This thread could be headed for demolition down the memory hole, so I'm saving it.
I know, a bit of a rude title, but i did not know how else to put it.
In the recent... one or two years in SL of the 14 I am apparently in here, i noticed that an absurd high number of creators not only sell their items No Modify (which i in itself find absolutely stupid) but - which i find far worse - refuse to list the permissions of the items they sell anywhere on the package. And while im sitting here since half an hour, trying to find out if a certain item is modify, i am also at the same time wondering...
Why the heck are we okay with this?
I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying? I don't agree to no mod and you might see that differently. Okay, fine! But can i at least be informed about the specifics of the stuff i put money in for, thank you very much?
I don't see any kind of movement against this, even tho everyone should be angry at that. In fact, it should be against the rules. In reality thats what we would call "buying a pig in a poke". And by now it seems to be a vast majority of clothing and accessoires related items for those big bodies that just don't tell you.
I want to mod my stuff. Either making my own texture for something, turning a piece invisible or just to link it, if some complex Roleplay-Outfit that also needs me to equip two huds and stuff makes me hit the attachment limit in day and age of extra heads, ears, hair, jewelry, eyes, piercings, a body, hands, feet and then some... I don't get whats so difficult in writing NM/C/NT or something similar on your product page. It can't be too much to ask...
What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?
Edited by Gilliana Parx- You, Blaise Glendevon, Arielle Popstar and 2 others
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Yeah, I just assume things are no modify unless they are actually listed as mod on the advertisement. You are right, there is a definite move away from modifiable items and to more customer hostile things like anti rez scripts too.
- You, Ceka Cianci, Julia Lygon and 2 others
- 5
Your use of "pig in a poke" is completely wrong. It goes along with "the cat is out of the bag". Both refer to purchasing something under completely false pretenses, and "no mod" is pretty up front. Don't buy anything without trying the demo first, that way you have a much better idea what you're purchasing or even if you want it at all.
Cell phones are a very "no mod" item, are they breaking some nonexistent rule by being so? "no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting and protects the creator's ownership of the design. Not all creator's set it up and that's their right to do so.
- Blaise Glendevon, Klytyna, Vicious Hollow and 1 other
- 2
1- 1
ExpandYour use of "pig in a poke" is completely wrong. It goes along with "the cat is out of the bag". Both refer to purchasing something under completely false pretenses, and "no mod" is pretty up front. Don't buy anything without trying the demo first, that way you have a much better idea what you're purchasing or even if you want it at all.
Cell phones are a very "no mod" item, are they breaking some nonexistent rule by being so? "no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting and protects the creator's ownership of the design. Not all creator's set it up and that's their right to do so.
You did not read my post, did you? "No mod" is upfront. But the issue im talking about is not the no mod-issue but that its not even LISTED on the Product itself IF IT IS no modify. As i wrote, you can have a different opinion on no-modify but thats a different topic. However, Im pretty sure its in everyones best interest to know WHAT THE PERMISSIONS ARE before a purchase and that should be the bare minimum.
The Demo of the Product in question shows me exactly that, if it WAS modify, i could turn the part of the item that bothers me invisible. So, if it was, i would buy it immidiately. If it is NO MOD however, that piece is in the way of the outfit i want it for and will not work with the theme. So, its Schroedingers Item. Its either modify and fits perfectly or its no modify and i have no use for it. The problem is; I can't know!
And yes, i wrote the creator and i hope an answer comes... eventually... but i shouldn't have to write a notecard everytime i want to know what permissions the stuff i want to buy has.
Edited by Gilliana ParxIf they don't tell you the permissions when they sell it to you, which they really should, I mean, there's checkboxes for all of it, sometimes you can look under the Contents tab and see if what's in the folder they're selling shows the permissions. If it's in a box or a depacker though, this won't be relevant. Usually you can tell if it's boxed, though.
And if they don't make it possible to find out, and they won't tell you, and you buy it and don't like it, leave a review saying so. Warn other potential buyers that what they're getting isn't Mod and isn't marked. Me, I'd just not buy it if they don't bother telling me. Why support someone who doesn't care if I'm happy as a customer?
Some vendors are total jerks and don't even display any but the good reviews, but you can always still boycott them and refuse to buy from them again, and I'm pretty sure letting friends and acquaintances know to avoid that seller might at least give them an incentive to change their ways, and at least not be so lazy as to refuse to tick a couple of checkboxes when listing an item.
Not sure about reporting, or how it'd work or turn out, but if there's any MP rule about it, you could probably report them, Iunno.
I hate no-mod stuff myself, but I sell some. But I try to make sure whatever isn't mod is that way for a reason, like a script I wrote and don't want changed. I don't understand why so many people wouldn't even allow a person to tint the mesh of an item, but a lot of vendors are indeed that stingy with their perms. Like if they only sell one shirt, and it's in one color, like white, at least let people tint the derned thing! The other side of this of course, is if they sell multiple versions of say, a shirt, and allowing people to mod the texture would be cutting their own thingy off. In that case, they'd be pretty dumb if they left it mod.
Anyway yeah, they could at least mark the permissions on it in their listing. Lazy vendors can't expect to get paid like hard-working and attentive vendors, and ignorance of this fact probably costs them a lot more than they realize. A lot of people are just like me, and won't buy anything if they don't know exactly what they're getting. It's almost as bad as misspelling all of their keyword spam, and never having their listing be seen by anyone who searches for it.
Edited by PheebyKatzEdited by Theresa TennysonExpandYour use of "pig in a poke" is completely wrong. It goes along with "the cat is out of the bag". Both refer to purchasing something under completely false pretenses
No - "pig in a poke" refers to buying something with unknown properties, and "cat is out of the bag" is utterly different - a concealed thing suddenly becomes apparent.
"no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting
How?
ExpandIf they don't tell you the permissions when they sell it to you, which they really should, I mean, there's checkboxes for all of it, sometimes you can look under the Contents tab and see if what's in the folder they're selling shows the permissions. If it's in a box or a depacker though, this won't be relevant. Usually you can tell if it's boxed, though.
And if they don't make it possible to find out, and they won't tell you, and you buy it and don't like it, leave a review saying so. Warn other potential buyers that what they're getting isn't Mod and isn't marked. Me, I'd just not buy it if they don't bother telling me. Why support someone who doesn't care if I'm happy as a customer?
Some vendors are total jerks and don't even display any but the good reviews, but you can always still boycott them and refuse to buy from them again, and I'm pretty sure letting friends and acquaintances know to avoid that seller might at least give them an incentive to change their ways, and at least not be so lazy as to refuse to tick a couple of checkboxes when listing an item.
Not sure about reporting, or how it'd work or turn out, but if there's any MP rule about it, you could probably report them, Iunno.
I hate no-mod stuff myself, but I sell some. But I try to make sure whatever isn't mod is that way for a reason, like a script I wrote and don't want changed. I don't understand why so many people wouldn't even allow a person to tint the mesh of an item, but a lot of vendors are indeed that stingy with their perms. Like if they only sell one shirt, and it's in one color, like white, at least let people tint the derned thing!
Marketplace is usually listed correctly-ish. I think if its wrong here, its in 9 of 10 cases a honest mistake. I mostly refer to creators with almost 90% of their stuff being in world only or on event sales.
And i do boycott that, if its not listed. But that kind of thing does not really do much in SL. There also is no real... counter movement against this i know of. There even is one against no modify, which i again agree is something you can disagree with me on (and i 100% agree there are cases in which something should and can be no modify, no questions asked, its a case to case thing to me), but not for this, which i actually think should be seen as a violation of sorts. |D
In world, i did not yet find an option to tell what permission an item has. Even if you buy from a box that you can inspect to see its content, all contents are usually listed as no copy, no mod, no trans, no matter what they will be when i purchased it. If im wrong and just do not see an option that exist i would be thankful to know! It would make second life a lot easier!
Edited by Gilliana Parxhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letting_the_cat_out_of_the_bag
Both phrases have references to purchase without knowing the details, whether they're simply hidden by chance or deliberately.
" no mod" prevents counterfeiting by not letting unscrupulous persons take an original item apart and using aspects of it to make their own product. It works quite well when paired with "no transfer" and even better with "no copy". I make houses for fun and anytime someone wants one they get it with copy and mod open because it allows them to add textures at will and to have an untouched copy on hand if they do something irreparable. One cannot counterfeit without having full edit ability over the item in question. It supports "do your own work, don't use mine without permission"
ExpandYou did not read my post, did you? "No mod" is upfront. But the issue im talking about is not the no mod-issue but that its not even LISTED on the Product itself IF IT IS no modify. As i wrote, you can have a different opinion on no-modify but thats a different topic. However, Im pretty sure its in everyones best interest to know WHAT THE PERMISSIONS ARE before a purchase and that should be the bare minimum.
The Demo of the Product in question shows me exactly that, if it WAS modify, i could turn the part of the item that bothers me invisible. So, if it was, i would buy it immidiately. If it is NO MOD however, that piece is in the way of the outfit i want it for and will not work with the theme. So, its Schroedingers Item. Its either modify and fits perfectly or its no modify and i have no use for it. The problem is; I can't know!
And yes, i wrote the creator and i hope an answer comes... eventually... but i shouldn't have to write a notecard everytime i want to know what permissions the stuff i want to buy has.
Yes i read your whole post. Seeing if a purchased item is no mod or not isn't at all difficult. Get the demo. Wear it (or rez it, whichever is the intended method of deployment). Right click. Select "edit". You're welcome. Looks like you're going to have a lousy SL experience by assuming all the creators are evil and out to get you. Why so eager to alter others works? If it bothers you that much, get Blender and Avastar and make your own stuff, just make sure it's all open perms so nobody thinks you're arrogant with the "no mod"
- Klytyna and Tarani Tempest
- 1
1
Yeah, if an inworld vendor doesn't have the C-M-T thingy showing the perms in the ad image on the vendor, I'd be skeptical of the contents.
And yeah, anyone listing items on the MP after a long night of making stuff can probably be forgiven forgetting to tick some things in the listing editor. Vendors with a conscience usually go OMG SORRY and fix it if you point it out to them politely.
And yeah, many creators really do not like people taking their stuff apart and making things out of it. Others are okay with it, which is why we have loads of full-perms stuff on the MP as well. It just usually costs a lot more than premade-for-the-consumer stuff, because well, people make stuff out of it and make money off of it. Anyone who makes anything has every right to govern their creations as they see fit. I give full perms on a lot of what I sell, just so people can make other things with it if they like, but even I have a few items I really don't want to see anyone sticking an invisible box on (so their name shows as creator) and claiming is their own creation.
Still sucks when you get something cool and pay a lot for it, and then realize you can't use it or make it work for you, though.
Edited by PheebyKatzCopy, mod, no transfer is the preferred way to sell anything...IMO.
" no mod" prevents counterfeiting by not letting unscrupulous persons take an original item apart and using aspects of it to make their own product. It works quite well when paired with "no transfer" and even better with "no copy".
Theresa Tennyson nods and smiles.
Yes i read your whole post. Seeing if a purchased item is no mod or not isn't at all difficult. Get the demo. Wear it (or rez it, whichever is the intended method of deployment). Right click. Select "edit". You're welcome. Looks like you're going to have a lousy SL experience by assuming all the creators are evil and out to get you. Why so eager to alter others works? If it bothers you that much, get Blender and Avastar and make your own stuff, just make sure it's all open perms so nobody thinks you're arrogant with the "no mod"
Most demos are No mod on.purpose and tells you nothing about the original in that respect.
Yes i read your whole post. Seeing if a purchased item is no mod or not isn't at all difficult. Get the demo. Wear it (or rez it, whichever is the intended method of deployment). Right click. Select "edit".
So, demos have the same permissions as the purchased item? My, that would be a recipe for chaos, wouldn't it?
Most demos are No mod on.purpose and tells you nothing about the original in that respect.
Perhaps best to always assume No Mod. It doesn't bother me in the slightest of the creators want to lock down perms or not.
Theresa Tennyson nods and smiles.
So? Copybots are a great way to lose your account. Do you have something of value to say or are you just so painfully itchy to attempt to one up me on something so insignificant?
Edited by Charalyne Blackwood"no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting
Nope. While creators would like to think so, anyone truly determined to rip off someone's creation can find a way -- and No Mod will not prevent it.
I most definitely will not give specifics on that.
Nope. While creators would like to think so, anyone truly determined to rip off someone's creation can find a way -- and No Mod will not prevent it.
I most definitely will not give specifics on that.
Someone already did. Again, it's a fast track to account loss.
ExpandI know, a bit of a rude title, but i did not know how else to put it.
In the recent... one or two years in SL of the 14 I am apparently in here, i noticed that an absurd high number of creators not only sell their items No Modify (which i in itself find absolutely stupid) but - which i find far worse - refuse to list the permissions of the items they sell anywhere on the package. And while im sitting here since half an hour, trying to find out if a certain item is modify, i am also at the same time wondering...
Why the heck are we okay with this?
I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying? I don't agree to no mod and you might see that differently. Okay, fine! But can i at least be informed about the specifics of the stuff i put money in for, thank you very much?
I don't see any kind of movement against this, even tho everyone should be angry at that. In fact, it should be against the rules. In reality thats what we would call "buying a pig in a poke". And by now it seems to be a vast majority of clothing and accessoires related items for those big bodies that just don't tell you.
I want to mod my stuff. Either making my own texture for something, turning a piece invisible or just to link it, if some complex Roleplay-Outfit that also needs me to equip two huds and stuff makes me hit the attachment limit in day and age of extra heads, ears, hair, jewelry, eyes, piercings, a body, hands, feet and then some... I don't get whats so difficult in writing NM/C/NT or something similar on your product page. It can't be too much to ask...
What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?
For me, it depends on what the item is. I insist on No Mod for all of my household and landscaping items. I don't usually care when it comes to clothing as I'm seldom ever interested in making changes to those items. I prefer No Mod for hair, but I will accept it as long as I get a demo that shows it fits well and as long as there is a supplied color/tint that works for me.
As for specifying the perms on the vendor package, I think it should be - or at least most of the time. I think these days that it is so commonly accepted that clothing will be No Mod, that one only needs to publish the perms if it IS MOD.
Edited by LittleMe JewellYes i read your whole post. Seeing if a purchased item is no mod or not isn't at all difficult. Get the demo. Wear it (or rez it, whichever is the intended method of deployment). Right click. Select "edit". You're welcome. Looks like you're going to have a lousy SL experience by assuming all the creators are evil and out to get you. Why so eager to alter others works? If it bothers you that much, get Blender and Avastar and make your own stuff, just make sure it's all open perms so nobody thinks you're arrogant with the "no mod"
Im sorry, what are you talking about? Demos don't show if something is mod, copy or anything. They show the permissions... of the demo. And naturally a demo is no mod, no copy, no trans because its something you didn't buy yet.
Again, my point is not the modify thing. Its not telling people the permissions upfront.
And to your criticism of me; 10/20/2008 (5130) This is my accountage. Im not new to this. Im also part of Process of Elemination. You are free to look that up on the Marketplace. Further im a Sim-builder and if you get the Second Life Weekly Newsletter or follow SL's Twitter; My work was on the cover on August 16 of this year. I am very much also creating content. So please don't talk like im some kind of Jerk who just wants to insult creators.
Edited by Gilliana ParxSomeone already did. Again, it's a fast track to account loss.
Most definitely, but only if the person gets caught. The very determined will not be deterred by the possibility of account loss. Usually a No Mod setting is simply giving a creator a false sense of security on that front.
Now, I understand that some creators also do No Mod so that their "vision/design" is not messed with. For some things, I can totally understand that, but not for all things.
I don't care for no-mod myself and ya, some have either gotten laxed with putting it on there, or came in seeing it as something normal to do, because they came in after we were already eased into no mod becoming a normal thing..
it's like that old saying, what you don't know won't hurt you.. New customers that joined after it became the norm, see the current as the norm..Older residents see it as a change and it's gonna bother some and not others..
Myself , it bothers me and does have an impact on things I might or might not buy..
The best way to treat at a creator or a full permi painter, that sets up a business in SL is, like a business.. Then decide if you want to do business with them or not.. Decide if what they are wanting you to buy, lines up with who you would do business with and who you wouldn't.. Then just stick to the rules you apply for yourself..
I always ask myself, do I reaaaally need this or do I reaaally just want it.. Does it line up with my rules.. If not, it's a good chance I'll find something similar somewhere else, because honestly, there aren't too many separating themselves from the pack and someone does have something similar elsewhere..
Find the ones that fit your rules and make a list of those places and do business with them..
Events and sales really are just the old big malls we used to have in SL, that had a bunch of follower stores, setting up in places to get side traffic from, the really good creators that were the cream of the crop main attractions..
Events and sales are pretty much turning into those malls, but over time many of the big name have reduced more and more over time.
Remember when fifty linden Friday used to have a lot of really big names in them? Ya not as much anymore..
Just look at your money as how hard you worked for it, then see how much of your own rules you are ready to break and why, to get this item..
I started looking at things in that light and really cut down on a lot of the clutter I was buying.. hehehe
Edited by Ceka CianciOn the copybotting subject: There are entire communities online that promote copybotting, and a ridiculous number of the people in them don't even seem to know what SL is, and/or haven't even been inworld more than once or twice. It's a confederacy of dunces for the most part, at least from what I can tell.
On the subject of selling stolen/fraudlent creations, a vendor in the anime community in SL was outed for selling things that they got for free on 3D asset sharing sites and not telling anyone that's what they were selling. The mall had a big sign up declaring the vendor a thief and that they had been ousted from the mall and were to be shunned. They also gave people the link to where the user got the free meshes and told people they could just go there and get the stuff themselves and upload it, because it was free for personal use, and NOT commercial use.
They soiled their own reputation for a while, and had to start making all of their own stuff to get any respect from the community. Last I saw it seemed they had learned their lesson and all of their goods were their own creations. I know people with throwaway accounts wouldn't care, but at least in this one case the vendor had enough emotional investment in their SL to try and make good on their mistakes. Probably for the best, because a lot of anime fans can be quite difficult to deal with if you take their L$ when they could have gotten the thing for free, or for the cost of uploading it themselves.
I'd be pretty upset too. Especially when they have the gall to make it no-mod, and make a big fuss on their listing page about what they'll do to you if you if you don't follow every jot and tittle of how they expect you to honor their rights as the "creator" of their ganked game assets that weren't even made with SL in mind. Protip: Uploading it doesn't make you the creator. It just makes it say you are. Few are fooled by this if they've seen more of the internet than Second Life.
Edited by PheebyKatzFor me, it depends on what the item is. I insist on No Mod for all of my household and landscaping items. I don't usually care when it comes to clothing as I'm seldom ever interested in making changes to those items. I prefer No Mod for hair, but I will accept it as long as I get a demo that shows it fits well and as long as there is a supplied color/tint that works for me.
I actually don't mind it with hair either. Often enough its just rigged anyhow, so there is no real point? And even if its mod it often is one big piece so even try-error texturing to delete bangs and all is not... really vaiable but thats fine. I noticed that many hair creators oddly enough do MORE modify recently or have, like... the bangs on the front be seperated items.
ExpandThere are entire communities online that promote copybotting, and a ridiculous number of the people in them don't even seem to know what SL is, and/or haven't even been inworld more than once or twice. It's a confederacy of dunces for the most part, at least from what I can tell.
On the subject of stolen creations, a vendor in the anime community in SL was outed for selling things that they got for free on 3D asset sharing sites and not telling anyone that's what they were selling. The mall had a big sign up declaring the vendor a gthief and that they had been ousted from the mall and were to be shunned. They also gave people the link to where the user got the free meshes and told people they could just go there and get the stuff themselves and upload it, because it was free for personal use.
They soiled their own reputation for a while, and had to start making all of their own stuff to get any respect from the community. Last I saw it seemed they had learned their lesson and all of their goods were their own creations. I know people with throwaway accounts wouldn't care, but at least in this one case the vendor had enough emotional investment in their SL to try and make good on their mistakes.
Would it be fair to ask who the creator was? Not to shun them, im mostly interested if its a redemption arc...
Yea, copybotting is just all types of wrong. It is basically theft... which is absurdly petty when a lot of items are like... the equivalent of a dollar or euro already.
Even ignoring that there are ways of copying mesh/prim objects that are undetectable, inspecting a modifiable mesh object will not tell anyone anything about that object that they can use to replicate or "counterfeit" it. Scripts are different and nobody puts in modifiable scripts on a commercial product. However most people just want the object to be modifiable so that they can adjust materials, re-texture, tint, etc. and in these discussions are not expecting scripts to be modifiable as well.
If any creator believes that no-mod protects anything, then they are likely to be taken in by all kinds of SL scams too.
Would it be fair to ask who the creator was? Not to shun them, im mostly interested if its a redemption arc...
No, it wouldn't. I value my account and my own rep, what there is of it. Sorry. It's against the rules to do that, as far as I can tell.
I don't even mention someone's name if they tick me off on the forum, I just let people figure out who it is from context. Naming people out loud in connection with anything bad is a sure-fire way to get your post edited by a mod/Mole, or get a warning, at the very least.
I'm sure you could find out on your own, if you felt like it. I just can't name-drop in here. Wouldn't be right.
I mean, if we could, the forums would be full of people assassinating each other's characters for ticking them off inworld, etc., as people try to do on occasion. The forum staff really don't need that much drama bulldooky, they have enough to deal with as it is.
Edited by PheebyKatz!quit
It's the union label.. hehehe
!quit
It's the union label.. hehehe
Ahhh, those were the days
Ahhh, those were the days
When I first would see those popping up, I was like who is quitting what and do I need to be quitting something? What the hell am I missing out on!! \o/
hehehe
ExpandEven ignoring that there are ways of copying mesh/prim objects that are undetectable, inspecting a modifiable mesh object will not tell anyone anything about that object that they can use to replicate or "counterfeit" it. Scripts are different and nobody puts in modifiable scripts on a commercial product. However most people just want the object to be modifiable so that they can adjust materials, re-texture, tint, etc. or in these discussions are not expecting scripts to be modifiable as well.
If any creator believes that no-mod protects anything, then they are likely to be taken in by all kinds of SL scams too.
There were and probably more today, so many that never took the time to really even understand how it works.. They were easy to spot out back then because of the protection they had in their stores..
I don't even think they had to be in the same sim, just in cam range to steal a whole sim's contents. It's been awhile, but I remember, they could stand right next to you and change right into an exact copy of your avatar or copy everything in the sim no matter what protections things had on it.
Edited by Ceka Cianci"no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting and protects the creator's ownership of the design.
No it doesn't in reality, your statement could mislead people. New or uninformed creators end up missing out on many sales as they think no mod is some sort of ownership protection. They should be fully aware of copyright laws and how to protect their designs external to Second Life, so they can enforce if needed. No mod does nothing in relationship to "ownership".
The only user case when they is actually true are elements like scripts where they are server side (if you mean to stop copying contents).
To OP
Home & Decor people will always be mod if they want volume of sales.
Some scripts in Home & Decor may not be mod e.g. for Huds purely as they are third party items.
It is always worth asking the creator if they will do a mod version and a polite discussion. It may be an old item, a new creator or somebody not understanding the commercial benefits of providing mod items to their customers.
Fashion people (generally) will go no mod (I don't agree with it) if there are fatpacks etc - the rationale from some I have heard directly from is they don't want people tinting a white item (huge generalisation here) to lose out on sales.
Honestly you can normally find things very similar in Second Life if one creator isn't meeting your direct needs that will have the perms you would like.
- Ceka Cianci, steeljane42, Sid Nagy and 3 others
- 6
I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying?
Creators should list permissions and I prefer mod stuff, but I'm never going to agree that all creators produce worthless uncreative junk that anyone could make. If it was that quick and easy, you'd make everything you need and never need to buy anything. Taking out your upset on all creators, including the ones doing exactly what you wanted, is not going to improve anything.
- Sid Nagy, Rolig Loon, Gabriele Graves and 2 others
- 4
- 1
Just as OP states that she deems certain actions by a business owner as 'creator arrogance", i can flip the scales and say that projecting your way of thinking on a creator in an effort to making then conform to your satisfaction, is "consumer arrogance"
A creator has no obligation to conform to anyone. If a consumer does not like the way a creator conducts their business, they can respond by not buying from them. But the constant complaining about the "Mod/No Mod" issue and now the way a creator states or does not state permissions on a product is just whining.
Don't like a creator? Move on with your day and don't buy from them.
A creator has no obligation to conform to anyone. If a consumer does not like the way a creator conducts their business, they can respond by not buying from them. But the constant complaining about the "Mod/No Mod" issue and now the way a creator states or does not state permissions on a product is just whining.
Don't like a creator? Move on with your day and don't buy from them.
I think it is good to call out the sort of shady business practices that some creators indulge in to dupe their customers, as it will hopefully send a message to newer people that not all that glitters is gold and that caveat emptor is more relevant in S/L than in the real world. In the real world at least those businesses that play the line too close get called out for it whereas in S/L they are a protected class that at the end of the day hurts old and new customers alike as well as the legitimate creators and developers who do their best for their customers.
Yes people have the right to run their businesses however they please even if they decide to engage in shady practices and/or be indifferent or outright hostile to their customers. They shouldn't be surprised though if their reputation and sales plummet as people discuss what they don't like about such businesses.
But the constant complaining about the "Mod/No Mod" issue and now the way a creator states or does not state permissions on a product is just whining.
No, it isn't whining for people to discuss what they don't like about the way a business conducts itself. Thank you for revealing how you think of customers in general.
What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?
I haven't had any problems. If the item listing is unclear about whether it is mod, and mod is a dealbreaker for me, then I don't buy it. Or I look up the maker and ask them.
Creators don't owe us anything here...they make stuff and decide to share it or not as they choose. As a consumer, I'm grateful people take time to make cool stuff for my entertainment.
Thank you for revealing how you think of customers in general.
Those who genuinely know me and the way i conduct business, know how i "think about my customers". I have a well established business and will go the extra mile for my customers. I also work for other people in-world and provide service and support for their businesses. Just because my opinion differs from yours and others and i am not afraid to voice it, does not mean my own business practices fall under the category of "shady". I do listen to my customers and always will. I am just getting tired of people always ganging up on creators and their decisions like we are the evil ones. We are people, we make mistakes, we learn every day. But the way some people think they need to call us out is ridiculous. Yes, there are shady business people in SL. There always have been and always will be. I am just done with the constant creator bashing.
ExpandI know, a bit of a rude title, but i did not know how else to put it.
In the recent... one or two years in SL of the 14 I am apparently in here, i noticed that an absurd high number of creators not only sell their items No Modify (which i in itself find absolutely stupid) but - which i find far worse - refuse to list the permissions of the items they sell anywhere on the package. And while im sitting here since half an hour, trying to find out if a certain item is modify, i am also at the same time wondering...
Why the heck are we okay with this?
I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying? I don't agree to no mod and you might see that differently. Okay, fine! But can i at least be informed about the specifics of the stuff i put money in for, thank you very much?
I don't see any kind of movement against this, even tho everyone should be angry at that. In fact, it should be against the rules. In reality thats what we would call "buying a pig in a poke". And by now it seems to be a vast majority of clothing and accessoires related items for those big bodies that just don't tell you.
I want to mod my stuff. Either making my own texture for something, turning a piece invisible or just to link it, if some complex Roleplay-Outfit that also needs me to equip two huds and stuff makes me hit the attachment limit in day and age of extra heads, ears, hair, jewelry, eyes, piercings, a body, hands, feet and then some... I don't get whats so difficult in writing NM/C/NT or something similar on your product page. It can't be too much to ask...
What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?
If you read this forum often enough, you'll see that a LOT of people (including myself) already do see it this way and the subject comes up here quite often. I used to refuse to buy no-mod stuff but then I stopped because it eventually became impossible, I wasn't able to buy anything because it was ALL no-mod. You can bet that 100% of all clothing that has no perms listed is Copy/No-mod/No-transfer. You don't need the perms listed on the vendor. That's 100% what they will be, guaranteed.
I don't think it's necessarily arrogance though, I think it's partly a cash-grab (pay for the fatpack, not just the white one) and partly a fear that users will discover that the seller is using full perm templates and never actualy made the thing in the first place.
Thats why Demo-Demo-Demo is so important. If the thing isn't 100% perfect for you straight out the box, if you can't wear it exactly as-is without changing a texture or making a piece invisible or linking it to something else, don't buy it at all. You will NOT be able to modify it in any way whatsoever.
This is the reason why I am far more likely to buy full-perm kits these days. I don't sell them, I don't have a store, but buying a L$500 or even a L$1500 fullperm kit with infinite colour/texture/modification possibilities is waaay cheaper than buying a L$2500 no-mod fatpack of 10/20/30 options. My only exception is sellers who do use templates but texture them well and market them sensibly - a fatpack priced at say L$200 to L$400 with a big hud and good range of colours. Hilly Haalan being my favourite - she is one of the few sellers I will buy at "full price" from, even knowing it's all no-mod.
I do think the trend is very slowly begining to reverse. Mesh body sellers are already getting the message; some of the newest bodies (Kalhene Erika, Ebody Reborn and Belleza Gen-X) are now mod. KC Shoes (which are already really well-priced) switched to mod for all their new releases about a year ago. I buy from a couple of niche sellers which not only make their stuff mod, they even include UV maps and sample textures so you can make your own.
I, for one, often buy full-perms stuff for my own outifts, just because I can use whatever fabric pattern I feel like wearing that day. I'd gladly pay double the price of any fatpack just to be able to put my own textures on what I wear inworld. I can make and rig my own mesh clothes, heck, I even uploaded my own custom mesh body once, and it looked awesome, but it's a lot of work to make things and rig them, and I have no qualms about paying someone else for their time if I think they made something beautiful and I want to wear it.
And a lot of our resident content creators do far nicer design and execution of fashions than I have the patience or skill to do myself. I have loads of respect for that kind of artistry and hard work.
I realize it's a thread about creators not marking things properly to avoid customer disappointment, and has veered off into venting a bit about not being able to mod things in general, but I had to blurt that out, just because I forgot to mention it earlier.
If I buy FP meshes, it does tempt me to sell my modded versions of them (within the limits of the user license agreement, of course), but mostly it's just for my own sense of control over how various parts of my outfit match each other. I'll happily buy non-transferable, moddable versions of things and pay handsomely for them. It does take work to make and rig mesh clothing, and that work should be worth something, and even more so if they're kind enough to give customization options to those who aren't fortunate enough to have the skills and/or tools and/or time necessary to make the base meshes for their outfits themselves.
Even when I decide to make things for myself, I still buy other creator's takes on them so as to support the creative community while finding inspiration for my own personal take on something. I've been known to buy every version of a thing before deciding I want to make my own. I feel it's at least fair to everyone else that way. Plus, my wardrobe is THE BOMB DIGGITY as a result.
Anyway, just my other two cents.
Edited by PheebyKatzCreators don't owe us anything here...they make stuff and decide to share it or not as they choose.
If they give it away for free, then they don't owe us anything. If they accept L$s for their work, they get customers, not acolytes.
I had a bad weekend with SL merchants so I'm not feeling especially generous to "creators" right now. Multiple incidents, but the one that really got me wasn't about no-mod (other were, see below). The winner of "Arrogant Creator of the Week" was when an alt discovered that a new product's HUD did nothing at all, so he tried to contact the creator, whose profile said "please use the proper channels" and listed a couple customer service representatives. So that's who was sent a report, then more detail and a workaround, then finally a pinpointed bug and the fix the script needed (this despite the script being no-mod, hence invisible). The win? Here's the CSR's response:
I am the incorrect person and you don't have to be so ignorant but ok, seems to be the global climate at the present moment. so guess we must deal with it I will pass on your comments. Next time I would suggest "This doesnt seem to be working correctly can you please have a look at it." would probably suffice. Thanks. have a wonderful day.
What a peach! 🙄
An unrelated incident that did involve no-mod was a complete mislabeling of a product as Copy+Mod. Turns out there was another product on offer that was modifiable, although the ad was for both products and made no distinction. There was a demo, but I figured the reason it was no-mod was because it was a demo. The product, though, was rigged for just one body (not mentioned on the ad board, and not a body I use), whereas I thought it was unrigged mesh I could modify. (It doesn't flex with joint motion or anything.) Had I tried there'd be no way to move the attached demo, so that would have revealed it was rigged, but I had no reason to test that. Anyway, once I understood all that, I didn't make a fuss; it wasn't all that much money anyway, and a relatively new brand. At least there was a demo; it was misleading, but unintentionally, I think.
There were other examples of "Creators Behaving Badly" too, but on a positive note, a few more who have overcome the "counterfeit" superstition hysteria and offer modifiable clothing:
- Caboodle
- FACS
- Hotdog
- lock&tuft
- Malediction
- Matova
- Noche (fatpacks)
- Semller (fatpacks)
- Sintiklia
- Thirst (fatpacks)
Some have been modifiable all along and some recently came over to the good side so may have back-catalog items that lack Mod perms, so as always check to be sure. Also I'm not sure I've flagged all the fatpack-only cases, or even which creators offer non-fatpack products at all.
If they give it away for free, then they don't owe us anything. If they accept L$s for their work, they get customers, not acolytes.
Free or paid, both are customers. In neither case does the maker owe me anything besides what they sold me. If I read the description wrongly, or didn't bother to demo or check with them first before buying, that's on me. If I couldn't reach the creator (and there are shops out there where the creator is long gone) and I bought it anyway, again, that's on me.
That said, if something is clearly broken, it's reasonable to ask for it to be fixed. I bought an item with a broken HUD once, and I politely informed the maker the HUD wasn't working. She fixed it for me within minutes, though I didn't hurry her. We don't have to be "acolytes" but being courteous sure doesn't hurt.
That said, if something is clearly broken, it's reasonable to ask for it to be fixed.
My, that's generous of you toward the whiny nuisance of a customer...
No, it isn't whining for people to discuss what they don't like about the way a business conducts itself. Thank you for revealing how you think of customers in general.
Discussing isn't whining, that is totally true. But the OP tossed in a few extras that were totally not needed for such a discussion, IMHO.
Like the title of this thread for instance.
My, that's generous of you toward the whiny nuisance of a customer...
hmm? I was the customer with the broken thing.
ExpandThere were other examples of "Creators Behaving Badly" too, but on a positive note, a few more who have overcome the "counterfeit" superstition hysteria and offer modifiable clothing:
- Caboodle
- FACS
- Hotdog
- lock&tuft
- Malediction
- Matova
- Noche (fatpacks)
- Semller (fatpacks)
- Sintiklia
- Thirst (fatpacks)
Some have been modifiable all along and some recently came over to the good side so may have back-catalog items that lack Mod perms, so as always check to be sure. Also I'm not sure I've flagged all the fatpack-only cases, or even which creators offer non-fatpack products at all.
To add to that list just to give creators who leave the mod-box checked some much-needed love:
- Kaithleen's
- Neve
- Meva
- Justice (fatpacks)
- Asteroidbox (fatpacks, I think)
@Qie Niangao Thank you for that list - also @Cinos Field. They'll get more of my and my wife's custom. That's what we need... lists of the sensible sellers.
We would both buy a lot more if things were modifyable. We've stopped buying a certain hair brand since they stopped having mod perms some time ago. Shame - it's really good hair. We used to buy a lot and we've often tinted it a little manually, or made other adjustments (materials etc) to get the most out of our purchases. No longer.
Edited by Rick DaylightTo add to that list just to give creators who leave the mod-box checked some much-needed love:
- Kaithleen's
- Neve
- Meva
- Justice (fatpacks)
- Asteroidbox (fatpacks, I think)
To add more still, there is this thread specifically geared to modifiable clothing:
hmm? I was the customer with the broken thing.
I was responding to how your post seemed to say that the "maker owes you nothing", but that if the thing you purchased was literally sold broken, you'd just be "reasonable to ask" for it to be fixed.
Yes, you should be polite about things, and yes, sometimes things are broken by accident or unforseen changes, but if someone's selling something I'd be inclined to say that they should fix it. Or at least allow you to fix it yourself.
You are right, there is a definite move away from modifiable items and to more customer hostile things like anti rez scripts too.
I really do despise the anti-rez scripts. They serve absolutely no purpose other than give the creator a false sense of security. They are trivially easy to bypass and out of decorum I'll not mention the standard land/security feature (no tricks, no hacks, no exploits) that makes this a reality. So, all an anti-rez script does is needlessly add to my script count and load on the system. We tend to be script heavy as it is anymore and i don't see the need to add to that bucket with a useless script. Now all that said, I don't go around making a habit of trying to bypass a so called security feature a particular designer decides to use; I can respect their implicit wish, after all my desire to rez a wearable is very narrowly situational (more below), and if I know a particular creator uses this type of script, I just don't buy from them.
For me, it depends on what the item is. I insist on No Mod for all of my household and landscaping items. I don't usually care when it comes to clothing as I'm seldom ever interested in making changes to those items. I prefer No Mod for hair, but I will accept it as long as I get a demo that shows it fits well and as long as there is a supplied color/tint that works for me.
See, I prefer for decor/landscape items to be Yes Mod. I like linking things together. Sometimes it can lower the overall LI a group of items by making them a linkset. It helps me adjust and move things around, when I pack things up, I can put them all back in one step. Also, once set if the landscape/decore things have scripts and they don't self delete the scripts, I can pull those on out too.
I actually don't mind it with hair either. Often enough its just rigged anyhow, so there is no real point? And even if its mod it often is one big piece so even try-error texturing to delete bangs and all is not... really vaiable but thats fine. I noticed that many hair creators oddly enough do MORE modify recently or have, like... the bangs on the front be seperated items.
On clothing, not so much just hair, but if multiple items are rigged, and I'm always going to wear them as a set, I can link the various parts and then instead of 2, 3, 5 attachment slots taken up, it's just one. Everything goes to where it needs be. I don't often hit the attach limit but sometimes, there are days and special outfits where I get very close, especially if I have to have a few HUDS on. But to be fair, those are special case scenarios and don't come up often, but I like having the option. I go out of my way to get Yes Mod clothes, but don't fgo out of my way to overtly shun No Mod, but if i have a choice between two similar items (clothing or decor), the mod status will be a deciding factor.
and a final thought, even no-non rigged things, like earrings, I can link and with a little patience and editing instead of them taking up two slots, I have a pair that take up just one. it makes life a bit better. I mentioned above that I'm not in a habit of regularly rezzing wearables, but the exception is to link things together, to pull out scripts, to maybe add/change a script (autohide).
Edited by Anna Salyxtypo fix
I think in this day and age, some 13 years after the original Copybot scare in SL, creators who actually make and sell their wears commercially aren't burdened with the misconception that putting an item on "no mod" means it is "less" vulnerable to Copybot. While the mechanism of copybotting has changed since 2005, it doesn't matter what permissions are set.
I think there are three other reasons:
1. Fear of increased customer service from people who don't copy the original, mod it, and then complain when it turns ugly. Sure, they could re-deliver it, but maybe not, not everyone has a redelivery terminal; sometimes they are strangely hard to find. In any event -- anything to reduce CS.
2. Yes, indeed, creator arrogance, which is based in creator insecurity as we all know. What if someone modded a creation, *and made it better*?! The horror! Or what if they mod it, make a mess, and go around then ruining the rep of the original creator? That seems like a compelling reason -- except many people, including myself, simply won't buy things that aren't on mod, the end. If I really, really want it for some reason, I will then take a star off the review just for that no-mod factor.
3. Copybotting isn't the only problem a creator faces. When something is on mod, you can examine it better. When it doesn't have an anti-rez script in it, you can take it out and look at it, not on you, but inworld. Sure, you can take off scripts on the land to defeat any anti-rez script. But it's that examination "in the round" off yourself that I think is also a factor. It's not just brute copying -- it's "inspiration" -- in a highly competitive and repetitive world where someone *will* make a better mousetrap than you, always.
That's what it seems like to me, but I never hear anyone mention it. Maybe it's because they use pose stands and think that's the same as taking it off and examining it. I don't feel it is. I may be in the minority. But I don't think that anti-rez scripts are used because people still cling to the idea this "defeats" Copybot -- I think that again, they don't want people rezzing things out that they should wear, especially if high-prim, and they don't want that Consumer Gaze.
I will say that anti-rez scripts of the type that prevent food and other deliverables from being casually stolen do have a place, and do in fact work "well enough", despite the completely vicious and unjustifiable beat-down I took on this subject from a certain fabulous scripter. I need to blog about this again.
I really don't think Copybot drives people any more.
I think insecurity does.
And it's not just about copying, it's about being modded and looking better, and the "inspiration" that comes from the ability to mod that then constitutes competition.
We live in a terribly restrictive and horribly oppressive Ren Faire in SL, which a horribly feted guild class. I think many understand this isn't a "conspiracy" theory any more, but a report.
Edited by Prokofy NevaExpandI know, a bit of a rude title, but i did not know how else to put it.
In the recent... one or two years in SL of the 14 I am apparently in here, i noticed that an absurd high number of creators not only sell their items No Modify (which i in itself find absolutely stupid) but - which i find far worse - refuse to list the permissions of the items they sell anywhere on the package. And while im sitting here since half an hour, trying to find out if a certain item is modify, i am also at the same time wondering...
Why the heck are we okay with this?
I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying? I don't agree to no mod and you might see that differently. Okay, fine! But can i at least be informed about the specifics of the stuff i put money in for, thank you very much?
I don't see any kind of movement against this, even tho everyone should be angry at that. In fact, it should be against the rules. In reality thats what we would call "buying a pig in a poke". And by now it seems to be a vast majority of clothing and accessoires related items for those big bodies that just don't tell you.
I want to mod my stuff. Either making my own texture for something, turning a piece invisible or just to link it, if some complex Roleplay-Outfit that also needs me to equip two huds and stuff makes me hit the attachment limit in day and age of extra heads, ears, hair, jewelry, eyes, piercings, a body, hands, feet and then some... I don't get whats so difficult in writing NM/C/NT or something similar on your product page. It can't be too much to ask...
What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?
You should just buy full perm items. Most of the items "creators" (esp clothing ) sell is full perm items anyway. They do not want you mucking around finding that out in their product. (maybe) Also, you do not need to link worn items..
Most textures are created with a UV map, not some texture you got online so applying your own texture kind of makes the object look bad, and clicking on it people see who the creator is and think oh man they suck... so to play devils advocate..
Usually permissions on items are displayed, if there is no indication then move on... there are thousands and thousands of creators creating the same thing.. IF you find a unique item then "ask" the creator for a mod, usually you won't get a "copy" version then.... so if you muck it up your mucked.
It is their product, they an sell it anyway they want.
