Some People Get Their Way

Prokofy Neva · 2022-09-02T03:18:15Z

I noticed that a parcel of 4,302 in Tenera that has been Linden protected land since 2005, by next to a Roman-style aqueduct road, had turned purple and was put on the auction.

I then saw the once-glorious Greco-Roman style ampitheater in Tenera, the previous Volunteers HQ of the Lindens' now-defunct Volunteers group (population 8,000) has nearly all been torn down.

Some of you will remember people calling for this area to be removed; doubling back and duplicitously claiming they only meant for it to be "updated". That call remained; the strenuous objections to such changes were removed.

Of course, the Lindens can do what they want with their land, with the whole world. They can -- and do -- pick their friends and partners for "business reasons". I've just never seen them do *this*. And they did it because their attention was drawn to it. They might have left it for another 10 years, since it had been left fallow for the previous 15.

A rump of it remains, so visit it. It's unlikely to remain.

I wonder if they will send back this epic robot sculpture as well, made by a non-Linden.

For now, you can still see it.

I suppose the entire site will be auctioned off, and I expect we will see certain transportation RP outfits spring up here or some other acronym arrive here, along with glowing obelisks.

It's unlikely that this area could be returned to a Mainland sandbox, as it once was, or to some other Linden-owned build with a nice park, hangouts, etc. -- the Moles build such nice things in Bellisseria, but not on the old Mainland.

When I came here last November, I and my tenants had been chased out of a sim where a sudden, awkward auction boxed our land in from all sides when the diva who won the big put no-access on her land. The land then changed many times, being chopped by land barons -- a friend tried to make it work there as it is nice Heterocera coast, such as it is, then he was gone, and I never looked back.

The person who won the sim across from Tenera on the auction, from whom I purchased land, thought she was purchasing land to "protected Linden land" that does not change. Now that concept is eroded. I've seen the Lindens sell off some of their parkland; as we know, all the old Linden Home areas are going to be knocked down and it's not clear what will survive.

Still, she sold it for a good price which is why I got it, and the roadside even cheaper, as roadside next to a looming aqueduct isn't so practical. Perhaps that road -- if that, too, won't be removed -- will now provide some "protection" from whatever emerges in the place of a once amazing build. Lots of Linden builds that once had purposes for them (not us), like their Waterhead office -- still stand. This doesn't.

It's sad.

Sylvia Tamalyn · 2022-09-02T04:05:36Z

That *is* sad. When this area was a topic of conversation before, I paid another visit to the region, and I'm glad I did. I expect the robot will go before too long, too.

People wonder why some of us push back against the "let's update all the Mainland and make it new and shiny" bunch. This destruction of SL history is an example of why I do it.

animats · 2022-09-02T05:18:45Z

Oh, I liked that place. Even though it was totally useless.

However, there are maybe fifty Linden amphitheaters in world that are never used.

Prokofy Neva · 2022-09-02T07:42:18Z

So, the community center in Newbank, traffic 25, is useful, would you say? I have visited maybe 10 times and never saw a soul there.

I recently visited it because I was literally dragged there from the whirlpool in the lake where the sims meet in the lake at Porridge Pot. That's how Moles get people there.

Sure, it's a much better build -- it was just made (the land claim date says oddly June 30, 2004, but it was just made as we all know.

The Moles of course have advanced, as the platform has, in 15 years.

At least the drinks dispense here as the Moles are using residents' creations. Since I live in a large city, I personally am not drawn to urban builds in SL, of which there are no shortage. Some people are, and no doubt it has its fans, as everything like this does in Bellisseria. But...the traffic doesn't lie.

If a build is outdated (and as I noted in the past, the info givers in fact were up to date except the international language kiosks) -- it can be updated and optimized -- as the Moth Temple in Iris was a few years ago. Or is that next? Surely not? But I think nothing is safe.

This land parcel in Tenera, now empty,, which is 8192 plus plus the nearby sandbox also strangely kept empty for years (with a notice to go elsewhere) will simply be auctioned, and that means more transportation RP around these rail yards.

Qie Niangao · 2022-09-02T07:59:39Z

The southwest corner that's currently up for auction, I'm not sure what that was before; I'd never noticed it until it turned purple on the map. VRC has owned the far northeast tip of Tenera for years and I always thought of it as the only "privately-owned" land in the region. So I guess the auction parcel used to be prims for the "Volunteer HQ" build that's mostly gone now? Or maybe there was something else on that parcel that I never noticed.

There had long been scattered detritus floating around the Volunteer HQ build, but I assumed the whole thing would remain—forever, I guess.

The sandbox used to be across from the robot, inside the loop of SLRR tracks, and would generate the most frequent floods of travelling griefer prims on the SLRR. (Coincidentally, as if for old time sake, the SLRR had a little griefer incident this past Sunday. Must be time for school to start.) Perhaps Governance tired of tidying up that mess and shuttered the sandbox just for their own sanity, quite a few years ago now.

The robot isn't the very best of the resident-created SLRR stations from 2005-2006, but it's distinctive. One of those, Alazarin Mondrian's terminal in Bhaga, was later replaced by Michael Linden's big passenger terminal there. I really hope they don't poof all of them, they add interest and variety to the continent's "rail infrastructure."

Aethelwine · 2022-09-02T08:17:44Z

I am curious to know more about what was there. A quick Google search has brought up this reference.

https://lindenlab.wordpress.com/2006/05/16/volunteers-working-together/

It would be interesting to know more about it.

Prokofy Neva · 2022-09-02T08:18:29Z

18 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

The southwest corner that's currently up for auction, I'm not sure what that was before; I'd never noticed it until it turned purple on the map. VRC has owned the far northeast tip of Tenera for years and I always thought of it as the only "privately-owned" land in the region. So I guess the auction parcel used to be prims for the "Volunteer HQ" build that's mostly gone now? Or maybe there was something else on that parcel that I never noticed.

There had long been scattered detritus floating around the Volunteer HQ build, but I assumed the whole thing would remain—forever, I guess.

The sandbox used to be across from the robot, inside the loop of SLRR tracks, and would generate the most frequent floods of travelling griefer prims on the SLRR. (Coincidentally, as if for old time sake, the SLRR had a little griefer incident this past Sunday. Must be time for school to start.) Perhaps Governance tired of tidying up that mess and shuttered the sandbox just for their own sanity, quite a few years ago now.

The robot isn't the very best of the resident-created SLRR stations from 2005-2006, but it's distinctive. One of those, Alazarin Mondrian's terminal in Bhaga, was later replaced by Michael Linden's big passenger terminal there. I really hope they don't poof all of them, they add interest and variety to the continent's "rail infrastructure."

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Qie, the entire HUGE Greco-Roman build, on what is now divided into 23,680 plus 1856 (where Shawn's statue is) and 2016 (where the rump of the palace is left) was entirely Linden Land, not private, owned by the Lindens' Volunteer HQ group created by Lexie Linden.

I think despite having land there you just haven't studied the Linden part of it? I have, since I bought land across from it last November and I an my tenants hung out there often. I put a castle nearby which encroaches on the lot that was empty even before this tear down and I expect to find it in Lost & Found tomorrow. Whee. I couldn't get it straightened out once it encroached (error messages tell you that always) and hadn't gotten to take it to a sandbox to fix it.

The roadside parcel of some 4096 m2 + on the opposite side of the aqueduct road, now on the auction was also definitely Volunteer HQ lawn and just left empty -- for prims. It was quite a primmy build.

There wasn't any detritus at all. I have no idea what you're talking about. Did the old planar trees give you that impression, some of them flexis I think? There was the large build, with flexi flags as well, all Linden owned (some can be seen). There was one very small item that belonged to a resident on the steps of the ampitheater -- is that what you mean? Like a microphone or little sign. But not "detritus."

To be sure, up in the sky, one enterprising lucky fellow who was in the Volunteer HQ group and therefore could place prims on the land built himself a tree house in the sky, quite far up. I found it one day when cleaning up my own sky.

All sandboxes had griefing problems. Maybe because this was next to your land, you noticed it more. Maybe somebody just got a burr in their saddle for this one and it got more reports and more bans which can often then spur more griefer activity. It hardly seemed a cure to close the entire thing and do nothing with it (that ground was empty) as a solution for 17 years, but yeah.

I was on the sim Obscure for many years, a public rather than Linden sandbox, which was nicely managed and seldom griefed. The Lindens just didn't police their own sandboxes.

I'm not sure that the robot was a "created station". Perhaps it was, although it's not in the Crumbli junction, but on the Tenera land. I find it perfectly fine, perhaps not at a "Starax" level but quite good. No need to tear it down, it's quite distinctive. Maybe it didn't fit the Greco-Roman theme but it seemed to fit with the railroads. The Crumbli Junction is nothing special - *that* is what is not superior to other stations built with the Lindens' resident builder contest, such as by Jauani Wu in Tuliptree and Cellardoor in Neumogen.

It seems like you're looking for ways to justify this, and I guess I'm not surprised.

And yet you want the Lindens not to take down the railroad stations, although they are all pretty much great builds, even if prim, do not take up much space (not more than 4096) and I can't imagine selling them to transportation RP groups improves them -- because then it doesn't have the same civic feel.

I didn't realize Michael Linden's terminal replaced Mondrian's terminal -- what a shame. And why? When the Lindens have always had a shed-load of abandoned land to use for their projects?

Prokofy Neva · 2022-09-02T08:22:44Z

REQUIRED

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21 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

I am curious to know more about what was there. A quick Google search has brought up this reference.

https://lindenlab.wordpress.com/2006/05/16/volunteers-working-together/

It would be interesting to know more about it.

Vick Forcella · 2022-09-02T08:57:52Z

I recall this place as being build on, on several levels in a roman temple style. I remember it most because of a sewage pipe hanging from it. Weird find while exploring, that makes exploring fun. Discovering things like this. For that I'm sad it's dumped. I hope the new owner will be nice to it.
Also, roads are not save and are not protected. I have seen roads change ownership and vanish.

Prokofy Neva · 2022-09-02T08:58:13Z

For the record, as the blog post notes, re: the Volunteer HQ build -- while the group was created and run by Lexie Linden (long gone from the Lab), this build was made by residents.

o Lethe Naumova - foundation

o mera Pixel (merosaur) pillars and flags

o Tateru Nino (benches)

o Khamon Fate (trees)

o Shawn Pertwee (robot)

Arguably the robot goes with the train station -- it is labeled "train station 1/3" in three parts, and placed by Nigel Linden (Garth Fairchild, who died in RL some years ago sadly), who handled the SLRR. Yet it is on the sim Tenera, not on Crumbli, where the junction is, and train station built by Hyper Mole, not a resident.

I believe it was Lethe who built the treehouse in the sky (only a wooden fence remains now) which no doubt was for the Resident Help Network (RHN), a subset of the large Volunteers group.

Ozymandias

By Percy Bysshe Shelley

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

Edited just now by Prokofy Neva

Prokofy Neva · 2022-09-02T09:02:28Z

4 minutes ago, Vick Forcella said:

I recall this place as being build on, on several levels in a roman temple style. I remember it most because of a sewage pipe hanging from it. Weird find while exploring, that makes exploring fun. Discovering things like this. For that I'm sad it's dumped. I hope the new owner will be nice to it.
Also, roads are not save and are not protected. I have seen roads change ownership and vanish.

Yes, I saw the entire bridge in Palomarian, which was a fine old light cobblestone or limestone block sort of bridge, all prim work, made by Xenon Linden I believe, just like other bridges very similar in other areas, completely demolished, and in its place, a build that didn't fit the area at all, in this black, smooth industrial texture right out of Zindra. There didn't seem to be any reason for this. The Linden land is sequestered from the sim in its own group, and prim or mesh, it is what it is, and often the land impact doesn't take up that parcel. It's not like they "needed the prims".

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Posted 21 minutes ago (edited)

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

There wasn't any detritus at all. I have no idea what you're talking about.

It wasn't a big deal, but some prims were scattered in midair over and around the palace/amphitheatre build, possibly left over from the original building process because they never got returned, so must have been set to the building group. They were kinda like the eight little cylinders that remain above the remaining build (e.g., secondlife:///app/objectim/d07b873b-383d-2e9c-4f8e-386bb8d0e431?name=Object&owner=86364c59-dc92-42d8-9622-ea5709c0bf02&slurl=Tenera/62.569480/94.939130/94.830820 ) but I'm not sure those are actually among the ones I'd noticed before, and may have washed up there in the process of demolishing the rest of the surrounding build. (I don't think I ever noticed the item you mentioned on the steps of the amphitheatre, just stuff in the air.)

The reason the Tenera sandbox was an especially problematic griefer site was that it was adjacent—nearly surrounded by—Linden land that allowed object entry, so self-replicating stuff could spread from there all around the SLRR. Certainly other sandboxes had griefing, and there are rez areas at every train station so it was always easy for a griefer to find somewhere to start spreading stuff, but Tenera launched more than its fair share of trouble. (At Tenera and next door Crumbi junction, the SLRR mainline connects with both north- and northwest-bound branches.)

[ETA: For some reason you took my post as "looking for ways to justify this" so perhaps I should clarify. I want the robot to stay, and I was fine with the Volunteer HQ build, but I do think this was a difficult spot for a sandbox and never blamed the Lab for shutting it down here in favor of a bunch more full-region sandboxes, some on void-surrounded islands. FWIW, my favorite resident-built SLRR station is Crenulate, and I'm also especially fond of Tuliptree and Epirrhoe.]

Edited 13 minutes ago by Qie Niangao

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Posted just now

36 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It wasn't a big deal, but some prims were scattered in midair over and around the palace/amphitheatre build, possibly left over from the original building process because they never got returned, so must have been set to the building group. They were kinda like the eight little cylinders that remain above the remaining build (e.g., secondlife:///app/objectim/d07b873b-383d-2e9c-4f8e-386bb8d0e431?name=Object&owner=86364c59-dc92-42d8-9622-ea5709c0bf02&slurl=Tenera/62.569480/94.939130/94.830820 ) but I'm not sure those are actually among the ones I'd noticed before, and may have washed up there in the process of demolishing the rest of the surrounding build. (I don't think I ever noticed the item you mentioned on the steps of the amphitheatre, just stuff in the air.)

The reason the Tenera sandbox was an especially problematic griefer site was that it was adjacent—nearly surrounded by—Linden land that allowed object entry, so self-replicating stuff could spread from there all around the SLRR. Certainly other sandboxes had griefing, and there are rez areas at every train station so it was always easy for a griefer to find somewhere to start spreading stuff, but Tenera launched more than its fair share of trouble. (At Tenera and next door Crumbi junction, the SLRR mainline connects with both north- and northwest-bound branches.)

[ETA: For some reason you took my post as "looking for ways to justify this" so perhaps I should clarify. I want the robot to stay, and I was fine with the Volunteer HQ build, but I do think this was a difficult spot for a sandbox and never blamed the Lab for shutting it down here in favor of a bunch more full-region sandboxes, some on void-surrounded islands. FWIW, my favorite resident-built SLRR station is Crenulate, and I'm also especially fond of Tuliptree and Epirrhoe.]

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1. I think what you were seeing was indeed a product of the demolition, because I don't recall seeing it, but maybe they were there. The entire building had the atmosphere of being austere and well built, like the architectural sites of the ancients, so I didn't perceive it in this way.

2. Obscure is also next to a railroad, and even has a resident-built train station, and was happy to stay open all this time, and is still open, because it was managed properly.

3. I don't think griefing and the problem of self-replicating prims, which hasn't been as common as it was 18 years ago, would be enough of a reason to leave it vacant all this time, never made into a park or any other kind of Linden/Mole build, or for that matter, sold. Perhaps this was a subset of big plans about the SLRR entertained by both former Linden/Moles and resident fans that never came about. I mean, there are a lot of railroads in SL, and they don't get used. Now the Lindens are focusing on the one in Bellisseria -- I never see anyone but myself using it.

4. Instead of treating griefing as an endless series of individual griefers, the Lindens should have closed down the groups that continued to spawn them. Philip did this once, with Something Awful, but then he and his staff were so harassed over this (needlessly) that they took their time in dismantling other notorious groups and to this day some remain. They were also wedded to the idea of anonymizers in the illusion that freedom fighters in Iran and China were using these to access SL.

5. Imagine, on the Mainland, I have "build" and "object entry" left open on all my rentals so that people can immediately join the open group and build without waiting for a landlord to invite them. Then I give them resident powers to access features on the "about land" menu and some of the more cautious ones turn it off. Sometimes they turn everything off and wonder why their own scripts don't work and they can't build.

I believe in having the land open. The horror! Imagine! Gasp! And 99% of the time, it is not griefed or misused. As you know, there was one particular determined group that wanted to make an object lesson of this freedom I established, to try to remove it, but ultimately they failed. It really isn't the terror people imagine. If you are persistent in having people fight back with ARs and bans, you win, even if it takes time. I'm not for distorting the world around the capacity of griefers to exploit some of the freedoms. if it was truly the problem you claim, I wouldn't be in business.

And here's the difference: I managed my property and I empowered my tenants to manage their rented properties with the group tools. So did the Obscure sandbox people. All those volunteers, all those rail lovers -- they couldn't "adopt" these Linden spaces and serve as deterrents?

The Lindens didn't want to spend time doing this, even with a cursory circuit riding; and again, this LEGION of volunteers they developed never addressed this socially (I'm not for giving them ban powers, but they could have had a presence and been a deterrence). They didn't want to remove groups, in the theory that there were "only a few bad apples" which is not how groups work in SL in particular.

Perhaps the robot will stay now that you have blessed it, my bet is the rest will be scrubbed and auctioned.

It would be nice to know how this decision came about and what the plan is. It seems obvious to me how this came about but it's always good to hear the Lindens' cover story..

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Posted 1 hour ago

15 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I wonder if they will send back this epic robot sculpture as well, made by a non-Linden.

I believe the epic robot sculpture will persist for several reasons. It is a railway station (Tenera Station). It is a wonderful example of pure prim building. Patch Linden is sentimental and has a fondness for Second Life history. Finally, as long as the railbed stays, what could go there that would be better?

</speculation>

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Posted just now

Again, the statue, while more linked to Crumbi Junction, is not in the region Crumbi. It's in Tenera, where the Volunteer HQ, now torn down, was located. It is awkwardly put on a small parcel now and actually rooted on one parcel, while somewhat extending to another. It's at risk of return just for that reason. While the author last logged into SL in April 2022, it's not clear if he knows what is happening to his statue and has a copy.

This idea that Patch is sentimental about SL history, and is an "archivist" is extremely relative and unpredictable. Yes, I've heard him answer the question about "what is to happen with Linden historical builds" with this very claim, that he has a soft spot for old Linden structures and is an archivist at heart. But we've never heard whether the Dragon build in the old Linden Homes, for example, will definitely be saved, or for that matter, all the other park builds there, and where they will go. We have no idea what might be slated next, any or all of the railroad builds, some of which Qie has identified as "not as good as others"? What is the criteria?

We just saw how the Archivist either ordered or allowed an entire historical build to be torn down, with no announcement (so that people could take pictures) and no indication of what will come in its place. We have no idea if the Archivist likes robots or is ensuring this build is properly parceled, if the owner can't be reached. (Of course, Lindens can take a copy of a resident build if they must). We have no idea if the parcels will get a new Linden build (unlikely) or be offered at least intact to encourage the new owner to put something attractive there.

The claim has been made that residents can contact Patch with ideas for "updating" and "repurposing" old Linden builds, and we never, ever heard whether this claim is true, and if so, whether it will be done on a "first come, first served" random basis or through the JIRA (which I think is a terrible idea) or merely quietly by the Lindens themselves, by their own lights.

All we know for certain is that "Linden protection" is a seriously eroded term now. Nobody should be purchasing land on the auction on that basis. Any or all old Linden builds of any type, whether "good" or "bad," whether Patch can be assumed to be "sentimental" or not, are up to grabs. You can cite reasons for why *this* build was different -- it had a lot of wasted, empty space after the sandbox was moved; it was large and primmy and belonged to a group that the Lindens didn't wish to maintain (maybe they are making a new one?) even if it looked like the Coliseum. *It was built by residents, not Moles* -- that made it more vulnerable for sure. You could say "but the Moth Temple, built only by Xenon Linden, is different, that has been updated and optimized recently, is an infohub, and has up to date signs". Or you could say "The Lindens have no reason to remove all the resident-built train stations, they don't take up much space." But you can't know, especially after how dramatically quickly the Volunteer HQ build was removed, within days, with no notice, following a call to do so some months ago.

The fact is, the Lindens, without any notice, heard a build declared "useless" or in need of "removal" or "repurposing" and as always, some people got their ear, and they acted. You have no idea when and how they might act again. The call for making a plan and making a criteria is not being heeded because it does not have to be. We have seen how the Lindens arbitrarily took one resident RP group and elevated it to the BBB, then enabled that group to design and deploy a stamp game on their own historical builds. Other resident groups didn't get to do this and began agitating about and around these builds, and got attention and concessions.

While once, the Lindens themselves created the concept of "Linden protected roads" and "Linden protected civic spaces" as a way to make their own land more valuable and sold it on the auctions -- and still do -- with that concept. Now, we see its limitations.

It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that for the Lindens, the civic space -- parks, rez areas, railroad, bridle paths, etc. -- in Bellisseria is way, way more important than the Mainland. Nothing on the legacy Mainland has been *added*, even if some roads have been fixed or even completed in one case, even as others are deliberately left undone.

With every program they have opted to do with residents, the BBB ambassadors, stamp game and events, like the recent very elaborate and complex NatureCon involving only select "preservation" groups, the Lindens have let us know that they view the old Mainland as at best, a safari destination or temporary event location to provide "things to do" -- with partners that they select on their own criteria. They don't view it as a place where people buy land and live in residences or have small stores or even nature projects on their own. What they would rather have are large transportation RP games that again, are in the "things to do" category for the masses and help sell premium accounts and content. "Nature" is about railroads and developed park or story destinations, not "the wilds" in any sense of the old Mainland, good or bad.

Second Thoughts

09/02/2022

Some People Got Their Way - Duplicate Forum Post

Some People Get Their Way

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