start another one and draw people out of the first if you have to, but don't expel everybody or start monkeying with expelling founders, officers, etc.

Vryl continues to be secretative, manipulative, and unpersuasive. I forgot to put the link to her smarmy, disgusting shill on the forums, where, after fomenting revolution and promising to engage pro-bono lawyers in glorious revolutionary impact litigation, she suddenly turned about-face and began counseling everyone to "move on". That sort of smarmy shill is just sickening.


I rather like the Mandarin title, but perhaps not for the reason intended. And the "queen bee" thing is also accidentally apt. But I'm afraid the explanation is rather more mundane. I'll not clutter comments here with all the details, especially inasmuch as I've just gone all smarmy at http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/465476-post81.html in response to a quite similar accusation from Aminom.

Hmmm... I guess that would make Aminom Prok's alt, right? :p Unfortunately, I don't really have time to explore the full implications of that conspiracy: I'm falling behind on my ├╝ber-annoyingness.

Ciaran Laval

In RL I am a union member and there's no way I'd join any so called union in Second Life. People with their own agendas trying to manipulate for their own ends is a recipe for disaster and the lack of accountability would be shocking.

Vryl is an interesting one, she played the outraged card, then turned agent provacateur and tried to attack estate owners, then congratulated Linden Lab on the changes and smugly pronounced how they'd listened to her suggestions and then read the knowlegdge base article and went full circle to playing the outraged card.

Even now Linden Lab can save the day at the top of the ninth innings with two out and needing a home run they can up the Openspace limit to 1875 prims, freeze tier on homesteads at USD$95 and come out smelling of roses. Gigs will still be furious as he has grandfathered openspaces and it will be a kick in the nuts for him but the majority of people would sigh with relief it they made those changes. They could still impose the technical limitations too.

Three openspaces per CPU at USD$95 is almost the same as a full sim pays anyway, the price is probably right if they make that change. At 4 per CPU they'd be making a profit still.

Prokofy Neva

No, my alts are known, and I have no relationship to Aminom. But it doesn't take Aminom to make this point; it is obvious for the eye to see and he's not the only one clearly to make it. It's good that people sign their names when making accusations or speculation like this about another's role here; I'm happy to sign my name here because I do think it's a legitimate public concern.

Whether one comes by this role of Mandarin/Quisling (a Mandarin is just an intellectual co-opted as a bureaucrat; a quisling is something more sinister secretly collaborating with the enemy) honestly, or whether as a tool isn't material; the results are the same, somebody trying to gain prominence and manipulate others.

We all recall Qie's assiduous efforts to "revamp" the forums and Robin even having to publicly "thank him" in order in part to get him to stop bounding up so friskily and offering to "play fetch" for the Lindens.

This idea of the "straw man" is completely bogus and simply sounds like Qie scurrying to cover his tracks.

Aminom and others are right to flag the similarities between Qie's facile "strawman" and M's letter. There were others who predicted what the Lindens would do -- Ciaran also made some as did I an others, and we were also right in the broad parameters. Making predictions is a favourite SL sport.

It's the spirit in which you do this that matters. Qie is constantly playing the role of "community leader" and "peace-maker" and "pundit" on the forums in the same kind of faux-gentlemanly way that Desmond adopts. It's an RP game.

Whether Qie enjoys special hook-ups at the Lab, always a distinct possibility in our world where the Lindens indeed have such a built-in FIC system in very robust form now, or whether he twirls around, finger to the wind, instinctively figuring out the Company Line -- the result is the same. It makes Qie look good and look powerful, and it makes the Lindens look like they "consult resident opinion". Gwyn Llewelyn does this sort of act all the time.

Troy Vogel summed up the Lesson Learned by this caper: "Act soon, don't bitch, come up with reasonable alternatives, communicate them in clear English, don't stage LL hating protests and you MAY get your way."


Cocoanut is absolutely right that the Lindens have a policy of permitting people they hire to retain their big businesses and publicly influential roles inworld when they are hired. And therefore it is absolutely legitimate to ask each and every time there is a massive conflict like this "what they are up to" because indeed they are always "up to" something.

In fact, I heard of one recent prospective hire even being told explicitly that this dual role permitted can be at times counterproductive for the Lab, as residents whose major roles they find advantageous inworld can then slack off on those inworld roles when they become busy Lindens.

Lucifer weighs in there with a retarded analogy of McDonald's employees never being able to buy McNuggets, and needing to "keep their friends" and "really, they are residents, not just pretending to be residents." Bullshit. Of course you need a policy of Lindens who become public officials stepping down from their inworld roles and businesses. In real life, the whole reason people spend years banging on Dick Cheney, and rightfully so, was because of his ties to the military contractor Haliburton. The whole reason people banged on the McCain Campaign was because his campaign official had taken money as a consultant from the government of the country of Georgia. And so on. That's what politics is all about, graft and corruption and the need to build in safeguards against it.

There is no Linden, hand on heart, who can come out now and say they didn't manipulate residents during this grave challenge to their authority. Of course they did. And such manipulation is by now second nature to them, ingrained in their nature and routines.

I hate it when people in this debate start sobbing and wiping away their tears about "Linden are people too!" "Leave Linden ALOOONE!". It's utter, unadulterated crap. People who spend their real lives expressing hatred and animosity for the Cheneys of the world engaging in this sort of conflict of interest roll over and stick their asses in their air in Second Life.

It's not about "not being a resident" or "not having alts and privacy". Those are distractions from the issue at hand: *conflict of interest*. They need to remove the appearance of such conflicts, and the conflicts themselves, by giving up their big business or influential blog or leading public role while a Linden. It's just the right thing to do. If you can't let go, then don't become a Linden. And yes, they should publicize the list of Linden inworld resident alts as a matter of course.

What matters isn't that Qie is or isn't a Linden, or was knowingly engaged for the role of Mandarin or Quisling. What matters is that Qie *is doing that anyway*. It's a smarmy shill and he should be smacked for it in the forums. Oh, except you can't do that because you'd be banned, ok.

I don't recollect that at first the Lindens had a policy, and then changed the policy. My recollection is that they wavered and were considering our demand that they have this policy, then backslid and decided not to have it.

Ben Linden in fact published a very self-promoting blog about all this on his own personal blog.

Few people remember the telehub struggles, but a key part of our demand to the Lindens then was to have some publicly-known company ethics put in place. We wanted a policy whereby the Lindens would say they would not manipulate the world in that fashion and would see such people as having a conflict of interest, and demand that they recuse themselves from their inworld business/role while working for the Lab. We had a demand that they stop entering the world in stealth mode as well.

They made some half-hearted and strange gestures in this regard (like Robin forcing Torley Linden and Jade Lily to dissolve their partnership, which is now permitted Torley with another resident on Torley's alt). But they never stepped up to that plate.

The worst thing about the Lindens having a policy of playing a double role like this isn't even that they play this role so much as that they have hordes of fanboyz shilling for their right to do this without any regard to the inherent conflict of interest. That Sluniverse thread is a sickening example.

I remember abuse-reporting Zero Linden's alt for keeping his hugely high-profile business running a notary business and mediation service -- very political in nature as well -- on his Linden alt Zarf Vartangaloo, and the AR went nowhere, and I was told by Robin that it was legitimate for him to do this.

Oh, is Vryl back to playing the outraged card again? Oh, dear, As the Stomach Turns.

Prokofy Neva

Here's the demand on Sluniverse.com from Nika Talaj, who is another Linden suck-up and sycophant who plays a corrosive role in Linden office hours:

"I worked with Qie to put together a proposal on improving moderation and other aspects of the LL forums. Qie is not a Linden alt.

We did meet with some Lindens. It was very clear during these meetings that Qie was a resident like me, with no special inside track.

Qie has, however, often attended Linden office hours, and has been active in land issues (particularly the elimination of ad farming), since I've known him. He is a strikingly reasonable person, with excellent business sense and communication skills. It shouldn't surprise anyone, therefore, if Qie can synthesize a good proposal from the billion threads on OpenSpaces. And, if Lindens show respect for his formulation of what many others were suggesting, that too should raise no eyebrows.

Aminom, I truly respect your artistic talent, but I think Qie is owed an apology.

It would not be a sin to be a Linden alt, but you suggest that he is not only an alt, but behaving deceptively. Wrong on both counts."

I think this is all total horsehit. Aminom may be wrong in his claims about Qie appearing to be a Linden alt or colluding consciously with the Lindens, as are others making this claim, but so what? He's absolutely right to ask the question. Of course, through it all, Qie gets to appear as a noble victim, and much-maligned Community Leader which is also bullshit, of course.

I didn't elect Qie is leader; I find him odious and whatever his intelligence and sincerity, which I question, he doesn't represent me or many other residents on the grid. He's someone who likes power and influence on the forums, full stop.

It absolutely SHOULD raise eyebrows when two syncophants and suck-ups, without ANY mandate from the public, neither elected nor appointed nor even acclaimed in any manner, go on their own suck-up initiative to the Lindens to create a more-restricted forums than we had in 2005 prior to their closing of General. ABSOLUTELY should. Who the fuck *are* these people? They need to most resolute form of pushback, and their getting a meeting like this with the Lindens, without any social backing, without any public legitimacy, is INDEED suspect and will always go on being so.



There really should be a sign posted, warning that this is an Irony-Free Zone.

Of course Prok and Aminom aren't alts. That was to tweak the paranoia in the post. But after Prok's comments, that's a case I feel little need to press further.

In fact, it would be cruel.

Prokofy Neva

There isn't any "paranoia" in the post, dumbass. There is an expose of your behaviour, and quite proper questions about it.

Be as cruel as you like, asshole, I push back.

Your number has been called, and deal with it. You're the one who needs to be asked about their alts, dearie pie, since you're the one heavily attempting to influence public opinion and make inroads to the Lindens -- without any social mandate that I can see, except, of course for your forums lapdogs.

Prokofy Neva

BTW, perhaps for comprehension-challenged readers, one needs to post quite the opposite sign: "Satire-Rich Zone". If someone is name-called a Mandarin, a Quisling, and a First Secret of a Soviet stan all in one sentence, I daresay you can take it with a grain of humour, although of course such "intellects" always imagine they are in charge of the Irony Dept., and never anyone else.

Sean Williams

ah yes, here we see the usual hypocrisy from Prokofy.

No one 'elected' you to be a spokesperson either Prok: It's about time you stopped with this charade of speaking out, 'pushing back' and being an overall asshole.

See, you don't get to call others out for the same shit you do Prokofy: It simply does not fly at all.

Perhaps someone needs to start 'pushing back' against you for getting the notion in your head that you are some sort of spokesperson for the USERS (not RESIDENTS) of Second Life.

Perhaps someone needs to start 'pushing back' against your inane notion that Second Life is some sort of 'country' or 'world' when it is only a program.

Hate to break it to you, but it doesn't matter if even the Lindens refer to it differently: That does not change what is.

Prokofy Neva

BTW, for laugh value, see the modest updates Qiesling is posting:

"Oh, and no, I'm not a Linden. Are you kidding? First, in RL, they couldn't afford me, and second, I've had quite enough experience trying to turn around horrifically dysfunctional organizations, thank you very much."

Jahar Aabye

I treat any suggestion of a Linden conspiracy here the same way I treat stories of government conspiracies in RL:

It's not that I don't doubt that LL would have wanted to manipulate things to their advantage in this whole kerfluffle. It's that I doubt that they have the ability or competence to do so.

I mean c'mon, we've all seen the level of PR communication skills and customer service from LL. If they really had the understanding of human psychology and sociology to pull off this kind of manipulation....well, they wouldn't set off a near revolt with their botched method of announcing price changes in the first place.

No, they're a bunch of techies and computer geeks who are very very good at programming and maintaining a virtual world, and very bad at people skills.

Cube Republic

Prokofy I wasn't trying to impress anyone, I simply started a group because I don't want to pay an extra $50 a month to enjoy a hobby.I build stuff because I enjoy it. I would truly hate to be exalted to the heights of ironic obscurity, as others are on here, I mean WTF LOL.

Prokofy Neva

Oh! you're not landless then. Just an opportunist! Got I got that straight!

No, Jahar, the Lindens didn't botch a thing. They do this deliberately. It's a practiced, refined method. I even laughingly called it PainPoint in a post awhile ago. They have used this method very consciously and deliberately over and over:

1. Announce something outrageous
2. Let the shit hit the fan
3. Pretend to take feedback
4. Come out with something slightly moderated, but still basically the original concept
5. Look like they relented under pressure and consulted with the community.

Cube Republic

"not only do they post the most vituperative commentary about you, they viciously stalk you around the Internet, posting everywhere you post to try to smear your reputation, finding you where you live -- even in real life! They ferret out RL data and use it to vilify you; they post outright falsehoods. These types of enemies loathe your very being and want you gone from the Internet."

Prokofy Neva

Um, Cube, to post that you are an opportunist isn't "vituperative" -- it's a report. The reason Vryl could do what she did is that she could justify it by pointing to the way you behaved, and how you ran the group. You were not the sterling hero of the people you imagine. Get over yourself.

No one is "smearing your reputation" -- they are pointing out that you behaved badly, too, far less so than Vryl herself, in this cause. You didn't curb the nastiness and hate in the group, and you stood idly by why Kalyrra put around this ugly, bloody flag as the symbol of the cause. So you had your part to play, which was not a pretty one. Your protestations that you just wanted a cheaper sim don't quite hold up.

Nobody has posted RL data about you; nobody is ferreting out anything, you ass, they are reporting on the way you acted. What you fail to see is that why Vryl looks awful throughout this, and you and others are her victim, you don't look so hot, either.

Finally, no "enemies" have "loathed your very being". You aren't important enough to be "loathed". And no one has called for you to be "gone from the Internet". I never call for such things; I never call for people being banned from SL either unless you have really gross records of behaviour like sim crashing.

So, put yourself into perspective and stop playing the victim.

Ann Otoole

The Gunpowder Revolution of 2008 has been put down. The Lab reps have flatly stated there will be no further changes. It is done and over. Continued aggressive behavior by so-called "protesters" is now being met with suspensions and no doubt bans.

It is over. Leave or stay. The time for discussion is over and ended.

Cube Republic

For the sake of accuracy I must point out that ''You didn't curb the nastiness and hate in the group''.........I was in bed. And I never tried to be a hero, as earlier posted 'I simply started the group'. If you really believe that I was any kind of leader then great, your entitled to your opinion, but good grief me 'da leader' WTF LOL

Prokofy Neva

You were in bed for 7 days, Cube?

If you aren't the leader, why all the fussing and fuming? If you are modest, why all the protest about how horribly you are misunderstood?

Cube Republic

You've got me there! I was actually part of a FIC communist conspiracy

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