Second Thoughts

Where Does the Money Go?

It's curious how people have come up to me and asked me about what I think of the financial crisis, just because I'm opionated and seem to know about other things. But I honestly don't have an opinion yet, nor an understanding. I'm surely not alone in this. I was listening to a rather important and smart man talk yesterday who was asked about his opinion, and he said quite frankly, that he didn't understand the connection "between finance and the real economy". The stock market with its words of stocks and derivatives and shorts and longs and hedges is a mystery, even if you happen to own stock, or have a pension fund that is "diversified" -- or so you hope.

Where does that money go, when it is lost? Popular articles like this try to help you understand. But you may still be baffled -- I know I am.

What I do know is that the story of foreclosures is a lot more complicated -- and not as widespread as people believe. Here's an article Fleep found that lets us know that this already iconic meme of the greedy banker and the slacker American living beyond his means accounts for only 3 percent of mortages (yes! only 3 percent!) in those states hardest hit:

"Even in states with the most foreclosures — Ohio, Michigan and Indiana — those foreclosures still represent just 0.5 percent of all mortgages. In regions with the most subprime lending that also have struggling local economies, foreclosures may rise to 1.5 percent or 2 percent of all mortgages, Wachter predicts."

Problems aren't about buying so much as refinancing, or getting high-cost lines of credit on a property.

My own direct experience of foreclosure on our mother's house lets me know the picture is anything but the simplified caricatures we read in the mainstream media, or on the blogosphere. When I read the snarky comments by Silicon Valley like those of Jason Calicanis, to the effect that people are living beyond their means, I can only stare. People who live entirely off VC capital? Telling *us* that, who have worked hard all our lives and been paid by the hour or by the standard wage, with the standard savings account -- instead of by stock options or buyouts of their widgets? My parents worked hard all their lives, and saved. They sold a house after we kids left, for more than they had paid, and for more than the mortgage, and moved into a small apartment -- and saved. They had a summer house -- and they paid off the mortgage on that house on the Cape, which was cold in the winter. They had a small condo in Florida which they bought within their means -- with all those savings, with all those pensions carefully guarded by their managers all those years -- that was mortgaged -- and not by some greedy banker, but by their neighbour, perhaps some guy they went to church with or played golf with. There was no greed. There was no slacking and laziness. There was hard work and trust.

The Taken

Gustave Dore's illustration for John Milton's Paradise Lost.

I never blog about the topic of Second Life personal relationships because I think public relationships and ideas and politics are just more interesting. And I guess because I've seen it all -- and I find it a fairly boring subject, SL love. It's not about cynicism. Cynicism isn't the word to describe having a vantage point where the veil is constantly lifted to reveal tawdriness and banality. As a rentals agent, you can imagine the panorama of broken second -- and first -- lives I've seen spread out before me! Whether it's two she-males strapping them on or a dragon huffing for a fox, or three green dots that merge as one, the story is always pretty basic and I think it's safe to say, a realm of high deception and the stunning mundane.

I often see newbie women especially with this kind of profile, "No, I don't want to have sex with you." Or, more delicately, "Not interested in SL relationship." I look at these badges of courage now with a weather eye after these years in the Sims and SL -- and I bet dollars to donuts that the first one is someone who has never actually been *asked* to have sex even by the random day-old randy newb in the welcome area, and the second one is in fact all too interested but afraid and not wanting to seem too eager. She's hoping someone will override the default.

There is nothing more self-deceiving -- and really a failure at deceiving others -- than the man who puts on his profile "Happily married in RL." The male who feels called upon to do that has had one of two things happen to him. He has become too promiscuous in his Deep Meaningful Relationships with his online women (or men dressed with female avatars) and has now unleashed a situation where somebody is making demands for a more real-lifey relationship, and he now has to put the signal flags up and wave them madly. OR he doesn't trust himself to stop being flirty and sending the wrong signals that in fact he *is* looking so he has to put up the big pen around his avatar. Or he simply needs, in telling his online story, to convince himself of something that he surely hasn't convinced you of by putting up the sign.

I've never met a truly happily married person that felt the need to advertise this status -- when I see people with this banner on in SL, I wince. I know they are cruisin' for a bruisin' -- if not of themselves, other people whom they will not have convinced, either. I've never seen people who really have relationships where they are utterly taken ever have to advertise this so heavily on their profiles -- to mark the status is to let everyone know that you have to shore up virtuality -- as reality could come knocking at the door any moment.

Eep More What Blue Erases

Eek, I take that back. Blue has erased MORE. I really am puzzled now since I really tried to make this absolutely straightfoward. No hyperbole, no valid assumptions, just questions, and just some very level-headed expression of concern.

I have to figure it's my penetrating question about disciplinary actions that don't show up on the police blotter. I think I've nailed something here. It's long troubled me. And now I see I was probably right to be troubled.

Sigh. Now the blog is filling up with the usual sort of entry on cases like this. "Oh, stop being so political. I don't care about Linden Lab and its policies. I don't want CNN, either [p.s. this is part of the reason why America is the way it is in the world, and disliked by many other nations *cough*].  I don't want to hear about public trials for griefers. I just want mouse wheel to work on chat so I can get back to my cybering, fuck you very much."

Well, I don't see why mouse-wheel fixing, which is obviously something they're all keenly eager to fix for themselvs, too, should in any way detract from a once-a-month community effort to figure out what Linden policy is and try to contribute to it. I find these community tables are more about just getting the skinny from LL, which can be secretive and confusing and contradictory, than it is in "participating in decision making". The awful thing is, howeve, if you show up at these things, they will then say, oh, but the community participated! When they do ram a decision down your computer software installation later, you can't say the community wasn't involved!

I can see I have been socially-engineered to death now and it probably makes no sense to try to post on these sanitized gleaming porcelain-white Linden blogs. To do so runs the risk of him deleting, and then leaving his response to your original response to stand and tendentiously portray you as having conceded a point you didn't.

I have no idea how old Blue Linden is, but I'm thinking he's probably in his 20s, part of the whole tekkie conformist generation afraid of robust speech and expression of opinion and looking over their shoulders to the company line, the most conformist generation since the 1950s, Babbits, they are. Eek. A particularly manipulative thing he does is say, "Oh, I'm just trying to keep this safe and constructive for teens." Huh? Teens are logging on to the adult site at www.secondlife.com, or is his blog now also viewable to the TG log-ins? If there is to be a Blue Linden teen grid blog, fine, then we shouldn't even be posting in it then. But...he was at the community round table opining on various stuff, which is why I even posted there.

I noticed that on Robin's blog, I was never deleted. I and others put up some very critical stuff. We also argued with each other, something that's hard to do on these blogs. But she left it alone. And that's what all these Lindens should be doing on these blogs. The idea that they should savagely keep editing out and destroying people's participation, and socially-engineering them into silence unless they talk only in Helpful Hint Speak, is just atrocious.

What can we do with these Lindens? Honestly, I have to throw up my hands at the way they act sometimes, and convince myself to just keep walking around the robots.

REMOVED FROM COMMUNITY ROUND TABLE THREAD BY BLUE LINDEN

Dear Blue,

Thanks for that elaboration. I'm going to try to distill the justice issues here further so that you can see the issues, some emerging from this CRT, others continually discussed on the forums:

1. The reason many, many residents have the impression that "abuse reports go nowhere" and "appeals that get sent to abuse-manager@lindenlab.com go nowhere" is that no one ever, ever sees any report on them.

Like the police blotter reports of avatar crimes investigated, prosecuted, and persons sentenced, showing location, offense, and duration of sentence, so the police blotter, or some other record, should say "decision reversed," i.e. vacated, when you take action to reverse a case through realizing an error, or through receiving additional testimony. It would be helpful to know what percentage of such cases were reversed to see how effective the appeals system is. Such publication of reversals, i.e. a rectification of the public record that had once claimed an offense took place, would go a long way toward restoring faith in this system, and restoring faith that Lindens are not pulled back and forth by specious, tendentious, and malicious abuse reports designed to settle scores.

2. By the same token, an appearance of police blotter offenses that sentenced people to warnings or 3 days for maliciously and falsely abuse-reporting would also let us know that you do not tolerate misuse of this system to settle scores. Example:  if someone deliberately harries, harrasses, flys up on, bombs, shoots someone and pushes them into a PG sim, and they, under fire like this, inadvertently swear, that they, in fact a victim of harassment and shooting and abuse, now find themselvse now AR'd and blocked from SL 3 days because they were spiked and put in PG to swear.

3. Next, I really would like to see an answer to this very simple question, if you can give it: does LL publish on the police blotter ALL cases in which it has taken disciplinary action or only SOME, i.e. because they simply can't fit?

The "can't fit" argument doesn't seem persuasive because we see things like 5 cases in a row, obviously all from the same gansta posse, that will say "Shooting in Waterhead, suspended 3 days" 5 times, when you could obviously group the cases into one police blotter entry and save yourself space.

The "can't publish all" might have some ramifications I'm not aware of. But THAT you do not publish all disciplinary actions is very clear to any of us having to file numerous reports every day from our businesses, and also seeing that indeed you do take action -- the people are either disappearing for 3-7 days or they are gone completely. I know of dozens of very specific cases, involving everything from fire-prim bombing to theft through invisi-prims to hate-sign mongering etc. etc. that Lindens have received reports on, resolved the report, and then even seemingly taken action. Yet they never "show up" on the police blotter. Why?

4. The police blotter would do well to get memory, more space, so that it can be 30 days or even 90 days and be searchable.

5. You're coming at this discussion, as are some residents, with the idea: "Blacklists are good. Blacklists us help mass-control griefers. Griefers are bad. Griefers are people who shoot and trespass in our houses on our poseballs while we're out. Griefers must be banned and kept away by any means," etc. " As someone constantly dealing with shooters and griefers, trust me, I understand this position, but I also see the dark side of it.

I participate in a number of mass group lists with hundreds of people constantly adjudicating these cases on the fly. And trust me, it's not pretty. Please think through what the notion of "mass blacklists run from third-party sites" means for people's freedom to live their second lives.

Examples:

a. A man sees a woman come into the parcel next to him on a commercial sim in the private islands. She's his rival. She's flying around building her store and he decides she's "griefing" him by setting up a competing store. He's a big deal in the world, and she's not. He decides that she needs to get mass -banned, and not only from this sim by the original private-sim owner, but by everybody in his networks. This new would-be competitor finds herself suddenly banned from a private island, and then banned from hundreds of others, as well as clubs, and other venues just because she tried to compete in the same market as this more well-known avatar. What is her recourse? Where can she appeal these decisions?

b. A woman sells a piece of furniture at a yard sale and the original creator takes a fit, claiming she has stolen a perm'd version of it, or claiming she simply has no right to sell it even if she didn't copy it and had merely a resell version. He ARs her, threatens RL legal action, and bans her from every parcel he can get his hands on. He also arranges with all the major venues throughout SL, whether they be for live music concerts, or radio shows like Infinite Minds, or new store openings like American Apparel, or whatever he has entree too, let's imagine, to get her banned and blackballed. She's cooked in SL.

c. A newbie makes a clunky plywood house and can't get control of his prims. They fly around off world and land on other people's property. He can't get his game working and can't get himself logged back into SL. All the people on the sim decide he is a prim-griefer dropping his prims when he's just cludgy trying to make his house. They all ban him, and put his name on a mass-ban list, and he finds no one will let him rent anywhere ever again.

d. A private sim owner of an attractive and innovative venue doesn't like what someone has written on the forums. He hasn't griefed her venue, hasn't shot or verbally abused or done anything inworld -- he just has an opinion she doesn't like and she finds his comments about her opinion "an attack". She bans him from her sim. Others in her circle ask to share her ban list. She spreads the ban list far and wide and this person finds themselves unexpectedly banned from other interesting venues when trying to take newbies to show them around. When he contacts the next venue's owner, they have no idea why his name is in the ban list; but they are afraid to remove it -- what if the previous owner/ban list spreader "knows something"? So that owner stalls. The newbies go from trusting the person showing them around to fearing they are a griefer, if they are banned from parcels. Only orthodox opinion becomes acceptable then.

I could cite hundreds of real and hypothetical examples of the misuse of mass-banning like this. As you can see, in this very round table some said some kind of judicial committee would have to be available to take appeals on these mass bans. Your response might be -- well, residents will have to make that themselves. But the response of someone finding themselves banned "for any reason or no reason," who might pay tier to you, and have expectations of the enjoyment of SL, finds for all kinds of reasons people simply block him. What will you say to this situation?

You laugh at phrases like "kangaroo" courts" or "res-justices". They seem improbable to you. Resmods for the forums seemed improbably a year ago too, eh? Yet we got them. SL Voices with an advisory committee of resident experts who had been to the Lab seemed improbable, too, a year ago, yet we got them. Thousands of helpers, greeters, mentors, and instructors didn't seem a reality a year ago, yet today they're everywhere, and some would argue, acting with impunity in some instances.

So it is eminently reasonable to ask: where will the superior courts, the higher instances of appeal be for all these resident-based justice systems, which are likely to be rough, frontier justice especially at the start?

Given that LL keeps supplying the tools to do things like mass-ban all unverified accounts, or mass-ban giant lists and tie them to third-party servers, LL is in fact very much taking part in rough resident frontier justice, and very much taking sides in the issue of how harsh resident justice systems should be. Answer: as harsh as you can make them.

What Blue Linden Erases: Jury System to 'Creep Out of the Side Alley'?

In case you once again missed a very important Community Round Table meeting (they come on a schedule, but you have to get on an internal LL mailing list to get notices of it, ask the Community Lindens for information about how to get on it), the one this last week had some highly troublesome indications about what's in store for "justice" in Second Life.

Read the transcript first, if you  can remain patient through all the usual fanboyz  banter and fast-scrolling multi-topic  unmoderated chat, and pay attention to what's being said about  the police blotter and something as yet uknown to be rolled out later "creeping into the alley," as Torley put it.

I added a post the other day to this blog -- it was longish but I felt it was a thoughtful, albiet troubled post in response to this transcript. I don't feel there's anything in it that violates any type of TOS on the forums, in letter or spirit. I then started a conversation about what troubled me privately in email with Blue Linden. We went a few rounds, and in the end, what he did was remove my post entirely from the Community Round Table blog entry. Here it is, judge for yourself whether it should be removed -- and whether this is further indication of how much we do have to worry about how the Metaverse justice system is going to be made.

One update:  I contacted the very influential budding media mogul machinimist Tao Takashi, and asked him why he had made a decision not to include my blog in his blogroll. He didn't respond immediately, but then I got an answer saying that he didn't understand why I made that assumption. Well, I made that assumption because....he didn't include my blog? He said that he put in all blogs if they related to Second Life if people wrote in and submitted them. I'm simply unable to believe that ALL the blogs listed in Tao Takashi's blogroll were all submitted by their authors -- obviously he started out with his own favourite blogroll, added to it, and then here and there some people requested to be added. So I urge everyone to request to be added, because if you don't make that request, you may not be.

Prok

Post removed from Community Round Table blog

There are some profoundly troubling things going on here in this Community Round Table, and it’s happening almost by stealth, because most people can’t participate in these sessions and it seems that there really isn’t any sincere intent to have residents *participate* in making these hugely important decisions about mass communication and a justice system in Second Life, but are merely given a chance to express their feelings and *adapt to what’s prepared already*.

      First, on communications. Torley writes up a regular report to her fellow Lindens on what “the community” is doing, as we know. Here, we see that she says, “[9:30] Torley

Linden : i personally ham watching Resident blogs via Tao’shttp://www.worldofsl.com !” — and that feed is just *whatever Tao feels like putting in*. Some things are left out accidently or deliberately; it’s just Tao’s subjectivefeed. Suddenly, elevated to Torley’s RSS presented to the rest of the Lindens, it’s set in stone. Worse, she now has the concept to put this sort of feed into the user interface and even word search out of it. Huh? This is awful stuff. It means thatthe state takes no responsibility for information dissemination with any kind ofstandards, and it means that it can constantly hide behind its “hands-off” approachthat “this is all resident content” when that content is tendentious or problematic.

This is exactly what was wrong with the concept of InfoNet-only as a news feed in the infohubs. LL needs a news service *of its own* that is the gold standard about its own information, and not applaud itself that even it’s well-seasoned loyal  cadres among residents are replicating it on their own blogs.

      People are grownups and can pick and chose their reading of blogs and sites outside of SL with their own RSS feeds. The government need not hold their hand and filter and sift out residential “approved” feeds that just strike this or thatLinden or “in-group” as “the greatest thing”. Instead, LL should have even a little  more effort put into Linden Radio, which is rather lame now because there’s no news on it whatsoever. It needs 5 minute headline summaries and weather on the ones like any station. If LL is going to put all this phenomenal resourcing into the orientation experience, it has to follow up on the civilizing effort with some kind of radio, if not TV, and one not put into private hands but genuinely serving the public, to which private media can provide alternatives.

      Second, there’s this extraordinary pirhouette in this CT meeting around the issue of suspension cases like Cristiano’s and others that the community has some really genuine and proper generic concerns around. Loydin quite justly raises the RL universal standard, the right to face your accuser. Together with transparency about charges brought and prosecutors involved in your case, you have the right to be present at the proceedings against you and face those who bring evidence.

      In the SL setting, to my horror, the tekkies and the Lindens both are believing that just because they have server-side transcripts of chat and actions like prim-rezzing, that they have all the facts, and therefore cross-examination, segregation of witnesses, the right to counsel, the right to appeal, the right to make a defense speech — all of these long-established and hard-won human rights to a
fair trial, universally recognized, are thrown out the window. Completely. As if irrelevant in a virtual world run by a company — when if anything they are *more required than ever due to just that very circumstance*.

      I knew there was a reason for the Lindens’ cavalier dismissal of proper justice; now I see what it is. They actually think that truth resides alone on their servers. That the client side can never house any truth. There can never be an extenuating circumstance or defense or character witness or mitigation. Whatever the all-powerful prosecutor decides in secret with the help of his police  informants will stand. This makes my hair stand on end as the foundation of the Metaverse, where many people will be spending many hours of their lives in years to come. It’s wrong, wrong, wrong, and cannot be allowed to stand.

      It would be bad enough if we had an abusive, all-powerful magistrate we had to face in this magisterial system where discovery, adversarial defense, and other aspects more typical of common-law than civil-law systems didn’t prevail, but where we could still expect some professionalism of the procedure.

      But it’s far, far, worse. We’re to be facing “our peers”. “The community”. The governance we didn’t pick, the government made not up of representatives or even acclaim, but of sim ownership or pet status. It’s appalling. This is mob rule.

      Let’s look at exactly what is said, shorn of the confusion of other topics here:

      [10:07] Loydin Tripp: If you put more of the judging and enforcement into hands of residents it will take pressure off LL

[10:08] Torley Linden: Loydin, there’s a planned move towards that–that’s another trend that’s going to creep out of the side alley into the mainstream.
      [10:08] Blue Linden: as long as it’s names and not privacy violations like chatlogs, people are free to ban residents from their land for any or no reason
      [10:08] Loydin Tripp: Like having courthouses and juries
      [10:08] Foolish Frost: Simple way to do that: Ban systems with access to a
main web server: They sense someone, send the name, and see if it’s on the ban list.
      [10:08] Torley Linden: Certanily on some private islands, I have already seen local courts. 

  More in a roleplaying capacity–*however* it does point to promising things to come.

      [10:08] Tao Takashi: I think the forums should decide whom to ban
      [10:08] Talarus Luan: I don’t know the specifics of the Blackhole list idea,
but I do hope it comes with some kind of judiciary committee which is fair about
considering requests to be removed from said list.
      [10:08] Loydin Tripp: The brings a system of advocates and mediation
      [10:09] Torley 

Linden: Talarus, talk to Travis and Mera for the goods. I can’t namedrop them enough, they’re champions.
      [10:09] Torley Linden: : Their list is centralized and decentralized at the same
time… they’ve come up with some really nice methods of approaching the problem.

      For the first time, what I see here is something I long suspected: the Lindens simply do not publish all the cases they actually *do in fact take action on* in the police blotter. The police blotter is *selective*. The police blotter is *edited down* as we can now see from this meeting. It’s not just that many residents are more and more discovering that really egregious abuses going down that they *know* the Lindens have acted on because they get a “resolved” email. It’s that people are
banned or even removed from the people list but *are not showing up in the blotter*.

The Lindens can’t give a straight answer here to the question in this meeting. Why aren’t all the cases on there?! Where are they? And I don’t mean the memory hole of the police blotter itself, where it only has the 7 days or whatever, I mean that *not all the cases are there that are processed*. Where are they?! They need to be up there! I suspect they aren’t, because they’d be too obvious as to whom they are about.

      Then what? Well, if “the community” (this vengeful mob here) gets its way, anyone with a “rap sheet,” a biased concept in some cases to be sure, will be ban-worthy.

      As we can see, there’s a real taste for vengeance because of the suffering people have had from griefers; many egg it on. There are far too many at these round tables gleefully and vindictively applauding the idea of branding POOR IMPULSE CONTROL on the foreheads of others and then banning the hell out of them all over town. Why, Blue Linden appears to be an outright liberal here, holding back the raging mob, saying, no, that would be an “invasion of privacy” to print rap sheet
info on foreheads.

      Whose? Why, prosecuting Lindens, among other things, because if we were to see what offenses were put on the foreheads of certain people, and saw their records, we’d have to gasp in disbelief. That’s all? Over THAT? In THIS way? How was that let to stand? The invasion of privacy would be of the secretive police state, not some sim lovers in a spat over who put out too many prims.

      “Empowering” the residents — whoever is the strongest, the richest, can buy up the most media space — to create giant blacklists and secret kangaroo courts is a horror, not progress. And I write as someone now spending as much as 3 hours a day fighting griefers, losing money and tenants, unable to keep one step ahead of them on all my parcels, unable to clean up their damage fast enough.

      The blacklists needed to offset the chaos of unverified accounts will sweep up into them many innocent people, however, who will have no recourse. This is the “civic redress” that Philip talked about, and yet we’ve already seen what kind of “civic redress” occurs on a community controversy like the slstats.com — half the community, who are disturbed about lack of attention to universal human rights concepts like data protection and privacy are libeled as tinfoil-hat wearers making
“noise” by the other half, who are cheered on by these same Community Round Table staff — infuriating some so much that they are willing to go to RL lawsuits because they see they can’t get Linden justice. Then this half who turn out to be “not politically correct” are to be headed for the mute list and the ban list and be made “invisible” — as if that could make their *legitimate* concerns go away!!!

      Nobody on Team Linden appears to have given any thought about how little horrid “justice commitees” work like this in RL, when, as they will be in SL, they are shorn of transparency, checks and balances, free media, and a host of other features of civil society. You’re making a system not unlike the neighbourhood committees of Cuba or a Soviet Union when you say “let’s let sim owners mass blacklist and run their own affairs and settle disputes.” Somebody data scrapes and finds out someone is up all night every night? Hm, either they are a landswooping thief or cheating on their spouse, eh? Let’s get ‘em. We have the sim committee to do so; justice is in our hands; put it on Torley’s RSS feed now to make sure everybody in SL bans the people we hate. Clearly, an unjust justice system like this will go hand in glove with a biased information system.

      When Torley tells us there is “already a planned move” that is “going to creep out of the side alley into the mainstream,” we can see that the Lindens *have already cooked up* some kind of resident justice system. What will they spring on us? More importantly, *who*? Will there be an SL Judges like there were SL Views? Will they have Inworld ResMods picked without their knowledge or drawn from picked volunteers? Will they suddenly elevate some mediators’ group to SL-wide deputized status?? The track record so far with the untransparent and undemocratic methods of
SL Views and forums resmods leaves us with a bleak prospect.

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Philip Finds His Voice But Do We Lose Ours?

The loneliness of the long-distance voicer...

Philip Linden found his voice yesterday.

But have we lost ours?

First, a brief on the yawning digital divide...the divide that divides us not yearly or weekly but hourly.

All of this happened at the Town Hall with the new format -- Philip talked in voice-over audio, and people with Skype were able to call him up on a kind of radio station and ask him questions, even have a conversation back and forth with him, and he answered. Nothing THAT new, but it was considered a breakthrough because trying to wire up all this stuff through crashy, laggy SL is a real chore and technical challenge, but it more or less worked.

But...Something gained, something lost.

In the old days before the Lindens put Voice into the world, I had a friend who had a friend who I'd see around sometimes with an interesting avatar. I didn't know anything about him. I knew his beautiful work in the world, and I could see his interestly-outfitted avatar, which changed now and then. I had no idea actually whether he was "he" or "she" in RL or where he was or what languages were his native languages.

But now I know something about him that he might have preferred simply to leave off his second-life and first-life "resume" on his avatar profile: he's deaf. He can't hear.

Before yesterday, we were all equals, and we all typed, and we all spoke and we all heard.

Now, he can't hear a town hall -- unless of course somebody keeps a running transcript for him. That can be done, but what can't be done is the yawning divide. A sim crack opened up, and some people were on one private island and floated out to sea, and left the others behind. A world that was *supposed to be* about being "better" and removing differences, veiling differences, erasing differences between people based on national origin, race, status, disability -- has had its fabric torn. Maybe torn badly.

I could put in here a long aside about those who aren't hearing impaired, but what you might call *cough* gender-impaired. That is, if anybody had the opposite gender in their avatar, they'd be a bit reluctant to have voice turned on because it would be unable to conceal their gender. Once everybody in public heard a booming male bass voice coming out of that petite flitting little fairy with the filmy, gauzy wings -- her cover would be blown, it would be 10 times harder get everybody to believe in her fairy-tude again...But I don't wish to trivialize my first point.

But...it's not only other categories of people who might like to avoid voiced -- one obvious category is people for whom English is not a first language, and they don't wish to have any accent betray their locations, nationality, origins, etc. I should they'd especially like to avoid coming on with a British accent, revealing to all the Americans who hate Brits the real reason for their fucktard behaviour on the forums, or coming on with an American accent, and revealing to all the Brits who hate Americans the real reason for their sheer stupidity in working the game. And so forth and so on. Call it one more fabric torn -- some people playing in this world with the stage curtains very heavily veil'd o'er the scene already spend a good deal of the "game" trying to tear it back to see what the person "really is" in real life where they are often presumed to have "no life" -- and all this does is make it easier for them.

Richard Bartle wrote a famous essay about these issues for Game Girl Advance:

The context was a bit different -- the importance of trying to suspend belief in MMORPGs. But some of the principles apply...it's an essay that despite its date is still linked on GGA because it is still debated including by Bartle himself at various conferences.

"If you introduce reality into a virtual world, it's no longer a virtual world: it's just an adjunct to the real world. It ceases to be a place, and reverts to being a medium. Immersion is enhanced by closeness to reality, but thwarted by isomorphism with it: the act of will required to suspend disbelief is what sustains a player's drive to be, but it disappears when there is no disbelief required.

Adding reality to a virtual world robs it of what makes it compelling - it takes away that which is different between virtual worlds and the real world: the fact that they are not the real world.

Voice is reality."

Of course, the RL-in-SL people like to turn SL merely into a kind of 3-D resume coat hanger and chat space for their next gig -- the worldness of the world is actually irritating to them.

They'll be the first to say voice is not new in SL. Lots of people have been using Team Speak and Skype and any other program that might be out there to work in groups and avoid those long stupid mad typing sessions where you sit on a prim chair and wait for your fellow avatar to get done waving his hands over an imaginary typewriter. This can take FOREVER. Sometimes people start...type..you hear the typing noise the Lindens have obsessively laid on to the sound track of SL...they keep typing...they remind me of that hilarious scene in that movie was it with Tom Hanks where he goes to the airline reservation desk and the lady types for like 20 minutes frantically in front of the screen and then says...the flight is completely booked. More often than not when that happens in SL it's because someone's game has crashed and their avatar remains connected to the server until unlogged.

Voice can help people building a sim or managing a club or running a RL-related medium -- it moves things faster, people hear tonalities, possibly they trust one another. That's they theory anyway.

The greatest thing about Voice for SL, of course, is that it will remove that last vestigial need to do any typing whatsoever during cybersex. You can just click once on the Play-Sexy device, then hands-free, talk on your Skype...if indeed any talking will need to be done.

But now...a word from our sponsors! The hyperflute! Before Philip was able to work all the levers to get on the air, somebody put on a hyperflute, some kind of electronic music-playing device sold inworld for a few hundred dollars. That advertisement sure assured THAT avatar some traffic and sales...and no doubt other FIC Power Hour aspiring ad-buyers are thinking of the potential with things like Hermia Linden's Tinies skin to Robin Linden's new gorgeous new red hair-do (gosh, I love red-heads, and that hair that is very subtly placed in ringlet curls without any of that hard-edged hoochie-hair look is really yummy -- who made that hair? they should get traffic too!).

Now back to our studio, folks.

Why did we move to voice? Well, in part it was because it turns out that Philip can't type. You know how they have these conversations in offices about really good-looking women they want to hire as secretaries until someone says...but can she type?

That was one problem. But a more urgent one was just the sheer wealth of information and nuances that Philip wants to get across these days that are hard to deliver in cramped half-sentence staccato bulletins. Of course, he could make the IM interface in SL 180 percent more user-friendly with softer edges, more space, and more features like it has in TSO, but that would be going in the not-cool direction of user-help instead of bleeding technology.

Yet listening to his voice-over of more than an hour, I couldn't hear what any new headlines are. There was no news. The same-old, same-old of "Havoc One and a Half...Still Coming!"  "Lincoln Still Dead!"

Still, the telling little asides are all part of building the knowledge base one needs to live in this world.

 

For one, Philip, CEO of Linden Lab, and Mayor of this Global Village, sounds TIRED. It must be one HELL of big job running that server farm with the 6000 people on it at any one time!

Then, there was the back and forth that some of the questioners got, that was permissible because they called in to Philip on Skype, and Jeska wasn't in between merely stripping out their questions if they weren't griefers, and they got to talk to the man directly.

So true to form as an engineer, Philip would tend to say, well, ok, great idea, but what's your plan for that? Where's the to-list? Tell me your voting proposal number.

Voting proposal number.

Wow.

That was the most scary part of this town hall. And if you thought THAT was scary...if you kept listening...you'd hear that Philip also knew by heart the numbers of other proposals and just pulled them up out of the ether in the discussion.

He reads the dumb voting proposals and knows their numbers. So those with ears to hear will listen, and get busy not only making voting proposals, but telling Il Chefe their numbers.

You know, I almost don't know where to start on this one, there are so many things wrong with it, but I'll start with the question I typed to Jeska (after battling with her for 10 minutes where she kept *answering my question herself* and not passing on the question, interspersed with those plasticine electronic customer-service smiles the Lindens beam at you:
: )
: )
: )
"I'm Customer Relationship Manager Linden, May I Help You? : ) : ) : )

FINALLY I framed a question she couldn't answer, so she passed it to El Presidente.

"Why can't we vote 'no' on the voting section on the web page?"

Philip sounded a little bit startled by the question but answered that he and Robin could think about it. Maybe it would make sense.

Of course, I know there are deep layers of conscious or unconscious ideologies at work here that explain why Cory Linden didn't code the ability to say "no" on the feature voter...but we need to keep asking and asking that question.

I don't want to live in a country where I can't vote "no".

The Lindens keep trying to make me live in a platform where I upgrade to optimal positive reinforcement status various proposals that reach a critical level of positivity as others slowly drift down to less critical levels of positivity due to their inability to attract positive-reinforcement yes-clicking mouses within a sufficient window of avatar response-time related to retinal-lock-ratios.

But I definitely want to skip over that forced-march gunky tech stuff that is based on the same ideologies of Google and Slash.dot and Wikipedia and just push at you what some code-is-lawster is pushing on you, and I definitely want to vote "no".

No.

When the Lindens can see a flashmobbed proposal that attracted, say, 327 votes for p2p, they should also see that if there are 536 votes AGAINST it that they have to give some thought about how to phase and implement the thing that they and their friends are excited about.

These Lindens always think they're going to be able to avoid and skip over RL politics and representational institutions. They think by just collecting server data and fixing various sliders and options and user interfaces that you can get government-on-a-prim.

Philip has found his voice, to be sure. But we've lost ours, even if we can fight our way past the filters of Jeska, the Second Cast, the tekkie handling the call-in number or the Skype address.

Before, in the Golden Age of Lindenor, all our questions on the forums, put in the threads, were asked of Philip. People doubt this now, and the people trying to take over the waves are lying about and spinning this now, but in fact our questions in the forums threads were indeed put before Philip.

More to the point, any questions that developed in the room during the meeting were visible, and his answer was visible.

A perfect transcript was instantly created by pressing 'select all' on "chat history".

 

Now all of that is gone -- our voice is lost.

Now, faceless avatars/tekkies/Lindens will filter the questions and relay them to Philip. Well, in part that's life in the big city. RL radio shows work that way. If President Bush does a Fireside Chat you don't get to just call him up directly and bitch at him directly.

In SL, though, we are still small enough of a town at about 6000 people logged on at any one time that knowing everybody else's business, and seeing what fucktards they are on the forums and sometimes inworld, we can't trust some of them if they get at the mike and run the show.

I think voicing helps the Lindens more than it helps us, because we aren't as easily voiced. Tekkies are scornfully and witheringly blasting non-tekkies for their failure to just download Skype for $0 and pick up some cheap pair of headphones. Yeah, I used to have Skype but turned it off eventually, it was too great a distraction.  Headphones, sure. Great. But...someone has to manage the uptake, and you can be sure by next broadcast Johnny Ming will have changed his Skype address, citing "griefers" -- which will also eliminate the ordinary person's right to know a publicly-accessible 1-800 style call-in number to a show.

What's clear from this exercise is that lots of different communication channels need to be opened up for feedback to the rulers in Second Life.

Gwyn Llewelyn would like to have these "interpreters" of the world just "emerge" and just "take power" -- in systems like the ResMod.

People who take power in that fashion don't have social legitimacy, however, whatever their attraction within a narrow circle of elites.

Traxx Hathor would just like to mute and filter out anybody who doesn't seem to be worthy of being "in our channel" and be done with them -- execute them at dawn if need be:

"To the extent that this is indeed a communications medium we can stifle malefactors by refusing to supply them with bandwidth on valuable high signal-to-noise communications channels. For example, on an individual level I like the mute function. It lets an individual explicitly choose to pay no attention to a time-wasting troublemaker such as an IM-stalker. On a group level those who own a communications channel like a forum are under no obligation to provide costly bandwidth to everybody who wants it. It makes sense to ignore those with a track record of grabbing way more than their share of bandwidth to use for self promotion and denigrating whoever is on their hate-list. In both of these cases the owner of the bandwidth is making the decision based on first hand knowledge; it's not some overarching institution doing system-wide enforcement."

This sort of paragraph assumes so much -- that there is a panel of experts who have agreed who is "denigrating"; that the "hate-list" is in fact a hate list and not perhaps merely a small group of people who in fact are hogging the airwaves themselves. An overarching institution creates law that is accessible to all against which they can see how actions are interpreted. The so-called "first-hand knowledge" is inevitably biased and the aggregate of a little elite clump's "first-hand knowledge" is not acceptable to me or the next guy with *different* first-hand knowledge.

I'm going to have to think a lot more about how you can create information channels in this soup -- one hope is that there will be many podcasters, or least 2 more than Johnny Ming and his pals from completely different worlds. Those operating Internet radios they use mainly for music and entertainment have to think a lot more about how they grapple with politics and not leave it to be merely "weather on the ones".

The townhall genre itself is limited, and it's now literally been turned on its ear, and transmogrified into a talk show.

But we need more than just talk shows -- we probably need more do-shows from our Lindens by having them come inworld much more and do focus-groups. I know it's wear-and-tear on them, but they can evaporate about 30 percent of the hatred and static about their incomprehensible decisions and policies if they just *show up* and listen -- not even talk.

The Rule of Law in Second Life

To date, with nearly three years of existence, Second Life has no rule of law. It has a strong executive, federal power, with a loyalist clique, as the ruling class and oligarchs and FIC who benefit the most from this set-up. The rest of us have to scrape by as best we can, dodging arbitrary rulings, trying to bend unjust rulings to obtain fairness, engaging in all the strategies that people engage in when they live under injustices.

There is no court, no judges, no lawyers. That is, there are now actually lawyers, and that's a good thing, at least 2, Jake Reitveld and katykiwi Moonflower (and probably others I haven't heard of) who have begun to take up cases like "takedown notices" involving copyright. They've also taken up issues like the "bait-and-switch" problem of the telehubs' removal and p2p. It was katykiwi Moonflower's letter to LL that I believe played a crucial role in alerting LL to do the right thing with the telehub buyback offer.

Building the Supreme Court (and the United Nations for that matter) are hardly any part of any authentic rule of law in Second Life. They appeared out of the sky as just some guy on the Internet's dream to build a big building and put himself in charge of it. Justice Soothsayer, the ego behind that particular exercise, is a RL law professor, but by his own admission, has no ability or resources to take on any kind of 24/7 or even 4 hour a day

He's already raised some issues about his credibility, in my book, not only by claiming the Supreme Court of the United States "engages in dispute resolution" (when its chief purpose is to issue rulings on Constitutionality).

Perhaps such exercises feed the dreams of people who always envision themselves at the heart of any justice-dispending fantasy --  arranging resolutions of disputes in magnanimous fashion, with accompanying applause on the forums, media coverage, and beaming Lindens flying overhead.

The SCOTUS-among-us (as I call it) can't possibly bring justice to our world because it has no legitimacy. Um, we have no government. Many people don't want one! We don't have the necessary conditions for government -- we don't have first a clear winner of a war, or a clear claimer of territory with an army raised to protect its borders. That is, we do have that -- we have Linden Lab who own and operate (or at least lease and operate) the servers. That's as good as it gets, and many people would prefer the Server Farmers and Software Coders as the government since they figure their chief purpose is to keep the servers turned on and working, and the new code patches coming, and everything else they add on when they have too much spare time (which they obviously have too much of, which is why they do stuff like mimic and displace resident business).

If this Server Farmers and Software Coders, Inc. were to really settle down and become a real government, they'd first have to have separation of powers: executive, judicial, legislative.

That wouldn't mean taking one of these traditional branches and renaming it "Science" like they did in Neulatenberg, which is just a hilarious way of giving the executive branch another branch to run, in a coded world (ROFL with that one!). They have to go by the thousands of years of human history, for my money anyway, if they don't want to botch it.

Many international conferences have been held, especially since the one in 1950 in Bangalore or whatever, which established solemly that separation of powers is really a good thing. And it is! It's one of the things that keeps America free and prosperous and makes it an attraction to immigrants the world over from places that only have executives, and judiciaries totally in the pocket of the executive so that they become abusive.

The SL Supreme Court had a very short life. It was formed by two college kids on winter break or something, and as soon as they got back to the paper chase in law school, it fell apart. I think it did have a big building in Cecropia or something (that may have been unrelated) but after being told by LL to change their name so as to not appear to be "official," and changing it to the Metaverse Supreme Court, like all things with metaversal aspirations, it foundered on the rocks of real life. I have no idea where these people are now. I wrote to them a few times to suggest cases -- I had some great cases, ranging from just ordinary builders' fraud on a contract, to more complicated suits against Lindens for punishing under law they had not yet disseminated, etc. Anyway, so much for that.

Next, we go SL Mediators. I had a real problem with this group, not only because it was secret and its member secret. (They claimed this was due to "griefers" -- and of course that was a reference to just one "griefer" -- me -- who challenged some of their beliefs, practices, and members LOL.) SL Mediators grew out of the Thinkers milieu -- not a milieu strong on rule-of-law concepts and universality of human rights, to say the least (they favour the ideologies of the left, Neualtenberg, etc. as their rule-by-laws).  It also was sustained primarily by the determination of Traxx Hathor to create either a blacklist or a whitelist -- on the forums, this took the form of a long and torturous debate about a Better Business Bureau (challenging business interests by advocating consumer rights and transparency). What some people really mean by that concept of "Better Business" was literally a list of groups *they* viewed as the "Better Businesses" by their own lights, without any rigourous, public criteria. Or they had in mind some vague municipal concepts more like a Chamber of Commerce (protecting business interests) where they get to pick the businesses they like and put them in a white list. Many have come and gone with this idea among the FIC and their hangers-on. It is unlikely to get any traction in SL. I formed a Consumer Advocates group with tenants, but they come and go when they have a case, and don't care to spend the time on the larger issues (as I don't). That is, when there's a broken TV and an irresponsible TV manufacturer, they gather in droves; when there is a stolen handbag design they show up for meetings to pressure that person out of malls; but then it all dies down LOL.

SL Mediators, despite its vaunted reputation, and its inclusion by Zarf Vantongerloo in his very important Nota Bene effort, turns out to have not really mediated a single case. That is, there is no track record. I had figured they had at least 10 if not 30 cases, the way they carried on about themselves and their need for secrecy -- and that they served large corporations like Nexcom or something, close to them. Turns out the secret is there is no secret! SL Mediators apparently never got a single case -- or had one it studied or got so far on, but didn't continue. So much for that! Of course, failure to act is never reason for an SL group to disband. It is a matter for consumers to look at, however, given the really urgent need for dispute resolution systems to appear and thrive in our wartorn, injust, just plain crappy world of SL on many sims where many suffer from things ranging from signs ruining their business to insane neighbours putting up huge pink rotating towers to grief people for mysterious reasons.

Nota Bene was and is a good institution to build -- the ability to take a notecarded conversation and put a hash mark on it so that "not even the Lindens" can change it. Most people think of this as useful for prepared agreements. It's also useful for capturing a chat history and getting several parties to affix their John Hancock to a statement claiming that the chat history is true -- so they can't later impugn it. Impugn it...where, I don't know, as we have no courts, but it's a start.

Nota Bene had two fatal flaws, however, crippling it as an institution that could help promote the rule of law in Second Life.

1) Nota Bene recommended as "mediation services" that could even be incorporated into an agreement between parties the "good offices" of the SL Mediators. This was wrong. For one, Zarf Vantongerloo himself was a member of SL Mediators. In some societies, where the barber has to also serve as the postmaster and the county sherriff and perform some routine surgery, this is "normal". I don't think we have to accept this double-hatting in the vast Internet where resources and people can be accessed more easily. It's a conflict of interest to both notarize and serve a notary system AND be the mediator for the agreements under it. Furthermore, SL Mediators are impugned in my book, by their secrecy and by the track record of behaviour of some of the participants, but more to the point for the public's concern, by their failure to do any mediating or have any cases. So they should just be taken off the agreements or just not promoted. Perhaps a kiosk with a variety of mediation services/lawyers/facilitators etc. could be posted on the same site as Nota Bene, but this should be reviewed.

2) Zarf Vantongerloo went and became a Linden. He says as much in his notecards. He is confirmed as now working for LL. Well, that's how it goes, LL always poaches, and sucks away from civil society, any sort of fledgling individual/institution that might help make it viable and independent. Zarf went willingly, and fails to understand these issues, as I've determined in hours-long debate with him. Neither he nor LL sees any issue whatsoever in claiming, on the one hand, "not even a Linden can tamper with this hash mark" and then BECOMING a Linden.

Now, duh, we realize that technically, not even a Linden probably can't tamper with a coded, machine-produced hashmark. It's like saying not even the makers of Crazy Glue can unglue the thing you stuck together with Crazy Glue -- there are certain laws of physics or laws of coding that even the coders can't override. But of course, like those manufacturers, the Lindens have their corrosive capacities as well. They can easily impugn the truth of a document, made client-side, if server-side, they essentially control the documentation. They can easily come up with a notecard copy or chat history of their own, that they may tamper with, and say "here's what we accept as true". Of course, you except the Lindens not to do stuff like that. But server-side, who's to know?

It's like when Lindens comes forward and says the bork in the "buy for group" the other day is "user error". Then when it was finally beaten into them that it wasn't a "user error" but a bug, they said "it will be fixed". Well, it was...but not quite on the timetable expected. And its appearance is the sign of a more distressing feature, not bug, etc. Lindens are not infallable, and they pursue their own agenda. See above re: separation of powers. There are no separation onf powers in Second Life. There is no independent judiciary, and when attempts begin to appear, they destroy them (tell them to change their name), co-opt them (Zarf) or ignore but tacitly fete them by showing up and cheering at Thinkers' Meetings (SL Mediators) or tacitly supporting them (Democracy Island). There's also no legislature. Of course, these could all be tortuously brought into being in this toy world -- but only by indigenous forces, not by plunking down some big-ass replica of SCOTUS and opening it up for business as a "resource" for the "community".

(We could have a separate debate whether a resource of SCOTUS decisions in a library are really relevant to the very executive-run SL, that's another story.)

The picture does indeed seem bleak in SL. There isn't justice, and a whole range of issues nevertheless crying out for justice, and people urgently in need of justice, from billing problems that never get addressed, to failure to enforce the existing TOS against the Bush Guy, to allowing favouritism in enforcement on the forums, to very unclear laws about how Lindens can participate in resident groups (they appear to be currently using their "work-related groups" escape clause to let themselves take part in all kinds of groups, from the wild, like Suicide Girls, to the hip, like Digital Cultures and Free Culture, to the troublesome, like Bedazzled Studio --oh, well, it's their game, what can you do.)

Into this breach steps the Law Society of Second Life, founded by Frank Lardner, a fellow who describes himself on his profile as not only an afficionado of certain sex groups but a retired guy, evidently from a successful business, on the East Coast.

The Law Society of Second Life is a highly troublesome organization on many fronts. Start with the fact that it has only one officer, Frank Lardner. I've come to understand, over the months in SL, that organizations that have only one officer -- one person who can expel members, one person who can invite other officers, one person who can change the charter and perform other officer functions -- can become very unaccountable and authoritarian.

Of course, anybody can do anything they want in SL; that's its charm. But people taking on functions like promoting law in Second Life can expect a special public scrutiny and more demands than others for being accountable.

It's noteworthy that this group, which once had respected RL lawyers Jake Reitveld and katywiki Moonflowers, has lost those RL lawyer members. Other than Frank, who one assumes is or was a RL attorney, there is only one other law-related professional, Justice Soothsayer, a law professor.

I've objected to the choice of Frank -- supported by two very active members, Traxx Hathor and Ferren Xia -- to embark on "case studies" of only selected communities that help skew the very concept of law itself and which impugn the classic notion of "rule of law" by substitution of the "rule-by-law" socialist norm or the arbitrary rule of one or a group of authoritarian leaders such as the Gors.

I've long had a critique of Traxx Hathor, as many know, and for many reasons. My public critique, however, is mainly focused on something I view as symptomatic of virtual worlds, and a grave danger to the freedom of Second Life:  the takeover of tools, groups, influential platforms, etc. by people who do not believe in the rule of law as something higher than themselves, who believe by dint of their own superior intellect or technological skill that they have an ordained right to rule others, and who have no inner moral compass of any sort to guide them by any universal standards, whether drawn from the world's greatest religions, drawn from real-life classic models, or drawn from any modern notion of a democratically and liberally drafted set of norms and laws accountable, impartial, and transparent in development and practice. The first thing that people who wish to overthrow the rule of law higher than themselves do is to claim that such a "rule of law" is itself suspect, owned and operated only by the powerful, the evil, the greedy, the rich -- the suspect. The throw up hysterical cartoon-like images of "some guy on a sim lording it over everybody" or "authoritarian personalities running rampant over the sims" to get everybody salivating and knee-jerking, and then, of course, following their own suspect leadership. Of course, that overlooks that whatever the abuses of the rule of law are by the powerful, that doesn't negate the value of a rule of law higher than all of us, a greater power to which we can be answerable.

One of the first thing such groups do is try to operate in secret -- secret groups not on the forums or listed in the groups list, access-only secret or hidden sims, secret societies, back channels, etc. -- they know the light of day would make many of the rats among them scuttle.

The concept of the "rule of law" in the world is weak in some societies, at some times. We can start with our own American society, where torture of foreign suspects in U.S. custody became sanctioned through a trampling of the rule of law and many other grave issues. Indeed, it is the concept of the rule of law that helps us fight our way out of this dark passage  -- it was the City Bar of New York, and conscientious Attorneys General, who began to raise troubling questions, and leak the right critical reports, to begin to bring to light the entire mess of our responsibility for torture in Iraq. Lawyers are important to fight for the rule of law; but the rule of law cannot be replaced with "rule by lawyers" nor by "rule by laws". Many authoritarian societies make use of the "rule by laws" formula, substituting a plethora of regulations, often arbitary, for something higher than themselves.

I've come to see the environment of SL as one conducive to the "fuck-you hedonist," the person who not only seeks his own pleasures, but is happy to seek them at the expense of others, and tell them "fuck you" to boot. "I can do what-the-fuck-I-want on my land" is their clarion call. They have absolutely no sense of the rights of others, of the rights of all serving as a curb even on the *other* rights of all. This concept -- that no one right should be used to overthrow the other rights -- is engraved in Article 5 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Liberties or in similar wording in Article 30 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The Article 5 notion applies to non-state actors as well as states. You cannot use your own pursuit and enjoyment of rights (say, freedom of religion) to injure the rights of others contained in the same covenant (say, the right of equality of women). Article 5 is fertile territory for a lot more promotion and work internationally in the real world; in SL, as exotic as the concept is, it could use some promotion as well.

Several slights of hand have been perpetrated by the Law Society. First, a conscious decision was made to have the group only communicate on group forums on the SL forums. That was a deliberate choice to ensure that I never posted with any criticism of the group or its choice of case studies -- case studies which drive readers away from any "rule of law" notion and drive them toward the "rule-by-laws" cases and the My Sim, My Rule sort of model in the name of "freedom" (freedom to control others with impunity and without accountability to anyone). Frank and others know full well that being permabanned, I won't be able to post, so they can look like their group is open by having me in it, but never have me post. I've repeatedly called on this group to meet inworld and discuss these issues openly and critically-- they refused, because they don't want the public challenge.

Frank Lardner, with the enthusiastic approval of just some of the awake and aware members of the group (others in it aren't following, or in fact left to make room for more groups), has selected as his case studies Neualtenberg and the Gorean communities. These reflected his own personal tastes and proclivities; that's his right, it's a game, it's a passtime, and nobody has to study anything they don't want to study. But it's of concern when these "case studies" are palmed off as a "work product" which is "peer reviewed" only by a few active -- and heavily biased -- members of the Society. It's of concern when through forums-posturing and huffing and puffing, such "case studies" are served up to the unfortunately all-to-fashion-following Lindens as "models" that they shoud use in their creation of the world.

I raised the issue of how the selection of the case studies were made. I view both of them as little better than cults, run by very strong authoritarian personalities, who, despite the trappings of elaborate rules and regulations and "democracy," do not at all represent a mainstream, "normal" model for the life of communities of peoples on sims in this world. Celebrating either of these communities in any way, by venerating them in "case studies" that are even going to be vaunted as "peer reviewed" simply seemed inappropriate -- even misleading.

As fascinating as it is for males to go study how strong males subjugate females sexually and psychologically, or how strong females subjugate males politically and philosophically, this is n't the norm of life in a world that is to have a million members. Such communities deserve tolerance in the sense that any community deserves tolerance, freedom to do as they wish in their private space, and unmolestation from those who don't think as they do, under the TOS.

They don't deserve a free ride from public criticism when they invade the public space, however, the public commons which must be kept free of sectarian ideologies of the left or right always seeking to hijack it. Then, they should be robustly criticised. So to take these groups and exult them as case studies is only fueling their claims to the public space -- illegitimate claims entirely.

Hearing no "objection!" to his one-officer-only group formation and rules, and his heavily-controlled group forums where there is only a few loyalists in an amen corner, Frank Lardner is putting up these "case studies" and merely taunting any critics that they should "make their own".

I personally don't have time for case studies; I live them in the grand experiment itself called Second Life and my demanding rentals business in it. Perhaps some day when I retire from this demanding work and my RL jobs I might consider it. I'd be eager to sustain others doing this work, but not do it myself.

Aside from all these philosophical differences with the organizational pattern and case study selection of the Society -- which I remain in only due to my own great devotion to see legal institutions, societies, and the rule of law upheld in Second Life -- there is another grave, misleading post that really deserves the most rapid of attention.

I quote it in full:

Forum Moderation Guidelines

---

Group Forum Moderator Guidelines

As moderators (for now), Traxx Hathor and Frank Lardner will responsible to maintain your forum. The following are the guidelines provided to us today by Linden Labs. We expect to follow them and will appreciate your cooperation.

While Linden Lab values freedom of expression and allows a great deal of latitude in the use of the Second Life Forums, there are certain kinds of discussions that are inappropriate in this venue and that diminish the community by their presence. The following types of threads and posts should be removed immediately when encountered in the Second Life Forums:

_ Personal attacks on the character or reputation of another Second Life Resident
_ Accusing a specific Resident or Residents of Second Life Community Standards and Terms of Service violations or real-world crimes
_ Inviting or encouraging other Residents to target a specific Resident or Residents in a manner objectionable to the targeted Resident
_ Inviting or encouraging other Residents to violate Second Life Community Standards and Terms of Service or real-world laws
_ Revealing personal or real-world information about a Resident beyond that contained in the Resident's First Life Profile
_ Using hateful or derogatory language to describe a specific Resident or Residents.
_ Linking to third-party content that violates the Second Life Community Standards and Terms of Service

If we see a problem we will endeavor to edit the forum. Should our forum consistently fail to meet Second Life's Community and Forums Standards, our group's forum may be closed.

Thank you for your cooperation with this experiment.

Frank Lardner

As I understand it, groups are allowed to moderate their own forums on their own. This seems like a reasonable concept, given that only groups read the group forums (and possibly only groups can post in them) but it seems like a slippery slope in itself unless that forums moderation can take place under the TOS and CS very explicitly -- especially given the horrid biased and tendentious nature of forums rules enforcement, all too readily visible now under the resmod system especially.

It would be one thing if Frank Lardner had put out guidelines that merely represented  a re-telling, in simpler form of the TOS and CS of Linden Lab itself. It is surely not. What he has done has subtly rewritten the rules to serve his ends (and those of a minority of other members) in a very insidious way (one would like to hope it is unconscious, but given the direction it is going in, it can only be seen as deliberate).

Linden Lab has no rule or policy, in their TOS or CS, of banning the linking to third-party sites that could be deemed to violate their TOS or CS. They routinely permit the linking to third-party sites that indeed do routinely violate their TOS or CS. One can think of www.sluniverse.com, for example that routinely publishes chat histories from SL without the consent of the parties involved, and which also allows another TOS violation, accusation of a resident of a RL crime (this happened to me on sluniverse.com, where I was maliciously accused, on the basis of mistaken identity, of a RL crime, that of plagiarism as a journalist, an offense of which I had never been accused, nor which I had ever committed (a person with a similar RL name had committed this offense).

The Herald routinely engages in writings that many would perceive as a "violation of the TOS and CS" -- indeed, this blog consciously violates the TOS as a public service on matters of public interest precisely because Linden Lab contains no clause in their TOS or CS that links to third-party sites cannot be contained. Indeed, the Herald, sluniverse.com, and I all routinely post links to our blogs in "fansites" and in other forums (I am still allowed to post in fansites).

Linden Lab has never exercised the overreach that other games exercise, i.e. World of Warcraft or the Sims on Online through Stratics, banning the linkage to sites that they view as "violating their TOS". Of course, a third-party site can't violate a TOS it hasn't signed! Of course that *is* overbroad and *is* overreach!"

So while Frank may wish to practice his own freelance sort of guidelines of what he thinks is correct on his own little group forum, he sure can't represent that as Linden policy; it is not.

Indeed, many long battles were fought by the Herald with Stratics over this issue. I remember I once was banned for 2 days off Stratics merely for having within a post about something else, some URL link to the Herald. The Herald, in turn, contained on its front page, a list of fan sites, one of which sold Sims currency (simoleons). So even unto the third generation of links, Stratics believed that they had a right to ban me for my link to the Herald, merely because the Herald had a link to another site, which in turn illegally sold the game currency.

Many civil libertarians and electronic frontier freedom-fighters work very hard to make sure these game companies don't take away freedoms outside their domain with this type of overreach. It's bad enough they take them away inside their games.

There are other troubling aspects of this "rewrite" of the TOS and COS; I invite lawyers anc close students of the Linden TOS and CS to study this. I"m going to investigate in particular this one: " Inviting or encouraging other Residents to target a specific Resident or Residents in a manner objectionable to the targeted Resident ."

This would seem to endorse some highly subjective and arbitrary notion of what anybody would find "objectionable". That means any resident gets to decide what "targeted" means and what "objectionable" means. That opens the door to numerous frivolous and specious cases. Of course, this could well be a flaw within the Lindens' own TOS writing. They have other clauses within their TOS and CS that are very subjective and discretionary in that way, which invite arbitrary abuses of power all too easily. If it's a Linden flaw, one would expect a lawyer not to replicate it in a re-write. I suspect it goes much farther though.

It's no accident that Traxx Hathor and some others in this group tout the book "Order Without Law". It's been said by at least one lawyer I know that this book is highly flawed by forgetting the previous 150 years of history that went into the establishment of such "order without law" practices as grazing of cattle. That 150 years including a lot of hangings, shootings, and cattle-rustling! Sure, it's easy to put in nice little neighbourhoody Mr. Rogers kind of practices of "order without law" AFTER justice or the strong or both have prevailed over the management of scarce resources!

I find that tekkies, socialists, hedonists, and other modern Internet lords and masters love to grab on the "order without law" concept because they figure they'll get to be the ones who establish the order, and they sure as hell don't want any law that they will view as in any way curbing their freedom.

But it's a lot of bullshit, covering up the same-old, same-old, of a few authoritarian personalities wishing to use Bolshevik-like methods of duplicity, revolutionary justice, displacement and distraction techniques, and all the old well-worn tactics of taking control of others, that start and end with the very notion of "the end justifies the means".

The "end" that is always justified by the hardline socialists, utopian tekkies, etc. is always "My Kewl Space" or "My Superior Architecture" or "My Secret Sim" that is unaccountable to any rule of law by man or machine.

In fact, the people coding the machines want to make sure that always and anywhere, they get to do what they want by their own lights, brooking no dissent. That's how you could get a handy thing like the Linden voting mechanism that does not let you vote "no". For that, I personally hold Cory Ondrejka responsible.

Not being able to vote "no" is what enables a posse like "Rock the SL Vote" -- another group with only one officer, Lasivian Leandros, who routinely comes to harangue me and drove me off at least one listserve. This group contains many of our usual suspects, ranging from Maxx Monde on down -- it is filled with tekkies who figured out what many people are asleep to (except the Goreans) that if you work up a posse of your like-minded tribe, you can go and "throw" just about any of the propositions on the "ballot" now. Of course, that's their right. Of course, in a democracy, any PACs, or interest groups, or lobbying groups, get to form and act! Hooray! But when a group is unaccountable, with only one officer, when others can't join it by any publicly-scrutinizable criteria, it's right to ask questions. If a group of residents puts up a proposal to either remove the functions of the bounce script (the aggressive security script), the posse will go and create another proposal (they can't vote no in any accountable way) and get that passed with more votes. GIven their use of the notorious back-channel the SL IRC Channel, given their technological superiority, they're likely to "rock" a lot of votes their way. Too bad for you, non-tekkie! You're fucked!

(Of course, we see a  lot of the tekkie lobby also going into big business, like Electric Sheep Company and GIGAS, and that helps us know that this isn't just about superior-minded folks who Care About the Community, they mainly care to make money for themselves and their friends but even more importantly, gain the reputational enhancement and Linden attention that goes with technological superiority.)

This is supposed to be the "Internet norm" now -- but it's a system that will, in its own way, be just as evil and accountable as the meat-world system it purports to overthrow -- representative government in democracies, where (so the theory goes) there are all these politicians and PACs bought out by big business. That is, half or more of the people in these "tribes" can just obediently follow the bidding of a few just for the sake of a sense of group membership and cohesion.  They can decide they like this or that feature of a sub-culture, join it, and never have to think for themselves.

The answer, I suppose, is to try to strengthen the voices of individual dissenters (that's where I come in, willing to take any amount of harassment and abuse to try to keep speaking up against the group-think) and to try to ensure that groups with a variety of opinions are created and sound off on the voting page with their own organized propositions and their own posses to "rock the vote".

I'm also confident that as more and more people come into the world -- we can already see from all the increasingly brave posts on the forums -- there will be people who are normal businessmen, here to make money in an engaging and fun way, lots of householders and romance-seekers, and creative people not tied up to the existing SL diva machine. These people, collectively, will exert a force of moderation on the forces we see now at the extreme right (creator-fascism in the Platform Party) or left (the tekkie wikinistas and utopians, who are often so left they're right). These extremists want to overthrow the Rule of Law, whether in the forum of TOS/CS or any kind of universal, grid-wide or metaverse Law, by constantly impugning universality itself, so that they can get away with an "end justifies the means" sort of approach.

In the name of "host my own server" and "do my own thing" and "anything goes", they will seek power over others, especially those they've gotten to most enthusiastically sign up for the "anything goes" philosophy.

In the new post-covenant configuration, if Daniel Linden and others have their way, any community will be able to override the Community Standards and set as yet unspecified "local standards". The Lindens were extremely vague about what this meant in terms of violations of their CS.

We know what the Goreans want. Magnum Serpentine made it abundantly clear. They want to rule over other people, spouting the "voluntary, with their own will" cover-all clause constantly, even in face of any actual facts of abuse (and the mere presence of so many self-help sub groups to address abuse in the BDSM community lets us know that the "voluntary" stuff just doesn't fly in significant numbers of cases.)

Magum wants to have all abuse reports coming out of lands under his domain going to the Lindens to come back to him, unopened. That is, the Lindens will let him serve as judge and jury of all his own abuse cases. A legitimate cry for help could come of someone severely griefed, and the Lindens will boomerang it back to the person in charge of the abusers, if not implicated. Sounds like Russia or worse to me! Very bad system! The Lindens blandly look on, when urgent queries are raised about this severe flaw in their concept. They want people to host their own servers and get out of their hair, full stop. They aren't thinking of their responsibility as world-creators in the slightest.

But then, these are the people who sit around like deer in the headlights and tell you in start surprise that they had *no idea* that people were going to use the idiotic circle-jerk hippie tools they made for groups *for actual businesses*. Gosh, and look, they did?

I've seen many RL situations, some of the most stark nature, where the rule of law can begin to take root by groups of people behaving "as if" there really were a rule of law. That is, if they make model constitutions, or magna charters or what-have-you, but more importantly, if they document and publicize abuses of what everyone can recognize as injustice; if they create weak rhetorical precedents at least by making courts that issue rulings even when the powers-that-be have no intention of enforcing them. That's why the original SL Superior Court was a great idea -- let them issue rulings that the community comes to see have merit and trust, and the powers-that-be will sooner or later have to take note.

We need the rule of law in Second Life. For that we need a whole complex set of factors -- lawyers, bar associations, consumer advocate groups, mediators, dispute resolution services, courts, judges, legal drafting committees -- parliaments! The rule of law usually can't happen without a government. Yet in many countries of the world, where the government is hopelessly resistant to change, and has no intention of letting citizens really rule themselves in a just manner, they can make changes and prepare for the time when they will be free to have an independent judiciary. That's why the formation of various lobbying groups, interest groups, political parties, movements, etc. are an important step toward the Rule of Law in Second Life.

There's a significant -- though small-in-number -- group of influential forums posters and tekkies and socialists with the Lindens' ear and likeminded chumminesss that believe that we don't need a Rule of Law in SL, we need My Rule on My Sim.  They think to fight against the meatworld's injustices of the Tropica's "I Rule" type of problem ("You Rule" is the slogan of Tropica), they need to overthrow law in general, universality, and create a host of particularized and subjectivized laws.

But their notions of socialist justice (which is to music as martial music is to music) and revolutionary justice and so forth are not sufficient or beneficial to the virtual world, whatever their short-term gains. More and more, people will come to see the need for larger forms of community recognition of the rule of law, and community dispute resolutions.

It's wrong for a group of Lindens and regulars on the forum to band together fiercely and declare that "selling freebies is not cool and is wrong". That's an example where they are trying to put over on us a feature of their self-interest -- the desire to distribute freebies and gain reputational enhancement and loss leders -- over the free market's interest -- the desire of newbies to find useful things "just-in-time" -- that mainly other newbies will sell to them. Tekkis, IRC back-channelers think they can come up with a social norm -- an "order without law" like "selling freebies is not cool" and put it over normal, common-sense thinkers operating with a different sense of more universal law based on the actual appearances of that law in RL where there are free markets -- selling stuff is ok.

I get a reviewer's copy of a book for free; after I write the review, I sell that free book at the Strand. Neither author nor book publisher can do a thing about it, nor would they want to. They send me free books knowing that I'll review a good portion of them and they'll get their "page hits" or sales. It's a loss-leader, part of promotion. None of my neighbours hiss at me as I walk to the Strand with my bag of free books. They happily go to the Strand and buy the Strand's marked-up resold copies of my once-free book that I got payment for. Hey, that's life in the big city. It's a very good example of how freebies in RL are given out and sold freely. The publishing company doesn't scream on forums that their business on amazon.com or at the bricks-and-mortar Barnes and Nobels have been irreparably harmed by the sale of freebies. People who scour the Reviews' Copies bins -- myself included -- for just-in-time bargains are going to buy those versions. Those who want a more pleasant shopping experience at home on the Internet or in the fancier store will pay more money. That's life.

Honestly, I can't wait til the world grows! It's already growing! It's great!

Sutherland Dam Meeting on Zoning

Doreen Elytis: ty
You: Hi Midtown come on in
Midtown Bienenstich: Hi Prokofy, in your annoncement, you didn';t state a time.
You: yes it's on the top Midtown
Midtown Bienenstich: Told ya so ¬¬
You: on the calendar and on the forums it gives the time Midtown
You: if you mean just now on the reminder, well, whatever
Midtown Bienenstich: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi :)
You: it's a regular event every week
Midtown Bienenstich: hi Gwyn
You: hi Swyn
Doreen Elytis: hi Gwyneth
You: fly upstairs everybody
Oculas Spaceball Bag whispers: Starting Gravity Manipulation, for commands list say 'help'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Am I on the "right" level...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry
You: well let's go up to the ceiling
Tom Bukowski: hey gwy!
Tom Bukowski: gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Tom :)
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, maybe I should spam the
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, hi everybody, really ;)
Midtown Bienenstich: Builders of Second Life group
You: Gwyn what's the news?
You: yes why not?
Midtown Bienenstich: and inform them of the event?
You: the more spam the merrier
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
You: well this is a regular discussion group that I hold every Friday at 6 if I can get here
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Tom Bukowski: uh
You: and we usually discuss the economy
You: and of course everything ties to the economy
Ravenglass Rentals in Patagonia $1000: Store rented for 30 days...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy, are you still part of the Linden "community roundtable" mailing list?
You: no I was booted from it in a blatant violation of law
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I sadly thought as much :(
You: well it's a longer story but I'm banned lol
You: but not from inworld meetings
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: what's on this vaunted and secret list : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Lindens are worried about the "fake events" *again*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: uh-oh
You: oh no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye.
You: the posses are coming to remove content
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Tom Bukowski: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rather, they're seeing how they can make event announcements a "paid" thingy
You: of course
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and somehow merging it with classifiedss
You: not surprising
You: oh geez
You: remove the only entry-level employment in this vicious Darwinist world
You: bleh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, not surprising, because there is no "fair" alternative that does not involve more human resources.
Cocoanut Koala: where the hell are y'all
You: bleh
Barbarra Blair: which means the camping chair people will be the only events left--
You: Coco listen to this!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Cocoa — up here
You: awful awful
Barbarra Blair: Because they are willing to chuck in the cash
Cocoanut Koala: you're competing with Fiddler on the Roof, ya know
Midtown Bienenstich: I got two people from the builder's grup
Midtown Bienenstich: Hi all, btw
Tom Bukowski: hello!
Cocoanut Koala: hiya!
Pierre Mostel: Hello.
Doreen Elytis: hi all
Cocoanut Koala: yes, midtown im
Cocoanut Koala: d me
Gabriel Nosferatu: hello.
Midtown Bienenstich: Third Incoming
Cyber Lightcloud is online
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi, hi :)
You: well I was thinking the Lindens might outsource events to Flippier and slboutique.com
Barbarra Blair: yuk
Midtown Bienenstich: no way
You: well he's started his own list of sanitized events
You: and their trend is to hand off tough jobs to big third-party sites
Lasivian Leandros: Oh, so this isn't a true "round table", it's a "Prok wants to complain" event..
Lasivian Leandros: later
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No fortuntaely it's not so bad!
Midtown Bienenstich: ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft lAsivian
Cocoanut Koala: some people are incapable of conversation, apparently (Lasivian)
Midtown Bienenstich: this is not a "Prok" event.
You: I remember Lasivian, he's the one who got me banned from the Communisty Rount Table list by harassing me on my personal email accusing me of creating filter problems in his own company's systm, when in fact the Lindens were to blame
Barbarra Blair: If events are not part of the standard Linden interface, then a lot of people won't know how to post or read the postings.
You: and when I posted that fact of his name-calling and harassment on the CT list, Pathfinder banned me for "disclosure of a convo"
You: IMagine!
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree completely Blair.
Cocoanut Koala: pure crap, that was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I understand now :)
You: just as an off-topic aside there anyway back to topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes — zoning.
Midtown Bienenstich: YAY!
You: well what you've told us is fodder for a whole other meeting
Tom Bukowski: ah, zoning
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, lol
You: but let's address what Philip said
You: in the Metaverse Messenger
You: did everyone see it or should I paste it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: has anybody understood *how* the enforcing will be done? The rest is "understandable"...
Tom Bukowski: remind us Prok - I glanced at that edition
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah please paste it, prok
You: yes yes
Barbarra Blair: please paste
Tom Bukowski: please paste - I only skimmed it and it's hard opening pdf files with sl on lol
You: well he said LL is developing new group tools
You: just a sec
Barbarra Blair: during your sec
Midtown Bienenstich: camera angles conflict :(
You: takes awhile to load up MM on pdf
Barbarra Blair: the real problem is that everything is divided up into tiny lots and sold willy nilly
You: I wish it were inworld
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, there is no planning or coordination.
Tom Bukowski: yes barbarra
Barbarra Blair: Right.
Pierre Mostel: Excuse me I have something to attend I wasnt monitoring the time.
Tom Bukowski: I've got a problem like that right next to my build right now - a teeny plot, only 7 prims, what else could it be good for?
Midtown Bienenstich: Indeed, the Mainland is barbaric in terms of scenic harmony.
You: well what it said basically is new tools enable a "covenant" to be made
You: when you buy a sim
You: or when you group land
You: but wasn't clear
You: when he said "people on a sim"
You: whether the group becomes just all those people on a sim
You: or only those who join in an assocation
You: they would have deputies who could return prims
You: this was a gradation of the officer functions that we've long asked for
Doreen Elytis: I have to go, bye all
Tom Bukowski: cu!
Midtown Bienenstich: bye
Barbarra Blair: That's fine for group owned land.
You: to avoid the problem of the officers who could sell out from under other officers land that those officers buy or tier
You: yes well the term "covenant" comes from community zoning in some states
You: at the town hall everyone started blasting me when I said this was a "buzz word"
You: it is taken from RL practice in some states in some communities
You: so it's transplating here does constitute a buzz word IMHO
You: LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worse than that... I can understand that groups get a few more extra buttons and labels here... and one will give you a Nota Bene-signed notecard with the "covenant" for the land for that group. BUT... how will it be enforced?
Barbarra Blair: exactly.
Midtown Bienenstich: Most likely integrated with the system.. just not sure how.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How?
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, maybe you can label a prim "residential"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean
Tom Bukowski: methinks it would be tricky to implement
Midtown Bienenstich: :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I humbly bow to programmers with experience...
Barbarra Blair: If group officers can just sieze builds or land, I'd imaginve that groups will become pretty unpopular quick.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but if a notecard says "you can only build 7 trees, not higher than 20 m, and all westwards of homes with less than 8 sides"
Midtown Bienenstich: it's to your left.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *how* will a computer program "enforce" that???
Barbarra Blair: Or, no purple houses or metal boxes etc.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Barbarra.
Barbarra Blair: Obviously a person will have to judge what conforms.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "A person".
Cocoanut Koala: i imagine anyone with such strict a covenant would have no one interested in their area anyway
Midtown Bienenstich: well, height limits would be easy to implement.
Cocoanut Koala: or if they did, the group would soon disband in dissarray
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah lol Cocoanut — yes, perhaps you're right :) :)
Barbarra Blair: DRAMA
Midtown Bienenstich: but, labeling a prim..
Midtown Bienenstich: sounds like hard work.
You: I often wonder if my two simple rules of don't build more than 2 storeys and be considerate of your neighbours couldn't get wider currency
Cocoanut Koala: indeed they could!
Cocoanut Koala: the rules on azure island are very general and lenient
You: I realize that everyone has a story, everyone has a 3-storey castle, I have heard them all, trust me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Prokofy — on your rentals, *you* do the rounds...
Barbarra Blair: Besides, some of us like towers.
Cocoanut Koala: well - i think that on azure islands, everybody does pretty much as they wish UNLESS someone complains
You: but those rules, and the request, not rule, not to build RIGHT SMACK on the property line helps a lot -- nothing causes anger than having a build RIGHT ON you like that
Cocoanut Koala: then the ordinance can be dragged out
Midtown Bienenstich: I've noticed that only the Azure Island and Dreamland have some type of "written" building law.
Cocoanut Koala: yes, they have that rule too in Azure Islands
Cocoanut Koala: i have lived there quite some time and have never heard of a problem of any kind
Midtown Bienenstich: All other sims that have zoning, are decided by usually at the discretion of one person.
Cocoanut Koala: people are pretty willing to live and let live within the loose rules
You: Dreamland has the most complex, with things I don't get like "no build higher than it is 1.5 times the distance from the property line etc"
Midtown Bienenstich: examples, are Slate and Boardman
You: no one obeys them and everyone bitches about them
Cocoanut Koala: no bitching in azure that i know of
Cocoanut Koala: i may have the rules on a notecard somewhere
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* although these resemble RL covenants
You: Well Midtown, if you have Barnes and Ingrid build just about everything in the sim, yoiu don't hvae to worry about zoning and codes
You: that doesn't scale tho
Midtown Bienenstich: I think the Azures are highly uniform and controlled.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Midtown Bienenstich: right .. Provoky.
Midtown Bienenstich: like I said.
Midtown Bienenstich: usually at the authority of one person.
You: I lived in Azures for awhile and I had neighbours unhappy if a house was even 16m from their house, but Adam parcelled lots with no buffers between them
Midtown Bienenstich: in this case two.. but you get the point.
Cocoanut Koala: "the basic frules for residents in this sim are:
Cocoanut Koala: -no commercial orientated builds (sic)
Cocoanut Koala: - no clubs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So... what I *think* that will happen... is that people will have a new option for "covenant abuse report"
Cocoanut Koala: 0no builds which dramantically lower framerates (either client or server)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and somehow two things might happen:
You: what I find is that people will obey rules if they are 1) simple 2) accessible 3) always available and 4) they are properly informed of them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a) group members agree on the "covenant abuse report"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) Lindens will enforce them
You: when they get mad is when they are 1) complicated 2) too long and hard to find 3) not visible 4) not always put out, or subject to arbitrary changes
Midtown Bienenstich: but, I doubt the Lindens want more "work"
Barbarra Blair: Which is what the Lindens don't want to do
Cocoanut Koala: - buildings must not be higher than the width of your plot, and 4 meter distance from property line
You: So they tell us we will get the tools to do this
Cocoanut Koala: sky building above 500 meters
You: but I am fearful of what they will do, given what they did with tools so far
Cocoanut Koala: build within good taste (no plywood box homes , crashed space ship) defined by a group officer
Midtown Bienenstich: Well, has anyone had access to the workings of Blumfield?
You: well I put that under a rule called "be considerate of your neighbours"
Cocoanut Koala: well my roomie has his space hub on there and no one has yelled
Cocoanut Koala: ok that is all . . .
Cocoanut Koala: *hushes up*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And what if you aren't, prokofy?
Justice Soothsayer: Lindens might empower the "group" to be the enforcer of convenants
Midtown Bienenstich: The entire design and group function of that sim is odd, and it was made to test zoning.
You: if someone builds a metal junk yard in a beautiful area and I have tenants complaint about that tenant, I say, "could you change that? it's bothering people"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How would that work, Justice?
You: well what I wonder about that -- will this group have th epower to return my prims on my own land or only prims on group land?
Tom Bukowski: that's sort of what happened with the whole blue note thing
Cocoanut Koala: the lindens don't have to enforce anything, if the group tools, like, can vote on a member
You: Philip made it seem that this group over-arches other individuals and groups by being a sim-wide association of sorts
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's my question, Prokofy.
Justice Soothsayer: Could be by majority vote of the group; could be that the group might delegate the power to one or more members
Barbarra Blair: WE know how well that works--"would you please remove the impeach Bush sign?"
Cocoanut Koala: then you vote him out of group, and automatically he goes off the land
You: well we know how majorities and even vocal minorities can impose horrid group-think in SL, I wonder about that
Cocoanut Koala: yes
Barbarra Blair: That is what nearly wrecked Darkwood
Cocoanut Koala: I have defined how it is being done, and how it can be done - but not commented on whether or not that is good.
You: This is why I'm not in love with groups like Beth Noveck is in love with groups.
You: No need to get excessively celebratory of groups.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. So if I understand correctly... the new group tools will have a "vote to empower member" option... someone flags a "covenant abuse report"... then you vote on a member to do something about that... this guy gets temporary God mode for returning prims
You: Law should be above groups.
Cocoanut Koala: i'm just guessing, gwyn
You: well Gwyn we don't know
Tom Bukowski: k folks, I'm sorry I gotta run, but ty for having this discussion Prok and maybe I'll try to do a follow up in a week or two - this is a really interesting and important topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes me too, Cocoanut
Tom Bukowski: cu all later!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Tom
You: pres son this blue cube here and read what Philip said in this interview
You: now I asked about this in the TH
Justice Soothsayer: we dontknow, but we certainly can propose some ideas
You: and got all kinds of New-Speak from the Lindens
Cocoanut Koala: i fear these ideas will be proposed ONTO us
You: like "we will build the tools to empower groups to effect change"
Cocoanut Koala: perhaps from democracy island
Gwyneth Llewelyn: PL: "It would also give owning communities or initial sim owners the ability to return objects, alter terrain or otherwise control the sim as needed."
You: and I was like "uh-oh"
Midtown Bienenstich: I think the Lindens are preparing something .. somethingbig.
Midtown Bienenstich: obviously zoning..
You: yes I'm going to be Fear Uncertainty Doubt incarnate on this big-time
You: : )
Cocoanut Koala: i fear that some residents are in on it, and its not us
Cocoanut Koala: I'm not normally a paranoid person
Cocoanut Koala: but I'm sort of starting to be
Midtown Bienenstich: but it's like they are determined to change the hierarchy of sl.
You: well Coco, I fear that Democracy Island is the brain trust for this brainiac thing just to be paranoid about it
Barbarra Blair: But really, those sort of tools are mostly there already.
You: and I see no evidence of Lindens CONSULTING with the people who really DO GROUPS
You: instead of those who THINK groups
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes on Estate Tools, Barbarra.
You: and make closed democacy islands
Barbarra Blair: For any landowner.
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is on the verge of revolution! :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Barbarra Blair: SL is always revolting....
You: For me, the bigger question is: what happens to land where people don't covenant, and don't go into this forced-march? Is it declared a Badlands?
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Cocoanut Koala: it ALREADY IS! Prok!
You: If so, fine, all my rentals will bei n this Badlands lol
Barbarra Blair: Most people won't do it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll skip the revolutionary thoughts for now, I'm more worried about the concept of "empowering someone" to return prims on other's land
You: yes Gwyn can that be what it means?
Barbarra Blair: Me too.
You: did you see that as what it means?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's the way I read it
Cocoanut Koala: well, but if they bought INTO that, Gwyn, and agreed to it . . .?
Barbarra Blair: That would be a real headache.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: that seems to fly against the whole "laissez Lazarus" ethic of the Lindens
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes and no Cocoanut
Barbarra Blair: Why woul I agree to taht?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suppose that a group agrees on the covenant.
You: "Lazarus-faire"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now a guy is empowered to solve an issue
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: while he has God mode, he returns prims by mistake
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "oops" he goes
You: I can't BELIEVE the Lindens are going to get into content like that, empowering people to judge and return content
You: BUT
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next the group votes again to revoke God mode
Barbarra Blair: So what if I'm in the group, but I'm not builing on group land?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and empower someone else to fix the stuff
You: they can DELEGATE groups to do that and count on their little vicious fanboyz to police for them?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: this new guy, as vengeance, bans the first offender
Barbarra Blair: anyhow, it's confusing, and seems prone to abuse
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and so on :P
You: yes
You: confusing and prone to abuse thank you
Gwyneth Llewelyn echoes Prokofy & Barbarra
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i can see that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worse
You: How far along are they on that?
An object named Object owned by Prokofy Neva gave you Philip on Zoning and Group Tools.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes Prokofy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How many people did they ask for opinions?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How thorough did they think about it?
Cocoanut Koala: and
You: his quote says "with unanimous approval"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nobody at the Community Roundtable was available to explain
Cocoanut Koala: WHO gave them opinions anyway, and they listened
Cocoanut Koala: I'm thinking we should be preemptive
You: so what happens if one of the unanimous sells out from the group to a newcomer who won't go along?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed Cocoanut. Who?
Cocoanut Koala: and give our opinions whether asked for them or not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it, Prokofy! What then?
Barbarra Blair: Or do you have to have approval to sell your land?
You: Gwyn was this zoning and tools stuff discussed on the Community list?
You: the one I'm banned from lol?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It certainly was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll re-send it to you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But mostly ignored
You: so what was said?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, no answers, prokofy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just a few questions from me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also asked Robin on email
You: well Gwyn we could ask Pathfinder or one of the more higher ups to give a theme-based communityi meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Still no answer
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
You: like they did on Blumfield
You: to discuss precisely this issue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I asked Robin for that as well :P
Midtown Bienenstich: when
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Jesse today
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear
Cocoanut Koala: what ? Blumfield was allowed to express their view?
You: well Jesse was the one telling me New-Speak
Cocoanut Koala: on their sim?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "allowed to express" yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Cocoanut Koala: but then told no
You: "we will give residents the tools to empower them to affect change"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
Cocoanut Koala: well if he said TOOLS
You: yeesh
Cocoanut Koala: that means from democracy island!
You: all this wierd better worldism stuff
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cocoanut: what Path told the Blumfielders: "it was just a marketing ploy"
You: well Coco I'd like not to be paranoid about this
Cocoanut Koala: so would I, haha
Midtown Bienenstich: marketing ploy?
You: but when Hiro tells me arrogantly on my blog that he is building "tools for democracy" that I don't nee dto be involved in, I have to worry lol
Midtown Bienenstich: what will happen to Blumfield then?
You: yes he did indeed say that Midtown
You: he said in February, they are on their own
You: it was a marketing test
You: he didn't say "ploy"
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, of course it was.
You: but obviously it was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: welllll yes Midtown — the Blumfielders can buy their land in mid-Feb, but then it'll be like "regular mainland"
You: I have the transcript
You: basically he was less than helpful
Cocoanut Koala: yes, and as a builder for Blumfield, I was very distressed that they would not allow zoning in such an obvious place
Midtown Bienenstich: I talked to a Linden about it.
You: well Pathfinder was also blathering about "we will give residents the tools to empower them to affect change"
You: and I was like
Midtown Bienenstich: That, was nothing short of a stupidity.
You: "Um, is there a tool called "llremoveLazarussign["
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Barbarra Blair: like what, a gun that demolishes neon signs or somehting?
You: what if Laz comes in there and puts up a sign?
Midtown Bienenstich: Blumfield needed a few more "test:
Barbarra Blair: could I kill glowing trees?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Personally I'm not paranoid enough, as you know, but I'm always afraid of "bad implementation" of technological thingies without proper previous discussion, and only "after-the-fact" fixes...
You: yes yes
You: so let's be practical here
You: can we a) ask the Lindens to have a community meeting just on this topic
Midtown Bienenstich: for example, do shops sell more in places that are fully residential and occupied by newbies?
You: b) make sure those with a stake in it who run communities already zoned come to it
Midtown Bienenstich: a lot and a lot.
You: c) make up a white paper on what we'd like to see in such tools so as not to be OBE'd
You: I have my paper on the 24 functions
Cocoanut Koala: OBE'd?
You: they usually ignore that
Barbarra Blair: And what is the difference between a shop and a model home, for example?
You: Over Taken By Events
You: OBE'd
You: Hi Anita
Cocoanut Koala: I agree with a, b, and c.
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, Hi
You: this blue cube here has an interview with Philip
You: in which he talks about the zoning and tools we're trying to figure out here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh Prokofy, that sounds perfect
You: so touch it and get it
Anita Langdon: Hello everyone
You: from Metaverse Messenger at www.metaversemessenger.com if you want to see the whole story
Midtown Bienenstich: we definetly have to bring this up at two hall.
You: but I put the bits about the zoning here in the box
Midtown Bienenstich: *town
Barbarra Blair: phone afk
You: well town halls are madness
You: did you see the other day?
Midtown Bienenstich: I know.
You: it was the zooiest I've seen
Midtown Bienenstich: but, they are effective.
Midtown Bienenstich: yesl, lol.
You: imagine a meeting, where Robin has to shout "Give Prokofy a turn, he has the right to speak"
Midtown Bienenstich: more like a City Hall.
You: that says it all ROFL
Cocoanut Koala: that was fun at first, then got headachy
You: yes yes City not Town
Midtown Bienenstich: I think we had, not-so-bright residents wasting time.
Midtown Bienenstich: that Anshe.
Justice Soothsayer: maybe an organized forum w speakers, then open mike
You: well these Lindens themselves are to blame for not running the speaker's box correctly
Justice Soothsayer: like a debate, followed by questions
Anita Langdon: yes I had to reread the meeting afterwards to get anything of it
Midtown Bienenstich: what a waste of Linden-time >.<
You: they let a stupid spamming tool from Thinkers -- sorry Gwyn -- run their lives
You: when they could be running it manually as humans and policing it
Cocoanut Koala: that sounds good, justice!
Midtown Bienenstich: despite the madness, people were informed.
Midtown Bienenstich: of what?/.. I dont know
You: yes I think a panel discussion works great, with 3-4 speakers
You: I have done this at Gilded Cage
You: so you have a lInden speak, then mabe a few residents
Justice Soothsayer: panel is good, but only if you allow some time for open discussion afterwords
You: then open Q and A
You: well we always do
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, organization
You: what would be the point of a panel among yourselves?
You: this isn't SLOG
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They seem to be good at managing 10-15 people in a meeting, but not 80
Cocoanut Koala: and one of us could speak with the ideas we have formulated
Cocoanut Koala: and others who may have prepared.
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, I have never seen so many people gathered anywhwre.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol, my client stopped rezzing people after 50
You: Gwyn has anyone done any papers on communities in SL? I mean short ones, not the voluminous records of Neualtenberg -- or is there a short form of Nberg?
You: and Slate?
Justice Soothsayer: Prok, i dont want to open the democracy island can-of-worms, but i've been involved in the Supreme Court build with the idea that it could be a forum for discussion of SL governance issues.
You: well I'll be sure to fight that hammer and tong Justice
Midtown Bienenstich: I am a Slate Resident
You: it has no legitimacy
Midtown Bienenstich: I have a home in Slate.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe not that I know about, prokofy.
Cocoanut Koala: justice - i am a member of democracy island, but no one has ever told me anything
Cocoanut Koala: really
You: like I said you can't just plunk down a court and declare yourself a justice and say you'll run my disputes for me
Cocoanut Koala: Are there plans there to come up withthese tools to handle group zoning?
You: Justices are usually elected or appointed in RL, not just people who chose a name out of a list
Midtown Bienenstich: and in Slate, we all get along.. but everything's done by a single person.
You: Yes let's clarify the facts here
Justice Soothsayer: never intended to do so - just building a place for the dicussions
Cocoanut Koala: ok good
Midtown Bienenstich: Indeed, we don't even "want" to have a democracy.
You: has Democracy Island been in talks, formal or informal, with the Lindens, about reforming the group tools?
Cocoanut Koala: true, midtown, that's why azure islands works
Cocoanut Koala: better put, prok
You: well um "just a place for discussion" with funding, Lindens, a closed island, etc. is a statement all itself
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would seriously like to hear an official answer on that question as well, Prokofy.
Cocoanut Koala: seconded
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope to extract it on Saturday ;)
Midtown Bienenstich: Isn't there a "Grand Opening" tommorrow?
You: Let me paste to you the official answer I got from Robin about DI
You: brb
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is, Midtown
Gwyneth Llewelyn: However
Cocoanut Koala: good, cause i can't be there for the saturday stuff
Midtown Bienenstich: Yep, see ya there Gwyn :)
Cocoanut Koala: I want to know EXACTLY what they are planning for us.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have to admit that most people involved at the Democracy Island project only know about a "fragmented" version of it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it Cocoanut
Cocoanut Koala: understood
Midtown Bienenstich: I think it's a laser weapon that will enslave us all ..
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's the LEAST we can ASK!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Midtown
Midtown Bienenstich: Project LinDAD
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What it *started* with, was simply a college semester assignment
You: first, I want to seek immunity from prosecution from Justice and other AR'ers for disclosure of a convo from a Linden
Cocoanut Koala: actually it's me - i have a new dollar bananaphone avatar I plan to send you all mad with
Midtown Bienenstich: LinDEAD
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can share the things that I was told, if you wish....
You: I want the Monica defense here first before disclosure
Cocoanut Koala: yes
You: Monica defense in place then?
Cocoanut Koala: huh?
You: for non-Americans Monica being you know, Monica Lewinsky and all that
You: who sought immunity form prosecution etc
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Midtown Bienenstich: ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, *that* Monica :)
Justice Soothsayer: i'm no prosecutor
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Midtown Bienenstich is effectively lost.
Cocoanut Koala: i'm american and i don't get the allusion, but anyway . . .
Barbarra Blair: I'm so used to being lost that it feels normal.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww lol
Midtown Bienenstich: Okay, can we talk about multi-sim sales?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway — so far, I've heard that Democracy Island is "three" different projects ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
Cocoanut Koala: brb need ice
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's a good one
Barbarra Blair: I don't see the difference with what happens already.
Barbarra Blair: The same people buy up all the auctions.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither do I, unless I'm really completely narrow-sighted
Midtown Bienenstich: nope, it's not that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and too surprised at seeing people interested in buying *40* sims at a time!
Midtown Bienenstich: it's that the Lindens announce prokects in Linden speak.
Barbarra Blair: 40 good grief.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But 10 sims at a time, yes, Anshe will like it!
You: Democracy Island is a private project to support New York Law Schools research efforts in the intersection of real life civics and virtual space as a medium. It's really their call if they want Nota Bene to be part of their project.
Midtown Bienenstich: It's gojng to be zoning!
You: ok there's the quote from Robin
Midtown Bienenstich: ..and that's all they tell us.
Barbarra Blair: But that is a private Island.
You: as part of a longer letter answering my Abuse Report on Zarf for running a high profile business as a Linden alt
Midtown Bienenstich: to make us think and have discussions.. they add something..
Midtown Bienenstich: like "covenants"
You: so DI is a "private project"
You: that can make its own "calls" as to whom they involve
You: and all that's well and good
Barbarra Blair: So can any land owner.
You: but
You: unanswered
You: is the issue of whether their theory of groups, their notions of tools, their concept of land, etc. is informing the LL process of reform
Cocoanut Koala: back
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I tell you what was *told* me about Democracy Island, two months ago?
You: these things are informal
You: ok
Barbarra Blair: go Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Cocoanut Koala: well, I am especially interested if they plan to do tools regarding zoning
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a) it's a semester assignment for NYLS students
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, perhaps I"m thinking of city zoning.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for them to think about "tools" to help along public meetings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: held my town halls
You: yes a number of the members -- but not all! -- have the last name "Democracy" as part of that school project
Midtown Bienenstich: I think LL has another plan.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: by RL town halls
Khamon Fate wonders if he's gone bonkers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was a)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Two months ago
Midtown Bienenstich: or atl least will find another use for zoning, we can't think of yet.
You: hi Khamon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There was *nothing* on Democracy Island
You: well but read the media reports
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although the sim had been around for some 6 months.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So here comes b)
You: SNOOPY who is the SL Future Salon chairman and exec dir or staff or whatever of accelerating.org
You: gushed to the media that "Everyone is buying an island now"
Midtown Bienenstich: Hi
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) since college kids simply don't have experience on running complex projects in SL anyway
You: by which he means that Beth's grant from Florida State or whatever bought them the island at non-profit rates, and they made this thing
Khamon Fate: hallo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: they (NYLS) brought "external consultants"
You: well Gwyn it's not just college tho
You: it has Hiro!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that'll be c) hehe
Cocoanut Koala: hiya khamon
Midtown Bienenstich: hmm, Tallahassee.
Khamon Fate: hey coco
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) was mostly Satchmo Prototype and his team
You: Hiro who is like Al Gore who is responsible for the "initiative for the creeation of the Internet" -- but of course we all know that a) Al didn't mean that and b) he wasn't the only one
You: so Hiro is like that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: who built some nifty things like: notecard givers
You: how does Satchmo relate to their thing?
Barbarra Blair: oh please
Gwyneth Llewelyn: According to Satchmo himself
You: notecard givers?
You: but we had that already?
You: yages ago
Gwyneth Llewelyn: he was just "contracted" to do what the college kids should have been doing all the time
Khamon Fate: hi barbarra you can never have enough Rs
You: in fact I take pride in being the first to point out that notedcard TAKER was actually the more revolutionary product
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, well, I'm being mean: "complex" notecard givers
You: you mean Satchmo's idea was to give them notecard givers???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh, like infoNet
Barbarra Blair: I guess they'll be building rotating stuff next
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nooo lol
You: oh across sims?
Cocoanut Koala: who contracted him?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: NYLS
You: lol Barbarra!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: through Jerry, I suppose
Cocoanut Koala: but - then - is he in the developer's directory?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh sure
You: BUY DEMOCRACY NOW!! EARN LINDEN $$$$$ CAMP HERE!!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Satchmo has a RL company
Gwyneth Llewelyn: just for doing SL things
You: well let's call him here?
Cocoanut Koala: notecard givers, i thought we had that already
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was a "metaphor" lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: seems I'm not so good at that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
Cocoanut Koala: metaphor for what, actually?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point is...
You: he's not online tho
You: we did
You: but I will ask him
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Satchmo told me...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Deocracy Island was something sold to a town hall in the NY state
You: and notecard TAKERS is what these people need to grasp a little better ROFL
Barbarra Blair thinks it was a hyperbole, which is her own specialty
You: hehe barbarra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Albany if I'm not mistaken names (sorry, I'm not an expert in US geography)
You: well Gwyn you're the one boosting Satchmo and Democracy on my blog, despite your rolling of eyes here
Cocoanut Koala: ok, well i dont get it, but no worries
You: so please speak in defense
Cocoanut Koala: go on
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, what thecity council was looking for...
Midtown Bienenstich wonders if it's so hard for LL to put alternate colors for chat on screen, that way.. our eyes can differentiate.
You: Albany?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: was a 3d environment
You: wait a second
You: are you confusing Tom's project?
You: Tom's park project
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that they would use to show citizens what they were planning to implement
You: is not a city hall
You: it's just a park
You: and one community board in the city of New York
You: in Queens or something
You: that has this land out by the airport
You: so he is helping to design it "using" SL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I'm pretty sure it was Democracy Island, and related to a city in the NY state
Barbarra Blair: Well, that's cool, but has nothing to do with zoning or governemtn--no new tools needed.
Justice Soothsayer: May I interject for a moment, Gweneth?
You: community boards themselves being controversial creatures in NYC
Midtown Bienenstich: you mean like a model?
You: not to be confused with city council etc
Khamon Fate: dim ark grey government buildings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a model, yes
You: hehe Khamon
Khamon Fate: why would anyone build a government building in sl
You: justice you don't ask permission to speak in a virtual world, you just speak and people scroll it
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Khamon Fate: oh my look at the time
Barbarra Blair: brb
You: you may proceed to the bench counsellor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a model, with a way for citizens to log in, and see what was going to be proposed, get notecards with info, leave suggestions, participate in meetings
Midtown Bienenstich made one ¬¬
Khamon Fate: i gotta be, see y'all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol
Justice Soothsayer: i dont want to ruin Gwenyth;s train of thought
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah well
You: bye Khamon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was Democracy Island 2 months ago
Khamon Fate is offline
Cocoanut Koala: well that sounds like it has nothing to do with us
Justice Soothsayer: but the park project is one of the things on democracy island
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We come now to c)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed it is
Cocoanut Koala: *she says, not worry8ng about interrupting her train of thought*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: While we were at b)
You: well Gwyn can you explain at what point DI morphed from this course in this B-grade law school into the center of our world here with Satchmo and Hiro and stuff lol?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I did a similar presentation in my country
Justice Soothsayer: because government requires feedback from citizens about things like park design
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to see the feedback I got
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy — that is c)
You: oh ok stay on b sorry
You: go ahead
Gwyneth Llewelyn: About which I'm utterly confused about!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I finish with b
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since when we stepped to c)
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I lost all references :(
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suddenly Hiro is there
You: at c or b?
Midtown Bienenstich: maybe a?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suddenly a replica of the US Supreme Court is there
Gwyneth Llewelyn: at c)
You: yes well Justice can tell us how that sprang full blow from the head of Zeus here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) *made sense* to me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, please, Justice.
Cherry Mason is offline
You: Justice how did you come in to this thingie?
Justice Soothsayer: Well, I;'m responsible for the Supreme Court build as it was my idea
Justice Soothsayer: I heard about Democracy Island from some of the PR
You: well Justice
Justice Soothsayer: I wanted to have a Supreme Court replica on *my* land as a place for students to discuss legal issues online
You: let me give an analogy to start the ball rolling here
Justice Soothsayer: but found it was too "expensive" in prims, land, etc. to do so myself
You: By day, I pay rent and living HUD housing
You: by night I tier a huge rentals empire LOL
You: so
You: is your thing kinda like that?
You: : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Justice Soothsayer: so I suggested that a Supreme Court build would be an interesting forum for conversations about SL governance
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
You: why did you take it off "my land"
Justice Soothsayer: I met with Ichiro Tokugawa who built the UN replica for the Thomas Barnett speech
You: is this a kinder form dictates function thing?
Justice Soothsayer: He adivsed it would never fit on my measly 4096 parcel
You: another modest fellow yes
You: I've had many a tangle with him on that subject.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
You: well no, I find that Supreme Courts need at least 8192 m2 IMHO
Justice Soothsayer: so SNOOPY offered the space on Democracy Island for i
You: third circuit courts might fit on a 4096 tho
Justice Soothsayer: *it
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
You: Vyshinsky found that 3-person Troikas could fit on the back of a train car in 3rd class.
Justice Soothsayer: its NOT an effort to impose US or any other kind of law on SL
You: well why the build then?
You: just to give it gravitas?
You: does it have no "message"?
Cocoanut Koala: what is it for?
Barbarra Blair pictures a western courthouse with a hanging judge on 1024 m2
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, may I safely assume that this has nothing to do with what Democracy Island was "planned" to be on either Phase A or Phase B?
You: Barbarra you are too hilarious tonight lol
Justice Soothsayer: certainly to provide some gravitas, a "Cool factor"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Barbarra, yes, you're inspired :)
You: well the cool factor then rules my world, dude and I get er well
You: *concerned*
You: the much ballyhooed Metaverse Superior Court just disappeared
Justice Soothsayer: at the same time, lots of folks have been talking about SL governance issues
You: they are MIA
You: I filed 2 inquiries about disputes and suits with them
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, has anyone heard Hank Ramos before?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So Justice, since you clearly joined the project on Phase c), what exactly were you told about Democracy Island?
Justice Soothsayer: and I think the folks who have been building on Democracy Island are interested in those issues as well
You: well the problem is that such high-profile, high-media saturation coverage, high-funded projects have a way of taking over, without real democratic participation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And before what, Midtown?
You: that's my concern
Justice Soothsayer: I dont believe there is a planned "c)", as it is very ad hoc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ack.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: really???
You: well SNOOPY posted about how it was " work in progress"
Barbarra Blair: The thing is, that sounds like a temporary project.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Somehow that sounds even more frightening!
Cocoanut Koala: I want to know
Justice Soothsayer: i suppose NYU is grant funded, and grants run out sometime
Cocoanut Koala: WHAT is democracy Island intending to do to us, the residents?
You: but look, Beth Noveck chairs the SOP each year, which is funded by LL, it is the most prestigious cconference in the game and cyber law business
Barbarra Blair: nothing for us.
You: you can't tell me that the people whom LL funds are somehow just one more island
Cocoanut Koala: TO us, I asked?
Barbarra Blair: I can't see that it affects me.
Justice Soothsayer: i dont believe there is any nefarious plan to do anything TO us
You: so basicalyl Justice you just networked and got yourself a scarce berth here on this demo sim
Cocoanut Koala: i didn't say it was nefarious
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe :)
You: we are just choads and feebs for not networking with the same rigour
Midtown Bienenstich: LInDEAD.
Cocoanut Koala: nonetheless, it may be imposed ON us, thus done TO us
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: Midtown what does LindDEAD mean?
Midtown Bienenstich: watch, when you all least expect it.. zap!
Midtown Bienenstich: My theory on the happenings at Democracy Island.
Justice Soothsayer: i'd like to see it used as a place for civil discussions about SL governance issues, such as the forum on zoning we talked about earlier
You: is that like: llCoOpt(var GoodIdea)
Cocoanut Koala: me too, justice
Cocoanut Koala: i just don't get that vibe
Gwyneth Llewelyn *is confused*
You: hmm Justice well when I have those discussions all the time or when others do, they just like to get the dwell traffic
You: *shrugs*
You: like I wouldn't go to give you all traffic on that to be honest
You: : )
You: seroiusly
You: it has such a profile, and is so esoteric and elite, that it has an impact
You: and it is being done not as some college class
Justice Soothsayer: seriously, the traffic issue hasnt come up at ALL in any conversations with anyone involved in the DI project
Cocoanut Koala: I get the vibe thjat it started out as a nyls kind of thing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, from a) — a student's assignment, to b) — a project to be sold to city councils to help them doing models of proposed changes in their cities, we come to c) ad-hoc projects without any purpose or plan?
You: but as something begging for pride of place here
Cocoanut Koala: but it has turned into something grander
Cocoanut Koala: that will affect all of us, without our being necessarily involved
You: Justice: try camp chairs
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Traffic will be eliminated anyway :)
You: LOl
You: oh when?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Midtown Bienenstich: she meant DI
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just Robin's suggestion
Barbarra Blair: You know, It stikes me that what is really going on here is that the Lindens are trying to make some corporate sales.
You: did you hear that for a fact?
You: please do not move from that chair Gwyn and keep dwelling up my land here
Justice Soothsayer: my point, prok, is that I don't think anyone is building anythin gon Democracy Island to generate traffic
Cocoanut Koala: i agree barbarra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe prokofy, I'll be glad to do that :)
Cocoanut Koala: i just fear that
Cocoanut Koala: it will turn into this other,
You: Justice I think you're missing the humour, nm
Cocoanut Koala: with blessings from lindens
You: Barbarra is this related to the "add a continent to my shopping cart" they are starting soon?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Barbarra Blair: Sure.
Midtown Bienenstich: lol
You: I think so too.
Cocoanut Koala: i figure that, too, but it that add a continent has to be also for Nexus
Cocoanut Koala: and similar
You: The IBM guy, the Berkman Center at Harvard, the MSN guy -- all these are SOP regulars -- they will all want sims, and 40 will be the starting point
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, come on, guys.... if Democracy island has no real "project" behind it, how can it be "something" to show off interested/potential customers??
You: \they have the budgets
Barbarra Blair: Like, say, new sims names Blockbusters and Ronald McDonald land.
Midtown Bienenstich: Well, the Lindens (like any corporation) will always seek new and profitable business oppurtunities.
You: hahahahah
You: actually I don't think so
You: it will be more like Harvardland and BenandJerryLand
You: they will be lefty and trendy and causey-y
You: to fit the Better World motif
You: not gross commercialism and tacky products
Cocoanut Koala: it will be eggy
You: what did eggy say?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But this first attempt at "Better World" shows a frightening lack of structure!
Cocoanut Koala: saying, "Ok guys, we all hate bush and we hate people who like bush
You: someone was iming me about that
Midtown Bienenstich: If this does occur.
Cocoanut Koala: he said that MEANING IT
Midtown Bienenstich: then it will be only a breathe away.
You: well Gwyn Robin's defense is that it's a private project
You: who are WE to ask it to have structure?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Prokofy
Midtown Bienenstich: for a new company releasing an alternative to SL.
You: we only work here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in my dictionary
Gwyneth Llewelyn: projects have *structure*
Cocoanut Koala: me, i was im'ing you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, what is being "sold" in Democracy island?
You: I guess I just don't like elite projects with huge media impact to skip steps and step on indigenous processes and groups here
Cocoanut Koala: well IS it a private project?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice buildings? But we have them all over the place
You: it's like the World Bank coming in and putting in a dam
Cocoanut Koala: It CANT BE! IM in it!
Barbarra Blair: Well, if General Motors or BMW invests in an island, maybe they'll fix vehicles.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cocoanut — it was, during phase a) certainly
You: first, fix the servers
You: I'd like to see something other than grey squares when I fly around
Midtown Bienenstich: first, upgrade the complete architecture.
You: yes
Midtown Bienenstich: *server
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Midtown :)
You: yes fix the whole thing then poish it
Barbarra Blair: I'd like to see something besides for sale signs.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dangerous thoughts there :)
Midtown Bienenstich: But I think I've said this before.
You: *polish it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You did, yes :)
Midtown Bienenstich: the day a tryly worthy competitive metaverse is launched.
Midtown Bienenstich: we will have Havok3 by sunset )/
Midtown Bienenstich: :/
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not under the current business model of LL, Midtown
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we're drifting off-topic
Cocoanut Koala: Ok, so about the tools for land, are we agreed to that a b and c prok said earlier?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, Cocoanut
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm definitely all in favour
Cocoanut Koala: i say we vote on that, so as to get started on it
Cocoanut Koala: somebody else write it besides me, of course , lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So far, I pressed those points on emails to Robin, and a chat with Jesse
Cocoanut Koala: hiya rocks!
Midtown Bienenstich: for what Gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I like the whitebook idea
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i could use one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, scroll back, Midtown. Prokofy suggested a three-point approach for dealing with the zoning issues.
Cocoanut Koala: what were those three points, prok?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll scroll back... Prok seems to be in IM hell... and copy & paste again
Cocoanut Koala: a. ask for a city hall meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah thank you Cocoanut
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
Cocoanut Koala: with (subhead) Justice's idea
Cocoanut Koala: of having speakers, followed by discussion
You: sorry I have customers complaining about boxes
Cocoanut Koala: point c was, a whitepaper about how we think it would work best, the tools
Midtown Bienenstich: I started the trend :{
Cocoanut Koala: and I forget what point b was
Midtown Bienenstich: lol, we are officially calling it City Hall!
Midtown Bienenstich: *:P
You: yes yes
You: City Hall not Town Hall
Midtown Bienenstich: hahaha!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prokofy Neva: b) make sure those with a stake in it who run communities already zoned come to it
Cocoanut Koala: it was good whhatever it was,lol
You: it's now officially bureaucratic and pointless LOL
Cocoanut Koala: oh yes!
Cocoanut Koala: also good
Gwyneth Llewelyn: definitely good, yes.
Cocoanut Koala: so i suggest somebody make up a notion of group tools which would work
Cocoanut Koala: and we could all see it, and sign it (or suggest changes)
Cocoanut Koala: someone who knows a lot
Cocoanut Koala: something simple, which puts power in OUR hands
Cocoanut Koala: and concurrently, that would be in preparation for,
Cocoanut Koala: ask for the City hall
Midtown Bienenstich: well, what about getting some feedback from successfully zoned sims?
Cocoanut Koala: so that "residents will have imput on
Midtown Bienenstich: like from Nexus and Adam
Cocoanut Koala: good idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree totally.
Cocoanut Koala: people hate these things coming down from above.
Cocoanut Koala: "input on what the tools will be"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: May I propose a suggestion?
Cocoanut Koala: and - let's face it - those of us here LIVE it, and we KNOW more about what works and what doesn't.
You: normally it is done with community groups, then assemblies, then parliaments
Cocoanut Koala: voting
You: I do wonder what would be the way to have democracy in this electronic soup
Cocoanut Koala: polls
You: but the Lindens want to skip all that
Cocoanut Koala: i suggested that Yumi script one, lol
You: well it would be helpful if we could VOTE NO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since Prokofy is almost a swearword that you can't even mention in Mature land these days... could be concentrate our suggestions on you, Cocoanut? :)
Cocoanut Koala: that would be everywhere
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *we
Midtown Bienenstich: oh yeah, that's right.
Cocoanut Koala: hey, i'm a swearword too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Cocoanut Koala: well IN THE GAME voting
Midtown Bienenstich: we aren't a democracy :(
Cocoanut Koala: we CAN be
Cocoanut Koala: and why shouldn't we be?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well perhaps not as bad, we all know you're Prokofy's alt, Cocoanut :)
Barbarra Blair: Naw. Democracy is just a tool for griefing.
You: Justice,honestly, your disputes thingie appears in a world where we *do not have the right or ability to vote no* -- we are WORSE OFF than the Soviet Union.
Midtown Bienenstich: I agree with Blair..
Cocoanut Koala: well maybe i'm more idealistic
Cocoanut Koala: why just have a island that pays lip service to it, and yet isn't?
Midtown Bienenstich: Remember the basic foundation for a successful democratic nation!
Cocoanut Koala: even voting, while not as good as representative democracy, is better than
Barbarra Blair: hyperbole, remember?
Midtown Bienenstich: informed citizens..
Cocoanut Koala: the lindens deciding our future based on what their friends say
Midtown Bienenstich: and intelligent.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeah.
Midtown Bienenstich: not to be rude.
Midtown Bienenstich: but the bulk of our populous are newbies taht think it's just a cool 3D game.
Cocoanut Koala: i;m not in favor of the intellegensia running a society
Cocoanut Koala: i'm in favor of the common man running it
Midtown Bienenstich: hell, I could pay $50 L for their votes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Barbarra Blair: exactly
Cocoanut Koala: well, that's a whole other complex thing, how to do it
Cocoanut Koala: for now
Cocoanut Koala: the ideas we have going for this land thing
Cocoanut Koala: a, b, and c
Cocoanut Koala: are excellent
Barbarra Blair: Look at the most popular places list--ugly goes to the top most of the time.
Midtown Bienenstich: right.
Cocoanut Koala: this is a sort of tangent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I'm more in favour of having the common man/woman having the *opportunity* to run it ;)
Midtown Bienenstich: SL is divided .
Midtown Bienenstich: People that care.
Cocoanut Koala: for apll practical purposes, we are facing this land tools thing
Midtown Bienenstich: People that don;'t
You: What's most scary about this "no vote no" stuff is that Linden tekkies and principals JUSTIFY it in the name of "guiding" residents "toward more positive proposals" -- it's Orwellian.
Cocoanut Koala: (and won't require any messy voting or anything)
Cocoanut Koala: and the structure proposed here will work well
Cocoanut Koala: so , are we all here agreed on a-c?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: yes
Cocoanut Koala: me too
Midtown Bienenstich: yep
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i propose we let prok and gyneth draft the white paper
Cocoanut Koala: anyone second that?
Justice Soothsayer: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, a) and b) are rather easy to do, and can be done individually.
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, less work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: eek lol
Midtown Bienenstich: -- for us.
Cocoanut Koala: all in favor?
You: well in fact I'd like to see just one person to put up a resolution on the voting thingie saying: "we would like the tools changed to be able to vote no on any proposal"
Cocoanut Koala: prok
Barbarra Blair: I frequnelty wonder why the Linden's don't do some social experiements before making changes--which that could be proposed.
Cocoanut Koala: i'm talking about this now, though
Cocoanut Koala: trying to get through the land tools thing.
You: well Gwyn I can send you the thing about the 24 functions in the group to toggle and the ramifications
Gwyneth Llewelyn: To be honest, I can only see how it *might* work on a very limited basis
Cocoanut Koala: i just volunteereed you for the work, hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I'd prefer to see your 24 functions, prokofy.
Cocoanut Koala: ok - well white paper doesn't have to be prepared and agreed to by us
You: Barbarra: can we be sure they don't experiment? Without us knowing"?
Cocoanut Koala: until AFTER we get the meeting going!
You: Is Lazarus an experiment?
Cocoanut Koala: and suggest landowners to be on the speakers panel
Cocoanut Koala: Prok, Adam, Nexus
Cocoanut Koala: Anshe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully not, Prok :(
Cocoanut Koala: for example:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bob from Slate?
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, Prok kills the resolution'
You: why don't you want me on the speakers' panel?
Barbarra Blair: I tend to notice when I'm being jerked around.
Cocoanut Koala: dont know him, but if he's one, yes
Cocoanut Koala: anyone who is one
Rocks Diamond: :p
Midtown Bienenstich: I know Bob.
You: oh I can't file resolutions, I'm banned from the forums, and disenfranchised as a result
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nooo lol — the "hopefully not" was "Laz being an experiment!!!"
Cocoanut Koala: who runs large plots of land
You: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Hawk Lightcloud is online
Cocoanut Koala: OK: So who is going to ask for the town hall meeting? I suggest a delegation.
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Cocoanut Koala: Perhaps Justice,
Midtown Bienenstich: What about Ingersoll?
Cocoanut Koala: Ingrid would be good as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blue Burke? :D
Midtown Bienenstich: *Ingrid.
Midtown Bienenstich: and also JUro and Barnes
Justice Soothsayer: Folks, do we even need to ask for an official "town hall meeting" - why not just have one?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hiro Queso?
Midtown Bienenstich: they don't mind Prok, lol.
Cocoanut Koala: hey - not home builders
Cocoanut Koala: LAND RUNNERS
Cocoanut Koala: OK - whoever is going to be the delegation to
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: whoever is going to be the delegation to ask for the city hall
You: Justice of course we have them without any permission
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Socialist Utopian Communistic Democratic Republic of neualtenburg? ;)
Cocoanut Koala: would also have a list of people they propose for speakers.
You: but to get Lindens to schedule them and be in them
You: you have to get them
Midtown Bienenstich: well, people trust builders.
Midtown Bienenstich: um.
You: Five Lies in Five Words!
Cocoanut Koala: Each speaker would prepare their ideas of how the land tools should work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: NOT a bunch of philosophy, or arguing.
Midtown Bienenstich: Rock just committed suicide
You: Gosh I don't trust builders Midtown!
Midtown Bienenstich: *Rocks
Rocks Diamond: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol poor Rock!
Cocoanut Koala: Who would like to be on a commi8ttee to approach the lindens with the plan for city hall meeting?
Rocks Diamond: i fell off
Midtown Bienenstich: send Prok.
Cocoanut Koala: I would volunteer to be one of those
Justice Soothsayer: i'll be glad to help
You: well IL won't be on it
You: becuase then they'll ignore it
You: it should be Worthies like Gwyn
Midtown Bienenstich: yeah!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would also put more the emphasis of "stakeholders in SL": people that pay for huge tier to build communities.
Cocoanut Koala: ok, gwyn, me, who else?
Midtown Bienenstich: go Gywn!
You: bona fide SIC members
Midtown Bienenstich: ME@!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, i don't own land :(
Midtown Bienenstich: :D
You: well could you please get people who pay tier?
Rocks Diamond: me
You: ask Anita Langdom
Midtown Bienenstich: I'm known a bit.
You: who was just here
You: I mean lots of tier
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can talk to them, sure.
Cocoanut Koala: yes exactly, gywneth - because they have the EXPERIENCE
You: she may pay more tier than me not sure
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She does?
Cocoanut Koala: *sits back and rests*
You: she runs Langdon realty
Gwyneth Llewelyn: See — I don't even know half of them, prok!
Midtown Bienenstich: I will ask Anita
Midtown Bienenstich: :( -- fine.. just cause I'm a poor basic.
Midtown Bienenstich: IN fact.
Midtown Bienenstich: I wil see if I can bring her back here.
You: she is near me in a lot of areas so I cooperate with her and buy from her sometimes
You: she's up on the new continent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Midtown Bienenstich: I invited here firstplace.
You: well she left without saying anything not sure why
You: perhaps I was ranting about something : )
Cocoanut Koala: I meant - LARGE LANDOWNERS for the PANEL OF SPEAKERS
Midtown Bienenstich: She told me she was lost on the discussion of Dmo-ISla
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
Cocoanut Koala: not for the COMMITTE TO APPROACH the LINDENS about the CITY HALL.
Midtown Bienenstich: *Demo Island
You: Coco I can be on the panel, I just didn't want to beo n the committee to APPROACH
Cocoanut Koala: right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah ok ok
Cocoanut Koala: exaactly
You: Justice, dude, you already have a huge high-profile thingie
Barbarra Blair: I wonder if Forsythia Wishbringer would have some ideas.
Cocoanut Koala: so, who would like to approach?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: justice would be good
Justice Soothsayer: be glad to
Cocoanut Koala: great!
You: maybe just stay with that?
Cocoanut Koala: gwynetth, help him on that?
Midtown Bienenstich: well, I want to be part of the team
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure
You: well but I don't want DI getting intertwined with an effort designed to COUNTERACT DI
You: sorry but there it is
Cocoanut Koala: midtown too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, I already did an ad hoc request anyway.
Cocoanut Koala: midtown could be on the request thingie
Midtown Bienenstich: Can I fetch coffee n' stufff?
You: I would like people who pay tier, organize communities, run groups
Cocoanut Koala: the more the better
You: not peeopl who TALK ABUT this and wish to do it for others without their participation
You: sorry but there it is
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: then we will leave it up to you three to plan and do yuour approach however you see fit
You: it's not about fetching coffee
Cocoanut Koala: then - the idea would be , major landowners, sellers, renters, leasers, could
Midtown Bienenstich: that's fine, it was only a joke.
Cocoanut Koala: ask to be on panel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Cocoanut :) I think yours was the only card I didn't have, hehe
Midtown Bienenstich: I am taling to Anita though.
You: you'd have to put a Lindenon the panel too
Cocoanut Koala: happy to have yours!
Cocoanut Koala: to GIVE THEIR IDEAS for the BEST GROUP TOOLS plan to handle ZONING.
Cocoanut Koala: well yes a linden, too.
Midtown Bienenstich: wait!
Midtown Bienenstich: guys, Khamon!
You: or maybe not?
Cocoanut Koala: With each panel member having a limited speak time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right — Governor Linden, who owns the most land among the Lindens, LOL
Cocoanut Koala: Linden, yes.
You: yes Khamon is good he has been in this for a long time
You: in several communities
Cocoanut Koala: Put the linden last on the speakers.
You: yes invite Governor Linden lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khamon, surely, yes!
Cocoanut Koala: people must hear that.
Cocoanut Koala: must hear from lindens
You: let's get some accountability from this guy
Barbarra Blair: gotta run--bye guyes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *girl :)
Cocoanut Koala: whichever linden is most involved with the new idea for group tools for zoning.
You: let's ask him if he plans to sell off his roadside to RL advertisers
You: bye thanks for coming!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Cocoanut — that's probably either Philip or Robin :P
Cocoanut Koala: OK, so what have we not covered?
You: well let's stay on that for a minute
You: WHICH linden?
You: Lee Linden is the Concierge
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no no
You: he deals with islands and landowners
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lee — NEVER
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: lket them decide their own linden
You: yeah I know Gwyn
Cocoanut Koala: of course.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
You: but sometimes the SOURCE of the problem should be invited into the dialogue
You: I know I know
You: : )
You: Lee rules my world : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like your mind works, prokofy :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *how
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Cocoanut Koala: We will be PROACTIVE on this one! And get something actually useful for everyone!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah well. If it has to be Lee, well...
You: well Lee is the one we have to go to and he always has some irritable condescending response
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It makes sense it's one of the concierges, with that I agree.
Midtown Bienenstich: Anita says she will first have to look at the proposal.
Cocoanut Koala: i say, do you not see that they must choose their own representative, the lindens?
Midtown Bienenstich: know what she's representing.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, ty, Midtown.
You: "That sim of yours isn't really crashing, Prokofy, you just have a poor connection at your upload stream blah blah"
You: well Robin is in charge of group tools reform
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cyn would be a better choice, but I'm not sure if she reports to Lee
Cocoanut Koala: well, hey
You: she told me something like "I'm going to be focusing on this in the next quarter"
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: they HAVE to be the ones to say, it is their workday.
You: so first I created a group called Group Tools Suck
You: just to give you some history
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Midtown Bienenstich: Um, just to know.
You: and I said "Robin, would you like to sit in on this meeting?"
You: LOL
You: well then Forseti quit
You: he had joined
Midtown Bienenstich: as of now, we have no literature on the group, right?
You: he quit because of some furry or sometbody who didn't want to be in the same group as me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-(
Cocoanut Koala: on what group?
You: and Forseti wanted to "look good" to the Lindens
You: he didn't like my group name
You: and I said, Robin already saw it, and admitted it is a fitting title
Cocoanut Koala: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry he quit, prokofy, despite your opinion, I value Forseti's opinions...
You: but it coould be called Blue PIneapples
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
You: well Forseti may have gone to form his own private group
You: so Travis Lambert and a few others and I kicked it around for awhile
Cocoanut Koala: which is another issue
You: but then we had a worse problem
You: which was telehubs and p2p
You: so we let it disband
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... of course... I'd also prefer something more sensible like "Zoning Tools Committe" ;)
You: I neede dother groups etc
Cocoanut Koala: Therefore - speed is of the essence.
Cocoanut Koala: There may be SIX such groups as this one sitting around discussing the same thing!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do you think so, Cocoanut?
Cocoanut Koala: In order that everyone may participate,
You: I wanted to start another group called sipmly Mainlanders
You: to work the Laz issue
Cocoanut Koala: and not just have it all get coopted behind closed doors.
You: and then the zoning issue too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cocoanut — are you speculating, or aware of some groups doing the same?
You: I don't want to carry water for PI owners, they have enough attention from Lee and others
Cocoanut Koala: i am speculating
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If yuo know them, I'd say, we should at least try to contact them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suggestion: grab attention on a forum post? Since it looks like they didn't come *here*
Cocoanut Koala: good idea
Cocoanut Koala: maybe a BETTER idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It has always unforeseen side-effects
Cocoanut Koala: to say that we are trying to get a city hall on the forums,
Cocoanut Koala: before we even DO
Cocoanut Koala: otherwise WE look all secretive
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A post stating the three points a b and c
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tend to agree.
Cocoanut Koala: let's you two work that up first then, before committee to approach
Justice Soothsayer: good idea to err on the side of openness
Cocoanut Koala: cause i know you're just gluttons for punishment!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I second that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and LOL
Cocoanut Koala: all in favor?
Cocoanut Koala: me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, definitely
Cocoanut Koala: anyone opposed?
Justice Soothsayer: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know what...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: post this whole conversation on the forums as well ;)
Cocoanut Koala: NOOOOOOOOOOO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahaa
Cocoanut Koala: I will sound like a paranoid!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was just a suggestion :)
Cocoanut Koala: well, i don't think we need to be that open at this point, erm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, iRL meetings have mostly "acts" or "minutes" or whatever you may call them, and not always full translations ;)
Cocoanut Koala: minutes, fine
Cocoanut Koala: me saying Democracy Island is going to bury us all, No
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Cocoanut Koala: lololololololol
Justice Soothsayer: strike that from the minutes
Cocoanut Koala: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: right :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn is secretely hiding a Linden Broadcast thingy and this meeting is being echoed on the WA
Cocoanut Koala: oh well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don't worry, they hardly speak English there :)
Cocoanut Koala: i have found in my longish life
Cocoanut Koala: that generally, if there is something I'm concerned about, or have a question about, so do many others
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope you're right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: because, hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: after that community roundtable
Cocoanut Koala: because hmmm . . . what?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tossed a few ideas around
Gwyneth Llewelyn: with closer friends
Cocoanut Koala: yes me as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and there wasn't much feedback really
Cocoanut Koala: this was a preparatory thing, not on the record
Gwyneth Llewelyn: except for "oh, if they're zoning communities, I'll be out of the zoned sims"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, something similar to "not in my backyard"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and "I'm out of the loop on that"
You: I'd like to post it on my blog
Cocoanut Koala: well, there is much, much desire for zoning, i know that
You: because I don't think there's anything secret really
Cocoanut Koala: not everyone
You: but you decide
You: the reality is people don't have time to plow through long transcripts
You: so what's the final action plan?
Cocoanut Koala: which means - only those who want to hang me will bother!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, a "condensed" version might be more effective.
You: Also Justice, could you let us know whether you are in this meeting in your personal capacity or representing DI and on a reconaissance mission?
Cocoanut Koala: oh he's not reconaissancing
You: also for extra credit, let us know if you are a RL judge or lawyer -- but that's optional : )
Justice Soothsayer: only personal capacity
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
You: it's ok to reconniassance
Justice Soothsayer: Always willing to go for the extra credit, prok. I teach law in RL.
Cocoanut Koala: yeah but he isn't
Midtown Bienenstich: Will there be a meeting with participating owners soon?
Cocoanut Koala: Really!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh wow :)
You: OK
You: excuse me
Midtown Bienenstich: To draft out the plan, etc?
Cocoanut Koala: what is your stance on the lazarus thing, then?
Cocoanut Koala: no
You: but is this a "those who can't do teach" kind of thing? I apologize in advance for the rudeness, but you didn't answer the question
Cocoanut Koala: you have misunderstood what i meant, midtown
You: teach does that mean "admitted to the bar"?
Cocoanut Koala: i meant - each major landowner gets to present his OWN ideas and plan on the panel.
Cocoanut Koala: "We" would be one of those groups.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cocoanut Koala: Adam and Nexus, might be another.
Cocoanut Koala: and so forth.
Midtown Bienenstich: Oh
Midtown Bienenstich: completely missed hat.
Midtown Bienenstich: *that
Cocoanut Koala: we just happen to be all groupy here cause ... well . . .cause why i;m not sure
Justice Soothsayer: I am admitted to the bar in DC, Ohio, and many federal courts, including the RL US upreme court.
You: OK,k so you have RL credentials
Cocoanut Koala: The idea is, with all the input from the various landowners
You: but do you have any idea of this world? of its people? of its issues?
Cocoanut Koala: better plans for group tools for zoning would emerge.
Gwyneth Llewelyn is slightly in awe now :)
Midtown Bienenstich: Yes, Cocoa.
Midtown Bienenstich: but..
You: do you have any notion what it means to just impose some model on indigenous peoples?
Justice Soothsayer: only what i've seen in the last few months
Midtown Bienenstich: we need some type of coordination effort.
Justice Soothsayer: and of course from reading your blog, prok
Cocoanut Koala: well,
Midtown Bienenstich: at least to get it started.
Cocoanut Koala: thats what you are in on, midtown.
Cocoanut Koala: First,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe indeed
You: If you are a RL judge and lawyer, you know that the justice branch exists in a country government context of 3 branches
Cocoanut Koala: the idea gets oposted on the forums.
You: you don't just have the Supreme Court plunked down on the tabula resa of the State of Ohio with no context
Cocoanut Koala: Second, you are on the committee with gwyn to put forth the idea to the lindens
Cocoanut Koala: for this city hall, with these panelists.
Midtown Bienenstich: Oh.. I just mislead poor Anita.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I briefly ask both Midtown and Justice how your schedule on Sunday is?
Cocoanut Koala: plus hopefully some on forums would like the city hall idea, too.
You: Gwyn please don't be in awe of people with RL credentials.
Cocoanut Koala: the panelists would be major landowners, they would speak, then everyone could discuss.
Midtown Bienenstich: Avaiaalbe.
You: People can have virtual credentials too.
Justice Soothsayer: i'd have some time on sunday, gwyn
Midtown Bienenstich: I have a laptop, in case I'm mobile.
You: That is what Second Life is all about.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And you're right, Prokofy.
Justice Soothsayer: and i'll second prok on the credentials thing - he's absolutely right
Ravenglass Rentals in Erie $100: Store rented for 7 days...
Cocoanut Koala: well i'm not in AWE of his credentials whatsoever - have too many of my own *strut*
You: Then Justice if you are all those things, then you'd know how absurd it is
You: to put the US Supreme Court
Cocoanut Koala: but its good he has this background, and these skills
You: on the job of handling a builders' dispute in Columbus, OH
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure :)
You: context is all here
You: you seem to act like there is a tabula resa here for you to experiment on
You: and there is on your island
You: but not on my island, if you follow me
Justice Soothsayer: context can also be informed by RL
Cocoanut Koala: justice, you are kinda new
You: well you aren't just some island
Justice Soothsayer: there;s a lot of RL experience with zoning, condo assns, etc
Cocoanut Koala: did you come here because of D.I., or were yuou already here, or would you be here at some point anyway?
You: you are in a world of a mainland and an island
You: yes but what good does that do?
You: when here it is ALL HOUSTOn ALL THE TIME
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Justice was here before DI...
Cocoanut Koala: it will help though
You: ALL HOUSTIN ALL THE TIME
You: try to grasp what that means
You: NO ZONING
Justice Soothsayer: it can provide some models that can be adapted for use here
Cocoanut Koala: he can translate it, prok
You: and utter insantiy
You: no I disagree
You: you have to first look at the exigencies of this virtual world
Cocoanut Koala: and we can help influence him to translate it the way we want him to! ;)
You: and see the real issues here
You: the authentic real issues of the virtual world
Cocoanut Koala: well, we can tell him those issues, see
You: and they are not about what somebody did in Columbus
Cocoanut Koala: that's why he's here - to listen
You: Coco, he's here to listen with a funded project and tier he doesn't pay
Cocoanut Koala: i know
You: it has no legitimaacy for me prima facae
Cocoanut Koala: doesn't matter
You: he can talk like anyone
Cocoanut Koala: well no, doesn't have to, for it to be useful
You: but he is not someone trying to cope with the real issues
Cocoanut Koala: for him to be a useful citizen
Cocoanut Koala: he WILL
You: and I resent people like that formulating policy and tools FOR me without me
Cocoanut Koala: he IS a resident!
Justice Soothsayer: prok, i have an impeach bush sign in my back yard too
Cocoanut Koala: well, that's why we have this whole plan going here
You: yes but you aren't doing anything about it
You: I am
You: you are merely proposing theories that the Lindens may or may not crib
Cocoanut Koala: now
Cocoanut Koala: that's not quite fair, is it?
Justice Soothsayer: not true - i just signed up for committee to have a town hall about it
You: Coco it is
You: because these issues are an abstract salon topic for Future Salon
You: for pepole like Justice
Cocoanut Koala: What is our goal?
You: it's a hobby
You: for me it is not a hobby
Cocoanut Koala: It is to have control, or at least input in, this process.
You: Coco
Cocoanut Koala: If he can help us with that, that is as good as if i can help us with that.
You: you are already lending legitimacy to this idiocy
You: it has none
You: absolutely non
Cocoanut Koala: (I just like arguing with Prok)
You: it's a school project
Cocoanut Koala: no - i think it is a bunch of egghead pie in the sky
You: by some grade-B law school professor at that
Cocoanut Koala: but it IS going to affect us, if we don't deal with it!
You: Justice would be able to explain that
Cocoanut Koala: I figure Justice can see that.
You: why should I be bowing and genuflecting to that?
Cocoanut Koala: i'm not bowing!
You: RL credentials are immaterial
Cocoanut Koala: or genuflecting!
Cocoanut Koala: i'm INCLUDING>
You: Coco, it's not about including in a discussion
You: it's about legitimizing this Democracy Island
You: which I refuse to do
Cocoanut Koala: i'm the last to bow and genefulect to a bunch of university people coming in to tell us what to do
You: it has no legitimacy
Cocoanut Koala: well
You: it was not elected or apointed
Justice Soothsayer scrolls up, and sees that Prok was the one who raised the question of credentials first
Cocoanut Koala: but can't we consider justice as a person of his own?
Cocoanut Koala: not SOLELY defined by D.I.?
You: I asked about credentials to see if you were going to wave them around
You: and I see you are
Justice Soothsayer: only when asked, prok
You: you did the same on my blog Judge
You: you tried to make some technical correction
Midtown Bienenstich: I have to go now.
Cocoanut Koala: i have no intention of letting us be coopted by D.I. people, or our interests
You: without grasping the larger issue of legitimacy
Midtown Bienenstich: but it's been awesome talking with you all.
You: how can you plunk down a Supreme Court, with no government?
You: no elections?
Cocoanut Koala: see yo ulater midtown!
You: no parliament?
You: you think it's ok to have a pretty building to be a Hollywood stage?
Midtown Bienenstich: Cocoa, Gwyn, I'm still partially confused on my duties.
Justice Soothsayer: Its a 3D replica, not an institution
You: then I agree with Barbarra
You: put it on a 1024
You: make it a Western with a hanging judge
Cocoanut Koala: gwyn will get with you on sunday, i think
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I will, yes.
Midtown Bienenstich: great.
Midtown Bienenstich: laterz, all!
You: My 3-D world wants to have institutions, not hobbies for you.
You: That's where we differ.
Justice Soothsayer: indeed
You: I want real courts with real decisions.
Cocoanut Koala: well, we are the branch that's real
You: Not toys.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll try to get back to you both (Justice & Midtown)
Justice Soothsayer: thanks, gwyn
You: So far what we've seen is 2 college kids making a term paper toy
You: that evaporated
Cocoanut Koala: well this is a slam dunk
You: and we've seen Zarf become a Linden
Cocoanut Koala: the residents are not going to allow this group of college people make our world
You: that's where we are on the local justice issue
You: well I think conflicting notions of the world are at stake here
You: Justice and Beth and Snoopy think this is just a tool
Cocoanut Koala: i agree
You: a platform to do stuff with
Justice Soothsayer: or whether it is inedeed a world
You: it's all blank for them
You: but it's not blank for me
Cocoanut Koala: but - by sitting in with us, he LEARNS it is real
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, I'm not disagreeing with Prokofy ;) It just seems to me that D.I.'s "current project" is, to be kind, "nebulous" right now. I thought Phase c) was much more planned.
You: I already have tools and I already practice governance.
You: as do thousands of other people here
Cocoanut Koala: hence why we have all this plan.
You: it's already colonized
You: it's not the moon
Justice Soothsayer: your'e right, gwyn
Cocoanut Koala: i think justice has met some of the inhabitants, lol
Cocoanut Koala: he has met the enemy, and they is us!
Cocoanut Koala: kik
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
You: well here's one inhabitant that will give the college stuff a run for its money
Cocoanut Koala: me too
You: I don't get a cut-rate non-profit sim to run my hardknocks governanc e project
You: I work my fucking ass off
You: and I PAY to do it
Cocoanut Koala: right
Cocoanut Koala: and it is not a college/non college thing anyway
You: It is Coco
Justice Soothsayer: its been a very interesting discussion, but its getting late
Cocoanut Koala: i got academic credentials out the kazoo (almost)
You: a college has this project funded by another college
You: with college kids and professors
Cocoanut Koala: i know
Cocoanut Koala: nice meeting you justice!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, Prokofy, I'm a bit confused if that's what Democracy Island really *is* about. I hope to find out some more on it tomorrow.
Justice Soothsayer: thanks again for an interesting and provocative conversation
You: Gwyn I think I get it more now
You: it's people who think they can run something
Cocoanut Koala: see you later justice!
You: and who won't listen to the concept of "nothing about us /without us"
You: they think there is no "us" to worry about
Justice Soothsayer: good night, all
Cocoanut Koala: they will learn there is
Cocoanut Koala: night!
You: Hardly
Cocoanut Koala: they will
Cocoanut Koala: and rue the day, too
You: Coco, people with RL credentials will wave them
Cocoanut Koala: THEN I WILL WAVE MINE!
Rocks Diamond: coco look at me
You: and say why should I, admitted to the bar in the District of Columbia, listen to some blowhard in here?
Cocoanut Koala: i see you, you are quite frenetic and have been for some time
You: they are trolls and griefers
You: lock them up
Cocoanut Koala: They will, they have to
Cocoanut Koala: we are a democracy, whether anyone wants to admit it or not
Rocks Diamond: Who are trolls and griefers?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "we"?
You: Well my RL credentials include having to fight people like this in RL of course LOL
You: so they don't scare me
Cocoanut Koala: yes, we, all of us
Cocoanut Koala: it won't do for the lindens to pretend we aren't
You: but honestly, the whole DI thing is elitist, and it's happenstance
You: it's whoever networked
Cocoanut Koala: that's the source of all their troubles
You: whoever knows so-and-so
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh
Cocoanut Koala: yes it is, but it is HERE
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
You: well Coco why give it legitimacy?
Cocoanut Koala: ok maybe some of us are socialists
Gwyneth Llewelyn: How is Second Life a "democracy"?
You: see I was asked to come and speak at it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Cocoanut Koala: because they hold the cards, prok
You: imagine!
You: I was originally asked to be on the panel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's true.
You: I talked to SNOOPY for two hours
You: he asked me to speak on the subject of Aimee's parties matrix
You: and I said HELL NO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So they invited Gwyn instead.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
You: he wanted to fit me in like a Christmas tree decoration on his tree that was already up
Cocoanut Koala: and we have a plan going
You: he wanted me to identify the other people
Cocoanut Koala: you keep saying legitimacy BUT
Cocoanut Koala: you also can't pretend they don't exist
Cocoanut Koala: and might not possibly do harm therefore.
You: and I said no we have to have a larger topic
Cocoanut Koala: i agree with your call on that, prok
You: which is "groups in SL and how they lobby and press their interests"
Rocks Diamond: /timer 60
You: then I came back to him the next day
You: so I said NO I won't speak
Cocoanut Koala: reasonable
You: and said I will speak if you can ditch that Aimee topic
You: and he wouldn't
Cocoanut Koala: course not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh!
You: but to avoid controversy
You: he invited Gwyn
You: and changed thetopic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is something you didn't tell us about....
You: so he could then say it wasn't that he didn't disinvite me
You: it's just that he "changed the topic to be more positive"
You: "to keep the momentum going"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, completely, he replaced the interesting social aspects with techie wikki stuff.
You: and made it "Sl and the Web Today"
Cocoanut Koala: buncha crap
You: well it's derailed
You: and not a single topic all day long tomorrow
Cocoanut Koala: really?
Cocoanut Koala: gwyn
You: deals with THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE AND WORK HERE AND ALREADY DO THE FUCKING DEMOCRACY WITHOUT THEM
You: see I can't have them step on that
Cocoanut Koala: what is it about what i said about we are a democracy that you were commenting on?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
infoNet R4 Blueberry: Clearing Cache.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, sadly, i don't think that SL is a democracy. It has the *potential* of becoming one.
You: I have to relate my RL experience here.
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: People are so "afraid" of having a "legal system"
You: When the Soviet Union first fell, there were thousands of $500/day consultants
Cocoanut Koala: well what i meant, democracy can't be stifled, and is already here, in the hearts of reasoning people, which is most everybody.
You: they came on the scene with no language, no credentials nothing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or basic things like "Bills of rights"
Cocoanut Koala: we just do it in different form, like these city halls.
You: and all of us who worked it 20 years before that for $20/day or whatever were not as glamorous
You: so those $500/day people would call us up
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, in the heart — I agree, it's in the hart of *many*
You: where we still earned $20/day
You: and they would then get paid $500/day to crib our comments without our knowledge
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But sadly, not always in the heart of the few that have these "pressure groups".
You: they would parachute in and not even be able to talk to the locals
Cocoanut Koala: i agree, it is maddening prok, but you gotta see past that
You: and would write the Kyrgyz Constitution with no Kyrgyz present, etc
You: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: you ascribe too much good will to these people
Cocoanut Koala: no i dont
You: Justice Soothsayer may be sincere
You: but the rest like Hiro are not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I've heard that rumour elsewhere, Prok, but I never gave it any credit until you told that story :-(
Cocoanut Koala: i realize that
You: and Beth Noveck's theories are scary
You: go read them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's frightening.
Cocoanut Koala: i agree
Cocoanut Koala: but, i am saying, we are STRONGER than they are
You: what rumour?
Cocoanut Koala: all we have to do
You: what do you mean?
You: you lost me
Cocoanut Koala: is put into place a, b, and c, like yousaid
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Creating a constitution without the Kyrgyz present...
Ravenglass Rentals in Grace $325: Store rented for 30 days...
Cocoanut Koala: thats why it wont work!
Cocoanut Koala: thats why we win!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I read that somewhere, on an obscure reference
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
Cocoanut Koala: thats why thismeeting!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it won't
Cocoanut Koala: we are getting good at these things
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like your optimism, hehe
Cocoanut Koala: I already preempted the "cutting stipends" thingie with a poll
Gwyneth Llewelyn: At the very least
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
Cocoanut Koala: well, i have my down moments too, like prok, he can tell you
Cocoanut Koala: the roles have been reversed
Cocoanut Koala: usually its after i have taken a beating on the forums, lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, at the very least, the ones still thinking about "utopia" will think twice when LL starts to announce all the changes
Cocoanut Koala: but im gettng better at that!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I expect that perhaps a few thousands will leave
You: well the Kyrgyz thing I cite as a kind of generic example
Gwyneth Llewelyn: unable to deal with the concept that There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Cocoanut Koala: which changes?
Cocoanut Koala: oh that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good riddance to them!
Cocoanut Koala: of course
You: I had my part in the Russian Constitution -- many hands were put on that
You: many many many
Cocoanut Koala: I myself believe there MUST be a free lunch
Cocoanut Koala: in a virtual place, in a game
Gwyneth Llewelyn: really, prok? That you didn't told me yet :)
You: but in the end they just deleted what they didn't like and all that expensive foreign help was the first to go
You: ewll I can tell you the story some day
Gwyneth Llewelyn: right
You: but it's more about how they don't keep that kind of foreign liberal stuff in the end anyway
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Cocoanut... so there is a free lunch? ;)
You: it has to be indigenous and come from their own specialists and their own process
Cocoanut Koala: there needs to be, yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
You: you can't just graft the First Amendment into another country
You: well we worked on a part that had to do with rules for declaring a state of emergency
You: which they did keep
You: but then they used that to wage war in October 2003
Gwyneth Llewelyn: !
You: so beware of foreign things that look good but in another context they are misused
You: context is all
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
You: that's why plunking down the US Supreme Court in an international game space horrifies me
You: it just makes me cringe
Cocoanut Koala: well i'll be damned if i let those D.I. people define my world for me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh
You: especialy withe fight we just had to keep Gomez from being apointed etc
You: well Coco
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless the presentation tomorrow is going to be *very different*
You: you are conferring legitimacy on them
Cocoanut Koala: that is my style
You: well Gwyn read their hype
You: they are having a country fair
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Justice was saying is that at this stage, D.I. is just... "vapurware"
You: a country fair!
You: what could be more sweet and American!
Cocoanut Koala: i confer legitimacy on 99.5% of people
You: a country fair!
Cocoanut Koala: well at least that seems harmless!
You: with "room for trade associations, civic groups, experts"
You: I find the "trade association" thing touching
You: like the Ladies Undergarments Amalgamated Union will come to call
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are none that really have a saying in SL...
You: "We don't like the group tools"
Cocoanut Koala: well i wish bob bunderfield's builders association (see my title) would do something useful
You: and then we will look at this smorgasbord and say ooh, that's shiny
You: Gwyn
You: have you ever noticed?
You: on the forums
You: the group forums
You: none of the groups are active
You: except Nberg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
Cocoanut Koala: i've noticed that too
You: because lefty socialists are always zealous
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite so.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol
You: but like Lesbians United or whatever is defunct
Gwyneth Llewelyn: One day, Prokofy, you'll use N'burg as an example
You: oh but it's a loathsome one
You: see that's how Bolsheviks win
Gwyneth Llewelyn: on how even in SL the Lefty Utopians tried to build something
You: by being active when others aren't
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and utterly failed ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ulrika hardly logs in
You: well but Satchmo says
You: let me get it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Kendra is stepping down
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no more lefties
You: what?????
Cocoanut Koala: she is?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well from her current authoritarian role, yes
Cocoanut Koala: why?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She'll be a "normal builder"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why? Cocoanut, it should be obvious.
You: Neualtenburg has the metaverse's only elected representitive government.
You: of course spelling included
Cocoanut Koala: well it isnt to me, so why?
You: why is Kendra stepping down? she had enough lol?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: When lefties fail to understand that the rest of the people are not so eager to go ahead with their theories...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that people start to become, uh, just regular, moderate capitalists
You: wow did Teh Ppl prevail out in the Socialist Bavarian Horror???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the lefties abandon the ship
You: wow
Cocoanut Koala: really
Gwyneth Llewelyn: because they feel it's sinking
You: well that's how it should work in RL
Cocoanut Koala: how interesting
You: that's good news!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in fact it's making a profit
Cocoanut Koala: maybe it will become something better
You: so who are TehPpl now?
Cocoanut Koala: than it was
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since Ulrika stepped down ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
You: who is the advance guard of Teh Ppl?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, the people are just regular guys, Prokofy
Cocoanut Koala: well i need to go get a bit of work done, i[m on a deadline
Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is not really an "advanced guard"
You: "We, Teh Ppl, In order to form a more perfect Better World" etc
Cocoanut Koala: i've been playing hookey just to be here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nah
You: well I will watch with interest
Cocoanut Koala: i will see y'all later!
You: poor Kendra
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's more like "we have to stop this nonsense of not having enough shops" :)
You: thanks for coming Coco
Cocoanut Koala: if . . . i can tear myself away
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nah, Kendra enjoys building as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so she'll stay for a long while
Cocoanut Koala: ulrika doesn't play much anymore?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
Cocoanut Koala: hmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the last 6 months
Gwyneth Llewelyn: she was twice online
Cocoanut Koala: that may explain why she is getting reckless on the forums
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for a total of one hour
Cocoanut Koala: there is the new baby
Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes
You: Ulrika is a bit behind the curve I noticed yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But she has been a mother for half a year now ;)
Cocoanut Koala: well still
Cocoanut Koala: a baby can kind of squash your prior enthusiams, for a long time
Cocoanut Koala: like say A WHOLE FREAKIN LIFETIME
Cocoanut Koala: dang kids
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well of course it can, Cocoanut :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I expect that when she returns
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She'll see that her nice dream has gone completely bypassed
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Cocoanut Koala: well she has probably been in touch with kendra and whatnot and already knows its happening
You: hmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or perhaps N'burg doesn't grow fast enough and it also fails, It's possible
You: but Gwyn!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure, she reads the forums
You: "Neualtenburg has the metaverse's only elected representitive government."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: she knows what people think
Cocoanut Koala: i can't say i cry over peopl drifting away who have wished for my virtual death
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yeah, right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's again a pretty hyperbole.
You: well Kendra wants to eliminate me from the game
Cocoanut Koala: thats a pure d FACT.
You: she's always writing that LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, prokofy, that's true.
You: why?
Cocoanut Koala: oh that one
Cocoanut Koala: representative government
You: can't she just ignore me?
Cocoanut Koala: thought you meant people wishing my virtual death, lol
Cocoanut Koala: ok, i'm off!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't know, but I can only guess that she doesn't like the way you write :)
You: Rocks do not event grief or you will be gone hon
Cocoanut Koala: *i'm very disciplined you know*
You: stop bombing my club
Rocks Diamond: im not griefing
Cocoanut Koala: see you later!
You: well why does she read the blog then?
Rocks Diamond: the onyl person i am griefing, if anyone, is myself
You: is it like a traffic accident? can't help rubbernecking?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh I can only speculate, Prok
You: too true Rocks too true
You: but you are bombing up my view with stuff
You: so light somewhere already
Rocks Diamond: sorry i am trying to cage myself
Rocks Diamond: dont be a prude now
Rocks Diamond: so true.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I really do wonder why so many people post hateful comments on your blog. I mean, why bother??
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should be going now
You: I guess because they can?
You: and I get under their skin?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This was a most productive meeting, I think
You: well we have heard from Justice Soothsayer
You: my, what a name!
You: gosh
You: it's like Dear Leader, my alt, who is a member of DI now : )
You: modest, so modest!
You: ok well Dear will see you there tomorrow afternoon perhaps
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well prokofy — I can't really understand that "masochist" behaviour, but perhaps yes, they like to annoy you, and get annoyed in return. Who knows what's their kick?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
You: after my chores lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Dear LEader", wow
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
SNOOPYbrown Zamboni is offline
You: my mashocist or theirs?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Theirs, prokofy
You: I like to save Dear for Democracy occasions
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're just answering
Vivianne Draper is online
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol :)
You: ok well back to work
You: thanks for coming
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok... bye for now, I must really go
You: and agreeing to be on the Delivery Committee or whatever
You: go to it
You: see you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: my pleasure, since I would be annoying the Lindens with emails anyway!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye for now....
You: bye

The Group Tools

The group tools need to be fixed, and the Lindens are fixing them.

Be careful what you wish for, you might get what you want.

What are the Lindens doing to the group tools? We really have no idea. Philip Linden has made one set of statements on Metaverse Messenger -- Robin Linden and Jesse Linden have made some vague follow-up in the community round-table-turned-city-hall that has become the former small-group sessions overtaking even the old town-hall format (which is why Midtown Bienenstich started to call it "city hall").

When the world reaches a size and complexity where people begin to talk about "city hall" instead of "town hall" you need to fix the group tools. The Groups Are the Government. And the Group Tools Are the Governance.

What would be ideal for the group tools?

My concept of 24 togglable functions. Rather than focus on the nature of the group, or merely enhance the old tools, or privilege one type of group over another, or one type of social system over another, my system would make a set of customizable, configurable tools that enable any founder to create any type of group, up to and including one that would remove him, himself -- or enable him to rule with an iron fist.

Many, including the fellow who nominated me for "best thread of 2005" for my post "The Groups Are the Government," didn't like my preamble explaining how existing tools are socialist, and we need to make them capitalist.

But in fact, this age old struggle between individualism and collectivism, between profit and creation of wealth and distributive justice, between the Western corporate structure of a CEO and his board of directors and the Asian structure of a General Secretary and a Politburo, between groups working with a responsible manager and the rule of law in by-laws and groups working under dictatorships of either a strong-man or an aggressively-obedient group enforcing group-think. So you can't side-step these largely social-structure issues. And I think in the SL context, it's only fair for capitalists to say they'll allow socialism (they're the liberals, after all) in order to isolate and marginalize those few socialists who keep going on about how we need to remove "evil capitalism".

Equating investors and managers with evil capitalists and evil dictators is exactly what's going on again, however, in the name of not only socialism but "freedom from dictatorship," and it means the simple problem of tools that might very well separate a man from his investment, labour, and wealth are still being cooked up at the Lab out in California.

How to respond?

First, get the facts. We have none. We have the vaguest of impressions, anecdotes, and anxious discussion. I just wrote to Philip in the evening and said, "Please come inworld and have an informal talk in Dore when you're free to anyone who can show up to just explain the bare facts of your covenant and zoning notions." I told him a letter would be coming soon from residents asking for a town hall.

Friday night, when a group of us interested in zoning -- those who came to a publicly-announced meeting on the events calendar of a regularly-scheduled discussion club, including several who had been in numerous meetings on zoning -- tried to grapple with the practical measures to take, we did the following:

1) Nominated several people to make a kind of committee to draft a letter, go to the Lindens, ask for a town hall on zoning and group tools -- but a town hall that would have a panel of experts speak first, then plenty of time for Q&A. These were Gwyn Llewelyn, Justice Soothsayer, Cocoanut Koala -- taking responsibility for getting the Lindens first of all to articulate their plans publicly -- which they have not done -- and do it so in the most open format for the community possible.

2) The letter proceeded to get drafted, but along the way hit some political snags -- somebody interested in boosting the world-governance functions of Democracy Island asked that the Linden-sponsored town-hall zoning meeting be held on Democracy Island -- I nixed this idea (and hope it won't go forward) because I do not want Democracy Islanders arrogating to themselves the function of convening and promoting and moderating sensitive and difficult community meetings especially on issues about which they have absolutely no experience -- like the struggles of people on the mainland to zone their sim (struggles utterly alien to them as islanders).

3) Suddenly, without notice to any of us in the Friday night meeting, Gwyn convened an out-of-schedule Thinkers meeting Sunday afternoon at 1:00 p.m. at Neualtenburg, allowed Thinker Prefect Traxx Hathor to speak at length without any pushback against his ideas and notions of "dangerous individuals" and "dictators" (see below) that ran completely counter to the sense of the group on Friday (including her own alleged opinions and concerns expressed at that time) -- and had him post a transcript of the meeting -- and also make his own interventions, over which of course she supposedly had no control, nor attempted to make control.

Startled at this high-handedness, and stunned, I simply informed her that it was really mean-spirited not to have invited us to her meeting of "Thinkers" -- especially those "Doers" like myself from the Friday night meeting who actually run land groups and can actually speak up practically against hysterics and fear-mongerers like Traxx, who call individuals who pay for a sim and tier it and put a business enabling hundreds of people to have land and homes on it, "individuals to be feared in Second Life" or "dictators".

I cut her friendship card -- not ever something I do lightly -- and I won't be speaking to her again on these issues unless it's in public with plenty of witnesses, with more than 2 others also to hold her to account. Back-rooming and back-stabbing and public posturing on the forums on this type of hugely controversial and difficult issue of importance to many in the community are simply unacceptable.

In short, a typical inworld power-struggle has begun over a feared Linden change, much disinformation is going around and speculation, and people are jockeying for position to make sure they, and they alone, are heard and heeded by the Lindens.

Non pasarant.

So in this situation, I can only point out the obvious once again: "nothing about us/without us".

So here are my suggestions:

1) The Lindens need to convene a meeting in-world with those who run land groups currently for businesses or group projects (i.e. as distinct from their residences). To dilute the meeting with those who do not, who are speculators, fear-mongers, socialist kibbutzers, etc. is completely unfair and unjust. They already have the forums to hear out those types; Lindens need to be willing to heed those who actually live and work and struggle with groups day in and day out.

They should be doing nothing that separates any individual who makes investment of time, talent, and treasure in this treacherous world of theirs from their money and land.

2) The Lindens need to convene a town-hall type meeting, but moderate it a hell of a lot better than they have been. A very strong-voiced and muscular Linden at least 7 feet tall needs to STAND UP at the start of the meeting and SHOUT that the meeting is MODERATED with the use of the soap-box or IM'd speakers list, not sit for 10 minutes while everyone jeers and catcalls. This meeting could have such a panel of experts as we had indicated, but also plenty of time for Q&A. Two hours is reasonable.

3) Lindens and Thinkers alike need to stop citing -- and dangerously nerfing policy around -- this fake, hypothetical, utopian "group of equals who all shared equally in purchase price and all share in tier on one sim to do some marvelous project."

Such a group does not exist in Second Life.

No, it does not.

Please cite it if  you think it really does. We'll pick it apart.

If you thought it existed, it's because you don't realize that in 99 percent of the cases, one person pays most of, if not all, of the tier, or most of, if not all the purchase price, then gets others to help. There are many reasons for this, among which the bad group tools figure prominently -- but mainly it's because one person usually has to take responsibility.

The tools reform must proceed from a rich and robust recognition of this REALITY and not be built from a vaunted, fake, hypothosis that there are groups of well-intentioned, noble individuals each of whom puts in equal amounts of tier and each of whom paid an equal portion of the purchase price and therefore each of whom equally needs to be protected from some putative rogue one of their equal members who rampages like a dictator. If a group and a situation actually like this can be found by day with a microscope, great, but they are really not in existence and everyone knows it.

The tools could PROMOTE such collaborative groups into being, by making it safer to donate tier, safer to share money -- but I doubt that degree of complexity is going to be addressed now.

What we need to look at is groups as they really exist now with their real features, how to enhance and protect and promote them, summon others into being, and make zoning possible.

As has been aptly noted in the Thinker's meeting, the Lindens are likely holding out the concept of quickly-reformed group tools as a way of assuring new sim buyers -- especially buyers of these new continents of 10-40 sims! that they will not have to suffer any Lazarus type problems.

Those existing universities who have lots of students to make up members and even officers of a group, and who have the grant money to hire consultants -- like Democracy Island -- could then buy landscaped contiguous mainland sim batches and have their groups (in which one person will have have the grant recipient or Principle Investigator's authority to expend a grant) without fearing Lazarus or other types of griefing.

Those old SL businesses that grouped their land with alts or their inworld hubbies, on not-new sims, dotted with Lazarus, will likely be out of luck. They will likely also face a removal of the 10 percent bonus -- as payment for the new group-tools protection and as a further belt-tightening measure by LL--, and will likely either be forced to covenant with strangers, or covenant only parts of sims, and still live with Lazarus.

Mostly, what the Lindens will ultimately achieve is privileging of the covenanted groups. New people buying new continents and covenanting their land, or very old beta-testers who formed fiercely-loyal tribes and easlily make groups on old sims -- will then be upheld as the "better groups" who have more protections against griefing, more options for participation, protection against "dictatorships". With better tools, safer sims, they'll have more attractive sims -- more business.

Anyone who doesn't go along with this convenant, who keeps the old group tools as they are, or who merely remains as sole owner of his land and business, will be pointed to and scolded as "a dictator" or "not covenanted" -- and possibly even hounded out of business, given the evil, malicious capacity for group persecution that always prevails in SL. At any rate, unable to address the problem of Lazarus without taking on the problems of covenants, they'll have less attractive sims.

Suxxors to be them!

As I understand it, it's not that I should fear a new system where new sim owners and covenanted groups will be portrayed as the safer, better, better-looking sim groups, while those of us on the older mainland sims without covenants, or without groups, or with groups that don't use the new tools as the Lindens wish for their socially-engineering purposes. It's that I should plan for it.

The Real Dictators

By announcing that he is planning on changing the group tools, Philip Linden, unwitting or not, has sparked another power struggle in SL and caused a great deal of debate, sometimes anguished. The news in his latest Metaverse Messenger interview that he would be creating some kind of group powers to "covenant" land and zone sims has been met with mixed views -- many are very happy that he's trying to think of a way to get rid of the Lazarus Divine problem, without seeming to encroach upon freedom of expression. Others are alarmed at the power that appears to be given either to the founder, or to the abstraction called the covenant group itself -- depending on how you look at it, depending on your experience of groups in SL, and depending on your own personal or group agenda.

The first sally in this propaganda war, not surprisingly, comes from Traxx Hathor, he whose avatar "Nobody" handily won the election in the Sims Online Test City by urging everyone to "vote for nobody because we don't need a government" (hahaha). In TSO, it was a laugh; in SL, it is sinister. In TSO, you vote for "Nobody" and "Nobody" could try to be ruler -- but the lack of RL money, very limited and rigid game tools, etc. means it doesn't go very far and you can always laugh and log-off.

In SL, sounding the alarm about "not having government so you won't get dictators" is populist, and is the best form of cover to stealthily take over groups that will form ostensibly to ditch or prevent dictators -- and become the worst kind of dictators themselves (aren't they always).

In defense of his notion of "evil dictators" who form groups and then wish to expel those who go against their original goals -- a seemingly legitimate and normal concept -- in the Polysci forum, Traxx sounds the self-serving alarm: "Other people in the group cannot get rid of the founder nor the founder's alts, which might be the only other officers. However the founder can boot any member whenever he chooses for whatever reason or excuse."

You might ask why such officers wouldn't just pull their tier and make their own group? Only in a situation where all had pooled money and collectively bought a sim could this actually create a problem -- that scenario is so rare in SL that to build an entire toolset around it is absurd. The much more common format is one person taking responsibility for a sim in a world where he accepts enormous cost and risk.

Yet "Individuals have proven to be very dangerous in SL," said Iron Perth in a discussion Thinker and Nberger Gwyn Llewelyn convened in Neualtenberg (a discussion put on at the last minute, out of schedule, to which many of us who had been deeply involved in discussing the issue with Gwyn just the night before were not invited.)

"Agree, Iron," said Traxx -- and of course, what they mean is individuals who dissent from the sort of group-think that groups like Thinkers and Neualtenberg, and the forums royals can conceive, and disseminate with an iron hand not only in the forums, but in the world.

"even group foinder myust bve subjest to expulsion by THE FREAKKIN GROUPP" says Elizabetha Pirandello -- in a matter that is typical of the hysteria that develops when somebody like Traxx whips up the notions of dictators in a group -- so that a person who spends time and money on land could be expelled from his investment by a mob!

How could it be that these very aggressive and very opinionated beings -- themselves individuals attempting to influence everybody -- could so tendentiously issue Edicts Against the Individual, that sacred being forming the basis of any rule of law or democratic society? And in the SL scenario, that sacred being who PAID FOR IT DUH?

It's demagoguery of groups and collectivism, pure and simple. They'd like to set up some straw man like Prok, "that banned forum troll" as "a dangerous individual" merely because I refuse to go along with group-think, and stick to my own views of the state of affairs in SL and am not intimidated from expressing the truth as I see it.

And if invoking the terror of the Dangerous Individual is not enough, Traxx is at it again with the demagoguic "taking advantage of newbies" -- the old "think of the children" gambit.

Of course, it's hard to imagine a person who is responsible, who makes an investment, who wishes to have a good business, that is going to "take advantage of newbies". Those types are usually alts who flip land or don't really have public, esablished personas. But it's often been a refrain of Traxx's -- because of his own baggage -- that my plan for tier donation is a "scam of newbies". Of course real newbies and real oldbies who have taken part in this simple and normal program find it is nothing of the kind. Paying a person for first land (something I will do occasionally) at a fair market price is not a scam and never taking advantage of them. When I think of the hours and hours and HOURS I have spent in SL in the last year helping newbies, often to buy land effectively, without any interest of my own in it, and more often than not, in the rare cases I do buy their land, getting stuck with unsellable lemons in Lemon!

But if you want to gin up a lynch mob on the forums or in the world, just scream "newbie exploitation" at the top of your lungs, and someone is sure to feel like the charge sticks.

It would be good if Traxx Hathor, Iron Perth, and others concrerned about dictators on the grid could provide actual facts and cite actual situations that actually illustrate their rabid notions.

Let them come up with their inworld experience of *land-owning* groups (of which they have precious little) -- groups made up of people other than one special partner or their alts -- or shut up.

I fight every day against Lazarus Divine, using all kinds of methods. But I wouldn't go around screaming hysterically about "the dangers of the individual" due to Laz. They'd like to describe someone like Lazarus Divine as a "dangerous individual" but that's not the focus to make -- they reach for recipes like land bans, and mutes, and shuns for a problematic character like Lazarus, when what is really needed is The Rule of Law -- which means a focus on law, not its breakers, and a focus on the sanctity and primacy of the Rule of Law -- not the breaker of it or the enforcer of it. When the Lindens can invoke 3 TOS and CS clauses against Lazarus, they will have bolstered their own Rule of Law; they will have enhanced their credibility; and they will have dealt with Lazarus without in fact harming him or obliterating him as an individual -- if he is willing to stand down in deference to the law as promulgated.

It's not Lazarus who is the dangerous individual. The dangerous individuals -- in terms of the health of the body politics -- are weak-willed Lindens who cannot enforce the Rule of Law -- their own Rule of Law.

This is how democratic and liberal societies of the West have been run -- safeguarding the rights of the individual while safeguarding the state that guarantees those rights; protecting the individual from the oppression of the non-state mob or the state. More despotic societies of Eurasia, Asia, Africa and elsewhere in the world have reached for collectivism, suppression of the individual as Dangerous, and other cultural and political modes that privilege the group over the person -- for all kinds of historical reasons.

There is no need to replicate this in Second Life, whatever its multinational character; there is a reason why both Europe and North America are filled with Asians and Eurasians fleeing despoticism, especially scientists and intellectuals.

The twentieth century is littered with failed experiments in collectivism, leading to the deaths of millions; let us heed them.

Many of us in business have long wanted Linden Lab just to make what we view as "normal group tools to have a normal company with a normal CEO and board of directors". As we don't find business or "capitalism" any kind of "evil," to us it seems perfectly natural that tools that can help such normal corporate structures come into being should be created and enhanced by LL.

After all, if someone wants to make groups that enable hippie communes, or art collectives, which to come into being, where everybody shares and the group imposes its will on the individual, they can do that - using existing tools, or their needs can be accommodate in the reforms.

But various factions, ranging from socialists who hate business, to Randists to authoritarians who hate individual rights, to some of the new celebrators of "the social revolution in groups" that Beth Noveck is touting, are hastening to get their hands on this process so it can serve their ends -- to privilege collectives because collectives are easy for a strong-willed individual or group of individuals to manipulate -- especially, ironically, when individual rights are crushed and groupism is invoked.

A common populist approach of authoritarians is to claim they are overthrowing dictators. In Traxx's mind, there is always someone "trying to take us over" or "trying to establish a government" or "running groups and newbie scams and rental agencies to establish dictatorial powers, etc." Yeah, that's me, and his baggage there is clear. But as it happens, this kind of clamour and noise about dictatorships instills fear into many people, and they rush like sheep to embrace whatever modification they feel needs to be put into place to prevent this -- without really looking at how group tools really play out inworld.

It's hard for me -- or any other people who spend real money and real time on this world -- to understand why the founder of a business -- the person who spends his own money to purchase the land and pay tier, and works his own hours and labours to create something -- should be called "a dictator". In fact, he's merely someone making an investment and taking responsibility. That person in turn needs to find either 2 other alts to be officers, due to the flawed nature of the tools currently, or very, very trusted friends.

If he finds he has treacherous officers, he needs to be able to boot them, or members. After all, it is his money and tier. In situations where there is a group made up not of alts or officers as distinct from members, there is the issue of how a group of officers behave to each other. Linden tools cannot fix human nature. There will always be rogue, griefing, and treacherous officers.

But a founder who faces them must have the right to boot them -- on his own, with tools he controls. He can opt to give those same powers to others. If they do not like his methods of rule, they are free to form another group. It's only $100. Traxx and others handily forget the way in which most people deal with griefing officers or those who betray them (and they ought to remember!) -- the founder just forms another group around the first group and puts the reliable people into it, and moves his land.

Of course, in a case where the founder and the officers all own land, and any one of them can seize it, the Lindens end up being called in, as happened with GIGAS. Though rare, the tools should be accommodating to this situation. And again, there can only be a plea for discussion, wisdom, and democratic participation in the devising of this solution.

It does no good to label a person concerned about others screwing him out of his land, his work, his business, as a "dictatorship" whose "dictatorial powers" need to be curbed by a group.

In a group where, say, six people all put in, say, 512 and all are equal in terms of investment and tier, then perhaps their covenant at the outset might work. But what happens if the founder has to leave SL? What if any of the original members who understood the essence of the covenant cannot be reached or go away for extended times? There are so many awful scenarios that happen in SL that they must all be examined seriously.

The problem is that any officer can sell the land out from any other officer, even if they have not paid for the land, or paid tier. This problem has caused enormous grief and loss in SL, and the Lindens are right to address it.

Prior to 1.7, there was a worse problem -- any member, but especially rogue griefing members who joined a group just to grief -- could pull an anonymous switch called "officer recall" and paralyze the group to new membership. That targeted officer could not invite any other officers or call any proposals -- he was frozen. A group could remain paralyzed this way (as Ravenglass Rentals often did). The only work around (which not everyone new) was to leave the group, and have another officer invite you back in. That unfroze it and ended the process. The problem is that you took your tier with you when you left the group, and if you did not have an alt or trusted friend to invite you back in, your group would be dangerously untiered and subject to Linden seizure. On the whole, a nasty business.

chad statosky, CEO of Nexcom, employer of Traxx Hathor, who is on the board of Nexcom, admitted to me openly that he used officer recall to grief me and harass me due to past disputes. This kind of behaviour is despicable, but there is nothing in the TOS to prevent it. Mercifully, it's gone now, though some keep screaming on the forums about it.

Why? Because in getting rid of that evil power of anonymous freezing and griefing, the Lindens could not leave well enough alone. They could have merely left "officer recall" as a function for officers only. They didn't. Instead, they made it so that founders of groups could ask to have officers removed by calling the LL 1-800 number. Then they'd be manually removed.

Wierd, eh? Government interference, quiet phone calls -- very unsavoury. Anshe did this to me in Metaverse Justice Watch, and enabled Jauani Wu to keep griefing the group. It's the sort of thing others felt they had to resort to in order to get rid of griefing officers -- but it's unacceptable state interference with groups.

How to get around this problem?

My solution, which I will write about separately, is to create 24 functions and have the founder toggle all of them individually for each person who joins, so that if he wants 3 other officers he trusts, he can make all of them have exactly the same powers as he does; if he doesn't fully trust them, or merely wants to hire employees, he

But the Lindens, not focussing really on groups, civil society, types of groups, or anything in the larger picture, and once again, seeming to be in a hurry to change something to solve a social problem (Lazarus) are hurrying...and hurrying means they have cooked up something else, called "covenants".

What's not to like about covenants? Seemingly a group of people in grouped land or a project or any sort could set up rules that anyone with, say, a building above two-storeys would be removed. The founder would deputize officers who would guard the covenant and essentially have the power to return prims. It's not clear whether the old problem of officers being able to sell land out from others would remain, but we can rapidly see the huge flaw here: 

What might the Lindens do to really fuck things up? I can imagine one thing might be to make it so that if you want to group your land, the price you will pay is to take on board a collection of officers and members who at any time may turn on you, for any reason, often of the literalist kind, and expel you from your own group, for which you not only paid $100 to form, but paid for land and tier.

That is, you will not have the option with grouped land to NOT have a convenant (let's hope the Lindens are smart enough to avoid this!) but will be forced to take one on.

By empowering groups, the Lindens could wind up stepping on individual rights, and the rights of investors.

Let me give an example. Let's say I have a rule that you can't build over two storeys. Indeed I have such a rule. I find it's a good one to prevent people from both building stupid plywood skyscrapers on 1024 m2 of land, or building ugly things that block the view of those behind. Two storeys, even if not the prettiest, usually sits more lightly on a neighbour and his view than three.

Very rarely thought, you get someone who asks to have three storeys. You look at the situation, and you see, for example, that they have a three-story castle, but it's really more like 2.5. Or they have two storeys, but an interesting sculpture on the roof. Or they have to their backs another sim, with a wall, and they don't block anybody's view. Your intent for your law was to prevent obstruction of views and make neighbours get along. That is your deep and wise intent. Any literalist can come along and make a superficial case that three storeys is breaking the law -- though it bothers no one in that specific instance, and a good tenant with a 2.5-storey castle who stays a month is better than 3 bad tenants who churn through and put up purple trailers that you can't really ban under your lax rules.

In other words, in making laws, you have to have discretion and common sense. You can divine the intent of the law -- but literalists, especially literalists with bad intentions to harry and harass you and the group, can invoke the literalism of the law (the letter and not the spirit) and claim that you must be ejected from your group, that your tenant with the castle of 2.5 storeys must have their prims removed, against your will, against theirs, merely because, say, somebody wants that lot for themselves, or just wants to annoy you.

It's hard to know how these new technical tools will be able to have content as distinct from functions. At the end of the day, the group will be something fairly primitive for this reason -- it is not a human brain functioning at the helm, but a machine of code.

What it might do is have officers who can return prims -- or members who can return prims -- if all click off a box called a "covenant". That means while Philip Linden could not find the will within himself to enforce at least 3 clauses of the TOS about Lazarus (disturbing the peace, etc.) wishing to protect to the end the right of land ownership and the right to do "WTF on my land", he could engender a situation in grouped land where a tier-payer or purchaser of land could be ejected for what others perceive about him -- in good faith or in bad faith will be beside the point as the tools will be colour blind and valueless and wisdomless on these matters, in the hands of the "group".

How will "the group tools" address a covenant-breaker? Most likely, they'll do it in the old template of the "officer recall" -- by a vote set to either 2/3 or majority. In the same way as an officer recalled in the old version, a covenant-breaker might find himself frozen, and the group could be frozen, too, as the concept is that new members could be mobbed in to vote one way by the targeted covenant-breaker. Progress, hmm???

Traxx envisions a group with his alts and his one trusted business partner -- the only kinds of land groups he puts tier, money, and time in. But other people all over SL have very, very different kinds of experiences.

For example, I have land groups with dozens of people who donate tier, as ordinary members, not officers. This is a service to them, so they can get a discount off their rent. It isn't much of a boon to me, in terms of discounting my tier bill, as at my tier level, I buy in half sims, so 5120 of tier one way or another in a group can't discount a bill necessarily. Furthermore, I open myself up to huge risk because at any time, these individuals could pull their tier out from the group and leave my group undertiered. I wind up having to keep in extra just to avoid getting exposed to seizure of land by Governor Linden. The advantage of this system is that the entire group then gets 10 percent more land for each donation -- which I use to buy more primland, and sell the prims at a discount in batches as an addition to existing land. It all works out well, but of course in the new version, something could be broken in this model.

The Lindens might make it that anyone putting tier in a group -- a land group with tier donors -- will be equal, and either able to sell land (as formerly officers only could do) or return prims from land.

Granting the right to return prims to anyone other than an officer or manager is a huge potential menace. Any tenant who doesn't like another tenant's build could return their prims merely by the fact of being in the land group as a donor -- or merely as a member, for that matter. Returning prims has to be left to the discretion of the manager, to avoid conflict among members and avoid griefing and overage of prims -- it is he who must think always of the good of the group, because the tendency of one member might be to put out a huge stockpile of high-prim Linden bears forcing every prim in the sim to go back into everyone's inventory -- as does happen.

Could the Lindens actually contemplating such idiocy, and could someone like Traxx actually applaud the right of ordinary members of a rentals group having the right to return ANYONE's prims in the entire group? Little neighbourhood busy-bodies and Cuban-style block watchers?

Sure they could. Because they're all about empowering groups to effect change -- and as we all know, empowering groups often means that one person with an agenda promoting a group can slip in always behind the scenes and influence it far more than a sole manager, who must take responsibility for his actions publicly and soley.

In Traxx's horror-scenario, "You have to figure out how that powerhungry individual could exploit fundamental human motivations like greed, fear and the desire for attention. Obtaining supporters by exploiting these factors, the powerhungry newcomer could use this system to extend dictatorial authority over one sim after another. The result would be a de facto SL-wide government."

Yet that power-hungry individual is more likely than not to be merely one among the most aggressively obedient majority in a divided group, the most rigorous group-thinker and the most zealous and vicious upholder in a legalistic and literalist way some notion of "group covenant" that has no basis in the spirit of the law, and no ability to become flexible in the face of real-life exceptions (like the 2.5 castle with its back to a high wall on another sim, bothering nobody.)

The Lindens need to be extremely clear-eyed, and really drop any hint of utopianist social-engineering on this one. The potential for menace and loss of hundreds of RL dollars is just to great -- we see that now with their Lazarus-faire attitude on the mainland.

In changing the group tools, the Lindens are also likely to do another belt-tightening measure -- getting rid of the ten percent bonus. They may go in a direction of reform that they'll claim makes groups safer from griefing, and the price they'll extract will be shaking loose people who use officers to make groups and get the advantage of the tier bonus.

While having safe alts is even urged by the Lindens themselves as a protective measure, and is a perfect legitimate and normal function now, by changing the tools or making a claim that it is no longer necessary to have alts as officers to protect one's land (let's say), they'll force people to become sole owners of land -- or else form groups that open them up to the risk of covenants that could terribly hobble just ordinary management and business on a day to day basis (in the name of shriekers like Traxx who are all about covering up their own tracks by howing that we need to be "curbing dictators" by scare-mongering everyone about "dictators").

What will this mean in practical terms?

If I can't have a group for rentals -- because the new convenants will be either unwieldy, or risky, or difficult -- then I can no longer have members join a land group and SET HOME TO HERE. This is a HUGE blow to the rentals business. People will say that in the era of p2p, you don't need SET HOME anymore -- but especially for new people, it's necessary -- they often get lost. I use TP HOME all the time -- many do.

The grouped land also gives an instant list of all parcels, visible to any tenant -- they can pull out the land tab and see all the land available to rent, where they might like to move -- or if they are just joining to browse.

The group gives the manager an instant tool to communicate policies and news and events to all the tenants -- of course he could make a separate group for this purpose, but it's better to have a handy menu to see who actually joined the group to set prims and become a tenant when managing the group -- some would not join a non-land group if they didn't have to set prims.

There's another very important feature which is the ability to temporarily undertier the group in order to make a sale out of it -- a necessary step because of the silly equal distribution of all the money from the sale of the group to every single member of the group even if they never paid a dime for it.

In short, management requires a great deal of responsibility, expense, and labour. It's not dictatorship, but democracy to build a society of groups that have as their leaders people who show responsiblity and make investments and put in labour.

It's the worst kind of irresponsible and even criminal collectivism to enable those who don't have responsibility and don't make purchases or work to have the right to harm others who have.

Democracy of the liberal free-market type requires making group tools that enable businesses to forthrightly, freely, and without harassment, make investments and make profits for the welfare and prosperity of themselves, their customers, and the society at large. To view this normal process as "evil" or "first world" or "greedy" is not only wrong; it will kill this world if this normal process is suppressed.

Meanwhile, we must watch out for the real dictators, those who claim that an individual with rights -- rights that really ought to accrue to him due to his purchasing of a sim and paying its tier -- do not make him a dictator but a responsible manager.

However the Lindens modify the group tools, they need to make the changes opt-in or opt-out, and they need to calibrate them carefully. They cannot be harsh and Darwinistic as they were in suddenly removing the telehubs and putting in p2p in a matter of days; they must be willing to roll back changes if they see they are causing horrors.

Most of all, the Lindens simply must listen to and heed those who actually work with these group tools day in and day out -- not just to Thinkers, but to Doers.