I was dismayed to hear on a recent prominent SL vlog with Lindens that the "ad farm problem has been eliminated". Not on your life. I don't know where this idea could come from.
Those of us who live here know that they persist, everywhere. Sometimes they are cut-up 16m2 squares set to extortionist prices, more than one per sim. THAT should be actionable by Linden, as far as I know, even today, although any ARs or tickets on Legacy Mainland can take forever to get attention now that Bellisseria gets the lion's share of CS (e.g. took me 9 months to get coloured prims in the sky and on the ground all on physics to be removed from a no-show neighbour's lot.)
In this example, there's also improper use of the LL logo and terminology.
Buggy Show Landowner Function
BTW here's a vivid example of one of the many annoyances that persist for months and years on end crippling Mainland work these days -- the entire world goes dark when you set "show" to "land owners". So you can hardly tell the colours apart and you move around in the dark trying to determine if there are any hidden traps in a given piece of land for sale or abandoned. That should be fixable. That it hasn't been fixed is merely a function of how few people use the regular SL viewer especially for more advanced actions like this.
What is Extortion?
One issue is that the Lindens (and anybody) can differ on what is meant by "extortion". In a free land market, you want to enable the quality land like Blake waterfront to be as high as anyone will pay, and the scrub land like the flat checkerboard of post-land-baron chop-ups *behind* a Blake Sea sim to go for the price of dog food before the current recession, i.e. $0.02/m.
So if ad farm land is set to $200 for a 16m, some might think this "reasonable" and a civic-minded person might thing, "Let me buy that and beautify it so that it doesn't turn to junk."
Not Good Neighbours
Everyone's idea of beauty can differ, but I hope by now that people understand that the cynical way in which Abnor Mole's well-intentioned "Good Neighbour" obelisk has been deployed by cynical advertising micro-barons means that no one else should ever put out this outdated sculpty. Flowers or a bench? A tasteful sign directing people to some public nature preserve? I think that temptation should be resisted, as you are only fueling the madness even with a $200 or even $50 purchase. Unless a neighbour who wanted to tier down sold you that 16 m or 32 m for $1/m or less, it is suspect in our environment.
Bring Back Arbor?
To be sure, there was a time when a campaign around such parcels seemed merited, namely, the Arbor Project, whereby people would actually buy such nuisances and beautify them and put only tasteful signage or benches regarding the project itself. This was to make a point with the Lindens. Can that point be made now? I don't think so. But maybe?
Mr. Lee's Hong Kong
Years ago, at a Virtual Worlds conference, I ran into an individual who the man behind "Mr. Lee's Hongkong" -- the name obviously taken from the Snowcrash character -- no longer in SL. He would chop up parcels of 16 m or 32 m, even next to pristine waterfront, and charge $10,000 for them. In my newbier days, I bought one out of exasperation with land I treasured in one of my favourite sims never renting due to this blight. "Why?" I asked.
"It was an interesting experiment." This person didn't need to make money; he was a computer programmer at a top firm making in the high six figures (this was 15 years ago).
The history of failed Mainland experiments and policies is littered with such individuals with ambitious for grid-wide fame, nearly all of whom are no longer in SL.
Ecology of Ad Farming
The ecology of ad farming isn't just about one bad individual chopping up his auction win or abandoned grab into bits because it wouldn't sell in a bigger piece (a very common reason for ad farming). If a newb starting out makes this mistake and ruins his reputation, it's fixable, but that's not the lion's share of cases.
It's because there are powerful enablers of this type of predatory business -- and not only LL indifference.
Several large barons unabashedly rent out or sell micro-parcels for big money to large ad agencies keen on despoiling the roadside or even the middle of a waterfront parcel with their large and often spinning signs. Why? Because some people click on them, even if only to attempt to AR them and find out the names.
There are others with obscure missions and purposes who keep scripted boxes on such parcel, to do what, who knows. Scrape land for sale to buy, now that land bots are banned? Merely follow traffic, to see if that sim might be worth placing a store in? Just to gather data because it's fun? I have no idea. You can't see the script, and some of these scripted box owners seem to have long since become inactive in SL.
There are also artists who join these little, repetitive trios of bottom-scraping micro-barons, ad agencies, and big land barons to put out "art" -- about which people also differ -- in part to "greenwash" their ad-farming operations.
BTW, as has been the case for years, among the key users of roadside billboards are island dealers. "Come to the private islands and you won't have an ugly view like this Mainland you see, which I, too, and helping to make ugly." I recall in the days of yore, a certain gentleman island baron put up humorous signs of the Victorian etching type -- "Charles, you worm!" where the wives would urge their husbands to take them away from the Mainland.
But we live here.
Ban Sale or Even Rezzing on Microparcels?
The Lindens could also ban the renting of such parcels, which are publicly advertised. In fact, I think if they could write code to make all abandoned land dissolve into 16m 2 chunks as they used to before 2005, which sparked this insanity, they can write code making it impossible even to rez a prim, let alone set for sale, any land smaller than X. Preventing re-sale alone might be helpful, but given that the way around the rules, such as they are, is now to rent out rather than sell these parcels (so it seems as if one person doesn't have more than one per sim), even preventing rezzing might be a solution, although that's sure to meet with protest somewhere.
Don't Be Part of the Problem
And my own feeling is that outside my two roadside offices, I don't want to be part of the roadside signage problem, just like I don't want to be part of the pollution of the sky with signs. I have exactly 3 such roadside signs across 55 sims. One is in an area where I once owned a fair amount of land by a lake, but was forced out by blight engendered from rapacious land barons and chopping. I decided to keep my roadside sign there. In another newer area across from an old historical build, I put up a billboard, the only one I have ever put up. My neighbours on all sides have giant billboards and on this raised aqueduct road, it didn't seem to be such blight. The third one is on a sim where I needed more prims, and bought up some smaller parcels and put them in the group, then put out a few of my signs. It is by chopped-up land with no-access mysteriously near it, by a huge build involving encroachment over a Linden bridge (well, we all have done that) so there haven't been any complaints. If there ever were, I would act. So far, I've only had one complaint about a micro-parcel I kept underwater near a Linden easter egg with a fairy door which could take you to a site in the land preserve. Being a fairy door, and underwater, it's unobtrusive. But a nearby owner claims to have been driven mad by this parcel, mainly because for the weeks before I put the fairy door, she couldn't understand why I kept such a parcel. I wish she'd ask this question more broadly, regarding the obvious extortionist ad farms and billboards on and around this sim as they are the greater vexation.
Linden-Run Networked Roadside Ad Agency
Again, my solution is for LL to take over roadside advertising service and put up a variety of tasteful billboards, small signs, and little parks with tasteful signage for reasonable prices. This networked system could also supply to the ad buyer more granulated information like time of day and day of week and number of clicks.
I think when you have a problem like this, you can't eliminate it and leave empty land that will always demand to be filled by somebody. You need to displace it with another program.
Linden Resistance to Ad Agency
Brent accepted my question about this in a recent SLB19 meeting but then got it all wrong. His reply was that "we don't want ugly billboards" -- and the understanding that the ad farm problem was "solved" -- but in fact WE ALREADY HAVE ugly billboards, chopped up land, extortionist prices, and curiously, a world with too much advertising of the wrong kind and not enough of the right kind, making it hard to put a willing seller in front of a willing buyer of any type.
The Lindens could make this a source, not a sink, they could rotate the ads and also demand that they be PG, and make revenue. They need cash like everyone else in the Recession. They should also go back to selling their splash screen space to big ad buyers. A networked ad system that looks good and functions and doesn't try to make you buy the land under it to "buy back the view" is what the Mainland sorely needs. Rejecting this idea in the name of "avoiding blight" is merely to concede that other actors with worse intent get to keep occupying the space.
And my long-standing request to put the ad capacity back at infohubs like Waterhead, where they once functioned just fine, can't cite "blight" or "large billboards" as the reason, as they were small tablet sized signs. The Lindens should have staff circuit-ride through their infohubs more often and remove obscene babblers in Voice, eject lost bots, and look at uploaded ad signs to make sure they are PG.
Nice rant but it's a buyer's market.
If people are stupid enough to pay that kind of RL money for a piece of virtual land, hey I'll sell you a box of fresh sl air for $5k, 2 for 8k
ExpandI was dismayed to hear on a recent prominent SL vlog with Lindens that the "ad farm problem has been eliminated". Not on your life. I don't know where this idea could come from.
Those of us who live here know that they persist, everywhere. Sometimes they are cut-up 16m2 squares set to extortionist prices, more than one per sim. THAT should be actionable by Linden, as far as I know, even today, although any ARs or tickets on Legacy Mainland can take forever to get attention now that Bellisseria gets the lion's share of CS (e.g. took me 9 months to get coloured prims in the sky and on the ground all on physics to be removed from a no-show neighbour's lot.)
It is interesting to me that they intervened. I had thought that they maybe intervened a few years ago when I reported an absent neighbours floating remains of a conference suite, the structure had gone leaving an assortment of chairs, a pot plant and half a table floating 20m in the air. hovering over the back of my parcel. It looked very much like they had got tired of returning their stuff and then just left the job of clearing it half done. I reported it and nothing happened for months and then it was gone. Leaving me unsure if my report had been effective or if the tidy up was just coincidental.
The prevailing opinion on the forums is expressed by Belinda above that people can do what they want on their mainland without consequence. Your experience and mine would seem to indicate whilst not high on Governance's priorities they do sometimes intervene.
That is to me interesting.
For the most part my neighbours all seem considerate. Although there is one that has left assorted junk on their parcel and bumped up the cost to buy it to 150,000L$. I have built up around them, it hides their trash and their banlines, I have no need to buy them out and I can't see anyone else paying that sort of money for a landlocked mess.
Edited by AethelwineExpandIt is interesting to me that they intervened. I had thought that they maybe intervened a few years ago when I reported an absent neighbours floating remains of a conference suite, the structure had gone leaving an assortment of chairs, a pot plant and half a table floating 20m in the air. hovering over the back of my parcel. It looked very much like they had got tired of returning their stuff and then just left the job of clearing it half done. I reported it and nothing happened for months and then it was gone. Leaving me unsure if my report had been effective or if the tidy up was just coincidental.
The prevailing opinion on the forums is expressed by Belinda above that people can do what they want on their mainland without consequence. Your experience and mine would seem to indicate whilst not high on Governance's priorities they do sometimes intervene.
That is to me interesting.
For the most part my neighbours all seem considerate. Although there is one that has left assorted junk on their parcel and bumped up the cost to buy it to 150,000L$. I have built up around them, I have no need to buy them out and I can't see anyone else paying that sort of money for a landlocked mess.
Well, I think there are gradations of junk the Lindens will respond to.
Yes, there is the sacrosanct core of SL, "I get to do WTF I want on my land" and the Lindens uphold this if the items don't violate their TOS as such, but are just an aesthetic or noise problem, like unfinished plywood left out in the sun for years or a noisy YouTube player that no one can find in a complex build to block and shut up. These things they won't touch.
Except...very rarely, they do. When autoreturn is left off in 2007 by one of those accounts that got a free parcel, evidently, and never came back, and where junk piles up crazily on it, sometimes Lindens can be persuaded to remove everything but the owners' prims and put on autoreturn.
Something up in the air driving you crazy for years -- no, they don't usually respond.
In the case of those prims on physics, that was a multi-sim-wide griefer attack. The watermelon colour prims were all over -- I and others removed them and AR'd the griefer. this wasn't enough for them to entirely remove them from the sim -- and that account.
This "Governance2 Linden" (they never seem to have more human names apparently in an effort to prevent cults of personality -- and therefore vectors of attack -- growing up around them as happens with other Moles) told me that I should always make sure ARs have the name of the owner of the prim, a picture, and as much detail as possible.
Sometimes in grief attacks, unless you turn off particles soon enough and grab one of the prims, you can't see a name, so in those cases I just put "Governor Linden" herself as the name.
The real crux of this issue, however, is this: must you remain in AR purgatory and even hell, or can you go to SUPPORT and file a normal ticket as you would if it were only a Linden tree encroaching on your land?
I wish things of this nature would be treated just as natural disasters that just require garbage removal and not require a whole "Governance" study as to actors, their intentions, and their actions.
In this latest Governance video, the Lindens seem to imply you *can* send tickets to Support and not merely AR them. They mention that you cannot complain about griefing/garbage in Live Help or on telephone help, but then they say it can be filed with Support.
I almost wondered if they misspoke, as we are always told that they must be AR'd and Support won't act.
Even so, after I've filed repeated abuse reports, as have others, I usually do go to Support and try to get them to agree to escalate the ticket, citing all the past email copies of my ARs, and sometimes it works.
Edited by Prokofy NevaNice rant but it's a buyer's market.
If people are stupid enough to pay that kind of RL money for a piece of virtual land, hey I'll sell you a box of fresh sl air for $5k, 2 for 8k
So when it's a "buyers' market," sellers get to behave badly and devalue all the land already previously purchased by previous buyers? Why?
So when it's a "buyers' market," sellers get to behave badly and devalue all the land already previously purchased by previous buyers? Why?
Because they can.
Because they can.
Apart from where doing so results in governance applying the consequences of the ad farming policy to them?
Edited by AethelwineA neighbour on a parcel can create dozens of alts sit them on prims blockading access, they can fill up parcels pushing objects into them, they can create insulting textures and display them on prims overlooking you. Ultimately the neighbour and the hundred and more alts were banned and lost there land. They were banned for things they could do and anyone can do.
Because someone can is not a good reason.
- You, Sparkle Bunny, Always Incognito and 3 others
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… the entire world goes dark when you set "show" to "land owners". So you can hardly tell the colours apart and you move around in the dark trying to determine if there are any hidden traps in a given piece of land for sale or abandoned.
Now that you mention it, that is pretty awful, but I haven't used World / Show / "Land owners" in any viewer for years, instead choosing the "Property Lines" option; using that seems easier to detect who owns what in a region—especially compared to the murky mess of "Land owners". To me, it looks equally gloomy in Catznip and Firestorm, at least with my settings, so I wonder if it was maybe some change coinciding with EEP that made it so dark.
I'd probably quibble about Arbor Project's history (although it ended up owning some microparcels, I don't think it ever supported anybody buying them). Anyway, the group still exists and I could imagine it playing a useful role in a renewed anti-adfarm struggle. Pretty sure I've seen it get some landcutting fixed within the last year, using Policy-citing abuse reports by multiple Concierge-level accounts. (Maybe now we should expand the ranks with some Premium Plus members, to add gravitas. 😛 )
There's more in this thread I haven't even read yet. I see the Radical Free Market Fundamentalists have a spokesperson, so it's bound to be a bloodbath eventually. I feel a sermon on the Tragedy of the Commons coming on! Maybe we could get a senior Linden to join the thread for a responsive reading of the Mainland Policy for the practicality challenged.
ExpandNow that you mention it, that is pretty awful, but I haven't used World / Show / "Land owners" in any viewer for years, instead choosing the "Property Lines" option; using that seems easier to detect who owns what in a region—especially compared to the murky mess of "Land owners". To me, it looks equally gloomy in Catznip and Firestorm, at least with my settings, so I wonder if it was maybe some change coinciding with EEP that made it so dark.
I'd probably quibble about Arbor Project's history (although it ended up owning some microparcels, I don't think it ever supported anybody buying them). Anyway, the group still exists and I could imagine it playing a useful role in a renewed anti-adfarm struggle. Pretty sure I've seen it get some landcutting fixed within the last year, using Policy-citing abuse reports by multiple Concierge-level accounts. (Maybe now we should expand the ranks with some Premium Plus members, to add gravitas. 😛 )
There's more in this thread I haven't even read yet. I see the Radical Free Market Fundamentalists have a spokesperson, so it's bound to be a bloodbath eventually. I feel a sermon on the Tragedy of the Commons coming on! Maybe we could get a senior Linden to join the thread for a responsive reading of the Mainland Policy for the practicality challenged.
I use "Property Lines" of course, and generally keep that turned on all the time, but it's really not enough. And I'm not for advocating workarounds when there are bugs this bad that really would be showstoppers if more people used the SL Viewer. If it is also in Firestorm, then evidently few people use the feature so maybe the Lindens don't feel any motivation, but it seems crazy to me to allow EEP to darken a separate function like this.
Arbor did buy microparcels because how else could they have put their own trees and signs on them? Although not at the high extortionist level, of course. Yes, sometimes they and others get some action, but usually not. What happened is that first, the highly cynical effort to use Abnor's "Good Neighbour" pillar was allowed to persist, often encroaching even on Linden roads, and was designed as such to be psychologically bullet proof and hard to ban. That enabled the other notorious obelisk to persist and spread and still others. As I noted, I think displacement by an official LL system and not banning is ultimately the only solution at this point. I'm certainly not a radical free market fundamentalist and no one can in fact pursue such an agenda in a world where the currency and land supply are controlled by one company. Rather, it's more that *that* state of affairs enables oligarchy as it did in post-communist states in RL and regulation is gamed or worked around.
The Lindens have already basically said their solution to Mainland problems is not on the Mainland, but in Bellisseria, and if people persist that they still want to sail or drive on the Mainland and combat blight, their solution is to say, create enclaves which we will work with, and to which we will funnel events and traffic. I don't find this as viable of course, but then my own solution has always been just to try to account for the land I actually own and rent out and try to keep that nice, cooperating with neighbours where possible, which is more possible than many realize, but also to prudently "buy the view". "Buying the view" has switched in recent years to "abandoning the whole thing" and looking for other untouched areas and hoping the same process doesn't repeat.
I do think it's worth the Lindens re-visiting the resident-to-resident auction system again, but for that to happen we'd need to know about what went wrong with the original system. I personally found it complicated and didn't play it because I felt land barons were still lurking in it. I never have understood why it is so hard to code a system whereby first, let's say for 30 days, only people already owners on a sim are eligible to buy land that goes for sale on that sim. Given that everything on a sim is coded as to size and nature of parcels and owners already, is it really so hard to structure it so only other accounts in that class of data can purchase the land? Of course I may be missing some complications but if PP with all its choices could be coded, so could something like that, no?
Edited by Prokofy NevaArbor did buy microparcels because how else could they have put their own trees and signs on them?
Donated. I spent many hours as part of a team trying to give them away to neighboring landowners. The ones that couldn't find new homes immediately were handed over to the "gardeners" to beautify, but every few months we'd try again, in case there were new neighbors. It was a ridiculous amount of work and recordkeeping.
- You, Eirynne Sieyes, Persephone Emerald and 1 other
- 4
Donated. I spent many hours as part of a team trying to give them away to neighboring landowners. The ones that couldn't find new homes immediately were handed over to the "gardeners" to beautify, but every few months we'd try again, in case there were new neighbors. It was a ridiculous amount of work and recordkeeping.
Yes, I realize there were donations, but it's my understanding that there were some "preventive purchases" or "salvaging" as well. I will ask Timo. There may be brand confusion as Arbor was not the only group trying to do this and some individuals felt they were helping by taking some of these plots out of their misery. Of course it fueled the system. I have refused to buy the extortion ones for years and will wait out any exploiter forever. Sometimes they go away, sometimes not.
So if ad farm land is set to $200 for a 16m, some might think this "reasonable" and a civic-minded person might thing, "Let me buy that and beautify it so that it doesn't turn to junk."
Interesting that you mention that figure.
I used to own forty seven 16 sq m 2x protected parcels, but a rules change made my purpose for having them illegal, so I sold all of them, for a profit I might add.
Lately I've been searching again for micro parcels, and so far have acquired three 16 sq m 2x protected parcels. I would pay up to $200 L for them, but two I got for less. I use them for self advertising, and yes they conform to ALL the ad farming rules. If and when I get tired of them, i can relist them for $500 L each, and I guarantee every one will sell fast (and be immediately relisted for $1000 L or more)
they can write code making it impossible even to rez a prim, let alone set for sale, any land smaller than X
I like that idea. That said, the recent ad signs on micro parcels that I've encountered looked okay, means the mesh boards that the ads were presented on suited the surroundings kind of. I usually find the way, way more visually annoying signs (or annoyances in general) on bigger parcels.
Edited by xDancingStarxExpandInteresting that you mention that figure.
I used to own forty seven 16 sq m 2x protected parcels, but a rules change made my purpose for having them illegal, so I sold all of them, for a profit I might add.Lately I've been searching again for micro parcels, and so far have acquired three 16 sq m 2x protected parcels. I would pay up to $200 L for them, but two I got for less. I use them for self advertising, and yes they conform to ALL the ad farming rules. If and when I get tired of them, i can relist them for $500 L each, and I guarantee every one will sell fast (and be immediately relisted for $1000 L or more)
Well, as you can imagine, I think what you are saying is part of the problem, not part of the solution. But I also imagine you will tell me that people click on your ads and make it worth it. And that's the reasoning behind all ads, attractive or not.
@xDancingStarx I haven't seen these "more beautiful" mesh signs of which you speak but I think it is surely possible to make these sorts of signs better looking and certainly not to have them spin, which is why I suggest the Lindens run such a system.
And then we have these things on 16m parcels all over G land, tons of them. I have had the view from more than one parcel ruined by these. I don't know if they would even be against the rules because they aren't advertising, they are just blight.
And then we have these things on 16m parcels all over G land, tons of them.
There are surely more than 100 micro parcels with these obelisks on the maingrid, all belonging to the same group. Google says it's some military group that may not even be active anymore. The mesh itself looks fine but it's damn big. It's way too inexpensive to hold this many micro parcels. The visual impact of these parcels is disproportionate compared to the money spent.
Edited by xDancingStarxIt's way too inexpensive to hold this many micro parcels. The visual impact of these parcels is disproportionate compared to the money spent.
That's one of the arguments we made that seemed to carry some weight with the Lindens, back when adfarms were a huge problem. Back then, the Lab still entertained the bogus argument that advertising on SL roadways might actually be a thing, as opposed to an exercise in petty extortion as it has always been. It may have sunk in that it was their revenue that adfarms erode, not that of us whining Mainlanders. Eventually they must have realized that all the microparcels owned by every adfarmer, ever, wouldn't total a full region, yet they destroy value of the Lab's whole Land product—vastly exceeding what little they earn in tier. (Something was enough to get the Lindens to overcome their then rabid Libertarian/crypto-anarchist faith, look out for their own interests, and finally regulate the damned things.)
I'm guessing those obelisks are more common on the old Teen Grid regions (now the "Sharp Continent" I guess), based on the "military group that may not even be active anymore" and the Snowlands look of the image: I don't recall encountering any on the Sansara Snowlands, at least along the ONSR where I haunt.
I'd want to measure to be sure, but based on that image they look susceptible to ARs directly citing the official adfarm policy, at least the terms about "must be grounded to the terrain, not floating" and "extend no higher than 8 m from the ground", and maybe others.
[EDIT: Yeah, they're not difficult to find on the Sharp Continent, that's for sure. And they're way taller than 8m, and also non-phantom. I can imagine a Governance person fretting that somebody might find them "historical" and not explicit advertising and on parcels slightly larger than 16 m² —although smaller than the 128 m² size historically considered too suspicious to list in search. They might be worth ARing anyway, just because there are so many of them and they're so intrusive, but it's that very scale that should really be documented in a letter to @Patch Linden because it's his profit center that Governance might be too timid to defend. Do we know: Is there a census of them? And are they all on Sharp?]
[EDIT2: Well, nuts. The owner of (many of?) those obelisks is still active in SL, in fact was logged-in today, according to the member list of an open group. And the obelisk-associated groups still own some larger parcels, too, so it's not a classic adfarm situation. The obelisks are quite the eyesores, scattered on tiny parcels all over that continent for negligible tier, but I can see a legit question of whether they might nonetheless be legit.]
Edited by Qie Niangao- Elena Core and Love Zhaoying
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Expand[EDIT: Yeah, they're not difficult to find on the Sharp Continent, that's for sure. And they're way taller than 8m, and also non-phantom. I can imagine a Governance person fretting that somebody might find them "historical" and not explicit advertising and on parcels slightly larger than 16 m² —although smaller than the 128 m² size historically considered too suspicious to list in search. They might be worth ARing anyway, just because there are so many of them and they're so intrusive, but it's that very scale that should really be documented in a letter to @Patch Linden because it's his profit center that Governance might be too timid to defend. Do we know: Is there a census of them? And are they all on Sharp?]
[EDIT2: Well, nuts. The owner of (many of?) those obelisks is still active in SL, in fact was logged-in today, according to the member list of an open group. And the obelisk-associated groups still own some larger parcels, too, so it's not a classic adfarm situation. The obelisks are quite the eyesores, scattered on tiny parcels all over that continent for negligible tier, but I can see a legit question of whether they might nonetheless be legit.]
Those obelisks have been ARed several times, by several residents and, as far as I know, nothing has been done. Actually, they are growing in number.
Several months ago, there was a discussion on them here in the forum, and the owner of those obelisks contacted most of us who were discussing about it. He mentioned they were going to be replace them by something smaller that wouldn't interfere with other parcels. Again, nothing has changed...
Edited by Elena CoreIt may have sunk in that it was their revenue that adfarms erode
The problem is, if you go by revenue as argument, you would have to prove that people aren't buying land adjacent/close to the microparcels, and I didn't see that in the obelisk case (having looked at a very few examples only, not considering land that is unwanted in the first place.) Maybe land next to them would have a significantly higher L$ value if they weren't present but that's speculation.
I've added the following screenshots just for fun and in reference to my point earlier in this thread. Same position and viewing angle, second screenshot has a 16m wider draw distance. I admit that the obelisk triggers me way less than the large parcel that appears in the background.
Idea: Require Ad Farms to use an entire Region. That way, they actually contribute to the Second Life economy.
Brilliant!
And then we have these things on 16m parcels all over G land, tons of them. I have had the view from more than one parcel ruined by these. I don't know if they would even be against the rules because they aren't advertising, they are just blight.
There is a lot I could say about these.
There is a lot I could say about these.
Please do! I would like to know your thoughts.
Those obelisks have been ARed several times, by several residents and, as far as I know, nothing has been done. Actually, they are growing in number.
Several months ago, there was a discussion on them here in the forum, and the owner of those obelisks contacted most of us who were discussing about it. He mentioned they were going to be replace them by something smaller that wouldn't interfere with other parcels. Again, nothing has changed...
I was actually going to say the same thing - he messaged me as well to let me pass along that they were swapping them out for something smaller and shorter…. But it doesn’t look like they have. 
It’s my understanding that they are teleporters for an old teen grid combat group.
ExpandWell, I think there are gradations of junk the Lindens will respond to.
Yes, there is the sacrosanct core of SL, "I get to do WTF I want on my land" and the Lindens uphold this if the items don't violate their TOS as such, but are just an aesthetic or noise problem, like unfinished plywood left out in the sun for years or a noisy YouTube player that no one can find in a complex build to block and shut up. These things they won't touch.
Except...very rarely, they do. When autoreturn is left off in 2007 by one of those accounts that got a free parcel, evidently, and never came back, and where junk piles up crazily on it, sometimes Lindens can be persuaded to remove everything but the owners' prims and put on autoreturn.
Something up in the air driving you crazy for years -- no, they don't usually respond.
In the case of those prims on physics, that was a multi-sim-wide griefer attack. The watermelon colour prims were all over -- I and others removed them and AR'd the griefer. this wasn't enough for them to entirely remove them from the sim -- and that account.
This "Governance2 Linden" (they never seem to have more human names apparently in an effort to prevent cults of personality -- and therefore vectors of attack -- growing up around them as happens with other Moles) told me that I should always make sure ARs have the name of the owner of the prim, a picture, and as much detail as possible.
Sometimes in grief attacks, unless you turn off particles soon enough and grab one of the prims, you can't see a name, so in those cases I just put "Governor Linden" herself as the name.
The real crux of this issue, however, is this: must you remain in AR purgatory and even hell, or can you go to SUPPORT and file a normal ticket as you would if it were only a Linden tree encroaching on your land?
I wish things of this nature would be treated just as natural disasters that just require garbage removal and not require a whole "Governance" study as to actors, their intentions, and their actions.
In this latest Governance video, the Lindens seem to imply you *can* send tickets to Support and not merely AR them. They mention that you cannot complain about griefing/garbage in Live Help or on telephone help, but then they say it can be filed with Support.
I almost wondered if they misspoke, as we are always told that they must be AR'd and Support won't act.
Even so, after I've filed repeated abuse reports, as have others, I usually do go to Support and try to get them to agree to escalate the ticket, citing all the past email copies of my ARs, and sometimes it works.
Hi Prokofy,
Apologies if that was wasn't clear, but Abuse Related issues cannot be addressed by Support via Live Chat, Phone or Support Ticket. Abuse Reports are needed for this and these do go to the Governance Team to review. As you said, in cases where you can't get the owner of the objects name for the report (such as when particles are floating through the entire region), using Governor Linden is best. In these cases, the location and screen shot of the offending objects are important. When Governance comes out to clean it up, they can get the name of the owner at that time and complete their investigation after things are cleaned up and back to normal again. Otherwise, if it's just one or a few objects, it's best to make sure you have the correct owners name, just in case the object is gone by the time Governance has the chance to come out and take a look.
It’s my understanding that they are teleporters for an old teen grid combat group.
I remember that from your tour/interview video of the area. It was nice to see that some ancient structures from Second Life's early days are still around.
I don't see these as AR-able, but what do I know?
My experiences with AR-ing actual ad-farms on the former teen continent have been that the issue never gets taken care of. But that's just my experiences, and I went through the tedious process of derendering them all. I'm much more concerned that, while it was eventually resolved, it took months for Linden to act upon numerous AR's to remove a statue glorifying Hitler from a roadside parcel.
The mesh itself looks fine but it's damn big.
Pretty sure, assuming these are the actual legacy objects made from way back when mesh wasn't even available and not updated copies, that they're made out of good old fashioned prims.
ExpandI admit that the obelisk triggers me way less than the large parcel that appears in the background.
Same here, those low-flying sky-boxes are the real eye-sore. But that's how the Mainland is. Folks can't just AR something because they find it fugly; There needs to be an actual Ar-able violation of TOS. Without that, all folks can do is derender, and that obelisk & teleporter combo is just two objects -- derendering all that stuff in the skyboxes will take forever.
I was actually going to say the same thing - he messaged me as well to let me pass along that they were swapping them out for something smaller and shorter…. But it doesn’t look like they have.
It’s my understanding that they are teleporters for an old teen grid combat group.
They are objects in an old RP on the Teen Grid that involved Siths.
But these owners are now long past the teen age and the current obelisks are not even for a game.
The owner has no intention of moving them and delights in their annoyance factor as they don't fit under existing TOS rules (seemingly). I have interviewed him at length. They are on a high glow to ensure annoyance is maximum.
But "targeted behaviour intended to annoy" is one of the offenses you can AR ("ad-farming" doesn't exist as an offense at all on the AR menu but is a policy so you can try "targeted behaviour" both for extortion and obelisks of any kind -- and there are at least two deliberately targeted so as to annoy). So I think it's worth ARingn them although years of annoying them to date has had zero effect on Lindens.
This is a resident-to-resident dispute and as such the Lindens will do nothing AND close this thread AND remove content, but let's see how much/whose they remove : )
Edited by Prokofy NevaExpandI remember that from your tour/interview video of the area. It was nice to see that some ancient structures from Second Life's early days are still around.
I don't see these as AR-able, but what do I know?
My experiences with AR-ing actual ad-farms on the former teen continent have been that the issue never gets taken care of. But that's just my experiences, and I went through the tedious process of derendering them all. I'm much more concerned that, while it was eventually resolved, it took months for Linden to act upon numerous AR's to remove a statue glorifying Hitler from a roadside parcel.
Pretty sure, assuming these are the actual legacy objects made from way back when mesh wasn't even available and not updated copies, that they're made out of good old fashioned prims.
Same here, those low-flying sky-boxes are the real eye-sore. But that's how the Mainland is. Folks can't just AR something because they find it fugly; There needs to be an actual Ar-able violation of TOS. Without that, all folks can do is derender, and that obelisk & teleporter combo is just two objects -- derendering all that stuff in the skyboxes will take forever.
De-render is not the panacea you imagine, as each new visitor you have then has to de-render, and each new traveler to that sim -- and they are lined up for miles and miles across many sims and you can't just go around de-renderinng them. PS they are in parts to make it not a single-click option, that's deliberate.
It is "targeted behaviour intended to annoy" so can be AR'd as such.
Pretty sure, assuming these are the actual legacy objects made from way back when mesh wasn't even available and not updated copies, that they're made out of good old fashioned prims.
Nah, they're mesh. Well, a combination of mesh (the obelisk itself) and prims (the fullbright cyan glowy bits). Appear to date from 2020. The mesh has proper material maps for the rune gibberish on the side, and they're not the most hideous constructions, really, just horridly out of scale, an obviously very intentional F-you to anybody else with land in the vicinity.
The problem is, if you go by revenue as argument, you would have to prove that people aren't buying land adjacent/close to the microparcels, [...]
That would be a smoking gun, yeah, but that wasn't the argument we made. Rather, the entire Land product was devalued by the risk that an adfarm could suddenly crop up anywhere (and for years, they really did) so it was foolish to buy land, particularly on Mainland. Originally, though, the Lab made (even) more revenue from Estate regions than from Mainland, so they had a perverse incentive to let the adfarmers terrorize residents off the Mainland. (There was speculation that one of the big adfarmers was a Linden alt, but even if true I doubt "petty extortion" was a line item on the Linden balance sheet.)
- You, Eirynne Sieyes, Sylvia Tamalyn and 1 other
- 4
De-render is not the panacea you imagine, as each new visitor you have then has to de-render
Without wanting to drive this thread off topic I just wanna mention that I wish there were the chance to not only blacklist items for myself (as it is the case in at least some viewers) but actually have a parcel blacklist that I can add objects to and that are automatically derendered by parcel visitors.
ExpandThey are objects in an old RP on the Teen Grid that involved Siths.
But these owners are now long past the teen age and the current obelisks are not even for a game.
The owner has no intention of moving them and delights in their annoyance factor as they don't fit under existing TOS rules (seemingly). I have interviewed him at length. They are on a high glow to ensure annoyance is maximum.
But "targeted behaviour intended to annoy" is one of the offenses you can AR ("ad-farming" doesn't exist as an offense at all on the AR menu but is a policy so you can try "targeted behaviour" both for extortion and obelisks of any kind -- and there are at least two deliberately targeted so as to annoy). So I think it's worth ARingn them although years of annoying them to date has had zero effect on Lindens.
This is a resident-to-resident dispute and as such the Lindens will do nothing AND close this thread AND remove content, but let's see how much/whose they remove : )
I certainly do believe they are targeted to annoy when you are trying to sell land next to one, and I often see these next to land for sale and have been in the position of having to sell land right next door to them more than once. And what happens when the neighbouring land is sold, usually for less than it would have been worth before? It gets carved up for more obelisks. I love the old teen grid and these just ruin so much of it. I won't buy G land anymore because of the problems with these. Just recently I was looking at some mountain land, it was really nice, I gave it some consideration, went back a couple of days later and there were obelisks all over the sim. For me, the impact is exactly the same as living next door to an ad farm, maybe worse because a lot of ad farms aren't tall and glowing. I wish these did fall under the policy because of the nature and sheer quantity of the objects. They are ruining a lot of people's enjoyment of their land. Of course ruining your neighbour's enjoyment of their land with an ugly build is not ARable, but in this case, it is systematic, and it is one person or group having a negative impact on many residents across a large number of regions - exactly the same as ad farms.
- You, Qie Niangao, Eirynne Sieyes and 1 other
- 4
ExpandI certainly do believe they are targeted to annoy when you are trying to sell land next to one, and I often see these next to land for sale and have been in the position of having to sell land right next door to them more than once. And what happens when the neighbouring land is sold, usually for less than it would have been worth before? It gets carved up for more obelisks. I love the old teen grid and these just ruin so much of it. I won't buy G land anymore because of the problems with these. Just recently I was looking at some mountain land, it was really nice, I gave it some consideration, went back a couple of days later and there were obelisks all over the sim. For me, the impact is exactly the same as living next door to an ad farm, maybe worse because a lot of ad farms aren't tall and glowing. I wish these did fall under the policy because of the nature and sheer quantity of the objects. They are ruining a lot of people's enjoyment of their land. Of course ruining your neighbour's enjoyment of their land with an ugly build is not ARable, but in this case, it is systematic, and it is one person or group having a negative impact on many residents across a large number of regions - exactly the same as ad farms.
I AR them any way. And so should you. And so should everyone. Eventually the Lindens get the message. I have them near existing land I've had for ages -- they've spread quite far. And I bought some land where they are anyway, because I don't let them take over. So I'll get a petition going against them and continue to investigate the symbiosis as to how they persist, they have enablers.
Basically, this is part of a wider problem that isn't just "the tragedy of the commons" but is about the ambition some people have to deploy grid-wide programs, even imagined "solutions," and to be visible everywhere, constantly. And I don't think these types should be indulged in this.
ExpandNah, they're mesh. Well, a combination of mesh (the obelisk itself) and prims (the fullbright cyan glowy bits). Appear to date from 2020. The mesh has proper material maps for the rune gibberish on the side, and they're not the most hideous constructions, really, just horridly out of scale, an obviously very intentional F-you to anybody else with land in the vicinity.
That would be a smoking gun, yeah, but that wasn't the argument we made. Rather, the entire Land product was devalued by the risk that an adfarm could suddenly crop up anywhere (and for years, they really did) so it was foolish to buy land, particularly on Mainland. Originally, though, the Lab made (even) more revenue from Estate regions than from Mainland, so they had a perverse incentive to let the adfarmers terrorize residents off the Mainland. (There was speculation that one of the big adfarmers was a Linden alt, but even if true I doubt "petty extortion" was a line item on the Linden balance sheet.)
I've never seen evidence that the ad farmers were a Linden alt; it was more like the Lindens were the kind of modern parents that indulged their miscreant children and then didn't know what to do with them. If at one time they had "freedom of expression" and "creativity" as their guiding mantras, they certainly don't now. If at one time they might have cynically encouraged ads and situations to force people to the islands, they don't need to do that now -- and PS they have Bellisseria. Their answer to everything everyone says here is "Bellisseria".
Well, that's not the answer for me and some others, and the rule of law and authentic good neighbourly acts.
I remember as a rank newbie I struggled to build something and left plywood pieces scattered over a nice riverside lot for weeks on end. And someone pointed out to me that this was bad behaviour, that it ruined the view, and if I couldn't finish the build, I should put it up in the sky or go to a skybox.
I was covered with shame when I came out of my tunnel and saw this, not far from where a nearby plywood deployer has left his works out for a year or more despite numerous IMs from me and others.
Why aren't more people covered in shame? What does it take to induce it?
On another front involving domes put too low in the sky, I gathered signatures to a petition, I put up protest billboards, and in a few places, there appeared to be action -- but I actually think the motivation was that the domes weren't renting and so they removed them.
Those so motivated endlessly have the ability to tier up 16m parcels --after all, with merely 4096, you could have 256 of them!
I do think there is a symbiosis here whereby the same or related individuals buy abandoned land, then abandon it -- or unscrupulous dealers carve off 16 m to them. No reputable land dealer should buy, sell, or rent 16m parcels. But it only takes one to ruin the grid.
Edited by Prokofy NevaI'm always travelling round mainland (every day in fact), and honestly, I don't find those sci-fi looking obelisks to be that bad. Sure, in some areas they look out of place - but frankly you can say that about a lot of stuff you pass by on mainland.
At the very least they look fairly well made - certainly much better to look at than all the large square box structures some people have rezzed that are nothing more that a few prim walls using the default plywood texture 
I'm always travelling round mainland (every day in fact), and honestly, I don't find those sci-fi looking obelisks to be that bad. Sure, in some areas they look out of place - but frankly you can say that about a lot of stuff you pass by on mainland.
At the very least they look fairly well made - certainly much better to look at than all the large square box structures some people have rezzed that are nothing more that a few prim walls using the default plywood texture
So the bright glowing doesn't bother you and others in the "like" train. OK then.
So the bright glowing doesn't bother you and others in the "like" train. OK then.
Nope, none of the ones i've passed seem to be glowing excessively, certainly no worse than going past other kinds of light sources in SL.
Nope, none of the ones i've passed seem to be glowing excessively, certainly no worse than going past other kinds of light sources in SL.
I agree on this one. It’s not my thing, and sure, there are a ton of them…. But isn’t that what mainland is about? We get into dangerous ground if we start saying one persons ‘tastes’ count for everyone and one person gets to decide what’s okay on the mainland.
I mean…. Can’t I erect a reasonably sized full bright low hanging Cheeto and live in it if I want…. on the mainland? I get that people don’t like it, but that is to be expected as we all have different likes and dislikes.
What I’m confused about is I seem to remember being ‘run over the coals’ on these very forums for daring to mention that the Lindens MIGHT USE land in a way that someone else didn’t want to use it - you know… just like this thread is about how some other person is using the Teen Grid teleporty things with their own tier.
And…. the teleporter things aren’t ads? so I they don’t count towards Ad Farming?
The OP keeps saying ‘we live here’… but I dare say that the teen grid teleporty people AlSO live here too. And me, with my make believe full bright giant Cheeto house. And whatever else any other mainlanders wants. We all live here… and we ALL have to find ways to make living here work for all of us - even the people with the giant teen grid teleporter things.
And finally, Prof - You can’t call people names and try to humiliate them publicly, mute them when you don’t want to hear what they have to say, then sneakily unmute months later to engage them again when you want to have someone to fight about something with. You are still muted for me (in all ways) on all platforms for being generally toxic and hateful to me. Honestly, it’s been nice not having to see all the hate you send my way. I am only responding to this one because someone told me that you are talking directly to me. FYI - For unmuting, that has not and will not, change on my end….. even if you add passive aggressive jabs to your posts on these forums. ‘Like train’? Really? Fine.
CHOO CHOO! Chugging chugga chugga
This exact topic has been hashed out at least three times in the last year. This post feels like ‘forum fight’ bait to me from the OP. So, for that reason… I’m out of this thread. Good luck everyone!
ExpandI agree on this one. It’s not my thing, and sure, there are a ton of them…. But isn’t that what mainland is about? We get into dangerous ground if we start saying one persons ‘tastes’ count for everyone and one person gets to decide what’s okay on the mainland.
I mean…. Can’t I erect a reasonably sized full bright low hanging Cheeto and live in it if I want…. on the mainland? I get that people don’t like it, but that is to be expected as we all have different likes and dislikes.
What I’m confused about is I seem to remember being ‘run over the coals’ on these very forums for daring to mention that the Lindens MIGHT USE land in a way that someone else didn’t want to use it - you know… just like this thread is about how some other person is using the Teen Grid teleporty things with their own tier.
And…. the teleporter things aren’t ads? so I they don’t count towards Ad Farming?
The OP keeps saying ‘we live here’… but I dare say that the teen grid teleporty people AlSO live here too. And me, with my make believe full bright giant Cheeto house. And whatever else any other mainlanders wants. We all live here… and we ALL have to find ways to make living here work for all of us - even the people with the giant teen grid teleporter things.
And finally, Prof - You can’t call people names and try to humiliate them publicly, mute them when you don’t want to hear what they have to say, then sneakily unmute months later to engage them again when you want to have someone to fight about something with. You are still muted for me (in all ways) on all platforms for being generally toxic and hateful to me. Honestly, it’s been nice not having to see all the hate you send my way. I am only responding to this one because someone told me that you are talking directly to me. FYI - For unmuting, that has not and will not, change on my end….. even if you add passive aggressive jabs to your posts on these forums. ‘Like train’? Really? Fine.
CHOO CHOO! Chugging chugga chugga
This exact topic has been hashed out at least three times in the last year. This post feels like ‘forum fight’ bait to me from the OP. So, for that reason… I’m out of this thread. Good luck everyone!
were you using wacky baccy at this point?
ExpandI agree on this one. It’s not my thing, and sure, there are a ton of them…. But isn’t that what mainland is about? We get into dangerous ground if we start saying one persons ‘tastes’ count for everyone and one person gets to decide what’s okay on the mainland.
I mean…. Can’t I erect a reasonably sized full bright low hanging Cheeto and live in it if I want…. on the mainland? I get that people don’t like it, but that is to be expected as we all have different likes and dislikes.
What I’m confused about is I seem to remember being ‘run over the coals’ on these very forums for daring to mention that the Lindens MIGHT USE land in a way that someone else didn’t want to use it - you know… just like this thread is about how some other person is using the Teen Grid teleporty things with their own tier.
And…. the teleporter things aren’t ads? so I they don’t count towards Ad Farming?
The OP keeps saying ‘we live here’… but I dare say that the teen grid teleporty people AlSO live here too. And me, with my make believe full bright giant Cheeto house. And whatever else any other mainlanders wants. We all live here… and we ALL have to find ways to make living here work for all of us - even the people with the giant teen grid teleporter things.
And finally, Prof - You can’t call people names and try to humiliate them publicly, mute them when you don’t want to hear what they have to say, then sneakily unmute months later to engage them again when you want to have someone to fight about something with. You are still muted for me (in all ways) on all platforms for being generally toxic and hateful to me. Honestly, it’s been nice not having to see all the hate you send my way. I am only responding to this one because someone told me that you are talking directly to me. FYI - For unmuting, that has not and will not, change on my end….. even if you add passive aggressive jabs to your posts on these forums. ‘Like train’? Really? Fine.
CHOO CHOO! Chugging chugga chugga
This exact topic has been hashed out at least three times in the last year. This post feels like ‘forum fight’ bait to me from the OP. So, for that reason… I’m out of this thread. Good luck everyone!
Why am I not surprised that Feorie is endorsing the obelisks?
We do live here, and people who have hundreds of 16m parcels of any kind on sims where they do not live or have a store do *not*, most decidedly. THAT is the issue.
They aren't teleporters and no longer have any function.
It's one thing to have something on a parcel where you made a home or business; it's another thing altogether to go across the grid with it and be in many, many people's view. The idea of tolerance is being distorted when it morphs from being tolerant of a neighbour and getting along, to being indulgent to grid-wide projects that are eyesores.
The rest of your notions don't make sense but need not be discussed.
ExpandI agree on this one. It’s not my thing, and sure, there are a ton of them…. But isn’t that what mainland is about? We get into dangerous ground if we start saying one persons ‘tastes’ count for everyone and one person gets to decide what’s okay on the mainland.
I mean…. Can’t I erect a reasonably sized full bright low hanging Cheeto and live in it if I want…. on the mainland? I get that people don’t like it, but that is to be expected as we all have different likes and dislikes.
What I’m confused about is I seem to remember being ‘run over the coals’ on these very forums for daring to mention that the Lindens MIGHT USE land in a way that someone else didn’t want to use it - you know… just like this thread is about how some other person is using the Teen Grid teleporty things with their own tier.
And…. the teleporter things aren’t ads? so I they don’t count towards Ad Farming?
The OP keeps saying ‘we live here’… but I dare say that the teen grid teleporty people AlSO live here too. And me, with my make believe full bright giant Cheeto house. And whatever else any other mainlanders wants. We all live here… and we ALL have to find ways to make living here work for all of us - even the people with the giant teen grid teleporter things.
And finally, Prof - You can’t call people names and try to humiliate them publicly, mute them when you don’t want to hear what they have to say, then sneakily unmute months later to engage them again when you want to have someone to fight about something with. You are still muted for me (in all ways) on all platforms for being generally toxic and hateful to me. Honestly, it’s been nice not having to see all the hate you send my way. I am only responding to this one because someone told me that you are talking directly to me. FYI - For unmuting, that has not and will not, change on my end….. even if you add passive aggressive jabs to your posts on these forums. ‘Like train’? Really? Fine.
CHOO CHOO! Chugging chugga chugga
This exact topic has been hashed out at least three times in the last year. This post feels like ‘forum fight’ bait to me from the OP. So, for that reason… I’m out of this thread. Good luck everyone!
were you using wacky baccy at this point?
ExpandI agree on this one. It’s not my thing, and sure, there are a ton of them…. But isn’t that what mainland is about? We get into dangerous ground if we start saying one persons ‘tastes’ count for everyone and one person gets to decide what’s okay on the mainland.
I mean…. Can’t I erect a reasonably sized full bright low hanging Cheeto and live in it if I want…. on the mainland? I get that people don’t like it, but that is to be expected as we all have different likes and dislikes.
What I’m confused about is I seem to remember being ‘run over the coals’ on these very forums for daring to mention that the Lindens MIGHT USE land in a way that someone else didn’t want to use it - you know… just like this thread is about how some other person is using the Teen Grid teleporty things with their own tier.
And…. the teleporter things aren’t ads? so I they don’t count towards Ad Farming?
The OP keeps saying ‘we live here’… but I dare say that the teen grid teleporty people AlSO live here too. And me, with my make believe full bright giant Cheeto house. And whatever else any other mainlanders wants. We all live here… and we ALL have to find ways to make living here work for all of us - even the people with the giant teen grid teleporter things.
And finally, Prof - You can’t call people names and try to humiliate them publicly, mute them when you don’t want to hear what they have to say, then sneakily unmute months later to engage them again when you want to have someone to fight about something with. You are still muted for me (in all ways) on all platforms for being generally toxic and hateful to me. Honestly, it’s been nice not having to see all the hate you send my way. I am only responding to this one because someone told me that you are talking directly to me. FYI - For unmuting, that has not and will not, change on my end….. even if you add passive aggressive jabs to your posts on these forums. ‘Like train’? Really? Fine.
CHOO CHOO! Chugging chugga chugga
This exact topic has been hashed out at least three times in the last year. This post feels like ‘forum fight’ bait to me from the OP. So, for that reason… I’m out of this thread. Good luck everyone!
Why am I not surprised that Feorie is endorsing the obelisks?
We do live here, and people who have hundreds of 16m parcels of any kind on sims where they do not live or have a store do *not*, most decidedly. THAT is the issue.
They aren't teleporters and no longer have any function.
It's one thing to have something on a parcel where you made a home or business; it's another thing altogether to go across the grid with it and be in many, many people's view. The idea of tolerance is being distorted when it morphs from being tolerant of a neighbour and getting along, to being indulgent to grid-wide projects that are eyesores.
The rest of your notions don't make sense but need not be discussed.
The generic issue here of public interest -- despite concerted efforts to turn it into a "personal dispute" that is "not for the forums" etc. is that some people have grid-wide projects where they put their ads, businesses, builds, and egos into the view all over. So naturally they protect *other* people who do the same. I'm not for grid-wide projects of this type. Again, I think the Lindens are the only ones who should have a networked road-side ad system given the propensity for too many to take over the grid and make people "buy the view". I also think in a world where you can fly and use the map for PTP, you don't need all these other elaborate systems and builds.
Edited by Prokofy Nevawere you using wacky baccy at this point?
All the time. 😜
ExpandThat's one of the arguments we made that seemed to carry some weight with the Lindens, back when adfarms were a huge problem. Back then, the Lab still entertained the bogus argument that advertising on SL roadways might actually be a thing, as opposed to an exercise in petty extortion as it has always been. It may have sunk in that it was their revenue that adfarms erode, not that of us whining Mainlanders. Eventually they must have realized that all the microparcels owned by every adfarmer, ever, wouldn't total a full region, yet they destroy value of the Lab's whole Land product—vastly exceeding what little they earn in tier. (Something was enough to get the Lindens to overcome their then rabid Libertarian/crypto-anarchist faith, look out for their own interests, and finally regulate the damned things.)
I'm guessing those obelisks are more common on the old Teen Grid regions (now the "Sharp Continent" I guess), based on the "military group that may not even be active anymore" and the Snowlands look of the image: I don't recall encountering any on the Sansara Snowlands, at least along the ONSR where I haunt.
I'd want to measure to be sure, but based on that image they look susceptible to ARs directly citing the official adfarm policy, at least the terms about "must be grounded to the terrain, not floating" and "extend no higher than 8 m from the ground", and maybe others.
[EDIT: Yeah, they're not difficult to find on the Sharp Continent, that's for sure. And they're way taller than 8m, and also non-phantom. I can imagine a Governance person fretting that somebody might find them "historical" and not explicit advertising and on parcels slightly larger than 16 m² —although smaller than the 128 m² size historically considered too suspicious to list in search. They might be worth ARing anyway, just because there are so many of them and they're so intrusive, but it's that very scale that should really be documented in a letter to @Patch Linden because it's his profit center that Governance might be too timid to defend. Do we know: Is there a census of them? And are they all on Sharp?]
[EDIT2: Well, nuts. The owner of (many of?) those obelisks is still active in SL, in fact was logged-in today, according to the member list of an open group. And the obelisk-associated groups still own some larger parcels, too, so it's not a classic adfarm situation. The obelisks are quite the eyesores, scattered on tiny parcels all over that continent for negligible tier, but I can see a legit question of whether they might nonetheless be legit.]
There is a list of them and there are more than 200 and counting.
They started in Sharp in the days of the Teen Grid, persisted there, and now are all over on many continents -- and spreading.
Sure, efforts should be made to compile a letter to Patch and I will work on that.
They are often on 16 m parcels which they obtained likely by first getting a larger parcel and then abandoning it (Lindens won't sell abandoned 16m parcels any more -- they tell me -- they link them up, unless you can show adjacent land). Or enabling land agents cutting up land on a sim sell them a corner out of another plot.
They put one on each sim, and since the policy is about "one per sim" when it is ads or billboards, then no doubt they think they are "in compliance".
It's all a cynical manipulation of the system.
The ad farm policy isn't just for ad farms, as it was used on people who put scripted boxes to scan land all over and other mysterious purposes.
At this point, there are at least a few more people aware than Ad Farms and their ilk do persist, whereas they may not have before; they get it about the obelisks more than they did -- or they are identified as supporting grid-wide vanity/business/reputation enhancing "community" projects.
The Lindens award the game title "community manager" to people who do enough of these and make them visible enough, and their actual benefit to the public, their actual use by avatars -- all that is beside the point. It's the "idea" of "community". That's why I bother to raise it.
By funneling people with big ideas for the use of the entire grid, or even Linden protected land, to the JIRA, the Lindens in one way get rid of complainers but in another way enable them. Because everyone knows that if your "community management" is aggressive enough, you will get Linden collaboration and Mole glitter. I just think it's worth pointing out that this isn't always in the demonstrable true public's interest. The true public is made up of people who pay tier whose land is devalued by grid-wide projects. I don't think much more can be accomplished on the forums but you can:
1) IM me for a free art work on this subject
2) Discuss inworld a petition campaign.
Edited by Prokofy Neva
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