So I'm minding my own business, trying to fix up my lots after I had to transfer a whole build from Bellisseria after canceling my premium account on that alt, and moving Neural Networks, a gallery with a BBG stamp terminal, to my Mainland community of Silva Beach. It was one of a number of cost-cutting measures after the announcement that sales tax will now be imposed, which for New York City, where I live, is rather steep, 0.875%. So for a $175 Mainland sim tier, that's an additional US $15.13 for a total of $190.13, and for the premium account of $11.99, that's another US $1.06 for a total of $13.05. I had a lot of other chores to do, including getting my store ready for Fantasy Faire and last minute alt-testing of products, boxing up, etc. Even so, I view this area as a respite, it's where I set home and put my workshop, which moves around from sim to sim depending on how many prims I have, but I just bought my neighbour's land that she let go for $1.5/meter; in fact most of the hind land on this sim I got for 0.2/m or 0.5/m, after renting and then buying the limited waterfront for $7/m. That's a rare low cost in SL for waterfront facing two open Linden seas, i.e. without any land or builds ruining the view or hampering the sailing, so I jumped on it when I was forced to leave Dicycla.
I told this tale somewhere on the forums, but in a nutshell, it involved having to back out of a sim where I had been for five years, with tenants who had been there as long, one of whom was a tier donor. What happened was one of those sudden "forces of Nature" in SL where land that had been owned by a neighbour for many years, and was water/waterfront, was abandoned, but rather quickly turned over and put on the auction, before I or others noticed it. You have to constantly maintain vigilance for this sort of disaster, which happens more and more. Most of the time I don't attempt to bid on the auction, as land barons bid up every auction just to keep up the price of land for themselves. There is no longer any transparency on the auctions as there once was, so you can't see who is doing this and boycott them or name or shame them. There's no limit to how many auctions you can take part in if you have the tier (participation costs nothing) so you get some unscrupulous landlords even without the tier who just undertier their groups temporarily to take and flip the land before the Lindens can send them a warning to fix their tier. There's a race to the bottom on prices now as a few notorious land barons want to "stay on top of the list".
So Whitney Linden makes up an auction parcel out of scraps of abandoned land on the sim, curiously leaving the one parcel I abandoned, a 1024 in the middle that never rented. She makes a "C" shape or bracket around my tenants' land and makes the amount non-standard -- not an exact 1/4 sim tier, but just over that limit by about 384 m2 or whatever. That means you had to have half a tier available, or tier up an entire half a tier, to accommodate it, so it was particularly pernicious.
Anything can happen in these cases, from no bids to GTFO ugly builds or land cutters, but in this case, an end user bought it. This was hopeful at first, but then we saw that she was a BDSM working girl who wanted to put a castle either on the ground (she put out a rezzer and left it for weeks) or the sky -- but most relevantly, she put the parcel on "no access" which is of course her right. She is not the problem here. You could appeal to her to take it off -- especially when the other sim diva on that sim *also* has "no-access" -- creating a total wall around my group parcels -- but in my experience, requests like that either get ignored or draw more hostility.
I waited to see if this situation might go away naturally -- often such disasters do, in 30 days. It didn't. So I sold some land, abandoned the rest, and moved to Sylvia, which I found after scouring up and down the shores in Heterocera. I first rented a parcel to see if it was "too good to be true". Maybe Tiny Empire appeared every night in the skies lagging the sims or making it impossible for people to come on it. Maybe there was another brothel or club or who knows what. But all was clear, so I bought at least 1/4 of that sim eventually, and when a German fellow bought the other waterfront and put up a tasteful mixed build of residences and shops, one of which I rented to be neighbourly, I figured this was as good as it gets. Eventually, I got about half or more of this sim, filled up the waterfront with re-located tenants (to whom I had to give a free month, which is my standard practice for moves I request), then I had to try to put cottages/skyboxes/parks, etc. in the rest. Gradually I filled up the cottages and some of the skyboxes; there is more still to rent. In my experiences of the last two pandemic years buying a sim or half sim and trying to get it paid for and in the clear, it took a year.
So I was patiently waiting for this to improve, which requires more work, rearrangement, re-decorating, advertising, etc. and also consolidating the other lots when all of a sudden...there is a big swipe at this idyll -- of all locations in SL! -- from out of the sky from Operation Mainland's CEO and chief cook and bottle-washer Feorie Frimon, which appears in a thread since eviscerated and closed by a Linden, and says this:
It's very clear from every statement here that she doesn't believe such old builds should be kept; no one ever goes there, it doesn't look good, we shouldn't keep it just because it's old -- and then she makes a bid to the VP of SL to "repurpose" this land. She couches it in the cloak of Lady Bountiful as something "for the greater SL community". But we all know what this is about -- yet another forums power play, calculated or casual (it doesn't matter), that will impact others with unintended consequences.
I say "unintended," because I don't believe in some conspiracy theory, that Feorie, conniving with Patch, has decided to swoop down on the great old Linden build directly across from my virtual idyll in Sylvia, a sim I chose not just for its clutter-free sea, but for its protected road and deserted old Linden build -- where my tenants and I have been peacefully existing since December 2021.
I will be goddamned if I am going to let some forums power-play -- deliberate or accidental -- force me off my land -- force me to move due to ruination of the view -- and if you think that is far-fetched, you missed the chapter with all these outrageous SLRR enthusiasts trying to force me off my land in Grote -- land that I bought fair and square from a land flipper who purchased it after his winning auction build, because the Lindens themselves sold their own right-of-way. They do that. Rarely. But they do.
So...This is the first I've heard of Patch encouraging JIRA proposals for public land projects -- ugh. I don't know what the provenance of that is (perhaps someone knows; it could be in the Rockcliffe College interview recently given at the educators' conference, which contained a lot of useful information on Linden intentions last year -- I haven't worked all the way through it). It's not just that I'm banned from the JIRA so "can't play"; it's that I think the JIRA is a terrible, terrible way to try to solve the issue of public land projects because it's undemocratic and totally controlled by Lindens and their coder fan base. If the Lindens are going to hand out land projects, they need to make a separate proposal procedure through MonCierge Group or some other venue outside the JIRA; the JIRA, ever since Oz removed the vote and the relatively open debate, is not a venue for even the limited democratic discussion you can have in this authoritarian virtual world.
And Feorie is looking out for her business, which involves buying abandoned land for $1/m, decorating it, then re-selling it for some low cost, as a perceived "public interest". Of course anyone can buy that land for $1/m themselves and develop it and live on it themselves without paying double that amount to a dealer, but "think of the children" -- newbies or the unskilled masses supposedly don't know how to put out those grainy Skye cliffs that look like birds shit on them (although I see tenants without many skills manage this just fine all the time). She builds for "the public" and yet... It seems her build on a cliff with very exposed, non-private modern cliff homes, no sky platforms, and helicopter pads on every single house (lol) did not rent. I took a look at it, worked the numbers, and saw that it could not pay for itself even with my cheap rents. I liked the sim, which had an old Linden railroad station which Feorie may have her eye on "repurposing" -- but it also had neighbours with aggressive orbs or no-access. It was ultimately a bad buy; not sure what happened to it.
I should note that my dealings with Feorie have always been cautious as I saw from the get-go that she was an empire-builder and very aggressive about trying to take over certain sectors. This is all too common in SL and you don't know who you are dealing with. Is this really a working middle class soccer mom in the suburbs in the MidWest somewhere, which is what she implies? Or is it a male programmer posing as a female? Or is it a team of people? You just don't know. It seems hard to believe one person can script, do graphics work, and do aggressive advertising all by themselves in the hard business of the Mainland, but maybe it is possible, even with a full-time job "managing coding projects" -- she says she is not a coder, but manages those who do. OK, well, that's fine, but when somebody forms an organization called "Operation Mainland" -- like it's a war -- like Putin's "spetsoperatsiya" in Ukraine -- and then urges people to join it -- but we didn't get to make the rules for it, I and others are naturally wary. I tried to point out to her that if she just gained experience actually trying to rent, not sell, land, she would see that it's not easy to have a rule like "all skyboxes must be above 1500". On her mountain perch, how did she plan to organize that?! There's only so much sky, and you can't have people within chat distance certainly, as they want privacy, but also preferably out of the view at even a bare 216 draw. So last year I wrote to her my support for her idea in principle -- who doesn't want to see Mainland improvement projects? -- but said I didn't want to join, and no, I didn't want to take her logo with her Good-Housekeeping Seal of Approval to put on my land -- thereby lending my rentals to her advertising campaigns. Nor did I see others who wanted to do so, when I discussed the project with other dealers. It's very hard to build trust and cooperation in SL; you don't do it by fiat.
Some time later I proposed 3 possible points of agreement -- a plan of action around land cutting mainly along the lines of the Arbour project of years ago. This wasn't an organization; it was a campaign or a task list. I explained it at length, and like every single conversation I ever had with her in world, she ghosted. She dropped off line or just went AFK and never responded. Everybody does that in SL; RL comes first. But when you can't even muster an asynchronous response on such an effort at cooperation, you're not serious. OR you want to impose only your own brand/operation/ etc on others and not collaborate. That's fine -- but I'm not a joiner of projects where I don't see I have any input.
Feorie has busily gone around sucking up to the Moles (that failed); ranting and raving because they wouldn't put her stamp game on to their land (well, There Can Only Be One, as I've explained about the Lindens repeatedly); starting this or that "turn-key community" and having people suddenly back out in suspicion as they feel she is copying them or muscling them in some way; going to Bay City to make a play to Moles and FIC types (and not sure that was successful) etc. Meanwhile, her admittedly (in some ways) superior stamp game continued along with mainly the participants doing all the work of promoting it. When I organized a stamp in her game with a gift on the resident-run Linden infohub we developed years ago, she ignored me -- I explained several times to her that if she was trying to get her stamps on Linden/Mole land, here was one way to do it (and I made other suggestions). And IM about this was ignored and later comments ignored. Oh, well, people are busy, I don't look for affirmation from other people in SL on the Mainland, it's mainly a cut-throat and even toxic environment. I figured I would just have some loose collaboration with this person, who seemed more intelligent and reasonable than Asadora, the crazy lady with the Mainland roads group.
I was wrong.
So here's the whole thread, you can judge for yourself. I think it's clear that all of Feorie's answers are hysterical, exaggerated, and incendiary. She uses the method (popularized by Saul Alinsky but actually Leninist in nature) where you find some point and exaggerate it and throw it back and your interlocutor, and attempt to take some element of their reputation for which they might rightfully be proud, and then in some distorted fashion, make it seem as if they are either contradicting themselves or going against their own values. That's ridiculous, of course, because we can all read what she said, and see her rather manipulative doubling back to claim she meant something else. Sylvia Tamlyn called that out effectively; her second post very aptly making this point was removed for no reason at all.
I don't accept Linden moderation as valid; I think they suppress any dispute they think makes them look bad or makes their friends look bad and this is no exception. They also have a principle which I think is antithetical to building a civil society that you can't criticize any individual or company by name in SL. In handing out the inevitable warnings and closing the thread, Harley claimed it was "too bad this couldn't be a friendly and productive discussion" and chose to cast it as a "private dispute" while failing to realize that it was a legitimate debate about the very nature of who decides what the public interest is, and how. Who is the public of the Mainland? The coder of the obnoxious pods who threw the Lindens over on the bid to take over the grid with that spam -- because the Lindens love free load tests? Her fan base who occasionally like to slum it on the Mainland? We didn't elect our "Governor Linden" -- it's a company, not a democracy, understood. But we didn't elect other residents, either.
Since when is the JIRA -- the JIRA! which was silenced and subdued by Oz and lost all semblance of democracy! -- a place where you make proposals and have them discussed in good faith? Did Patch really say this? Did he say this merely to get rid of pestering do-gooders, sending them to a place they will never return from? Or is he hoping to put complaints about the Mainland to an end by siccing certain of his friends on old Linden builds or any sort of fallow land 'for the commuuuunity"? I have no idea. That Feorie doesn't represent that community is a sure thing, and it doesn't take me to point that out. I've actually defended her and questioned other people's mistrust of her in multiple conversations, because I tend to take projects that prove themselves as viable at face value, even if the person performing them is obnoxious and their politics loathsome to me. For example, Draxtor's politics are repulsive to me, yet I will always speak up and recommend him as the person journalists should talk to (as distinct from SHamlet), and his videos as a very good representation of SL, even if company-paid propaganda in some part.
But I won't be doing that any more for Operation MyLand. I picked up all my kiosks from the "Forever Tourist" stamp game and I expect people will get the idea that these sites are removed and they will eventually be removed. I notice I hardly get visits from them anyway. Like anything, it requires constant upkeep and updating and I don't want to bother. Not when there really is any benefit from it. It's not like the BBB stamp game has much of a benefit either. And by "benefit" I don't mean click through to a sale. I mean just some sense that the site gets interaction and use. I never see that in fact from Forever Tourist, as much as I see that overall, it is a more open and more capacious system than the Linden-approved BBB game. But the reality is, I see the BBB visitors, especially in Bellisseria interact more -- they take gifts, they write in the guest books, they find the hidden treasures, they hang out. There is some of that from Forever Tourist, but not enough to bother with. I would have bothered if I felt its owner wasn't disruptive and pursuing an aggressive agenda at the expense of others. I no longer see it that way.
So judge for yourself, here's the thread. BTW I have always had cordial relations with the original poster and I appreciate her forest preserve and rentals. But she is persistent in trying to get all the land on the sims she already occupies for her project. I reluctantly sold her land in Campanula that I had in both rentals and my land preserve, mainly because they had no tenants. I don't know if the tenants went over to her or where they went, but usually if someone wants to buy my land, and I don't have tenants on it, I don't get in the way of them paying me money rather than me paying money in tier that isn't reimbursed by rents LOL. Still, I kept one parcel that had a long-term tenant. Then it was back again with requests to sell my land, they hadn't paid. A new tenant came along. No sooner is that box in the "grace period" then the call comes again -- don't I wish to sell my land? And I sympathize with people trying to put together a sim. Been there, done that. Still, I want to cling to my very high mountain parcel, tenant or no. I suspect what is driving the OP is some parcel that never has any owner show up that has been there for years that she would like to claim if it could only be truly "abandoned," and she can't figure out why it isn't. Somehow several things got garbled here in her perception:
o the notion of "grandfathered". There is only one kind of "grandfathering" in SL and it is not related to the Mainland at all. It's too bad I didn't make that point. ISLANDS were grandfathered at the price of $195/tier (there was a saga to tell there, too, as the Lindens first tried to give only their special friends the heads up to buy those sims before they raised the price and put out new sims); now they are $229.
o the Charter accounts -- this was 4096 of tier given for life to oldbies like Cristiano Midnight and other domineering personas of the old forums. But there aren't that many.
o 512 and 1024s that I believe were given as freebies -- to people like Robert Scoble, let's say, industry colleagues, journalists, etc. Likely it's this third category that is the culprit for the "unused land". Somebody mangled the concept of grandfathered islands and Charter accounts which in fact don't apply most likely in a later sim like Campion or Campanula.
So here's the thread which now is a fraction of its former self:
Tue, Apr 12 at 5:51 PM
Mar Scarmon
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- Resident
A friend told me that many parcels on the mainland are "grandfathered", meaning nobody pays tier on them and the listed owners may be long gone from SL. This makes sense to me because in my many years of exploring mainland SL I have noticed quite a few parcels with antiquated builds, that never ever change, and never seem to have any activity on them. I have also sent notecards to many of these owners inquiring if they were interested in selling and I never get any response. This leads me to believe the owners have long since departed SL, but then I wonder who is paying the tier? Apparently grandfathered parcels were given away to certain people in the very early days of second life.
Do any of you have any insight on "Grandfathered" mainland parcels??
thanks
Marz
Sylvia Tamalyn
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- Resident
- I said what I said
Many years ago, there was something called a "lifetime account". You could buy one and not have to pay any monthly fees, and were given 4096 sq.m. of free land allowance (plus a higher stipend of L$500/week).
Tary Allen
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- Resident
as @Sylvia Tamalyn said you could buy a lifetime account back in late 2002 and I think in 2003.
The account was 195 USD at first and 250 USD later.
http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/3/bb/2993/1.html
"The world you have created is about to be born! With great excitement and our deepest thanks, I am pleased to announce our upcoming commercial release, pricing for Beta Residents, and some future product development plans.
Second Life will be released to the public in just a few weeks, and starting today, Beta Residents and Early Creators will be able to take advantage of special discounts on Second Life. Discounted rates for Beta Residents include a reduced first month's rate of $9.95, in addition to a fixed lifetime option at $159.95. Click here to view all membership plans and convert your account right now!"
1Soull Starlight
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- Resident
Wow! If they did that today, I'd purchase a 'lifetime account' in a heartbeat, event at more than $159.
What price do you think would be fair?
Feorie Frimon
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- Resident
I had no idea this was a thing - what terrible news! 
That means there are large massive swaths of mainland that will never be updated or even accessed again aside from the moment it was first purchased - over a decade ago…..
Notice the immediate panic and exaggeration of this perceived "disaster" -- the assumption that all those oldbies never updated their parcels (some of them did) or that there were "masses" of them (there aren't).
Sam1 Bellisserian
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- Resident
- I may or may not be RPing. It's up to you to figure out.
Wow! If they did that today, I'd purchase a 'lifetime account' in a heartbeat, event at more than $159.
What price do you think would be fair?
I'm guessing that it would be $1000 USD +
Sam1 Bellisserian
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- Resident
- I may or may not be RPing. It's up to you to figure out.
I had no idea this was a thing - what terrible news!
That means there are large massive swaths of mainland that will never be updated or even accessed again aside from the moment it was first purchased - over a decade ago…..
Why is that terrible? Can't be any worse than what is already on the mainland now.
This persona routinely turns in nasty comments like this and inserts herself into discussions about a place she hates -- the Mainland -- as her very name indicates lol.
Qie Niangao
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- Advisor
- Coin-operated
That means there are large massive swaths of mainland that will never be updated or even accessed again aside from the moment it was first purchased - over a decade ago…..
Not that large, though, and mostly on the older parts of the Sansara continent. The earliest regions have some content that might be described as "of historical interest" at best, and those are likely to stay unchanged for as long as there's a grid. Some folks appreciate that "legacy" even as inspiration, but it's not a great setting for a conventional new build.
Fossils are not fashionable, but they're a specialized interest.
Certainly some of those founding residents stuck around long enough to spread content to other continents too, and some are probably still active.
Indeed. I made the same points, and Qie has been around long enough to know this -- and Feorie has not. There is always the mystery of what Feorie, born in 2009, has been doing all this time. That is, 11 years, before she sprang on the scene in 2020 with Operation Mainland, which I have now dubbed "MyLand" as that's what it really is about for her. That's a long time in SL. I once queried her and got a very incomplete answer about some game she developed or something. It doesn't matter. But most of the land dealers that I find "decent" have been in SL in the land business and transparent about what they do for years and years. The ones with unscrupulous practices like Winning Witte tend to have their reputations precede them.
Sylvia Tamalyn
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- Resident
- I said what I said
I had no idea this was a thing - what terrible news!
That means there are large massive swaths of mainland that will never be updated or even accessed again aside from the moment it was first purchased - over a decade ago…..
I think there is plenty of room in SL for the old historical builds, as ugly as some might find them to be, along with all the newest up-to-date meshy stuff. For those that feel the urge to go out and improve everything, I see no danger of abandoned land running out anytime soon.
I like @Qie Niangao's use of the word "fossils", because that's how I see the ancient items found here and there. Are they pretty by today's SL standards? Nope, but they are sure interesting to quite a few residents (including myself)! Not everything should be updated. 
Feorie Frimon
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- Resident
I think there is plenty of room in SL for the old historical builds, as ugly as some might find them to be, along with all the newest up-to-date meshy stuff. For those that feel the urge to go out and improve everything, I see no danger of abandoned land running out anytime soon.
I like @Qie Niangao's use of the word "fossils", because that's how I see the ancient items found here and there. Are they pretty by today's SL standards? Nope, but they are sure interesting to quite a few residents (including myself)! Not everything should be updated.
That’s true. But I guess I don’t agree with keeping things for the sake of keeping it - especially if no one looks at it, experiences it, or has an interest in it. This isn’t like the RL - if a tree exists in SL and no one goes to look at it for 5 years, LL still pays for its existence.
So why is Feorie, who tried to suck up to the Moles and failed, and was exasperated with them (and rightly so) when they wouldn't cut her into their approved stamp game, suddenly worried about Governor Linden's bills for their public land with old builds? This isn't some huge amount of land, for one. (I'd have to look at Tyche's survey but it's not more than 30% and likely less now after an aggressive campaign to get rid of abandoned land.) But her notion of what is appealing or not is subjective, and not everyone would agree. Some of the builds are atrocious -- some are grand. The Moth Temple, for example, which, even before it was upgraded by a Linden to make it less prims, etc. and fix the moth scripts was always amazing. Feorie did an entire video on it and somehow failed to understand right away that next to this ancient Linden build was a tutorial and freebie sim built by Jessica and me and maintained by our group.
And that ancient build that is a ‘cool fossil’ (that no one looks at or visits or honestly, even cares about) literally creates abandoned land around it because no one wants to live next to it.
That's simply not true. I can't think of a single Linden build that drives away tier holders. People abandon land because it is next to GTFO -- which Feorie applauds and also sucks up to, needlessly -- GTFO is a bane on the Mainland with enormous numbers of huge, concrete ugly builds with giant swathes of parking lots -- speaking of swathes. Yet she blesses it and cooperates with them. I have sold land out of sims where they persist or appear and PS I rent to one group that has a GTFO location. I don't care if somebody wants to RP giant concrete build. There's certainly room for these kinds of builds like any builds on the Mainland. But there is way too much of it and it does spoil the view. And if anything, GTFO forces people out of sims and that can't be good for the Mainland. There is nothing to be done about it until either the developers or their customers get tired of this "game".
I’m not saying mesh everything, but come on, guys…. How many ‘fossils’ does SL really need?
Why is this suddenly such an urgent matter? This is what puzzles me. What "fossil" is getting in the way of Feorie's MyLand Empire today?
One of my favorite spots on mainland is that old Volunteer Spot with the ancient prim robot - amazing prim work on it and this cool statue in the back.
And it’s a cool spot with loads of history - but no one ever goes there and the info is out dated. That doesn’t look good for SL. I don’t think we should keep it just cause it’s old, you know?
That's DEFINITELY sounding like she appreciates it but wants to remove it or "refurbish" it in some way that might make it quite different. We shouldn't keep it just because it's old. Well, why not? We keep the Coliseum and the Parthenon in RL even though they are very old. They are exactly like that, literally drawing inspiration from those RL builds. The purpose of the build originally -- to have huge meetings with lots of Mentors and other volunteers -- is gone, and thank God for it. The volunteers were always a very bad idea of people who either performed their jobs badly or tried to financially or reputationally gain from these unpaid positions. Let paid, benefited staff and contractors do the work of SL. This idea that the entire thing has to be turned into a subbotnik is for the birds.
Actually @Patch Linden - you mentioned awhile ago that you guys would be open to ideas for repurposing land. Is this a good example of that? Would this be a good example of something someone could submit a JIRA for to do something else with for the greater SL community?
THIS is the most objectional line in all these power-play interventions, and I wondered WHERE and WHAT EXACTLY was mentioned by Patch, and whether this has been understood correctly. He either said this off-handedly as a way to get rid of people constantly coming up with "big ideas," or he actually hoped to put unpaid residents to work dealing with the burden of the Mainland as the paid Moles are busy still with Bellisseria. I hope not the latter. Because every Linden build like this -- whether a Magellan site, a bridge, a park, the palaces in the Sea of Fables, whatever, has residents who own land around it. It's simply not the case that it is "all abandoned". There is NO abandoned land around the Tenera Volunteer palaces. It is purchased and tiered; there are various end users or rental communities and land for sale on some of the sims as is the case all over. No one has ever complained about this build. I never even noticed it until I came to examine Sylvia because it is a bit off the beaten path of Heterocera -- the sims where I do own land such as Iris around the Moth Temple are quite away away from this, although oddly enough I own land in nearby Polia, and somehow never came in this direction. It's the fact that these builds DO NOT get many visitors that the crabbing about them being "out of date" or "too old and ugly" (read: made of prims and sculpties and not mesh) makes no sense.
Sylvia Tamalyn
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- Resident
- I said what I said
Sorry, but personally I do not want to see all of Mainland leveled and rebuilt to look exactly the same from one region to the next. It's incorrect to say that "nobody" enjoys or values the old builds, and to be honest, I don't enjoy a lot of the "improvements" I see people do. It's all very bland and generic to me.
I miss the days of "Your world, your imagination".
Those days are gone forever. We can only enact them on whatever sim we ourselves tier; it is not the vision of the world; the Mainland is in the way, not the central vision any more.
- You, LittleMe Jewell, Sam1 Bellisserian and 2 others
5
Feorie Frimon
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- Resident
Sorry, but personally I do not want to see all of Mainland leveled and rebuilt to look exactly the same from one region to the next. It's incorrect to say that "nobody" enjoys or values the old builds, and to be honest, I don't enjoy a lot of the "improvements" I see people do. It's all very bland and generic to me.
I miss the days of "Your world, your imagination".
I agree with this! I think there is a place for both. It’s one of the things I like best about the mainland.
I think finding a way to merry the two is the only way to help the mainland move forward.
Again, who died and made Feorie Queen? Why is she dispensing policies that are "the only way to help the Mainland"? There's lots of ways to help the Mainland. Chiefly by buying and tiering land and getting the Lindens to do the minimum of Governance and Maintenance work.
In the example of that Volunteer Space that I love - what if we just updated the links and notecards to go to the right place? What if we added some new trees or information that talked about these old builds - I know I’d love to learn about how that giant robot was built.
Here she completely insincerely backtracks from her previous statement, on the record and unedited, which makes it clear that she sees no reason not to get rid of old builds. An austere build like this -- which was built to fit the terrain originally -- doesn't need somebody to dot it with trees like it was Bellisseria. Her gushing here is so typically fake -- we all know that she doesn't love this land she was happy to see go five minutes ago, and that she doesn't care about the robots or she'd have IM'd the builder, who is NOT a Linden; it is Shawk Pertwee. If he isn't in SL any more, you can google it and read the old forums.
I don’t think we need to level it , but let’s just help make it current and informative. Dead links look bad for everyone.
Who's looking? And it's not like the dead links abound. In fact, almost all of them work!!! It's a meeting place primarily. It has 3 kiosks asking for volunteers to translate Chinese, etc. These link to the French, etc. localization projects. I think those projects were either completed or discontinued, but it's hardly the disaster Feorie imagines if those little stone kiosks happen to be outdated and link to a page saying "work on viewer 1.23 is finished" (2009) but here's where bugs can be reported". If you were motivated, you could still figure out how to contribute.
The large board linking to SL Answers works fine and leads you to the current page, which is likely the most important thing on the site in terms of information. The board seemingly linking to secondlife.com/showcase (it's now called "Destinations") doesn't "go anywhere", but if you type secondlife.com/showcase into your browser, it resolves to the current "Destinations". Again, no "dead link making SL look bad". Yet another kiosk links to the current SL blog -- the chief source of LL's news. They work fine! They were always there!
That's it. That's the site. It has a few kiosks. Some of them lead to a completed project. One of them doesn't work but if you type the address, it does. The others -- the most important ones! -- do work and are up to date. The end. No disastrous look for LL, nothing driving away any newbies or oldbies. It's a great hangout. The Lindens should do meetings there again with their residents and not have "volunteers". What they have are tier payers. They should find ways of talking to them that don't involve being shuffled into Linden office hours where Lindens sit and read off their blog -- which hey, I could read myself, having sat down in their ampitheatre with a RL cup of tea and clicked on their link to their blog that works.
BTW as I stand here in this palace, I can't miss the big billboard across the road -- something I seldom use but which fit here without ruining anyone's view -- that says RENTALS for my community.
Edited April 6 by Feorie Frimon
Typos - on my phone :)
LittleMe Jewell
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- ♥ Innocent (mostly) ♥
ExpandWow! If they did that today, I'd purchase a 'lifetime account' in a heartbeat, event at more than $159.
What price do you think would be fair?
I'm guessing that it would be $1000 USD +
Far more than that, I'd guess. The monthly tier for a 4096 is $22.00 US. The $1000.00 would not even cover 4 years worth.
Prokofy Neva
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ExpandA friend told me that many parcels on the mainland are "grandfathered", meaning nobody pays tier on them and the listed owners may be long gone from SL. This makes sense to me because in my many years of exploring mainland SL I have noticed quite a few parcels with antiquated builds, that never ever change, and never seem to have any activity on them. I have also sent notecards to many of these owners inquiring if they were interested in selling and I never get any response. This leads me to believe the owners have long since departed SL, but then I wonder who is paying the tier? Apparently grandfathered parcels were given away to certain people in the very early days of second life.
Do any of you have any insight on "Grandfathered" mainland parcels??
thanks
Marz
I know exactly what you mean, and these are NOT the "Lifetime Accounts" because they are not 4096 in size, but generally only 1024 or 512 in size. You see their owners have disappeared from the People List, yet if you enquire if the land is available and actually abandoned (but maybe the Lindens somehow didn't notice yet), they say the land is "supported", a strange term to be sure.
So my theory about these parcels, which I have expounded on before in other threads, is that these are industry giveaways, that especially back in the era of "big business" in 2006-2007, the Lindens gave away a lot of free accounts that in a sense were like the "charter accounts free for life" but not marked as such as they were just their friends in Silicon Valley that they wanted to write reviews of SL, or bring into SL in some fashion for business. And there's nothing wrong with this. Except most if not all of those people didn't stay. Or another possibility: If they are staff alt accounts, those staff are long gone and don't care any more.
I kept asking about a certain parcel in the middle of a sim over and over for years, and finally one day I saw it suddenly abandoned formally and asked for it. I don't think that some rich programmer bought himself five years of membership ahead or forget a credit card that kept billing annually or event monthly. I think that as with most abandoned land, the Lindens decided to move it on out and get it under tier. So they may beginning to end some of these "free for life" industry freebies. My theory anyway. Yet some do persist.
Prokofy Neva
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I had no idea this was a thing - what terrible news!
That means there are large massive swaths of mainland that will never be updated or even accessed again aside from the moment it was first purchased - over a decade ago…..
There actually aren't that many Charter accounts out there. What happened is that some oldbies would get a string of alts with the 4096s, put it together to make up a sim, and flip it, as that would be a sim free of start-up costs -- back in the day, buying a nice waterfront sim on the auction could run US $1000 or even $2000 (Ravenglass was $1501 on the auction). But I only saw a few individuals do that because even with the tier for free, you still had to buy the land inworld or on the auction, which was still a cost. And the Lindens, for this reason and for reason of "first land" abuse on multiple alts, limited the number of alts on premium accounts to five only back in the day (a limit they have since removed).
Those oldbies who still remain are in the old colour sims or the early sims of SL, few of them went beyond those sims. Those more enterprising ones might have bought, say, land in Brown that was very expensive, and have their land to this day but never log in to change their house from 2007 or even earlier. But there aren't "whole massive swathes" because the population was small. I don't know what the concurrency was in 2004-2005 but I wouldn't be surprised if it were under 5,000. And the world itself was far smaller so it was a known quantity in certain sims.
The window for buying and selling obviously closed -- you can't get those accounts any more, although you could apply the tier to any new land. I have some tier donors to Ravenglass that put in their 4096 for island parcels, for example and still remain although they seldom log in. It's not a factor for the Mainland land market, in my view.
Prokofy Neva
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ExpandThat’s true. But I guess I don’t agree with keeping things for the sake of keeping it - especially if no one looks at it, experiences it, or has an interest in it. This isn’t like the RL - if a tree exists in SL and no one goes to look at it for 5 years, LL still pays for its existence.
And that ancient build that is a ‘cool fossil’ (that no one looks at or visits or honestly, even cares about) literally creates abandoned land around it because no one wants to live next to it.
I’m not saying mesh everything, but come on, guys…. How many ‘fossils’ does SL really need?
One of my favorite spots on mainland is that old Volunteer Spot with the ancient prim robot - amazing prim work on it and this cool statue in the back.
And it’s a cool spot with loads of history - but no one ever goes there and the info is out dated. That doesn’t look good for SL. I don’t think we should keep it just cause it’s old, you know?
Actually @Patch Linden - you mentioned awhile ago that you guys would be open to ideas for repurposing land. Is this a good example of that? Would this be a good example of something someone could submit a JIRA for to do something else with for the greater SL community?
Here's where the Lindens began slashing to posts -- after leaving Feorie's suck-up to Patch and her bid to manage land in my view.
When that happens in SL, I feel you have to push back swiftly and hard. Only force is understood. Only force. Nothing else works. If it did, I'd be for it. But attempts to discuss things amicably, attempts to have inworld chats or proposals -- these don't work. Feorie has made it clear -- like other types who appear in SL from time to time -- she wants to do her thing, she wants to press you into her service for her goals and her glory, and she is unable to cooperate normally or successfully. I'm hardly the only one to point this out.
Would you *stop*? Why do you want the Lindens to level an old build that many people still appreciate? I sure do because I bought most of the sim right across from it, where I have built a community roughly related to that theme of their build (ancient Rome/Greece). I and at least *some* of my tenants go there all the time (not everyone likes exploring in SL). So your idea that "no one wants to live near it" is entirely false. I, my neighbours on two sides, and other neighbours in the area *DO LIVE THERE*. It's just you didn't notice.
Why do you need the Lindens to take this large tract of land and give it to YOU for free? Why you alone? Why anybody? Why me? If I purchased land on the premise that it was "Linden protected," why end that Linden protection? Of course the Lindens have been all about devaluing land constantly over the years, permitting ad farms, not policing their eventual TOS against them today, creating Bellisseria, which is eating the Mainland.
The Lindens have sold their server space/land for 20 years with the concept of "Linden protection". It has a been a ground rule engraved in stone from time immemorial that Linden roads and land parcels stay the way you find them. They rarely change. They may get an update. But they are not sold on the auction or given away to residents except with some specific program -- such as SLEA, or the Shop 'n Hop events, or, as I've noted, the old resident-managed Linden-owned infohubs.
But why give them ideas to do *more*? If your excuse here is that you didn't even notice my community right across from this old build in Tenera, I'd have to say: why? And don't you have enough to do with your own abandoned reclamation project?
I have to say again, sitting in this build and looking out, that if you didn't notice my billboard, the spire (from ionic), and other builds there, you must have your draw at 64.
To be sure, years ago, the Lindens tried to repurpose their retired telehubs into infohubs; they largely failed, even after a "make a hippo" contest, and they decided to accept applications for "resident-built infohubs". So we applied for one and that's what you see today in Ross; there are others in Warmouth, Hyle, Violet etc -- about a dozen. Most are not kept up. One popular one in Amber was built by Osprey Therein who died in RL some years ago. So there is a precedent for turning over Linden land that even remains Linden owned to residents to "develop". But why "develop" the old Volunteers HQ build?! It also has a nice railroad station near it.
Here I was trying to concede that perhaps Feorie or others in her posse felt jealous, felt that they had missed the boat on the resident-developed Linden Land. Yet because she has never even focused on this program or realized her own kiosk was on one of these old infohubs, I don't think that's it. The Lindens never showed any interest in following up on these hubs; no Linden ever talked to us ever again after we were allowed to set our groups to these infohubs. They sent newbies to them in the orientation program; we updated them or not, and occasionally we'd ask for them to put in a music stream. Not long ago I asked for them to put "avsitter experience" into the land menu to make the deliverable coffee and pastries work. They refused, strangely. They felt that once they started putting in resident-created experiences, there would be no end to this, and they couldn't police them properly. Of course avsitter is entirely routine, like a paper clip, like a give notecard script. They put it in Mole builds in Bellisseria. They could put it here. Whatever.
If you want the Lindens to pay attention to the Mainland, I can think of 100 other tasks I'd rather have them spend their time on than removing old builds that aren't tended, either resident-run or their own. Start by fixing or rebuilding roads. Put roads where they are needed, for example around those weird billboard teleport road "solutions" in Sababurg and other sims. Police the obelisks and ad farms better. Etc.
Of course everything changes in SL, and if due to your agitation, coupled with their built-in animosity to me, they leveled this great old build and even the aqueduct road next to it, it doesn't "ruin" my business, so rest assured this isn't special pleading. Most of the tenants would be oblivious, even if I give them cards of local attractions including that build. My old Spanish castle put next to it might end up looking out of place compared to whatever you/your Lindens decided to put in there. I would simply remove my build and sell or repurpose the land, as I have always done. But why do I have to be the one always adjusting to whatever thing you or others cook up? I'm a tier-payer, too.
Of course I'd be said if this old build which was one of the reasons I bought this sim -- "Linden protection" -- was leveled or changed. But I do want to make it clear that my complaint here isn't specific to my own land or business. There's a generic principle at stake here: the Lindens let one un-elected group take over in Bellisseria and gave their leader a 4096 instead of a 1024 like everyone else, and let them put in their stamp game and all their other activities. I think there may be some tolerance for this among the Bellisserian population, or at least not active resistance except from a few people like me. But are we now to have this on the Mainland, too??? Horrors. It's bad enough that the Lindens encouraged the BBB to create "Mainland ambassadors" and come and try to lure more Mainlanders into Bellisseria. Do we now have to endure them taking over old Linden land tracts???
I really do have to wonder why you selected this old build, alone among builds. There are so many other builds that are actually quite ugly and really old fashioned (this one isn't). There is one old sculpty park build in the Blake Sea Linden that I noticed the Lindens themselves have started to carve up and quietly auction off for the huge amounts that Blake Sea can garner. And who can blame them? They need to make bank. If we need to find tracts to "repurpose" I will come up with a list for you.
Actually, there aren't that many ugly Linden builds. To be a Linden build means by definition usually to be better than residents, at least for that era. The bridge in Palomarian -- which replaced a beautiful old Linden bridge -- is an example of "ugly" -- it has Zindra-like texturing and looks terrible in that old sim environment. I could find others that are just random parks with not much in them on later continents. I can't think of Sansara builds that are ugly. In fact, many of the best ones like the Moth Temple are there.
There are no more "Volunteers" -- and that's a good thing. There are no more inworld Town Halls -- and that's a bad thing. This build has an Amphitheater should the Lindens ever wish to have a meeting with either the general public or their self-selected friends. I'm for keeping it untouched.
I am so, so, SO tired of people with big ideas to develop the entire grid with "sim seam solutions" using the BDSM viewer; with big ideas for how the Lindens should "repurpose" their land; for builds they should "rescue". If you have an idea for developing a sim, do what I do; buy one on the auction, pay the cost, pay the tier, develop to your heart's content.
And if you merely wish not to "level it" (although if you opened it up to applications via the JIRA for re-development, you can't be sure WHAT would happen) and merely "updated" it -- why would you get to decide? Why would anyone? I decided to make my Spanish Castle a place to put records of the auction, which aren't kept beyond a month. It's a lot of work and I haven't kept up. But if I have an idea, I implement it on land I pay for. The Lindens themselves could update it and put up their current kiosks, sure. But actually, if we are thinking up jobs for them to do, there are other more urgent ones.
Persephone Emerald
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- a wanderer in liminal space
If you want the Lindens to pay attention to the Mainland, I can think of 100 other tasks I'd rather have them spend their time on than removing old builds that aren't tended, either resident-run or their own. Start by fixing or rebuilding roads. Put roads where they are needed, for example around those weird billboard teleport road "solutions" in Sababurg and other sims. Police the obelisks and ad farms better. Etc....
I agree with this. Instead of just abandoning the mainland, I wish LL and the Moles could update it a bit. I left Heterocera for Belliseria in part because I couldn't stand the old prim trees, scruffy weeds and ugly old prim builds that don't rez well. Linden Lab can't change the builds other residents have made on mainland, but they could update the roads and plants. Then maybe they could drop some new Linden neighborhoods into some of the mostly empty and abandoned mainland regions? It seems to me that nearly empty regions are an expense for Linden Lab that they could turn into regions that would pay for their existence on the servers.
What about the mostly empty older Linden Home regions too? Is there some way they can be consolidated? Are there incentives LL could offer the residents there to get them to move to the newer Linden Homes regions? Giving them nice roads and double the land impact doesn't seem to be enough. Yet, most of those houses are empty, just burning up space on the servers.
I can never understand this itching of some people to get these old Linden Home sims "ordered" or "tidied up". If the Lindens really feel the pain of running sims without tier, they will obviously retire them. There isn't a thing we can do about it. Most likely, as with the move to Zindra of adult businesses, they will offer a 1:1 trade. They will possibly save a few of their own big builds. But they haven't bothered with any of this yet because it's work and they have enough to do. LL may go out of business before they ever do this. It's obviously not a priority.
Feorie Frimon
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@Prokofy Neva Someone said this to me the other day, and you know what? This is part of the reason why people think the forums are so toxic.
I never said I wanted that land. In fact, I said over and over that I love that parcel on thread after thread. I even bought the parcel next to it because I wanted to be near that robot before I realized I could never terraform it to the same height the center is actually at. (I abandoned it because I couldn’t get the land levels to match the ones the Lindens set on that parcel)
This is among the most bizarre of the statements. So Feorie spent enough time here to buy land and attempt to "terraform it up," yet she didn't notice our community? The other rental agencies? The railroad guy? Nothing around her at all? Really? And why would you need to terraform Mainland up to any level it doesn't go? Obviously you use mesh terrains and build it up. You know, like those very exposed cliff houses?
Heck, I did a video on the place. I have pictures of me there. I love that old robot.
But here you are (and other people too!) implying that I want it because I asked if this was the type of thing that Patch meant when he asked for JIRA requests and ideas. Painting me out to be some master mind - “I have to wonder why you picked this one…”
Because I love it? And I hate dead links?!
Um, no. No sale here. And stop being a manipulative liar, because we see through it. You may love this old robot but you never bothered to click on it, find its maker, and look for him. Note there is still this insistence that Feorie is an interpreter of what Patch meant (by "innocently" asking if he meant THIS) and never questioning that the very process of the JIRA is an unfair and inappropriate venue for feature requests. And indeed, Feorie in her every action to date has revealed her wannabee mastermind aspirations. People can do what they want and be any kind of mastermind they like, but it ends where my land starts. It ends at the Linden road. And what Feorie was doing with this power play was trying to take over the Linden land as animats tried to take over the roads and as Yava does in fact takes over the roads.
BUT WE LIVE HERE GODDAMIT!
I’ll tell you the same thing I told her - I pay $150 USD a month for my tier and almost all of it’s used. I don’t want to add another sqm to what I’m already paying for….. so have a seat and calm down. I’m not trying to take anything and I’m seriously tired of the implication simply because I asked a question.
I will not be taking any seat whatsoever; once again I LIVE HERE. I pay the tier across from this build. I bothered with it, and bought it when its owner who bought it from the auction because its previous owner abandoned it, sold it for a song. It might have been chopped up into ad parcels or become yet another GTFO build but it didn't because of my time and money and effort. So honestly, fuck you. You didn't just "ask a question". You tooled around this build, parachuting in from somewhere else; you bought a parcel and fiddled with it and had no notion of what to do with it; you then invoked Patch and this putative process to get your hands on a larger parcel and "develop" it. That is plain for all to see. At least be honest about what your bid here is all about.
SHAME ON YOU for trying to shout me down (or anyone else!) for trying to get some info. Or painting me out to be something I’m not - I thought we were friends?!
See, this is the sort of manipulative bullshit that I call RIGHT out. Pushing back against somebody's forums power-play isn't "shouting them down" -- it's resisting their power play. They get to shout all they like -- until they force the Lindens to close the thread, mission accomplished, eh? And what you are is visible for all to see.
And you know what? I DO think dead links at that beloved Volunteer Center look bad for EVERYONE in SecondLife and I DON’T think dead links serve some historic principle for some blah blah nonsense of SecondLife history.
If you loved the Volunteer Center so goddamn fucking much, Feorie Frimon, you would fucking NOTICE that the links ARE NOT DEAD. They lead to the Answers page, the Lindens' blog, and the Destinations -- all without "deadness". If some translation kiosks of languages you don't speak (and you likely speak NO foreign languages) don't work, I guess you wouldn't care as you expect the world to speak English, eh? And here you really reveal your hand. "blah blah nonsense of SecondLife history". All that is going on here is jealousy that you weren't in the glorious past (hey, I missed the boat on the Charter membership, too) and all this is about is the restless and imperious seeking of yet another venue to enlarge your persona. I don't see why were are required to go along with that.
QUOTE THAT.
Edited 34 minutes ago by Feorie FrimonTypos
Feorie Frimon
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What about the mostly empty older Linden Home regions too? Is there some way they can be consolidated? Are there incentives LL could offer the residents there to get them to move to the newer Linden Homes regions? Giving them nice roads and double the land impact doesn't seem to be enough. Yet, most of those houses are empty, just burning up space on the servers.
I think a lot of people would freak out if there were more incentives to moving to the new Linden Homes regions.
I’m more about a plan to make the mainland more desirable - not the Lindens Home regions. Nothing against Belli, ya’ll - it’s nice, but the Mainland needs some love. ❤️
Flippant and arrogant bullshit.
Prokofy Neva
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Expand@Prokofy Neva Someone said this to me the other day, and you know what? This is part of the reason why people think the forums are so toxic.
I never said I wanted that land. In fact, I said over and over that I love that parcel on thread after thread. I even bought the parcel next to it because I wanted to be near that robot before I realized I could never terraform it to the same height the vole tree center is actually at. (I abandoned it because I couldn’t get the land levels to match)
Heck, I did a video on the place. I have pictures of me there. I love that old robot.
But here you are (and other people too!) implying that I want it because I asked if this was the type of thing that Patch meant when he asked for JIRA requests and ideas. Painting me out to me some master mind - “I have to wonder why you picked this one…”
Because I love it? And I hate dead links?
I’ll tell you the same thing I told her - I pay $150 USD a month for my tier and almost all of it’s used. I don’t want to add another sqm to what I’m already paying for….. so have a seat and calm down.
I’m not trying to take anything and I’m seriously tired of the implication simply because I asked a question.
SHAME ON YOU for trying to shout me down (or anyone else!) for trying to get some info. Or painting me out to be something I’m not - I thought we were friends?!
And you know what? I DO think dead links at that beloved Volunteer Center look bad for EVERYONE in SecondLife and I DON’T think dead links serve some historic principle for some blah blah nonsense of SecondLife history.
QUOTE THAT.
Feorie, I told you that I would not accept any apologies based on "I didn't know" and I stand by it. And if you say "I never said I wanted that land," I don't accept that, either. You alerted Patch to make good on offering such parcels for "repurposing". "Repurposing" is what a lot of your business is all about. Who do you think was going to do the "repurposing"? Philip Rosedale? The Man in the Moon?
And once again: I HAVE TO WONDER a) why you didn't notice an entire community right across from this. Or even to the sides of it. Or behind it. You love it and go there so much and you never noticed that other people LIVE THERE? And why think up grandiose plans for the Lindens? IT DOESN"T MATTER if a) you claim it doesn't help your business or b) it doesn't in fact ruin my business. WHAT MATTERS is the grandiose plan-making. WHY? If you are going to "think up things for the Lindens to do," let them develop a policy to remove all the disruptive obelisks and ill-used "Good Neighbour" kiosks. Or 100 other ideas that add value, and don't take it away, and serve the public, not one developer.
We aren't friends, and I feel no shame whatsoever in protesting swiftly and firmly about "grand ideas" to "serve the public" that the public who actually live there didn't get to participate in. Or any public whatsoever. It is what is so very wrong with so many things in SL. And you casually add to it because you believe you serve the public. Do you? I believe that of myself, too. Do I? Which public? Whose public? You have to ask the bigger questions.
So wait a minute, Feorie. First you say "nobody goes there" (we do) and then "Nobody lives around abandoned or old unused builds" (we do, in fact, and paid good money for it!). Then you say "it hurts the Lindens if they have dead links."
Well which is it?! Nobody goes there but this harm is caused by dead links?! By Lucy Linden and here 8000 (!) volunteers being gone from SL? Or she and most of them, anyway. Really?! But nobody goes there. If they did -- and PS complained about a public sandbox that once existed and is now removed -- there might be action. But they didn't (or at least the LL friends didn't) and there wasn't. It's not that any Linden ruled that this place had to be preserved in amber. It's that they don't care, and don't have time. So again I say: why put ideas into their heads for "developing" SL which will turn into Bellisseria? They didn't put a Mole stamp here -- yet -- in their bid to compete with your acknowledgedly better stamp game. So let them put in a stamp and update the kiosks? But if they have TIME, there are other things that can be done.
And again, the principle is this: WHY DO YOU NEED TO THINK UP GRAND IDEAS FOR THE MAINLAND 'PUBLIC'? Make and pay for them yourself, and they will come, as they did for your stamp game. There's so many things the Lindens "don't do" because it will impact some friend base of theirs, some business base of theirs. Why encourage them?! They don't remove these old parcels which seem to be industry giveaways. Or even Charter (and if they had such a product, why have them undo a product promise? It isn't the whole swathes competing with your business that you imagine). They didn't "fix" this build because maybe no one submitted a plan for a statue of a Linden there. Or who the heck knows. I think the business of suggesting GRAND IDEAS for the Mainland is always self-serving, always is sure to reward one group and not another, is always decided undemocratically, and therefore you should not feed into that authoritarian system.
This is especially obnoxious on your part because the whole reason I bought this land in Sylvia was because I had to FLEE from Dicycla from a badly implemented auction that put an entire no-access wall around all my customers there. I ate the cost of moving them all because the Lindens auctioned off a badly-joined bunch of abandoned land and it sold to a diva who put up "no access", coupled with another diva with no-access, creating a wall. No one was going to fight land barons and divas with half a sim of tier to play with (she later abandoned it and it was chopped up by another bottom feeder of SL into "quick sale" bites). And I told you about all this and you simply forgot it or never paid attention in the first place.
1Prokofy Neva
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I think a lot of people would freak out if there were more incentives to moving to the new Linden Homes regions.
I’m more about a plan to make the mainland more desirable - not the Lindens Home regions. Nothing against Belli, ya’ll - it’s nice, but the Mainland needs some love. ❤️
No it doesn't need love that is orchestrated by those who can shout loudest on the forums or get the attention of the Lindens in whatever way. The way to provide "love" to the Mainland is to buy it and build on it yourself, the end. If it changes and devalues, move. The end.
I do not want or need a plan that is not democratically decided -- we don't have even the rudiments of democracy any more in SL. And because of that -- the authoritarianism of special pleadings and land cutters and accident -- I don't think any plan is viable and will strenuously oppose any and all plans of this type for the reasons I stated above.
Bellisseria/Fantasseria has already eaten the world. It devours all the Linden/Mole attention. Many people have elected to move there because of the cost of larger parcels on Mainland, or island tier. The economy was damaged for many by the gatcha policy and the result benefits the Lindens, as move people move to Belli as a result or they move on to the MP where the Lindens can take a 10% tax on every sale.
Many, many times we have argued about the old Linden Homes and there are many casual proposals to just delete it or tighten it up or force people to move by fiat or incentive. And this is why for some years I went and maintained an old Linden Home as an art gallery since I hoped to make a "last stand" there when it came to deleting the sims -- although I see plenty of green dots on them. Concierge Lindens have spoken of how they would like to retain the old builds like the Dinosaur and the quest that went with it, and have spoken of how they don't plan to delete anything. But of course with forums agitation, and given Patch Linden's propensity to solve any problem with more Bellisseria, they will be deleted.
Meanwhile, I gave up my home there as one of my many cost saving measures due to the sales tax of RL that LL imposes. Did this not affect you? Do you live in a state without sales tax? You don't have to answer that question of course. But I wonder how casually you make suggestions for others. For me, the sales tax is a huge unwelcome cost. It's like renting a new island -- but without having any customers on it to make back the tier! I am going to speak of this in another thread.
Feorie Frimon
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ExpandFeorie, I told you that I would not accept any apologies based on "I didn't know" and I stand by it. And if you say "I never said I wanted that land," I don't accept that, either. You alerted Patch to make good on offering such parcels for "repurposing". "Repurposing" is what a lot of your business is all about. Who do you think was going to do the "repurposing"? Philip Rosedale? The Man in the Moon?
And once again: I HAVE TO WONDER a) why you didn't notice an entire community right across from this. Or even to the sides of it. Or behind it. You love it and go there so much and you never noticed that other people LIVE THERE? And why think up grandiose plans for the Lindens? IT DOESN"T MATTER if a) you claim it doesn't help your business or b) it doesn't in fact ruin my business. WHAT MATTERS is the grandiose plan-making. WHY? If you are going to "think up things for the Lindens to do," let them develop a policy to remove all the disruptive obelisks and ill-used "Good Neighbour" kiosks. Or 100 other ideas that add value, and don't take it away, and serve the public, not one developer.
We aren't friends, and I feel no shame whatsoever in protesting swiftly and firmly about "grand ideas" to "serve the public" that the public who actually live there didn't get to participate in. Or any public whatsoever. It is what is so very wrong with so many things in SL. And you casually add to it because you believe you serve the public. Do you? I believe that of myself, too. Do I? Which public? Whose public? You have to ask the bigger questions.
So wait a minute, Feorie. First you say "nobody goes there" (we do) and then "Nobody lives around abandoned or old unused builds" (we do, in fact, and paid good money for it!). Then you say "it hearts the Lindens if they have dead links."Well which is it?! Nobody goes there but this harm is cause by dead links? By Lucy Linden and here 8000 (!) volunteers being gone from SL? Or she and most of them, anyway. It's not that any Linden ruled that this place had to be preserved in amber. It's that they don't care, and don't have time. So again I say: why put ideas into their heads for "developing" SL which will turn into Bellisseria? They didn't put a Mole stamp here -- yet -- in their bid to compete with your acknowledgedly better stamp game. So let them put in a stamp and update the kiosks? But if they have TIME, there are other things that can be done.
And again, the principle is this: WHY DO YOU NEED TO THINK UP GRAND IDEAS FOR THE MAINLAND 'PUBLIC'? Make and pay for them yourself, and they will come, as they did for your stamp game. There's so many things the Lindens "don't do" because it will impact some friend base of theirs, some business base of theirs. Why encourage them?! They don't remove these old parcels which seem to be industry giveaways. Or even Charter (and if they had such a product, why have them undo a product promise? It isn't the whole swathes competing with your business that you imagine). They didn't "fix" this build because maybe no one submitted a plan for a statue of a Linden there. Or who the heck knows. I think the business of suggesting GRAND IDEAS for the Mainland is always self-serving, always is sure to reward one group and not another, is always decided undemocratically, and therefore you should not feed into that authoritarian system.
And this is where you and me, Prokofy, aren't cool anymore. What you are doing is manipulative and bullying. I have been clear and honest, and I don't appreciate what you're trying to do here. I didn't know you had land there, and I don't care if you accept it. I don't spend nearly as much time as you do in SL, so I definately don't have enough to go investigate the parcel owners of every single parcel near every place I like on the mainland. We are friends - or were on each other's Friends List as of...today? Unless you removed me? I guess we shouldn't be friends anymore since apparently we never were...?
Again, what manipulative and heedless lying. I'm not the manipulator when I read back to someone what they wrote: which is that they thought old builds should be pulled and Patch should accept proposals to "develop" them. We all saw what she wrote. So it's a distraction to say "tu quoque". Of course, immersed in RL as the fabulous Frimon is, she doesn't spend as much time in SL as we poor losers do. Understood. Strange, she "didn't investigate every parcel," yet she found land next to this big build to buy. Really? I didn't see any and I looked fairly thoroughly. And no, we were never friends and definitely won't be sharing any friendship cards or tips or anything of the kind. Go away.
It seems like you have a hard time reading today - let me help you. What I said was:
Actually @Patch Linden - you mentioned awhile ago that you guys would be open to ideas for repurposing land. Is this a good example of that? Would this be a good example of something someone could submit a JIRA for to do something else with for the greater SL community?
I don't see anything about me. I don't see 'Feorie Frimon' and I don't see anything about me implying that I had a grand idea for it.
Completely disingenuous bullshit! Why ask if this is a good example of "development" if you aren't going to bid for it? Again, let's not be children here.
And actually, I posted less than an hour MORE CLARITY. See below!
ExpandI agree with this!
I think finding a way to merry the two is the only way to help the mainland move forward.
In the example of that Volunteer Space that I love - what if we just updated the links and notecards to go to the right place? What if we added some new trees or information that talked about these old builds - I know I’d love to learn about how that giant robot was built.
I don’t think we need to level it , but let’s just help make it current and informative. Dead links look bad for everyone.
Why am I some villian because I proposed we do something with some land? Or update some links? If you don't like it, say so.... but to imply that I want to collect some old HUB for some weird Master Plan is stupid.
Because this isn't about one person or one build: it's about a system that you hope to institute and hope to benefit from: Actually @Patch Linden - you mentioned awhile ago that you guys would be open to ideas for repurposing land. Is this a good example of that? Would this be a good example of something someone could submit a JIRA for to do something else with for the greater SL community?
This isn't innocent. It isn't merely asking a question. It isn't merely "for the good of humankind". It's self-serving manipulative bullshit that cannot possibly come to any good end.
But hey - to answer your question: why DO I need to think of grand ideas for the public? I don't and I never implied that I need to. But why can't I offer up suggestions ? Because they aren't whatever you think they should be? Why am I not allow to try things or offer up suggestions? Or, like you suggested, use my own $$ to pay for things... like I have been?
Notice again this manipulative tactic of claiming that if someone pushes back against YOUR power-play, if someone expresses THEIR opinion, this is "trying to silence them". If Feorie were satisfied paying for her own ideas with her own money, why the hell is she even raising this: Actually @Patch Linden - you mentioned awhile ago that you guys would be open to ideas for repurposing land. Is this a good example of that? Would this be a good example of something someone could submit a JIRA for to do something else with for the greater SL community?
Why this sudden urge to do good "for the greater SL community"?
I've now said this three times - I don't want anyones free land. I pay $150 USD a month for my own tier and am not looking to get anymore land - and the implication that you think that I am is not only unfounded, but pure speculation and gross rumor mongering. I have gotten in trouble on these forums for saying that free land for in world groups is shady - so it makes perfect sense for me to try and get clarity on it. You know what you are doing is wrong, but I guess it's my turn to get a tongue lashing from you.
I'm not doing anything wrong, however. Once again, this is what Feorie wrote: Actually @Patch Linden - you mentioned awhile ago that you guys would be open to ideas for repurposing land. Is this a good example of that? Would this be a good example of something someone could submit a JIRA for to do something else with for the greater SL community?
What's "gross rumour mongering" about a sentence like THAT? Do tell.
Let me ask you a question - why DON'T YOU offer up some solutions with actual action to help any of these problems? Because, with all do respect @Prokofy Neva, you come in here and rip me apart all the time, but you never offer solutions in a positive way. You just talk about how much LL sucks, or everyone else sucks, or everyone is trying to do this to you, or destroy that for you, or if someone isn't doing what you want, then they are doing something bad somewhere else.
I get to criticize anything I like, just as Feorie does. I called her out some months ago on the forums for revealing something that I planned to do that was told to her in confidence -- the idea of the Mainland Embassy of Ross. I discussed this in great detail with her. I made it very clear that it shouldn't be publicized because then it might be pre-emptively foreclosed. Yet she went and discussed it on the forums, which could have ensured its failure. She had no sense of this destructiveness -- or did, and didn't care. She then made a casual apology like "oops, sowwies." Total bullshit. Other than that, I can't think of any challenges to her and this is a total, crazy exaggeration.
Why don't you stop attacking me and take all of that energy and go do something productive with it? Cause this? It isn't productive.
Nope. It's highly productive. I don't want the Lindens' Volunteer Build to be come the venue for JIRA proposals and a resident-run group. I don't even want MY group to bid on such a proposal and win. And that is worth fighting for . It doesn't need anything of the sort. It needs to be left alone like the Parthenon. Exactly one board there needs a script to link to Destinations so you don't have to type it into chat -- and even that isn't worth bothering with. The end. I don't want ANY old Linden build anywhere to become the subject of the JIRA proposals in an unethical and undemocratic and ultimately disastrous project. I bought land here, I have tenants here, I want it to be left alone, the end. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to stop some crazy "development" plan because I see absolutely no benefit to any "general public" or "greater SL community" whatsoever, nor do I trust Feorie to be the judge of what that benefit is. Leave it alone. The end.
Edited 8 minutes ago by Feorie FrimonFeorie Frimon
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No it doesn't need love that is orchestrated by those who can shout loudest on the forums or get the attention of the Lindens in whatever way. The way to provide "love" to the Mainland is to buy it and build on it yourself, the end. If it changes and devalues, move. The end.
Where am I not buying the mainland I'm using? Did you miss thread after thread of me listing my tier payment for said mainland I'm using?
Once again, if that were true, there's be no need for this: Actually @Patch Linden - you mentioned awhile ago that you guys would be open to ideas for repurposing land. Is this a good example of that? Would this be a good example of something someone could submit a JIRA for to do something else with for the greater SL community?
Feorie Frimon
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Meanwhile, I gave up my home there as one of my many cost saving measures due to the sales tax of RL that LL imposes. Did this not affect you? Do you live in a state without sales tax? You don't have to answer that question of course. But I wonder how casually you make suggestions for others. For me, the sales tax is a huge unwelcome cost. It's like renting a new island -- but without having any customers on it to make back the tier! I am going to speak of this in another thread.
There you go assuming - AGAIN. YES, my tier payment is a struggle for me - but what does that matter? It's none of your business! You are over here on me about making 'suggestions for others' when you are literally suggesting that the tax doesn't effect me?
Stop while you are ahead.
The tax on US $150 worth of tier is $13 in my state, and likely less in most others. Where's the struggle over the tax? If the tier is a struggle and you can't rent it out, then abandon it and stop playing the victim. The Mainland existed before you launched your "Operation MyLand" on it; and for that matter existed before I launched my SL Public Land Preserve. There are plenty of other people to "beautify the Mainland" -- there are dozens of groups and people doing all kinds of things.
Prokofy Neva
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ExpandAnd this is where you and me, Prokofy, aren't cool anymore. What you are doing is manipulative and bullying. I have been clear and honest, and I don't appreciate what you're trying to do here. I didn't know you had land there, and I don't care if you accept it. I don't spend nearly as much time as you do in SL, so I definately don't have enough to go investigate the aprcel owners of every single parcel near every place I like on the mainland.
We are friends - or were on each other's Friends List as of...today? Unless you removed me? I guess we shouldn't be friends anymore since apparently we never were...?
It seems like you have a hard time reading today - let me help you. what I said was:
I don't see anything about me. I don't see 'Feorie Frimon' and I don't see anything about me implying that I had a grand idea for it.
And actually, I posted less than an hour MORE CLARITY. See below!
Why am I some villian because I proposed we do something with some land? Or update some links? If you don't like it, say so.... but to imply that I want to collect some old HUB for some weird Master Plan is stupid.
But hey - to answer your question: why DO I need to think of grand ideas for the public? I don't and I never implied that I need to. But why can't I offer up suggestions because..... they aren't whatever you think they should be? Why am I not allow to try things or offer up suggestions? Or, like you suggested, use my own $$ to pay for things... like I have been?
I've now said this three times - I don't want anyones free land. I pay $150 USD a month for my own tier and am not looking to get anymore land - and the implication that you think that I am is not only unfounded, but pure speculation and gross rumor mongering. I have gotten in trouble on these forums for saying that free land for in world groups is shady - so it makes perfect sense for me to try and get clarity on it. You know what you are doing is wrong, but I guess it's my turn to get a tongue lashing from you.
Let me ask you a question - why DON'T YOU offer up some solutions with actual action to help any of these problems? Because, with all do respect @Prokofy Neva, you come in here and rip me apart all the time, but you never offer solutions in a positive way. You just talk about how much LL sucks, or everyone else sucks, or everyone is trying to do this to you, or destroy that for you, or if someone isn't doing what you want, then they are doing something bad somewhere else.
What don't you stop attacking me and take all of that energy and go do something productive with it - cause this isn't it.
This is all arrant nonsense, and of course of the kind that the Lindens do not allow on the forums, and you know it, but you're hoping you'll get away with it. I just finished telling the Wall Street Journal why SL society is more like Russia and China than the US in this regard.
WHY ARE YOU PROPOSING GRAND IDEAS? They can't even be discussed freely and fairly on the forums. You took a huge swipe at my community across from such a build, likely "unconsciously" but it's part of the obliviousness that you lead your SL, not noticing what is around "abandoned or unused land". WE LIVE THERE.
If you don't expect to benefit personally -- and you have a mixture of benefit and loss to all your grand ideas as I'm well aware -- WHY POST ON THE FORUMS?! Hello! You at least imagine that there is a "public" that benefits -- a public as you IMAGINE it. So question that premise. It is well worthy of questioning!
Why did you open up a discussion and @ Patch if you didn't expect either yourself or your friends or your allies to benefit? Please let's not be children here.
Why don't I offer grand solutions for the public? Because we live in an undemocratic society where they cannot be made, as I just explained, without fear or favour to someone somewhere. So I put my grand ideas into practice on my own land, which I pay for. If I happened accidentally to find cheap land near an old build, great, but if some larger force you have unleashed comes tomorrow and undoes it, whatever, I will move again. It's not like I even make back what I put into this area yet, because it is new, and because I have a part of it that I used for my own projects -- which I just moved out of Bellisseria, BTW, due to the tax and the need to downsize.
In fact, I have often posted here very positive ideas for how things could be improved; you're just mad and not remembering them. In fact, I sent to you proposals, inworld, about three things, let's say, that perhaps the Mainland land dealers could agree on and unite around, but which unfortunately, you ended up ignoring or being too busy for, and which frankly, other dealers wouldn't subscribe to with you involved, because they don't trust your schemes. And that's common in SL especially on the Mainland because you can't know everyone's motives. You created a grand idea -- Operation Mainland -- which you wanted everyone to join. First you made it up, and made up its rules ("no skyboxes under 1500 m), THEN you asked people to join, with you in charge. Whose going to sign up for a thing like that? Not me. Because I didn't get to consult and decide on the rules with some semblance of democracy or collegiality. It was by fiat. So I didn't join it. And THAT is the problem. Superstructures in search of a base. Big ideas imposed from the top down. So no thank you. I will push back fast and hard for the principle at stake here, which isn't about you, despite your desire to personalize it and vilify me. Others too timid to speak will get it. NOTHING ABOUT US WITHOUT US. A principle for real life union organizing, and a principle for virtual life as well.
Prokofy Neva
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There you go assuming - AGAIN. YES, my tier payment is a struggle for me - but what does that matter? It's none of your business! You are over here on me about making 'suggestions for others' when you are literally suggesting that the tax doesn't effect me?
Stop while you are ahead.
If it affected you to the extent it does me and other small holders, you would be busy selling, changing, downsizing your holdings and be too busy for the forums, as I have been.
Feorie Frimon
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This is especially obnoxious on your part because the whole reason I bought this land in Sylvia was because I had to FLEE from Dicycla from a badly implemented auction that put an entire no-access wall around all my customers there. I ate the cost of moving them all because the Lindens auctioned off a badly-joined bunch of abandoned land and it sold to a diva who put up "no access", coupled with another diva with no-access, creating a wall. No one was going to fight land barons and divas with half a sim of tier to play with (she later abandoned it and it was chopped up by another bottom feeder of SL into "quick sale" bites). And I told you about all this and you simply forgot it or never paid attention in the first place.
@Prokofy NevaI literally have no idea what you are talking about - so I guess I forgot.
Oh wait...are you SUGGESTING and ASSUMING the WORST ABOUT ME AGAIN? That I didn't pay attention in the first place? Oh, right - I forgot. I'm 'the bad guy' that has been spending all of my time in SL trying to undo whatever land sales you've done and plotting my 'next move' based on whatever you said to me.
Silly, exaggerated nonsense. I don't need to "assume the worst" about Feorie when she wrote: Actually @Patch Linden - you mentioned awhile ago that you guys would be open to ideas for repurposing land. Is this a good example of that? Would this be a good example of something someone could submit a JIRA for to do something else with for the greater SL community?
Are you REALLY serious right now?
Prokofy Neva
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There you go assuming - AGAIN. YES, my tier payment is a struggle for me - but what does that matter? It's none of your business! You are over here on me about making 'suggestions for others' when you are literally suggesting that the tax doesn't effect me?
Stop while you are ahead.
If it affected you to the extent it does me and other small holders, you would be busy selling, changing, downsizing your holdings and be too busy for the forums, as I have been.
1Feorie Frimon
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This is especially obnoxious on your part because the whole reason I bought this land in Sylvia was because I had to FLEE from Dicycla from a badly implemented auction that put an entire no-access wall around all my customers there. I ate the cost of moving them all because the Lindens auctioned off a badly-joined bunch of abandoned land and it sold to a diva who put up "no access", coupled with another diva with no-access, creating a wall. No one was going to fight land barons and divas with half a sim of tier to play with (she later abandoned it and it was chopped up by another bottom feeder of SL into "quick sale" bites). And I told you about all this and you simply forgot it or never paid attention in the first place.
@Prokofy NevaI literally have no idea what you are talking about - so I guess I forgot.
So both inworld chat and a whole thread on the forums didn't stick -- oh, well. I know Feorie is self-preoccupied and I can't expect anybody to care about my little sim troubles. It's merely an explanation of why I won't part with Sylvia willingly, or will have a build go up on that old Linden Volunteer Center that serves the interest of some group with an agenda in SL, whether trains or trees or whatever the hell. Leave it alone.
Oh wait...are you SUGGESTING and ASSUMING the WORST ABOUT ME AGAIN? That I didn't pay attention in the first place? Oh, right - I forgot. I'm 'the bad guy' that has been spending all of my time in SL trying to undo whatever land sales you've done and plotting my 'next move' based on whatever you said to me.
Are you REALLY serious right now?
Feorie Frimon
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WHY ARE YOU PROPOSING GRAND IDEAS? They can't even be discussed freely and fairly on the forums. You took a huge swipe at my community across from such a build, likely "unconsciously" but it's part of the obliviousness that you lead your SL, not noticing what is around "abandoned or unused land". WE LIVE THERE.
If you don't expect to benefit personally -- and you have a mixture of benefit and loss to all your grand ideas as I'm well aware -- WHY POST ON THE FORUMS?!
You are yelling at me for 'not discussing something on the forums' - and literally quoting a forum post that I was discussing it in. You are literally yelling at me for posting an idea on the forums - and also yelling at me for not posting on the forums within two sentences of each other. LOL
I think we both know that it doesn't matter what I do at this point - I won't be able to say anything that won't paint me as some weird mastermind in your head.
Prokofy Neva
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@Prokofy NevaI literally have no idea what you are talking about - so I guess I forgot.
Oh wait...are you SUGGESTING and ASSUMING the WORST ABOUT ME AGAIN? That I didn't pay attention in the first place? Oh, right - I forgot. I'm 'the bad guy' that has been spending all of my time in SL trying to undo whatever land sales you've done and plotting my 'next move' based on whatever you said to me.
Are you REALLY serious right now?
Yeah, you didn't pay attention and/or forgot. The chat histories prove that point. You disappear from virtually ever conversation and don't answer. Maybe your "messages cap". Maybe you are busy in RL. Aren't we all! Whatever. And I'm dead serious. You're exaggerating in obviously silly ways and missing the main point here: every global plan to rescue the Mainland is self-serving, or has some unintended or intended impact on some other group, and cannot be decided in democratic fashion (this is a company not a democracy, remember?). Therefore don't fuel that situation, it's beneath you, if your intentions are sincere, and once again I have cause to question that sincerity. Sweep around your own door.
Edited 1 hour ago by Prokofy Neva
1Feorie Frimon
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If it affected you to the extent it does me and other small holders, you would be busy selling, changing, downsizing your holdings and be too busy for the forums, as I have been.
Are you 'suggesting' that I haven't been doing that? Are you 'suggesting for others' that I haven't made sacrifices of my own? Are you ASSUMING to know about my finances based on what you've seen me post on the forums...or my SL tier land holdings?
Really?
Feorie Frimon
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Yeah, you didn't pay attention and/or forgot. The chat histories prove that point. You disappear from virtually ever conversation and don't answer. Maybe your "messages cap". Maybe you are busy in RL. Aren't we all! Whatever. And I'm dead serious. You're exaggerating in obviously silly ways and missing the main point here: every global plan to rescue the Mainland is serlf-serving, or has some unintended or intended impact on some other group, and cannot be decided in democratic fashion (this is a company not a democracy, remember?). Therefore don't fuel that situation, it's beneath you, if your intentions are sincere, and once again I have cause to question that sincerity. Sweep around your own door.
Cool - I guess I have some nefarious plan for the Volunteer area to level it and acquire it for myself...all just to make your life difficult. Whatever you say @Prokofy Neva.
Um, no, you're just an arrogant bitch who doesn't remember anything told to you -- oh, except plans told in confidence which you remember and blurt out on the forums. OK.
Prokofy Neva
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You are yelling at me for 'not discussing something on the forums' - and literally quoting a forum post that I was discussing it in. You are literally yelling at me for posting an idea on the forums - and also yelling at me for not posting on the forums within two sentences of each other. LOL
I think we both know that it doesn't matter what I do at this point - I won't be able to say anything that won't paint me as some weird mastermind in your head.
Go ahead and miss the larger point here, apparently it is sailing right over your head. It's not a place for discussion of the built-in problem of SL -- the lack of democracy, freedom of the press, an independent judiciary, and much more. So rule the roost if you must, exaggerate in silly ways if you must, I'll keep pointing out the obvious. You proposed a grand scheme. You did it heedlessly and arrogantly and in oblivion. I'm here to point out once again: WE LIVE HERE. I don't like spam cars that constantly mar the view with NO RIDERS. Because WE LIVE HERE. We don't ride them. Yet you and others promote them mercilessly because you must imagine you benefit from them personally or they fit some abstract idea of the "public good" which you decide unilaterally. BUT WE LIVE HERE.
Feorie Frimon
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Go ahead and miss the larger point here, apparently it is sailing right over your head. It's not a place for discussion of the built-in problem of SL -- the lack of democracy, freedom of the press, an independent judiciary, and much more. So rule the roost if you must, exaggerate in silly ways if you must, I'll keep pointing out the obvious. You proposed a grand scheme. You did it heedlessly and arrogantly and in oblivion. I'm here to point out once again: WE LIVE HERE. I don't like spam cars that constantly mar the view with NO RIDERS. Because WE LIVE HERE. We don't ride them. Yet you and others promote them mercilessly because you must imagine you benefit from them personally or they fit some abstract idea of the "public good" which you decide unilaterally. BUT WE LIVE HERE.
What do the PODs have to do with "Grandfathered" mainland parcels"?
Prokofy Neva
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Cool - I guess I have some nefarious plan for the Volunteer area to level it and acquire it for myself...all just to make your life difficult. Whatever you say @Prokofy Neva.
If you think your various Saul Alinsky type rhetorical flourishes are effective, you've come to the wrong address. The record shows what I stated, which was certainly not any plan of my own to level this build, or repurpose it to my liking or do anything at all with it other than leave it alone. Because as I've said now a dozen times in answer to all your fulminations here, it is not for you or me to decide the public interest. For better or worse, the Lindens do that, perhaps with some eye to actual public interest, but since this is decided in a warped and often random fashion, or in ways to benefit only some favoured party, I'm not for doing this. There are 1,000 ways to improve the Mainland -- I do it on the 14 sims I own. Do you? Great! Then do more. Get others to do more. Giving the Lindens grand plans for repurposing their builds and picking one build at random has done exactly as I've suggested: a) benefited you and/or some other party; b) harmed a party (me and others in this area who own land). So stop, already. Just stop.
Prokofy Neva
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What do the PODs have to do with "Grandfathered" mainland parcels"?
Feorie, are you utterly oblivious or is this a bot or a collective with different writers? Did you forget that YOU are the one who raised the question of old Linden builds which are NOT even the topic of your original post, these unused individual parcels. You got the wrong idea that the Charter parcels were "whole swathes" which bothered you immensely -- and I pointed out they aren't whole swathes whatsoever. You proposed a grandiose scheme for "repurposing" old Linden builds (which is not the same topic of "grandfathered parcels" (and we don't even know the actual state of affairs or the reasoning of them because LL doesn't tell us).
Why? You don't like the Linden train station near the one area you bought and developed which didn't rent? You saw the Tenera build and thought wouldn't this be great to update? I can buy land nearby. Or whatever you thought.
In the same way, since you yourself depart from your OP about "grandfathered parcels" to "unused Linden builds," the pods have everything to do with the topic of who makes grandiose schemes -- and implements them -- for the Mainland. The maker of the pods, their fan base, and the Lindens, who cynically just need a way to load test without bots or their staff, got together and pushed this "solution" on the Mainland. We didn't get any imput it, despite owning land they pass through on Linden roads. We do not benefit whatsoever from it -- in my 18 years of Second Life, I had exactly ONE customer who rented a parcel because she passed it while on a pod ride. People can ride horses and even cats in SL, not to mention teleport, so these pods -- which are nearly 100% riderless as any honest transparency of their statistics would prove -- are not needed. They could be ON DEMAND and stop spamming up the highways of SL. The debate is what sort of grand plan there should be for the Mainland. To which I can only add now: none decided in this fashion, undemocratically. We already have several such "grand ideas" implemented or trying to force their way into implementation (SLRR fans). So I'm not for doing this. It is not in good will. It is inevitably to the harm of some party somewhere.
Somebody proposes more waterways for the "public" to enjoy sailing to Bellisseria. Turns out, that merchant sells Bellisseria house add-ons. There's always an angle. There is no public. There is no one honestly deciding the public interest in SL.
Feorie Frimon
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Giving the Lindens grand plans for repurposing their builds and picking one build at random has done exactly as I've suggested: a) benefited you and/or some other party; b) harmed a party (me and others in this area who own land). So stop, already. Just stop.
You can try and humiliate me, twist my words, imply I meant something I clearly didn't, defame me, bully me, talk about me behind my back, gas light around me - whatever you want.
But, I'll never stop making suggestions.
I'll never stop encouraging other people to make suggestions, I'll never stop trying to find a way to make the abandoned parts of Secondlife have new life again.
I'll never try and make someone feel like they can't make suggestions, too, and I'll stand with anyone who's offering up a positive suggestion - especially if you are trying to bring them down.
So if you don't want to hear it, mute me.
Is she Joan of Arc or Mother Theresa or the Queen of Sheba? Or all three rolled into one? "Ours is a high and lonely destiny."
Edited 56 minutes ago by Feorie FrimonProkofy Neva
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ExpandYou can try and humiliate me, twist my words, imply I meant something I clearly didn't, defame me, bully me, talk about me behind my back, gas light around me - whatever you want.
But, I'll never stop making suggestions.
I'll never stop encouraging other people to make suggestions, I'll never stop stop always trying to find a way to make the abandoned parts of Secondlife have new life again.
I'll never try and make someone feel like they can't do the same, and I'll stand with anyone who's offering up a positive suggestion - especially if you are trying to bring them down.
So if you don't want to hear it, mute me.
Nope. I will do one better. I will respond swiftly and forcefully on the forums, until YOU force the closing of a thread, against "big ideas" for the Mainland because these ideas inevitably help some parties and harm others, the end. The Lindens already found a way to breathe new life into SL. It's called "Bellisseria". Do you have even one of these parcels? Let's see. I had 7? Now I'm downsizing to 3-4. Because of the tax. Your notion of what is "up" and what is "bringing down" is so selective and self-serving that it can't be taken seriously. And it doesn't take me to point this out. You need to be more aware. So have the last word if you like: the forums are not a free or fair venue for discussions of business or the "public interest".
Feorie Frimon
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So have the last word if you like: the forums are not a free or fair venue for discussions of business or the "public interest".
I think this is honestly the saddest thing anyone has ever said about these forums.
If we can't discuss 'Public Interest' projects here on the Secondlife Forums, where are we suppose to discuss them? Show me.
If I'm not suppose to be talking about anything like 'public interest' projects, business, PODs, or ideas here on the forums, then tell me where I can talk about them and I'll take all of my 'annoying ideas' there.
Feorie Frimon
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ExpandIn fact, I have often posted here very positive ideas for how things could be improved; you're just mad and not remembering them. In fact, I sent to you proposals, inworld, about three things, let's say, that perhaps the Mainland land dealers could agree on and unite around, but which unfortunately, you ended up ignoring or being too busy for, and which frankly, other dealers wouldn't subscribe to with you involved, because they don't trust your schemes. And that's common in SL especially on the Mainland because you can't know everyone's motives. You created a grand idea -- Operation Mainland -- which you wanted everyone to join. First you made it up, and made up its rules ("no skyboxes under 1500 m), THEN you asked people to join, with you in charge. Whose going to sign up for a thing like that? Not me. Because I didn't get to consult and decide on the rules with some semblance of democracy or collegiality. It was by fiat. So I didn't join it. And THAT is the problem. Superstructures in search of a base. Big ideas imposed from the top down. So no thank you. I will push back fast and hard for the principle at stake here, which isn't about you, despite your desire to personalize it and vilify me. Others too timid to speak will get it. NOTHING ABOUT US WITHOUT US. A principle for real life union organizing, and a principle for virtual life as well.
I legitimately don't even understand what this means.
You are mad that I started a group with building principles that you didn't agree to.... and that I wanted to encourage people to join?
And somehow that is bad...because I didn't consult with you? ....... I didn't even know you when I started working on the Operation Mainland Project?
Feorie is so self-centered and so unused to dealing with any sort of peer of interest group outside her own narrow construction that she can't understand what is wrong with making a grandiose group called "Operation Mainland," drawing up principles with no discussion whatsoever, even blessing the hideous Mole kiosk "Good Neighbour" nuisance along the way without any comprehension, and then telling people they can sign on to them -- without any debate or adjustment or redaction. Honestly, I think this self-discredits.
I guess I don't understand what I did wrong - was it not coming to the forums posting a thread first before I made the Operation Mainland group - so everyone could decide on the goals of a project that started as a series of videos I was doing? The project has evolved ALOT from the beginning and it's about to evolve again too.
Yeah, a closed group of realtors to corner the market on...whatever. Helping others by helping oneself? What's the plan? If you imagine that you are making a "community group" for the "good of the community," it might be a good idea to actually discuss the goals with said community? Why does this need explaining?
Or because I didn't want to 'team up' to do the stuff you sent in that notecard? I mean, yeah - you sent me some notecards and a link to a Discord channel...but, like...what did I do wrong there? You sent me information on things you were doing - I've offered to help if you needed any help. Was I suppose to do something with that stuff? You didn't ask me to do anything or say you needed anything from me?
Um, these weren't "things I was doing" -- that shows you either how dense or carelessly ignorant Feorie is in this regard. What I did was try to figure out what was the least common denominator that would enable various land dealers to cooperate -- challenging ad farms was one of them. Clearly many of them didn't want to sign on to Operation Myland -- it's her thing. Clearly they weren't impressed with buying and developing abandoned land -- all kinds of people do that, and better. So despite objections to her and her methods (!), I tried to find a way that possibly people could act together without liking or trusting each other.
I don't get it.
P.S. Oh..and something else I'm sure you won't like? I like Leaders, CEOs, and Boards of Trustees, but I'm fundamentally against Unions...so maybe thats why we won't ever see eye to eye. 
the PS...
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