Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor
Read @prokofy to follow this prolonged debate with the Contraptioneers; see this blog and that blog and the other blog.
[13:33] Alkaia Exonar: is this prok?
[13:33] Meridian Maginot: I'm an Contraption shopper!
[13:34] Meridian Maginot: or was!
[13:34] Alkaia Exonar: there you go, try it out prok
[13:34] Meridian Maginot: now take it out of the box and sell it too
[13:34] Meridian Maginot: We don't allow business in a box here
[13:35] Meridian Maginot: For that reason
[13:35] Alkaia Exonar: what do you mean
[13:35] Meridian Maginot: We don't allow people to sell out of boxes items that they did not create or which they don't own and sell out of a box like a gatcha
[13:35] Meridian Maginot: don't you know what "business in a box" is???
[13:35] Alkaia Exonar: It's not selling out of the box, the box is the item
[13:35] Meridian Maginot: it's all the ripped stuff all over SL, like kudzu
[13:35] Alkaia Exonar: The box does the distribution
[13:35] Meridian Maginot: business in a box IS that
[13:35] Alkaia Exonar: no I mean
[13:36] Meridian Maginot: putting a ripped item in a box
[13:36] Meridian Maginot: now take the ripped rip and put it for sale "as is"
[13:36] Alkaia Exonar: The box could be a plate of food, or whatever
[13:36] Alkaia Exonar: It's not a product in a box, the box is the product
[13:36] Meridian Maginot: my God your literalism will kill the world, you kids
[13:36] Meridian Maginot: the product is in a prim box; it is business in a box
[13:36] Meridian Maginot: so let's see you put the rib itself for sale
[13:36] Meridian Maginot: that's important too
[13:37] Meridian Maginot: hello?
[13:37] Alkaia Exonar: I can't put the rib itself for sale as a standalone rib. What I can do is put it for sale as part of, say, my own trash can plate, and redistribute it as a functional item in the same context you originally sold it.
[13:38] Alkaia Exonar: see?
[13:38] Alkaia Exonar: It's a food giver
[13:38] Meridian Maginot: well, gosh, why can't you put the rib itself for sale, Alkaia?
[13:38] Meridian Maginot: given all your abilities
[13:38] Meridian Maginot: why on earth would that be
[13:38] Meridian Maginot: go ahead put it out, and let's see why you can't put it to sale as is
[13:38] Alkaia Exonar: I can take all the food from your trash can cuisine, put them all in a new plate, and then distribute it as a food giver
[13:39] Meridian Maginot: that's not the question
[13:39] Meridian Maginot: the question is can you put it out for sale on its own?
[13:39] Alkaia Exonar: that is the question. It can be redistributed as a functional item.
[13:39] Meridian Maginot: no, then you don't understand the most mass use case in SL
[13:39] Meridian Maginot: put the item out for sale as is
[13:39] Meridian Maginot: if you can't, well, explain why
[13:39] Alkaia Exonar: That's an incredible narrow definition
[13:39] Meridian Maginot: no, it's very wide actually
[13:40] Meridian Maginot: apparently you don't live and work on the Mainland?
[13:40] Meridian Maginot: do you log in often? stay on your RP sim only perhaps?
[13:40] Meridian Maginot: PS if you want to sell a ripped rib distributor, you should make it on "touch" so that people can test it
[13:40] Meridian Maginot: that's what luc and many others do, including me
[13:40] Meridian Maginot: I mean his aren't ripped, nor are mine
[13:40] Meridian Maginot: I pay for all my models and I follow the TOS
[13:41] Meridian Maginot: if it any time I determine I can't follow that TOS then I take it out of my product
[13:41] Alkaia Exonar: I mean if your position is "the only copy protection that is relevant is specifically preventing people from pulling out an object and selling that object as-is, rather than including it in a product" then yes, your copy protection script (which is more than an anti-rez script) does stop that particular occurrence.
[13:41] Alkaia Exonar: It is on touch
[13:41] Alkaia Exonar: it's just for sale right now
[13:41] Meridian Maginot: no it wasn't on touch
[13:41] Meridian Maginot: it was on buy
[13:41] Alkaia Exonar: Want me to rez it back out so you can click it agan?
[13:41] Alkaia Exonar: there you og
[13:41] Alkaia Exonar: touch it
[13:41] Meridian Maginot: I don't even like ribs
[13:42] Meridian Maginot: but would you say this rib will now stay in my inventory?
[13:42] Meridian Maginot: yes or no
[13:42] Meridian Maginot: BTW you may be British and may not realize that there really truly are restaurants in the south in the US
[13:42] Alkaia Exonar: the rib is temp attached, so no. If you purchase the box, then you will have a rib distributor in your inven for as long as you care to keep it
[13:42] Meridian Maginot: that put these dishes out on trash cans
[13:43] Meridian Maginot: so I'm glad you can concede that temp attach means that the general public clicking on this item can't steal the rib
[13:43] Meridian Maginot: the owner could steal the rib if he went through various steps including turning off scripts on his land
[13:43] Alkaia Exonar: temp attach means that regardless of the scripting inside it
[13:43] Meridian Maginot: you concede you can't sell the rib as is, because it would poof before you could sell it
[13:43] Alkaia Exonar: The owner does not need to turn scripts off on land
[13:43] Meridian Maginot: you'd have to put it a box
[13:43] Alkaia Exonar: it can be done very easily in a matter of seconds
[13:43] Meridian Maginot: temp attach is a script, too obviously
[13:44] Alkaia Exonar: You have to put it in a distributor of some sort - it doesn't have to be a box. I could recreate your trash can cuisine, for example
[13:44] Meridian Maginot: look, I do grasp that a "box" is any container, not just this literal prim box
[13:44] Meridian Maginot: but the use case is "business in a box" prevention and most malls, yard sales etc don't allow "business in a box"
[13:44] Alkaia Exonar: Sure, but my point is that it isn't a container for a product, the box *is* the product, in much the same way your trash can lid *is* the product
[13:44] Meridian Maginot: so they can't stop Copybot re-sales except by social cues
[13:45] Meridian Maginot: it's a component of the product, it's the giver
[13:45] Meridian Maginot: and the mashed potatoes etc are the productlets
[13:45] Meridian Maginot: out of which it comes
[13:45] Alkaia Exonar: yes. And I don't think anywhere on the grid disallows you to sell a giver
[13:45] Meridian Maginot: PS were you able to rip the trash can lid and sell that?
[13:45] Alkaia Exonar: Like, your trash can cuisine doesn't run afoul of any laws
[13:46] Meridian Maginot: well no event I've been in has ever objected and I comply with all the rules
[13:46] Meridian Maginot: I'm not here to break them
[13:46] Alkaia Exonar: If I wanted to copybot it it would be trivial to do so, but as is the trash can itself is no trans and I have no desire to try and circumvent that via TOS breaching
[13:46] Meridian Maginot: if I find something is later disallowed, like many of them now require sales prices = to what the model cost
[13:46] Meridian Maginot: I then remove that item from my stores or revise it
[13:46] Meridian Maginot: well I'm glad you concede that you do live under some kind of rule of law
[13:46] Meridian Maginot: even if you believe only in code-as-law
[13:46] Meridian Maginot: that's helpful
[13:46] Meridian Maginot: ok so our work here is done
[13:46] Meridian Maginot: you couldn't sell the ribs as is
[13:46] Alkaia Exonar: But I can full redistribute it as a functional product
[13:47] Meridian Maginot: only by turning off scripts on your land and fetching it out of a box could you put this single rib item for sale
[13:47] Alkaia Exonar: It took under 40 seconds
[13:47] Alkaia Exonar: No, scripts were on the whole time
[13:47] Meridian Maginot: well how many people need to have separate ribs in inventory?
[13:47] Alkaia Exonar: I can do it again right in front of you if you like
[13:47] Meridian Maginot: you think many people wake up in the middle of the night and say "I think I'll get those hot ribs out and have a bite"?
[13:48] Alkaia Exonar: I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm saying
[13:48] Meridian Maginot: oh well one way to put even the thing itself to sale is to go to a no-script sandbox or griefer home
[13:48] Meridian Maginot: no I do actually
[13:48] Meridian Maginot: You just didn't think through all the criminal use cases as I am forced to
[13:48] Meridian Maginot: as just an amateur creator and Mainland rentals agent worlds below your stratosphere
[13:48] Alkaia Exonar: What I'm saying is I could, say, get a vending machine mesh of market, then take all the food items out of your trash can lid, put them in the vending machine, and sell the vending machine with functional food
[13:48] Meridian Maginot: just interested in helping other people buy and sell besides you top creators in the Ren Faire
[13:48] Meridian Maginot: yeah
[13:49] Meridian Maginot: you could make it more aesthetic!
[13:49] Alkaia Exonar: Or less, as I did
[13:49] Meridian Maginot: you could make a table with porcelain dishes and candles!
[13:49] Meridian Maginot: innovate!
[13:49] Alkaia Exonar: here, look, I'll show you how fast you can get a product out
[13:49] Meridian Maginot: I got it
[13:49] Meridian Maginot: I know
[13:49] Meridian Maginot: my scripter, who is no fool, look him up, does too
[13:49] Meridian Maginot: deterrence is the main goal, and making it so people don't fish things out of inventory
[13:49] Meridian Maginot: which lessons the fun
[13:50] Alkaia Exonar: Did your scripter script the trash can cuisine?
[13:50] Meridian Maginot: but hey, if we have to have people fish no-transfer items out of inventory and attach them, we'll do
[13:50] Meridian Maginot: of course
[13:50] Meridian Maginot: and we walked through all the exploits of it
[13:50] Meridian Maginot: we're actually not stupid
[13:50] Meridian Maginot: he especially is particularly clever
[13:50] Meridian Maginot: just not as famous as you but maybe because he didn't attach himself to an Alpha Wolf
[13:50] Meridian Maginot: He values his originality and freedom
[13:50] Meridian Maginot: he answers to no one from what I can tell
[13:51] Meridian Maginot: maybe someday you will break away and achieve that freedom
[13:51] Meridian Maginot: instead of being in someone's shadow
[13:51] Alkaia Exonar: Tell him he can use llGetLinkName to consolidate all the 17 scripts in the trash can lid into just one single script that distributes everything based on what you clicked
[13:51] Meridian Maginot: worshipping at the feet of a giant statue
[13:51] Meridian Maginot: oh ye knows that
[13:51] Meridian Maginot: it's me who wanted to make them separate
[13:51] Alkaia Exonar: why?
[13:51] Meridian Maginot: I mean he can't control what use I make of his scripts
[13:52] Meridian Maginot: because I used them alone in some settings, the dish by itself, or the dish was in other products
[13:52] Meridian Maginot: I mean he could add to the script weight I suppose
[13:52] Meridian Maginot: PS these aren't laggy and aren't like anti-rez
[13:53] Alkaia Exonar: I mean every unnecessary script adds lag. It's pretty trivial to make a script that can handle being standalone or part of a bigger thing
[13:53] Meridian Maginot: indeed
[13:53] Meridian Maginot: so you may not admit it, but you've conceded the use cases that matter for most people
[13:53] Meridian Maginot: most norms
[13:53] Meridian Maginot: most people just in this sector of having to deal with full perm models with a huge variety of TOS/EULAs
[13:54] Meridian Maginot: some of them insanely restrictive and crabby, given what they are, others more lenient
[13:54] Meridian Maginot: but those people work hard with no credit
[13:54] Meridian Maginot: AND THEIR CUSTOMERS AREN'T ALLOWED IN THE MAJOR EVENTS
[13:54] Alkaia Exonar: Not for anti-rez. The exact situation of nm/c/t temp attach items does warrant copy protection (though ideally as part of a single script, instead of standalone). Anti-rez does not function as copy protection in that situation (or any other situation).
[13:54] Meridian Maginot: AND THOSE EVENTS ARE NOT LET IN TO BE ADVERTISED ON SERAPHIM
[13:54] Meridian Maginot: Of course the world of the little people doesn't matter to you and Walton only feigns that it matters
[13:54] Alkaia Exonar: Your specific copy protection very narrowly protects, but does offer more protection than anti-rez (which I said in my tweets), but could be much better
[13:55] Meridian Maginot: I have never, at any juncture in this debate, had anything positive or ameliorative to say about anti-rez
[13:55] Meridian Maginot: I don't use it; I don't buy things with it; but then I hardly buy clothes
[13:55] Alkaia Exonar: What do you mean by "the world of little people"?
[13:55] Meridian Maginot: the world of people making products from full perm meshes
[13:55] Alkaia Exonar: Also the ENTIRE DEBATE was about anti-rez lmao
[13:55] Meridian Maginot: no
[13:55] Meridian Maginot: it was a corrective on behalf of a type of script used for other use cases that might be lumped under anti-rez
[13:56] Meridian Maginot: it might have been a 4 tweet conversation but the only reason it wasn't
[13:56] Meridian Maginot: is because Walton was peremptory and haughty
[13:56] Alkaia Exonar: Copy protection and anti-rez are different (though you should really have your scripter tighten up your copy protection script)
[13:56] Meridian Maginot: Hello There! he writes to me, his customer, who has talked to him quite a few times for years
[13:56] Meridian Maginot: He then conceded this, but his flying monkeys, sensing they needed to on attack mode began threats and mocking and ridicule
[13:57] Meridian Maginot: 1) I know that; but they are lumped together 2) he knows that as well
[13:57] Meridian Maginot: 3) Walton even conceded it, but YOU told him he was wrong!
[13:57] Meridian Maginot: so I dunno, live in your castle, not everybody can be in Engine Room
[13:57] Meridian Maginot: unlikely Engine Room accepts people using mesh models
[13:57] Meridian Maginot: because most major events DO NOT
[13:57] Meridian Maginot: they want original created mesh only
[13:57] Meridian Maginot: because they don't want these very problems of origin and theft
[13:58] Meridian Maginot: understood
[13:58] Meridian Maginot: but the rest of the world wishes to live
[13:58] Meridian Maginot: and we will go on living
[13:58] Meridian Maginot: Likely with less shopping at Engine Room lol!
[13:58] Alkaia Exonar: They aren't lumped together at all. Especially considering we had specific examples (the shuggles script) brought up very early
[13:58] Meridian Maginot: I'm the one who brought up Shuggles
[13:58] Meridian Maginot: precisely because it is open and you can look at it
[13:58] Meridian Maginot: so be a man
[13:58] Alkaia Exonar: Also, yeah, I mean, allowing non-original mesh is a whole can of worms
[13:58] Meridian Maginot: ask Shuggles why he sells a product to girls who imagine they now warded off Copybot
[13:59] Alkaia Exonar: To make money
[13:59] Meridian Maginot: yes, we are worms, I totally get it. In cans, even.
[13:59] Alkaia Exonar: Shuggles and bosh's anti-rez scripts are fully useless
[13:59] Meridian Maginot: yes I get that, but Bosh has lots of useful scripts like resize, colour etc that everyone buys and is happy with
[13:59] Meridian Maginot: I'd rather they use mod than resize but whatever
[13:59] Meridian Maginot: Now there are other use cases besides anti-Copybot which I tried to outline
[13:59] Alkaia Exonar: Not talking about bosh's other scripts, am I?
[14:00] Meridian Maginot: and which Bosh's customers who aren't all dumb twits would explain
[14:00] Meridian Maginot: well Bosh's useless anti-rez script didn't ruin his business
[14:00] Meridian Maginot: and people who use it have other reasons
[14:00] Meridian Maginot: I mentioned them
[14:00] Meridian Maginot: not likely the idea of study of their product in the round by those who didn't figure out how to turn off scripts
[14:00] Meridian Maginot: it's like not everyone figures out you can sit through a locked door
[14:00] Meridian Maginot: a locked door still has uses even with that hack
[14:01] Alkaia Exonar: Anti-rez isn't a locked door though
[14:01] Meridian Maginot: so someone using anti-rez cuts down on the number of people who will not turn off scripts to look at their item inside out
[14:01] Alkaia Exonar: it doesn't.
[14:01] Alkaia Exonar: because you can wear it
[14:01] Meridian Maginot: of course they could go on a poser and look that way
[14:01] Meridian Maginot: they can use their camera and look all around as they are wearing
[14:01] Meridian Maginot: but people like to rez things out like the parrot vest that um En Pointe I think was selling
[14:02] Meridian Maginot: just to see, how can I fix this? How can I adjust it? Or even how can I make a thing like it?
[14:02] Meridian Maginot: so that's what people deter, they don't like that
[14:02] Meridian Maginot: they want you to wear it, adulate them, and shut up
[14:02] Meridian Maginot: you know, like Walton basically wants
[14:02] Alkaia Exonar: If they want to copy it they can just wear it, though. It's not even an inconvenience really.
[14:02] Meridian Maginot: and you imagine that you can take a set of best practices like mod/copy/no transfer and 'a fair price' and deter ripping
[14:03] Alkaia Exonar: yes.
[14:03] Meridian Maginot: I'd invite you to rent land for $25/50 prims and see if you stop overprimming on group land
[14:03] Alkaia Exonar: Not eliminate, but deter.
[14:03] Alkaia Exonar: what does that have to do with anything?
[14:03] Meridian Maginot: I'd invite you to sell the things I sell for low prices on mod and prevent ripping
[14:03] Meridian Maginot: it's just madneess
[14:03] Meridian Maginot: it's just magical thinking
[14:03] Meridian Maginot: it's just you think your magical thinking is better than someone else's
[14:03] Meridian Maginot: OHHHHHH
[14:03] Meridian Maginot: I'M SO GLAD YOU MENTIONED THAT DETERRING INSTEAD OF 100% IS A VALID OBJECTIVE
[14:03] Meridian Maginot: BE STILL MY HEART
[14:04] Alkaia Exonar: Yes. Anti-rez doesn't deter. That's my point.
[14:04] Meridian Maginot: ok I need to wait on customers
[14:04] Meridian Maginot: I didn't say it did
[14:04] Meridian Maginot: I said protection does
[14:04] Alkaia Exonar: The whole convo was about anti-rez
[14:04] Meridian Maginot: no it wasn't, not the original convo with Walter
[14:04] Meridian Maginot: and he conceded that and he eeven apologized for talking down to me
[14:04] Alkaia Exonar: Like, "a reason to use anti-rez" is not "Something that's not anti-rez can deter people in narrow circumstances"
[14:04] Meridian Maginot: I have filed any number of DMCAs on behalf of my builders
[14:05] Meridian Maginot: like the builder of this very building we are standing in
[14:05] Alkaia Exonar: Cool. Keep doing that.
[14:05] Meridian Maginot: I've commissioned numerous such buildings
[14:05] Meridian Maginot: before he was born
[14:05] Alkaia Exonar: That's the one actual redress we have rightn ow
[14:05] Meridian Maginot: so I don't need to be talked down to because I'm not in your posse
[14:05] Meridian Maginot: will never be
[14:05] Meridian Maginot: well no
[14:05] Meridian Maginot: there are many others
[14:05] Meridian Maginot: but evidently beyond the ken of most of your flying monkeys
[14:05] Alkaia Exonar: I'm not talking down to you, and certainly not because you're not part of my "posse"
[14:06] Meridian Maginot: if you think Linden Lab won't lock this viewer and/or block Firestorm when their lawyers find Copybot with Firestorm to be too much of a problem
[14:06] Alkaia Exonar: I'm just trying to tell you what is and is not actually functional protection.
[14:06] Meridian Maginot: I invite you to review what happened with gatchas
[14:06] Alkaia Exonar: Okay, actually, wait
[14:06] Alkaia Exonar: Lets talk about firestorm
[14:06] Meridian Maginot: Again, I have much more hands on, field experience with Emerald griefers and Phoenix liars than you do, surely
[14:06] Alkaia Exonar: I saw (before you blocked me on twitter) that you wrote a big blog post about how like, firestorm is responsible for copybot
[14:06] Alkaia Exonar: Even though the firestorm viewer itself can't copybot
[14:07] Meridian Maginot: it is, because you can't control use of open source software
[14:07] Alkaia Exonar: and, correct me if I'm wrong, but your general point was that they're responsible because people are taking their viewer and altering it to be able to copybot
[14:07] Meridian Maginot: if someone wants to take firestorm code and make all avatars appear green, they can make a viewer like that, and FS can't stop it
[14:07] Meridian Maginot: yes they are responsible
[14:07] Alkaia Exonar: Yes, right
[14:07] Meridian Maginot: you know, like that dad that didn't lock up his guns and his teenage son is now a school shooter
[14:07] Alkaia Exonar: okay, but, firestorm legally has to be open source
[14:07] Meridian Maginot: like that
[14:07] Meridian Maginot: yeah
[14:07] Alkaia Exonar: And if they're open source, they can't stop that
[14:08] Meridian Maginot: well read the contribution agreement -- which, over the years, has been redacted, and which isn't fully complied with even now
[14:08] Alkaia Exonar: So why is it their fault, instead of someone further up the chain
[14:08] Meridian Maginot: the Lindens are too dependent on FS
[14:08] Meridian Maginot: of course it's their moral responsibility and yes, their fault
[14:08] Alkaia Exonar: "Their" here still being the FS team?
[14:08] Meridian Maginot: and again, if this grows to be a significant issue we can see with THESE owners including the attorney from the US Trade Office, they will lock it down
[14:08] Meridian Maginot: Tonya was in Emerald for 3 weeks, he tells us
[14:09] Meridian Maginot: during that time he scrubbed the code furiously to make Phoenix compliant for LL to accept
[14:09] Alkaia Exonar: I'm just confused as to why you think that copybotting is just because of firestorm, and not, say, because LL open sourced their viewer?
[14:09] Meridian Maginot: what is the link between Emerald and Phoenix? Tonya
[14:09] Meridian Maginot: oh of course that's the problem
[14:09] Meridian Maginot: which is why I opposed it from the get go especially as all those goons griefed me and my tenants and crashed our sims for months while Cory Linden laughed
[14:09] Meridian Maginot: sure that's the problem
[14:09] Meridian Maginot: but yeah, did you know my rental script is open source?
[14:10] Meridian Maginot: I've had oh, 6 coders over 18 years work on it and refine it
[14:10] Meridian Maginot: Swear by it!
[14:10] Meridian Maginot: tho it has some glitches now and then
[14:10] Meridian Maginot: Don't want to be a slave of Casper
[14:10] Alkaia Exonar: Because shutting down firestorm wouldn't actually stop (or even slow) copybotters - the hydrastorm is perfectly capable of spoofing itself as an official viewer, and further there are copybot clients that are just flat out based on the SL viewer platform instead of firestorm
[14:10] Meridian Maginot: yeah Open Source runs the Internet! Twitter!
[14:10] Meridian Maginot: And yet...and yet...Tonya scrubbed like a housemaid to get that thing compliant to LL at least optically
[14:10] Alkaia Exonar: So I don't really get why your opinion is that it's FS
[14:10] Meridian Maginot: it's all about the optics
[14:11] Alkaia Exonar: Well, yeah, because emerald had a bunch of issues
[14:11] Meridian Maginot: yeah there are other rogue viewers not related to FS
[14:11] Alkaia Exonar: So why is it FS
[14:11] Meridian Maginot: the Lindens have a variety of ways of stopping them, not all just literal search strings of code
[14:11] Alkaia Exonar: And not the people making the rogue viewers, or LL?
[14:11] Meridian Maginot: because they are in the hands of 90% of the customers
[14:11] Meridian Maginot: The question is why Ll doesn't just buy and or declare FS official
[14:11] Meridian Maginot: because
[14:11] Alkaia Exonar: But they're not actually *doing* anything to encourage or allow copybotting
[14:12] Meridian Maginot: THEY DON'T WANT THE LIABILITY FOR COPYBOT
[14:12] Meridian Maginot: they don't do the things that libsl did to at least declare they weren't encouraging
[14:12] Alkaia Exonar: Like I said, there are currently operating today copybot viewers that operate off the SL viewer codebase
[14:12] Meridian Maginot: like make a core group of devs and not allow certain ones in they knew to be using it to copybot
[14:12] Alkaia Exonar: If that was their worry, they'd be *currently* liable for copybot
[14:12] Meridian Maginot: you should study what Overte does
[14:12] Meridian Maginot: a fork of High Fidelity
[14:12] Alkaia Exonar: They do have a core grgoup of devs
[14:13] Alkaia Exonar: Who are the only people allowed to push code to FS
[14:13] Meridian Maginot: they made a club, as NGOs are called in Germany, it has a small membership fee, they have rules, they voting even
[14:13] Meridian Maginot: imagine if Firestorm did that
[14:13] Alkaia Exonar: they have that
[14:13] Meridian Maginot: one point about a paid fee is RL names
[14:13] Alkaia Exonar: https://www.firestormviewer.org/developers/
[14:13] Alkaia Exonar: That's the list of people allowed to contribute
[14:13] Meridian Maginot: Jessica gets skittish even if her RL corporation on a government web site is published, and gets Hamlet to block the image
[14:13] Meridian Maginot: reidiculous
[14:13] Meridian Maginot: but anyone can take the code as you have stated and they have stated
[14:14] Alkaia Exonar: I mean, tying their RL names to that wouldn't change anything because *it's still not firestorm doing the copybotting*
[14:14] Alkaia Exonar: Yes
[14:14] Meridian Maginot: and being in that club of "allowed to contribute" did they make a public pledge never to use Copybot? I missed that
[14:14] Alkaia Exonar: Anyone can take the code because that's a legal requirement
[14:14] Meridian Maginot: you want to keep exonerating them
[14:14] Meridian Maginot: yes that's what open source is
[14:14] Meridian Maginot: and the LL viewer is an open source viewer, more's the pity
[14:14] Meridian Maginot: and PS search is terribly crippled
[14:14] Meridian Maginot: I personally prefer Alchemy, has the best search UI
[14:14] Meridian Maginot: wonder why Cinders left FS
[14:14] Alkaia Exonar: I just don't understand why you're pointing at FS as the reason copybot thrives
[14:15] Meridian Maginot: I should ask her
[14:15] Meridian Maginot: she's my tenant
[14:15] Alkaia Exonar: Instead of at the open source LL viewer
[14:15] Alkaia Exonar: or the copybotters themselves
[14:15] Meridian Maginot: because they are the largest market share of users, Oz won't tell you the numbers; no one will; but it's got to be 90% plus
[14:15] Alkaia Exonar: Right but why does that matter?
[14:15] Meridian Maginot: I poll my tenants and I see that only newbies and people with some beef with FS use the regular viewer
[14:15] Alkaia Exonar: If FS didn't exist, those users would just be on a different viewer
[14:15] Meridian Maginot: Did Firestorm core devs take a public pledge not to use Copybot?
[14:16] Alkaia Exonar: If someone came out with a copybot viewer based on alchemy, would that be cinder's fault?
[14:16] Meridian Maginot: yes it would indeed
[14:16] Meridian Maginot: Since CInders is not in the mind meld with you all, e.g. on the spam pods on roads, and other issues
[14:16] Meridian Maginot: she might say "I insist all my core devs take the pledge"
[14:16] Alkaia Exonar: so even if you legally have to have your code available for download, you are responsible for whatever any random person on the internet does by changing that code?
[14:17] Alkaia Exonar: it's not the core devs creating copybot viewers
[14:17] Meridian Maginot: "if we catch any of our little friends using Copybot we ban them from our land/stores/homes etc"
[14:17] Meridian Maginot: Did they take a public pledge saying that?
[14:17] Meridian Maginot: you're not answering that
[14:17] Meridian Maginot: you who have magical thinking about mod, good prices, and bein decent to customers
[14:17] Meridian Maginot: which are all organic principles of decency that you are hesitant to approve on other fronts
[14:17] Alkaia Exonar: I mean, I'm not sure if they have or haven't, but would making that pledge absolve them of responsibility in your eyes?
[14:18] Alkaia Exonar: I don't have magical thinking lol
[14:18] Meridian Maginot: The question to ask if why they haven't taken such a pledge
[14:18] Alkaia Exonar: I just think addressing the whys is good
[14:18] Alkaia Exonar: Because it's a meaningless pledge?
[14:18] Meridian Maginot: and you know full well that in their own ranks, the debate would go like this:
[14:18] Alkaia Exonar: I've never taken a pledge like that. Have you?
[14:18] Meridian Maginot: "but I use Copybot to debug which is a good thing"
[14:18] Meridian Maginot: "But I just use Copybot to adjust my RP clothing personally"
[14:18] Meridian Maginot: "but I just use Copybot to see what the rogues are up to these days, it's research"
[14:18] Meridian Maginot: therefore we can't take that pledge
[14:19] Meridian Maginot: Yes, I'm happy to take the pledges of my world, I don't use bots at all of any kind
[14:19] Meridian Maginot: none
[14:19] Meridian Maginot: they use up resources
[14:19] Alkaia Exonar: Yes but have you actually taken that pledge
[14:19] Meridian Maginot: I don't ad farm, ever, never do I sell a $16 parcel for anything more than $1/m
[14:19] Meridian Maginot: etc
[14:19] Meridian Maginot: of course
[14:19] Meridian Maginot: I've had to put it on my blog over and over
[14:19] Meridian Maginot: as this army of griefers claiming to be Ravenglass bots
[14:19] Meridian Maginot: who aren't even bots
[14:20] Meridian Maginot: invade groups and shout racist Trumpkin crap
[14:20] Meridian Maginot: I'm an Obama and Biden voter
[14:20] Meridian Maginot: I don't invade groups to sell my rentals
[14:20] Meridian Maginot: but an easy way to get people mad at me is to invade groups with the name "RavenglassBot!"
[14:20] Meridian Maginot: and shout crap
[14:20] Meridian Maginot: and it takes the Lindens five minutes to ban them
[14:20] Meridian Maginot: but it takes months to get people to realize they aren't me
[14:21] Meridian Maginot: so yeah, I know how griefers work and I know about pledges
[14:21] Meridian Maginot: OK Alkaia, you didn't take the pledge, you didn't do a lot of things
[14:21] Meridian Maginot: but thanks for your time and your tips
[14:21] Meridian Maginot: it's all appreciated
[14:21] Meridian Maginot: I need to help some customers
[14:21] Meridian Maginot: bye
Comments