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Saffia Widdershins

Just a quick point - you're repeated Ezra's comment rather than giving Captin Bacon's.

I can certainly see the Lab never again wanting to get to the point they came to with Emerald although, when they finally woke up to the problem, they handled it rather well, I thought, so that in the space of a couple of weeks people who had been proclaiming that the Lab would take Emerald from their cold, dead hands were hastily wiping all traces of it from their machines and setting up Phoenix.

Hamleton Brow

Oz 'Judge Judy and Executioner' Linden

Desmond Shang

I smell something actually a bit more sophisticated here... quite possible that I'm wrong, but, this move would lay the groundwork for certain significant steps forward.

* * * * *

Some things enhance the world, and other things break it, from a purely experiential viewpoint. Yeah this is one of those crazy California 'marketing optics' and 'looking through the lens of' arguments, but... hear me out. Consider the grid from an experiential, immersive point of view.

What makes that experience:

Walking. Driving or flying with vehicles. Inworld stores with 'stuff' in them. Spatial connectivity. Some kind of 'range' that one can hear, and/or see. Walls. Physics. Distance. Consequences to actions. Town hall meetings of any group great or small. Rarity. Scarcity. Mystery. Things money can't buy.

What breaks this experience:

Flying like superman mosquitoes. Changing the time of day to whatever we like. SLMarketplace dragging you out of the world and obliterating about 30% to 40% of the need for land inworld. Teleporting. Hypertext. Real world economics. The SL "arcana" of groups and group chat. The unlimited "dollars = more" possibility.

Obviously, not everything can be reconciled, nor does everyone wish it to be. Not everyone wants to play a game. Not everyone wants to be that immersed.

That said, if you can pick apart the world and lay out *everything* like a dissection with a few clicks ~ the very product for sale here is diminished greatly. And that product isn't land or prims. Those are just means to a far greater end.

* * * * *

The game seller's path to fame and fortune is a very different path forward than the one we are on now. Games have certain hallmarks ~ they are much more simplistic than real life, and literally any idiot can ultimately 'grind' their way to success via repetitive tasks.

Grinding away, rather than being the bane of games, is in fact a game's salvation. One doesn't need fantastic art talent, or technical skills, or mastery of business. If you have those, life itself is a game, and you don't need World of WishItWasMeCraft. Nah, you just need to mouse click to success. A lot. Maybe a few twists to it, but not much. The creative inventive types will always find a way to 'beat' the grind ~ pay their clan mates to do it for them, or h4xx0r it, or whatever. But Joe Average... all he needs to do is click. Prestige, social status, all that is 80% canned. Oooh, look, he's got the *red* helmet with the wings now! And so on.

Now, I'm not against that at all ~ I see grinding as almost a sort of gaming 'social welfare' way forward, where anyone (literally, ANYONE) with enough mouse click determination can come out on top. Few may ever need to fall back on it. But for those with nothing else, it's a way.

* * * * *

Anyway, back to the point ~ in order to wrest control of the world and create things like scarcity, and the constraints which define a world... you have to not just let anyone do whatever they want with the world's data.

I still have a lot of issues with the v3 client, it's not a diamond in the rough, maybe a cubit zirconium in the rough at best ~ but it's getting there. The tyranny of the Corporate Client View is about as bad as the tyranny of the "we'll do what we want with your data" crowd. But I'd expect it to be a better shepherd because only corporate interests (at this stage) can truly resolve the tragedies of the commons that can occur. Like say, if the grid doesn't make enough to pay the bills. Corporations can do something about that. The open source community generally shrugs that sort of thing off, and just waits for the next Big Thing paid for by fresh venture capital. Unless of course, you are still perfecting your VRML models and not messing with that newfangled SL stuff.

I could be wrong there too ~ the opensim community *could* come out of nowhere to produce a far better product for far less. We'll see if they do but I'm not holding my breath; right now the significant population is still very much on the main grid.

elizabeth (16)

i think 2.k also has something to do with the new "experience permissions" as linden have named them

a TPV that somehow circumvents or adapts autoteleport and/or autoattach in a roleplay/quest/game setting. the TPV user gaining an advantage over the linden viewer user breaking the shared experience of the setting


will also catch derendering of mesh clothing on other avatars. linden seems to be saying if our viewer doesn't allow this then a TPV cannot do this either. the shared experience being another avatar has chosen to wear clothes and a TPV is not allowed to provide a capability to break this

Prokofy Neva

Elizabeth, but currently, if you aren't using viewer 3, and you use 1.23 or 2.x, you won't see mesh. Surely they can't mean "mesh as shared experience," that's impossible to demand at this point.

The "experience permissions," however, that baffles me. They put them in to work on their Linden Realms. And they said that they were going to turn over to developers those new features they developed for that game. So what's up? I thought they established some sort of registry of people who get to develop with those features. Of course, that introduced a new -- and undesirable -- aspect to SL where some devs are more elite than others. This wasn't just a pro-forma questionnaire like the mesh dev one -- this is more elaborate.

so is the point that TPV devs cannot put that stuff "for the masses" into their TPVs, only the Linden-approved devs can? Or?


...Contrary to popular myth, messages don't cap *if you attach them to an email and have them go into email*. Duh! In fact the system even says "messages capped" when you log on, but in fact they all have gone into email. Duh! I wish more people would get this....

Plain wrong, as easily can be verified. Whether you have email-forwarding on or off, there is a message cap, once that is reached, bot messages and deliveries are cut off. It doesn't take that much effort to verify this (just a script and your account, not even an alt).

But since neither you nore LL will let facts get into the way of a good opinion (or a simple "IWannitSo!") I guess that;s a moot point. As, consequently, is the whole post.

cube inada

the California way. Incapable of giving one a direct answer.

old news.

Prokofy Neva

I've tested this many times. The messages go to the linked email. A script deliberately forcing them at a high pace might make it "cap" but normal odd pacing of messages and objects don't. This is one of those SL myths that geeks help perpetuate precisely with literalisms like yours.

Masami Kuramoto

I consider the new policy a major improvement. Although I've been an open source advocate for quite a while, there was always something about third-party viewers that bugged me. Which is probably why I never used one.

Cost efficiency through crowd-sourced development was what Philip Rosedale had in mind when he opened the viewer's source code to the public. The idea was to enable residents to contribute patches to the main viewer and do some of Linden Lab's work for free. That model has worked well for other projects (Linux, Blender) and it did work for Linden Lab, at least in the beginning.

But then some people realized that developing shiny additions to the viewer would elevate their social status within the community. So instead of contributing to the main viewer, these individuals created and maintained their own alternative branches and implemented features that broke the world for users of the main viewer. Linden Lab no longer had the final say about what they wanted to see on their platform.

Some of Emerald's features served no purpose other than establishing Emerald as a brand. Viewer tags were the most obvious example. The harrassment mentioned by Oz came in the form of Emerald shills identifying non-members by their viewer tags and persuading them to switch to "a proper viewer" and to join the Emerald camp. By increasing Emerald's penetration on the grid, they also increased the developer team's capacity to influence Linden Lab's policies. The whole thing finally turned into a personality cult when Fractured Crystal, after leveraging Emerald's popularity to conduct an illegal denial-of-service attack, was portrayed as a misguided genius. In fact many of his followers, when confronted with the evidence, developed a full-blown Stockholm syndrome, even suggesting a conspiracy by Linden Lab against Emerald.

Coming from a game development background, Rod Humble seems to understand the importance of a shared experience. Someone has to set a standard that defines how the virtual world looks and works and how its data is to be interpreted. And in Second Life the only party that has the authority to do so is Linden Lab.

Prokofy Neva

Masami, that's interesting, but I wonder how something Fractured Crystal did with the viewer tag display (which I agree is merely like gang colours) would affect something *now* -- given that he left long ago, and the Lindens only got on to this policy about the viewer names *now*. So something new must have happened? or?

Amanda Dallin

Maybe LL was just waiting until their own viewer was able to compete with the TPVs. I know many still don't' like it but there isn't any doubt that the Official viewer is much better than it was a year ago or even 6 months ago.

elizabeth (16)

Prokofy, what linden is saying is that they decide what the exceptions are to the rule of the general shared inworld experience. not a TPV developer. is a managerial requirement/decision this and not a development one, even though Oz Linden is fronting it publicly

while we can point to all kinds of seeming contradictions; the official viewer has heaps of them in itself, shadows, sounds, etc. it even has derender of avatar mesh by the blocking function; there is a managerial component to all of these and is a sound reason for the exception to the general rule in each case. they are not contradictions from this pov. they are exceptions and linden has stated that they decide what these are and no one else. is a prudent position for any company to take in this situation imo


on management processes: LSL developers are fully subject to linden processes when they want new features and changes that reshape or redefine the inworld experience. this policy brings TPV development firmly into line with this

TPV developers sometimes see themselves on a par with linden developers. technically this is true. managerially is not true at all. is an overreach when people do think that through their own coding efforts they can make management decisions in this regard. quite often though when people do write code in these environments is not malacious or anything like that. they just make something cool, put it out there, and not think about much else at all

elizabeth (16)


can understand why linden decided on a dev registration for the new "realms" experience permissions system. i just don't see the need for it on a permanent basis

when linden was first making the "experience permissions" on the realms, these permissions seemed to be quite wide open in terms of user consent, in how they were then applied. obvious that is part of the alpha dev process. get it to work first and then look at the constraints/exceptions necessary in the beta and final release stages

me and lots of other people through the alpha "linden realms" testing stage pointed out this and that. is how it goes. linden take on board and in the beta release on the beta grid much of the this and that has been taken into consideration. linden have put lots of thought into it and done some good work since. if linden continue this way, and is no reason why not, then by the time these new kinds of permissions make the final release then they will be perfectly fine for anyone to use. in the same way as any other LSL functions


is inconsistent to create two classes of programmers. the realms dev registration is actual the reverse of the management process principles linden have now established for TPV developers. is all kinda semantic, esoteric even, this point for some people. i just think its an important principle to observe. a permanent exception is made because there is a sound reason in a particular ongoing circumstance that can not be reconciled satisfactorily in any other way

as a precautionary measure, registration is perfectly understandable. same with mesh upload registration in that then initial circumstance. as temporary control mechanisms, precautionary measures are fine. when they become permanent fixtures though then they create more problems than they solve when they are inconsistently applied

elizabeth (16)

much of what i have said above is just a restatement of the argument. some people get annoyed when i do this but oh! well. when we dealing with a company like linden then we need to do this sometimes. linden will say enough already when it is enough already, and i am not discouraged by people who are not lindens in this


is same when we want something from linden. i just keep asking straight out. over and over and over until linden either says yes or no, or does something that means either. try to make the best case i can when i do ask

when linden do say No then i am cool with that. just cross it off my xmas list and ask Santa Linden please for the next thing. when a new Santa comes along then i go back to the top of my list and start over (:

Cinder Roxley

"Masami, that's interesting, but I wonder how something Fractured Crystal did with the viewer tag display (which I agree is merely like gang colours) would affect something *now* -- given that he left long ago, and the Lindens only got on to this policy about the viewer names *now*. So something new must have happened? or?"

Just a guess, but perhaps with the growing popularity of tpv's which either have not applied or have been denied approval into the official tpv directory in the wiki they want to severe that method of advertising for rouge or LL unrecognized/unaccepted viewers and viewer devs.

Masami Kuramoto

Check out this post from a Phoenix/Firestorm developer:


Fractured is gone, but the chest-pounding attitude of the Church of Emerald never faded.

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