Yes, I think I've about summed up what is required to put paid to all these endless arguments about traffic, about XStreet versus inworld stores, about proximity even to infohubs or welcome areas.
Get the Lindens -- with their love of transparency of economic statistics! -- to tell us WHERE and HOW sales are made in Second Life.
Number one, which sims inworld have the most sales in volume, and which have the most sales in total sum?
Number two, which works best for a sale, a teleport from search/places, a teleport from classifieds, a teleport from an avatar pick, a SLURL from the forums -- what?
Does XStreet produce more sales or do inworld stores?
Do boutiques and stand-alone stores on their own islands and parcels produce more sales, or malls?
If this isn't something the Lindens can automatically traffic, they can do things like sample 1,000 log-ons to see what sequences are made from their purchasing habits, i.e. search/places/teleport or classifieds/teleport or what.
Tell us these numbers. Then make the policies fit the numbers. For example, if search/place/teleport based on traffic sorts in fact leads to sales, then logically traffic shouldn't be removed. If XStreet is now rapidly taking over all sales and exluduing inworld stores, removing the need to pay tier or even come inworld hardly, then ponder the implications for the Linden business model.
My own absolute conviction is that the lion's share of sales now come from search/places/merited traffic sort/automatic camped traffic rejection. That's the economy. This is hated by some for ideological reasons; it's the truth, however. Next, avatar profiles lead to sales, and then classifieds. Important, but not the lion's share. XStreet? Some sales, but not the lion's share -- unless of course the Lindens step on the facts, step on the numbers, and push the inworld SHOP button that bypasses visible traffic, a public metric, and plays to a gamed, silent, invisible traffic on XStreet.
18:07] Prokofy Neva: You're very old [December 25, 2003 rez date]
[18:08] Prokofy Neva: Even older than me!
[18:08] Prokofy Neva: but I'm a midbie.
[18:08] Prokofy Neva: ok ima im my groups
[18:08] Christmas Money: 2004 is some time ago
[18:11] Prokofy Neva: I shouldn't have made it earlier oh well
[18:11] Prokofy Neva: there are always people from UK who bitch it's too late
[18:11] Prokofy Neva: now Christmas, tell me what you think
[18:11] Prokofy Neva: about this topic
[18:11] Prokofy Neva: Good evening! time for the weekly meeting on land and economy. Tonight's topic: what should the relationship of Linden Lab be to inworld businesses and communities, cooptation, community, or equal partnership? Is LL good for the economy when it plays favourites? TP from the events list sorted for DISCUSSION and DATE, *not* "in progress" or use search/places to find THAT DAMMED PROKOFY.
[18:11] Christmas Money: I think the evening time is difficult there, yes
[[18:12] Christmas Money: Ah
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: well what can you do, it's after work on the East Coast : )
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: can't please everybody
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: sometimes I mean on the weekends in the afternoon
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: SecondLie how's the edufaire
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: look at this oldbie here
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: he's older than the world itself
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: he probably has stuff in his inventory that if he took it out, it would blow up everything
[18:13] SecondLie Scribe: Education is pointless. We're all going to die. THe last thing we need to do is leave a bunch of educated corpses.
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: oh ok
[18:13] SecondLie Scribe: Knowledge is powerlessness.
[18:13] Christmas Money: I think it is a difficult conversation. To answer this, it's more than one company. Linden Lab that makes platform. Linden Lab that runs mainland estate. Which can/should things be part of? How must they be separate?
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: since when did LL separate into various companies Christmas?
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: they are still all one
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: oh we're competing with Dizzy Banjo's rez day party, oh well
[18:13] Avatar ejected.
[18:13] Christmas Money: It isn't. But has to be treated like this to avoid conflict of interest. It should be.
[18:14] SecondLie Scribe: Robot won't leave it. Damn social whore.
[18:14] Prokofy Neva: why should the mainland management be disaggregated from the rest of the Borg tho?
[18:14] Christmas Money: Because then it is not a platform. It is like managed service. The whole internet could not have been compuserve.
[18:14] Prokofy Neva: Yes it could have been, that's one of those geeky shills
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: that is -- there is nothing to say history repeats itself lockstep
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: that's a grave fallacy, and not scientific
[18:15] Christmas Money: shill?
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: just because the last Internet iteration worked that way, with those "walled gardens" supposedly 'failing" (AOL didn't fail) does not mean at all that the next iteration "has" to be this way
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: that's not scientific
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: and it's not evolution either
[18:15] Christmas Money: It may be you are correct. This was my thinking.
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: of course when geeks invoke evolution, they usually mean they want something else, not their company to evolve
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: it isn't your thinking
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: it's a meme you've heard 100 times and repeated
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: think it through please
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: Linden Lab did not opensource the server code, despite promising to be on a timetable for this more than a year ago
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: good!
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: now why?
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: and why *must* they? and devalue and grief the world?
[18:16] Christmas Money: My thinking is it is hard to compete. If LL makes the platform favor mainland, other estates are at bigger disadvantage, have incentive to abandon LL for Opensim.
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: er, how does it make the platform favour mainland?!
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: it punishes it now, and it doesn't have a plan to make it equal to islands
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: yet it tasks the mainland for handling the newbie stream
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: now that's just plain whacked
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: retention is 10 percent -- why?
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: even when the pipe the newbies directly into the arms of Desmond or Anshe or Adam as they do now
[18:17] Christmas Money: Yes. This was my point. That it should be divided. I do not say it is neatly divided.
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: but why divide "mainland"?
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: what it might more rationally be divided as
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: is "mainland and those estates who will not host their own on their own servers"
[18:18] Christmas Money: Not divide mainland. Divide LL platform from LL estate.
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: 90 percent of the people will not want to host their own, too costly, too much trouble
[18:19] Prokofy Neva: Hi Tadd
[18:19] Tadd Tigerpaw: Hello Prohofy
[18:19] Prokofy Neva: the Lindens ahve thousands of people re-renting sims who are not equipped to take on this task of hosting on their own
[18:20] Christmas Money: I do not read clearly enough for all this. Shills and memes and timetables.
[18:20] Christmas Money: Thank you for this chance. I only listen now.
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: Christmas, can you accept that every time this conversation comes up, somebody ALWAYS always, like you can set your watch by it, says "compuserve"
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: as if that solved the problem
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: so nu compuserve
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: but...if that's the case, where's all the OTHER platforms just bursting to take over the market?
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: and where's this LL, that supposedly shares your views?
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: is you are not one of them yourself?
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: where is their opensourced server code that tells us "no compuserve"?
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: could it be *gasp* that there is some OTHER model that might have to work
[18:21] Christmas Money: I did not say LL shares this view. Of dividng platform and mainland. I said I think this makes it easier to think about a difficult problem.
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: and it's not about just "shutting up and just listening" it's about accepting that people like me *do not accept your views and you are not persuasive, ever"
[18:22] Prokofy Neva: If Jack Linden opens up tomorrow as Jack Linden Mainland, Inc. What changes?
[18:22] Prokofy Neva: he still has to get the lab to agree to the same things I try to get them to agree on
[18:22] SecondLie Scribe: If that were to happen, I'd ask "Will he keep his fucking hands off of the Islands now?"
[18:22] Prokofy Neva: how he is able to perform better?
[18:22] Prokofy Neva: Lie, how does he have his fucking hand s on the island now?
[18:22] Christmas Money: I think you have a lot of decisions already about what I think. Very fast to say "people like you."
[18:23] Saffia Widdershins: Hi!
[18:23] SecondLie Scribe: He screwed with the OpenSpace/Void prices, and he'll screw with something else. Everything he touches turns to dust.
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: Christmas, by invoking compuserve and walled gardens, you have joined throngs and throngs and throng sof people on the Internet who say this over and over and over against about the Metaverse
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: can you accept that a) it's not working that way already b) it may not work that way because nothing forces it to work that way?
[18:23] SecondLie Scribe: Every policy he implements, someone gets hurt.
[18:23] brinda Allen: Lindens actually listen!?
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: how so Lie
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: who is hurt by a policy against ad cutting except 10 ad cutters extorting the platform and driving down values?
[18:24] Cocoanut Koala: hi y'all
[18:24] SecondLie Scribe: Land owner who offers hosting for vendor boxes for web catalog-only sales.
[18:25] SecondLie Scribe: Just watch.
[18:25] SecondLie Scribe: Every so-called helpful change ends up having unforseen consequences. That is the curse of LL.
[18:25] Christmas Money: I think we talk past each other, and you believe I said what I did not.
[18:25] SecondLie Scribe: I tend to talk under and over people.
[18:25] Cocoanut Koala: i didn't know Money was a last name!
[18:26] SecondLie Scribe: Moo Money the machinimist is pretty well known.
[18:26] Cocoanut Koala: oh, and you are adorable, too, Christmas!
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: Christmas, you *are* away that when you invoke "oh, compuserve" it has no meaning? because it's said 1,000 times before, and the Lindens aren't doing that anyway now obviously. Next? What does Jack gain by becoming a separate hosting company from LL? This way, linked to them, he at least is in on their decision making processes. As a separate sole proprietor away form them, he's just as bad off as all of us!
[18:26] Christmas Money: ty
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: yes this isn't Moo tho
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: it is *somebody* however LOL
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: yes there's Moo money and
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: hmmmm
[18:27] Cocoanut Koala: who, Christmas? yes
[18:27] Cocoanut Koala: is somebody!
[18:27] Cocoanut Koala: i think i will kidnap him and take him home!
[18:27] Cocoanut Koala: (or her)
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: yes, cuuuute!
[18:27] Christmas Money: This was my point. I say SL is not a platform primarily as they say. If there is also the estate in competition with private estates. This mainland.
[18:28] Prokofy Neva: Christmas, why only mainland, as I asked already? Why not islands that people do not wish to host themselves?
[18:28] Christmas Money: I use compuserve to illustrate a difference of internet platform and online service.
[18:28] Prokofy Neva: To begin hosting their own, people will have to accept an enormous amoung of expense and headaches, they have no idea
[18:28] Prokofy Neva: people don't appreciate what LL provides as a service
[18:28] Christmas Money: Yes. Today. Tomorrow, opensim based choices. These catch up in a year or maybe it is three.
[18:28] Prokofy Neva: they think of land tier as server shelf space costs, and don't factor in the service that goes with it
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: OpenSim is ridiculous, and can never compete
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: they don't have a philosophy for commerce whatsoever
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: they view it as an optional "module"
[18:29] SecondLie Scribe: There are countless asset and commerce services, sure, but some folks don't need that.
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: it's a hippy collective, stone soup
[18:29] Christmas Money: This is true. And this is very sad. Opensim will be napster universed.
[18:29] SecondLie Scribe: Yes, Stone Soup.
[18:29] SecondLie Scribe: Some folks want the stone soup. Others want the meat.
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: it works so badly now and has so much theft and reverse engineering already that it can't be viable
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: it is just kids working for free for Microsoft and IBM to scoop up their free labour
[18:30] Christmas Money: There are companies. IBM, Intel that work to set up opensim for organization use? Or is it research only?
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: if you think Jack Linden Mainland Management is viable, explain how Christmas
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: Microsoft and IBM buy servers from Adam and co for research, hundreds of them
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: that's how they make some cash
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: and they talk the opensource talk...until they can just grab it all, the usual way these big companies do
[18:31] Christmas Money: I do not know how viable mainland is. Except that it is the most visible way to get partial island. Low cost.
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: well you do realize that you can buy a partial island now?
[18:31] Orange Montagne: 'allo
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: the islands have parcels on them to be sold separately
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: of course, ultimately, the island owner can snatch it
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: but then, so can Governor Linden
[18:31] Christmas Money: Yes. I have private home. But do new users know before they leave SL website?
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: so most of the rentals business and most of the concurrent log-ons are on rentals on islands
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: yes it's all on there on the land portals
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: this fear that they are being ripped off and OMGODZORZ can't tell the difference is belied by the vast hordes that go and rent without a problem on these islands
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: yes fraud on islands is a problem indeed and LL doesn't cope
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: but then, Governor Linden's negligence is a problem too
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: Cocoanut, what do you think of the topic for tonight, the wave of the future is for Ll to coopt this or that group like USS or the shopping sites
[18:34] Cocoanut Koala: i think we're all toast!
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: do you sell on XStreet? what do you think of the takeover
[18:34] Cocoanut Koala: yes I do
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: oh ok
[18:34] Cocoanut Koala: the takeover is bad bad bad
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: toast
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: with jam?
[18:34] Cocoanut Koala: but to not continue to participate
[18:34] Cocoanut Koala: no jam, not even lube!
[18:34] Cocoanut Koala: to not participate would be suicidal
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: yes bad I agree, but all the creator fascists will love it because it increases sales for many of them
[18:34] Cocoanut Koala: one might hope that sales will go way up on XStreet
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: anything put on the front page will do that
[18:34] Cocoanut Koala: in which case, I won't bitch!
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: it reminds me of when the ystarted classifieds and you could sell windfalls of stuff with classifieds...until the thrill wore off
[18:35] Cocoanut Koala: apparently so
[18:35] Cocoanut Koala: my classified costs me 6k a week, i think
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: well there is a way to game XSt we're told
[18:35] Cocoanut Koala: and im starting to think it isn't worth it!
[18:35] Christmas Money: Will SL look more like XStreet? Or would Xstreet become more like SL?
[18:35] Cocoanut Koala: probably it will look more like OnRez
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: I would think eventually the latter
[18:35] Cocoanut Koala: which the cool kids like
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: but right now, it's not clear
[18:35] Cocoanut Koala: but I always much preferred the look and function of XStreet
[18:36] Cocoanut Koala: also we have the unavoidable Principle of Lindening
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: I think the pressure for tacky commerce will move now from classifieds to group invites, I already seeing it do that, it saturated events with non-events that are sales, people can't pay the classifieds which are now going to be even more ridiculous, so the low-end merchants are flocking to harass with group invite spam
[18:36] Cocoanut Koala: wherein whenever the Lindens Linden something, the f it up
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: I'm not sure how you'd improve X Street, but it has a zillion returns on search even using drill down categories, not sure how they'd fix that problem
[18:37] Cocoanut Koala: yeah, that is a problem
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: is your stuff on Slex Coco?
[18:37] Cocoanut Koala: oh yes, and on on rez too
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: and?
[18:37] Cocoanut Koala: well, most of the stuff
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: did your sales increase?
[18:37] Cocoanut Koala: and I always made way more sales on XStreet
[18:37] Cocoanut Koala: no they have not
[18:37] Cocoanut Koala: but then again
[18:37] Cocoanut Koala: nothing has happened.
[18:37] Cocoanut Koala: As far as I know, only they have been bought out
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: well if you read the forums some say yes, some say no, I mean the X St forums
[18:38] Cocoanut Koala: it has not been put into the viewer
[18:38] Cocoanut Koala: only the thing on the front page, which most people don't see
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: well when it goes into the viewer -- look out
[18:38] Cocoanut Koala: haven't looked at those forums in the past few days
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: then they will kill the existing engine of sales which is search/places plus merited traffic
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: and then they will really sabotage droves of merchants who aren't connected to the top of XSt
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: that's going to be awful to watch
[18:39] Cocoanut Koala: hence why I said suicidal not to go ahead and give LL a cut of your CONTENT SALES
[18:39] Cocoanut Koala: geez i hate that
[18:39] Cocoanut Koala: i loved it better when SL was our world, our imagination
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: but it's the deal they have to make with the top creators, we will give you more sales off our viewer, shut up and make sales, we will kill off all this scrappy competition like Brazilians
[18:39] Cocoanut Koala: and people came up with good stuff like XStreet
[18:39] Cocoanut Koala: and you knew they were us
[18:39] Orange Montagne: do you think the aquisition is a back door way to excuse removal of traffic in-world?
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: note that if you don't speak English, XSt is not for you
[18:39] Cocoanut Koala: what do you mean, with top creators?
[18:39] Cocoanut Koala: are they getting something special?
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: Orange, I think it kills traffic without even having to formally remove it
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: if it's true people will stop going to stores
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: I don't know, in some ways, people use XSt to browse, then they go inworld
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: there is a contingent that does that
[18:40] Christmas Money: I search Xstreet. But then I find stores from who owns page.
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: but I also see merchants moving to advertise on blogs or in the forums and then push stuff that isn't in world, only on XST
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: well a lot of people do that
[18:40] Orange Montagne: it's not clear yet I suppose... I have only marginally used xstreet or onrez
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: BUT, there is a trend to put products up that only exist on XSt
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: so that the merchant doesn't have to rez the vendors out, fuss with vendors, and pay tier under the rezzed objects
[18:40] Christmas Money: If Xstreet got a teleport button as part of merging I'm happy.
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: if the links were slurls, if your link you put in was a slurl, that might work
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: but it isn't
[18:41] Orange Montagne: it is a major step towards the 2D web however on LL's part
[18:41] Christmas Money: Traffic ordered search has always been unpointed.
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: I tried putting in those links and I got a few hits from my ads, but it's not a click thing
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: a person has to paste into the URL box
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: Christmas, but you click and teleport on search/places, that's the beauty of it
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: what do you mean "unpointed"?
[18:42] Christmas Money: Where 2Ds make more sense, they should be used. A 3D world does not need to have only 3D tools.
[18:42] Christmas Money: Traffic ordered search is without a point. It is not useful.
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: taking traffic out to a 2D site is not adding a 2-D tool to a 3-D world, it is thinning out the 3-D world and driving people away from inworld searches and teleports that strain the Lindens servers, which is one of the key reasons why they are doing this
[18:42] Christmas Money: Because it will always be camped out bots.
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: No, Christmas you are flat.out.wrong about that and again, just repeating geeky received memes
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: You aren't a merchant inworld or you wouldn't spot nonsense like that
[18:43] Orange Montagne: there is a slight IMVU-ization there too.... on IMVU as I recall all the shopping is 2D
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: or if you are, you have geeky weapons with a niche clientele of oldbies
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: the lion's share of sales happen from search/places plus merited traffic
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: just ask people who really sell stuff and really buy stuff as I do all day every day
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: do you?
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: I have thousands of customers I ask this of
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: do you?
[18:43] Christmas Money: I buy things. I do not sell. Usually if I search, it is garbage at the top of the list.
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: seriously, I am so fucking tired of this shit
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: but people skip over it
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: and many many key words
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: are perfectly
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: clean
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: and you know what Christmas?
[18:44] Cocoanut Koala: most of my sales happen in world
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: I do not like talking to Lindens on alts
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: or oldbies on alts
[18:44] Christmas Money: For me, I search usually 2, 3 down from the top.
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: if you can't show up with a presence that means something on your main, and you're here to just spout the same old bullshit we always hear from your corner, then don't bother
[18:45] Prokofy Neva: I will be back in five minutes, I am seriously fucking done with this shit
[18:45] Christmas Money: Top listings will be mostly people paid to sit.
[18:45] Orange Montagne: hmmm have you 2 met before?
[18:45] Cocoanut Koala: Prok thinks Christmas, who is a very old alt,
[18:46] Cocoanut Koala: is either a Linden on an alt
[18:46] Cocoanut Koala: or an oldie FIC on an alt.
[18:46] brinda Allen: hahaha:-0
[18:46] Cocoanut Koala: he has a pretty good nose for these things
[18:46] Christmas Money: Prokofy was upset because I sayed LL could not be compuserve and the internet both.
[18:46] Christmas Money: But this is a sore subject. Someone else had brought this up.
[18:47] brinda Allen: i think thats not the only reson
[18:47] Cocoanut Koala: I think he is upset because he figures he probably knows you
[18:47] brinda Allen: ;-)
[18:47] Christmas Money: But this is a search example. I try car in places, look what I get. [Yes, Dear Reader. Do try that! Perfectly good example making my point, and refuting his! It has very good and honest returns, and some gamed ones, and you skip over those, and the lower half of one, and certainly 2, you are past the camped ones.]
[18:48] Christmas Money: furniture, sexbeds and zyngo? [Lies. There is no sexbeds return or zyngo return under the search term "cars". Duh. Don't lie about things that you can check easily.]
[18:48] Cocoanut Koala: yes, well who are you, then?
[18:48] Christmas Money: I do not understand.
[18:48] Cocoanut Koala: who is your main?
[18:49] Christmas Money: My RL name?
[18:49] Christmas Money: This is a privacy.
[18:49] Cocoanut Koala: no, your main SL character name
[18:49] Christmas Money: I do not have one older than this!
[18:49] Cocoanut Koala: I mean, do you have one that we would know? Not younger.
[18:50] Christmas Money: I do not think this is so. I have also a human. But not coming here.
[18:50] Cocoanut Koala: I mean, is your human someone we would know?
[18:50] Christmas Money: No
[18:50] Saffia Widdershins needs to run - nearly 3 am
[18:51] Saffia Widdershins: bye all
[18:51] Cocoanut Koala: ok
[18:51] Cormac Nightfire: bye Saffia
[18:51] brinda Allen: bye
[18:51] Cocoanut Koala: bye saffia!
[18:51] Christmas Money: Still I am curious. This is all for saying LL is unfair if mainland gets a preferred treatment?
[18:51] Christmas Money: Or did I say something more upsetting?
[18:51] Cocoanut Koala: Prok gets a lot of people in these metings
[18:51] Cocoanut Koala: who are on alts
[18:51] Cocoanut Koala: and say things which would indicate
[18:52] Cocoanut Koala: they are lindens, or old residents
[18:52] Cocoanut Koala: and they often are
[18:52] Christmas Money: I am an old resident.
[18:52] Cocoanut Koala: i know
[18:52] Cocoanut Koala: the question is, are you a known old resident
[18:53] Cocoanut Koala: sometimes he feels like he is talking to someone who
[18:53] Christmas Money: No. Mostly I like to fish. But I have seen Prokofy's blog.
[18:53] Cocoanut Koala: doesn't wish to appear as their old resident self
[18:53] Cocoanut Koala: ok
[18:53] Cocoanut Koala: well that is my take on the whole thing, rather than on any of your views you voiced
[18:54] Christmas Money: I am curious. Other people thought traffic is helpful for these top search?
[18:54] Orange Montagne: why so cryptic and hiding then Christmas?
[18:54] Cocoanut Koala: what if christmas is innocent
[18:54] Cocoanut Koala: that would be terrible to go on at him about it, don't you think?
[18:54] Christmas Money: Because I am trying to understand. I think I have been confused with something bad?
[18:55] Cocoanut Koala: Well, I'm going to take you at your word that you are not something bad.
[18:55] Cocoanut Koala: But because prok has seen this happen time and again, he's a little touchy about it
[18:55] Christmas Money: Maybe that is so.
[18:56] Cocoanut Koala: in any case, yes, place in search affects sales.
[18:56] Christmas Money: But what I tried to say: I can find things more easily on Xstreet. [Again: LIES. ALL LIES. Search for "car" on X Street and get a BOATLOAD OF USELESS DRECK].
[18:56] Orange Montagne: how does cocoanut know that Christmas is an alt tho?
[18:56] Christmas Money: So I would not mind if Xstreet search replaced this search with traffic.
[18:56] Cocoanut Koala: profile reading!
[18:57] Christmas Money: I do have an alt. It is nobody popular. This is not secret.
[18:57] Cocoanut Koala: I accept that, on good faith.
[18:57] Orange Montagne: i think the question though is, why are you using the alt now? That seemed to cause the problem
[18:57] brinda Allen: and its not her first rodeo ...well ive not seen this side of prok...i have to say im impressed tho
[18:58] Cocoanut Koala: lol brinda!
[18:58] brinda Allen: i see nothing condtructive this eve...but i have enjoyed my eduactionnite all :-)
[18:58] Prokofy Neva: Here's what it boils down to, what M Linden has to have the balls to do
[18:58] Prokofy Neva: Which Philip didn't have the balls to do
[18:58] Prokofy Neva: and that is tell us where/how most sales take place
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: Back when the issue was telehubs, Philip FINALLY admitted that most sales took place at telehubs
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: that those sims had the lion's share of the commerce
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: which is why the FIC hated them
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: because the sales weren't on their remote boutique sims
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: which is why they ahd to go
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: what could we learn from that that would help us make our sales?
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: so tell us know, Lindens
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: where/how most sales are made
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: if they told us where they most take place?
[18:59] Cocoanut Koala: you mean, like on slexchange versus on land?
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: search/places? word of mouth? classifieds/teleports?XSt? let's hear it
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: let's hear the facts
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: what I've just listed
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: 1) search/places/traffic
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: 2) classifieds
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: 3) avatar picks
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: 4) IM from an avatar
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: 5) forums
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: 6) X Street
[19:00] Christmas Money: I would love to know this. People pay crazy amounts for classified. Does this work?
[19:00] Cocoanut Koala: oh
[19:00] Cocoanut Koala: yes it does work
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: and put the lie to all this shill from oldbies that it's all word of mouth
[19:00] Cocoanut Koala: a friend made me up to 5k
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: yes, their oldbies sales are form WOM, but not for some newbie who just opened a store and puts in a key word that actually *works*
[19:00] Cocoanut Koala: from 50 dollars
[19:00] Cocoanut Koala: and it made a big difference.
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: so tell the truth about it
[19:00] Cocoanut Koala: However, it doesn't make as much difference these days.
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: classifieds only help a little unless you buy the very top spots and for some people, like Stroker, that's not working
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: becaues the non-English sims are competing
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: that's why it's a bit silly to even argue over this
[19:01] Christmas Money: For me, I would buy something I saw. I see it exploring, like I looked at this plant that says it grows. Or I find pictures on Xstreet that make me curious to visit.
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: the overwhelming number of sales are concentrated not on the old North American core, and that hurts, but it's like the global economcy
[19:01] Cocoanut Koala: well, it helped me to be on first page
[19:01] Cocoanut Koala: but not so much anymore
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: that's not the lion's share of sales
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: you can't extrapolate from your own experience and endlessly amplify this subjective geek keyhole
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: you have to look at facts -- be a scientist, not a subjective loon
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: stop telling us what you THINK it is because "this is what I do"
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: look at the fucking facts on the servers
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: seriously, I am so fucking tired of this shill
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: this shill coming from YOU LINDENS and your oldbie code core
[19:02] Christmas Money: I did not say this was more than my experience. I wanted to hear others too.
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: what are the facts
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: on the servers
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: the Lindens know the facts, which is why they do not kill traffic
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: they know if they kill it, they will kill their PMLF businesses
[19:03] Christmas Money: You take my experience and again act like I said this is everyone. I did not say this.
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: No, that's bullshit
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: you obsess on process and form to distract wha t you're doing
[19:03] Draxtor Despres is Online
[19:04] katykiwi Moonflower is Online
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: you just told us what you experience, and like every fucking other conversatoin on this topic, that becomes "the norm" and "what's right" because you said it with a 2003 birthdate
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: and Lindenhood, one way or another
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: so it's bullshit
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: tell me the numbers on the servers
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: that's all
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: be a scientist
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: you say you are open and transparent: publish THOSE numbers
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: where are the sales?
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: where?
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: how?
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: I know where they are because I bother to ask all day every day
[19:05] Christmas Money: I think this is a stawsman. Maybe someone new shows up and you get angry so you can have the villain you wish.
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: but I'm happy to be enlightened further on the 30,000 other sims I don't see : )
[19:05] Christmas Money: But it's not nice.
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: no, Christmas, you are reiterating the same tired memes we've heard from the Lindens and their oldbies for 5 long years
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: and it has to stop
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: I'm getting so I refuse to deal with obvious alts with agendas
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: have the courage of your convictions, don't come on an alt
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: I'm not "upset," I just push back at such obvious bullshit
[19:07] Orange Montagne: gone?
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: it's cowardice
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: yes of course he's gone
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: because he is a Linden or an oldbie known better on another account
[19:07] Cocoanut Koala: but what if he's innocent?
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: and even if by some fluke he isn't, he spouts the exact same propaganda they do
[19:08] Orange Montagne: innocent of...
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: and then can't stand up to debate about it
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: that's really the basic problem
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: he spouts the Line and cannot defend it except by whining that he's misunderstood and somebody has "read into" his propaganda
[19:08] Cocoanut Koala: well in that case. because of course i didn't understand the propaganda anyhow, and came in late.
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: Cocoanut, I will publish the transcript
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: but it works like this
[19:08] MrNoCal Honey is Online
[19:08] Hydra Shaftoe is Offline
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: "Linden Lab cannot host the entire Metaverse as a proprietary company"
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: "Like Compuserve could not host the entire Internet when it began"
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: "it will have to opensource and get out of the way and allow lots of opensource script kiddies to have griefy stealy opensource words"
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: *worlds
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: "and be able to cash in on consulting fees becuse they will be so hard to use like Linux and Croquet"
[19:09] Cocoanut Koala: oh
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: for all we know, that was the Croquet guy again who is Pixeleen
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: that could well be
[19:09] Cocoanut Koala: true
[19:10] Cocoanut Koala: well i defer to your instinct
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: or it could Andrew Linden or who the hell knows
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: I don't have instinct
[19:10] Cocoanut Koala: but i keep having this TEENY PART that says
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: I have questions and I ask them
[19:10] Cocoanut Koala: ok , experience then
[19:10] Cocoanut Koala: and answers to question
[19:10] Cocoanut Koala: but i have this teeny part that says, what if he is innocent?
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: well have your teeny part Cocoanut?
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: he is not innocent if he spouts those memes
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: he comes by them likely from being in those lobbying groups by membership, as Linden or oldbie
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: but if he is NOT
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: what of it?
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: it's the same old tired bullshit
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: we're supposed to roll over and opensource everything and give up value everywhere and that leads to the Lindens and oldbies running it ANYWAY
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: have you not noticed that???
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: we have this marvelous *cough* opensource separate thing
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: run by...who?
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: Adam Zaius?
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: like...this is something different than the Lindens?
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: like...this is independent and better and not part of the same fucking mafia ruling everything?
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: if they disagree how to divide up the spoils among themselves
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: that doesn't take away from the fact that it's the same gang screwing everyone else
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: do you not think Adam will only be too happy to sell himself out like the shopping sites?!!!!
[19:12] Cocoanut Koala: well, i will understand it better when i read the transcript
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: well no you may not
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: but whatever
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: he's saying the same tired argument about traffic we've heard 8 million times
[19:13] Crap Mariner is Online
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: that it is gamed by camping and has to be axed
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: he isn't someone who shops for Christ's sake
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: he flies around on his fucking alt and buys a gun
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: this is not serious
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: I'm tired of the conversation being dominated by that crap and I will fight it to the hilt, because they will seriously remove traffic now, or make it redundant
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: don't you care, Cocoanut?!
[19:13] Cocoanut Koala: yes
[19:13] Cocoanut Koala: i don't want traffic removed
[19:13] Cocoanut Koala: bots or no
[19:14] Cocoanut Koala: a person shopping can pretty easily determine about the bots
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: eveyrone goes to page 2
[19:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: on page 2, find Bill Stirling, who is excellent, no bots
[19:14] Cocoanut Koala: I hope not! Last i looked i was still on page 1!
[19:14] Cocoanut Koala: OMG
[19:14] Orange Montagne: that should be obvious once you teleport to one of those junky places
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: PondLife, excellent, no botws
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: under "prefab"
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: in search /places
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: not search/all
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: which is a total mystery
[19:15] Carl Metropolitan is Online
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: I'm no. 2 on search/all, and that's some kind of weird fluke the Lindens probably manually tweak to try to make me shut up about traffic, I'm honestly boggled by it
[19:15] Cocoanut Koala: lol - that would be funny if they did!
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: how can somehow who has the 10th of sales or classifieds or customers of Anshe be in that slot?
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: well of course they do!
[19:15] Cocoanut Koala: I should start criticizing them more!
[19:15] Cocoanut Koala: a LOT more!
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: I don't game picks, I don't have traffic bots -- what's it all about?
[19:16] Cocoanut Koala: i dunno?
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: if you put in a keyword like "ranch" you'd be on the first page in search/places
[19:16] Cocoanut Koala: which one is it that is at the top of search?
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: with only 117 traffic you can get to the first page on that key word
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: the key is key words
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: I have newbies with nothing who put in a good key word with 800 traffic and get sales
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: it works, and the idea that "search is broken" is one of those geeks memes
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: I just find all that stuff such a mental straitjacket
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: it is not based on field data or experience
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: it's based on subjective whim
[19:17] Cocoanut Koala: what is the one you have that is high?
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: rentals
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: is in search/all
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: I'm not in search places unless I have some exotic key word or foreign word
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: so I'm in "Tibet" for example
[19:18] Cocoanut Koala: oh
[19:18] Cocoanut Koala: well I'm on first page (or was)
[19:18] Cocoanut Koala: using words like "house" and "home"
[19:18] Cocoanut Koala: and houses, and homes
[19:18] Cocoanut Koala: and cottages
[19:18] Cocoanut Koala: and prefab, and prefabs
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: well Cocoanut, you had the great idea to force the Lindens to publicize the solutions provider list and make opportunities supposedly open
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: what about the community partnerships?
[19:19] Draxtor Despres is Online
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: I should publicize their list of criteria
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: it' sridiculous
[19:20] Cocoanut Koala: well they took that list away, i think
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: I told Robin Linden that Governor Linden herself doesn't even meet this criteria!
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: for receiving newbies
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: they did???
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: I thought it was on the Second Life Grid page
[19:20] Cocoanut Koala: i thought so?
[19:20] Cocoanut Koala: maybe im wrong
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: let me check
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: the horror
[19:20] Orange Montagne: you have to script up the registration API don't you?
[19:20] Cocoanut Koala: you and me is here alone
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: http://secondlife.com/solution_providers/listings.php
[19:21] Cocoanut Koala: i dont know what that means, script up the regis etc.
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: I think they've probably scrubbed this list somewhat
[19:21] Orange Montagne: like, you have to integrate the registration process somehow
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: yes that's one requirement
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: which I'm trying to get them to drop
[19:21] Cocoanut Koala: oh! orange is still here too
[19:22] Blackheart Batz is Online
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: this is where they FIC it up tho Coco: http://secondlife.com/solution_providers/success/listings.php
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: the list doesn't display as nicely as before
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: you now essentialy have to look up a name or a city
[19:23] Cocoanut Koala: oh. well what I did was get them to have a developer's list,
[19:23] Cocoanut Koala: rather than hand things off lkike wells fargo
[19:24] Cocoanut Koala: and they did, and it used to be listed,
[19:24] Draxtor Despres is Offline
[19:24] Cocoanut Koala: then it went away
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: here's what you get for being a corporate account
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: http://secondlifegrid.net/spt/virtual-world-support-programs
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: well the community criteria is too steep, 24/7 help to greet newbies, proof your community has grown in 9 months
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: it's a lot of stuff, and in fact Governor Linden doesn't meet it on her welcome areas, that's the irony
[19:24] Orange Montagne: hmmm
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: I hear on the grapevine that other groups are now jockeying to get a deal like the USS
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: but which ones? how?
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: I now have the perfect "yacht" for MarkTwain's club
[19:26] Cocoanut Koala: i don't know
[19:26] Cocoanut Koala: but i certianly imagine they would try!
[19:26] Cocoanut Koala: it's the linden way!
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: isn't this perfect for Blake Sea?
[19:26] Draxtor Despres is Online
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: bass boat
[19:26] Buck Spinnaker is Online
[19:26] Orange Montagne: lol suzanne vega is still on that list....returns...
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: OMG yes that's outdated'
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: well does anybody really look at that page?
[19:27] Cocoanut Koala: nobody looks on that page i bet except the people on it!
[19:27] Cocoanut Koala: hahahahahaha
[19:27] Cocoanut Koala: well i gotta get back to work
[19:27] Cocoanut Koala: it's been an . . . INTERESTING meeting!
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: why?
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: why bother?
[19:27] Orange Montagne: it's been lovely Prokofy and Cocoanut do have a good evening
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: if you are doomed
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: lol
[19:27] Cocoanut Koala: cause nobody looks at that stuff
[19:28] Cocoanut Koala: see you later prokygator!
[19:28] Orange Montagne: gnite!
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: why do people go on bothering? it's interesting they do lol!
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: nite
-- Instant message logging enabled --
[19:32] Prokofy Neva: coward
[19:32] Christmas Money: I cannot share my experiences. You try to turn it into something evil if I do. Why do I stay?
[19:33] Christmas Money: You don't ask if I think something. You tell me what you think I would say. Then you argue with pretend persons.
[19:33] Christmas Money: It's not nice.
[19:37] Prokofy Neva: No, you recite hackened, unexamined beliefs and you are challenged on them, deal with it
[19:37] Prokofy Neva: You've invoked every single hackneyed meme in the metaverse
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: are you so unconscious as not to realize that?
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: and I'll tell you what's not nice
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: being a Linden and not having the guts to come as a Linden
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: or being a famous or known oldbie with references and not having the guts to come on that main
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: that's what is not nice
[19:38] Christmas Money: Tell me what are the things I said that are beliefs? I would think about these.
[19:38] Prokofy Neva: you don't play nice, I don't play nice
[19:39] Christmas Money: But tell me one. And let me think and reply before this lecture.
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: Your belief that web 2.0 or 3.0 "has to be" like 1.0 and there 'can't be" compuserves. Religious belief.
[19:39] Christmas Money: Otherwise, it is not a conversation.
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: Your belief that "traffic is gamed and "has" to go" -- religious belief
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: not based on field experience or data
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: I've told you at least 3 of your unexamined religious beliefs/memes
[19:39] Christmas Money: I did not say it has to be the same.
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: deal with it, I've said now about 4 times, deal with it
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: You invoked compuserve
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: we all know what that means
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: stop it
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: think for a change
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: or are you just not very bright?
[19:40] Christmas Money: I use this to say the difference between platform and only one service.
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: Look, you're thikning in prepared facile memes
[19:40] Christmas Money: You do not stop to ask if I even think SL should be a service.
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: You think AOL "failed" as a walled garden, like compuserve, with services on the Internet, because the Internet had to "open up"
[19:40] Christmas Money: Or if I think SL should be a platform.
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: but you've invoked compuserve
[19:41] Christmas Money: Yes, I mention compuserve. This is a service. LL claims to be a platform for many services.
[19:41] Prokofy Neva: do you or do you not believe that compuserve and AOL failed at Internet 1.0 ? yes or no
[19:41] Prokofy Neva: yes or no
[19:41] Christmas Money: Maybe it is better SL should be just a service.
[19:41] Christmas Money: AOL was very successful. But it did not change to stay relevant as the web changes.
[19:41] Prokofy Neva: ok stop right there
[19:41] Christmas Money: So in the end it does not stay successful.
[19:41] Prokofy Neva: who has the messaging service used by every single connected teen online in the entire world?
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: tell me what's *not* successful about owning the entire teenage population of the entire WORLD's messaging
[19:42] Christmas Money: Microsoft and Yahoo share this. AIM is very popular for America I know.
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: that's why you can't be reasoned with
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: because you think AOL failed, when...it didn't lol
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: you think, oh, it can't be like compuserve, LL can't be a service and there can't only be one, and it can't work becaues it didn't back then
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: but...what if you are wrong?
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: what if you are wrong the way I just caught you being wrong about AOL?
[19:43] Christmas Money: Still being around at a much smaller size is not a success when the rest of the market is grown very large yearly.
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: for instance
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: er, what other messaging system is used by every teenager on the planet?
[19:43] Christmas Money: MS Messenter/Yahoo has bigger share, and continues to swallow AIM user.
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: see you can't be reasoned with, because you can't look at commerce normally
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: no, that's not true
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: but what's operative really for this debate
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: is that both of those PROPRIETARY WALLED GARDENS own the world's messaging
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: so you are full of shit then see, with your ideas of "how it should be"
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: and 'what failed"
[19:44] Christmas Money: But for this "debate" you also did not listen. I did not say even that LL should be making a platform.
[19:44] Christmas Money: LL says they make this platform to build services on. Then they have a service too. Maybe the platform should stop and it should be only a service.
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: No, I listened and heard the exact smae hackneyed thing I've heard from every single Linden oldbie and coder oldbie since day one here, and it's bullshit
[19:44] Christmas Money: But you don't ask if I consider.
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: not science
[19:45] Christmas Money: You still do not ask.
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: You couldn't even make the case for why mainland or estates should be a separate service
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: you made this statement, but couldn't back it up at the slightest questioning
[19:45] Christmas Money: I try to say more but you do not stop talking.
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: I asked "what about those who won't host their own?" you couldn't answer
[19:45] Christmas Money: You do not ask questions and stop to talk.
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: no, you can't take questioning of your religions
[19:45] Christmas Money: I answered that.
[19:45] Prokofy Neva: no you didn't
[19:46] Christmas Money: I said today there were not good choices. But this changes as opensim grows. In one year, or three year, it is easier.
[19:46] Christmas Money: And then I ask if IBM and Intel help people.
[19:46] Prokofy Neva: Even I as a non-geek know there is such a thing as "software as service" so your forking of these into two doesn't have to be, in the modern world
[19:46] Christmas Money: Because I don't know. This is why I ask.
[19:46] Prokofy Neva: OpenSim is bullshit, up and down
[19:46] Prokofy Neva: but you won't have to listen to me say this in 2 or 3 years, it will be eaten or gone
[19:46] Christmas Money: I don't know this. I would listen about opensim if you tell me without accusing.
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: You can't take challenges to your religious belief.
[19:47] Christmas Money: I come hoping to learn and meet people. But you are only mean.
[19:47] Christmas Money: No. I ask you to tell me things.
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: What you demadn is not "listening" but "acceptance of my dogma" -- sorry, no sale
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: I did
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: I said look at AOL in a way I bet you never in your life ever thought of it, eh?
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: You think of it as /fail
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: /fail closed wall dead, etc. etc
[19:47] Christmas Money: I think of it as a failure because as a business it failed.
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: but...it's not in the way you imagine
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: But it didn't fail as a business lol
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: you wish!
[19:47] Christmas Money: It became much smaller, not much larger. At the same time, other internet companies grow largely.
[19:48] Prokofy Neva: who owns the messenging, again?
[19:48] Prokofy Neva: again, you need to look at facts, not ideology
[19:48] Prokofy Neva: commecial facts, market share, markets, people, customers
[19:48] Prokofy Neva: not just what you imagine
[19:48] Prokofy Neva: like in SL, where the sales are, not from your "exploring" and "search all" but where they really are, search/places/traffic
[19:48] Prokofy Neva: that apparently scares you
[19:48] Christmas Money: I look up AOL stock to see if I am wrong. This takes me a moment.
[19:49] Prokofy Neva: I look up AIM messengers downloaded to how many computers
[19:49] Prokofy Neva: : )
[19:50] Prokofy Neva: Another hilarious thing you are doing is affecting this posture of a quiet, thoughtful, reasonable oh-so-intelligent fellow
[19:50] Prokofy Neva: but you are like a religious born-again yahoo in fact, the kind of person you hate in RL
[19:51] Christmas Money: AOL is worth only 9% of what it is worth when the internet was small. Other companies are many times larger. This is why it looks failed.
[19:52] Prokofy Neva: How many people on the planet have AIM downloaded to their computer?
[19:52] Christmas Money: Very many. If you think success is the number of users, it is successful.
[19:52] Prokofy Neva: if AOL is worth 9 percent of what it was, so what? Er, is Linux now a big seller ROFL
[19:52] Christmas Money: If it is the health of the company, then it is not successful.
[19:52] Prokofy Neva: and the real story of the Internet is in ebay, amazon.com and other commercial sites
[19:52] Christmas Money: I think LL tries to be successful as business.
[19:53] Prokofy Neva: your belief that the Internet only game out of a pocket protector at MIT and grew because of opensource geeks is a distorted, mangled religious sectarian belief
[19:53] Christmas Money: That is not my belief.
[19:53] Christmas Money: I think it grows because it becomes good for many business.
[19:53] Prokofy Neva: You've spouted every single Hail Mary around this belief, invoking compuserve, the loss of AOL stock, the need to separate platform and service, the need for competition and blah blah blah
[19:53] Prokofy Neva: look at yourself
[19:54] Christmas Money: Maybe you should stop and listen to what I believe.
[19:55] Christmas Money: I believe if LL really wants to be a platform that supports many service companies, it has a problem. Here it needs to be treated as two companies and to be sure it does not give LL service a benefit over other services. Otherwise it is not this platform. But I do not say it should be a platform.
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: Your constant restating of the need to be two companies doesn't add up to anything because they aren't doing this and haven't done this and don't plan to do this
[19:55] Christmas Money: I believe it is a mistake and that to give away as they did is why opensim now worries them.
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: if they did, it would not solve our problems
[19:56] Prokofy Neva: It doesn't worry them. They will buy it. Adam has always been in their pocket, he's practically Philip's blood kin.
[19:56] Christmas Money: I say they need to do this if they really want to be a platform for other businesses.
[19:56] Christmas Money: Adam is opensim head I think?
[19:56] Christmas Money: This I don't understand. Why would LL help Adam?
[19:56] Prokofy Neva: Ll has always been hugely kind and protective of Adam and helped him make his first million
[19:57] Prokofy Neva: they have always given him every benefit and favouritism and ultimately, will buy him out or take care of him in some way
[19:57] Prokofy Neva: he is not the threat to them
[19:57] Christmas Money: It seems very bad for a business to make its own competitor.
[19:57] Prokofy Neva: it's the things around Adam wanting to eat him up like Microsoft that might be a greater threat
[19:57] Christmas Money: So it's a fake competitor?
[19:57] Christmas Money: Maybe this scares away other competitors if it already looks busy, but the competitor is a friend?
[19:57] Prokofy Neva: but your idea that there "has to be" a platform for all kinds of businesses -- well, uh, that's kind of like the way there "has" to be a platform for document production outside of Word
[19:57] Prokofy Neva: and...there isn't
[19:58] Prokofy Neva: who uses uh, Linux in their office or home to write documents?
[19:58] Christmas Money: The platform is not my idea.
[19:58] Prokofy Neva: Why would virtual worlds be any different?
[19:58] Christmas Money: I say this: if LL wants it to be a platform for competing businesses, then there is conflict of interest with the service.
[19:59] Christmas Money: It becomes like MS if MS could control the price of what other software is allowed to charge.
[19:59] Prokofy Neva: but you are spouting nonsense
[19:59] Prokofy Neva: it just bought two shopping sites, only to kill off one and coopt the other
[19:59] Prokofy Neva: it doesn't care about conflict of interest, it buys such things out, and revels in them
[19:59] Christmas Money: Yes. So it does not act like a platform.
[19:59] Prokofy Neva: it already controls the price of the cashout for every single business on the platform
[20:00] Prokofy Neva: the platform thing is merely your geeky fiction, and their shill for a time
[20:00] Prokofy Neva: even they have backed off from using that term
[20:00] Christmas Money: So LL should not buy these things. Or LL should stop claiming to be a platform making.
[20:00] Christmas Money: I do not understand shill. You use this word before too.
[20:01] Prokofy Neva: well look it up in the dictionary
[20:01] Christmas Money: I did. And it talks about advertising or an auction.
[20:01] Prokofy Neva: anyway, I'm tired of validating your alt cowardice
[20:01] Prokofy Neva: a shill is a lie, a fake advertisement
[20:01] Christmas Money: So I am liar because I disagree with LL?
[20:01] Prokofy Neva: you are mouthing the same lies of all those of your type
[20:01] Prokofy Neva: and you are an obvious type
[20:02] Prokofy Neva: and I'm done talking to alts, bye : )
[20:02] Christmas Money: You are confusing.
[20:03] Christmas Money: I think it is a coward who will not talk meaningfully. If you try to quickly turn someone into a pretend person you can use practiced argument on instead of thinking.
[20:03] Christmas Money: You do not talk to a person about their thinking. You talk to them about what you wish they would say to give you easy target.
[20:04] Prokofy Neva: No, Christmas, once again, for the last time: you keep repeating the same tired bullshit. You keep thinking in terms of "platform" or "compuserve", you cannot accept that LL is a proprietary company that needs must have a proprietary world, and that's fine. let somebody else make another one.
[20:04] Prokofy Neva: Done.
[20:04] Christmas Money: Here is your mistake though.
[20:05] Christmas Money: I said LL talks about being a platform. I said LL needs to act different if they want to be this platform. But I also don't think this platform is good.
[20:06] Christmas Money: LL should put the platform idea way if they would buy anyone who starts to do something interesting to block other people making things on this platform.
[20:06] Prokofy Neva: No, once again
[20:06] Prokofy Neva: you don't listen
[20:06] Prokofy Neva: you just spout
[20:06] Prokofy Neva: 1) LL is not a platform 2) LL doesn't even talk about being a platform anymore 3) those who still do have an obvious agenda to want it to be something they can hawk for free under their own consulting services
[20:07] Christmas Money: LL talks about it being a platform in the Philips inteviews. I do not know if M does this.
[20:07] Christmas Money: Philip
[20:07] Christmas Money: Even recently this is so.
[20:07] Prokofy Neva: find the word platform here, on some place besides the Firefox label: http://www.secondlifegrid.net/
[20:08] Christmas Money: try this searching http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Ablog.secondlife.com+platform&btnG=Search
[20:08] Christmas Money: Add "2008" to the search for recent
[20:08] Prokofy Neva: Philip is irrelevant, not in charge anymor
[20:08] Prokofy Neva: anyway, I'm tired of your alts and your games, bye, done.
[20:09] Christmas Money: Yes. I say I don't know if M is like this.
[20:09] Christmas Money: It seems we only disagree on things you imagine I would say. I am happy we agree on things I actually said. The rest is in your head.
Having nothing to do with this topic (other than the intro), I had the pleasure to run across user: 'a Apple' whose rez date was sometime in 2002. Guy from Europe. I felt like I was looking at a legendary flying Pokemon or something. (yes his first name was 'a')
Posted by: Eric Rice/Spin Martin | 01/31/2009 at 12:26 AM
Yes, a Apple actually exists, you have to use search/all to pull him up. He was the first Alphabet avatar, long before Alphabet Lindens! He's from Croatia evidently. God knows how he got himself on to SL in 2002 lol.
There's a famous oldbie Candie Apple from 2003 who puts on her profile that she had an even older account from 2002.
Amazing to think of.
You *should* grapple with the content, Eric, you're smart. You're capable of thinking beyond all the set little geek pieces. You've the arguments a zillion times. YOU probably think TOO that walled gardens don't work and you need some spiffy opensource thingie. But even you would be given pause, five years into this thing, when you see no viable competitors, when you know that OpenSim is a sham, and when there isn't anything else, and even this is possibly more fragile than we know.
So opening its server code, or making it pure platform, isn't the answer. It won't work.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 01/31/2009 at 12:43 AM
Looks like Christmas had mature search on. Zyngo and sex beds do come up in the first hit for "car." The second hit is already useful, though.
Posted by: Brian | 01/31/2009 at 01:29 AM
No, I have mature search checked off too.
I'm looking in search/places for the word "car" or "cars"(he said "car" in our chat).
There is no Zyngo whatsoever.
There is something called "Paradise Pleasure Sex Beach" but it has a car park in it, which, of course, is a very American make-out kind of scene. So it does have cars.
He could uncheck the mature if his eyes are soiled by such things, which have put something legitimately in search, as they do have car parks.
If "Greece Digital" with its 90,000 traffic seems botted, skip to the next few. They are authentic places with cars in them, even if botted. If you fear botted up places and want authenticity, do what everyone using these lists does without even thinking: curse down more, and get to the lower part of the first page, then page into the next pages.
Plenty of car shops, mainly of the police sort, but still, of all kinds. "Cars" would work better. Unchecking mature would remove the sex beds.
And please, don't be stupider in SL than you are out on Google.
Type two words, like "car shop". Duh? Much?
And find a nice, neatly-sorted readable useful non-botted list that has car shops.
Honestly, you people should be slapped, and slapped hard. Stop lying. Stop lying. Stop lying.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 01/31/2009 at 02:19 AM
One type of shopping that is related to the profile picks mentioned is one I use often: right-clicking on objects to find the creator. I find an equal number of things this way when exploring as I do knowing a type of product I want and searching. I don't know how widespread this is but I'd hope other people know to do this when they see something they like.
Posted by: Clubside Granville | 01/31/2009 at 03:17 PM
Oh, absolutely, I constantly do this and tell others to do it. The thing is, the right-clicking to find the creator is nearly the same thing as the following of a profile pick, because the only way you can then find a store of that creator is if he has his own store in his own picks or classifieds. Sadly, not everybody thinks to do this, and sometimes you have to IM the creator and ask them where their store is if you can't find it in search/all by their name.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 01/31/2009 at 03:33 PM
I think you're using different search/places mechanisms. Using the places tab brings up Zyngo and sexbeds, using the places drop down from the first search tab does not.
This actually exemplifies that the newer search system works better than the old one.
Coco's position is interesting, I'm very reluctant to buy a building if I can't see it inworld, pictures don't do justice to buildings. However it's useful to be found on Xstreet so people can then TP to these merchants, but inworld search will surely still be more beneficial to Coco.
As for the magic box going, if the Linden's put a tick box similar to show in search on prims, such as "Show on Xstreet" they'd force all Xstreet listings to be available to look at inworld, they'd also cause a furore with users but it would protect the concept of Tier being the backbone of the business model.
Posted by: Ciaran Laval | 01/31/2009 at 05:04 PM
Ciaran, I'm talking about search button with places tab -- there isn't any other way to get places.
yesterday, the "Zyngo" was not showing on the first page. Today, it is. I went to this parcel, Within one step of the landing, there was a booth with a vendor selling motorcycles and cars. You or an ancient tekkie like "Christmas Money" may find it repugnant that a mall like this sells sex and Zyngo and cars all together, but the cars are indeed here.
There look to be about 6 bots in the sky in a row.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 01/31/2009 at 06:10 PM
The first Search tab has a places dropdown, so yes there is another way to get to places. It's odd how I and two others saw the Zyngo and sex beds and you saw no sign of them if you were just using the places tab.
I don't find a mall selling sex repugnant, heck my tenants sell adult items, I have a few into Gor for a start, nor do I find Zyngo repugnant, but I do feel that the newer search is superior.
Posted by: Ciaran Laval | 01/31/2009 at 07:04 PM
Ciaran,
When you fetch up SEARCH ALL, you get go underneath it to the tabs that have PLACES.
And if you use the SEARCH button at the bottom of the screen, it pulls up *the exact same set of tabs*.
It's not like it's a "different" places if you pull it up from SEARCH ALL than it is if you pull it up from SEARCH. It's the same places.
And no, I looked at it over and over again, even with "mature" checked off, and there was no Zyngo last night. Today, there was.
This could simply be a matter of when it updates. It shows up on one search on the first page, but then more traffic on other spots pushes it down.
The newer search is not superior, Ciaran. Only geeks looking at this problem through the geek keyhole think that, because they imagine that the best search is always the one that spits up the most data. That's the geeky way to think of things.
But it's not. SEARCH ALL on cars is a mad mess, like on any word. You have to have a lot of patience to scroll past not "camped places" but individual avatar names that could be using that word, or their picks that have a description on the back of it or even some town hall transcript. It's a God-awful grab bag of jumbles.
There is nothing "better" about it until you finally fight your way through the thicket of crap, and find a store you do want to get, then you can see what's individually for sale in that store -- and go through the annoyance of first searching that sim's name, and pulling up the map, then plugging in the coordinates for that object, and hitting search again (there isn't a way to type both name and coordinates at once into the map, that never works, one of the major annoyances of SL).
Meanwhile Search/Places is far, far, far cleaner. Use the right key word or WORDS and you get cleaner results, even allowing for a 1st or 2nd gamed spot. This is proven again and again and again and again by real people using it this way to make purchases. If you don't want people to buy easily with the best form of search that gives them not only a cleaner set of results in PLACES and also gives them a direct teleport to that place with that key word, then fine, Ciaran, be right, be geeky, but be poor and don't make sales.
That's all.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 01/31/2009 at 07:15 PM
Oh FFS, Prok, when you fire up Search there's a tab called places. Fire up search, you have All, classifieds, events, Showcase, land sales, PLACES, people, groups.
The PLACES I highlighted in caps is the one that's full of crap, yes it will give different results.
If you go to search all and select places from the dropdown, you get less crap results, hence it's a better search system. There's nothing geeky about this, it's an easy observation to make.
Posted by: Ciaran Laval | 01/31/2009 at 07:26 PM
Once again, Ciaran, you are hilarious. And For Fuck's Sake right back at you.
The PLACES tab you get from SEARCH ALL, and the PLACES tab coming up from SEARCH, they're uh...the same PLACES.
They aren't "different" places with different results. It's not like "one turns up crap" and "the other doesn't. The PLACES in both places are the same PLACES. Exactly the same thing. Can you grasp that? Test it.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 01/31/2009 at 07:30 PM
I have tested it, are you having me at it?
The top five results when I go to Search and use the dropdown for places using the term car are;
Car Wash Region
Car Wash - The Waiting Room Lounge
Mercedes Benz - car auto driving racing luxury car vehicle
Car Wash - Shopping
Car Wash - Streets of Car Wash.
Note, lots of places about cars.
When I use the places tab, the top 5 results are:
Greece Digital
Carducci Guns weapons motorcycles
The Best Skins Shapes - Skins Shap
!Police Shop Uniform Army
Paradis Please Sex Beach.
Note, not many obvious results for cars.
Different results though, without any shadow of a doubt.
Posted by: Ciaran Laval | 01/31/2009 at 07:44 PM
CAR is the name of a rifle. Thus weapons stores show up when searching for a CAR.
"The first carbine version of the M16 assault rifle appeared under the name of CAR-15 in 1965, an was intended for US Special Forces who fought in Vietnam."
I'm not at all surprised searching for a specific rifle would turn up weapons stores.
Posted by: Ann Otoole | 02/01/2009 at 12:03 AM
No, Ciaran, you must have an SL that simply works differently than mine for some reason, perhaps with a different viewer, or you are doing something different than I am, because I'm getting the exact same results whether I use either method.
So let me go into more detail.
If by "drop down menu" you mean going to the top menu bar, and selecting "edit" and then "Search" and then "car" I get this four at the places tab:
Greece
Carducci
Best Places
! Police
But nobody ever does it that way, so I can't believe you're talking about that way -- but it merely pulls up the exact same interface.
If I go to the upper right-hand corner of the menu bar, where the little magnifying glass is, and I press on the magnifying glass WITHOUT putting a search word in it, I get a tabbed menu. I wouldn't call that a "drop-down menu" but merely a tabbed menu.
On it is is Places. Here, I type in "car" and I get the exact same four I just got the other way.
OR, I go to the bottom of the screen, I push the SEARCH button on the lower middle menu bar. In fact, when I pull it up, it has retained the search results from my last method of accessing them.
So for fuck's sake, as you would put it, I put in the word "car" again and I get...drumroll...the exact same four results again. And that's not a surprise, given that this is the exact same tabbed menu. It doesn't change because i've accessed this same menu from three different methods.
Mature is checked off.
I have Second Life 1.21.6 installed.
I have Windows XP on this machine with these results, but on another machine I have Windows Vista -- same exact thing. I have SL *for the PC* downloaded.
Now, I bet the issue here is that you have a Mac? That would be the typical geeky male thing. That's the only thing I could figure could be rendering such different results -- and actual different interface from different software.
AND I've done a fourth thing, which I distinguished from the very, very beginning. Which is NOT NOT NOT using "search/places/traffic sort" but the grab-bag of SEARCH ALL.
Here's what I do:
1. Go up to the upper right hand corner with the magnifying glass
2. Type in the word car -- *Note I am not using places, I am using SEARCH ALL, the giant, retooled new SEARCH ALL the Lindens made.
3. This opens up the tabbed menu, but PLACES IS NOT USED. It gives me results, and here are the results you're speaking of:
Car Wash
Car Wash
Mercedes Benz
Car Wash
But that's not what I've ever been talking about. Because that's using the new search all, not the search places. BTW, if, while in this "search all" I go press places and research, I still get the same Greece, Carducci, etc.
And again, my point is that SEARCH ALL works for some things to clean out the traffic-gamed sites, but it can also be a huge stupid grab bag of stuff.
For example, look at what the hell I've gotten from this really stupid geeky SEARCH ALL. I've gotten three times here *a region named Car Wash*. It's some kind of RP place or build like the 1950s. It isn't a place likely to have *cars for sale*.
Keep scrolling, and what other JUNK do I get that is USELESS FOR SHOPPING. I get a fucking WIKI about cars and vehicles, like I wanted that crap when I am SHOPPING, Ciaran?
Keep going, and I get an avatar named car Baxter. And so on and so forth. SEARCH ALL is a big grab bag of places, avatars, wikis other extraneous Linden junk they threw in there. IT IS USELESS FOR EXPLORATION AND SHOPPING. It is only good if you want to get, say, EVERYTHING there is to get about "Prokofy Neva" or something.
So once again, Ciaran, YOU ARE NOT USING SEARCH/PLACES 'DROPDOWN' WHEN YOU USE SEARCH ALL. That's the fucking problem. Try to grasp that. They are DIFFERENT interfaces with DIFFERENT principles.
Look carefully at what you are doing, step by step. You will see you haven't clicked on PLACES at all. IF you do from "search all" you will get Greece, Carducci.
I dunno. I rest my case on this. Geeks are retarded. They cannot help us with our issues on search and shopping. They refuse to listen to the truth of what is happening, and keep looking through the geek keyhole, and keep in fact LYING about the results, whether out of ignorance or deliberate malice.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 02/01/2009 at 03:55 AM
Once again, to simplify this completely, because you are stupid:
YOU ARE NOT USING THE SEARCH/PLACES TAB AT ALL CIARAN.
YOU ARE USING THE GRAB-BAG OF SEARCH/ALL WHICH IS NOT USEFUL FOR SHOPPING BECAUSE IT RETURNS TOO MUCH EXTRANEOUS CRAP.
Go step by step and be honest about what you are doing, and you'll see there is no "drop down of places". There's merely the results of your search/all search! Press on the places tab and get the same Greece, Carducci that I've just pulled up and replicated again 3 ways.
Be honest about what you see, Ciaran, For Fuck's Sake. ALL is what is highlighted on your SEARCH ALL magnifying glass box search results. PLACE is not highlighted because it wasn't clicked. Click on it, and see DIFFERENT FUCKING RESULTS.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 02/01/2009 at 04:00 AM
What are you talking about? I used the category drop down on search all and from that menu I selected Places. So I'm searching, places.
So yes, there is very much a dropdown of places. Stop being silly about this.
If I don't select the places category and leave it on the any category the results include people, groups, wiki entries and events. So if I just want places returned I select, from the dropdown category option, places.
So there are two ways of searching places, I have no idea why you're even debating this when it's clear as day that I'm right about this.
Disagreeing with me that using Search/All and then selecting the category places from the dropdown menu is a superior form of searching is fine, but arguing with me that it doesn't exist is plain silly.
Posted by: Ciaran Laval | 02/01/2009 at 07:33 AM
Ciaran, you are impossibly dense, stubborn, and stupid.
There isn't any "dropdown of places" in "search all".
What you are doing is SWITCHING FROM searc/all to PLACES on the tabs. Duh!
Picking places can be done 3 different ways -- but you are switching INTO search/places which searches DIFFERENTLY than search/all.
I really have to marvel once again how stubborn-assed dumb you geeks are.
You are SWITCHING from search/all to the places tab when you search that way.
I've told you there are three ways of accessing search/places. You've merely picked one of them, and somehow mistakenly believed that you are in "search/all with a dropdown".
But you are in search/places.
Once again, Ciaran, when you get the results Car Wash, etc. you are using ONLY SEARCH ALL. You aren't using Search Places. Any idiot can see that just checking it inworld on the user interface.
If you then use the places tab, you get Greece, Carducci, etc.
And what's most operative about this entire discussion is your inability to admit that a) search/all produces lots of crap and b) search/places in face produces pretty good results, once you either a) chose better search words and phrases or b) simply skip over the first few gamed spots.
Seriously, it is just so FUCKING DUPLICITIOUS to keep claiming you are in "search/all" when you have *moved out of it* into the places tab, and then are searching in search/places.
Go and look at what you are doing. If you have the results "car wash," you are simply not in search/places, but in search all .DUH. Be honest, for once Ciaran, instead of stubborn and pig-headed.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 02/01/2009 at 07:50 AM
Prok are you honestly telling me that you are incapable of selecting the places category in search all? Are you honestly and truly telling me this that you cannot see the categories?
I am not switching to the places tab, when I use the places tab, as I told you, I get different results. When I use the places category from the dropdown in search all I am searching places in a different way and hence get different results.
Search all has categories, the default is any category, go take a look. I am not making this up.
You're being completely ridiculous over this. There is a places category in Search All.
Posted by: Ciaran Laval | 02/01/2009 at 03:47 PM
If anyone ever needed proof as to why we need to get rid of the geeks in SL because they not only block progress but lie about the facts, Ciaran's posts are it.
SEARCH/PLACES is not a "dropdown" of SEARCH/ALL. It returns DIFFERENT results, whether you come to it through the edit button or the search button or the search all box.
The results you are getting with "Car Wash" come from SEARCH ALL. They do NOT come from SEARCH PLACES. Go inworld, track what you are doing, and be honest about this, you asshole. Stop pretending it's MY problem, when I have gone in, replicated this now 4 times, to see if in fact you have some kind of point.
You don't. Your head is deeply up your ass.
The returns you claim are from some putative "dropdown of places in search/all" is in fact ONLY the search/all returns.
Tab to search places, and you will get DIFFERENT results.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 02/01/2009 at 04:32 PM
Yes that's what I said from the start, if I use the places tab, I get different results than if I use search all and then select the places dropdown, I posted the different results earlier.
It's not my fault you can't figure out that if you search for places you're not searching all, hence why there's a category tab where you select a bloody drop down that lets you search places and hey, surprise surprise the results returned are for places.
You are being completely bloody idiotic over this. If I don't select the places dropdown from the categories in search all I don't get results that are just for places, I get people, wiki entries, events, groups too.
So if I just want to search for places, I select, from the category drop down, places.
Stop being so bloody pigheaded.
Now if I do search all by the way I still get the car wash results, but scan down a bit further and if you haven't used the places dropdown from the category tab you will see the Car Wash group and a wiki entry on page one, if I select "Places" from the dropdown and then click search, they don't appear, because they're not places.
I never said it was the same as using the places tab, I said it was different and generates different bloody results.
Posted by: Ciaran Laval | 02/01/2009 at 09:39 PM
Ciaran,
I used to have *some* respect for your, despite your self-interested, pigheaded posts constantly pouring the water on your own mill with your geeky understanding of what is good for the rentals biz and the economy. You've consistently been counterintuitive in ways that make no sense unless you see it as part of the geek keyhole "no business but my business" common theme of SL.
But now I have ZERO respect for you. NONE.
Because you are utterly dishonest here, because you are doubling back, and lying about what you have obviously said and which the record here absolutely shows.
I can't for the life of me understand why you'd do some an obviously stupid thing, but vanity and the vain desire to cover your ass creates such illusions, I guess.
You did not say any such thing from the start. You claimed that in SEARCH ALL box, there was a "drop down" of "places".
But there isn't.
Search with PLACES, or moving to PLACES from search/all, produces the same goddamn results, as any child can see.
um, you're the pighead here, unable to grasp that SEARCH/PLACES exists apart from SEARCH ALL in three ways -- and indeed most certainly is searching:
1. from the edit menu
2. from the search button with the PLACES tab
3. from the places tab when coming OUT of search/all
Duh.
And duh, you get everything -- the kitchen sink -- in SEARCH ALL. Which YOU claim is better merely because the Lindens do not have trafficed/gamed sites showing up first in it. That's why you were flogging it -- and even claiming you got a further refinement of it from search/places.
But you most certainly DO NOT get any further refinement from this "pull down". You merely LEAVE search/all.
And it's just as if you had accessed PLACEs from the plain SEARCH button which is merely a direct to the TABs. Duh.
If you select places, you get what you'd get had you bypassed SEARCH ALL *completely*.
You most certainly DID NOT say it was different. You're saying this NOW after being called on your bullshit 10 times.
You claimed search/all with "the places pulldown" was giving you "car wash" and that was better.
I pointed out the utter bullshit and incorrectness of this 3 times.
The record shows it, stop being an asshole.
The reason "they don't appear" in places is because it's no longer search/all, but merely the old search with the places tab.
The Lindens maintain TWO search functions, in part because we all screamed bloody murder at their notion of SEARCH ALL which is deeply fucked in many ways -- too much clutter, too many objects, etc. But they don't care. They are enamored of the Internet of Things, and not of the Internet of People.
Fuck them, and fuck you. People use search/places because it's a WORLD and it has PEOPLE in it.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | 02/01/2009 at 10:28 PM
No, again you're wrong and I can't for the life of me grasp why you can't see that there's a places tab in search all, that lets you search places.
I've said this all along, you on the other hand are consistently ignoring the fact that the category dropdown on the search all page contains a places category that lets you search places.
I've said this from the start and only your sheer bloody mindedness is preventing you from acknowledging that this dropdown menu exists.
Now if you'd bother to go to search all and look to the left of the tick box to include mature content you'd notice it says any category, and if you click on the box you get a dropdown menu and there is an option for....places.
So yes, you can search places from search all and yes there is a dropdown, so no I wasn't lying, and no it doesn't mean clicking on the places tab, it gives different bloody results to the places tab, which I bloody well posted.
If you select places from the dropdown of course you get further refinement, because it only returns places, it doesn't return wiki entries, events and groups.
So keep calling me a liar if it suits your ego, but you're wrong about this and you know it.
Yes I do think finding results for car wash is better than finding results for Zyngo when I search for car, but we can agree to disagree on that as it's a matter of opinion, disagreeing with me on a matter of fact is churlish in the extreme.
Posted by: Ciaran Laval | 02/02/2009 at 01:25 PM
Search > Places Tab, for car, no quotations around the word, mature search on gives me:
Police Shop
Soul Skins & Shapes on Brasil Shopping
Carducci Guns Weapons Motorcycles, etc.
Paradise Pleasure Sex Beach
Racers Island Raceways
Using Search All, places category:
Car Wash Region
Car Wash, The Waiting Room Lounge
Mercedes Benz
Car Wash - Shopping
Car Wash - Streets of Car Wash.
Using Search All, any category:
Same results as search all, places category.
Posted by: Cristalle Karami | 02/03/2009 at 01:01 AM