Bot Detectors - 2006

Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

or search the achive:  

Second Life Forums Archive > Resident Forums > Content Creation > Scripting Tips

Bot Detection
Rock Ryder Registered User Join date: 6 Oct 2006 Posts: 384	04-23-2007 12:05 Following a meeting of Estate Owners, I have been given the task of investigation the feasibility of a bot detector. I will admit from the start that I know very little about programming or scripting, so I turn to the experts in this field for an answer. From what I have been told in this forum and elsewhere, a bot is an avatar under program control, and can do anything a normal avatar can do, only much faster. So may be this is the key. We are looking for a method to detect bots when they are on a sim, and if possible, to detect them when they are on an adjacent sim, scanning into a sim. While the possibilities may be debated here, if anyone has a clear method, and the wherewithall to construct such a bot detector, we are willing to listen to any proposal, and to fund the most feasible idea. If you have a clear idea of how this may be achieved please contact me directly outlining your idea, and the likely cost, to [email][email protected][/email] Rock
tre Zobel Registered User Join date: 21 Jan 2006 Posts: 55	04-23-2007 15:34 Plausable, but pretty impossible. I can't really see any way of detecting bots that I may or may not own using scripts to do... what exactly? Detect erratic movements? Detect when an object is sat on by the same avatar really fast? All of this can be done by regular humans (and if not the bots could be altered to overcome any LSL script that tries to even think about detecting them). Only LL can stop my (non)existant bots.  Sorry, no dice  . --Tre Giles _____________________ OMFG I FOUND HACKS TO SECONDLIFE ON GOOGLE??? Hacks!!!? Found on google lmao!
Kenn Nilsson AeonVox Join date: 24 May 2005 Posts: 897	04-23-2007 16:13 The question...really...is why would anyone care? Bots exist...it's really not a big deal. They scan for information...so? _____________________ --AeonVox-- Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms chasing ghosts, eating magic pills, and listening to repetitive, addictive, electronic music.
Alicia Sautereau if (!social) hide; Join date: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 3,125	04-23-2007 16:58 maybe a network of range and speed scanning sensors, anyone moving faster then a certain speed gets auto banned? dunno if it`s detectable but if they are this fast, it`s a good way of identifying them
Osgeld Barmy Registered User Join date: 22 Mar 2005 Posts: 3,336	04-23-2007 21:31 From: Alicia Sautereau maybe a network of range and speed scanning sensors, anyone moving faster then a certain speed gets auto banned? dunno if it`s detectable but if they are this fast, it`s a good way of identifying them not really, anyone with a ao can walk super fast, vheicles, teleporters warp-pos THINK OF THE WARP POS CHILDEREN
Tegg Bode FrootLoop Roo Overlord Join date: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 5,707	04-23-2007 23:57 Hmm, I wonder if combat enabled land surrounding a 16m plot selling at $1/m if a dozen killbots could beat the landbot with good autocannons before it could buy?  Some bait for copybots & searchbots might go down well too  Maybe if the killbot could use landtools and was made owner of the land it could freeze them and keep them all stuck there like flypaper
Kri Ayakashi Registered User Join date: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 3	04-24-2007 03:21 From: Tegg Bode Hmm, I wonder if combat enabled land surrounding a 16m plot selling at $1/m if a dozen killbots could beat the landbot with good autocannons before it could buy?  Some bait for copybots & searchbots might go down well too  Maybe if the killbot could use landtools and was made owner of the land it could freeze them and keep them all stuck there like flypaper  Actually I think that's the only way... You would have to understand the bot's algorithms and find a flaw in them. Creating a honeytrap like that for search/buy bots could just work if done properly. But I think this would be just temporary as bot owners would adapt their algorithms to avoid such traps. Anyway could be fun to see all these bots ending up shot or caged
Newgate Ludd Out of Chesse Error Join date: 8 Apr 2005 Posts: 2,103	04-24-2007 03:30 As discussed in the orginal thread, You cannot detect that someone is looking at your prims, which is all a bot will be doing. It wont be using an LSL scanner, merely a stripped down 'client' with a hyped up draw range. If a bot 'touches' something then yes it would be possible to detect that they are not in the same sim but a similar situation occurs if you touch an object across any sim boundary.
Ed Gobo ed44's alt Join date: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 220	04-24-2007 05:16 If this is really to be solved (and I am not sure that it needs to be) you could petition LL to send prim data in two formats, much like textures are sent multiple times till you get the full effect. So firstly you would get just enough detail about a prim so it can show up in the distance and follow it with a better definition if the client camera goes near it. That is pretty much the way textures work now. Remember, though, that the camera is a client function. Secondly, the server should only recognize touches and edits and send the associated data if the client's user was reasonably near the prim. The server does know where the client is at all times and could test for this before allowing edit or touch commands to the object. That would also solve the problem of someone (either a bot or a human) entering a house by moving the camera into that house and selecting "sit" on an object in the house. They could still enter the house by sitting on an object and moving that object in with an edit, but there might be countermeasures to that. The only way you will solve anything like this is from the server. The overall effect of this might be to reduce lag, but I don't think builders will like these limitations.
Vi Shenley Still Rezzing Join date: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 103	04-24-2007 07:55 From: Newgate Ludd As discussed in the orginal thread, You cannot detect that someone is looking at your prims, which is all a bot will be doing. It wont be using an LSL scanner, merely a stripped down 'client' with a hyped up draw range. If a bot 'touches' something then yes it would be possible to detect that they are not in the same sim but a similar situation occurs if you touch an object across any sim boundary. Why would a bot only 'look' at a prim. What information could it retrieve doing that? Surely a prim HAS to be touched in order for a bot (the current version being referred to in the other forums) to detect if it is for sale or not, the owner, and the price. I don't understand why you say that 'looking' is 'all the bot will be doing'. Could you elaborate a little please?
Meade Paravane Hedgehog Join date: 21 Nov 2006 Posts: 4,845	04-24-2007 08:05 From: Vi Shenley Why would a bot only 'look' at a prim. What information could it retrieve doing that? Surely a prim HAS to be touched in order for a bot (the current version being referred to in the other forums) to detect if it is for sale or not, the owner, and the price. I don't understand why you say that 'looking' is 'all the bot will be doing'. Could you elaborate a little please? I think Newgate meant 'touch'' as in right-clicking on it and selecting Touch. _____________________ Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!! - Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224 - If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left
Newgate Ludd Out of Chesse Error Join date: 8 Apr 2005 Posts: 2,103	04-24-2007 08:07 From: Vi Shenley Why would a bot only 'look' at a prim. What information could it retrieve doing that? Surely a prim HAS to be touched in order for a bot (the current version being referred to in the other forums) to detect if it is for sale or not, the owner, and the price. I don't understand why you say that 'looking' is 'all the bot will be doing'. Could you elaborate a little please? We are not talking about an LSL controlled /driven object. Bot clients have full access to the underlying data transfer protocols and are not in anyway constrained by the normal client GUI interface. My understanding of it is that the bot will be working in a manner similar to a network packet sniffer. (Its kind of ironic since that is how most of the protocols where reverese engineered in the first place.) Again it is my understanding that basic packets include some, if not all, of the basic data entiy information such that the bot would be able to obtain the UUID of the object and them make its own data server requests without needing to 'touch' anything.
Tre Giles Registered User Join date: 16 Dec 2005 Posts: 294	04-24-2007 08:42 From: Ed Gobo If this is really to be solved (and I am not sure that it needs to be) you could petition LL to send prim data in two formats, much like textures are sent multiple times till you get the full effect. So firstly you would get just enough detail about a prim so it can show up in the distance and follow it with a better definition if the client camera goes near it. That is pretty much the way textures work now. Remember, though, that the camera is a client function. Secondly, the server should only recognize touches and edits and send the associated data if the client's user was reasonably near the prim. The server does know where the client is at all times and could test for this before allowing edit or touch commands to the object. That would also solve the problem of someone (either a bot or a human) entering a house by moving the camera into that house and selecting "sit" on an object in the house. They could still enter the house by sitting on an object and moving that object in with an edit, but there might be countermeasures to that. The only way you will solve anything like this is from the server. The overall effect of this might be to reduce lag, but I don't think builders will like these limitations. um... no... I use the camera sit to get around my builds when I build, and I build huge, sometimes in different sims at once, and when releasing my cam constraints I would like to keep the ability to touch my objects from sim away. heh. If you don't want ppl to sit in your house, link the prims and put an unsit script in there (<--- WARINING, only for the crazies) _____________________   "The Dirt Gods Are Pleased"     OMFG I FOUND HACKS TO SECONDLIFE ON GOOGLE??? Hacks!!!? Found on google lmao!
RJ Source Green Sky Labs Join date: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 272	04-24-2007 08:55 Detecting bots actuallty has a lot of similarities to detecting crawlers or robots and other automated processes surfing web sites. One way this was addressed was to define a voluntary method that crawler authors would use (via checking a robots.txt file), and then web owners could define what to do when one of these self-identified crawlers came calling. So the equivalent approach in SL would be perhaps to define a standard in which the crawlers would respond on a standard chat channel as to their bot capabilities, and respect a command set there (like DENY from the parcel owner.) Another way that is wide-spread is the challenge approach: displaying a random graphic of letters that the visitor must type back. Rj
2fast4u Nabob SL-ice.net Join date: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 542	04-24-2007 09:18 From: RJ Source Another way that is wide-spread is the challenge approach: displaying a random graphic of letters that the visitor must type back. Slightly off topic - I have seen a 'hack' that defeats this. It is a social engineering hack for web sites. The hack gets someone to type the correct letters, but for another reason. The user typing the letters believes that he is doing that to get at something, when in fact the image is coming from someplace else and is feeding a web bot instead. It is an ingenious way of getting around the test since the web bot basically grabs the image, posts it elsewhere (in another application - or web site that contains something of interest to lots of people *cough), and gets someone to type in the letters/numbers to get something (maybe a picture or something). I would imagine that it would relatively easy to get this type of social engineering hack to work in SL. I agree with the others in this thread that it is not necessary to know when bots are around. In fact, the more we try to setup countermeasures, the more interesting the task of defeating the countermeasure becomes - thereby making the creation of bots that much more interesting (and valuable to someone).
Elanthius Flagstaff Registered User Join date: 30 Apr 2006 Posts: 1,534	04-24-2007 09:25 What are you going to do if the bot is looking at your prims from 50 sims away?
Meade Paravane Hedgehog Join date: 21 Nov 2006 Posts: 4,845	04-24-2007 09:25 From: RJ Source Another way that is wide-spread is the challenge approach: displaying a random graphic of letters that the visitor must type back. Any store that spams with that will quickly lose my business. _____________________ Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!! - Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224 - If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left
Kenn Nilsson AeonVox Join date: 24 May 2005 Posts: 897	04-24-2007 09:57 I think the endpoint of the whole discussion is simply: Bots are generally harmless information collection/land buying agents. It is easy to circumvent land-bots if you want to sell your land to a certain individual or group and if you don't, then having a bot buy your land is no different from having a person do so... ...if the bot is collecting information, they are doing nothing that a normal avatar could not do (albeit much slower). And...it's not like the bot is able to collect your credit card number or anything... The aversion people have to bots really surprises me. Perhaps they don't know that all of this data collection, land-buying, currency-trading, etc. also goes on in "RL"? Personally...I could care less if some bot knew I was selling stuff in my store. OMG...invasion of my privacy! Oh...wait...I have it listed in search, on SLEx, and on SLB... For the record...I don't own any bots, program any bots, etc...and I don't necessarily plan to. I just feel it's ridiculous that people are so adverse to them. _____________________ --AeonVox-- Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms chasing ghosts, eating magic pills, and listening to repetitive, addictive, electronic music.
Tre Giles Registered User Join date: 16 Dec 2005 Posts: 294	04-24-2007 12:48 From: someone In fact, the more we try to setup countermeasures, the more interesting the task of defeating the countermeasure becomes - thereby making the creation of bots that much more interesting (and valuable to someone). Exactly From: someone The aversion people have to bots really surprises me. Perhaps they don't know that all of this data collection, land-buying, currency-trading, etc. also goes on in "RL"? I think that most people are scared that bots are stealing their money. Howso? Think of the camping chairs and the auto-sit/resit feature, with the money I am..er... can making off of my bots I could pay rent for a small studio home with a wife and a kid. Think of this: lets "pretend" I do have about 20 alter avatar charecters. I put them at the finest establishments that offer the highest prices around SL. Unlike SL of Old Times, a camping chairs' highest price I've seen would be about 10L per 10 minutes without using the poker features. Too bad they took away dwell, and with it the bang behind the chair. Who doesn't reminisce of the now un-usual 5L per 2-3 minutes? Anyways Have them sit around for days, weeks, maybe even months before being discovered (even A year) and using the bots features send all the money to my main charecter. Now I got lots of Ls. Get the money out of SL by not only using linden X and dividing the money up between the alters to export it and get past the 2000 dollar limit, but also use every other find-able service, like Anshe Chung's little linden website. Now I got lots of USDs. --------- Thats what I think everyone is afraid of, even knowing there are many LSL scripting methods that could easily put a stop to this, I have never encountered one. _____________________   "The Dirt Gods Are Pleased"     OMFG I FOUND HACKS TO SECONDLIFE ON GOOGLE??? Hacks!!!? Found on google lmao!
Kenn Nilsson AeonVox Join date: 24 May 2005 Posts: 897	04-24-2007 13:36 Well...let's look at a bot using a camping chair... 1--Camping chairs are built for AFK avatars to sit and earn money while increasing traffic for the land-owner. 2--A 'bot' is an...AFK avatar...sitting and earning money while increasing traffic for the land-owner. Personally, I HATE camping chairs and the artificial traffic-boosts they give people...but you have to admit that bots and camping chairs = perfected symbiosis. I definitely wouldn't see such an action as problematic if I were camp-chair owner. _____________________ --AeonVox-- Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms chasing ghosts, eating magic pills, and listening to repetitive, addictive, electronic music.
Cindy Crabgrass Crashed to Desktop Join date: 9 Sep 2006 Posts: 158	04-24-2007 13:41 Linden Labs could protect your Prim privacy. Imagine this : -you raise the Ban Lines, only your trusted Friends can enter your Parcel (you MUST do this, otherwise privacy is impossible) -you enable a new Switch in the Parcel Options (not existant yet) its labeled 'stealth' or something -now, only your Friends (the ones at the Access List) can see your Prims. To all others, the Parcel looks empty. This would reduce Lag on the Mainland a lot, because the Prim Data will not be transferred to Intruders or Bots. No Data Transfer = full Data Protection. You want to 'fight' bots ? Impossible. Only a passive Protection will ever work. _____________________