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Lewis Luminos

Someone on sluniverse.com who still has a technical female gender in RL, and a male gender in SL, *does* get to be referred to as transgendered because a) he is a friend of sluniverse.com and b) he is transgendering via dress, etc. in RL.

But that's silly. Transgender is what your avatar in SL is, too.

I'm guessing this bit refers to me. Now I will first say that I know nothing about your RL situation so I won't offer any opinion on yourself, but generally speaking, transgender refers to someone who identifies, in RL, as the opposite gender. A transgender person generally knows, or at least shows signs to an educated observer, in very early childhood. Choosing an avatar of the opposite sex doesn't make a person transgendered in RL any more than choosing a furry avatar makes them an animal. I guess if your avatar cross-dresses and switches gender then it could be considered transgendered in SL. Either way, I don't think it's silly. It's certainly not something I would wish upon anyone.

AlterEgoTrip Svenska

Yeah, um Prokofy? HUH? About the transgenderific problem thing, I didn't know you felt so strongly about it, how would YOU prefer to be addressed then, since this is a bit of a blurry line between the words of RL and SL, please do tell me where it is and where you stand on the topic of what you wish to be called as I do not WISH to offend you.

Lewis, you do make an awfully strong point; if one believes themselves to be transgendered IRL BECAUSE they have a av that is, and believes that other people who may have a male personae avatar are "transgendered" IRL because of this, does this mean that Prokofy in calling out Vint, may really just be projecting some kind of sensitivity upon her? Vint clearly is female and says her av is a furry... for the most part.

Do you think the claim of whatever sexuality one has can add to this confusion from that kind of perspective? It makes me draw conclusions I do not wish to draw but may be most likely in these cases.


You seem to have a more enlightened view of this, Lewis, than your confreres over at sluniverse.com They believe that an avatar who is your opposite gender cannot properly be described as "transgendered".

I say this is extremist politically correct bullshit. Of course it can be. Gender is what the bearer wishes it to be and manifests as, not what the public constructs around that person at its whim.

It doesn't matter one whit what I chose to do in RL or not, whether I "back up" my SL transgendered avatar with a "real life action of transgenderedness". That's PC crap. Only the rigidly orthodox assholes at Sluniverse.com could come up with this shit. If I went on there and said that Joshua Nightshade could only be declared gay on my say so, or I could get to decide whether his avatar was "gay enough," there'd be a lynch mob. And yet, they can pull the same shit on me over the issue of transgender.

What I've always found in spades in SL is that when it comes to GBLT, there is real backwardness on the "T" part.

I think you're wrong that chosing an avatar "doesn't make them transgendered in RL" -- that's the sort of statement that in fact forms the basis for the hate of sluniverse.com, and their rigid rejections of manifestations they are intolerant of.

Avatars are real. The act of transgendering your avatar is an authentic human act. Your human does it, not your telephone book or your computer. Does having a transagendered avatar mean you will lockstep, follow this in RL? Of course not. Not everybody wishes to, or has the opportunity, to transgender in RL.

Honestly, there is nothing worse and more horrid than the stifling oppressive orthodoxy of the left. Sluniverse.com is a perfect stellar example.

AlterEgoTrip Svenska

So Prokofy, to answer my question in a different way, IF You feel so strongly about it, why all this hating all over Vint?

How do you wish to be refered to, and P.S. if you wish us to respect your wishes, then is it possibly to refer to Vint who is clearly female even if you don't think so, to Her or She, or is that too much to ask of you?

Charity Colville

(this comment was meant for a locked post)

Always the skeptic, I was naturally hesitant when hearing about LCO. My husband and I are well known in SL for founding and creating some of its most successful club venues ... and attracting online traffic ... but naturally I had concerns with devoting the time and energy involved promoting a new venture to a fledgling enterprise without knowledge of its stability ... both from a management standpoint and technical. (yes Prok....I know you way back from TSO)

When Simone contacted me about LCO, and sang its praises, it was a done deal. I do not know Lala, but I have done business for years with Simone. She has always dealt with me honestly and her professionalism is beyond reproach. We created our avatars in LCO and made plans to build, invest, and bring as many of our friends and our 14,000 member group with us.

We can do "she said, she said" all day over this dispute, but the bottom line seems VERY simple to me. If there is a conflict over what the oral contract between these two is, and Simone wants OUT of LCO, which I know firsthand she does, then her content should be returned ... period! Lala, if you fronted her upload money...then eat it and call it a day.

I will say this in closing ... any intention we had of taking our sizable resources to LCO is over. I would never, and will never, do business with ANYONE who would so rapidly post private chat (in or out of context) for all to see on a blog or anywhere else. .(and I don't give a crap who does it first... Esquire or not)

Charity Colville

Owner/founder ~ Sweethearts Jazz

Creator/founder ~ Phat Cat's

Lewis Luminos

I don't believe that having an avatar the opposite gender as your RL gender qualifies as "transgendered". By having a "transgendered avatar" I was referring to something wherein the avatar itself was in some way transgendered or not possible to define as one or the other, or where the avatar itself is of ambiguous or indeterminate gender. Being a RL female and having a purely male avatar doesn't make you or the avatar transgendered. Now if you're dressing and passing as male in RL that's an entirely different thing. If you identify as male when you're not in SL, but when you're out and about in the real world, that's transgendered. Ditto if your "male" av was actually a crossdressing female.

There are tons of people who choose an avatar of the opposite sex to their physical one and they do that for may reasons. Maybe a testing alt for clothes. Maybe it's to see/participate in some hot lesbian/gay porn. Maybe it's an experiment. Maybe they just want to look at a sexy backside while they're playing SL. Maybe it's a way to get back at a jealous ex-lover. None of these things make a person transgendered. It's all about self-identification.

Also. You are so very right that the "T" part of GLBT is WAY behind, and not just in SL or SLU, this is global across the GLBT community everywhere. Progress in acceptance of the trans community is about 30 years behind the rest.

If you haven't already, take a look at my blog, the article I posted on Gender and Disclosure just before Christmas. You might find it interesting.

Ace Albion

If someone engages in homosexual relationships in a virtual space, but hasn't physically copulated with a member of the same sex in RL, are they, or are they not, homosexual, or at least bi-curious?

How does someone qualify as transgendered? Is there an exam you have to pass? Or is there a committee of scowling post-ops who sit in judgement of how people can define themselves? "No, you haven't been through enough social and physical suffering to be one of us- hie thee to a nunnery!"



I'm not surprised you believe that someone with a transgendered avatar isn't "authentic" and "doesn't get to call themselves" transgendered. Because you are following lockstep the rigid orthodoxy of the GLBT movement which is based on horrid, exclusivist identity politics.

You're engaged in a profoundly resistant act by changing the manifest identity of your RL gender, and surrounded by a conservative real world that tells you that this isn't authentic, that you are "really" female because of your physical attitributes, and that you "don't get to" call yourself male in any real sense. Oh, sure, there is a politically-correct or liberal thin veneer for some people that accepts your choices, but keeps their own counsel.

So, in true kick-the-dog fashion, you cast around, in your fierce search for your own tribalist identity, to find some other group less authentic than you. Ah, it's that group of people who don't "convert" in RL and "really suffer" but who merely have avatars. They aren't authentic. If they're less authentic, why, I'm more authentic goes that sort of reasoning.

In fact, some "Gs" and "Ls" in the GLBT will adopt a kind of sneer or knowing smile to someone declaring they are "bi" and shrug that they just haven't "accepted" their "true identity" and they aren't "really" bi.

And that's why I *loathe* the GLBT movement, which is basically yet another Marxist, 19th century movement, steeped in nationalism and identity politics. It is not universalist and inclusive; it is tribalistic and exclusive. Rather than seeking equality for all under the law, it seeks a series of special-entitlement categories.

That's why you get gay people defending Prop 8 in California seething with sneering rage at religious blacks who didn't vote for "their" proposition. They even want to disenfranchise them. They hate them, and even become violent about it. And that's because their movement has a kind of hateful core, which isn't "let's work toward equality for all" but "let's work for our own set of entitlements against others and others be damned."

I find these attitudes loathsome, violent, and illiberal. I find it especially unattractive when various transgendered people in RL have discounted me and invoked some kind of "suffering" card. They've suffered in RL by beatings -- and therefore the suffering of griefing and taunting in SL is not only trivialized, it's not even validated in any way. They've "really converted", so some pixel one-day wonder is a phony.

I find that intolerant and loutish, because it completely annihilates the person who might indeed be in transition. What of the person who simply has no money, or for health reasons, or reasons of stigma of the particular country they live in, or whatever binding circumstances, simply can't become the "authentic being" you can become in affluent San Francisco?! Why do they get to be annihilated and declared inauthentic?! They don't! If they want to make a female or male avatar opposite than what they are, and they seek recognition in SL, by God, it should be granted to them, and the word "transgendered" simply, liberally, authentically applies -- because to do anything else is to question anybody's right to change; anybody's right to tolerance; anybody's *freedom* to define their gender *as they wish* which is at the heart of freedom for sexuality and tolerance of its choices.

So I utterly reject your orthodox pronouncements from the Gender Police that say me, my avatar, or anyone else's opposite-sex avatar isn't transgendered, and I say a resounding: fuck you. Just as anyone who is gay and is told they should get "therapy" or "face the music" and "find a girlfriend": fuck you.

I don't think you back up and validate avatars from what the person does in SL. To do so goes against the very core of Second life, which is freedom. Freedom to chose, freedom to pick another self, freedom to manifest as your soul dictates, not as the Gender Police dictate.

If somebody adopts another avatar merely as a lark, or to test some clothing, or to get some peace and quiet for a day from constantly being hit on because their overly sexually manifesting females attract too much attention, so what? They are chosing a temporary transgender experiment. God bless them. Have fun, enjoy. You are allowed. You are free.

If someone continually picks a male gender in every MMORPG or game or social media or alt they have, if they spend four years as a very public male while being constantly harassed and mistreated inworld with near-daily hate mails and malicious IMs and sneering comments in the official moderated Linden forums
um, when do you think it's time for the fucking Gender Police to accept that person's chosen virtual gender, Lewis? When do you think they get to *stop* facing the intolerance you'd find UTTERLY UNACCEPTABLE in real life, that constantly flogs them with their RL gender and constantly tries to pull down their pants and "check"? Well?

No, it's not about self-identification in the tribalist, Marxist, nationalist way you have phrased it, in the tired memes of these leftist movements that never examine themselves. It's about the freedom all enjoy to express themselves at any place on the spectrum, as they please, how they please, when they please, and not accept the constructed identity of the dominant society, which in this case merely consists of "Ts" who are fiercely scrambling against "GLBs" and the rest of society for their "identity" and looking around for some *other* minority they can kick.

Ace, I think if someone makes a male avatar and has sex with a male avatar they are in that time homosexual. And what of it? If they go back to being straight in Rl, I don't even know if you have to call them "bicurious". It's part of the problem with these identity labels.

People in health work simply call it "men having sex with men" or "MSM" -- neutral, factual, non-judgemental.

Ace Albion

My point I suppose was that just because you haven't taken the step to make it "real" it doesn't change who you are. I thought I picked something that might be comparable to presenting as TG online. I used the labels I thought Lewis would understand, I wasn't trying to be perjorative with them.

I agree with everything you said in your comment, and I'm glad you wrote it.


"That's why you get gay people defending Prop 8 in California seething with sneering rage at religious blacks who didn't vote for "their" proposition."

Pick up a newspaper, you have that story all wrong. It's not "their" proposition. Why do you think they are protesting it?

Anyway, yourself, Ace, and anyone else who thinks that simply having an avatar of the opposite gender makes one TG, well, that's just nonsense.

People might have sympathy towards your "plight", Prok, had you just once said "I tend to self-identify more as a male than as a female, therefore I chose a male avatar for SL." Yeah yeah, I can hear it already - "It's none of your fucking business, fuck you, you are not a valid interlocutor, blah blah blah."

No, you make it other people's business when you demand to be addressed as the opposite gender. If they aren't satisfied with your absurd and apoplectic "BUT I PLAY A MALE TOON IN SL, ASSHOLE!", then it's wholly your fault, because the only criteria you are submitting is that you have a male avatar. And that's not enough, and I am neither FIC nor a member of any GLBT community, and never have been, so you can save the sure-to-come tirades to that end.

Elanthius Flagstaff

Let's be honest, it's only the mean little shits that feel obliged to pipe up with corrections whenever anyone refers to Prok with "he" or "him". It has nothing at all to do with GLBT and everything to do with the constant bitter harassment they love to engage in.

It really makes communication very cumbersome because in any public conversation about Prok I have to restructure my sentences constantly to avoid male pronouns to have anything remotely close to a civil discussion.



Yes, it's only the mean little shits. And if you grasp that, you should just refer to me as "he" and not get into contortions to avoid harassment yourself. Each person who does that enlarges the space for freedom that much more, and ensures freedom of speech without persecution. That's all.

Ruprecht --

Pick up a newspaper yourself, fuckface.

Everybody "gets" what Proposition 8 was about. Duh. It was bombarded to us in the news, on Twitter, in SL forums, everywhere. And it was AGAINST gay marriage and those who opposed gay marriage voted FOR it. Duh.

Those opposing it simply couldn't make their case well enough.

Let me suggest a very salient reason why: the gay community celebrates promiscuity far, far more than they celebrate marriage. Therefore, when some people, especially religious people, hear about gay marriage, they see it as an erosion of an institution, not only because people are gay, and they are intolerant of their preference, and fearful of it, but because the gay notion of marriage has proved to be a rather a flimsy one, much of the time.

When the gay community stops celebrating promiscuity so much, and is less fierce about demanding endless multiple sex partners as a "right", and demanding that the entire world pay for their health care when they become sick with diseases as a result of their promiscuity, then they might find more support from the non-gay world for their marriage. Sorry, but there it is: it's a social issue, that doesn't lend itself to political correctives.

I personally don't think the right to marriage should be contingent on moral behaviour before, during, or after marriage. I think it should simply be recognized by any couple that comes forward and seeks a binding tie. All should be equal before the law. But I'm explaining the dirty little problem of gays that they refuse every to consider: that they celebrate multiple sex partners and using people up like kleenex as a right. I'm unimpressed with their sudden howling about marriage rights when in fact they live in a context where they demand promiscuity as a right and as a public expense.

When they're done with that, they will find more willingness to mainstream them. That's all.

I merely elided the meaning of what I was trying to say when I typed that. They weren't "for" Proposition 8 obviously -- duh -- they were for OPPOSING it. THAT became their cause. Proposition 8 *was* their cause, because they opposed it! Duh! Like...that needs even correcting or restating?

It's a good example of how matters of this sort shouldn't be decided by propositions -- and yet, there was enough sentiment in this state against gay marriage that regretably, that is how it got to be decided. And gays were simply *unpersuasive* in getting religious won over -- and have grown less persuasive with every passing day, as they whine, hate, and scream.

>People might have sympathy towards your "plight", Prok, had you just once said "I tend to self-identify more as a male than as a female, therefore I chose a male avatar for SL." Yeah yeah, I can hear it already - "It's none of your fucking business, fuck you, you are not a valid interlocutor, blah blah blah."

Um, so, again, the Gender Police, and the fascist FIC on sluniverse.com, gets to decide whether to confer tolerance on people or not depending on whether they pass a loyalty test, like under MacArthyism.

So as long as they take the pledge, and announce that they or this or that in RL, then they can "pass". If they refuse to pledge, they will not be accepted.

So you know what you can do with that -- you can stuff it up your ass. It's not your business, and it's not required. I'm not required to discuss my personal life with anyone online; no matter what I do in RL, it's not relevant to SL. That's all there is too it. I don't have to pass an oral and written RL exam and be accredited by the Gender Bar to be "allowed" to have a transgendered avatar in SL.

I just have one. Because I can. And fuck you.

No one feels the need to constantly pry and see what the real life gender is of, oh, Vint Falk, for example, or any of the other parade of weirdos and dysfunctionals on sluniverse.com Nobody bothers to check.

The ONLY reason they do this to me is that they don't like what I say, and they think harassing me on this issue is an acceptable way to silence me. It's not. And I push back -- hard.

ichabod Antfarm


In a civil discussion you aren't forced to censor yourself simply to accommodate the assholery of "little shits". If someone insists on correcting "he" to "she" when speaking of Prokofy, I just walk away. They aren't worth the time nor the effort, and nothing you say, however reasonable or factual, will penetrate their dim ideologies.

Vryl Valkyrie

Prok, what a little energy sucking instigator psi vampire you are. Of course you are a vamp. Why else would you need to feed on the confusion and negative energy that you generate. One moment you are aligning yourself with the gay/lesbian community in order to somehow protect your self proclaimed rights of declaring yourself a male avatar in SL and also male personal blogger out of SL and then next you are stereotyping the gay community, lol.

Besides, we all know that what you say is total BS. Too funny.

You know exactly what you are doing, laughs. Try to make it a little less obvious next time darling.

Happy feeding. :-)


Er, I don't need to stereotype. Over the years, let me see, in real life, I've had some friends I can think of, that form the basis for my valid opinion, that is replicated by the experience of many others:

o 4 are dead of AIDS because they fucked everything on two legs, in bars, toilets, bookstores, anywhere

o 1 lives with HIV positive and keeps having multiple partners

o 3 have long-time partners they might light to marry, but every single one of them steps out on their full-time partner constantly, behind their backs, sometimes with risky behaviour.

o 2 have remained faithful and don't sleep around and are married in a state where you can do this

ichabod Antfarm

Vryl Valkyrie is accusing someone of being inconsistent with their allegiances?

*head explodes*

Vryl Valkyrie

Prok, thank you for sharing an accurate summary for both gay/lesbian and heterosexual lifestyles.

One question, the two that are faithful and don't sleep and are married in a state where you can do this, by any chance are they mormons, therefore do not sleep around outside of their union?

Just curious. :-)

Oh Prok, wipe that little smudge off on the corner of your mouth please. Thanks.

Lewis Luminos

Prok, having read your comments here, I'm happy to refer to you in whichever gender that you wish, but you've proved that the others on SLU were right all along. You're still a fucktard. Rationalism has no place in your vocabulary. I hope you have a happy new year but somehow I doubt that will happen.




Again Prok proves what a mendacious asshole he is by refusing to acknowledge a simple mistake, and instead tries to twist the error into a "truth".

Well, if anything has come of this - we can now see how horribly bigoted you are towards gays.

No Prok, fuck you. Ugly, bitter cow.

And fuck the pack of sycophants who lick up your crap on this blog.

They deserve a good kick in the ass (balls - if they had any, but oh well) for falling for your tactics.

Now ban me, Bessie.


I hardly think it's "bigoted toward gays" to point out that promiscuity in the gay community doesn't help to make the gay case for marriage *shrugs*. You want an explanation for Prop 8? You got it.

If that's being "bigoted" -- telling the truth -- um, I guess you think gays get to remain in a protected bubble and never have their shit called out like hets. That's pretty fucked, no?

I'm not really so ugly, certainly not bitter, and not a cow. What are you, big guy?

I don't ban people for hate; I merely ban them if they harass me inworld with griefing, or incite damage or do damage to me in RL. You've done neither.

But you might like to move along with the caravan : )

Gareth Nelson

"she says she does not honour DMCA takedowns"

If not, then perhaps the hosting provider does?
[email protected]

"None of these things make a person transgendered. It's all about self-identification."

Bingo: self-identification
If someone self-identifies as transgendered and is expressing a different gender from their biological one then who are you to dismiss them?

Prok has a LOT of flaws, but "fake transgender" is not one of them from what i've seen.

alexia cournoyer

You use your sl name here and are explicitly and determinedly a woman. Yet in SL you wish the same avatar name to be considered a man.

Multi-gendered perhaps, but you're not transgendered. It's just like being a furry, you may look like a dog, but it doesn't make you one.

One day hopefully you'll post just why you run these two distinct gender types for the same name. I look forward to you explaining just why you need to be called by the gender you seem to despise so much.
and here's an interesting discussion on the term transgendered http://www.alterheros.com/english/dossier/Articles.cfm?InfoID=396

paragraphs 2 & 3 under the heading why are particularly interesting I think.

I'll certainly be interested on your thoughts on gender identity and it's importance to self.

and I seriously think you might need some professional help. most people have moments of inconsistency within their ethical framework, but you seem completely devoid of the basic level of enlightened self interest or even intellectual consistency that might at least give some weight to your request for fair and appropriate treatment.

Sadly I see people treating you in the same way as you treat others.

You really can't complain about that.

Gareth Nelson

"The current accepted definition of "transgender" is as an all-inclusive term for all persons whose expression of gender is outside the current cultural expectations or norms."

Crossdressers are only part-time and yet are accurately called transgender. There's more to transgender than full-time transexuals and transvestites. Personally I experiment in both SL and RL but only part-time (i.e I would not want to be female fulltime). When i'm in "female mode" I don't care about people still saying "he" but some people care deeply about this.

Yumi Murakami

I think the reaction to the term "transgendered" is more to do with the balances involved in RL. Once in my real work I met several m2f transgendered people, and the truth is that only about 1 in 5 appear in any way convincing. The others are instantly identifiable as male. So to be transgendered IRL you really have to so badly want the experience within yourself of being the opposite sex that you will put your whole social experience in danger.

In SL it isn't like that. As long as voice isn't involved, a guy's gal avatar can look the same as a girl's without too much difficulty. And so you can play an opposite gender avatar just because you prefer the outfits or want to RP or something similar.

I suspect these people want the word "transgendered" reserved for those who are so hugely disaffected with their real gender that they will take the huge risks and sacrifices involved in RL transgendering, rather than the girls who don't want to be propositioned for sex and the guys who'd rather have a cute av to stare at!

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