FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes

09/15/2022

My Conversation with Casper (2015)

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

Fl_image

From Casper Warden's inworld avatar profile.

So this is actually a very old interview from 2015 (apparently November 17, 2015) with Casper, owner of the CasperTech vendor systems which has just been acquired by Linden Lab. And as far as I recall, it came AFTER Casper put me in all his teleporters in his "sample ban list" (which I wasn't aware of at the time). Somehow I failed to publish it all this time, not through any fear of reprisal, as that actually had occurred BEFORE as far as I reconstructed at the time, although I can't be sure. That is, Casper is capable of banning someone in SL from ALL purchases from his vendor, and that's why I bother with challenging him, for the sake of the nature of the Metaverse we all get. I think it's relevant to the current debate about this latest GOMing by Linden Lab.

Dear Casper,

I have two questions about your rentals system.

The first is whether the system can be set up so that a bank of rental boxes or meters can be placed in one even small location, and refund of one won't issue a call that will refund all the others, too, i.e. are they on separate channels or can they can be configured so the script does not act upon the other boxes?

No doubt that issue is solved by being web based but it sounds like there's an option for old-fashioned inworld-based terminals as well. But I have a much more important question.

The reason I don't like web based third-party rental systems is because they give the owner of that system ENORMOUS amounts of customer information and economic information about Second Life business people -- essentially everything that used to be public knowledge before the Lindens began hiding it, i.e. number of avatars who pay more than $1 per month or $5000 per month, etc.

If all the major stores and vendors and rentals agents pipe all their transaction information into your web site, it's easy for you at the back end to harvest it all.

Then you know which stores or rentals agencies are doing well and which poorly; what the revenue is of each one; even their customer lists and granularity right down to the products that sell or don't sell. You can harvest all this not only to make economic decisions to position yourself above others in the controlled virtual market of SL; you can exploit it even more directly, for example, if you saw that the rental trends were trending toward "4096 beachfront" or "2560 snow" or "homesteads only, no private islands" or "this mesh hat not that sculpty hat" you could invest in those areas on your alts.

The other thing you'd be in a position to do is sabotage any competitors, make preferred groups of customers, etc.

I don't mean the problem of spamming with customer lists. That's crude and I don't see any evidence you do that. I mean the harvesting of customer information that other people obtain through their hard work and connections and business expense, that you can harvest merely by switching on an automated scripted object to your website. You would have more power than the Lindens, as they aren't efficient and don't have a system that runs as well as yours does especially on the Mainland.

Now, you can dismiss this question as paranoia or the obsessions of an infamous SL crank, but they aren't trivial. Some of this behavior I describe I have seen exactly in Hippo Rentals which is why I have never used them and other companies no longer in business like Gigas.

The answer can't be "I don't look at the customer and transaction information of all my clients using my products because I don't have time for that/it's not practical/it's not interesting/who needs to know about your crappy rentals/vendors."

The answer I'd expect is "Yes, that's a problem, but that's why...customers can encrypt their data on my system (not likely). Or "Yes, I can see your concerns there, that is a lot of power over a toy world and game economy, but you see, I don't misuse it and my customer base only grows. The hedges again my misuse of this power and information are.... (and here you name the hedges -- and PS, "Prokofy's Blog" can't be one of the answers, but should be.


Prokofy Neva
Owner
Ravenglass Rentals

Hi Prokofy

Thank you for your notecard. You have asked some very good questions, and ones which I believe anyone
should ask before they make an investment - not just of money, but of information.

One problem I face with answering you, however, is that you seem to have clearly dictated what you want
the answer to be, and what the answer "can't be". I don't believe this permits room for an open,
honest and pragmatic answer, and so - with respect - I will be disregarding this.

The answer to your first question is "Yes". The rental units and boxes operate independently of each other,
the channel is randomly chosen when the rental unit is touched.

Now to move on to the issue of privacy and integrity.

Firstly, and for the record, we don't perform any analysis of the information we hold, with the exception of:

- The statistics tools made available to merchants as part of the service, and..
- A monthly, normalised metric which aims to monitor the performance of Second Life as a whole,
made publicly available at https://caspervend.casperdns.com/economy.php. [This link no longer works, if it ever did, and is not archived at the Wayback Machine]. [Now this link appears to work, perhaps because I reported it not working. I don't see that it really shows  you that the economy is improving; it shows you that prices are higher, and that's related to higher cashout costs and higher tier costs. That is, it's like computers: 50 years ago, no household had to spend what amounted to the cost of a used car or some other big purchase ($1500-2000) on a communication and entertainment device; today, that cost is folded into every family budget. So people spend more now on mesh heads and bodies, and perhaps then those merchants make more money but they face increased costs. Economies are not only made up of what merchants; you have to look at the consumer basket, government subsidies, etc.]

Of course, I know that this isn't what you want to hear - you have no reason to believe me. So, I suppose the
question becomes a matter of risk assessment.

There is, naturally, a risk/benefit trade-off which always applies whenever you engage a third party service
provider. When I am evaluating a new platform in which to invest my information, I generally ask myself..

- How valuable is the information I'm giving them?
- How could the information be misused?
- What are they selling? Am *I* the product?
- Are they affiliated with any competitors of mine?
- Is there a conflict of interest?
- What recourse do I have in the event of a worst-case scenario?

The very fact that you sent me this notecard implies that you believe there is a risk to your business.
Does the potential risk outweigh the potential benefit that you would receive from the services we provide?
If so, then in your case, perhaps you should consider developing a solution in-house.

However, I would suggest that the information perhaps isn't as valuable as you believe. For a start, actually analysing
the data to achieve a competitive edge is a gargantuan task. I would need to profile each and every product
by each and every merchant using my system. I have no data on market sectors, promotion, product development,
customer opinion, etc., all of which would be pretty important for any meaningful analysis.

If I can see, for example, that your rental business is performing 20% better than company X. Or 10% worse than
company Y. Does this allow me to launch my own rental business and actually compete with you? No, not at all.
There are so many other factors involved, I don't believe this is realistic.

You're right that I could analyse market trends and "invest" in those areas. But investment alone does not make a
successful product - ESPECIALLY not in Second Life. Knowing what market sectors are popular may be beneficial, but
it's hardly a deal breaker.

Regarding harvesting customer information - having the name of a customer doesn't immediately give me a rapport
with that person, any any attempt to market to them would be blatant. The truth is, MY OWN customers hold the most
commercial value to my business. My products are targeted at creative minds, entrepreneurs, merchants, designers,
artists. Thinkers. Who could ask for a more ideal client base?

That's not to say that the information I hold couldn't be abused. Of course it could. Which is why I actively encourage
you to make your own risk assessment based on the information available.

Some factors which may be worth considering - we are a real company, CasperTech Ltd registered in the UK, and are accountable in the real world for our actions regarding data privacy. We have an excellent track record, with tens of thousands of loyal customers.

Thanks for getting in touch, and please let me know if you have any further questions.

It's certainly refreshing to see somebody who considers such issues seriously. "It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you." ;)

~Casper


P.S I would personally be interested to hear how Hippo were able to abuse the information they hold, as you claim. It seems to me that it didn't do them much good commercially.

 

As for Hippo, they had numerous scripts inside their rental boxes, which engendered a lot of mistrust that they were piping more data than they needed to be, including proximity data. Hippo was also in the land buying and renting business himself, which made it questionable as to whether he could use information to compete with his own customers.

When he was first starting out, he rented a stall from me at Ravenglass Hall on the docks. And he was a fellow land owner in Brown as I recall. And one day while searching my own listings, I saw that he ran a search ad that spouted "Raise the rent at Ravenglass with one click!". Now what the HELL was that all about? He was not just using my business name, which he already got some advantage of by being in search on my land; he was implying that I regularly hiked the rent with a flick of a switch -- which I never did. Why give MY business as an example? I mean, who DOES that? That was among a number of exposures I had to the nature of Hippo, who was universally despised for various reasons, and who was essentially put out of business by Casper who obviously studies markets THAT much.

I will write another post about what I think of Linden Lab's acquisition here. But I gathered from this conversation and other hearsay that for him, SL was small potatoes compared to his other web business(es) and that it was maybe even run at a loss, as a "proof of concept" or to "get in the door of the Metaverse early" or something like that. And here we all are.

It's curious Casper has nothing about this acquisition on his web page, nor does the UK company register have anything. Could this announcement have been hurried? Is something in the LL software going to change that will disrupt Casper and the Lindens thought the best way out of this problem was to buy the company?

 

Posted at 11:44 PM in FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes, Linden Lab, Virtual Business, Virtual Estate, Economy, Land | | Comments (0)

08/10/2022

Failed Linden Mainland Experiments Over the Years - UPDATED

July_114

Riderless pod spamming a Heterocera sim.

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

Jack Linden: "thankfully there will always be a mainland. v"

The nearly 20 years of Second Life's history are replete with ambitious experiments on the geographically-contiguous Mainland, both by Lindens and residents, and I think it's safe to say many of them ended in tears because of unintended consequences ("the tragedy of the commons") or damages to this or that legitimate group interest. 

There is always the inherent problem of the Lindens' contiguous Mainland and its many discontents and support tickets, way more than the minimal Linden staff can handle, and their seeking recourse in favoured resident volunteer groups who are not particularly deserving and generally serve themselves and their friends. This ultimately causes the Lindens to disband them or cease rewarding them.

The Linden Greco-Roman style palace in Tenera is a particularly vivid example. (I have my Silva Beach community across from this build in Sylvia). It housed the 8,000-strong (!) group of selected resident volunteers, managed by Lucy Linden, who were used as volunteer mentors and translators into "foreign" languages and other chores. It was essentially abandoned as a group and this Linden left the Lab, but not before one enterprising more-equal-than-others volunteer used the advantage of the land group settings to build a home in the sky for himself and his friends, not noticeable unless you happen to scan all levels of the sky regularly as I do as a nearby landlord. It's a gorgeous build and I'm for leaving it exactly untouched and for NOT reviving any volunteer groups of this nature.

This week, the ambitious owner of Operation Mainland (operation! like a war!), Feorie Friman, rolled out yet another project, involving a "subway in the sky" or metro of TP centers across the grid to "help explore historical Linden builds." It's actually another resident who has quietly and efficiently catalogued and promoted those old builds -- Aethelwine on the forums, who is also involved in the sailing community -- but Feorie is poised to coopt all that labour now into her "Operation" and "drive traffic" to old Linden builds in the hopes that, as the now-deleted thread revealed, she will be allowed either to put her stamp game in them (so far she has been blocked as the Moles favour only the BBB) or even be allowed to "repurpose" them or help in deleting and improving others. I personally don't want to play with empire-builders who work with forced and deceitful cheer combined with blatant suck-ups to Lindens (she may have mercifully removed her off-key singing tribue to the Moles) and other powers-that-be in this small pond to buff a resume that it is hard to know where else may be used. I originally took this in better faith than I do now -- I have withdrawn all my sites from "Operation Mainland" and blocked Feorie inworld.  I note that the Lindens leave her provocative and deceitful post up about what Patch Linden allegedly said about "repurposing Linden builds" but removed all my content. I do get how it works. The only way to win the game is not to play at all.

So the "subway" follows her other ambitious projects, some of which are neglected (like the stamp game, which never got Mole love, and is now sprawling and hard to follow), and others which outright failed, like the plan to buy up and "beautify" abandoned land for $1/m, and flip it as a completed "community" for slightly more $$, which didn't work because people can do this themselves for less and with less overstuffing of landscaping to save prims. Having failed to get Mole sites in her stamp game, Feorie ambitiously bought into expensive Bay City, the urban enclave built by the Moles and populated with their best friends, whose land is among the most expensive in SL. It's not clear to me that she has been lovingly received there by Maryanne McCann and the other worthies, but like draws to like.  Aggressive persistence can pay off in SL.

In recent weeks, she and other Bellisseria royalty launched an ambitious Linden-loved NatureCon, building on her recent funding (or only management of?) the Corsica South Coast venue Glastonbelli in collaboration with Bellisseria. This may or may or may not fall into disuse -- the history of Corsica Coast South, formerly Campbell Coast, has been tortured with the usual resident high-tier woes and land baron exploitations and is now going through yet another revival (I own some small amounts of land there which I rent out and sponsor some roads there).

Feorie, who was born in 2009 and took part in some little-known building projects for more than 10 years without fame, may tire completely of SL and go back to RL or to another world more suited to her ambitions (this may take awhile to come into being). Or perhaps she will live and thrive and finally obtain that Linden/Mole love she so desperately seeks.

Fortunately for us all, the Mainland is still vast enough and untilled enough that anyone can maintain or start their projects without impingement from these aggressive management types, and that's what I and others do. I maintain my 14 or so sims' worth of land across 55 regions and do not look for Linden love and try to walk around Linden indifference or hostility. I show my appreciation to them by payment of tier which I try to cover from my small rentals business and content sales.  This is still possible; I encourage you to do this all on your own without interference as it can be hard, but very rewarding. I maintain about 3 sims worth of public land open in the SL Public Land Preserve which I believe is the oldest "nature preservation" project in SL and certainly one of the largest. 

At one level, a project like the "Sky Subway" is "useful," and can't likely aspire to grid-wide or multi-continent presence unless the owner has endless resources to buy sometimes highly overpriced land. While focused on "the community" and "historical Linden sites," it *is* on resident-owned small parcels of 128 or higher to show up in search and fit a small "subway" build. Feorie might or might not use it to advertise other aspects of her business or her commerce circle's business and non-profit projects enhancing reputation. That's how SL works and it's fine -- people need to get tier paid and need to draw people to their projects in a world with crippled search and advertising capacity.

But I think it's important to pan out and take a wider look at the history of aspiring grid-wide projects and how they impact the Mainland, and mainly for the worse. It's not merely about this or that person's project. It's about the nascent Metaverse and how that replicates. Philip Rosedale has been very vocal about what the Metaverse should not be and really alone in the wilderness of Metaversal wannabee Big IT -- and that is he is adamant that it is "not for everybody," should *not* be built on blockchain; should have capacity for collaborative builds and a contiguous nature and so on.

I think he himself could focus more on inworld governance and democracy. His own world is replete of examples, some of his making, of the "tragedy of the commons" which isn't just about one person's sheep eating all the grass on the commons but about the nature of the commons itself and how it is governed. It is not merely about commercial interests but the interests of non-commercial reputational enhancement such as to gain recognition and social control in a closed society.

Here is some history.

Generally, the Lindens' formula seems to have been in the last 4 years to throw up their hands at the ills of the Mainland, some of which came from conflict vectors they themselves created, and to drive customers to Bellisseria, their zoned and managed communities with limited types of housing and landscaping and prims. Then, seeing they needed to still get reluctant Mainlanders to take the plunge to Belli if they had premium accounts (or not), they devised the BBB (Bellisseria Bureaucratic Bureaucracy) "Embassy" system, the stamp game, and NatureCon and "friendship" between their legacy customers on the Mainland and their more-resourced "Game of Homes" players in Bellisseria, and encourage more premium accounts and "exploration of the Mainland" as "things to do" is the perennial problem of all Metaversal engineers.

While these all have their pluses, they have decided minuses in that they funnel Mainland traffic to a select few groups and ignore or avidly block others, and they tend to turn the Mainland into a safari, where you make short, safe trips to culled and vetted locations in the hands of a few, and where land, if it is to be bought, is to be managed closely by select groups with restricted activities. 

But some of us do live here.  And not all of us want to stand by the roadside trying to sell our beads and glazed pottery and posing with tourists.

So let me cite some of these historical experiences over the years, not necessarily in chronological order and see if better proposals and outcomes could be sought.

o The Lindens created a "dwell" system whereby visits to people's original venues acquired points which then converted into actual monetary value in the awarding of Linden dollars, convertible to real cash. This quickly became gamed so that the most popular clubs, not necessarily the most beautiful, artistic builds, got the "dwell". On group land, the dwell could either be distributed equally to all members or accrue only to officers. Islands did not yet exist, so this was about the Mainland, and when they did come into existence, few afforded them, so it remained a primarily Mainland experience. The Lindens retired this system when they realized they weren't sponsoring art and education but wet t-shirt contests.

o The Lindens created a reputational point system with plus- or minus-ratings of points in categories like "appearance" and "building skills" which then eventually degenerated into popularity contests where people even paid for the points or held events and point parties where they could collect more points. Neg-rating became a form of griefing. The Lindens first nerfed, then removed the system.

o Now here's where it gets more interesting. The Lindens permitted a Features Voting System separate from the JIRA in which anyone could write in plain text a proposal for addition of features to SL or venues. So these ranged from "a pony in the welcome area," the famous meme directed at Lindens to "give the residents everything they want", to sandboxes or roads in continents where they were missing. This was beneficial and interesting but began to get sprawling and develop duplicates. People could still hold voting parties and even pay for votes, as they pay for "Picks," but the system was big enough to be self-correcting and not reward such gaming (the way the original Bitcoin was supposed to work). Eventually one empire-builder enamored with Capture Roleplay sites named Angel Fluffy (!) decided to take over the system.  Concerted tyrannical forces always appear in virtual worlds to make the Internet be what they want, under their dominion.

So he scripted his own system to scrape the feature voting pages and volunteered to "get rid of duplicates," creating lists for busy Lindens that they were grateful to receive. On the way, he simply removed proposals he didn't like, or as on the JIRA, felt the Lindens "couldn't do," thereby sparking a lot of dissent. The Lindens nevertheless let him "clean up" this sprawling Feature Voting System which they couldn't devote staff time to do. When some groups of people saw how one resident was allowed to change and destroy one system and saw their favourite proposals missing, and began loudly protesting, the Lindens got tired of the forums drama and one day Torley Linden simply deleted the entire system, not even allowing an archive.

 The Lindens created the telehub system, based on Philips admiration of famous urban planner Jane Jacobs. These functioned as planned to enable exploration and shopping and expansion of residences across the grid, but also became highly valued adjacent real estate selling for a fortune on the open auctions, so that only two large mall builders (Anshe Chung and Blue) began to win every high-priced auction because they had the investment of venture capitalists or their own resources. Rentals at these malls were also high priced, yet they democratized the oldbie guild system of stores very far from telehubs (which is why they vehemently protested them), in which older players would give newer creators a corner in their store until they got on their feet sufficiently to buy land themselves and attract visitors.

o Facing protest particularly from oldbies in older locations on the grid about lack of traffic to their stores, usually cloaked as concert about malls as avatar traps and builds that were laggy and hard to get around in, the Lindens built a whole new series of telehubs providing more access at least on new continents, which were more bucolic, with 4096 m2 of grassland or waterfalls instead of concrete around them. They built things like the Juice Bar in Brownlee. As fast as the Lindens could build these, the same two land barons and perhaps a handful of newer ones bought up this land.

o The Lindens sponsored a contest to win a sim without purchase price (then $1500 for islands and more for good Mainland auctioned sims) but with ongoing tier costs (also higher then). Very few residents responded, because of the high recurring fee. The famous "socialism on one sim" experiment of Neufreistadt was launched, as well as an experimental game sim whose owner then got fed up with the limitations of SL's code and performance. The socialism culminated in terrorism by one oldbie who destroyed all her builds made on the sims -- communes in this controlled world often end this way as I can attest to from personal experience -- but the group re-organized and has what is claimed as the "oldest democracy" in SL, although Luskwood is a democracy of sorts, too, and if democracy needs an adjective like "socialist" which is even hidden in this case, you can guess it's not too democratic. One of its other short-lived members more on the right-wing sidse also stirred up havoc on the forums and JIRA before leaving SL.

o The Lindens sponsored a building contest to build their inworld office by Waterhead, won by Adam Zaius' group, not surprisingly. It's one of the builds that other oldbies now itch to remove or refurbish and is no longer used.

o The Lindens promoted the SLRR and various rail enthusiast groups were born, notably the Virtual Rail Consortium in Tuliptree. I had the idea to have a building contest for a mall or park or other public property along the borders of the SLRR to encourage its use. When I publicized the contest on the forums and inworld, it was horribly griefed by people wishing to discourage any "realistic" or "business" use of SL in any way. While the Woodbury griefers and 4chan types were among them, I think there were Linden alts among them. Nevertheless one Linden (Garth Fairchang, who died in RL) gave me a model train to use in promotion. I persisted with the contest, but in the end I had to drop the "railroad" concept and awarded the build to Aliasi Stonebender who created Solar Plaza in Hartwick, and supported a resident-made railroad through 4 sims for a time. 

Meanwhile, the Lindens coopted my idea and sponsored their own contest to build railroad stations along their route, for which they would donate the land (in my plan, residents would tier their own land, but Lindens will forego income rather than let go of their favourites, through whom they hope to rule their empire, like Russians through Central Asians). Some of the most interesting historical builds resulted, such as the train station by Fallingwater Cellardoor in Neumogen.

o Another resident-made railway got a lot of Linden support and support from me in the form of donated land and through passage through rentals land. Nevertheless, this resident blighted the view with huge pillars and overpasses, forcing move-outs and abandonment, and then left SL himself, abandoning all his hard-won land. The Lindens grabbed it and dubbed it "Linden Right of Way," but never built anything on it. For a time, a clack of furry RR fans badgered me to give up land to put another railroad through, and urged the Lindens to re-start their railroad. Michael Linden appeared to mark the "Linden Right of Way" in Grote, but then not long after, was let go from Linden Lab (which was a shame, as he was a leader of the Moles and a long-time and experienced Linden). The furry caucus ranted that Lindens "sold me land" (they didn't; they auctioned some of their own protected land and a flipper bought it, and I bought it from him). To date, the "Linden Right of Way" remains fallow.

o The Lindens originally had two zoned sims, Brown and Boardman, where a 512 could sell for US $100 on the auctions, it was astounding. The same people who were in TSO's old Sim Arts, of which I was a member, Ingrid Ingersoll and Barnsworth Anubis and some others decided to "beautify" these sims and built a lot of Craftsmen-type houses to fit the suburban tree-lined streets. They began a campaign to get Jack Linden to tear down the old, dead palm trees (he removed a lot but not all of them) and re-build the marketplace to be less ugly (it now has wooden stalls that are passable) but he left a few odd old Linden things like Ryan Linden's very early prefab home which is more like a stall than a home you can move around in. The strange SL logo hand that came looming up at you from every mailbox on the properties was removed. It never really looked THAT great and its curious persistence in selling for high amounts doesn't seem justified, given that Brown is General and rents poorly. The Lindens ceased to police a rule they had there that skyboxes could not be put up in the sky (it's General) and never policed much the rule that commerce could only go in the MP area.

o The Lindens built another zoned area called Schermerhorn which also had houses to provide it a better look but residents bought the land and returned them, as they always do. This area was wildly popular and then suddenly wasn't, maybe when Linden Homes were built. The same thing happened at the sci-fi themed adult continent of Horizons, which sells for a fortune and has easements, beaches, and roads that help it look better, and even a "something to do" Linden-made game in the middle, but it has little use. Linden zoning efforts basically failed until Bellisseria, where Moles finally got the right mixture of house styles, easements, and better looking landscaping than in the original Linden Library -- and forced residents to keep homes good-looking by not allowing them to return them, although supply a half dozen or so styles in each theme to chose from.

o The Lindens retained the traffic system from the old "dwell" program, although they retired their leaderboard of the "most popular venues" as these were gamed with "camping" and other rewards system. But at a certain point they modified search to be more random and contain other algorithms not based on raw visitor numbers so that search would be "more fair". Then they began slowly to break search in many ways by incorporating Google Service Appliance. As fast as Lindens changed search, residents would develop new ways to game it and still do.

o The Lindens created a "First Land" system whereby only newbies of X age could buy 512 m2 of land to get started in SL at $1/m. They made postage stamp sheets of this land on new sims, which then quickly filled up with untended plywood and ugly builds. They tried to scatter them around more, but oldbies created alts and bought them. Soon land barons could see the advantage in making a lot of new accounts and scanning sims to buy First Land and flip it, sparking anger and protest on the forums. The Lindens tried cracking down on this, in part with their rule (which they say still applies) of "five accounts only" presumably on one credit card.

o The Lindens rolled out a map in which Anshe and other more alert land barons could see a PTP system was in the making, so they bought up telehub land and this time sold it, rather than renting it. Unaware players, thrilled with land going for sale which had previously been out of reach, bit hard. When the Lindens announced PTP and the impending removal of the telehubs, land barons, especially the bilked newbie barons protested loudly and threatened a "bait and switch" lawsuit as the auctions continued right up to the announcement, despite the plan. The Lindens offered a compensation of $7/m for all telehub land, or the prospect of entering the program for resident-run infohubs. The Lindens then rolled out new sandy coastal mainland, forcing Anshe and other land barons to now spend all the Lindens with which they had been compensated on that new desirable waterfront area, or lose business. The Lindens always win. It's their game. 

o  In the early days, the Lindens allowed 16 m2 parcels by -- imagine this! -- allowing all abandoned land to disintegrate into numerous 16-m parcels. The theory was that people on that sim would come and take only what they needed for a few extra prims. Instead, such land was abought by ad farmers and ads were placed all over, sometimes in the middle of pristine waterfront. Extortionist prices were put on the land forcing people to "buy back the view". One enterprising fellow put "Impeach Bush!" billboards on the extortion-sale land, figuring that liberal Lindens and many residents would not successfully complain about them and get action. Another less "idealistic" ad farmer just put a big happy face on his billboards. New continents began to sell far less on the auctions (back when entire sims were auctioned) because their views were so quickly despoiled. Land owners lobbied for four long years for the Lindens to develop an "ad farm" policy, which they eventually did, although it is unevenly applied today and certain seemingly non-commercial things like obelisks infest the grid even more.

o When the Lindens created the brand-new, pristine "nature" continent (then) of Heterocera, the Moth Continent with builds from the Magellan legend and the famous Moth Temple in Iris, they placed NO telehubs. You could not teleport there by any means and had to fly long distances -- which in those days was difficult across the void sims where sometimes your computer would jam or crash. Players with more expensive rigs would jeer at us newbs who needed "flying lessons". A few enterprising residents such as one on an old "colour" sim with an airplane system and another with a boat on the shore charged to haul residents to the new desirable continent. Some created "log-in lots" such as myself and charged low rents for them so that you could log right in to that continent. But without telehub transportation, sales and commerce languished. 

Forums "nature lovers" complained bitterly about teleport lag and commerce blight and land barons and urged the transportation systems not to be installed. The Lindens went all out, putting Linden trees and grass on Heterocera plots that did not count on your prim count. We were all hurtling toward "All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace" with computer drives turning into spinning flowers, when finally, a group of land dealers who had bought the land on the auctions informed the Lindens that they would dump the land and/or cease buying new land on the auctions -- those paying Linden's bills for this new continent -- if they didn't stop listening to the forums hippie caucus, made up of people who didn't own land in the area. They relented and put in about 4 telehubs only at first -- it turned out that all you needed for a telehub was an invisible prim disc, just like those made for landings on private islands, and you could put any build around it, it didn't have to be those squat brown urban uglies of the earlier era. So they put them within the Moth Temple or at Hyles Swamp. Eventually they added more as they realized "nature" wasn't selling -- people value "nature" tiered by Lindens or other residents but don't want to pay for it.

o Before there were scripted bot avatars, land barons bought up ad farms and deployed scripted boxes to scrape land-for-sale data and therefore get on top of the deals quickly -- then remain at the top of the land-for-sale list by flipping land they grabbed which had been put to sale for fire-sale prices or abandoned (whereupon they would request it). The Lindens eventually banned land bots, and some of these land flippers went out of business, but scripted boxes evidently used for land scanning (although who knows) still persist in many places.

o In the old auction system, all persons who bid on the land, as well as the winner, was visible, and therefore residents could see which land barons were deliberately bidding up prices to keep land prices in general high, and avoid them, and also see which land barons bought up smaller pieces of isolated land on sims to put extortionate prices on them to force people desperate for prims to buy them. Eventually the Lindens changed to a new auction system, based on e-bay (a founding investor of SL was Pierre Omidyar, the e-bay guy), that showed no names at all after the bid although they do briefly leave up a record of the sales so those patient enough could fly around and observe what's happening. It's still a system only a few land barons control. An effort to create resident-based auctions to try to defeat this rent-seeking failed, in part because of land barons disguised as ordinary end users as alts, and buyer's remorse leading to drama and further abandonment.

o The Lindens permitted two driverless vehicle systems, enabling the scripters to send vehicles of various kinds over the grid at will. One of them enabled some of these cars on Linden land to be purchasable, a violation of the TOS, and they also tended to crash and pile-up on other people's land. That person had most of their accounts banned. The other person was more discreet and the cars crashed less and was rewarded with selection of the system also for Linden-run events like SLB. Still, the Lindens didn't permit these driverless simplistic "pods" to spam up Bellisseria, likely because residents there wouldn't tolerate them. On the Mainland, they spam every 15 minutes and nearly 100% of them are empty. Polls I have done whether larger or smaller show significant percentages of residents oppose or don't even know about the pods, which is denied by their supporters.

o A resident concerned about the failure of vehicles at region crossings proposed a system whereby the BDSM viewer called RLV would be used to pick up residents and forcibly cross them at sim seams. This was rejected even by RLV users and the Lindens didn't adopt it, but continued to encourage grid-wide monitoring and proposals for vehicle crossings.

o The Lindens permitted a Grid Survey which used bots to scrape information on new islands, demise of old islands, and percentage of Linden and resident ownership on the Mainland. This was widely accepted as useful and interesting, but the owner faced problems both of a bot nature and of RL time needed for such a project to be constantly updated.

o Surveying the Mainland wreckage they had wrought, while paying their server and other bills, and noting that the revenue was so far less than from islands or even content sales on the MP, yet sucked up the lion's share of customer service time, the Lindens finally decided to build Linden Homes and give the residents what they wanted -- nice homes with predictable landscaping and the view never getting ruined in the commons by neighbours or barons, with plenty of roads and waterways (which are entirely missing on some newer continents, laid out hurriedly by Lindens for quick sales even as past continents filled with blight). This "Linden-Assisted Living," as it was dubbed, didn't really take off until the Lindens made bigger homes with even prettier landscaping in Bellisseria, then Fantasseria and Sakurasseria. 

o Enter the BBB, a resident created RP group aspiring to be the bureaucracy that ran municipal services in Bellisseria which was then blessed to run various public events on Linden land and an exploration system with the stamp game, which included Mole or Linden builds, some new and expressly built for stamps, and some old, to which they were added. Alone among residents, this group now has a home on a 4096 m2 parcel with 936 prims and two rez areas surrounded by water, unlike ordinary mortals with only 1024 and 351 prims, often island. No commerce is permitted as this is banned in Bellisseria -- although very active groups expressly targeting Bellisseria events have enterprisingly figured out that the way to sales through Bellisseria is to create groups and events where freebies are distributed, and then spam people with sales IMs later. The stamps had to be vetted and accepted and a kiosk issued on a discretionary basis, which meant that the appearance of new locations was slower and more controlled. A second resident group appeared (Operation Mainland) with a more democratic system whereby essentially anyone could register and upload a stamp site and provide gifts, with stamps allowed at commercial sites. This quickly acquired many more sites and traffic but wasn't tended as well, had uneven quality especially on commercially-driven sites, and could be hard to navigate if you aren't facile at Google Docs.

o The Lindens endorsed NatureCon, an ambitious event to bring together all nature recreational/explorational groups mainly from the BBB and related circles with LDPW endorsement and participation and a system for build applications and booths which remained closed and at the discretion of the organizers. This event, coupled with the BBB stamp game, places an emphasis on "Bellisseria as premium account ownership for residences, Mainland as exploration and recreation," while steering it away from  Mainland *residences* -- which spawns the need for more customer service and unleashes protests about the blight induced by ad farms and grid-wide would-be monopolists. If you only temporarily visit the Mainland on a controlled tier, what's to complain about? 

o The Lindens tolerated the Get the Freight Out game (founded in 2016) which has deployed miles and miles of concrete trucking terminals across the grid, causing those nearby not to buy or to move out. There isn't any perceptible link between GTFO and LL -- possibly they aren't compliant enough -- and they do not appear to have been "blessed," but let's just say that unlike the breedables space, where there are plenty of other breedable companies besides KittyCats and Teegle horses, there aren't any other transportation games that have ever gotten started. Yes, this seemingly "free game" in which the players tier the land their huge concrete monsters are built on, does have a HUD and add-ons you have to buy to play. GTFO often appears with big ad billboards and near ad farms, and that precise relationship has been documented in some cases with GTFO management but also remains unclear.

For months on end, due to the Virtual Railroads Consortium leader Qie reselling some 16ms I had in fact given to him back in the day to GTFO operatives, I had a giant ugly ad billboard in the middle of the sim next to my rentals. So I built a brick wall on it. Another VCR operative put a "night watchman" with a chair on another 16m2 roadside and kept returning the (invisible) prim on a build of one of my tenants, mystifying him. I finally got Qie who I had always respected and found helpful to stop the specious prim returns, whatever their "encroachment," but the GTFO took a lot longer to get off the sim. It was most definitely the billboard of a GTFO owner, not leader, whose land was right next to their headquarters. There has been a changing cast of characters owning GTFO over the years, and one of the current owners and operators, Famous Dismantled, a fae, claims she is conccerned about 16m2 blight on the old Teen Grid (evidently she means the Sith obelisks -- agreed). 

I also dealt with a witless booster of GTFO on the forums claiming that only "some" of the builds are warehouses when anyone can see with their two eyes all over the grid that MOST of the builds in this FREIGHT game are WAREHOUSES with acres of concrete. The fact that a few farmhouses or parks or whatever are mixed in to claim otherwise doesn't cut it. Again, I'm all for having "things to do" and I don't complain where I haven't bought the view. In Adscita, until I had to deal with Winning Witte's machinations, I turned my back to a GIANT and LAGGY GTFO hulking over the lake there and put out rentals which I ran for a few years more or less happily. But it is a buzz kill. That 2000 regular players in the group get to despoil the view and drive away residential lots for numerous sims across the grid is a key example of "tragedy of the commons". Long ago, the Lindens could have made zoned areas -- beach, urban, mountain, country, off-beat -- as The Sims Online did with naming categories of sims. Then GTFO could go on the urban sim along with all those giant tall buildings that ruined the value of Nautilus in its early days and forced me and tenants out after laying out $50,000 Lindens on the auction for a 1024.  Of course they didn't have the staff for policing zoning, and weren't content to leaving it to the Gladys Kravitz's of SL to AR. Then came Bellisseria, where zoning is built in.

I will likely think up more, and so can you, but you can see the patterns. Monopolists aspiring either to crude money-making schemes -- or more typically, more sophisticated reputation-enhancement schemes that lead to social influence and power -- get the Lindens' ear (within the staff, among residents-turned-Lindens, or residents chosen by Lindens for that "successful failure" combination of "competence but compliance."

Fortunately, entire swathes of Mainland (not to mention the bulk of the grid, private islands) remain out of the reach of the Monopolists and the Influencers, especially in the non-English speaking world, and there are still wild and untilled vistas where you can build your dream. For how long?

 

Posted at 05:48 PM in Bellisseria, FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes, Games, Worlds, Metaverse, Griefers, Scammers, Criminals, Linden Lab, SL Community Affairs, The Mainland, Virtual Business, Virtual Estate, Economy, Land, Virtual Governance, Virtual History | | Comments (0)

07/10/2022

Virtual Verse, Same as the First

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

This is a useful thread from VirtualVerse One to review and more systematically rebut when I have some time some day. I've copied it because they, like the Lindens, disappear content there often.

For one, it helps in making my case that the trans women community in SL, many of whose leaders are on Virtual Verse One now (the old Sluniverse) are utterly intolerant of anyone who changes their gender in any way that they haven't approved of. They are horrid exemplars of totalitarianism. If you think your condo board or your office performance committee is authoritarian, wait until you see these people.

They also curiously imagine that if someone hasn't transitioned in the way they imagine, and hasn't had surgery, let alone cross-dressed in SL, that they must have some psychiatric issue, some "dysphoria," or something wrong with them.

It's amazingly hard to change your avatar's gender in SL for this reason, in any direction. The wall of intolerance, the wall of hatred and harassment from people who themselves say they have been harassed all their lives is just astounding!

In RL, I've given birth to three children, one of whom died, and I have had a number of surgeries over the years for various conditions, some related to my rare immune disease, and I can't imagine anything worse -- for me -- than going for any kind of surgery at all. I've never gone to a surgery, and emerged better off than when I went in. It's always worse. That's just my own personal preferences. We get to have those, right? Or we don't? Even if I had no personal history of other medical surgery, I would never wish to perform that surgery, and that's fine, correct? Or are you medical totalitarians like Mengele and Sudoplatov?

If someone wants to have any and all surgeries to transition from one gender to another  to a gender they believe is inherent (and which I am happy to accept as inherent for them), that's their call. Why would this same set of people get to harass and heckle and bully other people who either didn't make this choice for themselves, or due to their traditional beliefs, can't accept it?  Eventually people with old-fashioned beliefs die out. I don't know anybody reliant on a horse and carriage now. But if you need to hasten their demise and bully them into non-existence, yes, you are totalitarian.

I'm not interested in changing my gender in RL just to have an SL avatar of the opposite gender. Listen to yourselves! Do you really think that is required? Do you really think we are not free?! Why did I choose a male avatar in SL? As I explained for Designing Worlds: because I can. That really is all the reason anyone needs or should require. We get to change our genders in SL. Have you?

But...If you criticize tech bros; if you criticize the open source cult; if you criticize big or small tech (something I had no company doing 20 years ago, but have plenty now), it means you have just lost all your rights, if you ever had them. Criticism of tech -- which has many, many features that are eminently open to criticism -- doesn't mean you are stripped of your right to change your gender or not change your gender, or PS to have privacy in RL, something that all these people feel has always been fine to deprive me of for "higher reasons," namely, my criticism of tech.

If you criticize the high priests of our little world, or the tech world at large, these harpies believe that OF COURSE you have to be hounded, harried, doxxed, and exposed as punishment. OF COURSE. You lose your rights.

Today, those immersed in the transgender movement have a term for this: "transmedicalists". See, there's a term for everything. I personally don't make any of this my cause, when there's been the war in Ukraine for the last 8 years, my more immediate and I think deserving focus. I mean, paragraphs like this have about three too many buzz terms I'd need to look up for me to play:

Maybe I’ve just become more aware of it recently, but there seems to have been a rise in the amount and vehemence of people identifying as transmedicalists/truscum online, which is an ideology stating that people have to experience dysphoria to be transgender, though the severity of the ideology varies, to the extent some people think you have to be binary and want every kind of medical intervention possible in order to “pass” to be really trans. And many of the people who believe this make it their life’s work to harass trans people who don’t fit their idea of what a “real trans person” is — for instance, Kalvin Garrah (a truscum youtuber)’s multiple lengthy videos on gothfruits (a non-binary transmasculine gender non-conforming makeup artist/youtuber) calling him a transtrender.

You would never know from the SLuniverse posse that transgender experience might not be monolithic. 

Of course these authors I'm quoting would never use the term "trans totalitarianism" as I do, but that's how I see it. I could gather enormous numbers of examples of how this has worked in SL, where I first recognized, and on social media, where we can all see it now. Some of them are in this thread.

Under this rigid totalitarian cult, if you once had a female avatar (I don't recall any avatar named "Elizabeth" at all and I don't think one ever existed), why, you are not allowed to have a male one, and you must then "shut up" if someone exposes this. Even if someone produces some screenshot with me in an avatar with the name "Elizabeth," so what? Everybody has alts. I have my name. His pronouns are he/him. You do believe in pronouns, right? Or not? Or you believe some people who don't believe as you do get their pronoun rights stripped away? Then, you are totalitarians.

TORLEY IN WATERHEAD IN 2004

In 2004, I remember going to the Waterhead telehub. I had on a pilot's outfit I believe I got from Cubey's venue. That avatar had a female appearance -- I had a variety of avatar shapes and outfits I had experimented with when I first came to SL -- one African female got enormous attention from the Herald at the time --  but then I picked the male avatars because I wished to do so. You get to do that in SL.

So at Waterhead, I ran into an old friend from TSO and she remarked that I had a female avatar, which I rarely had had in TSO, where my main and alts were male, and I said, oh, yes, that's the one today, but I don't think I'll keep it, etc. Nearby was sitting Torley Linden, at that time Torley the resident, playing Mahjong with another resident whose name I don't recall. 

Torley on her alts, or Cienna Samiam (Cienna with other last names) as an alt of Torley, or whoever that resident sitting with her at that time, would then endlessly invoke this incident as if it were some kind of "gotcha". They would never admit they were a Linden, then or now. They would never admit that they were a friend of a Linden, then or now. They would replay this incident over and over on the forums as if this was some kind of grand expose. 

Imagine doing that. Imagine Lindens being like that (they were and are). Torley is a male who had a female avatar and another RL male who had a female avatar as a partner. THAT was the root of the animosity -- the greatest chorus of haters and totalitarians I've experienced frantic to misgender me are totalitarian trans women in SL.

When she became a Linden, Robin Linden insisted that Torley remove her partnership. (If it were me, I wouldn't have become a Linden then, but people need to work and live.) Soon enough that took a toll on that relationship when she agreed to do so to become a Linden. That person, who, unlike Torley was always nice to me, later married a woman in RL. That vicious Cienna, who made eyeglasses that were about the only ones available in SL and who was immensely popular, endlessly heckled and harassed me on the forums and inworld on the mistaken belief that she had some kind of "gotcha" merely because I didn't choose to reveal my RL gender when I began SL and didn't choose to note that I remembered exactly what incident she was invoking. Later, my identity was forcibly dragged from me by both the Herald (whose editor was mad that I criticized his take on TSO in the New York Times) and by the forums, with Lindens approvingly presiding. I'm going to describe this in more detail soon, it's important.

You can change your gender in SL -- but only if you hang with the posse and obey their rigid, totalitarian rules. I choose not to.

CRITICIZE THE ELITE AND LOSE YOUR RIGHTS

It's helpful to remember why the vicious mob on the old forums, some of whom remain today, decided I "needed" to have my RL identity and gender "outed," something which I always took in stride, "making lemonade out of lemons." I'm not anonymous. You are.

It's because I criticized the privileged insider relationship that some of the scripters, designers, and other kinds of "creatives" and devs had with Linden Lab, a system I called "the Feted Inner Core" or "FIC". I criticized them for obtaining inside knowledge of discounted sims, always obtaining media interviews when the media contacted LL to the exclusion of others, obtaining endorsements for their businesses, winning contests and saying later that it was because no one else applied -- and so on. 

To their credit, later, LL cleaned up some of this obvious favouritism and graft from the early days, when 1/3 of the staff came from the user base so it was a revolving door of insider privilege and commerce circles elevated to staff powers. But back then, these people wanted to get revenge. A Linden falsely told a resident, based on reading my RL name on my account and Googling me (a gross breach of resident privacy for which that Linden should have been fired), that I was on alimony and wealthy and sitting with the box wine all day dabbling on SL. I've never been on alimony and had only modest child support from my partner with whom I have raised our children over the years and I've never bought a box wine in my life.

Other Google witch hunters, or that one, decided I was a journalist who had been fired from a newspaper for plagiarism and announced solemnly to the forums that I was "indicted for RL crime". Of course, plagiarism in academic and journalism isn't exactly a "crime," but it is actionable. But...I have never been accused of, or have been found guilty, of plagiarism.  The problem is that I have a very common name. The people with my exact same name, even including the middle initial, even with the same age and location, have done all kinds of things -- worked for the State Department, worked for other government agencies, worked for Greenpeace or worked in journalism or worked or had very public messy divorces. None of them are me.

EXCEPTIONS FOR THE RULERS

Most of all, I criticized and exposed these people for never getting disciplined on the forums. Ulrika Zugzwang, among the founders of "socialism on one sim" in SL, copied my forum avatar and turned it into a bloody exploded head, and made that into her own forums avatar. Nothing could be done about it. It was "creativity" or "parody". But when I said Aimee Weber's name was "like" a cheerleader's name, one of those people who put little hearts as the dots above their "is," I was permabanned. These children, some of them directly related to the Lindens, were terribly thin-skinned! And still are. The nearly 20 years they've had to grow up hasn't helped one bit.

Today, when friends of the Lindens get to have their virtual wedding in a new community center in Fantasseria, when the BBB gets a 4096 and double prims for their RP game in Bellisseria, when certain businesses are touted in front page videos and blogs and others ignored, causing forums drama, I don't have to explain about the favouritism system at all. If only if were just a favouritism system! If only it didn't also involve selective Governance inaction, and even the enabling of griefing of dissidents who won't worship at the altar of the selected ones, and call out their grift. I think some of you have no idea what it's like to live in a world where you see the Lindens hanging out and partying with people who have constantly griefed you and crashed your sim. 

The other point is that I have never worked for the US government or any government as any kind of "agent" or staff person or analyst. I was a freelance translator and news writer as a contractor for RFE/RL, which is a US Congressionally-funded set of radio stations and web sites broadcasting abroad. It properly has "state media" as a label on Twitter. It was and is a tremendously valued resource. That it was funded by the CIA at its origins in the 1950s, and was closed in the 1970s when I was in junior high school as part of a general whistleblowing on CIA support of various US organizations, is irrelevant to my career today or even 30 years ago. When you work for these kinds of agencies, or Russian state TV as a translator, which I did for a time at a NYC TV station, it doesn't mean you are a government agent. And most of my jobs have been for non-profit organizations, and this is all a matter of public record. I'm not suffering from some kind of angst or nostalgia from "my days as a Soviet analyst" because a) this isn't the kind of job I had -- journalism isn't government analysis -- and because I've always had jobs up to the present related to the post-Soviet space, which of course, has many features that grew out of the Soviet Union.

I wish more of these kids would study the history of the Comintern to understand the origins and methods of their beloved Anti-Fa movement as well.

Weatherwax, who is evidently a failed creator who left SL for a time and now has re-spawned as a live musician, falsely denounced the makers of gatchas as greedy grifters. He got static not only from me, who will be the elephant who never forgets on this one, and partially beat a retreat, and remains a non-entity.

 

THREAD ON VIRTUALVERSE ONE

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Da5id Weatherwax

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I'd escaped for so many years.. but the gacha discussion on the official forums finally got Prok to target me.

Epic meltdown when I laughed at her instead of rising to the bait, earned her a 5-day ban.

Now the dumbass is seeking out places where I've played music in the past and ranting at the venue owners on twitter and other platforms.

I guess my ridicule struck a little snowflake-nerve?

le sigh....
 
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bubblesort

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Prok? Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

I think trolling Prok into a meltdown is a rite of passage in SL. Most of the time you never hear of Prok, but when you do run into her, even if you aren't naturally a troll, it's just too hard to resist messing with her a bit. She just brings out the inner troll in regular people.

Don't worry about the clubs, David. Nobody will take her seriously at those venues. Every time I've seen you, you've put on a great show. No club owner who knows what they're doing will ditch a performer like you over Prok's weird drama. If they do, just tell the FIC about it, that'll show em! LOL

 
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CronoCloud Creeggan

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Da5id Weatherwax said:
I'd escaped for so many years.. but the gacha discussion on the official forums finally got Prok to target me.

Epic meltdown when I laughed at her instead of rising to the bait, earned her a 5-day ban.


I've been using Grumpy Cat "Good" quite often lately.

Gear said:
It astounds me that someone can still be around after all these years, and still be just as insufferable.
Prok is Prok, If I was running LL I'd have banned her from the forum AND the grid years ago....like 2006.
GoblinCampFollower said:
sounds like I'm blessed to not know who the hell this person is...
Prokofy Neva, Salome calls her the Crazy Cat Lady of SL. Hates anyone more successful or popular than her, calls them FIC. Also hates Linux users and MTF transfolk. Don't call her she, he uses a male avatar. I suspect Prok is a self-hating FTM. Prok is one of the few SL users I've WANTED to troll when I see her. Basically I'd call her Comrade and wave around a kitschy Soviet flag that plays the soviet anthem on Kazoo. Not that I've actually done it, I've just wanted to do it.
 
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Romana

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I only know about him indirectly, from forum stuff, but that's enough.
When I was land shopping once I noticed the plot next to the one I was looking at ease one of his.
I noped out of there.
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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CronoCloud Creeggan said:
...Also hates Linux users and MTF transfolk. Don't call her she, he uses a male avatar. I suspect Prok is a self-hating FTM.
ewwwwwwwwww, nothing I can't stand more than people in oppressed groups who think they should be a special exception to their own bigotry... Kind of like gay men who hate lesbians and feminists or immigrants who want to shut the door behind them.
 
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Romana

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GoblinCampFollower said:
ewwwwwwwwww, nothing I can't stand more than people in oppressed groups who think they should be a special exception to their own bigotry... Kind of like gay men who hate lesbians and feminists or immigrants who want to shut the door behind them.
Noted and edited. He may be a jerk, but I'm not OK with misgendering.
Da5id, what did you say that set him off? I couldn't find it. Was it one of the ones that Kristen Linden removed?
 
Sid

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Prok's posts cost an extra mouse wheel a year, only by scrolling by, when not on ignore.
Some of his posts do make sense.
 
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Spirits Rising

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Romana said:
Noted and edited. He may be a jerk, but I'm not OK with misgendering.
Da5id, what did you say that set him off? I couldn't find it. Was it one of the ones that Kristen Linden removed?
Until that one (Prok) directly states that they are - indeed - Trans, you are not misgendering whatsoever.
 
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Abigail Longmeadow

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I am amazed. I thought Prokofy left a long time ago. Maybe he just stopped posting on the forums. I see he is still a land-lord, running Ravenglass Rentals. It is not that easy to run a mainland rental, because you don't have the privacy and control of a private Second Life island.
 
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Katheryne Helendale

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What's his Twitter handle? I feel like having some fun! :shiftyeyes:
 
Katheryne Helendale

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He's not unique to SL. He got his start in the TSO community, pretty much alienating everyone even then.
 
Robert Jung

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The only time I've ever interacted with Prok, was on a walk around Mainland, led by Cubie. Prok didn't say much but was quite civil and quietly participated in the walk.

I didn't understand what was happening then , and I certainly have no more clue today, but it's always been one of my strongest memories , reminding me we can't always predict what will happen in SL.
 
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Noodles

Noodles

At least I tried to try.
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All my interest in with Prok was related to hanging around Woodbury before they got banned. I think Ingot mentioned on her blog once for some reason.
 
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Beebo Brink

Beebo Brink

Climate Apocalypse Alarmist
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Essence Lumin said:
He was banned from SLU. I don't know about VVO.
He was banned from SLU, and because of that, Cris asked that we not discuss Prok in our forums since any discussion was one-sided. Aside from the occasional oblique reference, we pretty much held to that line.
 
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Sid

Sid

Needs another coffee.
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
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Must all have taken place just before I joined SLU.
I only know him from the SL forums since a few months.
 

Posted at 10:42 AM in FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes, Griefers, Scammers, Criminals, RL Law and Governance, Transgender | | Comments (0)

07/09/2022

The Guild in Second Life

Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

379ab10a185a80c5625a7d5dec5acbeb

The Governors of the Guild of St. Luke, Haarlem, 1675 Painting by Jan de Bray 

Meanwhile, there is an entire drama off stage from Walton's small but stratospheric world. And that is the anguish of people selling full perm models who increasingly find that their customers sell their packs "as is," or use them as gifts or hunt prizes, and barely change them, violating their TOS. That sort of TOS held better when the world was smaller and made up more of conscientious designers respecting each other's IP -- and customers in a loyal fan base in groups who helped police their beloved creator's TOS. That era is long gone, really, as much as some people try to keep it alive with endless browbeating in groups. People have left and are still leaving -- Gatchapocalypse forced them out, a problem Walton Wainright doesn't feel as he is selling his fatpacks for $5000 now and they were never his bread and butter. I never recall Walton commenting at all on the vicious debates about gatchas -- I'm sure he feels he is above the fray. Then the sales tax, which Europeans can only shrug at, as they suffered it 10 years ago, welcome to the club -- and the cash-out fees, and -- can you imagine? During SLB19? During Shop 'n Hop? When people buy Linden dollars? $222 million Lindens parked at 241 and not budging for days -- weeks -- on end.

I hope Wally doesn't think the creators who made many amazing gatcha items for years in SL were somehow charlatans and incompetents who couldn't make a living without ripping off the public, but he might well think that (although he would likely not speak of it in public; I'm beginning to see how his sub-tweets work). I think if he, living in the rich West, went and looked in the eyes those people in Eastern Europe, Russia, Asia, and Latin America who made a living this way, he couldn't possibly say that to them -- and their work spoke for itself. The world of gatchas isn't entirely gone, but there are two other areas of the economy that have more attention now, art works (about which I will write later) and full perm models. Where once they were invisible in the events -- no need to call attention to something more people might steal, better to stay within the guild! -- now they have multiple fairs just for full perm models and textures.

FULL PERM MESH MODEL CREATORS ISSUE MORE RESTRICTIVE TOS

At least two top sellers of full perm models recently changed their TOS to a more restrictive one in the last few months due to rampant misuse -- I know because I'm in their groups and I frequently buy from them. Others I see on the MP have followed suit.

They changed the TOS to compel makers to only sell their items for a specific price or higher, and never give them away, or only use them on a limited basis in hunts, and only if they significantly changed the item or incorporated it into a more complex creation.

Obviously, it's very, very hard to police people on what amounts to the honour system of abiding by a TOS. LL does not get involved in resident-to-resident disputes. This set of creators and more pointedly their customers, most of them far from Walton's world, where the events won't allow creators who use models (the customers of these merchants), are really hurting these days. Their business is down, the demands of their customers have increased as more and more people become desperate to try to find a way to make and sell things to cover SL expenses, now that gatchas are nearly depleted as a resource (NextUp and so on simply can't fill the gap).

Some of the FP merchants have more and more turned to selling no-transfer items themselves at large shopping events so that they can compete with the big dogs who scorn this sector even if they might acknowledge the skill of those who make mesh models. A few of the big dogs use the models themselves, imagine, but through building and starring in the posse, they gain respect that others will never obtain -- they are locked out of events that demand participants only sell original mesh.

So in the world of model makers and their customers, creators don't worry about Copybot so much, which is kind of an abstraction -- and Copybotters are not going to waste time ripping a 30L Saturday flowerpot they can't re-sell for hardly anything. Rippers want to get the top clothes, vehicles, gatcha rares, because you can sell them for the most money. Did you ever hear of somebody ripping a lawn chair or a skybox?

You wouldn't have to take the risk to deploy Copybot in the world; you'd only have to befriend a customer of an FP store.

NOT COPYBOT, BUT THE CUSTOMER IS THE ENEMY

FP makers worry about their own customers who steal from them by giving all their full perm items away to their friends and alts, or who merely retexture something to re-sell it and thus essentially take away the business of those full perm model makers. Maybe such model makers are doomed to have to go out of business in the Metaverse, I'm not sure. But of course they are the only way that the untalented and amateurs like me have a way to become creative. Of course, what the top class of merchants want us to do is be gawkers and buyers and shut up.

Over and over again, Philip Linden promised "a watermark" to protect copyright. This evidently wasn't practical or doable but more to the point, the Lindens weren't motivated to care about it. There are the top creators that sell the most and are the most popular. Those people can arrange DMCA takedowns if they want. Why bother with the rest -- the rest who used to be called "the long tail" in a positive way -- a term you never hear anymore?

THE GUILD AND THE RENFAIRE

I think this will end with a guild system, where the Lindens, fed up with drama and protests against them and rampant ripping and Copybot all over town, will say to creators: register with us, give us a driver's license or passport and a form of payment, fill out a form here in triplicate, and wait 21 business days...or 45...or never, as it is at our discretion...and you, too, can sell on the MP where the search works, and don't bother with inworld, where the search doesn't work. Other worlds worked like this -- such as There and IMVU. It's not the norm to have user content scattered throughout the world-- game devs and world platform providers hate it. It means ugliness in the world, and endless trouble. Gamerz endlessly rant on the SL forums about how this engine or that engine is better and SL is on life support. But World of Warcraft doesn't have user content in it. Roblox has ways to make separate games or mods or something, but it's not a world where you can make and sell user content. You can't even get married in Roblox. Sure, a world can look good when the content is all absolutely uniform. Been to Bellisseria lately?

The beauty of SL is that it never had this oppressive and exclusive guild system, that it enables people like my tenants to take a kitty they bred and put it to sale; to take a box they turned into a table and put it to sale; to re-sell a gatcha; to even make clothes that at least their friends in their circle will buy.

There is a cohort of creators in SL nobody has heard of. They are never in the top Seraphim events. They aren't even at Mieville fairs and hunts, which is far more tolerant of the amateur and the mesh-model user. They live in the hinterlands and have breedable auctions far from anyone's event list. They have little stores with funny or cute or innovative items. They aren't the new designers that Walton picks out of the line-up and takes under his wing. He will never see them.

I'm amazed when I find a store with someone making things out of mesh out in the boondocks, and no one has heard of them -- they can't break into the posses of the top 200, the Shop 'n Hop cartel, the ones the Lindens feature in all their videos on the blog. That doesn't bother me or them as long as they are free to thrive and aren't broken by heavy tier, taxation, and theft. It was always my assumption that if you could make a beautiful and realistic-looking mesh item, that you would have the talent to get noticed and be accepted into the merchants' events. Not so.

THE EVENTS RACKET

As the critics of this secretive and exploitative system point out that it's not an open system. It's not a matter of merely paying the steep fees - they start at 2500 but I hear they can be double or triple that amount. I've only seen one event, probably because the organizers were getting desperate, where rental boxes were put in the booths so anyone could pay them and put in their wares. Most events have an exclusive list of designers they cull themselves and the creation of strict rules to filter out the incompetent or unqualified.

One of the mysteries of SL is when a totally unknown person, with a new profile or maybe one only a year or two old, springs full-blown into a top event. How do they get in? Are they alts? Do they just apply? Do they work the networks and go to the right parties? Some of these people appear and disappear astoundingly fast, like comets. They have stores sparsely filled, after selling a lot of expensive fancy furniture. Then they go dark. I guess some people like to experiment with other names and looks? Or perhaps they genuinely are new people, but they can't take the heat and get out of the kitchen.

OPEN MARKETS

I could point out that the way Anshe Chung broke the back of the oldbie Guild -- the Feted Inner Core or FIC as I called them -- that seized hold of SL in the early days -- early adapters, Charter members with free 4096s, strung together on alts into entire sims, designers and scripters with stores in the boondocks where they sometimes let a newbie with seeming talent have a little corner table in their store -- was by creating malls with rental boxes anyone could pay. The prices were high, but if you paid them, you could put out your wares and get more eyeballs and more traffic than those boutiques in the boondocks on the early colour sims. This made them furious, and sparked their campaign to get rid of telehubs, where Anshe and others clustered their malls.

CLOSED STALLS

So I've been in four merchant events, two of which were featured on Seraphim -- which is a massively popular and high-trafficked site whose editors select only designers and events they think fit. Each of these events involves event managers endlessly nagging the designers and trying to get them to show up on time, put out their stuff, and not violate rules meant to tame lag. There is always drama about bloggers taking free packs and not blogging. There is always someone who has a fight about some placement of their booth which they think is disadvantageous.

It is so unpleasant being in these groups listening to this haranguing in the group all day, when you have already followed the rules and done what they asked. The wrangling, not to mention the steep fees, was enough to make me leave one event; another event folded because they got tired of chasing all these divas to accomplish the goal of helping them sell their wares. I have great respect for the people of Mieville, who keep cheerfully putting on events, with great hardship since their Mayor is out on sick leave, and herding the cats that make up that delightful place.

They can't get on Seraphim's feed, however -- the portals to virtual prosperity are jealously guarded. You don't pay to be on the feed; but you have to be accepted by the Guild. They do get on the Lindens' Destinations, however, which helps.

MAKE A VIP GROUP?

My proposal to the Full Perm creators is that they create a category of VIP customer who pays more to be an exclusive group where the members are allowed to use the models in creations that are given away for free at hunts or as group gifts. The problem is that creators who put in their TOS a demand to sell items using their models only for X price (usually more than what the model cost) are merely reducing their customer list needlessly. I personally back away from such creators now unless they have something that seems "must have" for some little egg I'm making.

If they had a VIP group that I paid $500 or $750 to join that would then allow me to use the items in quests, that would bring me back. When I had to gather up 3 gifts for SLB19, I realized that the freebie requirement would kick in with some of these makers, so I culled out anything from any of them from my items, replacing them with others, and if that wasn't possible, discarding that item from consideration. 

Some model makers say they only mean they don't want you to give their pack "as is" as the freebie, even if on no-transfer. But most make it very explicit that you must not use their item in creations given away even with no-transfer, and that they must be sold for X price. This is because of the flood of abuses. I myself have seen how even top creators casually send me a full-perm item they've used in their creation, thinking it doesn't matter if they've paid sometimes a high price for that thing.

THE GUILD RULES?

I don't see how LL can possibly be involved in this sector of the creator economy, but I do wonder if they reach the point of The Guild system, whether they will NOT accept full perm model makers, because it is too hard for them to police IP on the honour method. That is, they actually have the technical capacity to do so! They can scour the servers and find where the FP items are sold by people who didn't buy the kits. They can see where they are given away for $0 or in a giver. They have server logs. We don't. Will they use that power when they get creators to make the tradeoff to be in their Guild -- a privilege that might involve not just presentation of RL ID and possibly even credentials but possibly a higher percentage of taxation than what they pay now (10% on the MP).

The Lindens removed from the MP system an extremely valuable device that consumers could use to keep unscrupulous sellers in check: the ability to comment on positive or negative reviews substantively. (Now you can only indicate whether a review was useful or not). Where once you did not have to buy the item in order to post a comment, on others' comments -- sometimes in self-defense, some times to rebut misinformation -- now that is removed. Thin-skinned divas who don't want any reviews but from their adoring friends didn't mind the comments being nerfed. I imagine we won't have to wait too long til the Linden enable the merchant to remove negative comments. 

When the Copybot and for that matter full perm copying problems grow severe enough, the Lindens will be able to herd creators into the Guild in exchange for help with IP protection -- investigations with their server logs and willingness not must to remove content after a DMCA content, but content their servers prove is stolen -- when a non-IP holder is found selling a cloned item.

Do you know that Google has an automated system that removes hundreds of thousands of videos every day, based on agreements with top copyright holders and simply pro-active automatic searches for obvious key words of the day. This was explained to me personally by a staff person, at an OSCE conference. Google doesn't wait for DMCA takedown notices to limit its liability for litigation, even with Section 230 to hide behind -- not when they face the big guys simply pulling all their content and attempting huge lawsuits (as they have done). We all know the California Ideology led to this situation with Napster and all the rest, but it didn't last. Google takes down the Beyonce copies that aren't from Beyonce's company. There is no reason why LL can't do that on the MP and inworld -- at its little level -- as well with the most obvious cases. Didn't a Linden delete a Coke machine on my property once because Coke was now in SL? Please.

The Lindens could at least on a selective basis (which is how they do Governance now ANYWAY), chase down some thieves and remove the stolen property and assist more in the DMCA process (I don't see that it could be automated). They may already do that quietly anyway, we don't know.

THE POSSE AND THE CASPER BLOCK

But the Copybot problem isn't severe enough -- yet.  The big dogs manage their DMCAs; the little cats have the vitriol and the posses to go chasing into every store of every customer and seeing if they are in violation, in person. Then they can block their purchases on Casper -- this is one of Casper's pernicious features. There is no due process here, of course, and we can't be sure they are right every time they make these blocks.

The biggest difference between the Lindens of yesterday up through Ebbe and the Lindens NOW is that they have a Harvard-trained lawyer among their investors, not merely their staff, and a lawyer who has shown us he is not in adversarial mode regarding the outside world of state prosecutors or regulators, but the unruly user base -- us. Before, it was all geeks like Philip and Mitch Kapor and Pierre Omidyaar, the E-bay guy.

At one time the Lindens had Ginsu Linden (Gene Yoon in RL) who was a nice, quiet man whom Philip once tapped during a RL meet-up in NYC to assure me that Linden Lab would never never never take away my virtual property. (That the Lindens tied forums bans with land confiscation at the time belied this claim was somehow tabled). Ginsu is now running for office in his area in California -- he has a great program and if you live there, vote for him! But that kind of lawyer is long gone. He did the basic work that corporate lawyers do to protect their company, their copyrights, their trademarks, and their ass, in the media, when various types came for them, including some residents like Mark Bragg who sued them for confiscation of land, although he had used an exploit to pay a low fee on the auction.

NOW we have a different kind of lawyer, Raj Date, a politician, a US official and protogee of Elizabeth Warren who served in the US Trade Office. THIS lawyer is ideological and crusading against the user base, which makes it harder to sell this boat in their view, and in a bid to keep the company always ready for inspection -- and sale. It's like when you want to sell a house. You can't leave the kids' toys lying around. From THIS lawyer, we got the ban of gatchas; the end of non-buyer comments on the MP (most likely, though that can't be proven); the sales tax (which they went 18 years without paying) and I suspect, the sudden demand to remove resident logos from SLB18 exhibitions  because they appeared next to LL logos -- but not from Shop 'n Hop, obviously. And there's probably more, I don't know about.

THE GUILD IS THE SOLUTION TO COPYBOT

From THIS lawyer, I think it's reasonable to expect that at some time, his eye will fall on the Copybot and full perm sellers community and their wrangles, and decide that there has to be a registered guild, so that LL knows whom they are protecting, and then protection of that Guild, which is the money maker. (LL always wanted to move away from the land model -- so heavy! All those servers!)

Of course, I have no way of knowing what is really happening, nor do you. Linden Lab's chief counsel is David Kim, a seasoned lawyer with a past resume on bitcoin -- which SL never had and is not likely to get in the near future -- unless his resume means something?

OBSOLETE GROUP BUILDS AND INWORLD CREATOR TOOLS

Recently, when Philip spoke of his "laws for the metaverse," he seem to idealize the group build of yesteryear that never really caught on in SL even in the early days and today is nearly non-existent. He seemed unaware that most creators now work outside the viewers, in Blender and such. They are not pushing prims inworld because they're past all that now, and working with mesh. Philip left before mesh was imposed and took off and I think he just doesn't think about the large divide introduced into SL -- all those who can work in sophisticated programs for designers, and the rest of us who slap a texture on a prim. And what on earth is this screenshot? Is this SL with a lot of debris in the air, or a badly rezzing sim? The ground looks like SL but maybe it's Roblox.

 

How long before we don't even have prims any more? I mean, there's nothing to say that they have to be kept, when no top designers work with them anymore. How many prim constructions did you see at Shop 'n Hop?

I feel sometimes that I am the only one making something inworld, out on the lawn in front of my house or in the commons area of my rentals, and all the annoyances that go with this -- the edit window always opening OVER the object you are trying to edit (pushing it to the side works, sure, but you have to KEEP doing that); the flashing lights we now have in the background in edit mode, etc. etc. 

I'm in a small niche of people making things with prims, sculpties, and mesh, who aren't the mass of users -- who barely can place a house these days and never learn to rez a prim (and why should they?) -- and not the mesh creators of the top and secondary tiers

No one feels any pressure to accommodate us and I'm acutely aware of that.

THE GUILD IS ONLY A PREMIUM PLUS CONCIERGE SERVICE!

When the Guild is created, at first it will only be described as a kind of Premium Plus, a registration process that might even cost money (likely it would have to, given the work involved), and Lindens will tell angry complainers that it is not a "Good-Housekeeping Seal of Approval" at all, oh noes. It will be described as merely a bonus to facilitate copyright issues, let's say,  and perhaps provide technical support, like a souped-up Concierge service. In a way, it will be a sop to creators because LL is not likely -- yet -- to have the will to rein in Firestorm (I'll have a separate post on them.)

Gradually, you will be seen as incompetent if you aren't in the Guild. But you won't be able to get in unless you spent years cultivating Lindens and Moles or unless you know a guy who knows a guy.

"The Guild," Linden execs will tell us wearily, at first in a poorly-attended inworld office hour, and then later in a sanitized blog post, "is not perhaps to everyone's liking, but it's the only way we can be in the Metaverse."

"Oh?" we will ask. "What on earth do you mean?"

"Well, you know how you asked if we had joined that Interoperability Group with big tech, and we weren't exactly invited, and then we sort of schnorred our way in...."

"Oh?" we say, arching an eyebrow.

"Well, it turns out, if we want to be interoperable with these other big platforms -- and of course we do, because it means more creativity and commerce for everybody -- we're going to have to make some changes around here. We have to ensure that all user content is not in violation of copyright. We also have to protect creators' intellectual property as there are more people walking from verse to verse."

At this point we'll wonder privately to ourselves why they never did that before, when so much ripping was going on, but ok.

"....And the only way to do that is to have a registry and a Guild...of sorts. We won't be able to keep the building tools in the viewer -- we're finding they didn't get much use, anyway. User statistics are god, you know! So, we think this represents the best solution to preserve what's so special about SL, and..."

By this time, your eyes may be glazing over, or your ears will stop listening or you will be facedesked. But onward to the Great and Glorious Future!

 

 

 

 

 

Posted at 03:17 AM in FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes, Intellectual Property, RL Law and Governance | | Comments (0)

07/08/2022

Contrary to Contraption

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

Whiskey Priest

Ezekiel at Bassett Town 2022

MY GREAT ADMIRATION FOR CONTRAPTION

I've always had pretty much unadulterated love for Contraption, namely Walton Wainright (faust steamer), whom I have interacted with the most over the years. I happily spent fortunes on their gatchas, I buy a lot of their products, although my name may not appear because I have an alt with artificial limbs who is their greater customer, and another alt in their group that I don't log on to much so I don't have to listen to the inane chatter from the group. I'm not a big fan of bloody metal plates that cover my avatar eyes or metal spiders that attach to my face, I'm a norm. But all the steampunk stuff with gadgets and goggles and wind-up things, especially gramophones, I'm a big fan, just like other norms.

I have spent actually many happy hours listening to the Wild West theme Contraption devised for their Fantasy Faire sim, which to me, looked like a Wild West town from Upstate, New York.  

It does sound like they took a World War I tune and Wild Westified it, but that's Contraption, I like that. I have a lot of those gramophones all over. When I say "hours," I'm not kidding. I put that latest one from Bassett Town in this complicated quest I'm making called "The Engineer's Wife," about a Japanese engineer and his Roma wife who goes missing in the late 1800s in Peru. 

Most of the crowd around Contraption are RP types into all kinds of metal, steam, goth, BDSM, whatever. Doesn't matter. I'm always for people doing their own thing on their own sim and everyone else having tolerance for that. Pluralism. And tolerance. It's the principle by which I run my rentals, where anybody of any lifestyle can rent as long as they follow my simple rules and the TOS, like not going over your prim limits.

MY RESISTANCE AGAINST EXTREMISTS WHO INVADE THE PUBLIC SQUARE

I'm not for masters clinking into the public square with their slaves on chains because I think the public square should not be taken over by ideologies that suppress other people even if they claim it is voluntary. The public square should remain a neutrality of pluralisms with tolerance but not hegemony, not an endless serial of diversities, any one of which can become hegemonic.  The presence of so many safehouses for subs tends to give the lie to that claim but I'm not here to debate BDSM today.

BDSM is the lifestyle that is barely restrained -- to make a pun -- at FF because it is G-rated, but the pagan religion and master/slave ethos is everywhere in RP and it's hard to find RP without it. Most RP or even art sims have a very strong male character with various female characters arrayed around them in slavish adulation, with very harsh practices of exclusion and very intense practices of initiation, like cults. (Their RL genders aren't important.) This is Second Life. This. This is the culture everywhere, in a store, in a game, on a shopping sim, on the forums. And I push back against it because I don't like oppression and PS I don't think "capitalism," which doesn't really exist even in the US is more oppressive than "socialism," which doesn't really exist anywhere either.

So, on the rainbow of SL styles and venues, I see Contraption on the lighter and more fun end of the spectrum -- they don't have pale neckos with deep and bleeding flesh wounds and spiked jewelry every Saturday -- maybe just like every six months. If you don't like the weather at Contraption, wait five days, it will change.

What a contrast to my accounts for work and my RL self, and my SL Twitter account. On the RL accounts, there is debate about transgender and abortion and Ukraine and guns but it is thoughtful and intellectual and there is a spectrum of opinion on the left and left-of-center where I am. On my SL account, there is hysteria, calls for violence, insanely distorted stories, disinformation, and everything from QAnon and no-vaxxers to extreme trans totalitarianism and NJ girls getting up a gang to go get Kavanaugh -- it's highly creepy. My feed looks like that on that account because it has SL avatars and tech dudes. That's why. That's how they are. Contraption isn't out at the extreme, even if their customers include some of these goons, one of whom, yes, said he was mounting a "hit" on me. Sigh.

THE TABLEAUX

Still, there's one feature of the Contraption mythic rituals (which I participate in only in a "lite" way or with "OOC" over my head) which I find faintly creepy but then, maybe I don't fully understand it. Again, I don't go to the Contraption parties or play on their affiliated RP sims, I just go to the store and buy something now and then. So my alt went to their 10th anniversary awhile ago, and each time he went to that booth to collect the present for the 10 days, buying gatchas along the way, he found people standing around, posed in their steam get-ups but not talking. Well, that's common, people go to events and go AFK all the time, the managers should just boot them if the sim fills but it hadn't filled really. Or maybe they weren't AFK in fact, but just, I don't know, "Voguing."

And standing at the center of a circle of totally decked-out steamers were Walton and Victor, magnificently dressed in their WW I era gentleman steam duds with all the bells and whistles. They just stood there, swaying slightly -- and they were AFK too. After a few times visiting and seeing them, I realized, that was how it was supposed to be. It was like a tableau -- like the living tableaus of the Soviet era, like the Mormon pageant on Hill Cummorrah (which was 30 miles from our house so we used to go to it every year).

It was -- as I said -- faintly creepy but then it was also kind of like the bot models at the entrance of Fallen Gods. Why not have the actual people's avatars instead of bots? That's fine.

At FF, was it 2 years ago, there was a city called Somniatoris Arx build by Contraption with a character at the center in a huge grave named the Somniator.  He was a large winged skeleton half visible out of his grave and a giant thurible waved back and forth over his grave, high above on a flying buttress. When I went on the sim tour with the Literary group, the tour guide barked at me that I was walking on the Somniator's grave and had to get out of the way. I immediately said that it was Grandpa, and Mom used to let us picnic on the grave all the time, what's with this. See, I can write stories, too. I wrote an elaborate one and sent it in but it was ignored, I think it was past the deadline. I noticed that the Contraption staff would array themselves just above the grave silently, clutching the rosary beads with the wedding rings, which you could change to different colours, also silently, never chatting, and likely AFK -- it was a tableau again.

I'm not good with tableaus, I like interactive plots, so I made a Somniator myself out of just models from the MP of skeletons and what-not. I bigged it up and put some "rez object on touch correctly" script in it and on the last day of the Faire, I put the grave out and I had the Somniator rise up and dance around under the arch. A few last-minute Contraption shoppers stood by and cheered and snapped some pictures. Nobody really paid attention. I did this act a few times, and also tried to ride the thurible -- the way my brother and I did when we used to picnic on Grandpa's grave -- but you couldn't right-click and sit on it. Drat. The Worthies -- the top builders -- play tricks on each other on the last day and put out giant flamingos -- there was even the long-running gag that Silas Merlin did with his chickens, and I found nearly every one. But they pay attention to each other, not to anyone else. That's fine, I might have actually been slapped with a DMCA takedown for stealing an idea, come to think of it, but I didn't sell this rigged-up Somni, I just added to the story. Now I can't find him in inventory. Oh, well. Look for the pictures on my Flickr.

BASSETT TOWN

On the last day of FF this year, many people gathered at Bassett to see it one last time -- it was truly a magnificent build, with so many subtle details despite the seemingly drab decor in this fly-blown dust-devil Western town. The cemetery in the town square in front of the main building, which is not where cemeteries usually are (they are in churchyards, usually off to the side) with the name "Walton Wainright' on all of the tombstones; the main building that looked like a saloon but was actually a church and doubled as the main store for Contraption -- well, it was all beautifully done. Of course like everyone else I spent hours there not only on the Quest, which I'm bad at, but just in general, admiring the builds. I went on the LitFest tour there, too, which was kind of a straggling affair -- it's hard to do Story when you have so many people of different levels, languages, and computer connection speeds, but still, they did, and it was grand.

So in this square by a broken-down wagon and barrels were arranged Walton Wainright's character for this event, Ezekiel Ricketts, a somewhat sad and beaten fellow, his hand in a bloody bandage  -- I would call him a "whiskey priest" in another era, the era of Diary of a Country Priest.   He was gazing into the distance, with his partner and aide-de-camp, Victor E. Eton (Irving Merritt) standing at attention nearby.  Ezekiel was playing a mournful tune on his banjo, the one you could get in the store for the gramophone. But he had his own Long Version and I swear he never repeated a note. I sat there for 45 minutes, and I swear Walton never repeated a note! That may have been an illusion, but then, that's how well the song was written (and I believe it's another person who authors the songs, I'll have to look).

So it was a very effective scene, the mournful tune never repeating a note, and Victor whose character had a poncho thrown over his bony shoulders and a skeleton for a head (and no doubt he has "walked forty-seven miles of barbed wire/got a cobra snake for a necktie" (PS IM me if you want the skel who dances to that tune which I made). I asked Victor about the meaning of a symbol on his clothing, and he explained it was a thing, related to another thing, that was a thing they were doing. OK, I need to read up on it. PS I have that statue of the guy with the owl head and I'm putting it in my quest. It's the sort of statue in a niche you might think is St. Michael the Archangel and then WHOOPS you realize Mike has an owl hand and OMG. Are these people in Bohemian Grove? Because Bohemian Grove has an owl insignia.

So...Neither of them spoke -- it was that same kind of AFK sort of tableau from the 10th anniversary and other events I've seen. Once or twice Victor popped in to say something -- he does that more than Walton. Maybe this is how two busy people make themselves available to adoring fans who can never have enough of them. It's not mine to criticize. I sort of do this myself at my little level when I stand at the Main Office of Ravenglass Rentals, slumped in an AFK, doing my work in the other window and people IM me to get a house removed.

I remained there at worship in Bassett with the rest of the townfolk, I got the freebies and the buybies and even the dueling pistol. I hate guns. I totally oppose guns in RL and SL. I'm for banishing them totally. Certainly AR-15 rifles to start. Come to my Memorial in honour of the mass shooting victims in the US in Cayuga. So I never buy them in SL. Since my purchase of the Axe of the Leviathan which I obtained as a wee newbie, I never have purchased a weapon other than a static sword to put on the wall or as a fountain. It had a lot of cool animations which I couldn't master. I realized one day when I went to an art gallery in that Bassett get up which was really cool, that while debating US gun policy with an acquaintance there, I must have looked rather hypocritical with that gun, and put it away. My RL and SL are not separate. They are seamless. I'm not anonymous.

FRACTURED FAIRY-TALE

I assure you I did not wake up in the morning and think "I must get in Walton's face today". I rarely see or interact with him as much as I appreciate him. He's not on Twitter that much. He announced he was on leave, so I didn't expect to see a road-rage tweet from him.

So this saga that ensues is not deliberate, and his posse, many of whom came late to the story and suffered from the usual Fractured Fairy-Tale of partial Twitter understanding, and who showered a hail of abuse on me, even threatening to make a "hit" on me, and ranted and raged that I was "trans-phobic," because in another thread, because while advocating for trans rights and tolerance of all forms of transgender and non-binary people, I didn't want the phrase "pregnant people" to be forced on women, merely because a tiny percentage of trans men give birth. That's all.

But with this gang in the vicious, totalitarian world of the RP extremists in SL -- over which Walton presides, like a benign tsar, unaware of what the Oprichina is up to -- you can't win. When Walton fetches up from his RL bed now haughty and self-righteous, how can you get him to read all the crazy? To listen to what the point is? To grasp that if I mention my age and experience, it's the ONLY way to try to bring equality into a discussion where your interlocutor reigns supreme? And whose reign is recognized, by me.

So what is this contretemps on Twitter really about? Read the thread and side convos if you have the patience:

My first thought was that Walton got on Twitter to berate his own people in his own events he runs (The Warehouse, currently in session, and Engine Room coming in September, both excellent, premiere events).  Contraption apparently doesn't have its own Discord, although Second Life Syndicate, the events company, does, although it is probably not targeted enough, I don't know. (The topic of events companies is shrouded in mystery and worth another post).

So as I said, Walton had put a notice on his Twitter account the other day that he is on leave after some months of intensive building and creative activity at Fantasy Faire, SciFi-Con, Warehouse, SLB19 and probably other things -- all the top spring season events of SL. He's already posted to us that he is going on break to work on a very big project with new elements to his story/content creation and sales biz, which some people will follow avidly, and I will probably look in on once. So why does he come out of his vacation to get on Twitter, with his 1,353, follower, with what he calls "a PSA"?!

I take a WAG and figure it's because Warehouse is under way now, Engine Room, an even bigger deal, is coming up in September, which means creators are already making their wares for that event and staging them. And he doesn't want people with even laggier scripts than he has in his own wares -- and they have in theirs -- to slow down his shopping sims and reduce enjoyment -- and sales -- in the end. I think that's all there is to it. So he's trying to browbeat the largely female and trans women cohort of clothesmakers in SL, in his events, whom he must believe obviously to be stupid and unaware of the properties of anti-rez scripts and Copybot, into removing them. Could his hand-selected creators for his highly elite events be stupid about anti-rez scripts? Possibly.

It's that condescending male geeksplain bullshit that really got to me, but I also realized Walton inhabits a world far from the issues other more lowly creators face -- and as a far more established, high-profiled, and wealthy (in SL terms) business he has the capacity to file DMCAs, while not everyone else does.

Because I don't think he should pontificate about anti-rez scripts without also acknowledging that there have to be other remedies for Copybot then besides driving people to DMCAs.

No one says a word back to him *publicly*. As they didn't much with his last PSA in May before another episode of Warehouse and SciFi con, where he berated people for their cramped understanding of Steampunk as a genre and urged them to be more creative. This was puzzling to me given that I saw things like a Steampunk aquarium (!) at Warehouse at that moment, and I wrote that I wasn't sure if he was referring to the forums debate about SLB19 with this comment.

NATURALLY he knew nothing about the forums debate because he, like the hundreds of other very top creators of SL, aren't ON the forums. I mean, why would they waste time on those toxic cesspools? Why would they harm their image or their brand wrangling with the likes of not even Prokofy, but Coffee Pancake? So I sent him a painting that was going to be the basis for my own exhibition at SLB19, and he was delighted at an example of other colours besides brown, black, and gold.

I don't know what internal convos he had either in his groups or his discords or what, but THAT burr in his saddle wasn't entirely clear, and judging from the output at SL19 as I've written "Just Put a Gear on It!"), few people heeded  Walton, the God of Gear in SL. Oh, well.

ROAD RAGE

Then I began to wonder, given the spleen he showed over anti-rez scripts, which we can all agree are annoying, whether he just didn't have his own personal road-rage over what he saw as a bloaty outfit. I posted the script times of the anti-rez script I bought off the MP and told him examine (it's open source) and measured the script times of Contraptions own attachments, of which I have purchased plenty (or picked up at their various anniversaries and events). A couple of those goggles and backpacks and whatnot -- you have the same script time as if you had only your regular outfit and a worn box with an anti-rez script. So why not, I noted pointedly, take off some Contraption stuff, if the RP sim has a get-up you have to buy and rules you have to follow? He was torqued about having to change his character -- understood.

And as I suspected, in fact, that's what it was about, as he said in a sub-tweet a day later. And he nattered on that he can take everything out of or off his own products obviously but not from something not on mod. I presume he campaigns as hard on the no-mod issue? I do, by not buying those products or if I must, buying them and taking a star off their MP review.

So all of this was about Walton having to change his clothes on an RP sim. If they were his own clothes, he could mod them or take out scripts. But they are no-mod/no transfer clothes with anti-rez scripts in them he views as pernicious. (I bet he never gets this upset about the infestation of HUDs in general as content delivery systems and unpacker scripts which are the bane of SL -- he was happy to cede a fat exemption to any HUD for any purpose like a game. Oh, well).

SIMPLIFIED PACKAGING

I was so, so, so impressed with luc recently. He dropped ALL of the TOTAL NONSENSE in packing we have been subjected to in the last eight years or more. He put his food giver in a plain prim box, and called it a day. You drag the contents into inventory. Walla, you're done, no HUD in your face, no unpacker script firing and deleting the box while you accidentally don't receive the contents, etc. This entire nonsense of unpacking and HUDs was created by this misplaced fear that newbies or slow learners couldn't learn to drag things out of a prim into inventory -- without getting the box on their head.

So the result today is that all of us have to have creepy iron-legged little robots who chant bloody war ditties and clutch on our backs like limpets, to get a Contraption item. Well, they're kind of cute, it's ok.

NEVER CHALLENGE YOUR BETTERS

I totally realize that when these things blow by on Twitter, you should not challenge your betters. Truly I do. Because not only that superior creator but the legions of anonymous goons who fan him will start hectoring you with their perceived or actual knowledge of technical issues. This is what makes people intimidated in SL from ever objecting to anything these superiors say -- but I don't suffer from that problem.

WALTON IS KING

So first, first, the genuflections to all four compass points. I am the first to write that Walton Wainright is THE top creator of SL and I mean that even after this wrangle with him. Why?

o He has the most superior, high quality content in a niche but popular enough genre that not only reaches multiple RP genres like steam or sci-fi or goth that has some crossover to mainstream; not everyone wants a bloody metal mask blocking their face but many people want an old fashioned gramophone that plays mournful tunes;

o He has high attention to details like LOD collapse and lag and the look and feel and use of builds;

o He has high patience and ability to develop story, compelling narratives, arch and witty but sometimes sinister, which people like;

o He writes or commissions very talented and haunting musical pieces;

o He is friendly and himself sometimes comes out to a house call. Example: when I couldn't get My Bird Husband (an item made available at a tribute to Zerkalo's founder Daniel who died in RL) to big up the way I feel he should be for my scene, even if Walton did not grasp why his little bird needed to be big (so as to be like those Half-Deer Birbs I and the Deeries bigged up in Iris), he cheerfully bigged it up and sent it back to me; I also went many rounds trying to trouble shoot his experience-driven mirror. (PS I have probably burned more hours on Experience than anyone in SL except of course Fantasy Faire quest makers. You simply have to have small parcels with a dedicated landing point on them for it to work properly; otherwise non-group members won't land on the destination point. There are other problems with Experience I could discuss another day).

o He seems to be a smart and engaging person with a husband in RL who is also his SL creation partner; I think the consumer public always like to see something stable but romantic at the heart of a merchant story.  I mean, they're like Dave, the Wendy's Guy. Well, sort of. (PS the first time I saw Walton silently building at FF years ago with Victor Eton silent by his side, I thought mistakenly that Victor was his mule alt where he kept his building supplies because his own heavy inventory main account couldn't load content any more during projects -- that's what I'd be doing in a scene like that. But then I came to realize Victor is a real, separate person AND his RL partner. If this is a myth -- and we have no way of verifying it -- shoot me, but from all indications it's true).

So it's precisely because Walton is all those wonderful things that I bother resisting. Maybe these people can change. Maybe they can stop being arrogant assholes -- especially the ones who aren't really fully of that nature. Maybe they can grasp the larger issues of our fragile world, headed toward destruction.

CONDESCENSION

Walton doesn't hear or see the terrible condescension in these tweets, when he keeps telling me, in SL nearly 18 years and a creator and business owner, too, even if a far more amateur and tiny one, that I need to learn the facts of life about copybotting, and he's happy to help me. The more I try to explain to him that I truly do know these facts of virtual life and knew them before he was born, the more he accuses me of elitism. To be sure, he apologized later, which was big of him. But he really doesn't want to take the time to hear what the history MEANS.

He doesn't know that I know because I don't count in his world and never had. If I were a top designer in his events and in his friends' circle, he wouldn't dream of lecturing me about Copybot. He accepts that his peers know about Copybot. He doesn't accept his customers, especially from the low, mass culture class, know anything at all. They only deserve to be lectured.

So all of it just sounds arrogant, as I was helping my hired builders do DMCA take-downs for years before he came to SL. I recall when entire picnic tables, desert buildings, etc. were copybotted as both a griefing of me as a critic of SL, and merely as the garden variety copying that goes on in SL. In Ansheland, a copybotter casually copied all my builder's desert buildings in a scene and put them down on their own land next door (!). Anshe shrugged; it took some doing to get the Lindens to focus. We had RL names and addresses we were willing to put down; not everyone does.

If Walton is, say, 35 in RL now, the Copybot scandal happened when he was 17 and not in SL yet. He then has the temerity to tell me not to pull rank with experience -- as if any little lowly land dealer and amateur dabbler could be pulling rank on THE top creator of SL. You see what is so often the case with these geek designers -- they are actually strangely insecure, unaware of their own power and influence, unaware of the world, they lack any empathy, and can't even understand their own greatness and its responsibility.

CLASS WARFARE

He says "we're all in this together".

I wish we were.

We are not.

It is class warfare.

And I am happy to fight that class war, you will find. I don't want to live in a world where only a sanctified Guild of top creators dictate policy of technical or social kind without finding of facts especially, where we can't exist except as rubes and consumers. I don't want to live in a RenFaire. I don't want Fantasy Faire to be all day, every day, forever. I want it only to be two weeks out of the year. I want true diversity and pluralism and freedom and tolerance, and that means people who use mesh models -- are they allowed at Engine Room lol?

I don't know why all those "little dressmakers," as the people sneering at us back in the original Copybot days were called, aren't responding either to justify their use of the script or to say they take his point but don't like his attitude. But it turns out at the end he had "92 DMs" where his posse was all golf-clapping and agreeing -- and the fact that the RP sim owner with those clothes and their makers were not contacted privately, but he "took it to Twitter" is something that he and his posse will have to sort out.

I can totally grasp that my effort to defend these people I don't even know and probably wouldn't care for (I don't do RP sims) doesn't endear me to them and that's fine. 

When I linked to those stories that happened BEFORE HE WAS BORN, it was to help him try to understand the SOCIAL CONTEXT of Copybot. He, like all geeks, and increasingly all males and even all people, as binary thinking and literalist thinking induced by computers takes over the human mind, said that literally THAT Copybot of yore was copying prims and textures by another mechanism but the Copybot of today, the hipster era of the coolest kids, uses another mechanism to suck up the data sent to the server about the mesh features. All those vertices and whatnot. I don't have to know the science and math of this procedure to know THAT it works in that fashion like other things in SL -- it's like how you learn to drive a car without knowing the science of internal combustion. The ability of norms to grasp computer functioning and processes far exceeds the willingness of geeks and designers to admit our increasing abilities. Such is our world.

The SOCIAL side of Copybot -- the panic, the fear of loss of LIVELIHOOD of Black designers in Detroit and retired postal men in Columbus, Ohio -- it was awful, awful. SL was a dream, a commerce based world where you could finally sell and not just be stripped of your personal data for others to sell. This still evades Walton, even though he did, to his credit do two things -- you can see he is not theoretical at all but experience- and fact-based:

FACT-CHECKING

o First, hoping to play "gotcha" as geeks always are with norms, when I said the Mole backpack from SLB19 had the anti-rez script in it (it sure seemed to me like it did), he went and got a backpack and proved it had no such script in it. And that's fine, I don't have a problem admitting I was wrong when I was obviously wrong!

I'll bet big money that he did that not by torturously going through the Swaginator Hunt like I had to, but just IMing a Mole friend who was probably cheering him on in this Twit-fight in the background.

Why did I think the backpack did? Because when I rezzed it out to put it in a scene in a Linden home, where the floors DO NOT suffer from mesh bounce as so many SL houses do, like his own Pollux  -- they have addressed this issue -- it poofed but seemed visible for a second. Normally there are three ways for things to disappear like that in SL: a) you don't have the right group tag on your head -- you see the item for a minute, it disappears; b) anti-rez, where it appears for a second and disappears; c) mesh bounce, where you never see it at all and it disappears. You have to re-log to see it again.

Since the Moles started using -- to my enormous chagrin -- the Casper vendors, I was afraid using resident anti-rez scripts -- they do come from the user base, after all -- might be a sin now, too. So I was wrong.

o Walton went out and bought for $119 the Shuggles anti-rez script which I recommended merely because it's open source and he can see the 

SIDETRACK ON MESH BOUNCE

I'll bet you Walton has never really thought about mesh bounce and its issues because he rarely makes buildings. 

But let's take the gorgeous Pollux office which I love but which doesn't rent because it suffers badly from mesh bounce. I constantly try to educate my tenants that so many mesh houses suffer from this issue, because they were not made or uploaded properly with this problem in mind.

My sense is that someone like Walton doesn't live in SL. He doesn't have a house. He doesn't invite his pals over for drinks and snacks. He hasn't tried to decorate his living room and seen all his no-copy gatchs return due to mesh bounce. Again, if I'm wrong, shoot me, but I never heard of this particular Great and Powerful Oz having a house. SL is a hobby, a blank canvas, a chat room with peers. It's not a place to live. Or for that matter work. His work is outside in his RL home on the Internet or with various tools like Blender. That's fine. But then I'm going to firmly call out that he doesn't know what it's like to LIVE HERE.

I DO. (And yes, I "have a life" -- look me up in the book.)

Sure, he comes in and visits some RP sim. This is part of working his fan base and it's all good. But if he had a permanent home in SL especially once he made himself, he would have long ago grasped the mesh bounce problem and fixed it. 

Mesh bounce is when you try to put a mesh object out on mesh, and it just won't rez and gives you a ridiculous message  "The owner of this land does not allow it" (which I've desperately tried to get the Lindens to change to no avail) which angers my tenants because they feel like I personally am telling people who paid me money they can't do something).

There are several threads on the forums about this, and no, this page is all wrong that this is merely a "bug". Lindens refuse to change the message -- I have debated this many times. They persist in thinking it's about the server thinking you are putting your item on another sim, across a sim seam, or on land not your own, but that is definitely not it. I can be in the middle of an entire sim I own and still have this problem because it's about how the mesh was uploaded, not your placement. 

Here's a screenshot. 

Mesh Bounce

Please don't tell me my business when I have to help the customers of YOUR products in YOUR PRODUCTS or OTHER CREATORS. Scarlet Creative used to have horrendous bounce problems; I had long talks with her; she fixed it. PS there are long threads on the forums (that she herself participates in, as she does on the cash-out issue) about mesh bounce. But Walton mentally is making a backdrop, a scene to a story, a sim like FF which is a shopping and philanthropy sim, not a place you live in for long. Barnesworth Anubis had this problem more severely; he began to get rid of it. The Moles making the Linden Homes in Bellisseria licked this problem. Etc. People talk about detaching floors; making them phantom; doing this, doing that, there is One Weird Trick that solves it SOMETIMES but why? Upload your mesh right, guys.

Everyone who has to either rent out or wants to live in houses gets that you have to rez out a prim board to decorate because creators can't be arsed to fix mesh bounce. I make this digression to explain the background of how creators are perceived; the social context for even top-notch, decent human being creators making PSAs they think are a genuine public service, and why no one will bother to listen to them and resent them (oh, except maybe a few eager fangirlz).

WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER

Walton at one point appeals to commonality. He doesn't really understand this beef. He is probably privately wishing to just block me and be done with it, but who needs a blogging customer mad at you? He thinks if he says "we're all in this together" -- as if he was merely "trying to help for the public good," why, who could fault him?

Well, we're not all in this together.

We're not all in the top 200 designers of SL in Shop 'n Hop

We're not even in the 85 selected SLB19 exhibitors.

And this isn't sour grapes. We can't all be "the best" and the Lindens can't pick critical bloggers especially. That's fine. But, as on forums users asked plaintively years ago:

WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WITH NO TALENT?

There has to be a place for us in this society and we can't be just dumb shoppers expected to endlessly shop at your idiotic weekend sales that never end and your endlessly proliferating events.

Some of us are in the "other" category although we make the bulk of power SL users -- consumers and pro-sumers at the amateur level.

And there is a huge gulf between you and us.

If some creator doesn't like me speaking up for them and think's I'm full of shit, they're welcome to speak up themselves and correct me. But they don't.

And here's why.

They are dependent on the good will of Walton, Second Life Syndicate (what a name! sounds like a mafia), and the coterie of the ne plus ultra creator class who form opinion of what is cool and what is not, partly driven by actual technical exigencies, and partly driven by illusion and swinging dicks.

I don't feel we need to sit still for that and as is well known, I push back.

Now what is it I don't get about anti-rez scripts? Nothing. I've seen them execute many, many times! They don't seem especially necessary to me and I'm able to read their script time on a Xoph sensor as high -- but they don't seem as bad a problem as "no mod" -- also inflicted on the buying public not just for reasons of Copybot. I encounter the idiocy of "no mod" way more than I do any anti-rezzer script because "no mod" isn't just about a creator with a hysteria about Copybot which she thinks thinks she has warded off IP theft with a totemic seal.

But wait. In fact, except for the Copybot problem, which isn't as common an occurrence on a sim as imagined, no-mod is useful in preventing someone from opening up a prim, taking a script or texture or anim, and putting it into another prim. Best of all, if that item is on copy/transfer to serve as food or a temp-attach item, "no-mod" means you can't put it to sale. No-mod isn't just a fetish to ward off evil spirits; it's a function to prevent re-sale literally and to prevent use of the script and animation outside the original object. There is nothing wrong with that. LL put permissions in from the beginning. There has always been an extreme faction of copyleftists fighting it and making all kinds of special pleadings. They've ultimately all been ignored in favour of commerce based on permissions

The default of cynical asshole geeks in SL from time memorial is to tell creators they are morons, to ridicule and demean them, like Electronic Frontier Foundation did telling us that our TOS was shit and nothing could save our tiny economy built on dreams -- and Creative Commons founder Lawrence Lessig (who tried to impose Creative Commons in SL and failed miserably). They don't respect copyright and perms at all, as you can readily see from some of the comments by low-follow trolls who came into this discussion to tell you that no-transfer clothing is a "problem". Of course it isn't "a problem". Walton himself puts his clothing on "no-transfer". He doesn't make his living in SL, but he doesn't want to give his hobby creations away for free; they have to generate some income to cover costs at least of servers, etc.

IF WALTON REALLY UNDERSTOOD THE RAMIFICATIONS OF HIS STENTORIAN ADMONITION THAT ANTI-REZ SCRIPTS CAN'T SAVE YOU FROM ALL-POWERFUL COPYBOT, HE SHOULD PUT ALL HIS CREATIONS ON COPY AND TRANSFER BECAUSE REALLY, ONLY DMCA TAKEDOWN NOTICES PROTECT IP. THE END.

Yet, he doesn't, and participates in the social construct of permissions like all of us -- he just wants to optimize the script time, and he thinks shaming people about their anti-Copybot schemes will force this optimization. Well, good luck.

To him, anti-rezzing scripts, even with this follow-up acknowledgement of certain use cases for them, are an obstacle to his goal of optimal creations that are visually appealing but not laggy -- he's obsessive on these topics, likely more than is necessary given the poor computer graphics capacity that most people on SL have, such as not to even appreciate some LOD marvel or Advanced Lighting wonder. I turn all that stuff off, like a lot of people. Artists browbeat and hector us with big signs at the doors of their galleries -- we ignore them totally and enjoy the scenes anyway.

Walton is convinced that all that is necessary is to explain to ignorant women -- it's mainly women who make clothes -- that they are putting script hogs in their products out of uneducated fear, and they should stop, so his events won't be so laggy -- and in general, the experiences of his customers using his script-eating wares. His anticipation is that he will either get the back-up Greek chorus of his fellow geek dudes, or some fangirl gushing, and that will close the door on the subject on the way to the bright and beautiful future.

So this is where I put a big sneakered foot in the door and say, "No."

I say "No" because at my end of the telescope on SL, things look different and ARE different.

First, I immediately speak up on behalf of the benefits of protective scripts such as one I myself commissioned and a noted scripter devised FOR FULL PERM MODELS. I don't want him stepping on this sector out of cultural or even economic warfare and superior sneering (creators who use models are barred from most top creator events, where organizers demand only original created mesh). I don't want the catch all denunciation of "anti-rez" scripts to then capture the protection scripts such as I commissioned and others use which make rezzed objects outside their giver turn black and poof. Food givers have become much more popular, partly because I've campaigned for them, putting food to give in every beautiful creation that didn't contain it, explaining to creators they should do this themselves, and explaining how. The market began to demand this especially with the appearance of andika on the scene, who does such beautiful food delivery items, and luc of course, and it isn't about me at all.

There's no rocket science here with the FULL PERM PROTECTION (note we are NOT talking about NO TRANSFER CLOTHES); it works on the same or similar principles of other such protection scripts. We aren't so benighted as to imagine they work 100% against *Copybot* in particular; but this is like a COVID vaccine. It doesn't have to be perfect. It can work 87% or 62%. It can work not at all after awhile, and then you have to make a new kind. Etc. But it works well enough to MAKE THE WORLD.

My use case involves mainly givers of food or givers of various temp-used items like a book or a magic stick. You can accomplish this in SL by 1) having "rez wearable" whereupon the wearble jumps to the avatar but never comes in his inventory; 2) you can 'give everything but scripts" (there's something Walton should do a public service message on, the need to use GIVE EVERYTHING BUT SCRIPTS so that you don't clutter and confuse other users with excess other kinds of dispense scripts) and  then the person gets it in inventory and then uses "wear" or "add" OR 3) you can use another kind of "rez object on touch correctly" with "temp-attach" and have it work that way, for more refined animations, multiple animations in a series, etc. I bet Walton never has to think of any of these issues for the market in general. He makes his own mesh, he has teams of people doing scripting and optimization and marketing and he doesn't have to think about how he will survive in a field of rampant theft.

It's not just clothes that bounce with an anti-rez script; some teacups or magic spell books do the same thing.

So I first point out that they're used not just for clothes, which is all Walton cares about -- clothes and accessories are the creator items that cost the most and sell the most, we all get it; houses and furniture sell less than even breedables these days, especially with Linden Homes competing.

Walton curtly dismisses the other use case of food givers  with a tone that implies food consumption is low on his list of RP needs and versimilitude, although legions of people demand this and there are all kinds of sub-communities like players of XeoLife and DFS making food growing and consumption like real life.  I personally only recall one from him very recently -- the whiskey tray in Bassett (and my God, you do need a hearty shot of whiskey to get through that very dreary sim about a dying culture of the Wild West). In self-defense, he then says he does do givers, and trots out the whiskey. Sigh. 

Of course, his posse does not include the lowly plebes who eat from Prok's Trash Can Cuisine -- or for that matter luc's latest Stuffed Peppers (I'm the one that got luc to start making his products deliverable and sent him my Trash Cuisine as a model). We are a lesser breed. And we are, I get it, truly I do. Because we have to put our items on copy/transfer to make them deliverables, which means nobody needs to crank up a Firestorm performing Copybot (again, a  reason I refuse to use FS because they will not technically remove or verbally condemn this practice)

OH WOW PROK ARE YOU STOOOPID YOU DON'T GET YOU CAN COPY ANYTHING IN SL ENTIRELY IN SECONDS?

Yes, I describe this as the "analog hole" -- although that term is technically and literally not quite correct any more given the way the viewer functions now but as a generic philosophical term, it will do. This was the term computer specialists used 20 years ago when you all were watching Barney. I see it's not a term used any more, but what it means is, "if you can see it, you can copy it". To serve it to you, LL has to make a copy it puts in front of you; to see and use it, you thereby become able to copy it. This is why Raph Koster would say:

THE CLIENT IS IN THE HANDS OF THE ENEMY

The game devs always see the customer, by whom they profit, as they enemy because they burn through content and demand more; they mod and sell content in illegal ways; they steal IP and sell game currency on ebay, etc and don't behave like the docile customers of the movie and music industry did for decades.

This means some day, we may have only Meta with their high caste of devs and designers and the rest of us will be barred from creation in order to prevent IP theft.

Yes, we get it that now, no human eye is needed; now the Copybot can literally be a bot sent into a sim to have a function performed which involves slurping up the information sent to the server,

But here's the thing. Copybot has to have this virtual setting to function: someone must be waring that coveted frock coat and waist coat and monocle on a crowded event sim where they are either trying on or purchasing the item or participating in some group story around the product like an FF event sim -- and then snatch it within a blink of an eye through the wonders of science. Therefore, reasons Walton, copying happens without any rezzing; therefore no anti-rez scripts are needed.

COPYBOT IS NOT UBIQUITOUS ALTHOUGH YOU THEORIZE AS IF IT IS

But Copybot is not functioning on every sim at every minute, because the Lindens do have various ways of chasing these things. They won't close off anonymizer sites as we wish they were, imagining that freedom fighters in Iran or China are logging on with them (not!); they do scrape hash marks or whatever to track things; they can triangulate a bunch of different data points, each of which tells nothing, and put it together to spell WOODBURY -- we have watched these methods over the years and obviously they don't tell us about them. When Philip was able to kill 50 avatars from Something Awful/WHat in an afternoon (but miss some of the top miscreants who were careful not to get their hands dirty), there was enormous screeching and hollering but you know, LL has the server logs and we don't. Behaviours cluster; people who use CopyBot and sell hot ripped items also crash sims and run around with pornographic avatars in General.

ARE THE BOTS BACK IN THE BOX?

I have written repeatedly about all the other episodes around Copybot, which I witnessed myself -- indeed part of the strategy of the people griefing SL with this to "make a point" was to show it to me and get me blogging about it. The only problem was that the Herald, where I broke this story, was funded by the Electric Sheep, and the Herald's managing editor was on the Sheep's payroll. Since I was a lowly virtual journalist, but a RL journalist who understood how things work when it comes to site funders, I did what I was told and made the setrec, even knowing it to be false and misleading. Later when enough griefing of me personally was done to force me out of the Herald, I did more research. I met the person in RL who showed me the first bots. I met the Sheep staff person who deployed the code. They and others were in libsl. Libsl was busy in 2004-2005 reverse-engineering the viewer. This was disallowed under the TOS, but Cory Linden (Cory Ondrejka) encouraged it. He had a different view than Philip as we came to discover after Cory quit SL.  He wanted to liberate both the viewer and server code; Philip did not.

The Lindens backdated their tolerated TOS violation and havoc ensued as libsl didn't create but griefed, and set Copybot lose in the world. This is not a secret and not hard to find out today. Some people speculated darkly that Intel, where this individual worked soon after, in fact had sabotaged SL because they had their own virtual world in the making; there was a lot of cut-throat competition at the time with even Google making a short-lived virtual world called Lively. I'm always amazed when I stumble on Twitter users describing themselves as the thinkers at the dawn of the Metaverse, ignorant of their virtual grandfathers of 15-20 or more years ago -- they piss on SL as a cybersex dungeon with silly copyright and no interoperability and refuse to see all the very valid lessons and accomplishments of SL. Today, the Copybot coder (although he is a separate person from at least two other nefarious deployers inworld -- which is how he can keep plausible deniability) has his own robotics firm. This is life in the Metaverse.

04c38840687f06e4e6b691ff1a669fdb

There's enormous amount of double-talk about Copybot, and claims it was an innocent debugging project. It wasn't. I was there. I recorded what libsl did, the "perverse engineers," they used god-mode to stalk and harass me. I AR'd their obscenities and particle bombings and sim crashes; they tried to shut me up. This was a thuggish gang that constantly harassed me and tried to silence me writing on the Herald about their true nature. Emerald devs -- and yes Phoenix and Firestorm are indeed related to them -- came on my sim Belarus and kicked all the chickens offworld to kill them, this was sport. They made a giant effigy of my RL head and would hold parties with it and make films of it, which you used to be able to see on YouTube. 

Most of all they wanted to hide the fact that big business was using this, via their consultants in SL, Electric Sheep (which doesn't even exist any more), who all had nothing but a cynical attitude toward any IP protection except their own. The Lindens, when they created the Nebraska product, finally created a special closed store like the Soviets had with the Beriozka system where big RL companies could buy from a select set of merchants -- this was to ensure both that they wouldn't face copyright claims AND that they could violate it at will as work-for-hire. They copied these items with the trick of merely resetting a sim in time and reloading it.

Why does Copybot exist, Walton? Do you think it exists for script kiddies to make a buck off a ripped dress or car in a sandbox where commerce is not allowed but no one enforces this law? No. Grown-ups made Copybot to destroy copyright and liberate content so that like YouTube and the California Ideology, the Internet and then the Metaverse have free and available content to attract customers. That your IP is devalued in the process; that the newspaper, media, book, record, digital arts industries are all destroyed except for a few very highly resourced biggies like the New York Times -- who cares? 

YOU don't care BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN TO YOU. And if it does, you can get lawyers, do DMCA takedowns, do whatever, as you have a RL business and RL contacts and RL capacity. Many creators don't. (PS that's not me, if I need to call a copyright lawyer I know just whom to call and the media to call to get the issue covered as well).

PERMISSIONS IN SL ARE NOT A FEATURE; THEY ARE A BUG

The concept of enabling creative people to make a living through sale of their content is not a feature of these platforms; it's a bug -- a bug that we all temporarily exploit, but it can't last forever. We all would like that model for the Metaverse and not the scraping and sale of personal data and the incitement of social hatred and division for clicks. But let's not pretend that those who select the former are also altruistic. They're not.

Walton conceded that the other use case for anti-rez is for those customers who haven't figured out yet that they need to use "add" or "wear" and just instinctively rez out a dress. In the old days they had a box on their head because they  were more instinctive about "add" from games or other worlds. There are always new people or returnees learning the lessons of "wear" -- and I would add that people who have already used up their attachment points, and experience a bounce, then might rez it out to see if there is something they might "do" or "edit".

CREATIONS FROM 'INSPIRATION'

And now comes the final point about all this I have saved for last. I was hoping Walton would get it. He didn't. I was hoping some diva would say something. She didn't. Because it's obviously not something to discuss.

It's Hair Fair, and you can be sure somewhere in the Metaverse, some merchant is crying herself to sleep because she thinks someone has stolen her hair -- or they have in fact. The forums, groups, Discords have endlessly wrangles about stolen hair, shapes, etc.

Is this about Copybot and your browbeat about its irrationality?

No.

Because to steal hair or a shape or something like that, sure, you can use Copybot. You may be skilled or not in doing that and may or may not get caught. Not every designer who wants to be respectable wants to reach the top through Copybotting; people will talk.

So there's another thing she will do.

She will rez the body or dress out on the sim where she can view it in the round. Walk around it. Take her time. Cam into it. Study it up close. Take some screenshots. Turn it around. This process leads to a creation "inspired by" another. It may not be technically slavishly copied, but someone who makes a shape or hair after this intense scrutiny -- thwarted only by anti-rez scripts! -- can make something that may look entirely like the original source of "inspiration".

THAT is the use case. I have no idea how common it is; I think quite common judging from the drama over the years. Someone will no doubt be along and explain that while once that was the truth with prim and sculpty and flexi hair and shapes made inside the avatar outfit creator, now, with mesh, that is less common. I don't believe that to be the case.

Sure, you don't need to rez it out! Duh! You can stand on a posing disc and turn yourself around with the camera and see just fine. Yes, we all do that. Yes, I grasp you can do that. But if you want to see all up and down and inside and out of a mesh clothing item, you can't beat rezzing it out inworld.

BTW sometimes such scrutiny isn't about "inspiration" copying but just about asking for a feature that isn't available, or for demanding "mod" when it isn't there. And sometimes customers get their way.

In any event, if I'm wrong, it doesn't matter, I don't count. What I am not seeing here is the anti-rezzer script users stepping up and explaining that no, they aren't stupid about Copybot, but they use it for: [pick a reason]. They may never show up to speak their piece. If YOU were in a Second Syndicate event run by Walton (or at least in which Walton took a leading role on content creation parameters or rules), where YOU depended on him and that event for your income would YOU speak up? Of course not! Where you were lucky to have gotten into it as not everyone is accepted? Would YOU EVER speak up and contradict the Content Creator-in-Chief? Would you?

Walton thinks that because he has "92 DMs" with approval, that the case is closed. He claims that these creators who used these scripts drove away new users. Of course just about everything in SL drives away new users, especially arrogant content creators who can't be arsed to do CS and sic their rude CS people on you who inflict more damage.

I want to hear from creators who use these scripts, and trust me, I'm going to go through my inventory to find them.

I want to hear from the maker of Bosh scripts, and I will ask him.

I want to hear from Shuggles, whose script Walton conceded wasn't so bad but...

I want to hear if Walton, in the UK, where there is less of this nonsense, thinks that "pregnant people" and "people who menstruate" are terms we must accept for the sake of being inclusive of trans men.

I think trans women are women; I accept that they have transitioned in fact to what they always felt they were; this isn't hard for me to do at all. What I do then object to -- having celebrated trans women as women -- is the need now to subsume that term into a collectivized "pregnant people". That's the big struggle this week, causing people to be fired from their jobs and cancel their subscriptions to the NYC over an article saying we should not have the far left or the far right control women's bodies, and the "pregnant people" is as bad as Dobbs in that regard. I may disagree about Dobbs for other reasons, but I sure do think "pregnant people" has to go the way of MSM, "men having sex with men," the term hospitals and foundations use. It's ok to say LGBTQ+ ; it's ok to use whatever pronouns an individual requests.

COMMON COURTESY

And then the other, related point I have: it used to be part of SL's civic culture that you removed your attachments and heavy scripts -- pre-anticipated by Cheech and Chong's admonition to "let the air out of your shoes" when exiting the Bozo Bus to the Midway of the Future. To help you be a good citizen, LL had a nag screen that tells you your avatar "cost" and it keeps nagging at you and tries to incentivize you to change by warning you that you are not visible to everyone -- the system turns you gray if you are "too expensive". I, like a lot of people, are happy to be good citizens and take off scripted things like a backpack or an animesh shoulder pet to relieve the sim. But we also turn off that nag screen on the Debug screen because it's merely a nuisance.

And here's the thing. The Lindens used to browbeat on all this way more than they used to. Maybe their way of telling us to stop wearing hair when we went out on the town was to shove it up our ass when we teleported and landed. They put in the nag screen after all and make a cursory effort to tell people to remove their attachments all the time, even while recognizing this made them special.

But if you have been in events like SLB19 or Meet the Moles lately or even just Concierge on Wednesdays, you'll notice a different refrain from the Lindens: "We now have new, fast, fresh, powerful Event Servers. Buy them! You will never feel lag again!" So instead of telling people to recycle or walk or take the bus, tp make them buy cloth bags for a dollar, they now have new electric cars that don't pollute the environment. Well, not as much.

Of course, there's this dark side of Event Regions which has to do with "the child is father of the man" as I call it  -- or you know, that child objects rendering in the distance on the cam sim. The cam sim makes things worse, they tell us. But of course, that's to get people to buy an Events Region.

Walton, buy an Events region. You can likely afford it. All these issues will go away.

Until then, I want you to think really hard about what your solution is for Copybot in general -- and don't be Mr. Helpful and tell me you will assist me in filling out a DMCA notice. No sale.

Some day, when you work for MetaSteam 30 years from now and I will long be dead, you will remember the summer night long ago when we argued about Copybot, in a world where we both could still create what we want to and sell it and keep nearly all the proceeds when we cashed out.

 

Posted at 02:20 PM in FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes, Intellectual Property, SL Creators and Merchants, Virtual Governance | | Comments (5)

04/14/2022

The Famous "I don't get it, and they certainly don't" Forums Post In Which the Term 'FIC' Was Created

You never know if the Lindens might get the idea to delete the forums archive. So I have kept a copy of the famous post by Pahoa Jade, still my neighbour all these years in Carlisle, who "took it to the forums". It's easier to read at that link than here for some reason.

I don.t get it, and they certainly don't
Pahoa Jade
Just Me
Join date: 16 Jul 2003
Posts: 115
01-01-2005 05:09
You can tell by my number of postings that I dont post very often for being here over a year. And very rarely do I start a thread. I tend to be quiet about most things and usually let the real concerned parties battle it out.

This happens to be my battle (started by someone else) and as my friends can tell you, I maybe the quiet one of the group but I never back down from my own battles.

As a lot of you know we (Jazzy Jade Wolf Group) recently moved from Lusk. Part of what compelled us to move after over a year there, was the fact that builds around us virtually cut access to our land from two sides and a third side was the edge of the world.

As these builds began to expand we waited patiently to see the outcome. You see, we do support the fact that it is your land you can do what you want with it. Well, when it got to the point that we felt closed in and knew we would be happier somewhere else, we evaluated what our mission was and what we wanted to accomplish business wise. In short we moved.
During the time this was happening we didnt critisize the builds didnt call names or degrade the missions of others, we respected their freedom to play THEIR game as they saw fit.

So we moved on. We had already built in Eagan to combine our Jade Wolf and Jade Passions stores. I feel it is a build to be proud of. We have received many compliments from our neighbors there.

So now we come to Carlisle. We found a beautiful Island there. We were the second to buy in the sim after it was carved up for resell after the auction. Many of the sims around us were still for sale also.

We (Shad, Crim and I) hung over the Island and talked in voice about how we should buy and what our vision would be. Do we Buy most of the island and risk someone buying the water around it and building on the waterway? Do we buy a potion of the island and as much water around on our end as we can to preserve the waterway? You see we had almost 23K in land allotment available to the group. There was one underlying vision... to build as unobtrusivly as possible and prevent the same thing happening here that we had happen in Lusk.

We opted for preserving the water and as much as we could of the island.

Well, we have been working very hard lately and wanted a break before we built.
So, (as I state in my profile) Carlisle is our playground right now.
We are great fans of Starax's creations. So naturally, we decided to take advantage of the 5000+ unused prims we had and enjoy the sculptures we had before we started building. We began putting out our favorites, right now I believe we have around 8 out.
We also spent a day replacing almost 200 Linden trees one by one with exact replicas on our portion of the island to preserve the beauty.

We have had people stop to admire and comment on the sculptures. If you dont know Starax's work, it ranges from serious to whimsical and sometimes quirky, but always awesome. I believe we have one of the biggest private displays of his work in SL right now.

Ok, so, now that I've laid the background out, if you're still with me thank you.

We come to my battle. Really the groups but I was the one approached so I am addressing it now.

Yesterday I received an IM from a neighbor in the next sim to ask if we would sell our land in the water adjoining theirs. This is a location we have put some sculpture, we made sure it was located so that it would not hinder water traffic.

I inquired as to why they wanted the land. I was told it was to preserve the view and someone they had just sold land to was unhappy with what we had placed there and had requested their money back. This party kept asking what our plans were and said they were concerned given the size of our business, they didnt want a big ugly store there but could live with dolphins.
I explained that we didn't have concrete plans for our build but yes that spot was planned for a display of Starax sculptures.
Well, this person was very insistant that I define our plans. I reiterated that I had told them early on that we were undecided. And I hadnt judged their builds or use of land as they shouldnt mine.

I was told we were obviously some kind of animal lovers and it made them wonder what our plans were. WTH does that mean?

I pointed out I may not agree with their builds and the person complaining was more obtrusive in their build that overhung the water than we were. I was told they had some of the best builders in SL do their builds and I shouldnt trash them
I explained I wasnt trashing the builds but the layout and density.

Well, needless to say I ended the convo saying I think this disscussion is done and if you leave us in peace, we will do the same for you. Cause it boils down to it is our land.

OK my peeve here is...
Why, are some people so narrow minded as to think their vision or what they choose to do with their land should take presidence over others?
Why, after they buy land do they feel they have a right to demand what other earlier buyers around them plan to do with their land?
Who are they to presume what I plan to do with my land is unacceptable? Or, worse yet, presume to know what my plans may be and judge it by that?

When I see what I feel is an ugly or monstrasorous build I may comment on it to my friends, but I never presume to tell the builder or owner that I am qualified to judge them or demand the removal of said build. I recognize the fact that we all pay a fee for our land and are entitled to use it as we see fit.

If it doesnt fit our vision we move on and make sure we cover the bases to ensure we get what we want.

So in short, if you're concerned, get to know your potential neighbors, learn their vision before you buy. If your main concern is resell and you dont take the time, dont complain later and STFU.

OK rant over. TY for listening. I feel much better now getting that off my chest.
< back to the unobtrusive observer.

P
_____________________
Plumeria...
Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27
Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239
Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle.
Huns Valen
Don't PM me here.
Join date: 3 May 2003
Posts: 2,749
01-01-2005 06:51
Some people act stupidly sometimes and you can put them on ignore. I just did that to someone today on IRC and I am quite happy with the results. :)
_____________________
[ huns? || words || 1TBS KREW || VHI Aircraft || Whitepaper on Aircraft Physics ]

Make yourself and your objects immune to llPushObject().
Rose Portocarrero
Here to look cute
Join date: 23 May 2004
Posts: 168
Happy to be your neighbor!
01-01-2005 07:26
Dear Pahoa;

As your next door neighbor in Eagan, I'll be the first to say how pleased we were that the Silver Wolf store blended so well into the residential aspect of our neighborhood. You all took your time and thought it out well. I don't even notice a store next to us when at home, and I do spend a lot of time on that property.

We were worried that we would see a large, to the prop line box with flashing particles and spinning things right and left.

What we got was beautiful sculpture while you were building the store, and then a very well layed out, low lag tasteful build next to our cabin.

In sum, we couldn't have asked for better neighbors next to our home, and I hope you all STAY there a long time to help protect OUR property as well as the other homes in our sim.

Oh and yes, we DO in fact walk next door and shop. ;-)

Happy New Year!

-Rose
Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
01-01-2005 07:33
*hugs* Pahoa!! I have rarely heard you vent, so I know this must have really gotten to you. You have many fans and admirers (as does the rest of your business group) and I hope you won't let anyone make you upset for long. You are a great asset to the SL community! *HUGS again*! :D
_____________________
*hugs everyone*
Ashlynne Poole
Huggles Queen
Join date: 30 Oct 2004
Posts: 168
*hugs*
01-01-2005 08:07
I don't know you but in reading this i can feel your obvious pain. It is your land after all and build what you want. The fact that you and your group obviously care about the surrounding area says alot.....wish more people did.

Keep your chin up!

*hands you a cookie*

Ash
Elle Pollack
Takes internets seriously
Join date: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 796
01-01-2005 08:08
I probably know who you talked to and what neighboring land he owns. I have a stake in those plots myself which you can probably figure out by checking the owners of certian buildings in that area.

Personaly, I like your build. :) A giant gorilla and a group of giant...are those birds or flying horses? I forgot...may not be natural (the theme of the neighboring land), and some people might not like them there, but I think they're very well built and even rather attractive. (Course, I live on an island of artists and I'm used to a sculpture garden in my back and/or front yard).

I've talked to the person about this before when he asked my opinion of it and I hope he realizes that other people will probably share my view...and I hope I'm right, because I'd really love to see his project succeed. :)
Vestalia Hadlee
Second Life Resident
Join date: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 296
Agree Totally
01-01-2005 08:58
From: Rose Portocarrero
Dear Pahoa;

As your next door neighbor in Eagan, I'll be the first to say how pleased we were that the Silver Wolf store blended so well into the residential aspect of our neighborhood. You all took your time and thought it out well. I don't even notice a store next to us when at home, and I do spend a lot of time on that property.

We were worried that we would see a large, to the prop line box with flashing particles and spinning things right and left.

What we got was beautiful sculpture while you were building the store, and then a very well layed out, low lag tasteful build next to our cabin.

In sum, we couldn't have asked for better neighbors next to our home, and I hope you all STAY there a long time to help protect OUR property as well as the other homes in our sim.

Oh and yes, we DO in fact walk next door and shop. ;-)

Happy New Year!

-Rose



The first thing I see when I login to my land is Pahoa's Eagan store. That store *is* the view from my land.
Bottom line always is, what you do with or on your land is your own business, and if a neighbor doesn't like it, such is life.
That said, I lack sufficient imagination to believe anyone could have complaint with anything this group builds anywhere. Even when the Eagan store was under construction, their time consuming effort to aesthetically blend into the existing neighborhood was delightfully obvious to me and the people I know who live around me. They also happen to be a nice batch of people. They can build anything next to me anytime, and I'll be a happy woman.
Elle Pollack
Takes internets seriously
Join date: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 796
Because there's disagreement under the surface
01-01-2005 12:03
(and because I'm trying to prevent a possible flame war that I believe will only hurt both sides, and can be resolved peacefully if both sides are willing to be reasonable)

This is a snapshot of the view from my building in the neighboring sim (adjusted a bit to avoid a tree in the line of sight.)

What do people think of it? Could you stand to look at it once? Could you stand or even enjoy living next to it?

(The cars are a recent addition which the other landowner is claiming were placed to deliberatly annoy him. I do not know if this is true or not but I do think they're a bit much myself. The rest of the picture, I like)
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
King Kong
01-01-2005 13:21
From: someone
Why, are some people so narrow minded as to think their vision or what they choose to do with their land should take presidence over others?


Indeed hehehe. Note that it is Pahoa Jade who has decided to take this discussion public -- which I didn't -- so I'm happy to tell my side of the story. She's presented her side, but it contains exaggerations and fabrications. Let the community discuss it.

I purchased the Ravenglass sim to make it a planned residential community with an effort to protect the views. It seems there is a crying lack of such areas in SL, with many people moaning and groaning that their views are constantly wrecked by ugly builds. Everyone seems paralyzed and powerless in the face of the bad choices of a few, and it seems like it's time to push back. So I've been pushing back in a variety of ways -- raising the issue of ugly builds on the forums, suggesting that the use of negrate might be in order here and there, and also putting my money where my mouth is by attempting a residential development myself. I'm new and I'm learning so I'm happy to hear any criticism about the development decisions. I'm quite aware that my controversial statements about big ugly builds already on the forum have pre-fueled Pahoa's ire, because she assumed the worst -- that I might organize some sort of public condemnation of her build or a collective negrate of her builds which in fact I had absolutely no intension of doing, have never done, and have merely raised as a possible public tool to solve chronic problems in SL.

I first contacted Pahoa very politely to ask her if she'd be willing to sell part of the water around her substantially sized plot with an island and lots of water. Sometimes people are willing to sell patches like that if you don't build on them -- it's on another sim so it really does no good except to protect the view and water access. She then asked why I wished to buy. I said I was contacting her on behalf of an unhappy customer who was wondering if she should move and sell her land back to me because there were now builds in water that she thought mistakenly was Linden water. (I could note that most land owners wouldn't bother to take up an issue like that, much less buy back land from an unhappy customer.)

The builds then consisted of a dolphin, a pegasus, and a hawk grabbing a fisherman. They're not my taste -- they're kitsch and many good architects would recognize them as such, but they aren't obtrusive and indeed, I'd favor freedom of creativity over some kind of heavy zoning restrictions. Knowing that King Kong lurked on the other side of the parcel, however, it was right to ask whether more large builds were coming. My customer didn't really care so much about the animals, but seeing that a business had taken over the parcel, she wanted to know if a big store was going up. Neighbours are such a wild card that it's a reasonable question to ask -- she wanted to know whether to move and sell before wasting time on a build. All of this was merely an inquiry for information purposes -- to help this customer decide what to do. It was no imposition on Pahoa Jade and Jazzy Jade -- merely an inquiry to help a decision-making process.

Instead of just answering "yes, I plan a big store" or "no, it's just those animals," Pahoa accused me of merely wishing to chop up land and sell it at a high price, and of plopping houses down, crowded next to each other. She had absolutely no basis for this claim. And note that Pahoa has lost nothing. She has her freedom and her land and is building exactly what she wishes -- even adding some platforms with cars in the middle of the ocean LOL no doubt out of spite. Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer.

She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property or she'd know that this is not some get-rich-quick scheme. It has a large commons that keeps at least 10,000 acres unsold and preserved, including a large part of the waterfront. Instead of selling off the island immediately and risk having a laggy club or store, I'm trying to keep it in the community, even buying waterway into the next sim to ensure its view. To make it affordable, sure, there are 1024 or 1536 plots so that people can stay within tier zones. No, not all of us can afford to live the lives of the rich and famous players who have been in the game for 2 years selling their high-tech creative wares. Yes, there has to be room for others in the game.

Pahoa next honed in on the nature of my customer's build -- it "jutted out into the water" she said although of course when you sell waterfront land, you have to sell it with water. I'll leave the public to judge whether that customer made a good build or not -- obviously Pahoa doesn't want judgement of her own group's builds but is freely dispensing judgement of others LOL.

There's a larger issue here not specific to Pahoa. I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. But the Lindens roll out brand-new sims every week. There's plenty of space. If someone inquires about a purchase or an intention merely to protect their own view, it should be understood as that, and not treated as some kind of intrusive crime. SL is extremely volatile and I often find that people are only too happy to sell their land and move on even when they've just bought.

As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines.

I started Ravenglass as an experiment. If you buy a sim and put in beautiful houses and try to make it affordable, can you protect people's investments? I've bought up surrounding land to protect views, I've watched as all kinds of large hulks have gone up around us. This isn't just my problem, but a public problem and one for the Lindens. Can there be residential sims in which people's investments are protected? The jury is still out. One thing I know is that these issue need PLENTY of democratic, public discussion. Many views and interests need to be taken into account. An accusatory attitude and a haughty sense of eminent domain for the older, wealthier players are not the last word on this story.

I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. They've done a fantastic job of making an interesting and exciting and alluring world. They've unleashed their creativity and put out all kinds of whimsical articles, animations, particles, scripts, and so on. They see SL as a kind of never-ending Neverland. You unleash your imagination -- and away you go. But that's not what the game is for everybody.

But on the other side there's another kind of player base who basically just want a replica of RL. They want quaint homes with realistic vistas with beautiful sunsets. They want to go to their patch of virtual real estate with they cyber honies and be left alone. They don't want lag, lights, particles, malls, clubs -- and even the most creative whimsy -- except when they go visit another sim. There are going to be more and more of those kind of players as the game turns from a beta for 10,000 tekkies into a virtual world serving a million customers. Those millions are not creative tekkies. They are customers -- YOUR customers -- and you have to think of their needs and interests, too. I see the land barons caught between these two groups and hated by everyone, although all they have done is pursued business interests and practices that actually serve the mass taste represented by the second group of RL-realistic type of players.

A possible solution is to zone new sims. They zones can be "residential" or "business" or "entertainment" or "experimental" -- and they have to be clustered because the next sim is always right next to your sim and in your view. When people buy next to an 'experimental' sim -- possibly those are the Linden-subsidized ones -- they know they might see flaming particles and King Kong. When they buy in a residential sim, they know their FPS will not be lagged by a club with strobe lights. Player-based zoning will probably prove unworkable precisely because one player involved in a zoning issue is likely to take personal insult and escalate to a flame war, instead of realizing this is a common problem we all share that can be discussed democratically and publicly with solutions found.
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
01-01-2005 13:46
From: Prokofy Neva
My customer didn't really care so much about the animals, but seeing that a business had taken over the parcel, she wanted to know if a big store was going up.


Your customer has no business making such demands.

From: Prokofy Neva
As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines.


So what? It is evident you want make money regardless of your neighbors, and are quick to judge others while shielding yourself from criticism.
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
01-01-2005 13:52
From: someone
Why, after they buy land do they feel they have a right to demand what other earlier buyers around them plan to do with their land?


Excuse me, but in fact Ravenglass was purchased first because it was at auction first. Your purchase followed because it was simply auctioned later -- the public record easily establishes that. But it really doesn't matter. The customer who purchased one lot in Ravenglass had a simple question -- are you going to build big in the water? Because then she could decide to move or not.
From: someone


From: someone
Who are they to presume what I plan to do with my land is unacceptable? Or, worse yet, presume to know what my plans may be and judge it by that?


Er....I dunno...because you put a giant King Kong in the water? That would be my guess.
Not really a presumption, just....a King Kong!

From: someone
When I see what I feel is an ugly or monstrasorous build I may comment on it to my friends, but I never presume to tell the builder or owner that I am qualified to judge them or demand the removal of said build. I recognize the fact that we all pay a fee for our land and are entitled to use it as we see fit.


Well, that's where we disagree! I do think that large ugly builds in the public view are justifiably commented on by the public at large. And I didn't call your build monstrous or ugly or judge it, I asked merely whether we could expect a big store or a big King Kong right next to our water. There's a huge difference. You're making a King Kong out of...a few meters of water.

From: someone
So in short, if you're concerned, get to know your potential neighbors, learn their vision before you buy. If your main concern is resell and you dont take the time, dont complain later and STFU.


Well, er, we did buy there first. In fact an alt of mine had a very friendly conversation on the first day of your build, asking about your boats, whether you built them. And I did inquire politely yesterday what your "vision" was seeing that you were a business, and a business with a King Kong in the water LOL.

It's not complaining later, and no, I won't STFU, it's my world, too : )
Dyerbrook Parvenu
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 28
Hugs All Around
01-01-2005 14:08
*hugs Prokofy*

I think it's great you have raised these issues publicly, even though that wasn't your original intent but I guess your neighbor had to fume.

The picture Elle has displayed looks like a lot of clutter -- too many styles jammed into too much water space, and a King Kong to boot. It's actually an example of how a picture looks worse than the real thing, however, because you can always adjust your draw distance.

The hawk and the fisherman are especially gruesome to look at -- but let's be glad there's no sculpture of entrails on the rocks!

What was once an unspoiled waterway vista where you could sit on your dock and look out to the Linden sea is now filled with kitsch -- I agree. But you should be grateful it's not a huge square laggy club with strobe lights -- it can get worse...it DOES get worse!

There really doesn't seem to be any dispute here. Pahoa has called your development crowded and middle-class, and you've barked at her for being too whimsical in a public space. She's obviously an older, connected player who will get everyone on her side judging from all her *hugs*. Many reading this privately think they actually wouldn't buy land next to King Kong, but because it's Jazzy Jade's King Kong they'll go to the mat!

*Hugs Prokofy again.*

Meanwhile, buyers at Ravenglass know that they have a developer who will not abandon them to the fate of Fay Ray and King Kong, but will try to intercede on behalf of their view concerns.

*Hugs Hugs Hugs Prokofy especially because he is my alt!*
Sparkle Skye
Second Life Resident
Join date: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,016
01-01-2005 14:14
I disagree I think a customer has every right to inquire what is planned so they can make an informed decision. To say a customer has no rights is a rather cavlier attitude, as ultimatley it is the customer that keeps this world going. Without customer the shops would close land would not be bought as there would be no profits. I t does not mean however that the seller is obligated to refund monies unless that was part of the agreement.
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
01-01-2005 14:26
Sure, its ok, if a neighbor has a plan. If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them. Things change.
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Rickard Roentgen
Renaissance Punk
Join date: 4 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,869
01-01-2005 14:48
lol you all like to write way too much. but it was worthwhile writing I'll give ya that. I know starax' work and Pahoa's and Shadows. I'm picky, hard to please and generally cranky when it comes building. It must be perfect! I like all the afformentioned people's builds. oh sometimes they're not perfect ;), but always aesthetically pleasing. Ignore the dumbass.

hehe, I do feel his pain though. he'd really like to have nothing but trees out his window but he doesn't have enough money to buy the land to enforce that. That's where he's coming from, but he's still a chuckle head.
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Dyerbrook Parvenu
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 28
01-01-2005 15:05
Re: he'd really like to have nothing but trees out his window but he doesn't have enough money to buy the land to enforce that. That's where he's coming from, but he's still a chuckle head.


Hehehe ROFL Buying a whole sim and a lot of the parcels in neighbouring sims means he doesn't have enough money ROLMAO.
Dyerbrook Parvenu
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 28
01-01-2005 15:08
Re: "If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them."

Er...Weedy? What part of "impose vision" did you see in this story? I don't see Prokofy imposing any vision, he's instead asking what the neighbor's plans were, full stop. If she is so nervous and skittish that such a merely informative question asked on behalf of a customer sends her into paroxysms of indignation, well, excuse us all for living....

Ummmm....would building a King Kong in the sea perhaps fall into the category of "impose vision"? I dunno....
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
01-01-2005 15:22
From: Dyerbrook Parvenu
Re: "If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them."

Er...Weedy? What part of "impose vision" did you see in this story? I don't see Prokofy imposing any vision, he's instead asking what the neighbor's plans were, full stop. If she is so nervous and skittish that such a merely informative question asked on behalf of a customer sends her into paroxysms of indignation, well, excuse us all for living....

Ummmm....would building a King Kong in the sea perhaps fall into the category of "impose vision"? I dunno....


Ummm

From: Profoky Neva
even adding some platforms with cars in the middle of the ocean LOL no doubt out of spite. Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer.

She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property


Sounds like an imposition to me.
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Dyerbrook Parvenu
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 28
01-01-2005 15:30
Re: "Sounds like an imposition to me."

Ummm...how do you figure it was an imposition? A developer is asked to buy back property and makes an inquiry -- that's an imposition?

But King Kong....that's not an imposition?

And we didn't even raise King Kong at all originally.

Have you all been in this game too long?
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
01-01-2005 15:33
OMG a GORILLA! I demand my money back! What next? OMFG, a STORE!!!!!

The sky is falling. C. Little
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Dyerbrook Parvenu
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 28
01-01-2005 15:42
re: "I demand my money back! What next? OMFG, a STORE!!!!!"

Yeah, that's what that customer did, she wanted her money back. She had bought for the view : ) Some people do that, and they value their tier. They'd like to spend $5 or $8 more on top of the subscription, and not buy a black cat in a sack.

People are funny that way.

But then, they don't own stores all over SL so I guess they have a different attitude than the fuck-you eminent domain-my-freedom-uber-alles that many older players have : ).
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
01-01-2005 15:51
From: Dyerbrook Parvenu

But then, they don't own stores all over SL so I guess they have a different attitude than the fuck-you eminent domain-my-freedom-uber-alles that many older players have : ).


Idiotic statement. My case in point.

From: Pahoa Jade
Well, this person was very insistant that I define our plans. I reiterated that I had told them early on that we were undecided. And I hadnt judged their builds or use of land as they shouldnt mine.

I was told we were obviously some kind of animal lovers and it made them wonder what our plans were. WTH does that mean?


She gave her answer. Clear and simple. You didnt get your way, so you get all pissy and make harsh irrational statements. I understand 100% why she posted here.
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Tcoz Bach
Tyrell Victim
Join date: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 973
01-01-2005 15:52
For what it's worth, in a land dispute, ownership is king unless you are violating the ToS. Any request you entertain from a neighbor is a courtesy.

Two people moved into Natoma/Clara, and didn't like my land. They gave me grief about it. Wanted to know my plans. Etc. I told them I'm sorry but I'm not interested in whatever it is you want me to be interested in (some "planned community" or something like that).

They seemed to believe they had some right to impose their will on mine, and griefed me heavily with pictures of jackasses and the like. The Lindens seemed to side with them insofar as sending an "official" Linden rep to try and mediate the whole thing by way of getting me to make concessions. In the end I simply said that if I'm not violating the ToS, leave me alone.

And that is exactly what happened.

You want to lay down the law, buy a sim. Otherwise anything goes, within the confines of the ToS. You may not like "that attitude", or whatever, but that's just hard cheese in the semi-working world that is SL. Anything else is a waste of breath.
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** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
01-01-2005 16:15
From: someone
They seemed to believe they had some right to impose their will on mine


Funny how a neighbour's simple inquiry about plans, or suggestion to join in something perhaps more low-impact gets transmogrified into "an imposition of will" by the me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL.

Sounds more like YOU are the one imposing your will merely because you bought land, with not a thought in your head about being a good neighbour. The Lindens were right to try to mediate -- but they can't spend their lives doing that.

Yes, the fuck-all attitude is really at a heart of a lot of these disputes. Efforts an initial polite inquiries, efforts to gather information, efforts to suggest alternatives are all greated as "impositions of will" by these hedonistic fuck-you liberals in SL.

This is not a game that is going to have a million customers.

From: someone

You want to lay down the law, buy a sim


Um, I did buy a sim, duh. In fact, I bought MORE than a sim, more like a sim and a HALF for the sake of protecting customers' views.

It's never enough, especially given the prevailing attitude you so well represent.
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
01-01-2005 16:22
From: someone
She gave her answer. Clear and simple. You didnt get your way, so you get all pissy and make harsh irrational statements. I understand 100% why she posted here.


Guess you're continuing to read her one-sided and distorted story here. Anyone could check the conversation logs I guess.

Far from ME making harsh irrational judgements. SHE was the one who jumped to a conclusion that I was some cut-throat land baron pillaging land, plopping down houses, and trying to make a huge killling off a development. Nothing could be further from the truth, if she just read more about the project and saw that it has a completely different ethical basis.

She then began a slam on our community, a slam on the houses, and a slam on this individual customer who innocently started this whole episode merely by inquiring if there was any way to clear the view, purchase the water, or see if worse was to come down the road.

She kept the conversation going and going. There was no "getting my way" that I was seeking and nothing I wanted from her. I inquired about water for sale. It wasn't. I then asked about plans -- was King Kong on the horizon? And she got huffy and started a tirade. She began a critique of everything adjacent to her water although we didn't begin with any critique of her stuff -- which, as I've noted, are deemed "tacky" by those with a greater sense of aesthetics.

We wanted information about plans to settle a business problem -- move or buy back land. She escalated it into a flame on the spot, and took it to forums.

So we're pushing back. We're not afraid : )
 

I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-01-2005 16:44 I started this response a couple of hours ago when there were 14 postings only and ran into computer problemss so I saved and now pasted it.... *HUGS* Pen, Ashlynne, Rose & Vestalia. Thank you for your kind words and confidence in what the outcome of our build will be. ( You Get it! :) ) The purpose of my posting was not to flame. if it had been then I would have used names but I purposfully left them out. Prokofy, If you read my original posting again, you will see as I told you the day we talked that we are not finished with our plans for building and as I told you, yes, that area would be used to build a display for our Sculptures. Obviously as we start to build we will not be able to afford the prims we allow for so many to be out in the future. We plan to build some kind of displaystand/platform rising to the water surface (sorry no design drawings yet) and rotate our display. Please note that of the pictures posted, the island you see is only partially ours. We have an L shaped peice of land that has no buildings on it other than the reflection places at the shore line and a gazebo on the hill. Pretty much the wooded area is all ours and wraps partially around the other side. The compliments on Eagan mean a lot. When we began building there we took into consideration Rose and Vestalia's beautiful builds. I'm glad we accomplished one of our main goals. Which, as I told Vestalia when she visited near the end of our building, "We wanted to create something that our neighbors would not look over at and say "OMG look what they plopped down next door! " But rather wow what a nice build" I'd like to note that tho we've talked to Rose and Vestalia a few times we are not "connected" to them. We met when we moved in. We did the same in Eagan before we built, displayed sculptures in the interim. It looks like it all turned out ok there. I logged into SL before I came here to read the forums and was greeted by IM's regarding this post. Kind words from people I havn't met or know in passing. One really sums it up and tells me they can feel what we want to accomplish in Carlisle. This is from someone who I read often in the forums and is familiar to a great many of others I'm sure. We have never met in world. The visit was prompted by this thread. "I came to visit your place in Carisle *sigh* it looks so tranquil and pretty here. I'm sitting by the campfire right now as I type this to you." Thank you for taking the time to visit and get a first person view *HUGS* To sum it up we are not connected to anyone. Yes, we are old players, we do have many friends (kinda comes with being old players) BUT, we have earned every friendship we have here by being honest, hardworking, concerned people. We have helped many others along the way, not for the fame (we dont have any fame that I know of) but because when we started we had the help of many others. This may be part of the reason we are not rich either. That and the fact we do love toys LOL Which brings me to the "cars" we placed on our land yesterday. The Hammerheads were my X-Mas gift to the group. Yesterday was Shads first day back from vacation and we wanted to play. Well we put down our pads and parked the vehicles there so we could play with our toys. Dont worry we will clean up after ourselves when we get done. Much like X-Mas morning. If we consolidated our group land, maybe we could buy a sim. Does that make us land barons? rich?, or a group of 5 long time friends that pooled our resources so we have more options? This has turned into a he said she said posting. Like the fact you stated to me that your "customer was complaining and wanted her money back. While she states YOU asked her what she thought of the art over the water. I wont get into a silly debate like that here. The point of this post is... 1) A landowner has a right to build as they see fit on their land. 2) Dont presume to know what the outcome will be and judge by your nearsightedness when they have told you they are undecided. Wait and see what they create you may be pleasantly surprised or even thrilled with the outcome. 3) As in this case if you want to speculate on what they may build, take the time to visit other builds they have done. Eagan is a good place to start. 4) The most important, Never assume you have a vision that must be shared by everyone. Do as so many others have done and create your paradise within your property. 5) Get out and see how others have adapted and respected others freedoms. These type of builds are the most beautiful and refresshing finds in SL. If SL was made up of people with all the same visions we wouldnt be a world we would be a comune. The very fact that we are all so different and all have such diverse talents and visions is what makes SL such a wonderful place to be. To address later postings... -I would think that making a "polite inquiry" over and over after it was answered borders on harassment. -Creating a community and a vision of what it will be is a wonderful idea. But do you really think that just because someone has assured you that they will keep to your vision when they buy (not rent) a plot of land there means it will remain so? What happens when they decide to sell? What if they decide they want a store there instead? I admire the task you have taken on of policing your former properties. It will be a big task and no doubt you will face some battles in the future. I wish you luck. -I didnt know you knew so many of us so well to make the kind of assumtions you do. I think we all can see who the "me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL." is. _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-01-2005 16:51 I did not slam your build or homes just pointed out I may not agree with the layout and you accused me of trashing your project. You put a very interesting spin on what you hear from others and this is just the kind of he said she said debate I'm talking about. I have better things to do than to address your misquotes and distortions. The question here is a question shared by many. Our situation is only an example. Does a landowner have the right to feel others around him should conform to what he feels his vision is? _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-01-2005 17:48 Oh dear. Well, despite the fact that I believe you have an alternate agenda against a few people in SL. And that you will say anything to build your project up while tearing others down, I will actually do the right thing here and respond to your post Prokofy. From: Prokofy Neva Indeed hehehe. Note that it is Pahoa Jade who has decided to take this discussion public -- which I didn't -- so I'm happy to tell my side of the story. She's presented her side, but it contains exaggerations and fabrications. Let the community discuss it. One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. :) From: someone I purchased the Ravenglass sim to make it a planned residential community with an effort to protect the views. It seems there is a crying lack of such areas in SL, with many people moaning and groaning that their views are constantly wrecked by ugly builds. Everyone seems paralyzed and powerless in the face of the bad choices of a few, and it seems like it's time to push back. So I've been pushing back in a variety of ways -- raising the issue of ugly builds on the forums, suggesting that the use of negrate might be in order here and there, and also putting my money where my mouth is by attempting a residential development myself. You also stood very harshly against Ulrika on this very matter in another thread. I refer you to: /120/43/29427/1.html Perhaps you have changed your mind? From: someone I'm new and I'm learning so I'm happy to hear any criticism about the development decisions. I'm quite aware that my controversial statements about big ugly builds already on the forum have pre-fueled Pahoa's ire, because she assumed the worst -- that I might organize some sort of public condemnation of her build or a collective negrate of her builds which in fact I had absolutely no intension of doing, have never done, and have merely raised as a possible public tool to solve chronic problems in SL. Yes. You are new and learning and nothing in this statement is wrong nor can it be condemed. From: someone I first contacted Pahoa very politely to ask her if she'd be willing to sell part of the water around her substantially sized plot with an island and lots of water. Sometimes people are willing to sell patches like that if you don't build on them -- it's on another sim so it really does no good except to protect the view and water access. She then asked why I wished to buy. I said I was contacting her on behalf of an unhappy customer who was wondering if she should move and sell her land back to me because there were now builds in water that she thought mistakenly was Linden water. (I could note that most land owners wouldn't bother to take up an issue like that, much less buy back land from an unhappy customer.) In this your statment and Pahoa's is the same. From: someone Instead of just answering "yes, I plan a big store" or "no, it's just those animals," Pahoa accused me of merely wishing to chop up land and sell it at a high price, and of plopping houses down, crowded next to each other. Here I choose to believe Pahoa's statement of what happened over yours. That is my opinion only. From: someone Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer. In all honesty, that is your problem, not hers or ours. From: someone She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property or she'd know that this is not some get-rich-quick scheme. It has a large commons that keeps at least 10,000 acres unsold and preserved, including a large part of the waterfront. Instead of selling off the island immediately and risk having a laggy club or store, I'm trying to keep it in the community, even buying waterway into the next sim to ensure its view. To make it affordable, sure, there are 1024 or 1536 plots so that people can stay within tier zones. No, not all of us can afford to live the lives of the rich and famous players who have been in the game for 2 years selling their high-tech creative wares. Yes, there has to be room for others in the game. Yes. You continue to point out your "wonderful" plan for a community area in many of your threads. What your are attempting is no different than *MANY* others in SL are doing. You are not special, though I do personally wish you luck in your project. :) From: someone Pahoa next honed in on the nature of my customer's build -- it "jutted out into the water" she said although of course when you sell waterfront land, you have to sell it with water. I'll leave the public to judge whether that customer made a good build or not -- obviously Pahoa doesn't want judgement of her own group's builds but is freely dispensing judgement of others LOL. You just put words into Pahoa's mouth that she did not state. Bad form on your part. This whole paragraph of yours should be ignored. From: someone There's a larger issue here not specific to Pahoa. I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. That is a "perception" of yours. I see people moving all the time, old and new. Of course older players do have a knowledge of the world and how things can work in a sim or hurt it. That does not make them special, it only makes them knowledgable. Which is understandable. From: someone There's plenty of space. If someone inquires about a purchase or an intention merely to protect their own view, it should be understood as that, and not treated as some kind of intrusive crime. And if someone honestly is not certain yet what they want to do with their land, they should not be hounded to answer anyone with a specific goal. From: someone As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. If you want a sim to look exactly the way you want it to, then either buy your own, and/or work to get some Zoned Sims in place, and/or work to create a community within an exisiting sim. Otherwise, love it or hate it, you have no right to tell someone else what they can and cannot build on their own land. Of course, I offer one exception to this. And that is I firmly believe if one person's build in a sim is dragging the sim down to performance levels that keep other land owners in that sim from functioning, then that is something that should NOT be allowed. If it is about looks only, oh well, too bad. From: someone I started Ravenglass as an experiment. If you buy a sim and put in beautiful houses and try to make it affordable, can you protect people's investments? I've bought up surrounding land to protect views, I've watched as all kinds of large hulks have gone up around us. This isn't just my problem, but a public problem and one for the Lindens. Can there be residential sims in which people's investments are protected? Yes. Your project. Well, your statements seem to fall under wanting zoned types of Sims. There are threads about this in the Land and Economy forum as well as the Feature Suggestions Forum. It is an issue that has been being discussed since before even you came to SL. A valid discussion in my book. From: someone The jury is still out. One thing I know is that these issue need PLENTY of democratic, public discussion. Many views and interests need to be taken into account. An accusatory attitude and a haughty sense of eminent domain for the older, wealthier players are not the last word on this story. You certainly have a distaste for players that have been around longer than you have. I've been around a year longer than you, and I bet that you have more Lindens than I do. :p Your bias to older players is really something that I can't understand or tolerate. Wisdom in the ways of the world *does* come with age. The SL world is really no different. But even I will admit that wisdom isn't everything. However, prejudice against a poplulation in the world will definitely keep some from *ever* paying attention to you. From: someone I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. They've done a fantastic job of making an interesting and exciting and alluring world. They've unleashed their creativity and put out all kinds of whimsical articles, animations, particles, scripts, and so on. They see SL as a kind of never-ending Neverland. You unleash your imagination -- and away you go. But that's not what the game is for everybody. Not all players that have been around for months, years, etc. Agree with each other on what this world is, was, or should be. Nor do all of them have money, or a "love em or leave em" attitude about the Lindens. You assume too much. From: someone But on the other side there's another kind of player base who basically just want a replica of RL. They want quaint homes with realistic vistas with beautiful sunsets. See my response to your last quote. From: someone A possible solution is to zone new sims. They zones can be "residential" or "business" or "entertainment" or "experimental" -- and they have to be clustered because the next sim is always right next to your sim and in your view. Again, the issue of zoning is one that has been around long before you came to SL. It is a topic with much debate and discussion. It is also a topic that many of these "older players" agree with. That said, it is not the topic of this discussion. This thread was started because a member of the community felt they needed to vent because they felt they were being asked to conform to what another land owner around them wanted, and did not feel this was right but wanted feedback from the community. On that topic I say again, NO one has a right to tell another person what they can or cannot build in my opinion. My *only* acception is if the build puts a strain on the sim to the point that it is unsable (unable to move, walk, build, fly, etc) by others in the Sim. When it gets to that point, the Lindens usually step in though, so I feel confident in this exception. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 17:54 Pahoa, I'm glad you have a notion to build in conformity with land and to build things that are pleasing to others In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong? My customer approached me first about concerns about builds in the water adjacent to hers. As I have already repeated, she raised it first -- I didn't complain about art work that wasn't to my taste or the taste of architects in SL because I, too, would fall down on the side of creativity and freedom over restrictions. I pointed out to this customer that it was just artwork -- just dolphins and not a big building -- and she said she realized that but still had concerns about a potential big build. I didn't somehow incite this person to say what she thought of artwork, I just pointed out it WAS artwork, not some big build (although King Kong is lurking around the bend). No one can read your mind and know what you intend to do -- nor do they really need to know. But you can't back down and say these are temporary displays as a justification -- no one can possibly know that unless they ask, and yet you took offense at the mere asking. From: someone 1) A landowner has a right to build as they see fit on their land. All landowners have that right, and a landowner who is commissioning buildings or selling land has the right to ask on behalf of his customers what to expect nearby -- merely what to expect! -- so that buyers can plan accordingly. It shouldn't have to cramp your style to answer "yes, there's a big building planned" or "we don't know but it's likely just these animals." From: someone 2) Dont presume to know what the outcome will be and judge by your nearsightedness when they have told you they are undecided. Wait and see what they create you may be pleasantly surprised or even thrilled with the outcome. If I were nearsighted, I wouldn't be seeing the hulk of King Kong in the distance, hmmm? Let me send this boomerang right back to you. You made a judgement about me being a rapacious land-baron type merely bent on marking up land, selling it, and bailing out. There was absolutely no basis for that rash judgement, it was based on a long-standing prejudice against "land barons" in SL. Take a closer look and you see a planned development with a commons and care and concern about customers' views. Why don't you wait until it is all finished before pronouncing YOUR judgement? From: someone 3) As in this case if you want to speculate on what they may build, take the time to visit other builds they have done. Eagan is a good place to start. I'm not going to belabor the excellent, superior builds I have sponsored in this game since September. If any of these architects are not too intimidated by the mob justice on the forums, they may step up to the plate and mention that they were supported with land, tier and events for dwell while they built, or supported by promotional contests with prizes, or supported by purchase of their pre-fabs or commissioned buildings. From: someone 4) The most important, Never assume you have a vision that must be shared by everyone. Do as so many others have done and create your paradise within your property. Your constant harping on my supposed "assumptions" or my supposed "vision" are out of place. I'm raising the question of whether everyone in SL is as thrilled with King Kong as you are -- or not. I am not imposing my vision. I didn't put King Kong in the water. You did. I didn't take this discussion to the forums -- you did. I didn't do anything but ask about your plans. And while you may believe you have absolute freedom in this game when you buy land, the person next to you who bought land thinks they have freedom, too, and their freedom is encroached by your unbelievable resistance to merely talking over your plans so that others may adjust accordingly. Let me point out again -- that was ALL that was asked of you! No one asked you to remove anything -- they merely asked to be INFORMED so they could MOVE. From: someone 5) Get out and see how others have adapted and respected others freedoms. These type of builds are the most beautiful and refresshing finds in SL. I've flown all over and studied all kinds of situations. And I see what you are discussing as precious little. You might want to cite some sim names and specific plots. What I see is generally just the opposite -- people not feeling empowered to speak up and ask questions or even to protest because of a culture of fuck-you hedonism that often most cleverly disguises itself as "concern for the community." I'll remind you once again that I didn't have some grand vision or grand plans, just a request on behalf of a customer. From: someone If SL was made up of people with all the same visions we wouldnt be a world we would be a comune Actually, SL's old player base reminds me quite a bit of a commune -- subsidized, self-referential and hostile to newcomers. From: someone But do you really think that just because someone has assured you that they will keep to your vision when they buy (not rent) a plot of land there means it will remain so? What happens when they decide to sell? What if they decide they want a store there instead? Of course not. You have to start somewhere. I view myself as a pioneer trying to push against the tide of helplessness and anger I see in this game over the utter inability to do anything about the ugly build next door. The Lindens aren't going to zone. And players can't really enforce zoning without constant disputes and Linden intervention. So I think there have to be ways of developing alternatives. One of them is to buy a sim -- and even the views on to the next sims -- and ask people to respect the idea of "residential". Tcoz Bach Tyrell Victim Join date: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 973 01-01-2005 18:11 You can take your opinion and apply some of the language you used to it. All this "consideration of neighbors" usually boils down to somebody that moved in and wants somebody else to do something, and when they say "no", they complain like this. You're just one in a very long history of the people who lose these battles, such as they are. The Lindens may choose to mediate, but even they realize, the bottom line is, doing what you want on your land is the nature of the game that they are still trying to get to work. And if you wish to succeed in SL, when you're done complaining, you'll realize it and understand that if it's not your land, whining is pointless. You know, not everybody plays this game to be part of some arbitrary community. Have a nice day and thank you for playing Second Life! Oh and btw...enjoy the view. _____________________ ** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? ** Sam Portocarrero Jesus Of Suburbia Join date: 23 May 2004 Posts: 316 01-01-2005 18:18 Ok I'm going to put in my L$0.02. Ok everyone, in vision with me for a few moments here.... Lets say I am looking for land, I find a nice spot in a upscale woodsy area. This plot is one of about 30 in the area, all surrounded by woods and zoned residential. I buy the plot in the middle for say $250,000. Now, 2 months later the surrounding plots of land are sold, A developer has bought them all. A short time after that, as common practice with developers, all the land he has purchased is 100% clear cut, to make way for large multi million dollar homes. I now own land with a few trees, and a home, in the middle of a field, the builder builds large homes no more then 30ft from my lot line. Here's where the story takes a turn.... Do I.... A) Go back to my realtor, and demand my $250,000 back because the land around me has changed? B) Stay put, love what I have, and make the best of it? C) Consider selling my land, and buying a larger plot somewhere else? D) Stay where I am, sulk and boil about it, and naturally hate the people who buy those homes from the developer? Think about those options, and lets go over the results together... A) Considering that realtors make a percentage from any property they sell (was 3%) I would be demanding that they take money from the original seller, and their share out of their pockets. What do you think the response to your demands would be? B) This would be the cheapest option of them all, as you bought knowing that the other land was available around you, you took a CHANCE that it would not be clear cut, your bet was wrong. This would generally be the best option all the way around. C) If you have the money to purchase other land in a planned community already, or are able to buy enough land of your own, this may be the best option for you. D) This would be the worst option, the purchasers of said properties bought the land for the same general reasons you did, they liked it. Now... Realized that you had the option to ask questions about the other available land, you could have gotten zoning information (moused over it in game) or inquired what it's uses may become BEFORE YOU BOUGHT. The story above applies for both RL and SL, and many of the same principals apply also, please consider your battles and use your brain before you purchase any land in a "main grid" gated community property. - Sam Dominion Custom Homes Edit: There are already planned communities regulated BY THE LINDENS with zoning rules. This area is the sim of "Boardman". No buildings over X meters, they must be private single family residences, and they can not be obstructive in any way. _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 18:24 From: someone when you're done complaining, you'll realize it and understand that if it's not your land, whining is pointless. Well, I don't think an appeal to public reason is whining, or pointless, but I'm sure six months from now I'll realize how idealistic that was. I personally took Pahoa Jade's caustic commentary about our development to heart. She said the houses were too crowded together. Well, I was trying to balance the desire of people to stay within tier range and only spend extra $5 or $8 on 512, 1024, or 2048. That gives you the crowded look, especially on valuable waterfront land. What can you do? Well, not an awful lot. I spoke to one architect about maybe moving a house back, but houses are built to site specifics by good architects, and I wouldn't want to undo that care in someone's work -- it's annoying to try to build a site-specific house on to another property with different terrain -- especially if you are committed to not terraforming everything into a pancake and bulldozing it. So I went around and doubled some other lots and tried to make them less crowded -- but who knows if they will sell? It's always a crap shoot in this game because you can appeal to what looks good, but people don't always care. And I imagine that despite all her indignation, Pahoa will think a little bit twice before she fills up the sea with more King-Kong like creatures. And all her neighbours now know that the cat has been belled -- they can now raise this issue knowing that the way has been paved out of their timidity and sense of powerlessness. They can say -- you know, we enjoyed King Kong for awhile, but could you maybe put him away now except on Sundays? Looking a few sims away, I see a gigantic house, scrips up the wazoo, objects, prims, scripts, particles galore, the thing lit up like Yankee Stadium -- and the owners never online -- never. For weeks. It was fun to build, fun to live in for a day and then...of to World of Warcraft or whatever....meanwhile, they've left a sim at 1000 FPS, despite being brand new. I am for steadily making inroads against this condition. I think it is possible to appeal to some kind of common sense in the public domain. We can ask people to use 256 or 512 textures instead of 1024. We can ask them not to leave their particles/lights/animated scripts running day and night but just have them when they are actually online living in their house. A waterfall that you enjoyed for the day lags the whole sim. It would be nice if there was a way to turn off all this stuff EXCEPT when the owner was actually on the property. Sam Portocarrero Jesus Of Suburbia Join date: 23 May 2004 Posts: 316 01-01-2005 18:35 Oh that reminds me of another thing... While I was reading through this thread I noticed one major key word "sold". If someone decides to develop an area into a community area, and keep it that way, lease/rent out the parcels to customers. This insures that none of the land ever makes it into the wrong hands. Persons that SELL said land in hopes of keeping it a secure clean neighborhood are very misguided, as anyone can sell said land off or build big and ugly without any repercussions. Tenants on most rental property have the same rights that land owners do except usually for an extra club in the profile. Advantages of renting include keeping the ugly and flashing out. Again, consumers think before you buy. -Sam _____________________ Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-01-2005 18:38 From: Prokofy Neva In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong?. Yes I did address this: From: Pahoa Jade Prokofy, If you read my original posting again, you will see as I told you the day we talked that we are not finished with our plans for building and as I told you, yes, that area would be used to build a display for our Sculptures. Obviously as we start to build we will not be able to afford the prims we allow for so many to be out in the future. We plan to build some kind of displaystand/platform rising to the water surface (sorry no design drawings yet) and rotate our display. We did not "build" Kong, he is one of the sculptures I am talking about. It's very easy to check the creator by clicking the item in question and looking at the edit tab for creator. Hmm, you havn't mentioned the number of other sculptures we have on display on the island like Shads Dragon, Starax's Gladiator defending his women from a panther, Cthulhu, or our Jade and Crimson Wolves. is it because they are on our "land" and not the water you were unable to get control of? Well our actions and build in the end will speak for themselves. _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 18:48 From: Pendari Lorentz Oh dear. Well, despite the fact that I believe you have an alternate agenda against a few people in SL. And that you will say anything to build your project up while tearing others down, I will actually do the right thing here and respond to your post Prokofy. I don't have any "alternative agenda" Pendari except pushing back against your friend Ulrika's wacky socialist schemes to tax group purchases, whether non-profit or for-profit, and I've also taken on a few gigantic ugly builds like Blue Burke. I haven't built up my project while tearing others down, I've selected exactly 3 sacred cows that I'm aware of -- Ulrika's wacky communism, Blue Burke's big-ass builds, and the awed genuflection around Neverland. That's all a fair fight, nothing sinister here. From: someone One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. Yes, you are insular, smug, and self-referential and you'll find some new people contradicting you on this. From: someone There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. :) Oh, stop your smug condescention. I don't care how highly respected someone is in their little tight-knit self-referential "community". It's a big game with more and more people coming in it that make up a public larger than your cliquish community. And if that person has misrepresented a story -- completely leaving out the highly salient facts that SHE slammed my development, not visa-versa, SHE made unsubstantiated accusations against me, and SHE put a King Kong in the water LOL. So no need to try to "educate" me -- the facts speak for themselves. If people are so smug and cliquish that they cling to their friend and hug her to death despite the dubious merit of her putting King Kong in the water well....but I do want to remind you again that it was a request for INFORMATION so a customer could MOVE not an "agenda" or a "tearing down" or anything of the sort. From: someone You also stood very harshly against Ulrika on this very matter in another thread. I refer you to: /120/43/29427/1.html Perhaps you have changed your mind? Uh....what's your point? No, I haven't changed my mind about a vicious campaign to tax land barons and group owners and people trying to do big projects. What contradiction do you see here? This seems like a red herring just designed to burnish your image. Anybody with a grain of intelligence can see there is nothing contradictory and if anything, it proves my point about the need to have player-based efforts at zoning and player empowerment in challenging some of those who ruin entire sim views with their thoughtlessness. From: someone Here I choose to believe Pahoa's statement of what happened over yours. That is my opinion only. Well, your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever.... Yes. You continue to point out your "wonderful" plan for a community area in many of your threads. What your are attempting is no different than *MANY* others in SL are doing. You are not special, though I do personally wish you luck in your project. :) Of course I'm not special, duh. I make no such claims to specialness. And there isn't any special community other than people who want to buy land and protect their investment by having views generally free of the kind of inconsiderate, often temporary, annoying big builds that occur in SL. In fact, what was attempted in this entire story was a request for INFORMATION so that someone could MOVE and be PAID BACK. I'll thank you to keep that in mind. From: someone And if someone honestly is not certain yet what they want to do with their land, they should not be hounded to answer anyone with a specific goal. There wasn't any hounding. Sure, there was repeating of the same point over and over again, in an attempt to allay what seemed to be mounting indignation and furor on Pahoa's part over a mere inquiry. And I can see that it's because she came into this story with some baggage. From: someone If you want a sim to look exactly the way you want it to, then either buy your own, and/or work to get some Zoned Sims in place, and/or work to create a community within an exisiting sim. Duh. That's what I'm trying to do, and one of the ways you do that is inquire from neighbors building stuff that customers may object to whether they'd be willing to sell, and also merely asking what their plans are so you can adjust. Common sense, really. From: someone Otherwise, love it or hate it, you have no right to tell someone else what they can and cannot build on their own land. Only in the world of the self-refential smug cliques of SL could an inquiry with the purpose of helping a person decide whether to sell and move be transmogrified into "telling someone what they cannot and can build on their land." This is LAUGHABLE. There isn't a shred of evidence that I've done anything of the kind. Pointing out that King Kong is a big ugly gorilla to be finding in sea water isn't exactly asking anybody to change anything -- and I did this only after Pahoa decided to make this a public dispute -- to what end, I can't imagine, since she suffered no loss, was not asked to do anything, had nothing obstructive in HER view, and was merely approached about INFORMATION to help someone make a DECISION WHETHER TO MOVE. From: someone Yes. Your project. Well, your statements seem to fall under wanting zoned types of Sims. There are threads about this in the Land and Economy forum as well as the Feature Suggestions Forum. It is an issue that has been being discussed since before even you came to SL. A valid discussion in my book. I'm quite aware there's nothing new under the sun, the sun that shone on the privileged beta testers and old players long, long before I emigrated from TSO. But it's ok for a fresh voice to be raised on the issue -- which obviously wasn't solved. From: someone You certainly have a distaste for players that have been around longer than you have. That's silly. I've identified perhaps 3-4 old players who have injected their will into the public domain and challenged it. That's hardly an indictment of the class. I have gone to tutorials and learned from people, I've seen much that I respect in older players and have befriended some of them. So your comment is out of line, and mainly based on your siding with Ulrika over her wacky socialist scheme which I rightly opposed. From: someone However, prejudice against a poplulation in the world will definitely keep some from *ever* paying attention to you. *Shrugs*. I'll try to contain my disappointment. Meanwhile, there are a lot of other people in the game besides a few old players who believe they enjoy the noblesse oblige of eminent domain. From: someone That said, it is not the topic of this discussion. This thread was started because a member of the community felt they needed to vent because they felt they were being asked to conform to what another land owner around them wanted, and did not feel this was right but wanted feedback from the community. Well, could I remind you once again? This player felt needlessly skittish and indignant on the basis of nothing, on the basis of other forum debates, on the basis of bad experiences on her previous sim, whatever. She wasn't asked to do anything other than to comment on whether she intended to have a big build or not. Full stop. Let's not get too precious about this. If she can't take the heat of hearing that King Kong is kitsch -- well, get out of the kitchen as they say. But I didn't even start a campaign for removal of King Kong, I merely invited From: someone commentary. On that topic I say again, NO one has a right to tell another person what they can or cannot build in my opinion. You and others keep confusing a criticism of the aesthetics of somebody's build, much less an inquiry about their plans, with "telling them what to build". I think it pays to make and keep these distinctions. Crimson Sunchaser King Kong on Water Lover Join date: 11 Mar 2003 Posts: 113 01-01-2005 19:17 From: someone SHE made unsubstantiated accusations against me, and SHE put a King Kong in the water LOL. So no need to try to "educate" me -- the facts speak for themselves. If people are so smug and cliquish that they cling to their friend and hug her to death despite the dubious merit of her putting King Kong in the water well....but I do want to remind you again that it was a request for INFORMATION so a customer could MOVE not an "agenda" or a "tearing down" or anything of the sort. From: someone Well, your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever.... From: someone Only in the world of the self-refential smug cliques of SL could an inquiry with the purpose of helping a person decide whether to sell and move be transmogrified into "telling someone what they cannot and can build on their land." This is LAUGHABLE. There isn't a shred of evidence that I've done anything of the kind. Pointing out that King Kong is a big ugly gorilla to be finding in sea water isn't exactly asking anybody to change anything -- and I did this only after Pahoa decided to make this a public dispute -- to what end, I can't imagine, since she suffered no loss, was not asked to do anything, had nothing obstructive in HER view, and was merely approached about INFORMATION to help someone make a DECISION WHETHER TO MOVE. Pahoa didnt put anything in the water I did. Read the owner before you run your mouth. (that covers the 1st ,2ed quotes) If you are not trying to change anything by pointing out Kong( How many times?) , the shut up about it. ("This is LAUGHABLE. There isn't a shred of evidence that I've done anything of the kind. Pointing out that King Kong is a big ugly gorilla to be finding in sea water isn't exactly asking anybody to change anything -- ";) Be glad that your doing this with Pahoa. If it was me with the way you act I'd pave it and have Monster fights every Friday night. Now that we have that bullshit out of the way.. We plan to work with the area/land/water like we did in Eagan. Between now and then it will be the same as it is now. Crimson Sunchaser Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-01-2005 19:30 From: Prokofy Neva Yes, you are insular, smug, and self-referential and you'll find some new people contradicting you on this. That is your opinion though. Personaly I think you are someone who only wants to *make* people see your point no matter what the consequences, but that does not mean that others do not feel differently. :) Ok. First I should clarify what I was refering to in the thread that I linked. I apologize for being vague in that aspect. Here was what you stated and my response: From: someone From: someone Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva How did it come about that Ulrika wanted to leave her social democracy sandbox and come out and affect the rest of the game? Maybe it was just a discussion, but in reality, it was a concerted campaign complete with incitement, closing off discussion when it suited one, and character assassination. Pendari's response: Ok. Then Bob the magnificent builder from Slate, well, if he has any opinions on issues in SL, he just better not come out here and state them. He must only talk to those in Slate because otherwise he is just going to get the Lindens to bow to his wishes. Oh, and Pituca and Jai, sorry you two. But you can only disscuss issues in SL with Taber residents. And sorry Mistress, you are so alluring and persuasive, you need to keep all your opinions about SL in Midnight City. You too Eltee! Because we just know that if you come out with opinions about SL outside Luskwood, the next thing you know we are going to have fur covered signs mandatory in every sim! Oh, and you Ryen. Keep your ideas inside Taratus only. Because NONE of you is allowed to speak up on SL issues because you happen to be a part of a group project. I'm sorry, but if people cannot see how proposterous this line of thought is then I feel there is no way simple me is going to be able to explain it. Found on this page of the thread I referenced: /120/43/29427/4.html From: Prokofy Neva Sure, there was repeating of the same point over and over again, in an attempt to allay what seemed to be mounting indignation and furor on Pahoa's part over a mere inquiry. That is considered "hounding" by a great deal of people. From: Prokofy Neva That's silly. I've identified perhaps 3-4 old players who have injected their will into the public domain and challenged it. That's hardly an indictment of the class. I have gone to tutorials and learned from people, I've seen much that I respect in older players and have befriended some of them. This was your response when I stated: "You certainly have a distaste for players that have been around longer than you have." You may have only "singled out 3-4 Older players", but in your FIRST post in this thread you state both of the following: From: Prokofy Neva I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. From: Prokofy Neva I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. No matter how you cut it, those are your slams on older players. You have obvious contempt. Again I state, As someone who has been here a year longer than you have, I can almost bet you that you have more Linden money than I and many others that even came from beta or just thereafter. I certainly could never afford a whole sims worth of land. But do I begrudge you that? no. Because unlike you, I judge individuals. On their own, and for much different reasons than you seem to. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Lisse Livingston Mentor/Instructor/Greeter Join date: 16 May 2004 Posts: 1,130 01-01-2005 20:04 1. If you are selling "guaranteed views", then your buyers should understand that the guarantee only extends to the edge of your land. Parcels on the edge of that land cannot be sold with that guarantee (and perhaps should be dedicated to the "set aside for community use" program you mention. 2. 'Liberal' is not a swear word. 'Hippy' and 'Artisan' are not insults. From: Pendari Lorentz No matter how you cut it, those are your slams on older players. You have obvious contempt. I am not in the category of 'older player' that Pendari and others on this thread are. I have only been playing for 8 months or so. Yet Prokofy's bias and scorn is evident for me to see, too. I have read this thread several times and of the many people posting here, I count two neutrals, and two batting for his side. The two batting for Prokofy are ... Prokofy himself, and his alt. It's a wonderful vision, to maintain a beautiful residential area people can live within in confidence. However, one of the prerequisites is a project leader who can play well with others. On a totally unrelated note, anyone looked over some of the Second Life Herald's older postings on TSO drama? ;) _____________________ Land Developer, Builder and Real Estate Agent Come to my events! Sundays at 10:00 am: Texturing Contest Tuesdays at 5:00 pm: Land 101 and at 7:00 pm: Trivia Thursdays at 7:00 pm: Land 101 Fridays at 7:00 pm: Primtionary (Other events occasionally scheduled) Read my LiveJournal! Visit my Livingston Properties web site for your Real Estate and Building needs! Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 20:53 Lisse, I can understand that when someone comes in and challenges the comfortable status quo it isn't pleasant. My first dispute in the forums was with your condescending attitude toward me because I chose to take the dwell system seriously, ask a lot of questions about it, and support further inquiry into it. You scornfully turned it away as a "sucker's game" and lorded it over me because you took in rent money each week, and added insult to injury by castigating me because I chose to buy a new sim and try a project -- while still believing dwell is important and still believing playing with just a premium account and a 512 is also important. I tried to mollify you, but unsuccessfully. It just seems very important to you to be right -- so fine, be right. Stay with that if you want. But the game is growing by leaps and bounds around you with the entry of many new people with many different ideas and visions. Land is land. You don't have to be a saint or free from controversy for people to just buy it and try to have a residential community. This isn't Neualtenberg or some kind of hippie commune. Hippie isn't an insult to my mind, it's just a description. It's just a game. I personally am going to retire from forum discussions now. I only entered into this latest fray because Pahoa decided to air her ridiculous indignation publicly. But I've made my point and then some with you and others. Play your game -- nobody has taken a thing away from you. But if you keep up that insular attitude you will find yourself without customers -- just like the Lindens. Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 21:29 From: someone On a totally unrelated note, anyone looked over some of the Second Life Herald's older postings on TSO drama? Let me give you the short form on this everybody, save you miles of reading :) I opposed rampant display of BDSM lots and practices in public lots in TSO, given that there are children as young as 9 in the game informally, and as young as 13 legally. If anybody wants to go on that wild goose chase, they can go read the debates pro and con for allowing BDSM to hang it all out in a game with children in it, as well as non-consenting adults. But this debate isn't relevant to SL because there aren't the same kind of public skilling lots as there are in TSO, and of course, there aren't children -- in theory anyway. It is not a debate about tolerance of lifestyles, it's a debate about exposing them to minors. Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-01-2005 22:43 From: someone I personally am going to retire from forum discussions now. Hmmm I see the TSO Refugee took this opportunity to assault my associates in my abscence. Unfortunate, Prokofy as you will note yes I and my associates are older players. However, based on the illiteration of the incident from my associates I had been requested to in essence to stay my thoughts and opinions as I already have a formulated opinion of you from past experience. However this last debacle of responce from you cut to a point of where I had to speak up but not in reference to the aforementioned situation of the land. From: someone I only entered into this latest fray because Pahoa decided to air her ridiculous indignation publicly. But I've made my point and then some with you and others. Based on past experience with you and your indignation with "OLDER" players your contempt alone is why you entered in this "FRAY". Would you like me to enlighten you as to this point. It was mainly because Pahoa never outted you in her initial post you did that all on your own. Had you kept your mouth shut you would have never looked the fool as you do now talking in circles and basing things on you "YOUR" opinion of things. Pahoa gave you an answer you continued to inquire which bordered on Harrassment. I have known Pahoa for almost a year and a half now and she doesnt speak out unless she is to a point and you Mr. Prokofy crossed that with your indignation. So did you really get your point across as I am still flabberghasted as to what the point was. Inquiring is an innocent thing. However, to continually do so because you feel your Buisness relys on it, is considered harrassment. I basically told Pahoa when this all was explained to me. I told her to report you for harrasment as you were infringing on her and the groups rights to do as we wished with our land. Again what was your point..... was it? A)I'm a land barron and I am trying to make money selling plots of land to Newbies B)I'm a Self ritious indignation anus attempting to impose my will on others C)I'm a concerened citizen of Second Life and being such I want to make sure UGLY builds do not exist. Your Choice pick one as I have more that possibly could apply as well Either way Prokofy your point was not made you talked in circles which from your long drawn out points of the past is a steadfast ploy of yours to bore people to tears with idle banter and confuse them from the actual point of the post. So, My point is this Prokofy, Your buisness is your buisness I have stayed out of this for the most part. However, I will not stand idly by when you rant in circles and try to defame a friend and associate. If you have issues with your customers because you make grandious promises that you cannot keep is neither my nor anyone elses problems in Second Life. If I as a Co-Founder of Jade Wolf decide to put out 5000, 10 meter by 10 meter cubes and stack them to the moon. It is none of your concern nor do you have the right to even inquire about them as we pay for that land and its our choice since we "PAY" for the right to utilize that space and neither you nor anyone else can TELL us what to do with it. Consider that an indignatious reply however the point is basicly GTFOI. So, in closing to you MR TSO Refugee, maybe you might ought to reconsider your stance on things as your point was never made your concern was only for yourself and if you were being a concerend neighbor you would have respected Pahoa's responce to you whether it was short or even vague as that is her right. Give respect you will get it and in this situation you gave none. Have a Nice Day Sincerely, Shadow Weaver , Co-Founder of Jade Wolf, SLVISIONS, and AN ANCIENT. _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Alexa Hope Registered User Join date: 8 Dec 2004 Posts: 670 01-02-2005 02:21 I have just visited Carlisle to see for myself, before posting on here. Although you should be able to build whatever you wish on your land, personally I would not like to look out from my plot and see the gorilla. A lot of people, me included, want to have a pleasant, natural view from their land and I can understand why the person sold the plot back to the owner of the sim. You may wish to discount the view of a newbie but nevertheless this is my opinion. Happy New Year Alexa Starax Statosky Unregistered User Join date: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,099 01-02-2005 07:33 Can you all take a moment to consider King Kong's feelings in all of this. Monkeys have feelings to!!! Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-02-2005 07:40 Dont worry hun, I went and sat with him today for a bit. We had a nice talk and he is feeling much better now. He promised not to go stomping anyone or grabbing passing water craft or air craft from the sky. :) _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Siobhan Taylor Nemesis Join date: 13 Aug 2003 Posts: 5,476 01-02-2005 07:40 I've not been there to look yet, so apart from posted pics, I have no idea what the land looks like in those sims. However, I have to ask how someone can put Starax's work down by comparing it to the work of 'the best builders in SL'...? Most people would probably agree that Starax IS one of the best builders in SL, certainly in the top half dozen... Next thing, you'll be calling Maxx or Lordfly amateurs... Sheesh! _____________________ http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/ Ursa Falcone Rocket Scientist Join date: 26 Mar 2004 Posts: 1,989 01-02-2005 07:57 King Kong can come live with me...Right off my dock! I will sleep on his head. Loving the King since 19?? _____________________ From: someone Jeska Linden: I'm closing this thread because it's obviously overstepped the boundaries of useful conversation, even for the off-topic forum. katykiwi Moonflower Esquirette Join date: 5 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,489 01-02-2005 08:24 This is an old old dilemma here in SL, one that has also cropped up with controversy on the forums. The two schools present the same arguments and there is a call for zoning or Linden intervention. Yes there are some land owners who deliberately build a terrible build or block a water way just to force neighboring owners to buy them out at exorbitant prices but Pahoa, Shadow and Crimson (hi Crim! :) ) are the some of the nicest members in SL. Crimson was my neighbor for a long time in Mauve and I know with certainty that he is very concerned with maintaining the beauty of a build. There is a solution to this problem. If you want total control of a sim then buy your own island sim. There used to be Linden enforcement of theme sims such as Darkwood, but that was stopped. Even now when people move into Ravenglass they can build a club or hold BINGO events every hour 24/7 if they choose. You cant stop that or control it. You will learn that things change quickly in SL horizon and the only thing you can count on is that there will be change. Builds up, builds down..overnight. Sometimes a build can annoy you, such as that giant man seated on toilet that pops up now and then, but there is nothing that can be done except to ignore it. By the way, Crim's Kong was my neighbor for a while, as was his dragon, and I thought it was a lot of fun! Kong stood guard over our pretty cove at Mauve Falls protecting us all. :) Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 12:12 Yesterday I felt like retiring from the forums, and even pressing "release" on my land. But after sleeping on it, I thought -- but I have paid, year-long subscriptions and investments, and of course I should stay and continue my business in the face of difficulties. As Hiro Pendragon said in another thread, this is a very high-risk environment in SL and it's not for the faint of heart. One of the great liabilities is the "mob justice" meted out on the forum, as one player put it to me. I continue to feel that public discussions should not be confused with mob justice, but I'm beginning to wonder. Shadow seemed to think that I "outed" myself by answering this public but anonymous post, but most people would have figured it out anyway after Elle's post. I don't see any need to abandon this avatar, despite many people's hurt feelings, and I'm going to soldier on. If you don't like Prokofy, you can always get to know one of my nicer alts. The reason I can go on is this tiny newbie voice, this brave little post in a thicket of scorn and derision from older players. To wit: From: someone Although you should be able to build whatever you wish on your land, personally I would not like to look out from my plot and see the gorilla. A lot of people, me included, want to have a pleasant, natural view from their land and I can understand why the person sold the plot back to the owner of the sim. Thank you, Alexa, God bless you. You voiced what many think and wish and you should feel empowered. Given the high temperature of self-righteous indignation in all of these posts, I have to reiterate: 1. I asked Pahoa repeatedly and restated my concerns not because I was hounding her, but because I was trying to allay what seemed like really startling over-reaction and indignation over a simple request. 2. The person who inquired about the water didn't sell back precisely because she could be assured by this entire discussion that a) King Kong isn't moving to this side of the bay and b) there isn't some huge store to appear. 3. Lisse, in these posts I have taken on 3-4 players who have had a long ride without much of a challenge. My statement about the "beta test love fest with the Lindens" is actually an apt description of a common on-line game phenom described as the "fanboyz" problem elsewhere. It comes with the territory. All those adulatory bowing-and-scraping "Lindens We Luv Ya" type of posts that came in the wake of this latest hardware crashes are typical, and it helps to both poke fun at this phenom and push back. When Verizon or Time Warner mess up or crash, you don't see customer boards filling up with messages like "Hugz TW luv ya" or "Here's a Christmas cookie, Verizon". Irate customers are irate customers, and it used to be in the old American business lexicon, "The customer is always right." I'll remind you that this dispute began because I went to bat for a customer, and the dispute with Ulrika began because I went to bat for the concept of group projects, which I had, not being punished. That's not some kind of sinister "agenda," it's just representing an interest -- maybe not yours, but try to rent out YOUR property with King Kong in your tenants' face and then come back and talk. 4. I do not sell land with any kind of "guaranteed view" or any such false claim. Buyers are grownups. And I've been highly flexible in solving existing view issues with buyers as they know, even willing to buy back. I take Sam's advice to heart and I will definitely try the "rental only" idea on my next project. It's true that at any moment Blue Burke could swoop down and buy the whole bunch of lots and put in a store -- that, frankly, was my worst fear going into it. But I've talked to Blue Burke, and now that he's a proud house owner himself with purchased waterway rights, and had a chance to think of other issues I've raised, he isn't really so inclined. Really, he, Anshe, and others have "enough". There are so many new sims, and so much of their unsold land, that they don't need to invade what is clearly a residential sim and carve it up. Maybe when the land market is less soft for sellers, that could change, but we can only try, right? My experiment isn't the first of its kind nor the last. Many will have to be tried, and obviously in the face of tremendous intolerance, suspicion, and scorn from some old players. Who cares? When I first flew around SL, I thought it was fun to land on a dragon's head and play in a waterfall. But when I invested in land, suddenly I had to turn around my perspective. A waterfall causes lag. A dragon's head isn't fun to look at day after day. It would never have occurred to me to start any fight over King Kong. I didn't think it was a wise design decision, and that has NOTHING to do with the actual workmanship or artistry of Starax -- who is obviously excellent. The fact is, King Kong belongs not in WATER but in the JUNGLE. I saw some of my neighbours sitting on his arms enjoying a chat, and I realized that some people would enjoy this whimsy. But they enjoy it more when they fly to it for a visit, not stare at it off their porch. It's OK to voice these concerns. Pahoa engineered a stampede of support for King Kong among the five percent of players who are her friends AND post in forums. But there is a huge population out there, and Alexa has indicated that underneath all that surface adulation, there is the common-sense issue of people wanting to look at natural land -- full stop! Among the more inane comments is a carping about the use of the word "build" or assignment of the issue of King Kong to Pahoa Jade. Obviously we can look at the object creator -- Crimson. And obviously we see it's sculpture. The term "builds" is generic about stuff in the water. As for Pendari's comments about the whole Ulrika debate, that's too tiresome to rehearse here. Go and read that thread and continue the debate back there if you wish and try to trap me in contradictions all day if you want -- it's a great sport! -- but the fact is we all know Ulrika *campaigned vociferously* to affect Linden policy -- namely taxation of barons and group project leaders -- and that's way, way different than merely "starting a discussion". Why? Because she used her perch from Neualtenberg, with its avowed social democratic community, and its avowed subsidized Linden status, to get the visibility and clout to seek her way. Let's just hope the Lindens have the good sense to stay FAR away from this idea -- they're already losing Schwanson over poor service issues -- no need to club people like him with retroactive taxes, too. Many people have said "well go buy a sim" -- uh, yeah, I tried that. Actdually buy FOUR sims might be a better piece of advice LOL. Buy a private island? Not on your life. Go read all the posts about the buggyness of private sims. Anyway, who wants to try residential experiments off the grid? It's much more useful to try them on the grid with telehubs nearby -- those are more widespread game conditions. Let me round out this post by noting once again: A. No one asked Pahoa Jade and her group to *change a thing*. They asked about *intentions*. This caused an uproar. That kind of oversensitive reaction is displayed for all to see now. It shows the Lindens what a hornets nest this is, and it seems like they've fled from the problem, but I'm not going to, and the customer isn't, either, so it seems this gorilla-in-a-teapot is going to blow over. If Shadow files some kind of "abuse" report and the Lindens fish out the IM transcripts, I'm totally confident that it will be rapidly evident that there is no harassment, merely an attempt to find out intensions in a wall of oversensitive suspicion. B. I personally intend to do nothing but fly around the lovely Starax creatures or steer a boat around them. I don't intend to negrate, to get into fractious Hatfield-McCoy type of disputes, or do anything but trying to keep a sim that I bought residential to the best of my ability. C. I hope Pahoa and co. get a lot more dwell as people come out and look at these creatures. They can form their own judgement as to whether they have the same beauty they had in a falls in Mauve. It's not a question of whether the people running them are "nice" or "my old neighbors" or "trusted old players". Try to look at it dispassionately as a problem for these waterway sims with lots of islands -- they don't really fit. Jauani Wu pancake rabbit Join date: 7 Apr 2003 Posts: 3,835 01-02-2005 12:18 :eek: :eek: :eek: OMG! KING KONG! EOM :eek: :eek: :eek: _____________________ http://wu-had.blogspot.com/ read my blog Mecha Jauani Wu hero of justice __________________________________________________ "Oh Jauani, you're terrible." - khamon fate katykiwi Moonflower Esquirette Join date: 5 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,489 01-02-2005 13:01 Prokofky, Its not that there is a blind "love fest" with the Lindens as you characterize it, it's that we have seen the amazing growth and development of SL over the past year. Consider all the content that exists, and all the things you are able to do and create in SL; it's an undeniably wonderful accomplishment. Nothing is perfect, and each step along the way requires ironing out the bugs, but still new content is added regularly. And these are major content additions such as streaming music and animations. As far as private island sims and the bugginess concern, I have a private island sim and its all good as far as I am concerned. I love it and have never regretted my decision to get one. I think concluding that veteran members feel scorn or intolerance for new members is a bit harsh. I know I certainly love having all the new members in SL and the entire community benefits from their creativity and ideas. Try giving us a chance too! :o I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Crimson Sunchaser King Kong on Water Lover Join date: 11 Mar 2003 Posts: 113 01-02-2005 13:01 Just incase anyone forgot we are talking 2 different sims here. As far as I'm concerned you can build what you want in Ravenglass. As Katy (Hi Katy) said I'm easy to get along with. If you treat me with the respect you want then you will get it back. You may have noticed I'm not a "fanboy" even though I started the game in march of 03. As far as paying for the game, we all do or have so I dont want to hear that arguement. I don't give a shit if you like Kong or not. I do,I placed him there and I wont move him because someone dosent like his looks. He was put there as a joke to Shadow when he came back. I won't be taking him down just for Prokofy Neva.You keep saying Kong dont matter cause he's around the corner but how many times have you bitched about him in these posts? 7-8 now? The other things near Ravenglass were put there on OUR land because we like them. If you want to push it I own 3/4s of the stuff Starax has made. I could fill that plot with them. Last but not least I repeat I OWN ALL Of THE ART... Not Pahoa, Not Shadow. You bitched at Pahoa without even checking to see who owned them. Next time know what your talking about before you start. You said more than once that Pahoa Placed them there. Crimson Sunchaser Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530 01-02-2005 13:16 Okay, I gotta quote Siggy here... I couldn't resist: PSYCHE! KING KONG DIED FOR OUR SINS! :D _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 14:28 Crimson, Everything you've posted was already understood long ago, if you check the thread. Everybody LONG SINCE clicked on the animals and saw you were the owner. It's merely that Pahoa ventured to speak on behalf of your group and take up the issue of the builds placed and represented the issue on behalf of your group. She didn't say "IM Crimson, he's offline" -- she herself embarked on commenting about them and their placement in-world and then taking this once-private dispute on to the forums. So take up with Pahoa directly the issue of how your ownership/art/choices were represented. I can't see King Kong. Thank God! Well, OK, I can see him WAY in the distance because he's THIS BIG but I change my draw distance, I'm fine. I use King Kong in this discussion as a metaphor, a simile, a whatever all those things are that we learned in English class, to make a point: KING KONG LIVES. King Kong is always waiting to COME TO YOUR HOME. King Kong roars! And I will come to LOVE King Kong! Because it can get worse in SL and DOES! I'm going to bite my tongue for now...but big ugly builds that make King Kong look like Tiny Tim tripping through the tulips are right around the corner! *Bites tongue*. I'm taking everyone's advice to heart and I'm figuring -- if you don't like the SL weather, wait 5 minutes, it will change! Meanwhile, I bought some more overpriced water from a fellow who had just bought overpriced water and put it up for resale understanding that water gets really pricey in an area like this where people are arguing and trying to protect views! Great deal, fella! Do I need to repeat it again? I need to repeat it again. 1) No one asked you to remove anything, Crimson, Pahoa, and Shadow. Repeat: nobody asked you to move, change or do a thing. They asked if water was for sale -- people sell patches of water. It isn't. End of story. 2) Someone who saw the placements of sculptures asked if they could get their money back and move -- THEY WERE WILLING TO SELL AND MOVE, THEY DIDN"T ASK YOU TO SELL AND MOVE. Let's repeat it again in slow-motion: THEY...WERE...WILLING...TO...MOVE...THEY...DIDN'T...ASK...YOU...TO...SELL...AND...MOVE. 3) This extreme action was put to a halt by my intervention, asking Pahoa what the general plans were, finding out that they didn't involve a big store, weathering all her insults about our development, brushing aside her bitches about my customer's build, etc. 4) Nobody has lost a thing or suffered at all, everyone is continuing to play their game. EOM. 5) No one is going to negrate, attack, or pressure your builds your land your group or you or try to take away your right to do what you want on your own land. Indeed, we direct the considerable traffic out there now, without further comment, towards the King Kong because many people want to see him now and you should be getting LOADS of dwell LOL. 6) Don't confuse a critique of your design and style choices and community discussion of what people like to look at when they set up residences, with some kind of concerted attempt to make you change or move or do anything. When you put big things out in public, expect comments. Dallas Moreau Registered User Join date: 7 Dec 2004 Posts: 146 01-02-2005 14:57 "I'm easy to get along with" but "I don't give a shit if you like Kong or not"? Think about that. I agree, what you do with your land is ultimately up to you. If another person keeps after you about it, that person is not only wrong, but rude. But there's also this: Bringing this issue to the forums is the best way to guarantee an unsatisfactory result. You bring it to the forums to embarrass a person, to focus scorn on him or her, to try to turn the community against the person. You don't do it to negotiate or try to solve the problem. The person who brought it here shouldn't have stooped to that; the person who responded shouldn't have belittled himself. This issue should've been kept between the parties involved. If you couldn't solve it, you might have had a cooling-off period before trying again. Or you could've sought mediation, or a number of other things. Doing it this way means that one side or the other is bludgeoned in some sort of twisted popularity contest. Finally, the newbie/established player thing is very clear in this thread. As someone who has been condescended to a number of times inworld on that issue, I'll say fuck that. It doesn't belong anywhere in SL. I happen to like the Kong statue because it shows some talent, not because it's made by a particular person. I don't like it standing in the middle of the water somewhere because putting it there is kitsch, as was said. But that's just my opinion, and the owner has the right to do what she wants with it. Not because it's made by somebody who is supposedly "famous" nor because she's somebody who is supposedly "respected", but because it's a native right given to all of us. Please tell the rest of us where this elite, "tight knit community" is. For many of us who haven't been around that long, SL is a sprawling, chaotic place and I don't see much difference in merit or quality between the builds, products, or behavior of "older" players and newbies. I treat new people and people who've been here awhile the same way. If that's a mistake, tell me, and I'll be on my way. _____________________ Crimson Sunchaser King Kong on Water Lover Join date: 11 Mar 2003 Posts: 113 01-02-2005 15:22 From: someone As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. Er....I dunno...because you put a giant King Kong in the water? That would be my guess. Not really a presumption, just....a King Kong! Well, er, we did buy there first. In fact an alt of mine had a very friendly conversation on the first day of your build, asking about your boats, whether you built them. And I did inquire politely yesterday what your "vision" was seeing that you were a business, and a business with a King Kong in the water LOL. In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong? If I were nearsighted, I wouldn't be seeing the hulk of King Kong in the distance, hmmm? ((From page 3))--- And I imagine that despite all her indignation, Pahoa will think a little bit twice before she fills up the sea with more King-Kong like creatures And if that person has misrepresented a story -- completely leaving out the highly salient facts that SHE slammed my development, not visa-versa, SHE made unsubstantiated accusations against me, and SHE put a King Kong in the water LOL. So no need to try to "educate" me -- the facts speak for themselves. If people are so smug and cliquish that they cling to their friend and hug her to death despite the dubious merit of her putting King Kong in the water well....but I do want to remind you again that it was a request for INFORMATION so a customer could MOVE not an "agenda" or a "tearing down" or anything of the sort. Well, your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever From: someone Everything you've posted was already understood long ago, if you check the thread. Everybody LONG SINCE clicked on the animals and saw you were the owner. If you had dropped it LONG SINCE I wouldn't have said it again. Read from page 3 quote on. Was that LONG SINCE? Read the next to last one. The "your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever" Yes Whatever. Dallas I stand by what I said. I don't care what people think of it. It's there for our group. Had someone asked me nicely to move it I may have.(as Katy said..I am a nice guy)(at least I am until someone steps on my or my friends rights) I even had 2 people rate me because Kong was there (before all this started). I'm done being nice. I was when this moron kept bugging Pahoa. Prokofy didn't have a problem bringing Blue Burkes name to the forums, why would he have a problem if someone brought his here? I was on that night he kept after her. Pahoa and I were on Voice. Had he stopped when he said then none of this would be here. Crimson Sunchaser Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-02-2005 15:34 From: Prokofy Neva Funny how a neighbour's simple inquiry about plans, or suggestion to join in something perhaps more low-impact gets transmogrified into "an imposition of will" by the me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL. You talk a good game Prokofy, but you've already stated in other threads what your views are towards applying pressure on people to get them to bow to your whims. If you need your memory refreshed you advocated people starting grassroots campaigns to neg rate people whose builds you disapprove of. In Pahoa's shoes, had I read that thread, I'd likely have reacted the same way. Tcoz made a great post in this thread. Read it over and over again until it sinks in. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Sensual Casanova Spoiled Brat Join date: 28 Feb 2004 Posts: 4,807 01-02-2005 17:16 From: Pendari Lorentz One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. :) Pen, I usually agree with everything you say on the forums because a majority of the time they are very calm and I notice that you try and look at both sides to every story, but this comment here, bugs the hell out of me... Just because someone has been here longer doesn't give them any right to do things to others and a new player should NOT be afraid to stand up to them just because the date they were born. (I am not saying anyone in this thread did worng, I am a little off topic and just directing these comments). You are right some people do run in a tight group... and I for one have stood up to them many times, and yes there are consequences, instead of one person mad at you, you get ten... big deal! But, there are still people like me out there that will not judge based on the opinion of others and not with out getting to know you... it is wrong to try and discourage people to stand up to an "older player" .... just because they are older doesn't mean they are perfect. _____________________ Sensual Designs & Animations Sensual Productions Teleport to Sensual Designs & Animations Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 17:35 From: someone If you need your memory refreshed you advocated people starting grassroots campaigns to neg rate people whose builds you disapprove of. Yep, I sure do advocate this as a possible tool to use in extreme circumstances. Sure do! But obviously "grassroots" consists of more than one person, correct? So there'd have to be a community a people or at least a group of 10 who would take this upon themselves, correct? Am I joined by 9 other people who aren't my alts? No. Are there too many nervous nellies at the gates? Yep. Is it still worth discussing? Yep. Did I advocate it at any time for Pahoa Jade and Crimson and the others? No. Did I negrate Pahoa, Crimson, etc. others? No. First, I opened up a conversation with them about whether they planned to build big, so that someone who wanted me to buy back their land could have me pay them, and they could move. Now, was that a grassroots campaign to negrate? No. Am I afraid of advocating grassroots campaigns to negrate? No. Why? Because there are certain intractable situations controlled by absolutely unaccountable assholes that the community should feel empowered to deal with. Everybody has a negrate button. Use it! Is it necessary in this case with Pahoa? No. Pahoa said she isn't building a big store. She's put out some animals to display. They may not last forever. But at least people can maneuver boats around them. Next question? Obviously you first try low-key methods -- inquiry, discussion, seeking of a compromise, and so on. I can remember a situation where I and some neighbours in an area tried discussion, offering money, offering swaps of land, etc. etc. In the end, the person got a negrate because of their intractable refusal to understand that they had completely blocked access to land with a gigantic build that had no place in what had already been purchased by someone as a residential sim, and filled up by houses. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using your negrate. That's what it's there for. Or did you think it's only supposed to be used once a year on a griefer? But why? People are horrified at the thought of negativity! Especially group negativity! Horrors! But turn it around and you see it is a highly educational tool to help people out of their horrible frustration and helplessness in this came. If Crimson collected 20 negrates on his King Kong, he might have to think twice about it. If he collects 20 posrates, may the best man win. Negrates are eminently reversible. I can and do reverse them. Negrates should become an actively used function in the game on builds and people should seek to improve the quality of builds and avoid the basic annoying builds that everyone can agree on: lagging, dragging down a sim FPS with excessive scripts, blocking access to land, blocking a view substantially. From: someone Tcoz made a great post in this thread. Read it over and over again until it sinks in. Er, could you raise the intellectual level of your discussion slightly? People don't believe something because they repeat it mindlessly and it "sinks in". You attempt to use logic and facts for persuasion if you want to be taken seriously. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 17:53 Prokofy, Here is some rope and a shovel. I will cut you some more slack with the rope because you are doing a great job of hanging yourself. The shovel is for the pit you are digging for yourself. You may as well return the nose clip too, because reading your posts, it's quite obvious your S--T don't stink. You will say anything, twist any comment, babble on in endless paragraphs about your self appointed zealot for harrassing anyone who's build does not meet your standards. SL is about TOLERANCE, but reading your posts, you'd rather shove your ideals down everyone's throat. Snide remarks about age, or liberals etc, get you nowhere and your purpose is diminished. Go ahead, push the revert button. you will do the community a favor. _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 18:08 From: someone Prokofy, Here is some rope and a shovel. I will cut you some more slack with the rope because you are doing a great job of hanging yourself. The shovel is for the pit you are digging for yourself. You may as well return the nose clip too, because reading your posts, it's quite obvious your S--T don't stink. You will say anything, twist any comment, babble on in endless paragraphs about your self appointed zealot for harrassing anyone who's build does not meet your standards. SL is about TOLERANCE, but reading your posts, you'd rather shove your ideals down everyone's throat. Snide remarks about age, or liberals etc, get you nowhere and your purpose is diminished. Go ahead, push the revert button. you will do the community a favor. I'm surprised at such a nasty post coming from such an honorable player as yourself who I've heard described as an all-around decent guy. What exactly is your beef here? That I stuck to my guns and advocated negrating? That I approached a neighbor to protect a view? That I stood up against the smug, self-referential, cliquish old players? Er...WHO is the community, Weedy? It's you and your posse? You speak on behalf of "everybody"? Nobody else can be heard? I would urge you to provide one shred of evidence that I have ever harassed anyone over a build. Using a negrate is not harassment. It is legal under the TOS. The Lindens could never, ever accuse anyone of harassment for using a legal function under the TOS. Let's revisit the 7 negrates I have awarded in my short time in the game. -- At least 2-3 are accidents during attempts to press on a name and give someone a triple rating in a laggy club, then crashing and not being able to find that person. If anyone feels they are negrated falsely, they can always contact you. I've never had anyone ask me anything and those people were either trials or never came online to worry about it. -- 2 were to griefers -- widely acknowledges as such by all concerned, including Lindens. One had some kind of camera that followed us around on a property. Another built mile-long strings of wood way up into the air and bounced people around with scripts. -- 2 negrates went to one of those controversial security-script people who bounce you way back home merely because you accidently went on their property while getting lost outside the telehub. -- 1 negrate was used for a building that marred the land and blocked access and made land unusable and unsellable. Now you may not have 7 negrates in your possession, but I hardly think this qualifies me as quite the menace to the community that you'd like to portray me as. Even if I had 47, so what? Awarding negrates for building is legal under the TOS. Sure, I tend to answer in long-winded paragraphs, especially when parsing sentence by sentence through somebody's equally long-winded retort. Skip over it if you don't want to read it and read my lips: I didn't harass Pahoa or do anything to her actionable under the TOS. If SL is "about tolerance" why this constant heedless hedonistic slash-and-burn approach to so many builds? Heaps of burning slag formerly known as pretty natural sims litter the Lnden servers. If SL is about "tolerance," why the "hanging sheriff" approach? Or did you think you can enforce you values on other people through forums mob justice? I don't respond to threats and incitements to commit suicide, thank you very much. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 18:17 From: Prokofy Neva I don't respond to threats and incitements to commit suicide, thank you very much. From: Prokofy Yesterday I felt like retiring from the forums, and even pressing "release" on my land You said it, not me. Need a bigger shovel? _____________________ Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-02-2005 18:22 I am not "on either side"... but have been reading this in its entirety. I'll limit my comments to one thing. "SL is about tolerance." Who the hell says so? I flat out reject that assertion. My "inworld game" has zero to do with tolerance. It has to do with "me and my interests" - nothing more. Now, my interests happen to shift and change - from minute to minute at times. But, tolerance is nowhere in my game equation. Some other people's games involve socializing, virtual sex, political crap and commercialism. Good for them. Just don't force that on me. Someone once told me that SL is whatever you want it to be. Since you can make, script and design whatever you want given the time and effort, there is no need to buy land or anything else technically. It is absolutely possible to be a hermit in the game --- tolerance has ZERO to do with SL if you don't want it to be a factor. (Note: grieifing is NOT the opposite of tolerance.) You can now return to your discussion .... I will return to my game where tolerance has zero place. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 18:31 From: someone I would urge you to provide one shred of evidence that I have ever harassed anyone over a build. Ok. Let us get this right... You merely asked Pahoa a simple question? She answered with a simple " I don't know just yet". Then for some reason unbeknown to yourself, she comes here and posts. I have never meet Pahoa before yesterday, but I dont need a degree in rocket science to understand that someone would merely rant in the forums because someone asked a simple question of concern. Reading your posts, it immensly obvious, your contempt is the issue of this thread. Not King Kong, or your customers, or your nieghbors. You don't have a humble prim in your avatar. For someone who can't accept criticism, you sure like to dish it out. _____________________ Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-02-2005 18:33 From: someone Originally Posted by Pendari Lorentz One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. From: Sensual Casanova Just because someone has been here longer doesn't give them any right to do things to others and a new player should NOT be afraid to stand up to them just because the date they were born. it is wrong to try and discourage people to stand up to an "older player" .... just because they are older doesn't mean they are perfect. I agree Sensual. :) It is also why I stated "right or wrong" in my post. However, I stand by my main point of that paragraph which is, if you come out in your first paragraph of a post insulting and name calling an established, well known player, you *will* have *many* people that will not listen to a single other word you have to say. It is a simple fact. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 18:38 From: someone You merely asked Pahoa a simple question? She answered with a simple " I don't know just yet". Yep, that's how it went. And she got more and more indignant and I had to keep explaining it was on behalf of a customer OVER AND OVER. The first contact with her was an in-game PM/e-mail. She answered me from her email while logged off. It might have ended there -- but it didn't. In-world, she escalated -- because the very thought that someone might ask to buy from her, or seek to know something about her plans irritated the hell out of her. She went into it already peeved at something she read in the forum here evidently about Blue Burke's build in Clunn/Dowden. She decided I might do the same thing to her. She escalated and escalted. I think it's not only because she was having a bad sim day but because she had just set up house after moving from Lusk and escaping what she thought was forever from vexing neighbour problems. Let me repeat again in words of one syllable: Pa-ho-a did not lose a thing she gets to do what she wants. Er...for someone who is immune to criticism or doesn't have a humble prim in their avatar, I certainly have set myself up for SLEWS of criticism. I've listened to it all, and where it makes sense, I abide by it. Where it is assassinine, I push back. Yep, I do have contempt for assassine, old, cliquish, mob-justice beta-test-love-fest players who first showed contempt for me. But hey, if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes, it could change. Why don't you all get off this now? The earth moved on its axis, the LL servers turned and hum, and life goes on. King Kong is frolicking in his bay, and people are buying plots at Ravenglass and I'm widening some of the lots and buying some water nearby. Life goes on! Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 19:02 From: Prokofy Neva Yep, I do have contempt for assassine, old, cliquish, mob-justice beta-test-love-fest players who first showed contempt for me! A simple "Thank you for your response" would have completed it. Move along. However, you have proven, in spades, that it takes two to tango. Being unsatisfied with a response (good or bad, I dunno, I was not there) you had a hand in on this situation and have not offered one word of contrition. I believe you owe Pahora an apology and if what you say is true, she would probably do the same. Try humble sometime...you be suprised how far a little good will can go. Respect is earned...not enforced. _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 19:23 From: someone you had a hand in on this situation and have not offered one word of contrition. I believe you owe Pahora an apology I am sorry that Pahoa has had to experience any kind of grief, given the vicissitudes of moving from Lusk and having to set up shop in a new place. But she took what was a minor scuffle in e-mail and Ims out to the forums and made a long rant. Furthermore, she went into attack mode immediately, before I commented on her/Crimson's sculptures and began accusing me of being a rapacious land baron wanting to get rich quick and escape the area with cash after scarring the land. That was a ridiculous claim completely unsubstantiated. She conveniently left that out of her story. Here this scion of the community, beloved by all, showed a not-very-pretty-face to someone by immediately going *first* into attack mode and trashing a customer's build to boot. So I'm afraid that requires a push-back. You people have been at this far, far too long with no push-back. Why don't YOU try a little respect and stop lording it over the place? I feel she overreacted and made it worse for no good reason, given that nobody negrated her, pressured her, or asked her to do a thing but merely sought *information* to *make a decision*. So I don't feel I need to make some kind of public act of contrition. Sorry, Woody, that I just can't conform to the hanging sheriff's order to get on my knees. Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-02-2005 19:24 From: Prokofy Neva Obviously you first try low-key methods -- inquiry, discussion, seeking of a compromise, and so on. I can remember a situation where I and some neighbours in an area tried discussion, offering money, offering swaps of land, etc. etc. In the end, the person got a negrate because of their intractable refusal to understand that they had completely blocked access to land with a gigantic build that had no place in what had already been purchased by someone as a residential sim, and filled up by houses. The first part of the above I agree with. The second part is just plain wrong. If after speaking with a neighbor and trying to sway them to your viewpoint they don't come around to seeing things your way, the next step is to accept it, respect their right to do as they please on their own land, and let it go. That's it. End of story. To do anything more is to assume arrogantly that you have some sort of entitlement to define standards for others. You don't. Ever. From: Prokofy Neva There's absolutely nothing wrong with using your negrate. That's what it's there for. Or did you think it's only supposed to be used once a year on a griefer? But why? People are horrified at the thought of negativity! Especially group negativity! Horrors! But turn it around and you see it is a highly educational tool to help people out of their horrible frustration and helplessness in this came. If Crimson collected 20 negrates on his King Kong, he might have to think twice about it. If he collects 20 posrates, may the best man win. Educational tool? LOL. You use neg rates to lift people from the burden of their ignorance, which, I imagine, you would define as anyone who doesn't share your subjective view. The ratings system was poorly thought out. Why discourage people from trying to be creative by making them feel they have to somehow live up to standards other than their own, or build for reasons other than their own enjoyment? It's antisocial, unkind, and inherantly unfair, which is why the community has evolved to feel the way they do about the use of negs as you describe... it's essentially blackmail at the price of making people feel like shit. The punishment is worse than the crime, which is why they are so seldom used for anything but behavior or things that are truly offensive. SL is not a contest for those who don't wish to make it into one, and it's not my place or yours to force anyone into one. From: Prokofy Neva Negrates are eminently reversible. I can and do reverse them. Like I said, that's pretty much blackmail when used for something as inane as not liking someone's build. From: Prokofy Neva Negrates should become an actively used function in the game on builds and people should seek to improve the quality of builds and avoid the basic annoying builds that everyone can agree on: lagging, dragging down a sim FPS with excessive scripts, blocking access to land, blocking a view substantially. You're welcome to wish the SL world worked differently than it does, but it doesn't change the fact that it works the way it does. Rather than try to force others to change to your standards and tastes you would do better to accept that it's not going to happen. If you stop worrying about what other people do and just concentrate on your own creative expression you'll enjoy SL a lot more and piss a lot less people off in the process. If someone violates the TOS, report them. If they haven't, accept their right to do as they please and simply live and let live. From: Prokofy Neva Er, could you raise the intellectual level of your discussion slightly? People don't believe something because they repeat it mindlessly and it "sinks in". You attempt to use logic and facts for persuasion if you want to be taken seriously. No, obviously I can't raise the intellectual level of the discussion since you ignored the substance of the remark and chose to make an ad hominem attack instead. Perhaps you should follow your own advice? _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 19:28 From: Prokofy Neva But she took what was a minor scuffle in e-mail and Ims. Can you say "harassment" _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 19:41 From: someone If after speaking with a neighbor and trying to sway them to your viewpoint they don't come around to seeing things your way, the next step is to accept it, respect their right to do as they please on their own land, and let it go. That's it. End of story. To do anything more is to assume arrogantly that you have some sort of entitlement to define standards for others. You don't. Ever. Not so, G.I. What you are saying would be true in the normal course of things. For example, with Pahoa, who is generally a decent builder, sensitive to the landscape and her neighbours, whatever one feels about hers and Crimson's design placement choices. This is a normal situation that certainly doesn't require a negrate, and doesn't get a negrate because the inquiry was made, the information was gathered, and everybody but you settled back down to their game. However I would certainly find it completely appropriate to negrate a neighbour with a giant, obstructive, ugly, scripted, lagging build. Absolutely! And I hope others would join me on it. And this idea that this is "arrogant" or "entitlement" completely obscures the point that the person making the giant ugly build gets to be arrogant and be entitled, but I'm supposed to be helpless. Bullshit! I certainly don't plan to be helpless in the face of a laggy, obstructive, nuisance build. I've negrated a build and reversed the negrate the minute the person put back their weekend fooling-around back in their inventory. They came online for an hour and put a Big Ugly on their lot -- but you're online all week and have to stare at it day after day. Inventories are a great place for things like that. A negrate helps to concentrate the mind wonderfully. It's a great conversation-starter :) From: someone Educational tool? LOL. You use neg rates to lift people from the burden of their ignorance, which, I imagine, you would define as anyone who doesn't share your subjective view. *Shrugs*. We'll see about that. I think it might be instructive to have a Big Ugly Negrated Build This Week sort of running theme and post it here to see just how many people really agree with a negrate and why there's all this fuss where we can't push back and can't use negrate and can't start to rid the landscape of thoughtless obnoxiousness like this. From: someone The ratings system was poorly thought out. Why discourage people from trying to be creative by making them feel they have to somehow live up to standards other than their own, or build for reasons other than their own enjoyment? Huh? I hardly think anyone's creativity is ever stifled by the fact that you can use a negrate or that I advocate a negrate. Is Pahoa crouching in a corner? Hardly. Get a grip. This is a game with negrate in it. Too bad. From: someone It's antisocial, unkind, and inherantly unfair, which is why the community has evolved to feel the way they do about the use of negs as you describe... The negrate is a wonderful tool put in by the Lindens. Thank the Lord! And maybe your clique evolved this way because it's a lot of skittish liberals -- and I mean deliberately to use the word liberal as a swear word here although I consider myself a classic liberal -- because they are so clutched up about any kind of judgement that they fear even common sense. Their minds are so open, their brains fall out. Your community evolved? Well guess what. It's evolving elsewhere. We're here, we're queer, get used to it. Lots of other people will come in the game and do things you don't like, among them using the negrate. From: someone It's essentially blackmail at the price of making people feel like shit. The punishment is worse than the crime, which is why they are so seldom used for anything but behavior or things that are truly offensive. Excuse me, it's legal under the TOS. If you established some informal usage barometer for it, too bad. It's there to be disrupted. I would advocate using it for big ugly builds that obstruct. The fact that I didn't negrate Crimson's King Kong ought to tell you my extreme tolerance level : ) From: someone SL is not a contest for those who don't wish to make it into one, and it's not my place or yours to force anyone into one. I get to use my negrate, just like you do. It's legal. From: someone Like I said, that's pretty much blackmail when used for something as inane as not liking someone's build. Shit happens. People already use it that way. Maybe it is used too loosely. But I do believe that it is possible to arrive at some rough consensus of what constitutes big bad ugly builds that can and should be negrated. Example: Blue Burke's gigantic club with giant feet extending down into a beautiful basin in Clunn/Dowden. I actually didn't get around to negrating that one because I thought I'd open it to discussion first. He's actually telling us it's just an experiment now and it may be changed or removed completely. That was an extremely useful exercise. From: someone You're welcome to wish the SL world worked differently than it does, but it doesn't change the fact that it works the way it does. Boomerang that right back to you, bub. It's no longer under your control. From: someone Rather than try to force others to change to your standards and tastes you would do better to accept that it's not going to happen. If you stop worrying about what other people do and just concentrate on your own creative expression you'll enjoy SL a lot more and piss a lot less people off in the process. If someone violates the TOS, report them. If they haven't, accept their right to do as they please and simply live and let live. Why don't you follow your own advice? I didn't violate the TOS, and what I advocate doesn't violate the TOS and it doesn't even encroach on an already-existing common understanding of what constitutes a big, bad, ugly build. Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 19:42 From: Weedy Herbst Can you say "harassment" Sure can. What Pahoa did was raise into a public forum/mob justice discussion an essentially minor dispute between 2 sims. What she did would have gotten her thread closed on Stratics. Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-02-2005 20:32 LOL, I almost don't have to reply to you at all. All anyone needs to do is hand you a bit of rope and you happily hang yourself with it. Your posts reek of arrogance and a sense of entitlement... and more importantly, a complete lack of empathy for anyone but yourself. From: Prokofy Neva This is a normal situation that certainly doesn't require a negrate, and doesn't get a negrate because the inquiry was made, the information was gathered, and everybody but you settled back down to their game. You don't seem very settled to me. In fact it seems you've elected yourself SL's arbiter of taste. That must be quite a burden to have to carry around with you. From: Prokofy Neva However I would certainly find it completely appropriate to negrate a neighbour with a giant, obstructive, ugly, scripted, lagging build. Absolutely! And I hope others would join me on it. And this idea that this is "arrogant" or "entitlement" completely obscures the point that the person making the giant ugly build gets to be arrogant and be entitled, but I'm supposed to be helpless. Bullshit! That would pretty much be a textbook example of a sense of entitlement. You cast yourself as the victim of other people's bad taste when in reality it's up to any land owner or builder to decide for themselves what value to place on your opinion. That value has to be earned. It didn't come included out of the box with your susbscription fee. Is your opinion so golden that a new builder just learning how to use the tools should be made to feel like shit until they hurry up and conform to your standards? That's pure arrogance. From: Prokofy Neva I think it might be instructive to have a Big Ugly Negrated Build This Week sort of running theme and post it here to see just how many people really agree with a negrate and why there's all this fuss where we can't push back and can't use negrate and can't start to rid the landscape of thoughtless obnoxiousness like this. Obnoxious is right, but you're pointing to the wrong source. In the above scenario it would be you being the obnoixous person, and it's quite sad that you don't see it. You may want to talk to Maxx Monde about how well self appointed architecture critics go over. He tried doing something similar as his way of introducing himself to the SL community and was nearly ridden out on a rail. People simply don't react well to that sort of thing. From: Prokofy Neva Huh? I hardly think anyone's creativity is ever stifled by the fact that you can use a negrate or that I advocate a negrate. Is Pahoa crouching in a corner? Hardly. Get a grip. This is a game with negrate in it. Too bad. Let me spell it out for you in simpler terms... suppose someone comes into SL who isn't a professional artist and has no previous related skills and buys a plot of land to enjoy tinkering around on. They're experimenting away, having fun, learning, enjoying being in a collaborative creative environment... then you come along and tell them their building sucks and they shouldn't mar the landscape with their crappy no-talent hackery and you give them their first negative rate... a permanent mark of disapproval. Now they feel like shit and are no longer having fun. They're self conscious and don't want to experiment and learn for fear of being ridiculed. Nice. Way to ruin someone else's experience. The harm caused to them would be far worse than you having to look at something you don't find aesthetially pleasing. From: Prokofy Neva The negrate is a wonderful tool put in by the Lindens. Thank the Lord! And maybe your clique evolved this way because it's a lot of skittish liberals -- and I mean deliberately to use the word liberal as a swear word here although I consider myself a classic liberal -- because they are so clutched up about any kind of judgement that they fear even common sense. Their minds are so open, their brains fall out. Huh? What does liberalism have to do with this? If you're equating empathy and a desire to make people feel welcomed and supported as they learn to express themselves creatively then I'll happily be considered a liberal. From: Prokofy Neva Your community evolved? Well guess what. It's evolving elsewhere. We're here, we're queer, get used to it. Lots of other people will come in the game and do things you don't like, among them using the negrate. "Your" community? Excuse me? It's interesting that you cast this in "us versus them" terms. You've also previously called it a "clique." That's a bit bizarre and paranoid. It's "our" community, of which every SL subscriber is an equal member, no matter how long they've been a part of SL, or how much their tastes deviate from yours. From: Prokofy Neva I get to use my negrate, just like you do. It's legal. Boomerang that right back to you, bub. It's no longer under your control. Was it ever in question that you have the same rights as I do? Under my control? There you go again. Why not simply accept and be a part of the world instead of fighting against it? I wouldn't presume to control anything... including my neighbors, nor would I submit to their control. You will never arrive at a common consensus of what constitutes good taste or bad. Tastes are inherantly subjective and this isn't a contest to see who gets to be the arbiter. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 20:52 You still don't get it. You're confuosing negrating as a way of criticizing and motivating a player who has made a big bad ugly obstructive laggy build with negrating wildly just when you feel like it, on a whim, such as to lash out at newbies or creative people. Why do that? I'm not suggesting athat at all. And I'm not imposing my taste or general sense of Western-world aesthetics on anyone. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that many people suffer from and many people agree about it. I'm for casting around to see where that area of agreement lies. We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land. Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would. Maxx Monde is among SL's best architects. I'm glad he ventured out into that thin ice of trying to indicate some standards -- based on RL aesthetics if nothing else -- for what constitutes "good". I'm not sure what he did, but I'm glad he tried. What I'm suggesting is actually different -- negrating in extreme circumstances of really bad builds. But I shouldn't have to keep characterizing it and qualifying it just to please you and all the other nervouse nellies. I'll just do it, and post it. And leave it at that. He certainly wasn't "ridden out on a rail" by you witch-hunters, he's in the game and enjoying great respect for his builds by many, myself included. Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate. As for shovels, ropes, whatever, saying that you "feel like" pressing "release" doesn't mean that you are doing it. In fact, I wouldn't give any of you smug self-satisfied types the pleasure! Could you all get a life? At least a second life? Sensual Casanova Spoiled Brat Join date: 28 Feb 2004 Posts: 4,807 01-02-2005 21:17 From: Pendari Lorentz I agree Sensual. :) It is also why I stated "right or wrong" in my post. However, I stand by my main point of that paragraph which is, if you come out in your first paragraph of a post insulting and name calling an established, well known player, you *will* have *many* people that will not listen to a single other word you have to say. It is a simple fact. Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others. _____________________ Sensual Designs & Animations Sensual Productions Teleport to Sensual Designs & Animations Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 21:42 From: someone Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others. Oh, that would be ME Sensual! *Stands back while the stones are hurled*. Would you like to hold the cloak? Actually, I didn't insult her in the first paragraph, she insulted me in the first paragraph of her in-world comments, the record easily shows that. Oh, unless you call saying that she fabricated or misrepresented the story "insulting" -- but then she left that bit out and some other bits. I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Lordfly Digeridoo Prim Orchestrator Join date: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 3,628 01-02-2005 22:34 From: Prokofy Neva You still don't get it. You're confuosing negrating as a way of criticizing and motivating a player who has made a big bad ugly obstructive laggy build with negrating wildly just when you feel like it, on a whim, such as to lash out at newbies or creative people. Why do that? I'm not suggesting athat at all. What's the difference? One man's ugly build is another man's castle. Literally. A neg rate is a completely arbitrary thing; it doesn't matter if it's given out for a bad day or a bad build. It's simply there, forever in most cases. From: someone And I'm not imposing my taste or general sense of Western-world aesthetics on anyone. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that many people suffer from and many people agree about it. I'm for casting around to see where that area of agreement lies. They key word here is many. Not all. Not even a majority. If you took a non-biased poll, you would find that the majority of players don't give a crap about aesthetics or good building sense. This is why so many clubs are built as hollow black cubes. You are imposing your taste and general sense of aesthetics by neg-rating someone. Like it or not, a neg rating is a BAd Thing for most people. It's the same thing as a slap in the face in RL. From: someone We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land. But I could round up 100 newbies that either a) don't care about King Kong or anything else outside their kitchen window, or b) actually enjoy King Kong. What's your point? By the by, what does club-going have to do with king kong, your sim, or pahoa's land? There isn't a club in 3 sims either direction. From: someone Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would. Anyone except the builder. And his friends. And folks that use the building on a daily basis. From: someone Maxx Monde is among SL's best architects. I'm glad he ventured out into that thin ice of trying to indicate some standards -- based on RL aesthetics if nothing else -- for what constitutes "good". I'm not sure what he did, but I'm glad he tried. What I'm suggesting is actually different -- negrating in extreme circumstances of really bad builds. But I shouldn't have to keep characterizing it and qualifying it just to please you and all the other nervouse nellies. I'll just do it, and post it. And leave it at that. Argh. You have to DEFINE BAD. But you CANT in a diverse community. Bad: "I don't like it" "Well, I do" "well, I don't" ...etc. For some God-forsaken reason I'm seen as a good architect in this community, and yet, SOMEHOW, there are others who feel quite the opposite. Who am I to tell them that their aesthetic sense is wrong? Who am I to turn my prims on some unhappy person that doesn't like my frame-based construction method? Who the hell cares? From: someone He certainly wasn't "ridden out on a rail" by you witch-hunters, he's in the game and enjoying great respect for his builds by many, myself included. He's jaded, he's cynical, he doesn't like doing builds for people because people don't like opinions. I'd say as a community we broke him of any spirit he had instead of listening to him. From: someone Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate. And yet you advocate neg rating parties for buildings you don't like? Pfft. What's the cutoff for a newbie that you won't destroy their possibly fragile ego with a dozen negative rates? From: someone Could you all get a life? At least a second life? And for fuck's sake, enough with the generalized ad-hominem attacks. You're digging yourself a hole by accusing all the "oldbies" (myself included, imagine that) for being a cliquey, self-important hodgepodge of assumed royalty. It's not helping your position. LF _____________________ ---- http://www.lordfly.com/ http://www.twitter.com/lordfly http://www.plurk.com/lordfly Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 23:08 From: someone From: Lordfly Digeridoo What's the difference? One man's ugly build is another man's castle. Literally. A neg rate is a completely arbitrary thing; it doesn't matter if it's given out for a bad day or a bad build. It's simply there, forever in most cases. True enough. But I do think we can find a few examples of general consensus on what constitutes a big, bad, obstructive, laggy build. Why should they remain forever? In fact they often move when you point out that they are problematic, but few people bother -- they are so intimidated! From: someone They key word here is many. Not all. Not even a majority. If you took a non-biased poll, you would find that the majority of players don't give a crap about aesthetics or good building sense. This is why so many clubs are built as hollow black cubes. Just because most people don't care or it's the general norm doesn't mean you can't try. I do believe that reason is common to all men and women. And it is possible to appeal to people's innate sense of beauty, regardless of their cultures. From: someone You are imposing your taste and general sense of aesthetics by neg-rating someone. Like it or not, a neg rating is a BAd Thing for most people. It's the same thing as a slap in the face in RL. Apparently it became that in this game because of the mindset of the original players and what they established through practice. But why should I or others be stuck with that? A negrate is a good way to start a conversation that someone will take seriously when they've ignored everything else. From: someone But I could round up 100 newbies that either a) don't care about King Kong or anything else outside their kitchen window, or b) actually enjoy King Kong. What's your point? I actually think that most people even who enjoy King Kong don't want to look at him from their porch on their expensive home and land. Raise your hand everybody who plans to buy King Kong out of the bay and put him out on their front lawn. From: someone By the by, what does club-going have to do with king kong, your sim, or pahoa's land? There isn't a club in 3 sims either direction. Nothing. We're talking about the general issue of big bad ugly builds. From: someone Argh. You have to DEFINE BAD. But you CANT in a diverse community. Bad: "I don't like it" "Well, I do" "well, I don't" Raise your hand everybody who wants King Kong in their front yard 24/7 NOW and is going out to buy him. ...etc. From: someone For some God-forsaken reason I'm seen as a good architect in this community, and yet, SOMEHOW, there are others who feel quite the opposite. Who am I to tell them that their aesthetic sense is wrong? Who am I to turn my prims on some unhappy person that doesn't like my frame-based construction method? Who the hell cares? Well I care, and you are one of the best. Not everyone finds it to their taste. But liking your type of architecture or not is not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about taste, which is arbitrary and subjective. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that obstruct that everyone can agree on. Lordfly, when Blue Burke put a giant, glowing, yellow ugly square many feet high out in Allston, believe me, you didn't have to go to architecture school to get a real quick consensus from all the business and land owners for miles that this was FUCKING UGLY. It turned everything for many miles piss-yellow. Now come on, we can't call this an eyesore, contact the owner and say "Er...what are you doing with this? It's turning everything yellow. Could you at least turn it off? Better yet, remove it?" It's this constant abstracting and diversion into the "one-man's-castle" rhetoric that prevents simple, swift, common-sense action on a thing like the big yellow box. Turns out it was "just a test". Whatever. From: someone He's jaded, he's cynical, he doesn't like doing builds for people because people don't like opinions. I'd say as a community we broke him of any spirit he had instead of listening to him. Well I admire Maxx's work quite a bit. I know he doesn't deign to do builds for anyone for love nor money. He is cynical, but he has reason to be. And frankly, I find that a really chilling statement "as a community we broke him of any spirit". What a gory process! What kind of community does THAT, a community of cannibals? Why would you have to mob him because he showed some spirit and some judgement? I don't know the issues at stake or what he judged about, but I can guarantee you that what I'm talking about is actually far less grand. I'm generally talking about big bad ugly yellow or black boxes that hinder everyone else's land. From: someone And yet you advocate neg rating parties for buildings you don't like? Pfft. What's the cutoff for a newbie that you won't destroy their possibly fragile ego with a dozen negative rates? I know it's hard to read through all these long threads. So let me say it again. I don't advocate negrating parties for easily-wilted newbies. There'd be no sense. I'm talking about big ugly builds that obstruct, that block access, that devalue, that lag a sim. I think there's every reason to take action on such things. Negrate wouldn't be the first action, as I wrote earlier, but the last. But an effective one that we should be willing to use. It's not about "buildings I don't like". I can see that I'm simply going to have to round up examples and then you'll see. From: someone And for fuck's sake, enough with the generalized ad-hominem attacks. You're digging yourself a hole by accusing all the "oldbies" (myself included, imagine that) for being a cliquey, self-important hodgepodge of assumed royalty. It's not helping your position. Well thanks for that comment, I will try to avoid "generalized attacks". Lordfly, I was blasted with a completely unfair ad-hominent attack from the get-go about my motivations and intentions. It was absurd. So I push back. People really have had a free ride for a long time never getting push-backs when they act so arrogantly and so smugly. Frankly, there *is* a core of self-important assumed royalty, you can see it yourself. I don't fear "not helping my position" because it can stand or fall on its own without having to suck up to the right people. Really, it's a small-town atmosphere of status quo that will start to break up as any more people come in the game. Just scroll through this thread and look at all the hectoring, lecturing, know-it-all posts from people telling me "look out for your own good". And look at your very phraseology about running Maxx out on a rail. I advocate a much milder thing -- talking publicly about big bad ugly builds, and negrating the builder if he doesn't respond. Whereas you're talking about running people out on rails, ostracizing them for the duration. Why? Everybody here is lecturing me about "tolerance". Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-02-2005 23:20 The bottom line (for me) is this; if you are not being directly affected, i.e, reduced sim performance, griefing, etc., then it's really not your place to protest or question (other than internally or amongst confidants) what others choose to do with their land. I have been dismayed MANY times over what my neighbors build (I have lived in many different sims), as sometimes they seem to not consider the impact of building huge boxes that butt up against the property line or the like. I simply either move, or wait them out, usually the latter. I have found this to be the most effective method as its seems those who build big boxes and the like are either; a) new and learning, b) impatient, and tend to move out of the area soon, or c) just simply untalented at building. The trend I have seen with the last type is that they get bored and either leave the area or leave SL all together. Waiting folks out has proven VERY effective for me where I currently reside. If you feel you simply cannot abide the tastes of your neighbors, and feel that you must speak to them about it, try to be civil, or it will usually end up like this situation has. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 23:37 From: someone Waiting folks out has proven VERY effective for me where I currently reside. If you feel you simply cannot abide the tastes of your neighbors, and feel that you must speak to them about it, try to be civil, or it will usually end up like this situation has. Thank you, that's very good advice. And I think you are right that it is possible to wait out things. Your comment is right on target because it makes sense, draws on common sense and actual experience, and avoids the hectoring tone of so many of the posts here. Thank you. And waiting out is exactly what I'm doing now. But some things don't go away. Case in point: this huge terraformed mountatin that sat there in Ross without anything on it. Ingrid brought it to Blue's attention -- repeatedly -- he did nothing. I started a thread here about some other big thing of his in Clunn -- and Ingrid mentioned it again in the thread, God bless her. And Blue came on and said, oh, sorry, I had forgotten, I'll fix it. That's an example of what I'm talking about. Mention things. If it doesn't work, raise it in the forums -- that's obviously Pahoa's method that started this flame. And then failing everything, negrate. That often gets attention where lesser methods failed. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-03-2005 01:02 I'm no Fay Ray, or Jessica Lange for that matter, but I do agree Kong is greatly misunderstood ;) _____________________ Anshe Chung Business Girl Join date: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1,615 01-03-2005 03:21 I think it is common consensus on this forum that every normal SL resident can do with land what he/she want. This include banning from land whomever you want and building on land whatever you want. Of course once you own more than three sims worth of land you automatically loose this fundamental right and it is cool for people neg rate and flame you if you don't terraform and build on your land to their specification. You should also know that if you are land baron and ban griefer from your land this griefer will instantly be promote to revolutionary hero ;-) _____________________ ANSHECHUNG.COM: Buy land - Sell land - Rent land - Sell sim - Rent store - Earn L$ - Buy L$ - Sell L$ SLEXCHANGE.COM: Come join us on Second Life's most popular website for shopping addicts. Click, buy and smile :-) Selador Cellardoor Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,082 01-03-2005 04:46 Prokofy, <> That silly statement alone discredits much of what you have said here. I have noticed in recent months a tendency to try to turn sl into a carbon copy of the real world. This has been manifested by a rejection of anything that does not fit into a 'naturalistic' landscape. While I can see the virtue of having open waterways and areas of 'natural' beauty, one of the delights of second life used to be the way you would come across the surreal, the anomalous or the quirky in the course of your travels. Certainly, many people who have come here with the idea of making money from real estate seem to want to turn the world into an estate agent's brochure. In real life I am involved with planning - zoning I believe the Americans call it. We are a small and overcrowded island - not all that dissimilar from second life! - and one of the fundamental principles of our planning laws is that you do not have a right to a view. It doesn't matter if you overlook a lovely forest and lake, if someone puts up a building which conforms to all the other planning requirements and replaces your view with that of a brick wall, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. The same would seem to apply to second life. I believe you mentioned in a previous posting that things only last a short time in second life. I remember my dismay when someone built something at the end of my landing stage, blocking my view of the waterway and replacing it with a multi-storey blank wall covered with a zebra-stripe texture. It was unpleasant for a while, but then it went and was replaced by something much better. Had it not, I always had the option of moving myself if I wanted to go down that route. Views are ephemeral; relationships are not. Personally I don't believe it's worth sacrificing one for the other. Edited for typo _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-03-2005 06:12 From: someone From: Selador Cellardoor Prokofy, <> That silly statement alone discredits much of what you have said here. Weedy told me to press "release" or "delete" and the community would be grateful. I think that's the attitude that new players have to struggle against. I think it's helpful to characterize what they do accurately. The "suicide" is of course of the pixelated variety. From: someone I have noticed in recent months a tendency to try to turn sl into a carbon copy of the real world. This has been manifested by a rejection of anything that does not fit into a 'naturalistic' landscape. ] You've summed up very eloquently here what I was trying to say a few posts back. Implicit in your statement is a condemnation of those who are so low-brow or middle-brow or middle-class or bourgeois enough to want that carbon copy. Yet...why do you think you've noticed this trend? Because new people are coming into the game -- from TSO, UO, RL, whatever. *And this is what they want.* Some land barons and some group project leaders give them what they want, and this has the old technocratic and creative intelligentsia elite with their knickers in a twist. In fact, there's a mixture of old-guard beta-test-love-fest tekkies/designers and brand-new "carpon copy real-lifers" who want that "naturalistic" device. Of course as Juro has pointed out, um, what's exactly natural about Eric Linden's interpretation of northwestern American rocky waterfront? I personally have preferred the more whimsical exotic landscapes where all kinds of big trees and odd creatures appear for roaming around in. Yes, that might sound like a contradiction to what I've posted about King Kong, but that's because subtlety can often be lost here. It's merely when I *assumed the role of developer* -- yes, it's only a role, in a game -- that I began to see through the eyes of those "cc real-lifers" and understand that they valued a King-Kong-free landscape -- as one brave one indicated -- and that a good business would try to give it to them. If Philip Linden wants a million people to come through the doors, surely he didn't mean them all to be the technocrats nursed in the arms of King Kong. When you have a million people, you have Wal-Mart shoppers and people who take the RV to Yellowstone. Hey, in fact we already have that in SL! These people are paying customers and can't be castigated for their "rejectionist" attitude. It will be their game, too. Everybody is happy to loudly proclaim the freedom of builds on one's land -- except when it's real-life carbon-copies? These are conflicts that must be managed, not wished away. From: someone While I can see the virtue of having open waterways and areas of 'natural' beauty, one of the delights of second life used to be the way you would come across the surreal, the anomalous or the quirky in the course of your travels. Yes, it was delightful to be able not to think of valuable waterfront property, just swimming and flying around through the landscape whatever it turned up, turning away from the stupid and ugly, flying toward the beautiful. But I personally paled on that after a lot of slow-rezzing laggy malls and boxy clubs and began to wonder if something else was possible, at least for residence, so I tried these experiments. From: someone Certainly, many people who have come here with the idea of making money from real estate seem to want to turn the world into an estate agent's brochure. I personally have absolutely no illusions about this. I don't think you *can* make money in virtual estate (it's not real) because the risks and losses are just too great. There's no way to calculate things like the teleporter to your sim being broken for 3 days or the entire game being down just when ppl were getting ready to buy a house. Those few who have made some money on it have done it through mass of land, volume of sales, and high turnover. It's precisely because of the inability to protect view investments, the tier structure, and the risks in the game mechanics, that land barons are driven to mass produce, with predictable effects. From: someone In real life I am involved with planning - zoning I believe the Americans call it. We are a small and overcrowded island - not all that dissimilar from second life! - and one of the fundamental principles of our planning laws is that you do not have a right to a view. It doesn't matter if you overlook a lovely forest and lake, if someone puts up a building which conforms to all the other planning requirements and replaces your view with that of a brick wall, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Well, this is why many new and old Americans fled your repressive shores of Europe or Asia : ) People do fight to protect their views in America. I can think of the ferocious lawsuits over the Trump Tower in New York City. Projects become politics and legislators get involved in approving or disapproving. Consumers boycott slumlords and other types of builders they loathe. Neighbourhood groups fight back. There is a robust civil society that fights for that view and often gets it. There's an awful lot you can do about a tower going up putting your view into shadows -- from letter-writing to demonstrations to city council intervention. It's precisely that kind of fighting spirit that is missing from SL, where many people roll over and take the ugly pancaking of a beautiful island lying down. From: someone The same would seem to apply to second life. I believe you mentioned in a previous posting that things only last a short time in second life. I remember my dismay when someone built something at the end of my landing stage, blocking my view of the waterway and replacing it with a multi-storey blank wall covered with a zebra-stripe texture. It was unpleasant for a while, but then it went and was replaced by something much better. Had it not, I always had the option of moving myself if I wanted to go down that route. Yes, sadly, this is the engine of the game -- and the Lindens are able to justify their rolling out of new sims constantly precisely because of the need for so many people to move away from ugly builds. From: someone Views are ephemeral; relationships are not. Personally I don't believe it's worth sacrificing one for the other. It's truer than you know : ( Selador Cellardoor Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,082 01-03-2005 06:56 Prokofy, <> My apologies; I thought you were responding to the 'rope and shovel' statement. _____________________ Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-03-2005 07:29 From: Prokofy Neva Yesterday I felt like retiring from the forums, and even pressing "release" on my land. I didn't suggest it, you did. I merely agreed. _____________________ Ardith Mifflin Mecha Fiend Join date: 5 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,416 01-03-2005 07:56 For every critical comment you've made about someone's build, there are a dozen others criticizing your own build. This is the problem with subjectivity and aesthetics. What you think is visually appealing may not (and in fact, does not) appeal to everyone else. So before you decide to impose your misguided sense of aesthetics on the world as a whole, I suggest you take a step back and ask yourself if you might not be the target of derision. Even the best build I've seen in your project has a very mundane, banal flavor to it. It's like chocolate cake: everyone loves the first bite, because it's a great comfort food. But people quickly grow tired of the flavor when consumed in excess. A more proper analogy might be to the archetypal white picket fences of suburban communities here in America. They absolutely stifle creativity and innovation, and instead favor conformity and banality. Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-03-2005 08:05 Selador, there was no need to apologize to him. Don't let him confuse you with his circular rhetoric. Selador I know we have had our differences in the past however, for the most part you can attest that I am either cynical/truthful and at times bitter in my commentary yet none borders on the side of surealism or inane. I Opted to stay out of this one for the most part as Crim and Pahoa are Adults and can handle themselves. My ISP was down all day yesterday so I couldnt post nor even get in Second Life. But here I am today at work of course. So with that said I want to make one thing PERFECTLY CLEAR!! but first let me post what I am replying too. From: someone I am sorry that Pahoa has had to experience any kind of grief, given the vicissitudes of moving from Lusk and having to set up shop in a new place. Pahoa's, Crimson's and My choice to leave Lusk was not out of Necessity or distaste for our neighbor's in fact we lived their peacefully for over a year. Our choice for moving really isn't the communitys need to know as it was our private decision carried forth in private VOICE conversations. So, Prokofy on that point never assume anything as the more you do the more you make yourself look like an ass. But honestly I don't even have to really say that as your doing such a wonderful job of choking on your own words N-I-C-E.... Now in retort about the reporting a harrasment charge, needless to say you hung yourself on that a few post back mentioning emails and needless IM's. Repetitive inquiry's is constituted as harrasment when it is unwanted kinda like sexual harrasment if someone says no they mean it. Saying I dont know is the same principle. So, what part of she didnt know did you not understand the didnt or the know. In addtion as Crim stated they<< Being the statues>> are his. However, the dragon in the woods is mine. But what piqued my curiosity was this statment. From: someone You people have been at this far, far too long with no push-back. Why don't YOU try a little respect and stop lording it over the place? First off who is "you people"? and push-back I have news for you I have been pushed back by some of the best. You Mr. TSO Refugee are based on your own contridiction of words are mearly a small fry in a big sea of sharks better thank god Im a Wolf. If I am wrong I apologise however, in this case considering your circular banter you will hear NO apologies from this old Avatar. Second off give some respect and you might get it. Your arrogance and I am better than any of you attitude certainly has turned me into a vehement oppositionist against you. To even presume for one instance that Neg ratings and incessant inquirys will get you to have your way is appauling to say the least. And a sincere lack of respect towards anyone if you truly believe that will attain you what you wish. I have far to greater number of friends and enemys in second life all of which are highly intelegent and sound in thier decisions on things. Mostly friends have spoken here and even one that was at a point in time bordering on the other. But the point is Prokofy, it doesnt matter who you are as Korg said "Tollerance" has little to do with this world. A friend told me you can only make yourself happy first which in essence goes back to what Korg said. But I assure you of this Prokofy if you don't quit talking in circles trying to cover your ass at every turn and accept your actions as a human being you will never get respect as you so eloquently stated. So Prokofy take this as a lesson #1 Dont bug people about their land as its thiers and as long as they follow the TOS they can do as they wish. #2 Your issues with your customers is your problem Not mine, nor Pahoa's nor Crims nor anyone in Second Life's for that matter. #3 If you Sell land, be prepared if you sell alot of it, your gonna be labled a Land Barron Period!!..get over it. #4 If you think Neg rating are going to get someones attention you are sadly mistaken as some of us wear our negs like a badge of Honor or Courage in the face of adversity. Right now your our adversity with your incessant banter. So suck up your pride pick up your lip and what ever else your stepping on with golf shoes and get over it. You were wrong your point wasnt made and you have no rights over anyone else unless they are on YOUR land. Deal with it and life will get much much better for you. Sincerely, Shadow Weaver. PS Yes I am arrogant, Yes, I am Cynical, Yes, I am rude beyond remorse when confronted. But, you either accept me as such or move on in avoidance as I will not change. _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Alicia Eldritch the greatest newbie ever. Join date: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 267 America is hardly a free country these days. 01-03-2005 08:10 From: Prokofy Neva Well, this is why many new and old Americans fled your repressive shores of Europe or Asia : ) People do fight to protect their views in America. I can think of the ferocious lawsuits over the Trump Tower in New York City. Projects become politics and legislators get involved in approving or disapproving. Consumers boycott slumlords and other types of builders they loathe. Neighbourhood groups fight back. There is a robust civil society that fights for that view and often gets it. (emphasis mine) I happen to think that this is precisely what is wrong with America these days. It is a corporate socialism, not a free market. Try to start an unlicensed business and see what I mean. In this kind of quasi-market socialism, whomever is popular or connected gets their way all the time. Here in SL, fuck that. I can build a giant tower of poop on my land, and no one can stop me. If people wanted to neg rate me for that or buy all the land around me and put up insulting signs, that would be their business too. In the end, informal means would sort it all out, and it wouldn't have to come down to anything else. It's the micro-tyrannies that put the boot down the hardest, because they hit us everyday. And in fact, are so subtle that we don't often see how we are being harmed. One of the advantages of SL is that we are starting from a quasi-anarchy, so we can see each step towards oppression as it comes. It's funny that you mention Ulrika before, Prokofy, because what you are advocating in this quote is a smaller, more insidious form of what she does. She's in a way more honest about it, because she doesn't pretend to be a free market advocate. That said, since neither of you are advocating linden interference, nor griefing tactics, (if I remember correctly) I can't really side one way or the other on the main issue. If your customers want to leave, Prokofy, that's between you and them. If you want to convince Pahoa to change her build, good luck. If you start harassing her, or she you, then it has crossed the line into TOS violation and griefing. I certainly don't think there should be any sort of regulation of how people build on their own land. EVER. That said, perhaps one day when there is a proper system of contract verification, people could sell land with restrictive covenants. In that case, it's a different story. _____________________ anyone have a good way to visualize 3d vector fields and surfaces? LSD? "Yeah, there's nothing like literal thirst to put metaphorical thirst into perspective" - Get Your War On "The political leader loves what you could become. It is only you he hates." - Allan Thornton Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-03-2005 08:25 Alicia I appreciate your sentiment in your post. However just one thing I would like to point out. ((Alicia,I'm not being an ass to you in this statment so please dont take it as such as I am just pulling something out of context. Just wanted that clear first.)) From: someone That said, perhaps one day when there is a proper system of contract verification, people could sell land with restrictive covenants. In that case, it's a different story. True it would be a different story as it would no longer be Second Life but Abandoned Life. Second Life would be abandoned very quickly if a master seller could restrict covenents on the land if that happend then woe is the world as the Kill Land Barron Fests would begin. Shadow _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Alicia Eldritch the greatest newbie ever. Join date: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 267 01-03-2005 08:37 Hmm... perhaps. Never thought of it that way. Well, anyway, some sort of contract verification would probably help for business purposes in general. _____________________ anyone have a good way to visualize 3d vector fields and surfaces? LSD? "Yeah, there's nothing like literal thirst to put metaphorical thirst into perspective" - Get Your War On "The political leader loves what you could become. It is only you he hates." - Allan Thornton katykiwi Moonflower Esquirette Join date: 5 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,489 01-03-2005 09:18 From: Selador Cellardoor and one of the fundamental principles of our planning laws is that you do not have a right to a view. As a matter of fact property laws in the United States are based upon this old and well established standard from English Common Law...there is no property right to a view! (even when you pay a premium to get a lot with a view or open space, it's buyer beware!) Ingrid Ingersoll Archived Join date: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 4,601 01-03-2005 10:00 Prokofy, have you considered buying a private island sim? Yes, it's expensive, but in the long run, it might save you a lot of anxiety that you seem to be having about your neighbours. _____________________ http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html Schwanson Schlegel SL's Tokin' Villain Join date: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 2,721 01-03-2005 10:07 From: Ingrid Ingersoll Prokofy, have you considered buying a private island sim? Yes, it's expensive, but in the long run, it might save you a lot of anxiety that you seem to be having about your neighbours. Didn't King Kong live on an island? duh. :p _____________________ Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-03-2005 10:43 Prokofy, I just want to add that I have absolutely nothing against you personally. You present strong viewpoints and that's what you're getting back. It's as simple as that. You couch a lot of your arguments in the language of the opressed... speaking about an existing world order and a kind of oldbie clique, and "you people". In truth, SL has less of that kind of thing than any other MMO in existence. It's one of the things I love the most about Second Life... that the community is so non-judgemental, welcoming, and friendly. SL would stop being that way if we were all of the same mindset as you are. If neg rates were used as a kind of social pressure to elicit conformity we would end up with an adversarial world full of "us vs them" conflicts at every turn. That's what I find so ironic about your point of view. You imply that you are somehow under the thumb of other people's standards, and yet if you had your way, other people would be under the thumb of yours. What makes SL great is creative freedom and a community that mostly cheers on the creative endeavors of others instead of seeking to tear them down. The latter certainly happens, but the former is by far the more prevalent attitude. You've chosen to have an adversarial relationship with the community at large. It wasn't imposed on you. Lordfly is absolutely right in saying that the most effective strategy for creating the kind of environment around your land that you want is patience. It took me over a year to slowly acquire more and more land around my initial small plot. I've owned the same land since my first week in SL almost two years ago. I've had things built next to me that I wished weren't there like a 100 meter tower four feet off the end of my dock, and a dragrace track with cars that revved their engines annoyingly 24/7, but it's far more important to me to be a good neighbor by accepting people's right to do as they please with their land. I'd rather have a good personal relationship with my neighbors than have adversarial relationships. As I've slowly bought up the land around me I've returned it to nature and protected the waterways around me because I happen to like that sort of thing. I don't ever expect my neighbors to match my aesthetic unless that's what they want to do. If you set yourself up with the pressure of some kind of "duty" to make the world bend to your tastes you're going to alienate yourself and you won't enjoy your time in SL as much as you could. I've always thought that some of the most beautiful builds in the world are the ones built by people without any appreciable skill... they might be ugly, inefficient, gaudy, or completely inept... but they're things that the builders put a lot of love and effort into and they're proud of what they've done. I'd rather pat them on the back and offer words of encouragement than belittle them. We both walk away feeling good about ourselves. As for King Kong, I'd have no problem having him as a neighbor. I had Shadow's brilliant (and huge) "Big Red" dragon as a neighbor for quite a long time. It was a bit incongruous next to my naturalistic/modern build. Who cares? I loved it. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 11:15 From: Prokofy Neva In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong? King Kong is wonferful. Starax is a very talented artist. You are so lucky to have such great work nearby, instead of spinning neon cubes. Count your blessings. From: someone All landowners have that right, and a landowner who is commissioning buildings or selling land has the right to ask on behalf of his customers what to expect nearby -- merely what to expect! -- so that buyers can plan accordingly. It shouldn't have to cramp your style to answer "yes, there's a big building planned" or "we don't know but it's likely just these animals." You must be new to SL. Do you realize how often builds and ownership of land changes? The builds near my home and other properties have changed numerous times. All you can do, short of buying a private island, is to be thankful for the good builds, and ride out the bad. You have no rights as far as "what to expect" since there really is no way to know beyond a very short term time. You do your customers a disservice if you tell them to expect anything other than what is there at the moment you're talking to them. Things change in SL, and very often. Of course you have the right to ask politely, but certainly no right to continue to pry if a definite answer isn't forthcoming. And your neighbor certainly has the right to not answer any of your questions. From: someone And while you may believe you have absolute freedom in this game when you buy land, the person next to you who bought land thinks they have freedom, too, and their freedom is encroached by your unbelievable resistance to merely talking over your plans so that others may adjust accordingly. Let me point out again -- that was ALL that was asked of you! No one asked you to remove anything -- they merely asked to be INFORMED so they could MOVE. Once again you talk as if it's your right to know what is going to be built next to you. It isn't. Deal with it. Do you want a yearly calendar of all builds planned for the area? Good luck on that. From: someone Actually, SL's old player base reminds me quite a bit of a commune -- subsidized, self-referential and hostile to newcomers. That's quite a generalization. Do you know all of SL's older players?? Cause I know alot of them and most of them are very helpful, generous and kind to newbs. Of course, most don't care for hostile players or idiots (older and newer), but the same can be said for alot of newer players as well. From: someone Of course not. You have to start somewhere. I view myself as a pioneer trying to push against the tide of helplessness and anger I see in this game over the utter inability to do anything about the ugly build next door. The Lindens aren't going to zone. And players can't really enforce zoning without constant disputes and Linden intervention. So I think there have to be ways of developing alternatives. One of them is to buy a sim -- and even the views on to the next sims -- and ask people to respect the idea of "residential". Might think about a private island. Then you don't have another persons builds within eye sight.Or..build a nice wall of trees, like a wind break, or perhaps a prim mountain with a lovely waterfall... _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 11:31 From: someone strong viewpoints.... the language of the opressed... speaking about an existing world order and a kind of oldbie clique......... SL has less of that kind of thing than any other MMO in existence. ...the community is so non-judgemental, welcoming, and friendly. ...yet if you had your way, other people would be under the thumb of yours. What makes SL great is creative freedom and a community that mostly cheers on the creative endeavors of others instead of seeking to tear them down. ....You've chosen to have an adversarial relationship with the community at large. .... it's far more important to me to be a good neighbor by accepting people's right to do as they please with their land. I'd rather have a good personal relationship with my neighbors than have adversarial relationships. ...Who cares? I loved it. I quote the above solely as a means of illustrating the following point ---- not as a means of denigrating or taking on Chip or anyone else. I agree with Prokofy that there is an established, fairly cliquish, and observably insular "oldbie network" with a measurable bias toward traditonal liberal thought/philosophies. The above quote provides quite a bit of evidence of the lack of self-awareness or blindered view that that group exercises. Having a few alts here, you probably have no clue that I have been on the fringes of a few of the sub-groups that most consider "oldbies". So, it's interesting to see the self-righteous defense of that larger group as a whole... It's astounding the level of the lack of self-awareness evident by some within that community. Whoa now you say.... Korg is just sounding off, you say. Of course he would say that... He's an @#$@#$. Well, Believe it or not... at least one of my alts could be beside you right now and you wouldn't have a clue. (Remote control access to/of another computer is a wonderful thing if you know how to use it properly.) But that's beside the point. Now, not everyone in the "oldbie" group is friends or thinks alike - no one would expect that to be so. Even close friends have their differences of opinions on issues and third parties. But the fact that certain in-groups routinely jump in to close ranks around one another against even a sniff of a perceived threat/insult against one of their own is not only noticeable to those outside the group, it IS something that does concern most of SL. Oldbie status is not something I personally revere and rarely acknowledge - whether here or elsewhere. It only means one registrered somewhere before someone else. Being an oldbie entitle no one to anything - not respect, not special treatment, and certainly not blind adherence to a particular point of view held (even loosely) in common within the group. As for this thread.... go back and reread it. It's a good example of in-group/out-group confrontation. More than he said, she said, this is easily viewable as something that has gotten blown out of its initial proportions as a result of "growth" - in world size, population and perspective. To some extent, the insular little "creative" enclave certain oldbies believe is what this is all about is threatened by that growth... and they are trying to defend and prolong that perspective. To another extent, the commercialism perspective is clashing with the "oldbies"/creative one. Of course there will be friction between those two antithetical perspectives. Prokofy, you obviously knew you would be slammed as soon as you responded. Good for you for having the nads to stand up and say something. Right or wrong, I appreciate people with the balls to take on any established group. As for those apparently aligned against Prokofy, what is really funny to me is hearing certain "artists" deny their interest in the commercial perspective while simultaneously having some of the largest commercial enterprises in SL. I have literally been rolling on the floor laughing at the leaps of rhetoric and logic a number of posters have made. Curmudgeon that I am, it is hard to laugh like this. Please, take pity on me... Siggy Romulus DILLIGAF Join date: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 5,711 The Passion of the Kong! 01-03-2005 11:53 And lo did the Kong fall from the giant tower in Davenport for our sins, only to rise once more from the waters! Bickety bang folks - when ya gonna start lookin round and seeing the signs... Discordianism - tellin ya it's here to stay... Hail Eris (and pass the hotdog buns!) Siggy. _____________________ The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 12:33 From: Korg Stygian I quote the above solely as a means of illustrating the following point ---- not as a means of denigrating or taking on Chip or anyone else. I agree with Prokofy that there is an established, fairly cliquish, and observably insular "oldbie network" with a measurable bias toward traditonal liberal thought/philosophies. The above quote provides quite a bit of evidence of the lack of self-awareness or blindered view that that group exercises. Having a few alts here, you probably have no clue that I have been on the fringes of a few of the sub-groups that most consider "oldbies". So, it's interesting to see the self-righteous defense of that larger group as a whole... It's astounding the level of the lack of self-awareness evident by some within that community. Whoa now you say.... Korg is just sounding off, you say. Of course he would say that... He's an @#$@#$. Well, Believe it or not... at least one of my alts could be beside you right now and you wouldn't have a clue. (Remote control access to/of another computer is a wonderful thing if you know how to use it properly.) But that's beside the point. Now, not everyone in the "oldbie" group is friends or thinks alike - no one would expect that to be so. Even close friends have their differences of opinions on issues and third parties. But the fact that certain in-groups routinely jump in to close ranks around one another against even a sniff of a perceived threat/insult against one of their own is not only noticeable to those outside the group, it IS something that does concern most of SL. Oldbie status is not something I personally revere and rarely acknowledge - whether here or elsewhere. It only means one registrered somewhere before someone else. Being an oldbie entitle no one to anything - not respect, not special treatment, and certainly not blind adherence to a particular point of view held (even loosely) in common within the group. So you are saying that people that have been here a long time, and have gotten to know each other..umm..know each other? Gee..you da Sherlock! Have you also noticed that a few old timers dispise each other?? As for closing ranks, the exact same thing can be said for groups of newer SL firends, or anyone loyal or of the same opinion. If there were others like you Korg (please..no..), and they were friends of yours, and you shared alot of common views, would you stay out of any threads where one was defending him/herself? Or offering an opinion? I very much doubt it. So yes, groups of friends are..well..friends. People that share values and ideals are..umm..in agreement often. And folks that have been around each other longer, tend to know each other better. Not all that hard to figure out eh? But nice try on the sowing seeds of suspicion thing. The "I have alts sneaking around" part was particularly good. Do you work for the CIA too? :p _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-03-2005 12:39 David I opted to Bite my tongue on that one cause it was Korg. oh well Cie Les Vie _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 12:42 From: David Valentino So you are saying that people that have been here a long time, and have gotten to know each other..umm..know each other? Gee..you da Sherlock! Have you also noticed that a few old timers dispise each other?? As for closing ranks, the exact same thing can be said for groups of newer SL firends, or anyone loyal or of the same opinion. If there were others like you Korg (please..no..), and they were friends of yours, and you shared alot of common views, would you stay out of any threads where one was defending him/herself? Or offering an opinion? I very much doubt it. So yes, groups of friends are..well..friends. People that share values and ideals are..umm..in agreement often. And folks that have been around each other longer, tend to know each other better. Not all that hard to figure out eh? But nice try on the sowing seeds of suspicion thing. The "I have alts sneaking around" part was particularly good. Do you work for the CIA too? :p Thanks David. Some of these same thoughts were bouncing around inside my head and I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I was in the Army we had different classes graduating from basic training in sequence. Each successive battery was a few weeks behind the preceding battery. Guess who we ended up mostly hanging out with when we went to the main base and assumed our regular duties? That's right, the people we graduated Basic with. What a shock. Did that mean we had some sort of "good ole boy" system in place? Nope. We still hung out with people from other Basic graduating classes at times and assisted them with their adjustment to regular duty. And of course we would defend one of our friends. It's only natural for those who aren't leading a solitary life, or some sort of martyristic crusade due to skewed perceptions or perhaps a feeling of insecurity. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:11 From: David Valentino So you are saying that people that have been here a long time, and have gotten to know each other..umm..know each other? Gee..you da Sherlock! Have you also noticed that a few old timers dispise each other?? As for closing ranks, the exact same thing can be said for groups of newer SL firends, or anyone loyal or of the same opinion. If there were others like you Korg (please..no..), and they were friends of yours, and you shared alot of common views, would you stay out of any threads where one was defending him/herself? Or offering an opinion? I very much doubt it. So yes, groups of friends are..well..friends. People that share values and ideals are..umm..in agreement often. And folks that have been around each other longer, tend to know each other better. Not all that hard to figure out eh? But nice try on the sowing seeds of suspicion thing. The "I have alts sneaking around" part was particularly good. Do you work for the CIA too? :p Uh... you theoretically CAN read... I suggest you reread my post as you obviously missed the point... Oh wait. You merely RESTATED my point. Dude.. get a grip. As for sowing seeds of suspicion.. I didn't sow any seeds. I stated a fact. You think that what I am doing with alts is something other people are not doing? Think again. It's a virtual world... with virtual realities. What you think you know is all illusion and the people you think you know in this SL - unless you actually watch them type anything AND have met/know them in real life - are not necessarily the people you think they are. As for friends banding together --- there is getting together and there is "ganging up" to defend or attack. I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time. So.... go get some reading lessons, then some logic lessons, then return to your SL/RL whatever. Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-03-2005 13:20 From: Sensual Casanova Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others. Sorry Sens, I guess you can count me ignorant then. :( Right or Wrong, I seem to do this as well. Though I do not limit it to just people I know or am friends with. Hell, I know a gazzillion people in SL. I may like *most* of them, but that doesn't mean I consider them friends. Though I do respect those who are worthy of being respected. My own reasons. At any rate, yes, I too am guilty of becoming defensive from the get go when someone starts the first part of their post with with insults. Hell, even my close friends often get an earful when they do so. I feel this way mainly because I personally understand the not wanting to listen to a person if they have to result to insults the *very first thing they say* in response to a situation. I don't care if you are brand new or ancient.. And yes, even I am guilty of doing so and deserved to not be taken seriously because of it. I'll concede to that. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:20 From: Nolan Nash snip Brought to you by SL's own "Existential Nincompoop"... which leads one to wonder if it was from the perspective of an existentialist of just the ramblings of a nincompoop. I bet you can guess where my money is on this issue. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:30 From: Korg Stygian From: Nolan Nash snipQUOTE] Brought to you by SL's own "Existential Nincompoop"... which leads one to wonder if it was from the perspective of an existentialist of just the ramblings of a nincompoop. I bet you can guess where my money is on this issue. Dude, learn how to read ok? <---- This one is my fave btw, when someone (normally the arrogant type) is frustrated because someone else doesn't agree with them, they pull out this useless device. How utterly banal. Here, let me try: Dude, learn how to use quotes. Dude, learn how to debate. Dude, learn how to use logic. Dude, learn how to make friends instead of lurking with alts. WoW! I feel superior already! This should be published in a handbook for all insecure people to read! This message brought to you by the SL CIA. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:34 From: Korg Stygian .... I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time. Sounds like a personal problem, as you are the only one I hear lamenting this. It couldn't have anything to do with how you conduct yourself could it? _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:40 From: Nolan Nash Dude, learn how to read ok? <---- This one is my fave btw, when someone (normally the arrogant type) is frustrated because someone else doesn't agree with them, they pull out this useless device. How utterly banal. Here, let me try: Dude, learn how to use quotes. Dude, learn how to debate. Dude, learn how to use logic. Dude, learn how to make friends instead of lurking with alts. WoW! I feel superior already! This should be published in a handbook for all insecure people to read! This message brought to you by the SL CIA. ROFLMAO .. please.. you're killing me. C'mon now... you are going to make me split my sides... Take pity on an ol dman and don't make me laugh this hard. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:44 From: Korg Stygian ROFLMAO .. please.. you're killing me. C'mon now... you are going to make me split my sides... Take pity on an ol dman and don't make me laugh this hard. Laughing at examples of your own faulty dialectic is a step in the right direction. :) _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:47 From: Nolan Nash Laughing at examples of your own faulty dialectic is a step in the right direction. :) I was laughing at the self-described nincompoop. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:51 From: Korg Stygian I was laughing at the self-described nincompoop. Oh. I see, you are running out of steam, so now it's time to ride out my own tongue-in-cheek nickname for myself for all it's worth. Have fun entertaining yourself while you avoid the substance of any contrary points. :D _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-03-2005 14:01 Nolan, you’re wise to suggest “waiting it out”. Another friend has suggested it’s better just to make good examples of architecture and put them around SL, then people can begin to understand what’s good. There’s another thread under “building” about the “lexicon of architecture” that takes up these aesthetic and form/function issues for SL, not to impose them, but to make visual experiments to see what "works" and what people like and use versus what is admired by stylists. But this thread actually isn’t about my idea or anybody’s idea of aesthetics being imposed. I'ts about how conflicts emerge and how to solve them. It’s also about large obstructive/performance-reduction/hideous type of build that anybody can agree on. I’m not sure why this is so difficult to get across. I see plenty of builds that don’t float my boat but I don’t negrate the people or even get into a conversation with them. That’s not what this is about – I’m talking about gigantism and obstructionism. To me King Kong – if he happens to be a meter away from my land, which he isn’t! – begins to border on that kind of overly aggressive viewblocker problem but even with him, I haven’t negrated his creator or owner nor have I asked them to move him or do a thing about him. The appearance of King Kong is merely another wake-up call to the Lindens that they've got to think about zoning some residential versus experimental sims or player conflicts will boom. Far from asking to take down King Kong, I’ve a) raised the broader issue of whether he’s appropriate for people seeking residences, so that some other accommodation should be found for them and b) whether the people who put him out there intend to have something equally big and menacing meters away from my property *merely so people can decide to move if they are unhappy*. Anshe is right that people who crusade against land barons style themselves as revolutionaries but they’ve all shopped in the same malls and hung out in the same clubs created by “land barons” so they are hypocrites. Ardith, it’s hardly necessary to “take a step back” to see I’m the target of derision, duh. And your comments about the “mundane, banal” flavor of the homes in my development just make me shrug. I don’t happen to agree with you nor do the people who made or who buy the homes but that’s not what this thread is really about. And the architects in this development don't need this area to be showcased, they have far more fabulous buildings in other sims where they are working and their reputation speaks for itself. If anything, as a newbie in the game and in the role of developing, there's a lot I have to learn about how you subdivide and manage a sim like this and I look forward to learning from my mistakes and rectifying them there and in new projects. Pahoa also used the tactic of slamming the builds in this development and its customers rather than understanding what was at issue – a query about her intentions so that people could move, and the larger issue about what to do about zoning. Maybe you don’t find residential housing tracts that look like RL very aesthetic or appealing, but guess what, people want it. There will be more of them wanting this than King Kong, trust me on this – or at least they’ll visit King Kong like they visit Disney World but they want to live with the picket fence. It would be irresponsible of me to start a residential development, especially one with commons, and not take that into account. I am well aware when you take action, you open yourself up to slams. I’d be interested to see what you would make if you bought a sim and put in not “mundane and banal” but your idea of what is cool. Shadow, once again, your friend Pahoa didn’t just say “no” so that it was understandable to back off and that was that. She slammed my development and my customer with unsubstantiated comments then took her frustrations public to this forum, referring to a barely-transparent “anonymous” neighbor. That *hardly* sounds like the delicate calla lily being "harassed" that you’d like to portray her as, she instead sounds like a very feisty lady able to publicly stick to her guns and probably not in need of all your tilting at windmills. The hectoring tone you’ve adopted is a good display of the self-appointed, know-it-all attitude one finds among this core group of old players referred to here, and I thank you for providing a classic illustration of it. Alicia, we could debate whether there’s corporate socialism in America in another thread, my point there was only that IRL community groups fight back and don’t simply roll over and say “noblesse obligence” and “eminent domain” when Trump or the UN or any large entity tries to put up a tower in their backyard. Once again, I’m not advocating a Nazi building commission or town council that dishes out zoning permits in SL, since I believe top-down player-based zoning would degenerate into precisely the tyranny you describe. I do think that groups of people organized spontaneously, however, might make group purchases of sims, pool their resources, especially their tier, and create some very fine communities for themselves without having to stick one person with tier. The Lindens would enable such community grassroots effort if they could find some way to zone groups of sims as residential versus business or experimental. Ingrid, earlier in the thread we already put to rest the idea that buying a private island sim is a solution. They are too buggy, they’re off the grid – go read all the other threads about island problems to see why no one in their right mind would ever buy a private island sim now and their prices are dropping. And P.S. I don’t have anxiety about neighbours LOL, and in fact King Kong is the least of my problems. It’s just an experiment, in a game, to see if you can more or less secure some views and more or less put down some examples of good residential architecture that people will actually live in. That’s it! Chip, I’m in quest of a democratic, community-wide consensus about what constitutes a big/bad/obstructionist/ugly build and probing whether it is possible to take group action when such events occur. That’s quite different than imposing my own aesthetic. I continue to believe that such a consensus can be found, although the path to it will be difficult. I do cheer on creative endeavors. I’ve spent many months organizing events that provide awards for good architecture, newbie architecture, sculpture, innovative architecture, landscaping/waterfalls, etc. It’s too bad you didn’t see any of this. You’re absolutely right that patience is the best counsel for the problem of a neighbour’s poor design choices and that’s exactly the route I’m following on builds going up that make me unhappy – let them do their thing, and see if it lasts. But I still advocate trying to find solutions to another problem, which isn’t about neighbours’ aesthetics, it’s about the big/bad/ugly build meant to grief, lag, annoy, and there I think more can be done. David, I haven’t told my customers a thing other than that it’s a residential community and that we make the best attempt we can to secure freedom from ugly and laggy builds at least on that sim. Naturally, any one of them could sell out and their lot into a big ugly glowing square. But you have to start somewhere rather than endlessly bitching and that’s exactly what I’m doing. And once again, a person asking to be informed so they can move is hardly a person imposing a “right to know” or a year-long calendar of building notices on the surrounding area so there’s no need to exaggerate. You’re right that I made too sweeping a generalization about all older players, and I thank all those who have taken time as volunteers in live help or at tutorials to help, and for all their kindnesses. I am talking about a certain kind of core group, not all and I should clarify that. Korg, I’m so glad and grateful you had the courage to express your agreement that there is indeed a fairly cliquish and observedly insular oldbie network. I don’t know if their bias is toward traditional liberalism or if their bias is to the faux-liberal, pedestrian pagan hedonism one finds in Internet games, but I do know that they are arch conservatives about letting go the hammerlock they have on SL, and they are willing to send posses out on the forums to hunt and hog-tie anyone who challenges them. You said the oldbies are threatened by the game’s growth and the clash of cultures and that’s exactly what I’ve raised in this and other threads and I am quite aware I’ll be pilloried for it. But all they are doing is killing the messenger. It’s not me who imposed a new and growing demand in SL for quiet residential space free of wacky or ugly builds and it’s not me who set the goal of widening and growing the game so many non-tekkie and not-creative, consumer types begin to come into it. Linden Labs might have been content to keep their game as an eternal small beta test – a laboratory as it’s called – for innovative design and cutting-edge experimental game technology. They could have kept all those tekkies afloat forever on their $500 LL a week and their "incubator" and dwell awards. But instead, they decided to be a game business -- a mass entertainment business. The reason they call them "massive multiplayer games" is because they are, er, massive and multiplayer, not just a few beta testers. They decided to get into the server “virtual estate” business with their land-auction approach and professed desire to increase to a million customers and serve as the WWW of games. So deal with it. I guess to contrast with TSO and other games I’ve seen like ATITD, yes, I’ve never seen such a spoiled and feted inner-core technocratic/creative intelligentsia elite anywhere in my life except perhaps for the Soviet Union LOL. I alternately marvel at the Swedish Stockholm Syndrome I see among long-time players with huge investments in time and money (they never stand up to get better service/servers/game-play mechanics) – and I grow more cynical as I see the various formal and informal reward systems that help keep alive this insular elite. I’m willing to bet that one of the major obstacles LL will face in growth is how to step over or around this hardcore elite which it has itself created. Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:04 From: Nolan Nash Oh. I see, you are running out of steam, so now it's time to ride out my own tongue-in-cheek nickname for myself for all it's worth. Have fun entertaining yourself while you avoid the substance of any contrary points. :D I made my points. You choose not to respond to THEM. As for "tongue in cheek nicknames".... umm.. have you considered mine? If not, do so now. I knew that you could. David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 14:05 From: Korg Stygian Uh... you theoretically CAN read... I suggest you reread my post as you obviously missed the point... Oh wait. You merely RESTATED my point. Dude.. get a grip. I can read quite well thank you. I didn't restate your point, but merely demonstrated that you had none. As for grips, is there anything in particular I should be gripping? From: someone As for sowing seeds of suspicion.. I didn't sow any seeds. I stated a fact. Oh..what facts. I sure didn't see many in your post. But lots of opinions. And you know what they say about opinions... From: someone You think that what I am doing with alts is something other people are not doing? Think again. It's a virtual world... with virtual realities. /GASP! No way. Second Life is virtual and people use alts? Liar!! ;) From: someone What you think you know is all illusion and the people you think you know in this SL - unless you actually watch them type anything AND have met/know them in real life - are not necessarily the people you think they are. Well, since you have no idea what I think I know, then that statement is clearly misinformation and more rhetoric to make yourself sound wise and experienced. *yawns* Guess what, even if you DO meet them in RL, they still might not be the people you think they are. From: someone As for friends banding together --- there is getting together and there is "ganging up" to defend or attack. I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time. Really? So ganging up would be sharing and expressing similar opinions? Or debunking opposing opinions? Not sure what would be the difference in your mind as to ganging up and sharing a viewpoint/opinion. Is there a handbook I can read? And if this is the worst ganging up you've ever seen, all I can say is you must not get out much, either on the internet or in RL. This is very typical of most forums, and actually friendlier than many. And politics and newscasts and general media tend to gang up worse, or at least gang up on more important matters. From: someone So.... go get some reading lessons, then some logic lessons, then return to your SL/RL whatever. Hehe..weak Korg...very very weak. You really should think about that vacation. P.S. And you using your alts to spy, as you imply, is sad and pitiful, but whatever floats your boat. (Poetic sentence eh?) _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Kats Kothari Disturbingly Cute Join date: 14 Aug 2003 Posts: 556 01-03-2005 14:10 From: Prokofy Neva ... We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land. Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would. ... Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate. After finally reading the whole thread, I would also like to share my 2 cents worth. ;) In my personal opinion, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen many builds that could be considered eyesores and they don't bother me as long as the do not cause excessive lag, stream particles unto my land or cause any other annoyance to the sim or unto my land borders. I wouldn't mind seeing a King Kong on my neighbor's land (my tastes differ from that person who said that she wouldn't like to see it). I wouldn't neg rate a build I found "ugly" because I understand how other people (including the creator) could find it beautiful. In fact, I have seen many creations listed on the classifieds and seen people's comments on how beautiful it looks and I personally thought that it was "ugly". That's what individuality is about... we have different views/perspectives as to what beauty entails and we should respect each other's opinions (even if we don't agree with them). This is the same reason why I wouldn't/haven't neg-rated builds that I do not find beautiful and I understand how rating a new player's build negatively while they are experimenting and still learning how to build, could discourage them from learning and moving on to another enviroment. While learning how to build I lived in a giant Moogle, in a pink castle (which I personally wasn't too happy with, but I got many comments from players that found it cute), in a box-shape tower and many other builds that could be considered eyesores, but many players enjoyed them and so did I. One of my concerns with the statements made on this thread deal with what has been said about cliques, favoritism, etc. I acknowledge that there are certain players that stick together, but just because a player is a "newbie" or an "oldie" doesn't mean that they will choose to side with the older players or the newer players. There have been many arguments on the forums in which older players have disagreed on issues (many of them loathe each other), yet we still manage to move on regardless on who sided with who. I can understand how people's friendships can influence people's opinions, since we can judge a situation with how familiar we are with certain players (e.g. I am friends with Francis and if she were to get into an arguement/discussion with another player, I would most likely side with her, not only because of my friendship with her, but because I know what she is capable of). Even though many people have friendships and cliques, they aren't afraid to speak up if they disagree with said friends or cliques and/or if they believe that they are wrong (this has happened a lot in the forums). As for the situation that started this thread, maybe the best solution would be to agree to disagree and use the land tools that have been given to us (banning, muting, etc.) to avoid any further confrontation, if no "happy medium" can be reached. P.S. One final note, the SL Community is ever-changing and some people change their builds as often as they change their avatar's underwear, so there is no guarantee that you will always have a perfect sunset view or a beautiful mansion on your neighbor's land... sometimes we end up with pink castles for a view. ;) _____________________ Maker of many kawaii items: Dolls, huggable plushies, and purses with cute critters. Visit Kats' Kreatures for a better look and feel free to explore! =^_^= Kats' Kreatures Gualala (140,9) "The cat is cryptic, and close to strange things which men cannot see..." - H.P. Lovecraft Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 14:16 From: Prokofy Neva I don’t know if their bias is toward traditional liberalism or if their bias is to the faux-liberal, pedestrian pagan hedonism one finds in Internet games, but I do know that they are arch conservatives about letting go the hammerlock they have on SL, and they are willing to send posses out on the forums to hunt and hog-tie anyone who challenges them. You said the oldbies are threatened by the game’s growth and the clash of cultures and that’s exactly what I’ve raised in this and other threads and I am quite aware I’ll be pilloried for it. It's only as complicated as you make it, and Prokofy, in my opinion, you and Korg are reading into things far too much. I do appreciate that you do not try to demean people and actually debate, although you are very long winded at times and make me read so much! :) I guess I have to ask you if you understand that SL was once a MUCH smaller game with just a few hundred active players and a VERY tiny grid? It only stands to reason that there is a remnant of that old group still in place. Does that mean we control things and strongarm Linden Labs or other players? Not in my mind. The existence of this remnant is unavoidable due to the particular evolution of this online environment. Because you are unhappy about what your neighbors rightfully choose to build on their land and they don't want to honor your request to comply with your desires AND they happen to be oldbies does not mean that there is some ruling aristocracy of olbies conspiring to control the grid. Two of my neihgbors are newer players and I am not thrilled with have my ENTIRE view blocked by boxes, does that mean I can claim there is a conspiracy of newbies to make my life miserable? _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-03-2005 14:26 Interesting points Korg, but I disagree with your central premise. You and prokofy both attribute certain traits of the SL community to some kind of old boy network. We can all agree on "effect" and what's concretely observable... that the community tends to slant towards being liberal and that there are things that have evolved over time to be seen as cultural norms within SL... but we disagree on the "cause." Your theory depends on things that aren't directly observable and are therefore assumptions. Unless you care to be specific about your alt adventures I'm going to discount your claims as a thin attempt to lend credence to your statements without having to qualify them. If people look at players who've been around for a long time as some sort of ego driven clique that shuns newer people then they're bestowing qualities that I don't believe are actually true in the sense that you imply (as in lording over the community). It's a skewed observation based on paranoid assumption. What you attribute to favoritism and exclusivity, I attribute to the limitations of my short term memory. I can only keep so many names in my head and it stands to reason that people who've been around a long time will have worked their way into my long term memory. If you ask me to name a builder, or a tattoo artist, or a scripter, I'm far more likely to pull out a name that I remember than one I don't. There are people who've been here a month or two that are on that list if they've made a strong impression on me. You're definitely on it Korg, hehe. I probably spend more time in world talking to new-ish people than I do interacting with other old timers and my respect for people isn't based on the length of time someone's been around. I can only speak for myself since I'm not a psychic but I imagine it's the same for most "old timers." As for the liberal slant, that's more logically attributed to the liberal slant common to the creative types that SL appeals to and not social pressure. If you polled everyone who's joined in the last month I bet they'd slant liberal so while your observations are legitimate, your assumptions about the causes are pretty flawed. I'm certainly not picking on Prokofy because he's new, or because I leap to the defense of anyone who's been here since Beta. I simply disagree with his point of view, and yours. If there's a consensus among older players about issues like this it's because they've always been issues and we've hashed them out dozens of times already. Don't confuse familiarity with collusion. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:27 From: David Valentino ..you using your alts to spy, as you imply, is sad and pitiful, but whatever floats your boat. You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours... Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on if you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it. You guys are paranoid. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 14:27 From: Korg Stygian I made my points. You choose not to respond to THEM. As for "tongue in cheek nicknames".... umm.. have you considered mine? If not, do so now. I knew that you could. /120/d9/31559/4.html#post327991 I did. I only became mired in your BS once again when you started to become partisanally and pointedly abrasive yet again, after claiming earlier in this thread that you were on niether side. I see a difference in our nicknames to the extent that I don't really think I am a nincompoop and mine is really a play on the pic of Albert sticking his tongue out, you on the other hand seem to think you are curmudgeon, as per your dictionary's definition of course, a definition you failed to ever post suprisingly (or unsuprisingly) enough. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 14:36 From: Korg Stygian You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours... Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on it you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it. You guys are paranoid. We're paranoid, yet you utilize alts to study some imaginary collusive effort by groups and sub-groups? Right, got it. :rolleyes: _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Ingrid Ingersoll Archived Join date: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 4,601 01-03-2005 14:37 From: Prokofy Neva I’ve never seen such a spoiled and feted inner-core technocratic/creative intelligentsia elite anywhere in my life except perhaps for the Soviet Union. I haven't been here that much longer than you have Prokofy, why am I not seeing this? I've met people who you would probably lump into the "fetid inner core" of SL and most often they have been friendly, helpful and all around nice. Some have even become friends of mine. I haven't been to one class ever, everything I learned, I learned from "oldbies" and Toast Bard who landed in SL two weeks before me. I don't get it. _____________________ http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:46 From: Chip Midnight ... Chip.. somewhat intersting points yet you do the same thing you accuse me of - argue based on assumptions. Reveal my alts or be discredited as simply attempting to bolster my own argument without evidence? Nice try but that's kinda faulty logic considering the reason some of us have alts is to act/react differently to the same things/people/situations. Thus, by revealing the alt, one defeats the purpose for having the alt in the first place. If I, as Korg, decide to gender-bend and wear a dress - that's one thing. To say that Korg is also "Joe Schmuckatelly avatar" is something different. You either accept that or you don't. As for oldbies having hashed the liberal philosphy and other things defining the SL community out time and again.... well, isn't that what we are talking about now? The discussion has been reopened and at least a couple of us disagree with the perspective of the "in group" however loose that group might be --- but self-identifying as "oldbies/charter members/whatever" does kinda set up and us/them dichotomy, doesn't it? Add to that the swarm defense in this thread and I think that Prokofy and I are more than justified in saying that a cliquishness DOES exist. Note that I never said that it was wrong, per se, to be cliquish. But that is the sense of numerous responses.... an apparent defense where, in my case at least, I did not attack that cliquishness, merely gave my perspective on it. If anyone feels attacked, I do not take credit for that. I am entitled ot my opinion and I have the right to express it. YMMV. As for spending time here(forum) or in-world talking with people, good for you. Guess what? I am completely different in-world as most people who know me there (except for one specific day) are likely to attest. But, that's not a defense of my actions here - merely a statement that perceptions of and experience with people varies based on the situation. In-world, some of the people I have the biggest problems with here are fine people.. but here a few seen to do as I do - only this time with the cliquishness of mob rule/reaction behind their screennames. As for the cheap psychoanalytic "paranoid" shot.... "I'm going to discount your claims as a thin attempt to lend credence to your statements without having to qualify them..." Pull out a DSM IV/V and then come back and justify it. Otherwise, it's just a hot air accusation, not even a poorly worded argument. That you operate from a different set of core assumptions about people makes your perspective no more valid than anyone else's. My opinion is no more skewed than your own - by your own argument. Agree with me or not... doesn't affect my game. Here in the forums, my "game" is definitely one thing and it's been misinterpreted by many. In-world, I wouldn't care to "come up against" this Korg either - but that's there and this is here. Real life? That's a third "game", one we will all eventually lose at. Beryl Greenacre Big Scaredy-Baby Join date: 24 Jun 2003 Posts: 1,312 01-03-2005 14:47 From: Ingrid Ingersoll I haven't been here that much longer than you have Prokofy, why am I not seeing this? I've met people who you would probably lump into the "fetid inner core" of SL and most often they have been friendly, helpful and all around nice... Heh, there's a big difference between a "feted" and a "fetid" inner core (no doubt I'd fall into the latter group...). :D And yes, there are cliques in SL. However, I think it's a grave overstatement to imply that all the oldbies are in some secret group that is out to demean, debase and de-... well, um, treat newbs crappy. It just ain't so. By the way, Ingrid... make more shoes, please! I love your high heels. :) _____________________ Swell Second Life: Menswear by Beryl Greenacre Miramare 105, 82/ Aqua 192, 112/ Image Reflections Design, Freedom 121, 121 Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:48 From: Nolan Nash I see a difference in our nicknames to the extent that I don't really think I am a nincompoop and mine is really a play on the pic of Albert sticking his tongue out, you on the other hand seem to think you are curmudgeon, as per your dictionary's definition of course, a definition you failed to ever post suprisingly (or unsuprisingly) enough. Did you even bother to read your own drivel before you posted that? Talk about circular argumentation! Damn you are good for a laugh tonight. You really are. I may not have time/the ability to watch Blazing Saddles like I had planned because I am laughing so hard. David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 14:52 From: Korg Stygian You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours... Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on it you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it. You guys are paranoid. I dunno. You're the one that brought up your alts, so you tell me? What would you gain from it? _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:56 From: David Valentino I dunno. You're the one that brought up your alts, so you tell me? What would you gain from it? If you do not already understand or imagine why a person would like to play an alt, I cannot explain it to you. The best I can do is to ask, if your clothes did not get soiled by wearing them each day, would you continue to wear the same outfit or not? If not, why not? /me walks away shaking head in incredulity Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 15:02 From: Korg Stygian Did you even bother to read your own drivel before you posted that? Talk about circular argumentation! Damn you are good for a laugh tonight. You really are. I may not have time/the ability to watch Blazing Saddles like I had planned because I am laughing so hard. No, I don't read. I am blind and I just type. When one fails to convince someone that they are correct, what other path is there than to accuse them of not reading or being able to read ad infintum? I justify my abrasiveness due to my nickname and my RL experiences and age. I see conspiracy everywhere I look. I choose respond to "drivel" because it doesn't carry the "weight" of a "butterfly" and means nothing to me. I am inexplicably driven to irrational arguments claiming cronyism on most issues. People can't possibly be thinking and speaking for themselves. Because they happen to agree with each other, it has to be that they are all in on some grand scheme to subvert the interests of newer players. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/120/d9/31559/6.html

Posted at 06:33 AM in FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes, Virtual Governance, Virtual History | | Comments (2)

11/21/2021

Why Did the Bellisserian Corsica Embassy Move?

The opening of the new Corsica Embassy of Bellisseria was an important occasion in our little virtual world of Second Life, and I knew I had to show up for it and ask the key question: why did the Corsica Embassy move out of the lovely Campbell Coast, founded by BJoyful and friends, to the hard-scrabble working-class neighbourhood of Timescape?

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Amb. Jack Vincent of the Bellisserian Embassy in Corsica. His system name is "idlingwastrel" and he has a small t-shirt shop on the MP and is the host of a number of tiki type clubs.

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Jokes went round about how the men at this event got a group discount renting tuxes at Mo's. Boo Rojyo is second from the left.


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The women, as often is the case, were much better dressed and I was glad to see that they understood that "black tie" in our modern times doesn't mean just the black bow-tie for the gents and little black dresses for the ladies.

When I showed up at the opening in my new L & Co wool suit with the yellow tie and my BREATHE Kenzie Boots and a Deadwool Fedora hat with a "press" tag from my new newspaper, the Metaverse Mercury,  the question I asked after the speeches were over, was "Why did the Corsica Embassy Move?" And then I added:

"Was it because Timescape is a cool name for a sim?"

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Abnor Mole making an entrance to the Embassy ball.

I think so! When I first heard of the impending move, I went to see what was "up" in Timescape and found a weird construction site of a partly-finished mall, claim date September 16, 2011, traffic 49, and this message:

The construction that is going on here is already complete, and, in fact, has always been complete. You just can't see it yet because you're stuck in a linear time zone. Take a red pill or meditate or something.

There was also another one of those cheap, badly rezzing malls owned by a man named "Moriz" with bunches of gimmicky sales items (I've hastily rented two stalls!), and across the street, a wry commentary on the creative land chopping of certain land barons with unscrupulous practices using a photo box of a sliced melon.

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Earlier, at these strange AFK music Saturdays at CC -- which are actually held not in CC proper on the Mainland, but on Winning Witte's island estates with a clone of the CC build, I asked him, as owner of most of the sim where the old CC Embassy rested, why it had moved. He said, "Ask Boo." (BTW, there's another funny thing that happened with the old Embassy -- I'll tell you about that later.)

"I Didn't Move It"

I didn't get an answer at all at the event itself. Jack, the newly-minted "ambassador" of Bellisseria to Corsica said, "I didn't move it." Later, he IM'd me to say he was busy with a lot of IMs, and would get me a statement later. 

(I imagine that if/when it comes, it will be as bland as those statements I used to request -- and eventually get -- from the State Department about Turkmenistan. "We support the development of energy solutions for all newly-independent states" -- without adding the bit about "especially if our oil companies get a piece of the action". PS, they never did, and had to leave, because China, Inc. came in and bought the pipeline and actually paid Turkmen workers more than their own government did, and fixed their appalling labour conditions -- China is actually a progressive force in a place like Ashgabad. But Belli on the Mainland is not.

Remember, the movie to watch is Trumansville, not Stepford Wives, and also listen to Pete Seeger's cover of a famous song.

Commercial Opportunities

There's more than a little of an analogy with US/Central Asia, as the purpose of these new Bellisserian "embassies," as Boo stated in a BBB newsletter, is as follows:

We now have 1,024 square metre plots of land on each of SL's mainland continents on which to build permanent Bellisserian Embassies. As a Bellisserian institution, we want to reach out to the rest of SL. Bellisseria is gradually expanding to connect the mainland continents in new ways and we believe that all parts of SL have an important role to play. The strictly non-commercial /residential-only covenant in Belli should give rise to commercial opportunities on the lengthening border with mainland for example.

I'm still trying to figure out what "commercial opportunities on the lengthening border" actually means. Starkly put, it means that those residents who managed to secure themselves across-from-Belli Mainland parcels that they hoped would be "connected" some day, will have a windfall in their sales/rentals/airport businesses -- more visibility, more foot traffic, more search boosts, more sales. (That would not be me; let grandpa put in his teeth and tell you the story of Snafu some day.)

That coastline has long ago been "spoken for," and the "waterfront behind" long ago abandoned. Flying around looking at some of the businesses, I can't really see a direct BBB connection, although I do see at least one airport baron in the mix. But I asked in this thread -- how does this really play out? Individuals and companies chafing at the Belli restriction on commerce, using workarounds like landmark givers, events, direct tipping and strange sales of DJ streams --  and most importantly, formation of social groups, open and closed -- will now have a more direct passage to Mainland proper where...they will...do what? Charge for yacht slips and airport berths? I'm not in the airport business because it's rationale isn't clear to me -- we can fly and teleport in this world. 

But WHATEVER the connection to commerce is -- which isn't only about literal vendor sales but about reputational enhancement -- it should be made explicit so we understand who rules our world and how.

Fabulous Outfits

To be sure, I totally get how fabulous it is to dress up in a 1930s pilot outfit and pose around vintage airplanes -- and I have one of those, too, from the Lux Aeterna folks line L & Co, and I always don it when I go to work on my land in Campbell Coast -- it seems like necessary protection. I'm not sure I could fly even an SL airplane -- I have a flying chicken vehicle only, and I once made a Baba Yaga mortar and pestle flying vehicle that is so speedy that it is uncontrollable, and crashes at the first banline. I should take it out to those empty Belli seas.

The stark landscape of Timescape across from the Bellisseria mission.

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Checking the Prims

To backtrack a bit, I first got a tip that Abnor Mole (note spelling and pun yuk yuk, which actually I didn't notice for all these years until some forums diva pointed it out to me) had built the Corsica Embassy in Timescape. But a preliminary visit in hopes of writing a curtain-raiser proved this to be a false lead, which is why you need a free press, to try to check these stories out. The main build is a store made by Barnesworth Anubis with the word CUSTOM appearing on it -- I need to ask if he made this custom for the BBB or some other customer. There's also various landscaping put in by Boo and by Dark Sunflower, and a nicely designed gate (Dark is good at designing, and if you have trouble realizing your vision with your BBB stamp, as I did, she will take it and work it for you). 

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I would have put in the late keke's "Off with your heads!" Alice in Wonderland gate sign, but that's me.

I didn't detect any prim that had the name "Abnor Mole" on it, unless, like Rodney Linden's bear which has a prim made by Tizzers Foxchase deep within it, it is "hidden".  I really don't think it was plausible that busy Abnor Mole would take time to build a BBB embassy, or even a lesser-ranking mole -- not when this "independent group" has buildings and flowers in storage from their many activities and can plunk them down.

It Was Only Our Imagination That It Was Our World

But Abnor DID come for the ribbon-cutting with a prepared speech to paste into chat which was as follows:

[2021/11/19 12:02] Abnor Mole: It is a great pleasure to have been asked to open this embassy.
[2021/11/19 12:02] Abnor Mole: Ever since the Great Time Out when Corsica was separated from Sansara and Heterocera to keep the Corsicans from fighting with them over over the prim mines of ANWR, it has long been a dream for many years that they would again reconnect. Bellisseria has become that connection... reaching across the voids to once again bring our brothers and sisters on the mainland together in harmony.
[2021/11/19 12:03] Abnor Mole: To further solidify those ties that bind us (no, not those ties... you're thinking of Zindra) we hereby dedicate this embassy in the hope that residents from all across this continent may explore new horizons and experiences. We hope that the new Ambassador from Bellisseria will help the residents of both continents get to know each other better and will foster close friendships between them.
[2021/11/19 12:03] Abnor Mole: "Your world. Your imagination." is an ideal that has always been a founding principles of Second Life and of the Second Life community.
[2021/11/19 12:03] Abnor Mole: Jack Vincent is one of of many volunteers who has committed themselves to the the SL community. Volunteers like Jack transform "Your world. Your imagination." into "Our world. Our imagination.". We wish him all the best in this endeavor.
[2021/11/19 12:04] Abnor Mole: Please join us in wishing Jack every success in his role as Honorary Bellisserian Ambassador.
[2021/11/19 12:04] Abnor Mole: And from this point on, the residents of Corsica may direct all IM's asking "How do I get a house?", "Why can't my Bellisserian friend turn on ban lines?", "Can I buy more prims in Bellisseria?" and "What is a Covenant?" to him. Thank you!

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Abnor Mole hands the keys of the new Bellisserian Embassy in Corsica to Ambo Jack.

I found this rather poignant -- LL hasn't used the "Your World/Your Imagination" slogan for years and years, and took it off their website because it gave people the wrong idea that the land was really their property somehow (various failed lawsuits, or lawsuits settled out of court leaving miscreants who tampered with the auction web page code still in the game, proved that "virtual land" is basically a fiction. If you leave SL, you can't take it with you. Which, come to think of it, is a lot like real life when you die...

Moles' Imagination?

Maybe Abnor still Believes, or maybe he didn't get the memo, or maybe his superiors said it was ok to use this slogan now that we are really in a domain which is the Moles' imagination, not ours, although broadly speaking, Bellisseria is the suburban fantasy of many ordinary people in RL -- and that's more than fine.

But Bellisseria is developing an edge that some find creepy (and not only me) precisely because it seems to involve -- yet again -- a formula where "some pigs are more equal than others". Abnor may be reflecting in a joking way the actual pragmatic reason LL bothers with residents' groups -- to offload the tremendous burden of the Customer Service State on to volunteers. (The imposing evidence of this Linden practice is the Volunteer HQ build by Lexie Linden in Tenera, now evidently unused, and her gone from the LL staff, and her group of 6,000 (!) volunteers). I'm glad of that Greco-Roman type build that seems like a Parthenon, because I now have a faux Greek community called Silva Beach right across from it -- which I chose for that "Linden protection."

So what do you mean, favouritism, Prokofy? There you go with your conspiracy theories again. But...more than a few oldbies raised their eyebrow at the appearance of the "society wedding" of Bellissseria, where a lucky couple (Linden alts? Mole contractors? We're told "not") got to have their wedding serve as the opening of the Lindens' new elven-themed community centre in Fantisseria, replete with Patch Linden serving as Best Man. There was a Limited Edition BBB Stamp and a wedding flower as limited swag. When I arrived to pick up same, the festivities were coming to a close, and there wasn't yet sign of another development that arched even more oldbies' eyebrows -- a large statue of an Elf and a Mole labelled "Patch Statue." 

You know, I have never seen anything like a resident wedding with a Linden in attendance, much less serving as a kick-off of their controlled living experience -- but that's the least of our problems, I assure you.

Giant Statue of Patch

And as long as I've been in SL (18 years), the only statue of a Linden that has ever appeared approved by the Lab is the one of Ebbe Linden -- and that was eminently appropriate because he died in RL -- and was the best CEO we had. Philip Linden (Philip Rosedale), the founder, never got a statue. Perhaps we paid Ebbe the best compliment -- taking him for granted. It's a shame that people focus on his ultimately short-lived and too-early Sansar experiment with VR goggles -- because actually, the longer LL stays out of the goggles game, the better positioned it will be in the Metaverse, long-term.

Patch hasn't died, fortunately, and I think he deserves a statue for the singular and seminal accomplishment of creating Bellisseria which, at the end of the day, is what the customers wanted. As a long-time student of the FIC (Feted Inner Core, or privileged residents in with the Lindens), I would say that their publication of the "society wedding" on the forums, even with all the qualifications and the limit of 44 on the sim, meant that it was sort of open to the public. I have always said of the FIC that the problem isn't a privileged class of people -- every society has them. So fanning of the Lindens and Moles, Linden/Mole love in return, statues no doubt devised by the Moles themselves as appreciation of their Fearless Leader -- these are all "normal" in a way and aren't a big deal.

But the problem with these things is always the lack of transparency of their economic advantages and reputational advantage (always convertible to business profits in SL) which are gained from proximity to power. To be sure, if I ever get e-married, I doubt Patch will serve as my best man -- or yours -- but I will try to book him for my SL funeral. He gets busy.

More to the point, I think it's valid to care about another "Blake Sea" enterprise in the making, where the few get windfalls with Linden help and the many can't even get near the properties which are all under ban lines. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

And then there's the question of services. Abnor was at the ball for about 27 minutes, and then said he had to "get back to work". There were then reports that he was "dancing with zombies" at a Bellisserian event. Again, this is why you need a free press, to check facts. In fact what he was doing wasn't partying at all, but going to remove griefers from a party who were likely taunting the party-goers from the safety of Linden land around the venue -- Abnor has said the Belli sims have 60% of land devoted to "Linden protection" -- or perhaps an event on a public space like the Fairgrounds. Looking at the Belli sims where I am actually located, I would say there is actually more Linden protection, in fact, but on other sims, possibly less. More than some later Mainland continents, that's for sure.

And that set me wondering how people in Bellisseria can get the Moles, especially the Mole-in-Chief, to come running to get rid of their griefer problems, when we on the Mainland spend days -- weeks -- years trying to get them settled.

And the answer is -- especially when you ask to use the Fairgrounds, or other public venues, you will get that service -- because the Lindens are bending over backward to make Bellisseria seem like a nice grief-free place. I'll leave aside the time, when I was walking around the sim near Neural Networks on my alt who happens to be Black and has artificial limbs, and was pushed into the water off a dock by a gang of Italian speakers. I don't think that's the norm in Belli. Still, there is nowhere to ask the question about service priorities -- Tommy Linden, in charge of Governance, who I once blogged about hanging out with the Woodbury griefers on their sim (and not on a mission to remove them), has ruled that Governance meetings have to be ceased. There is no reason to have these meetings, as residents can find out about the way to file ARs from the Knowledge Base. The rest is not our business.

The Purpose of Embassies is to Sell Premiums

What's curious is that there are people found on the forums among the fangirlz who think that the purpose of these Bellisserian embassies aren't to sell premiums and to get Mainlanders who are loitering around weird construction sites and crappy malls on Mainland, or fed up with ugly obelisks and grief prims devaluing their land, to buy premium and move to Belli. 

Of course that's what it's about, and it's fine to say so. The Lindens can only be proud of their Belli product and their means of getting more people to buy it. If it comes at the expense of older customers, well, that's how Silicon Valley works. 

The contortions people get into, trying to justify this blatant but justifiable grab are fascinating, including from Nika Talaj, People's Merited Forums Poster, a computer professional in RL with understanding of vast complex systems she herself has managed and therefore a Linden peer, who denies the purpose is to sell more premiums and says the purpose is: "to export some of Belli's community cohesiveness and services TO the mainland, thereby civilizing it a bit."

Dear Christ on a crutch. I don't think even her Lindens would put it that nakedly.

Of course there are those of us who have been "civilizing" the Mainland since before she or even Abnor or Patch were born, at least on their mains.  And...what community? The 300 people who played the pumpkin game? Belli has tens of thousands, and the BBB and its related groups aren't a fraction of them.

So...The question in my headline really gets to the heart of the matter. Why, indeed? 

What Happened in Campbell Coast

The "filet" approach to land management -- Winning Witte's cut-up of Campbell Coast. Photo by Feorie Frimon

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Campbell Coast, where BBB founder Boo Royjo was actively involved and where he remains as a tier-holder and airport manager under the new management and majority tier-holding of land baron Winning Witte, was rocked with scandals and depredations on a number of fronts in the past month. The original founder BJoyful, battling health issues, had to give up the business, and the artists and musicians and solid Mainland citizens she had gathered around her were split about what to do next.

I was not among the founders and only heard of CC when Apple Fall announced he was giving away one of his RL painting replicas for free there. Like other aficionados of middle-brow faux New England furni, I came running, and found the sim took FOREVER to rez. I had to come back several times before finally figuring out that the easier Campbell art walk to have was up in the sky, where I bought a number of reasonably-priced art works that got turned into motel art in my rentals, unbenownst to their high-brow creators. C'est la deuxieme vie, mes amis...

So apparently many/most of these sensitive artists fled CC when Winning, a crass Boston Irish type (and we shanty Irish know our betters among the lace-curtain Brahmin), came into contact with people like Boo, who lives in what my enthusiastic New Jersey acquaintance calls "Paris, France, Europe" after her one trip abroad. To distinguish it from those other places named Paris in the US, like Paris, Arkansas, of which there are many.

"Just look at his profile," one artist griped to me, pointing to the Green Day video link on WW's bio. This is why I told WW he should have put a link to the Shins for that crowd, which gave him a good laugh, and now that I think of it, this other Shins tune might have been better...

WW set about doing things you have to do to make land pay in SL, and it is seldom pretty -- houses too close together, scene-changing skyboxes with ugly domes, stores with second-rate fashions...People want aesthetics, but are seldom willing to pay for it, and it does cost money -- recurring subscriptions with tier levels every month.

Land-Cutting

And land-cutting. See, that's what WW was known for six years ago in SL, for those of us with longer memories than the size of our hands -- cutting, farming, "hold-backs," "donuts," and all those cut-throat land shark tactics. He then got out of the business, and came back in the pandemic and started up again. I could see him cutting and holding back on other sims like Adscita; few CC residents realize their new owner spent some time in the Cornfield for land cutting even as he was preparing to do it again in CC.

Funny, I had given him the benefit of the doubt, and said he would treat CC as the jewel in his crown, and not cut; other land dealers disagreed for me and set their watches to when he would begin cutting.

Which was soon, because in an October 22 newsletter to the group, WW said that land in the "hinterland" of the lovely Campbell Coast as it was dubbed was going to be set to sale for low prices, and abandoned on October 27 if it didn't sell. WW has an abandoning alt named Pansophical who does that dirty work so that his rep isn't tarnished. I actually caught him in action doing that on another sim. So now he'll make a new alt. What can you do?!

I hastened to make a post warning people on the forums -- unfortunately, too late for some, who got caught.

WW did this because he had to. On its own, this lovely community did not pay for itself, and it had to -- or he couldn't justify tiering it. Too few people admit that about SL, and don't take seriously the cost -- they fantasize that land is an "investment"; they see themselves in Lady Bountiful roles helping the commuuunity. But unless you want to pay for this hole in the Internet month after month, stay in your sandbox. Or adjust down your square meters accordingly.

It was unfortunate that BJoyful herself was IMing people like me who bought land in CC in the past, telling us of these new rock-bottom prices - 0.4/m which is very deadly in the Mainland setting as anything can come in and ruin 4 sims' views. I didn't bite, because I had already bitten, and had 4096 m2, which included a 1024 I had traded for a Laserlight parcel under the funicular which was hella laggy. I kept saying they should put that thing on demand, not run it all day like the damn pods, but whatever.

Long before the Winning cut-up debacle, I was cheerfully given the opportunity to trade within CC, possibly because I was a more valued customer than another CC buyer who was denied a trade, and then created a huge grief poster which makes my "Be Back Soon" picture look like a tame micro NFT. I had no idea that CC experienced Refrigerator-of-Ravenglass level of griefing, but it has.

Photo by kitten mills of build by Jolly Nova.

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Museum a Death Knell?

Fortunately that grief-bomb which apparently is Greta saying "How Dare You?!" went away quickly. Its deployer is actually still a land-holder in CC. Along the way, as Winning took over CC, a Museum of Campbell Coast was created, which some complained seemed to ban them (possibly only a temporary measure while they dealt with griefing?). I found this screenshot so very SL:

Photo by Uli Jansma

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It reminded me of Bulatov, you know the one?

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Actually this one, for Belli:

Bulatov-paingting

This emotional announcement by the Museum curator, Female Winslet, in a thread that went from bad to worse with the usual self-pitying drama, was calculated to send the message that CC was dead, and now needed memorializing -- even as some of the original founders including Boo and artist Owl Dragonash as well as kitten Mills, the builder and landscaper, were very busy trying to make it work. It certainly was frustrating for them.

I think the Museum got off to a good start by putting up a map of how CC was when it began, which is instructive in many ways. For example, you don't see Sevenfold there, an abandoned sim that got acquired later, and which was a bad buy and a bad move in my view, but whatever, it's all airport, forest,  caves, Cheese Man and Glastonbelli now, tiered by a group founded by Redwoods' Cranston Yordstrom with 5 members, which I hope for their sake doesn't include WW as the tier holder, or Boo is going to wake up some morning with air plane parts in his L&F.

There were also memorabilia from happier days and events with genuine community spirit. It's important to keep up the effort and put in tip jars, but founder Female Winslet of course would, like many calculating forums poster, wept that she is a misunderstood Lady Bountiful who has done so much for the commuuunity and went into a furious diatribe against me, who had actually praised her Museum idea. That's because I said a place like CC needs people to donate time, talent, and treasure -- and most of all tier. And artists don't do that. It has rightly been pointed out that they fled even when charged $150/200 prims, which is a ridiculously low price in that world. Some drifted back, and it seems there is a commission arrangement along with the regular rentos.

Winslet objected that she did all that sort of tier donating and support, but it was actually for an airport on another sim, not CC per se. Yes, she has suffered a car accident and injured her hand, and that has compounded her misery and outrage. But you know what? Everybody has a story. Everybody. If you are feeling sorry for yourself, talk to BJoyful about her struggles, through which she has always remained cheerful.

There it is again, airports...I never paid attention much to airports, although I noticed that they have generally blighted the beautiful Blake Seas in ways which I find hard to understand can possibly be good for business.

Airporting the View

Meddledown on the Blake Sea, with Kuhnke adjacent. Airport by Grappo, the Meddletown owner; sign by WW.

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For example, I could tell you about Meddledown, a sim that sold for a fantastic sum on the auctions (I'm told US $8,000 which seems impossible to be true; I think that's the figure for 5 sims or something that became available when a long-time Blake Sea holder fell ill in RL. But Blake sims do go inworld for the equivalent of US $2000 even, so it's not utterly preposterous). This sim owner then didn't seem to rent out any of his very reasonable yacht berths, and then put up an airport, which hasn't rented either but which is part of the whole airport craze these days.

That blocked the view of the good citizens of Kuhnke behind it  in this beautifully designed by overstuffed rental WW put together -- and that's a story for another day, but let me point out that currently, the 3D chess mass is still underway there, with both Winning -- the land baron holding the tier there for weeks -- and now Clyde/Blue 9, another baron, racing to the bottom to see who can cut up the smaller square and sell it for 0.2/m on the Land & Rental list, which they do to stay on top, and draw people to the sim, who will then buy the slightly more expensive 4096, which might be $3/m -- or so the theory goes.

Given that WW likely paid something like $32,000 on the auction for that "water behind" sim in the greener lowlands of that very austere and largely abandoned realm of the pink mountains of Nautilus, and tiered it only for 2-3 months, he likely did not-so-badly from selling a few of the 4096s and the smaller lots, and holding back some to sell for a huge price later when people will want to "buy the view" back from Blue9's customers...To be continued.

Removing the Context of Campbell

So all that and more is why likely Boo wanted to move Corsica out of Campbell, which despite everything, still looks pretty good (especially because loyal citizens like Bijoux Barr undertook to tier 1/2 and 1/4 sims and save it), because it would have associations in people's mind with a bad land baron chiseling expedition. There were quite a few people showing up in the forums to my thread, which I had cautiously worded when I got the news of impending doom on Oct. 22, because I didn't know all the people and could only warn one or two.

They bit hard on the land baron poisoned apple, then had to abandon out of the situation where all the roads and easements suddenly went to sale in bulk lots for also very low prices -- inviting the doom and devaluation of ad farmers. Even ad farmers aren't always stupid enough to buy ad farm land in the middle of a landlocked sim covered with forest, so I waited until they were abandoned, and asked the Lindens to cut out just the pieces around my land. The indefatigable Bijoux bought some big chunks of it, I asked for one more abandoned parcel, and then I tried not to peer out past my Pleasantville, where for the first time in my life, I tiered and built a road -- first and last, because it really is a stupid thing to do. The Lindens should build them. What can you do, however -- the Lindens didn't put any roads in their later continents in many cases setting up this inevitable conflict generator. We were lucky we had them in Sansara and Heterocera.

And come to think of it, it may well have been the Lindens/Moles who put a word in Boo's ear about the inadvisability of framing the Embassy anywhere near the wreckage of WW's land-cutting antics. They know exactly what's up with him, even if other people find it difficult, and actually, the bottom line is that they don't care, as he is still here. If anything, they should put him on the payroll to help encourage migration away from the Mainland, where these cut-ups happen, to Bellisseria, where they can't.

Ugliness of Mainland as A Bellisseria Advertisement

So again, I think the recipe is simple: take the embassy out of Campbell, which is associated with bad land baron stories and uncertainty now, but which -- conversely -- also STILL looks nice, and therefore doesn't serve as an advertisement for "why you should move to Bellisseria" -- au contraire, it's an ad for CC and why you should rent, or even buy, and have more freedom and prims -- thanks to the willingness of your fellow residents to tier roads and make nice forests and things for you.

Timescape -- don't you love that name?! -- sends a different message. Here be dragons! I want to get some land in that sim -- in fact land right next to the newly-baked embassy is available -- but I'm too busy "saving the view" on my core sims to take that on.

IF that is the motivation -- and it's as good a reason as any -- it won't be the first time the technique was used. Desmond Shang used to post Victorian drawings of people with funny lines like "Edward, you worm! Take me away from this madness of the Mainland to Caledonia". Kalyrra Heart used to consciously buy microplots by ugly Mainland to deploy her islands business ads -- and help uglify it herself! -- to drive traffic to her island rentals. My pointing this out is why she bans me from her sims to this day.

"Community Connections"

I'm skeptical when people say that these ambassadors are about building friendship and consocial activities (I think that odd term actually shows up in their literature), where we will all walk shoulder-to-shoulder into the sunset, hopping a pod to slum it for awhile on Mainland and check our vehicle businesses there, before heading off into the sunset to Belli, where peace, calm, and immediate Mole service awaits.

Of course that's exactly what Boo is saying right now on the forums:

“The BBB is COMPLETELY independent in it's actions. The BBB is a volunteer group, solely here to help bring community connections, and fun, to the residents of Second Life.”

If you believe in that, you believe in the tooth fairy, and speaking of fairies, you can pick up my Winter Fairy Transport box at the Honorary Consul of Titania's residence in Porridge Pot, the first "embassy" game in fact of Mainland and Bellisseria lol. It's free now, but will soon only be available for $50 first at Mieville's Thanksgiving event and later at the Christmas event as a prize in the game there.

I rightly responded to Boo's hardly credible claims of independence as follows:

Then why do you need to meet with Lindens and Moles? Why do you have a Mole cut the ribbon on your new embassy? Can you tell us that you did not clear your list of ambassadors with Moles or Lindens? Why can only residents with Bellisserian passports join the BBB Users Group? 

Why do members of your group have Patch Linden as the best man at their wedding? Why can't Operation Mainland stamps be placed at Mole sites, and only BBB stamps can be placed there? I mean, the questions are endless, and I personally don't care about the answers to a lot of them, but to claim the BBB is "completely independent" just doesn't hold up, Boo. And if you don't see that now, I assure you that you will in the future. If anything, you should develop a position that explains why you need the Lindens/Moles' cooperations, and why you think you have gained it exclusively. There may be good reasons for this. "There Can Only Be One" isn't one, in my view.

What exactly is your concept of the "commerce" to be encouraged by the Mainland/Bellisseria coastal connections? 

And PS why did you move the embassy of Corsica from Emyniad to Timescape?

Conceptual Art Project

Originally, as I told Boo myself in a conversation last summer, I thought the whole BBB thing was a conceptual art project. Perhaps it still is. But, as the Russians say, "the appetite grows in the eating." Playing player government with the Lindens is likely thrilling, and more and more ideas then are dreamed up to get that thrilling proximity to people who actually make decisions about how the world is built.  The Lindens have gone through all kinds of iteration of that kind of "special relationship" in their history -- I remember at one time, they had "focus groups" of power players that they flew to San Francisco all-expense-paid to discuss development with them.

Can even those of us with a certain amount of stake in SL, or merely to whom it is dear, be able to friend up the right BBB socialites, trade the right recipes, fly at the right airports, and attend the happening DJ parties in Belli to influence them and then possibly Moles? Can we attend those wonky Linden office hours with the geeks or the tedious note-taking sessions of Concierge? (That's all they are, as Concierge has less power than Moles in Bellisseria now to make the earth move literally, much less VP of Product Patch Linden, or the actual code-cave Lindens who can "yay" or "nay" anything they like. I bother with these channels occasionally; I think public discussions are also useful.

Timescape Green Dot Pile-Up

I'm reporting from Timescape, where I saw a pile-up of 32 dots, and thought it might be an Embassy party I wasn't invited to (everyone in the BBB Users Group got an invite to it, and only about 30 perhaps attended, hardly a sim-filling event.

Say, could that regular pile-up be the reason for the re-location to Timescape?!

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I picked up $7L at the mall from the Xploder to cover my reporting trip expenses, although I'm down 50L renting two booths for a week to see if my stuff sells, and to see what else goes on in this fascinating microclimate.

I landed in fact at the tacky mall next to the Embassy -- and saw various Spanish speakers chatting and those not AFK grouped around an Xploder -- the only way for some people to get cash in the game. They stand around there and trade time for money, socializing, and then hopefully resisting the temptation to buy clothing in the booths also deployed there. The owner uses this technique to build traffic, attention on the map, and notice in search -- it's a technique used by many such enterprises.

Can THESE people be drawn to Bellisseria -- people filling the Mainland with their green dots now? Likely not, as they are likely too poor. If they can't spend US $4.00 merely to buy 1000L, yes they are likely in the poor countries of the world although they deserve to have SL as fun as any of us. Merchants like the mall owner make it possible for to have a Second Life in fact -- and make it possible for smaller merchants -- like me! -- to sell things to the public who are not good enough or connected enough to get into the major shopping events -- which, BTW can run to fantastic sums for the booths ($2000, $5000, more).

Can any one of these people just pick up a free vehicle at the BBB office, join the Bellisseria Parade group, and join the travel caravans? I don't see why not; you don't need a premium to have fun, and I don't think the Belli matrons would exactly kick you out -- and they don't have the power to remove you from Linden water. Still, you might not be made to feel comfortable.

Like this non-English speaking Timescape area man who wandered into the Embassy, and could only say "Come to on!" when I tried to talk to him. I don't think the BBeebs actually blocked his entry, but I don't think he was encouraged to try the canapes, either.

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That's me, underdressed for this occasion, but overdressed from my usual garb, in the background in the fedora.

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I'll leave the other ball-goers to figure out who the Agency member under cover is at the Embassy, although I will note I did see a strange plainclothesman deployed on the road possibly as "security". 

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So I have just received an IM from Jack Vincent (idlingwastrel) at press time, but it is NOT an explanation for why the Corsica Embassy moved. It's just a thank you card for attending the ball.

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Posted at 06:11 PM in FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes | | Comments (0)

11/06/2021

The Most Insincere Form of Flattery: The BBB Steals My Idea of Honorary Consul

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By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

From my "Honourary Consulate of Titania" installation at the Home & Garden Expo Design Contest in SL in 2019. 

Shorter-than-your hand summary: the Bellisserian FIC did in fact steal my idea of honorary ambassadors (here's the proof below) but it doesn't matter because it's not copyrighted. I called it "honorary consul" in my inworld story because that's more the proper term in my view;  but let's be thankful at least the residents in this RP aren't all Americans, many of whom actually acquired in our virtual world their first experience of something called a "passport" -- and can't find RL countries on maps. At least some of the BBB aren't Americans and have some grasp of international affairs -- I think -- such as to work up models for government and foreign policy to replicate in virtuality (shudder).

I don't want to be one of those people because I'm my own ambassador of my own projects, and so should you be. I think there are better ways to sell premium accounts -- which ultimately is the purpose of this strange RP of a RL government and foreign office. But likely it will be mainly harmless and eventually sink of its own weight. It's worth following so they don't start trampling in your back yard. But remember, there is only one way to stop an exercise in player government engineered by the game company: make your own, and displace it. 

 

Slamming Operation Mainland

So Jezebel Bailey is "no long with" the BBB, and yet the august personages at the BBB still saw fit to leave her permissions on to the comms. I personally wouldn't do that if someone left my business or project, but ok. So Jezebel got on the horn the other day in the BBB Users Group (population 567) and ragged on the Forever Tourist program of Operation Mainland (population 699). I have my differences with OpMainland but generally I think they're a good thing, like I think the BBB passports and travel are a good thing. I'm all for exploring, especially the Mainland. I personally am a solo player and have my own small group Mainland Appreciation Society (population 44), and larger, long-time project, SL Public Land Preserve (population 850, of which about 650 have logged on in the last year), which has many supporters, but I'm not really here to be in the virtual equivalent of my high school government or college newspaper editorial board; for one thing, I don't have the stamina to sit for 12 hours or more a week in interminable play-meetings where nobody pays me.

Just for the record, because you can't find these things out unless you 1) own property in Bellisseria and therefore are eligible to 2) get a BBB passport and 3) get invited into the BBB Users Group if you apply for to host stamp in the passport game, here's Jezebel's note verbale to Operation Mainland:

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents because you can never totally leave the BBB when you love and believe in it as much as I do! The BBB is expanding as it has to to keep everyone happy and enjoying their passports! Just know this, the BBB is accepted and has the LL backing. You will never, ever get sent to a sex club, a shopping mall, or any place not authorized by both the BBB and LL. The BBB offers unique stamps for your enjoyment and fun in finding them in hunts, or from the weekly list that Sun puts out,
Every placement of a dispenser is carefully selected by the owner of the dispenser. No you do not make your own stamps for anywhere you happen to go to. But if you want or think a stamp dispenser could be placed somewhere, either mainland or Belli, drop a not to Sun.
The reason for this little tirade other than saying HI, is because someone thought they might be considered disloyal for going to another site. I didn't know what they were talking about. I thought they were talking about the expansion of the BBB to mainland. So here is what I think!

1. The BBB works with the moles and lindens on placement, both in Mainland and the BBB.
2. You have the most incredibly talented people working almost 24/7 on making sure everyone who is a part of the BBB, enjoy being part of our BBB group,
3. You cannot be disloyal. Just remember WE do not show places on our web page that have not passed all requirements to hold one of our dispensers.
4. If you want a travel list for us, we do not take the our list off of the places search engine. That everyone can access.
5. I LOVE THE BBB AND WHAT WE HAVE ALL CONTRIBUTED TO ITS GROWTH. Also, the moles and Lindens that have assisted with its growth.

With all this dribble passed on to you, my friends, its a free to you, game within a game that keeps on growing. Thank you all for your continued support! (do I sound like a politician yet?)

Safe travels!
Bel

Now, OpMain may have a blog where this is posted, but I only know that it is issued in the group, which I will join now to fetch and leave, because I don't want to be in groups that are like my own groups, I have enough to do. Oh, except the link in the group is no good. Ok, hmm....After clicking like an idiot for 15 minutes I finally found it -- they really need to put "BLOG" on the splash page so that you don't hunt until you find it under "location list" which isn't intuitive at all.

Again, for the record, here is Fionie's Memorandum:

Because I genuinely want to help residents travel the grid, please understand that there should never be any ‘feelings of disloyalty’ for having any kiosk from any other participating passport program. It honestly doesn’t matter to me HOW a resident finds a cool place to visit - just that they do. For location owners, I want you to do everything you can to promote your SecondLife businesses and locations - if that means having every possible kiosk of every type of game on your land, I encourage you to do so! 

Forever Tourist was never created to upset anyone - it was designed to include businesses in a passport style game AND to create community by allowing ANY resident to be able to instantly participate. If you want to understand the specifics of why I created Forever Tourist, I did an in depth video talking about it’s design, what my goals were, and the steps I took to start the process. You can watch it here. 

I have been and will continue to work with the LDPW team to try and find a way to make it easier to grab a stamp on some of these public places by placing a Forever Tourist kiosk. I only want to do this if that means we don’t have to change the rules that we have in place to let everyone participate. I haven’t been able to create a way for this to happen just yet, but conversations have happened with ‘the powers that be’. Don’t worry - I won’t give up. 

(For those who want to deepen their foreign ministry RP, here's a list of terms from the State Department you need to learn.)

It's been interesting to me to see how people who try to suck up to get along with the Lindens and deal with them in partnerships then get burned, jaded, cynical, etc. It's partly because nobody knows history; they ought to read about Clubside Granville.

The old forums archive are a rich depository of history and more people should mine it before the Lindens some day delete it, like they did the townhall transcripts. Oh, the reason I'm not in that thread is because at that particular period in history I was banned from the forums.

In any event, Operational Mainland took the higher road and made a statement setting the record straight about Jezebel's jab -- which I guess was motivated by the fact that somehow within their circles, some people thought getting involved in OpMainland meant "disloyalty" to the BBB (or visa versa). Interestingly, while this was playing out, OpMainland was featured in Destinations and constantly on the splash screen, so at some level, Lindens "want to be fair" and recognize any resident group "doing something positive". Some people are on their own planet or don't want the kiss of death or live in bitter rejection but I've always found that if you want a sustainable project where you are free and not co-opted, you have to play SL without the Lindens as much as you possibly can, given that you still rely on them for things like roads, clean water, and hospitals. Wait, I mean, just the first thing, the roads. Oh, but not in Corsica, where -- oh, never mind.

The FIC is Not a Conspiracy, It's a Report

Fionie Frimon wants to be a Mole, i.e. one of the select contractors of LL with the last name Mole which involves certain privileges but also involves enormous amounts of hard work, especially as they are now tasked not only to build roads and houses, but to be sort of Gentils Organisateurs like Club Med and organize "fun," moderate the forums, and help build community centers launched with two residents' wedding, at which Patch Linden will be best man. That last bit has raised more than one eyebrow among oldbies and several acknowledging, "Hey, Prok, you were right about the FIC."

The FIC (the Feted Inner Core or privileged caste of SL with connections to the Lindens) is not a conspiracy. It's a report. (Read the original thread about the origin of this term.) My critique about the FIC isn't rooted in jealousy because I'm "not a coder or a maker"; I just think there should be demonstrable quality and there isn't always. I think there should be activities that involve a registrational approach -- a set of criteria for a contest or an event, which anyone can apply to and participate in, rather than a discretionary approach -- where you apply, hope you meet the criteria, which can be arbitrarily applied, and then get rejected for reasons that are unknown. In the US, anyone can form a corporation by sending a small fee to an office in Delaware. It's only later, if you fall afoul of the law or don't file taxes, that bureaucrats then focus on you and restrict your activities. In Russia, the theory is the opposite: first, you take an applicant and drag him through 14 offices and grill him and  put him under the scrutiny of everybody from the secret police to the cleaning lady. Then you issue the registration or permit -- but it's on sufferance, if you stop  doing favours for the bureaucrat. Well, different countries have different cultures...

Also I think any FICness should be publicized. I don't know this lovely couple; I personally couldn't marry a man named "Riot Hax" but that's just me. I've sure he's a lovely fellow. My further comments are here. PS no need to put me in the ban list as a) I don't have a tuxedo and while I have a wonderful petite avatar from Fallen Gods, I don't like getting stepped on in big crowds. I'll wait to see the community center after all this lag inducement is over and hopefully there will be freebies.

I imagine -- I hope? -- that this initiative didn't come from the Lindens, but came from the betrothed residents (unless, of course, one or both of them are Lindens themselves lol). And I imagine that the Lindens, keen to build up Bellisseria and get some traction for their new community center in Fantisseria (and more sales) -- especially after the rather botched Trick or Treat pumpkin thing -- decided to accept the request and justify it by publicizing it on the forums so "anyone" can come (if they follow all those elaborate instructions and can fit on a sim meant for 44 people) and say that it's really about opening a civic center "anyone" can use (if they are premium and in Belli, of course).

There Can Only Be One

So Fionie has built her own very ambitious program, populated it and rolled it out successfully, while also managing an abandoned land reclamation business and doing her own building and writing and of course managing her RL jobs and family. But from what I gather, the Lindens -- the Moles -- have not granted her the recognition of having Mole locations within her network, unless she joins the BBB -- merges with them, really, only as a Mainland "honorary consulate" in a sense -- which she doesn't want to do. She is still "in talks" -- just like Bill Burns is now in Moscow with the Russians.

I think for her, the problem with joining the already-blessed BBB-Linden alliance is that you weren't there at the formation, and you will play second fiddle and if anything, hurdles will be devised to make sure you don't disrupt the program by actually joining. I suppose OpMainland can always issue stamps "on the fly" by merely going to a Mole location and issuing one but you know? Through their "DIY Kiosk" system. If I get time, I will try to figure this out and do it for Magellan's Crash in Columbia.  There are a lot of places in SL. You don't need the Mole places to have fun -- and you can have fun visiting them without all the stamp stuff.  "Don't burn down Party committees; build your own." (Jacek Kuron, Solidarnosc).

The Lindens are guided by a concept that they can't cater to "all these groups" (even though there aren't many of them; it's actually a small world; and only a few would pass muster given their usually strict and arbitrary and not always  public criteria, as with the newbie gateway helping centers. I'm not sure the BBB is so wild about such a merger either, but I personally have put stamp machines in both; I travel on both and enjoy the sites, and I don't want to get too deeply into it because I sense it will involve long waits at drafty aerodromes at high elevations without visible rentomatics, waiting for Rick to bring the letter of transit, and sadly concluding "We'll always have Ahern."

The template, of course, is the sailors and Blake.  Read history, please people. And, fast-forwarding from that post in 2009 to 2021, I think I don't have to argue any more (as I used to have to do) that such amalgations that "cross the blood/brain barrier" are about commerce, first and foremost. Sailing brought the Lindens more business, and why not? That's a good thing. It brought the "Lindesidents" in their Linden/resident "Sea of FIC" group WINDFALLS in rentals and sales of land around Blake -- that can't be argued. Was that a good thing? No, because it helped create havens for monopolists charging outrageous prices and in fact suppressing participation in SL. Are there ways to play SL without getting caught up in all this? Yes, just like you don't have to get into the best parties in the Hamptons to have fun. Will the Lindens drop their FICing to ultimately get more sign-ups? No. Not only does Silicon Valley not work that way, high school didn't, either.

What is an Honorary Ambassador?

In any event, that skirmish was last week's news, and now there's today's news, which is the BBB has now formally stolen my idea of "Honourary Consuls", which was part of a story I started in 2019, and which is manifested at a BBB stamp location called "Honorary Consul of Titania". (The "us" is European/Canadian spelling I got used to long ago going to university in Canada and Russia and working for European outfits, but if you don't have enough space, like on a limited stamp template, you drop it). I could start a long explanation about how "Honorary Ambassador" is really a different thing in the UN or OSCE or other multilateral institutional context, like with Wonder Woman. Graham Greene wrote a novel about the other kind of figure, the Honorary Consul. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, you can do what you want in SL and mangle world culture in any direction, who cares.

The "Honorary Ambassador," Bellisseria edition frankly sounds like it is modeled after the Soviet Friendship Society's latest incarnation in modern Russia, Rossotrudnichestvo which is basically the arm of the Russian state that goes out and runs influence ops abroad to recruit assets.

How to explain this for the young? Well, no one has yet proved Michael Cohen was in Prague (but keep in mind that unlike the Bear Castle, where your BBB stamp would prove you were there, and you would need another BBB stamp to prove you were at Eulennest -- Michael Cohen could have gotten a stamp in Italy and flown to Prague and it wouldn't show up) I did find that the then-rep of Rossotrudnichestvo who shows up in the Steele memo did not tell the full truth about his own trips to Prague.

ANYWAY of course the SL version of this is basically just about the Lindens having some trusted comrades who can go and rope in other residents' groups and bring them under control association with Linden projects. Nothing sinister in that! If it leads to rentals/land sales down the road, keep in mind you have to work nights and weekends getting even a Blake Sea business launched -- do you all realize that?

And from their perspective, this kind of roping in is necessary. I was the one saying the other day that the Lindens don't have the equivalent of the one-way propaganda stream Radio Tochka (a rather abominable thing in Belarus which you can't turn off) to beam messages to all or at least some select residents, since people don't read the forums, bat away splash screen announcements, and don't read emails with the word "spooktacular" in the header. You know? So that's all good, again, from their perspective. We're not going to wait for Committees of Correspondence to be formed on every sim or even every continent to deal with the Lindens now, are we.

Honorary Consulate of Titania

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I've run this story of Titania and its hapless Honorary Consul M. Carter Blanc of Telehub Ross (as in carte blanche, get it?) for some time now in various forms. It lasted through over 3 years of the Home & Garden Expo design contest participation where I won prizes for "best story"; it then had various sequels on my blog and inworld manifestations, and then it became a place in Bellisseria in Porridge Pot, and then finally it got a BBB stamp.

There's a very low-key "Letters of Transit" game associated with it, which few people play because it's very obscure and hidden and almost analog in nature -- and that's not usually what works in SL where attention spans are miniscule.

Even so, it's a thing, I chisel away at it sometimes and sometimes I get messages from it that there are "3 people" who played it or "0 people" in a row some weeks. It's just one of many things I tinker on, I think it's cool, and actually not so hard, but surprisingly few people who get stamps even bother to go inside a house to get its freebies, let alone play some mini-game within it. Oh, well.

So when I applied for the stamp, I explained some of this to Jezebel Bailey, at that time dealing with the applications. So here's the conversation (and remember kids, it is not a crime to publish chat logs outside the SL servers -- they don't have jurisdiction over other companies' servers in their TOS! In fact, it's a duty, to hold both residents and people in power to account -- that's important in any world. And it's all part of the gorgeous mosaic of SL history.

2021/04/07 19:45] Second Life: Inventory item 'Bellisseria Passport Application 2021 - Prokofy Neva' offered
[2021/04/07 19:46] Prokofy Neva: Hi, here's my passport application. Thanks
[2021/04/08 11:35] Second Life: secondlife:///app/agent/81f1414f-62d6-482a-a0e6-366ba7998661/about is offering friendship.

Would you be my friend?

(By default, you will be able to see each other's online status.)
[2021/04/08 11:35] Second Life: Friendship offer accepted.
[2021/04/08 11:35] Bel (jezebel.bailey): ty
[2021/06/18 15:33] Prokofy Neva: Hi, how do you get the HUD for the extra passport pages when you run out?
[2021/06/18 15:33] Prokofy Neva: or does it automatically deliver to you
[2021/06/18 15:34] Bel (jezebel.bailey): do you need a new hud?
[2021/06/18 15:34] Bel (jezebel.bailey): or another hud
[2021/06/18 15:34] Prokofy Neva: I have the upgraded passport already
[2021/06/18 15:34] Bel (jezebel.bailey): you should have gotten 3 of them named visa
[2021/06/18 15:34] Prokofy Neva: ok let me look
[2021/06/18 15:35] Prokofy Neva: why yes, it helps to search under the word "visa" and not "passport"
[2021/06/18 15:35] Bel (jezebel.bailey): haha that should hold you at this point
[2021/06/18 15:36] Prokofy Neva: yes I'm not excessively traveling
[2021/06/18 15:36] Bel (jezebel.bailey): but we can give more when needed
[2021/06/18 15:36] Prokofy Neva: I do have both vaccine shots but
[2021/06/18 15:37] Bel (jezebel.bailey): if the other person doesnt
[2021/06/18 15:37] Bel (jezebel.bailey): yours is no good
[2021/06/18 15:37] Prokofy Neva: yes I realize
[2021/06/18 15:37] Prokofy Neva: I realize you may start giving out shots soon
[2021/06/18 15:37] Prokofy Neva: I have a rare immune disease in RL but I don't think it applies in SL
[2021/06/18 15:38] Bel (jezebel.bailey): YES thats what we need next time
[2021/06/18 15:38] Bel (jezebel.bailey): next upgrade that when you go to locations for stamps it asks if you have any of the following
[2021/06/18 15:40] Prokofy Neva: you have to have your shots yes
[2021/06/18 15:41] Prokofy Neva: you seem like an important bureaucrat
[2021/06/18 15:41] Bel (jezebel.bailey): and if you reply wrong it denies you the passport
[2021/06/18 15:41] Prokofy Neva: yes
[2021/06/18 15:41] Bel (jezebel.bailey): hahah I shall talk to NOrth
[2021/06/18 15:41] Prokofy Neva: it could be random
[2021/06/18 15:41] Prokofy Neva: if you are important I will send you a thingn
[2021/06/18 15:41] Bel (jezebel.bailey): send away not sure how important I am but I have a bit of pull
[2021/06/18 15:42] Second Life: Inventory item 'Confidential Envelope 2' offered
[2021/06/18 15:42] Prokofy Neva: so this is a Letter of Transit from the Honorary Consulate of Titania
[2021/06/18 15:42] Prokofy Neva: these are rarely issued
[2021/06/18 15:42] Prokofy Neva: and they entitle you to certain goods and services
[2021/06/18 15:43] Prokofy Neva: which you cannot be told about
[2021/06/18 15:43] Prokofy Neva: altho one thing is known publicly which is the Diplomatic Pouch in 3 Bellisseria locations
[2021/06/18 15:43] Prokofy Neva: where you get a gift
[2021/06/18 15:45] Bel (jezebel.bailey): the diplomatic Pouch is that a private thing?
[2021/06/18 15:46] Prokofy Neva: no it's public but only works if you wear the Letter of Transit
[2021/06/18 15:46] Prokofy Neva: which you can only get at certain times
[2021/06/18 15:46] Prokofy Neva: if you think the BBB is bureaucratic, Titania is...glacial
[2021/06/18 15:47] Prokofy Neva: but since the prizes are all things I make, let me say that this isn't what you would call a high volume game
[2021/06/18 15:47] Prokofy Neva: : )
[2021/06/18 15:49] Second Life: Inventory item 'Honorary Consulate of Titania' offered
[2021/06/18 15:49] Bel (jezebel.bailey): would you mind if we used some of your ideas tweaked a little?
[2021/06/18 15:50] Prokofy Neva: well they aren't copyright at the US Bureau of Patents
[2021/06/18 15:52] Prokofy Neva: are you a Linden on your day job?
[2021/06/18 15:58] Bel (jezebel.bailey): hahah yeah but we are pretty careful on the things we use and if its ok its ok, Brat!
[2021/06/18 15:58] Prokofy Neva: well I will denounce you on my blog for shamelessly copying my ideas but let's see I think I had 37 readers yesterday
[2021/06/18 15:59] Prokofy Neva: I noticed that when I posted about a slidehow I had at one of my locations from Xenon Linden some Mole HASTENED to put up a slidehow TOO
[2021/06/18 15:59] Prokofy Neva: so trust me, it will not be the first time in my 17 years of living virtually that someone has copied my ideas and not even credited me
[2021/06/18 15:59] Bel (jezebel.bailey): hey word of mouth is the quickest way to get things out there and bad word of mouth is even faster
[2021/06/18 16:00] Prokofy Neva: We do not have a free press in Second Life
[2021/06/18 16:00] Prokofy Neva: in Bellisseria there are only groups
[2021/06/18 16:00] Prokofy Neva: so I'm sure your capacity to put out bad word of mouth is enormous but honestly, I don't care, I do my thing
[2021/06/18 16:01] Bel (jezebel.bailey): oh we will credit you!
[2021/06/18 16:01] Prokofy Neva: so what is your Linden name?
[2021/06/18 16:01] Bel (jezebel.bailey): when people start bitching about having to do the shots records I will give you all the credit
[2021/06/18 16:01] Bel (jezebel.bailey): I am not a linden I just run the BBB
[2021/06/18 16:02] Prokofy Neva: the Lindens have written in their TOS that they can take any creation of any creator and use it in their PR and have a paid-up perpetual license to do so, and really, that's common
[2021/06/18 16:02] Prokofy Neva: yes sure, you'll give me the credit to pile up more hate on me, that's understood : )
[2021/06/18 16:02] Prokofy Neva: I personally am pro-vaccine but you will find a lot of anti-vaxers in SL so good luck
[2021/06/18 16:02] Bel (jezebel.bailey): well I am not a Linden so I dont steal your stuff
[2021/06/18 16:03] Prokofy Neva: well as I said, my things are not copyrighted or patented, that would cost too much to do in RL
[2021/06/18 16:03] Bel (jezebel.bailey): at least I ask before I do
[2021/06/18 16:03] Bel (jezebel.bailey): yeah it would
[2021/06/18 16:03] Bel (jezebel.bailey): to bad you couldnt pay for it with Lindens
[2021/06/18 16:03] Prokofy Neva: I would think an attempt to do a vaccine like thing, even though it fits perfectly with the passport idea, will get all kinds of static
[2021/06/18 16:03] Prokofy Neva: but you could leave it to the venue owner maybe
[2021/06/18 16:04] Prokofy Neva: then they absorb the grief
[2021/06/18 16:04] Bel (jezebel.bailey): We would
[2021/06/18 16:04] Bel (jezebel.bailey): we would put something like Make sure your records are up to date
[2021/06/18 16:04] Prokofy Neva: hmm would I put this on any of mine? Maybe?
[2021/06/18 16:07] Prokofy Neva: I think there are two basic ingredients that define a virtual world
[2021/06/18 16:07] Prokofy Neva: 1) a sense of place 2) drama
[2021/06/18 16:07] Prokofy Neva: so you get this working for sure
[2021/06/18 16:09] Bel (jezebel.bailey): Absolutely

So fast forward to November 2021, and we find I'm not getting the credit because they didn't choose the obnoxious and controversial thing (vaccinations! whew, what a circus that would be!) but chose the "honorary ambassador" idea (I think this convo makes clear that I would only get credit for bad things that would lead to more hate, right? That would be consistent with past experience lol).

Why do I say "insincere" form of flattery? Because the idea is being stolen in fact without the credit -- but then we knew that -- and of course without me being offered an application to be one of those "ambassadors" or to "be in the room where it happens." But again, I don't want to be one, I'm my own ambassador for my own groups and locations (and so should you!). We can all be happy if the Lindens get more premium accounts, right? It's good for Second Life as a whole, yes?

Yes?

I used to be more confident affirming that premise of "the tide that raises all boats" than I am now, still...

I have to have a chuckle about how these people must not study international affairs in even the most casual way. So in real life, you have "ambassador plenipotentiary" -- that's appointed by a government, the "permanent representative" at the UN -- the US has five of them in New York alone and some poor countries only have a budget for one, in Geneva. Or you have honourary consul -- that is a lesser status usually more informally designated to represent their country's business interests in a city where there isn't already an embassy. So there isn't "honorary ambassador" in the way they are using it (which is more like consul). 

So what happened in recent years for all kinds of reasons, one of which is people don't understand what "honorary consul" is (an archaic term from the British Empire) and confuse it with "consulate general" -- yet another function which gives out passports. So now at the UN, they have "honorary ambassador" AKA "goodwill ambassador" to take on cultural functions on a specific issue, like, let's promote women's empowerment. So then you get this - a debacle around Wonder Woman (yeesh). The "honorary ambassador" or "goodwill ambassador" in the UN context is usually promoting a theme or an event, or a campaign, like "the Millenial Development Goals" as I saw in my 15 years covering the UN for various NGOs.

So they are not going out and recruiting various constituencies of people to "advocate for them in their home country" (in this case Bellisseria, as the newsletter explains). So the "honorary consul" in say, Nizhny Novgorod from America, is trying to drum up business for American companies there (well, at least until one professor of business who had taught there for 20 years was arrested for supposedly not having his visa in order). So ideally, if he is not in jail, he is helping Americans with contacts; he's not trying to find Russians to take back to America to help them develop businesses (and why do that when you have Donald Trump to do that for you -- or in theory, the Russian honorary consul in, say, Miami). Diplomacy is a system of reciprocities based on elaborate international law like the Vienna Conventions and practices; the informal "consul" or "goodwill ambassador" fits into the official structure. It's not one way, as it is in the SL edition -- the Lindens pick some people they like who they think will service as evangelists -- to use the Silicon Valley term borrowed from the Bible -- of their premium account -- those people round up the usual suspects under colour of "representing their interests with the Lindens" -- and then they buy premium.

Of course people argue about this sort of thing in RL --  different countries have different traditions -- and guess what, again, it doesn't matter, because we're in a virtual world and who cares.

With the BBB, we already have confusion generated by their term "Travel Advice" which sounds too much like "Travel Advisory" in real life. The BBB's "Travel Advice" is a list of recommended sites for tourists or businessmen, to promote more travel. The State Department's "Travel Advisory" is the opposite! It's to warn travellers of dangerous conditions. For example the State Department has a grade 4 Travel Advisory about the country Colombia due to COVID, civil wars, and -- as my son and his wife who just went despite these official US government warnings and warnings from their parents -- it has terrible drivers that make New Jersey look like a day at the beach. The first time I saw a "Travel Advice" from the BBB I did a double take -- were these aerodrome operators actually going to blacklist Mainland venues they didn't like? But no, it's ADVICE not ADVISORY -- you're supposed to slum it for an afternoon at the Mainland and get stamps!

How to Get People to Buy More Premium Accounts

So these grand personages in our virtual world will fan out and spread Belli love among non Bellis lol "They will represent and advocate for Bellisseria on the relevant continent. They'll be expected to get close to local residents and also to become their advocate within Bellisseria," as the BBB newsletter says.

Nota bene -- I don't wish to apply for this job and I suspect trying to manage all these "goodwill ambos" will become a burden, like keeping up the persona of the grumpy BBB official, and it will be retired. Maybe those people who always want the Lindens to build a railroad through my land in Grote will get recruited by this thing (land which the Lindens themselves auctioned, which was purchased by a furry, from whom I bought it). But these sorts of volunteer jobs are work, and doing them in a virtual context often leads to burn-out.

If I need to "advocate within Bellisseria" -- where I am a property owner -- I can handle that on my own I think? Or file a ticket with Support? I'm not planning a Trash Can Cuisine picnic with three-legged sack races any time soon in Belli so I don't need any Linden connex.

Ultimately, the Lindens can only justify the "honorary ambassadors" if it leads to more competition with Prokofy's rentals  more premium accounts of people who get homes in Bellisseria. I mean, how could you validate the staff time otherwise? As for the residents who sign up for this, one imagines it will fall closer on the spectrum to the American notion of such a job, involving sending people like Shirley Temple as ambassador to Czech Republic for a political favour because she donated to the presidential campaign, not sending highly trained British cadres with languages and years in foreign posts, or sending Russian officials abroad who are extremely loyal and now need to be rewarded for their service to the Motherland. 

I'm hazy on the part where these ambos "advocate" for say, Mainland customers of Linden Lab who are in, say, railroad groups that grew up around the old SLRR, "in Bellisseria". How does that work? They get these old furries to drop their grumbling about different guages and ride the rails in Belli? PS they need more than two rez areas to build up usage of that RR, and they need to overcome the tech fussing and put it in obviously places like Camp Sandwich and Ramstein Forest or whatever those places are called. BTW, if you are in Randelshtam, or whatsis, which has the great zip ride, the Honorary Consul of Titania is right behind it so come get a stamp.

I imagine that isn't going to work with that constituency. Or say, they go to one of these elaborate old elven communities or centaur havens like Rose Haven and get them to buy into Fantisseria, which is mainly norms who just put out some witch stuff now and then, not fullblown RP (and that's a good thing). Nuh-uh.

Really, the puzzle for the Lindens is this, and I feel for them: how to get real people and not yet another alt of GhostofaGhost Ghostly -- or Prokofy's alts, for that matter -- to pony up $11.99/mo or $99/annualized. 

The fact that the Lindens now send the Moles to moderate the forums (!!!) instead of using their actual talents building and scripting lets us know that the Lindens are meddling experimenting in the Metaverse again.

Showing Up

I guess they will have to iron out these details but I think as Woody Allen said, 99 percent of life is just showing up (but you don't want him to show up). I think some people wouldn't want Lindens at their wedding nor would they want to be strung into helping the business of some Belli House Beautiful matron who makes house add-ons. As the earliest Lindens used to say: "Lindens don't scale." Hence, the birth of the Moles, who scale better because you can pay Ukrainians $10/hour and it will seem like a lot of money. But the job is big and Moles don't scale ultimately, either, plus, after you recruited and trained all these people and you are done (for now) rolling out Belli homes, what can you do with them? (Oh, I know! have them moderate the forums!).

So who can you have scale? The FIC, the trustees, the worthies, the people who aren't even like Ukrainians and don't even need $10/hour, although the prospect of having their DJ business pump up could be attractive.

I think it's important to remember that many, many people bought premiums and joined Bellisseria, and not just the old FIC and their 10 alts each. It's a good thing for new people. And the lion's share of these people are not in the 120 or so Bellisseria groups, and not only because they said bad words and got evicted. The overwhelming majority of the "citizens of Bellisseria" did NOT put out the Moles pumpkin Trick or Treat buckets. And that's actually the hope of this Trumansville -- that it will live and thrive on its own terms, without the "help" of insider residents and their Linden/Moles.

 

Update: I tried my idea of using the Operation Mainland DIY Kiosk, which you put on your head, to record a Linden site (in this case Magellan's Crash). I took the picture, clicked on the box -- but oops, it doesn't work because scripts are turned off for "everyone" at these Linden sites. So I stood on my land adjacent to it, to get it to work. Not very satisfactory as there won't always be resident land you can stand on with scripts turned on for "everyone" near Linden sites, either. The Lindens make it hard to bookmark many of their "newer" sites in Nautilus, Corsica etc because they merely call it "Protected Land" and its name doesn't save on a landmark. You have to make the landmark and right on the spot, rename it to the Linden name of the place, or your own name, or a sim name, to find it again. They do make it hard! 

PS Notice I didn't get into a discussion about how the BBB, which is basically the same thing as the core founders of Campbell Community (it took me awhile to figure that out), may not be the best "ambassadors" to be sending out to community groups to recruit them to Bellisseria/premium accounts given how they and their land baron of choice just treated the "hinterland" residents who supported their community and even some of their core -- by putting all the easements and roads to sale in large batches for low prices when their land baron Maecenas found his business wasn't doing so well and had to shorten sail. Unsuspecting residents were lured into Campbell to buy nicely landscaped parcels in a planned community on the open market in Mainland for 0.4/m -- a rare occurrence on Mainland. Then a few days later, the easements and roads all went to sale -- got bought by various people -- got abandoned -- leaving these sections in a plight something like Pleasantville in the Twilight Zone with Anthony Fremont. And here we all are. But this is for another post and another day. 

PPS It occurred to me -- I should have realized this earlier! -- that this particular FICing with the Hax-Anatine nuptials is to keep up with the Jones in the Metaverse. Recently, Roblox made new people-like skins for their blocky kids that look like Legos. AND they announced that you cannot have partners, weddings -- you know, sex -- in their angular world. Makes sense, because it's mainly for children.  No politics, either -- but that would have been harder for Patch Linden to fete -- no politics are allowed in Belli or the forums, although tacitly conceded inworld on the Mainland and on private islands -- there are still Trump lawn signs all over the Mainland and various socialist and anarchist and even communist projects, one of which harasses me routinely in Marietta at my anti-communist memorial.

The Lindens want to show with a high-profile society wedding also launching the community center that you CAN get married in SL (although not everyone is going to get a company representative as a best man, but most people won't care about that part).

I don't know the estimated share of the economy that weddings possess but it's a very big business. Not everyone wants to get e-married but some of the content produced for weddings (like Atelier's new items at Anthem) could be purchased for any occasion, especially bouquets. Many people feature their wedding in their picks as the highlight of their virtual lives, just as in real life.

Posted at 07:06 AM in FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes, Linden Lab, Metaversal Myrmidons, Second Life Inventions, Virtual Governance | | Comments (3)

02/10/2021

The One-Eyed View of Second Life

From my son, after flying around Jingi, where we have the Mainland Appreciation Society, an island of sanity surrounded by goons with land set for sale for $132/meter (it's sailing land, and even closer now to Bellissaria now that Belli has grown amazingly) and people with ban lines where all the passages for sailing might be lol.

[2021/02/10 12:40] Tripod Cyclops: (Saved Wed Feb 10 08:06:53 2021)You're here over two years according to your profile, you aren't a noob... So please, when you enter a parcel that is protected by security, respect the owners wish for privacy. Thank you.

[2021/02/10 12:43] Akasha (akakyakakyevich): ? I haven't entered any parcels, big guy. If I fly AROUND MY OWN LAND and happen to land on your maximum security bunker, if you have security, it should obnoxiously bounce away people. That's how they work, as you may need to learn if you are a newbie. The way they DO NOT work is to personally write net-nanny IMs to people who show up on your visitor list as they fly around THEIR OWN LAND or merely just fly around viewing the wonders of SL. So I'll make sure you're banned on all our properties so you can experience THAT wonder too. Block/ban

[2021/02/10 12:43] Trip (tripod.cyclops): User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.

[2021/02/10 12:44] Akasha (akakyakakyevich): You and your gf make what could be a nice sailing sim a torture.

[2021/02/10 12:44] Trip (tripod.cyclops): User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.

The gf is esme madrigal, if you want to add to your ban list around those sims so they can take what they dish out.

It's possible to have a skybox with an orb set to 40 meters or the immediate area without blocking the water on a water sim. Or any sim for that matter.

Here's the offending parcel.

What's odd is that this group, called leillay, has an orb that gives out messages warning you to leave in ten seconds or else! I just never noticed its messages because it doesn't eject in fact. Maybe these idiots don't know you have to deed the orb to the group.

So just by hovering slightly by their land when you are on your own land building or doing something, you set off their string of obnoxiousness.

I wasn't surprised to see another neighbour also has both of them in her ban list lol.

 

Posted at 04:18 PM in FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes | | Comments (0)

10/07/2020

"I'm Porked," says "Asadorable"

Here's the latest weepy video from Asadorable (sic).

Wow, I haven't had a video dedicated to me since Anonymous threatened me for my blog over the Steubenville story.

I pasted the chat for the record yesterday and thought that would be the end of it -- surely she wouldn't go to the trouble of making one of her weepy videos, would she? Oh, but I underestimated how much time she has on her hands.

She claims that I am "jealous" which accounts for my criticism of the videos. I've often found this dealing with the tiny minds of SL -- they assume in their cramped fashion that if you ever criticize anything -- the Lindens, them, their idols, why you must be "jealous" because you can't create the wonderful things they can, or have the insider status that they have. It never occurs to them how pathetic this high school pageant is.

Ermmm...I'm not jealous of anything here. "Other people know stuff that she doesn't," this pathetic woman warbles.

Um, you know, I'll live, if I don't find out personally the inside deal that Yava and Patch have concocted to spread the spam over SL even further. Maybe "Asadorable" doesn't realize that the plans to have even more pods infest Belli was already relayed by Patch on the forums, with intimiations of more to come. If she is now privvy to those details, that's great, it does show that my critique of the FIC is still valid, however.

You know there is a simple way to prevail in this argument.

Yavanna, the pod mistress -- or the Lindens -- can tell us what the statistics are. How many people ride the pods every day? But how many of them are rezzed? Once you hear that coefficient -- the tiny number of people who actually ride the pods versus how many are rezzed, you'll know -- it's senseless not to have them rez on demand, where in fact they might get more use (people will develop the habit of going to the rez areas as they do with Linden rez areas). On the other hand, if it's a respectable number even at the level of "successful" junk mailing (2%?), perhaps you have an argument to keep them spamming. But maybe not. 

"Asadorable" imagines that if I "can't see everything on the mainland" (I don't pretend to) 24/7, then...by her "logic," I can't make a pronouncement about their lack of use when I see them empty -- everywhere, on dozens and dozens of sims. Every single day. For years. On end. 

If these statistics "aren't a secret" and it's only a matter of "my ignorance" as "Asadorable" claims... then...I'm sure someone will quote them on the forums or somewhere. I've never seen them, ever. The Lindens can see them, of course.

Curiously, what appeals to this Trump voter the most is the uniformity of the pods. That they are always the same. As the careen across sims... Well, that's not a selling point to me. Even in Trumansville, the people and vehicles that passed by were different. It took him awhile to notice there was a pattern to it... I imagine this sort of thing flies over Adorable's head, though.

I think in Belli -- our Trumansville -- the pods are not going to go over real big. That's my estimation. I could be wrong, as the fangirlz and fanboyz can trample over even the realities of their neighbours disliking the pans, knowing that there is little the "silent majority" can do about it.

"Asadorable" concludes with a homespun proverb that I am sure will warm your heart:

"The only thing that trashifies the Mainland is...people."

"You...me...e'r'body," she adds for emphasis. Indeed. But some even very ugly people still make nice builds and visa versa. So I'm not really sold on that concept. It's the problem around Wagner and Ezra Pound and all that.

I'm brought to mind of this great video and the satirical saying, "That's why I don't paint people..."

Remember Lee Linden said the sims ran the best when there were no avatars on them.

Curiously, in her rant, "Asadorable"  repeats in the video what she said in the IM to me, that the empty pods are "like" my "empty rentals". Well, I don't think they're so empty, but if they're empty, so what? I never heard of empty rentals bothering people before. Again -- the logic escapes me. Obviously, my empty rentals aren't like empty pods that keep spamming up the roads on sims -- they don't move.

She then adds, "What about your rentals, eh?" regarding "trashing" of the Mainland. This is to claim my rentals are an eyesore on the Mainland. I think she's just reaching here. I've never heard anyone accuse me of having "eyesores" as rentals, or even what tenants put on it. I think this self-discredits. Basically, her video, which won't be seen by very many people -- and I'm only adding to her views LOL -- is a 14-minute ad calling to cancel me. Don't think the left has a hammerlock on cancel culture lol! She's a Trump voter and reaching for the cancel switch because...I disagree with the falsehoods told about the pods. That's all. I just speak up. I criticize something I think is spam. PS others agree with me. Oh, that reminds me, I need to put up a poll.

"She claims to have rented from me years ago and it was a "dictatorship". I don't recall her -- maybe it was an alt -- but anyone can judge for themselves. I have simple rules, like you can't put out orbs on the ground -- they annoy people. You can't build over two stories. Less rules than many islands or other rentals agents have -- and the ability to refund, which you won't find with them.

It's pathetic when people reach for falsehoods to make their case. I guess she feels threatened. I'm not sure what stake she personally has in the pods or even if she rides them. I do notice one funny thing that happened. A year ago, she was putting out weepy notices about what an enemy Yevad was and describing these bad things he had done. I'm old enough to remember this LOL. Now that video is scrubbed, I imagine. Oh well. She made a big point of talking about her three friends and how they hugged together for the sake of the Mainland. OK, that's great. It's too bad that they justify not only the pods, but GTFO and are so uncritical of the Lindens. I don't know what's in it for them.

 

 

 

Posted at 01:38 AM in FIC, SIC, SOC, and Inside Dopes | | Comments (1)

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