Second Thoughts

Gilliana Parx · 2022-11-06T18:54:20Z

I know, a bit of a rude title, but i did not know how else to put it.

In the recent... one or two years in SL of the 14 I am apparently in here, i noticed that an absurd high number of creators not only sell their items No Modify (which i in itself find absolutely stupid) but - which i find far worse - refuse to list the permissions of the items they sell anywhere on the package. And while im sitting here since half an hour, trying to find out if a certain item is modify, i am also at the same time wondering...

Why the heck are we okay with this?

I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying? I don't agree to no mod and you might see that differently. Okay, fine! But can i at least be informed about the specifics of the stuff i put money in for, thank you very much?

I don't see any kind of movement against this, even tho everyone should be angry at that. In fact, it should be against the rules. In reality thats what we would call "buying a pig in a poke". And by now it seems to be a vast majority of clothing and accessoires related items for those big bodies that just don't tell you.

I want to mod my stuff. Either making my own texture for something, turning a piece invisible or just to link it, if some complex Roleplay-Outfit that also needs me to equip two huds and stuff makes me hit the attachment limit in day and age of extra heads, ears, hair, jewelry, eyes, piercings, a body, hands, feet and then some... I don't get whats so difficult in writing NM/C/NT or something similar on your product page. It can't be too much to ask...

What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?

Edited 22 hours ago by Gilliana Parx

Stephanie Lovely · 2022-11-06T19:02:07Z

Yeah, I just assume things are no modify unless they are actually listed as mod on the advertisement. You are right, there is a definite move away from modifiable items and to more customer hostile things like anti rez scripts too.

Charalyne Blackwood · 2022-11-06T19:08:40Z

Your use of "pig in a poke" is completely wrong. It goes along with "the cat is out of the bag". Both refer to purchasing something under completely false pretenses, and "no mod" is pretty up front. Don't buy anything without trying the demo first, that way you have a much better idea what you're purchasing or even if you want it at all.

Cell phones are a very "no mod" item, are they breaking some nonexistent rule by being so? "no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting and protects the creator's ownership of the design. Not all creator's set it up and that's their right to do so.

Gilliana Parx · 2022-11-06T19:15:12Z

22 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

Your use of "pig in a poke" is completely wrong. It goes along with "the cat is out of the bag". Both refer to purchasing something under completely false pretenses, and "no mod" is pretty up front. Don't buy anything without trying the demo first, that way you have a much better idea what you're purchasing or even if you want it at all.

Cell phones are a very "no mod" item, are they breaking some nonexistent rule by being so? "no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting and protects the creator's ownership of the design. Not all creator's set it up and that's their right to do so.

Expand

You did not read my post, did you? "No mod" is upfront. But the issue im talking about is not the no mod-issue but that its not even LISTED on the Product itself IF IT IS no modify. As i wrote, you can have a different opinion on no-modify but thats a different topic. However, Im pretty sure its in everyones best interest to know WHAT THE PERMISSIONS ARE before a purchase and that should be the bare minimum.

The Demo of the Product in question shows me exactly that, if it WAS modify, i could turn the part of the item that bothers me invisible. So, if it was, i would buy it immidiately. If it is NO MOD however, that piece is in the way of the outfit i want it for and will not work with the theme. So, its Schroedingers Item. Its either modify and fits perfectly or its no modify and i have no use for it. The problem is; I can't know!

And yes, i wrote the creator and i hope an answer comes... eventually... but i shouldn't have to write a notecard everytime i want to know what permissions the stuff i want to buy has.

Edited 21 hours ago by Gilliana Parx

PheebyKatz · 2022-11-06T19:16:14Z

If they don't tell you the permissions when they sell it to you, which they really should, I mean, there's checkboxes for all of it, sometimes you can look under the Contents tab and see if what's in the folder they're selling shows the permissions. If it's in a box or a depacker though, this won't be relevant. Usually you can tell if it's boxed, though.

And if they don't make it possible to find out, and they won't tell you, and you buy it and don't like it, leave a review saying so. Warn other potential buyers that what they're getting isn't Mod and isn't marked. Me, I'd just not buy it if they don't bother telling me. Why support someone who doesn't care if I'm happy as a customer?

Some vendors are total jerks and don't even display any but the good reviews, but you can always still boycott them and refuse to buy from them again, and I'm pretty sure letting friends and acquaintances know to avoid that seller might at least give them an incentive to change their ways, and at least not be so lazy as to refuse to tick a couple of checkboxes when listing an item.

Not sure about reporting, or how it'd work or turn out, but if there's any MP rule about it, you could probably report them, Iunno.

I hate no-mod stuff myself, but I sell some. But I try to make sure whatever isn't mod is that way for a reason, like a script I wrote and don't want changed. I don't understand why so many people wouldn't even allow a person to tint the mesh of an item, but a lot of vendors are indeed that stingy with their perms. Like if they only sell one shirt, and it's in one color, like white, at least let people tint the derned thing! The other side of this of course, is if they sell multiple versions of say, a shirt, and allowing people to mod the texture would be cutting their own thingy off. In that case, they'd be pretty dumb if they left it mod.

Anyway yeah, they could at least mark the permissions on it in their listing. Lazy vendors can't expect to get paid like hard-working and attentive vendors, and ignorance of this fact probably costs them a lot more than they realize. A lot of people are just like me, and won't buy anything if they don't know exactly what they're getting. It's almost as bad as misspelling all of their keyword spam, and never having their listing be seen by anyone who searches for it.

Edited 21 hours ago by PheebyKatz

Theresa Tennyson · 2022-11-06T19:18:22Z

22 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

Your use of "pig in a poke" is completely wrong. It goes along with "the cat is out of the bag". Both refer to purchasing something under completely false pretenses

No - "pig in a poke" refers to buying something with unknown properties, and "cat is out of the bag" is utterly different - a concealed thing suddenly becomes apparent.

"no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting

How?

Expand

Edited 21 hours ago by Theresa Tennyson

Gilliana Parx · 2022-11-06T19:28:06Z

21 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

If they don't tell you the permissions when they sell it to you, which they really should, I mean, there's checkboxes for all of it, sometimes you can look under the Contents tab and see if what's in the folder they're selling shows the permissions. If it's in a box or a depacker though, this won't be relevant. Usually you can tell if it's boxed, though.

And if they don't make it possible to find out, and they won't tell you, and you buy it and don't like it, leave a review saying so. Warn other potential buyers that what they're getting isn't Mod and isn't marked. Me, I'd just not buy it if they don't bother telling me. Why support someone who doesn't care if I'm happy as a customer?

Some vendors are total jerks and don't even display any but the good reviews, but you can always still boycott them and refuse to buy from them again, and I'm pretty sure letting friends and acquaintances know to avoid that seller might at least give them an incentive to change their ways, and at least not be so lazy as to refuse to tick a couple of checkboxes when listing an item.

Not sure about reporting, or how it'd work or turn out, but if there's any MP rule about it, you could probably report them, Iunno.

I hate no-mod stuff myself, but I sell some. But I try to make sure whatever isn't mod is that way for a reason, like a script I wrote and don't want changed. I don't understand why so many people wouldn't even allow a person to tint the mesh of an item, but a lot of vendors are indeed that stingy with their perms. Like if they only sell one shirt, and it's in one color, like white, at least let people tint the derned thing!

Expand

Marketplace is usually listed correctly-ish. I think if its wrong here, its in 9 of 10 cases a honest mistake. I mostly refer to creators with almost 90% of their stuff being in world only or on event sales.

And i do boycott that, if its not listed. But that kind of thing does not really do much in SL. There also is no real... counter movement against this i know of. There even is one against no modify, which i again agree is something you can disagree with me on (and i 100% agree there are cases in which something should and can be no modify, no questions asked, its a case to case thing to me), but not for this, which i actually think should be seen as a violation of sorts. |D

In world, i did not yet find an option to tell what permission an item has. Even if you buy from a box that you can inspect to see its content, all contents are usually listed as no copy, no mod, no trans, no matter what they will be when i purchased it. If im wrong and just do not see an option that exist i would be thankful to know! It would make second life a lot easier!

Edited 21 hours ago by Gilliana Parx

Charalyne Blackwood · 2022-11-06T19:30:34Z

21 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letting_the_cat_out_of_the_bag

Both phrases have references to purchase without knowing the details, whether they're simply hidden by chance or deliberately.

" no mod" prevents counterfeiting by not letting unscrupulous persons take an original item apart and using aspects of it to make their own product. It works quite well when paired with "no transfer" and even better with "no copy". I make houses for fun and anytime someone wants one they get it with copy and mod open because it allows them to add textures at will and to have an untouched copy on hand if they do something irreparable. One cannot counterfeit without having full edit ability over the item in question. It supports "do your own work, don't use mine without permission"

Charalyne Blackwood · 2022-11-06T19:38:16Z

21 hours ago, Gilliana Parx said:

You did not read my post, did you? "No mod" is upfront. But the issue im talking about is not the no mod-issue but that its not even LISTED on the Product itself IF IT IS no modify. As i wrote, you can have a different opinion on no-modify but thats a different topic. However, Im pretty sure its in everyones best interest to know WHAT THE PERMISSIONS ARE before a purchase and that should be the bare minimum.

The Demo of the Product in question shows me exactly that, if it WAS modify, i could turn the part of the item that bothers me invisible. So, if it was, i would buy it immidiately. If it is NO MOD however, that piece is in the way of the outfit i want it for and will not work with the theme. So, its Schroedingers Item. Its either modify and fits perfectly or its no modify and i have no use for it. The problem is; I can't know!

And yes, i wrote the creator and i hope an answer comes... eventually... but i shouldn't have to write a notecard everytime i want to know what permissions the stuff i want to buy has.

Expand

Yes i read your whole post. Seeing if a purchased item is no mod or not isn't at all difficult. Get the demo. Wear it (or rez it, whichever is the intended method of deployment). Right click. Select "edit". You're welcome. Looks like you're going to have a lousy SL experience by assuming all the creators are evil and out to get you. Why so eager to alter others works? If it bothers you that much, get Blender and Avastar and make your own stuff, just make sure it's all open perms so nobody thinks you're arrogant with the "no mod"

PheebyKatz · 2022-11-06T19:38:19Z

Yeah, if an inworld vendor doesn't have the C-M-T thingy showing the perms in the ad image on the vendor, I'd be skeptical of the contents.

And yeah, anyone listing items on the MP after a long night of making stuff can probably be forgiven forgetting to tick some things in the listing editor. Vendors with a conscience usually go OMG SORRY and fix it if you point it out to them politely.

And yeah, many creators really do not like people taking their stuff apart and making things out of it. Others are okay with it, which is why we have loads of full-perms stuff on the MP as well. It just usually costs a lot more than premade-for-the-consumer stuff, because well, people make stuff out of it and make money off of it. Anyone who makes anything has every right to govern their creations as they see fit. I give full perms on a lot of what I sell, just so people can make other things with it if they like, but even I have a few items I really don't want to see anyone sticking an invisible box on (so their name shows as creator) and claiming is their own creation.

Still sucks when you get something cool and pay a lot for it, and then realize you can't use it or make it work for you, though.

Edited 21 hours ago by PheebyKatz

Rowan Amore · 2022-11-06T19:39:13Z

Copy, mod, no transfer is the preferred way to sell anything...IMO.

Theresa Tennyson · 2022-11-06T19:39:50Z

21 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

" no mod" prevents counterfeiting by not letting unscrupulous persons take an original item apart and using aspects of it to make their own product. It works quite well when paired with "no transfer" and even better with "no copy".

Theresa Tennyson nods and smiles.

https://wiki.casperdns.com/index.php/CopyBot

Rowan Amore · 2022-11-06T19:40:14Z

21 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

Yes i read your whole post. Seeing if a purchased item is no mod or not isn't at all difficult. Get the demo. Wear it (or rez it, whichever is the intended method of deployment). Right click. Select "edit". You're welcome. Looks like you're going to have a lousy SL experience by assuming all the creators are evil and out to get you. Why so eager to alter others works? If it bothers you that much, get Blender and Avastar and make your own stuff, just make sure it's all open perms so nobody thinks you're arrogant with the "no mod"

Most demos are No mod on.purpose and tells you nothing about the original in that respect.

Theresa Tennyson · 2022-11-06T19:41:28Z

21 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

Yes i read your whole post. Seeing if a purchased item is no mod or not isn't at all difficult. Get the demo. Wear it (or rez it, whichever is the intended method of deployment). Right click. Select "edit".

So, demos have the same permissions as the purchased item? My, that would be a recipe for chaos, wouldn't it?

Charalyne Blackwood · 2022-11-06T19:41:49Z

21 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Most demos are No mod on.purpose and tells you nothing about the original in that respect.

Perhaps best to always assume No Mod. It doesn't bother me in the slightest of the creators want to lock down perms or not.

Charalyne Blackwood · 2022-11-06T19:43:39Z

21 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Theresa Tennyson nods and smiles.

https://wiki.casperdns.com/index.php/CopyBot

So? Copybots are a great way to lose your account. Do you have something of value to say or are you just so painfully itchy to attempt to one up me on something so insignificant?

Edited 21 hours ago by Charalyne Blackwood

LittleMe Jewell · 2022-11-06T19:45:03Z

22 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

"no mod" in SL prevents counterfeiting

Nope. While creators would like to think so, anyone truly determined to rip off someone's creation can find a way -- and No Mod will not prevent it.

I most definitely will not give specifics on that.

Charalyne Blackwood · 2022-11-06T19:47:44Z

21 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Nope. While creators would like to think so, anyone truly determined to rip off someone's creation can find a way -- and No Mod will not prevent it.

I most definitely will not give specifics on that.

Someone already did. Again, it's a fast track to account loss.

LittleMe Jewell · 2022-11-06T19:48:05Z

22 hours ago, Gilliana Parx said:

I know, a bit of a rude title, but i did not know how else to put it.

In the recent... one or two years in SL of the 14 I am apparently in here, i noticed that an absurd high number of creators not only sell their items No Modify (which i in itself find absolutely stupid) but - which i find far worse - refuse to list the permissions of the items they sell anywhere on the package. And while im sitting here since half an hour, trying to find out if a certain item is modify, i am also at the same time wondering...

Why the heck are we okay with this?

I already realized that there is a MASSIVE spike in self-importance with many creators, even tho their creative energy begins and ends with what was in a fashion magazine six months ago, but isn't it just a matter of basic decency to let your customer know what exactly they are buying? I don't agree to no mod and you might see that differently. Okay, fine! But can i at least be informed about the specifics of the stuff i put money in for, thank you very much?

I don't see any kind of movement against this, even tho everyone should be angry at that. In fact, it should be against the rules. In reality thats what we would call "buying a pig in a poke". And by now it seems to be a vast majority of clothing and accessoires related items for those big bodies that just don't tell you.

I want to mod my stuff. Either making my own texture for something, turning a piece invisible or just to link it, if some complex Roleplay-Outfit that also needs me to equip two huds and stuff makes me hit the attachment limit in day and age of extra heads, ears, hair, jewelry, eyes, piercings, a body, hands, feet and then some... I don't get whats so difficult in writing NM/C/NT or something similar on your product page. It can't be too much to ask...

What is your view on this? am i the only one seeing it this way?

Expand

For me, it depends on what the item is. I insist on No Mod for all of my household and landscaping items. I don't usually care when it comes to clothing as I'm seldom ever interested in making changes to those items. I prefer No Mod for hair, but I will accept it as long as I get a demo that shows it fits well and as long as there is a supplied color/tint that works for me.

As for specifying the perms on the vendor package, I think it should be - or at least most of the time. I think these days that it is so commonly accepted that clothing will be No Mod, that one only needs to publish the perms if it IS MOD.

Edited 21 hours ago by LittleMe Jewell

Gilliana Parx · 2022-11-06T19:49:11Z

21 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

Yes i read your whole post. Seeing if a purchased item is no mod or not isn't at all difficult. Get the demo. Wear it (or rez it, whichever is the intended method of deployment). Right click. Select "edit". You're welcome. Looks like you're going to have a lousy SL experience by assuming all the creators are evil and out to get you. Why so eager to alter others works? If it bothers you that much, get Blender and Avastar and make your own stuff, just make sure it's all open perms so nobody thinks you're arrogant with the "no mod"

Im sorry, what are you talking about? Demos don't show if something is mod, copy or anything. They show the permissions... of the demo. And naturally a demo is no mod, no copy, no trans because its something you didn't buy yet.

Again, my point is not the modify thing. Its not telling people the permissions upfront.

And to your criticism of me; 10/20/2008 (5130) This is my accountage. Im not new to this. Im also part of Process of Elemination. You are free to look that up on the Marketplace. Further im a Sim-builder and if you get the Second Life Weekly Newsletter or follow SL's Twitter; My work was on the cover on August 16 of this year. I am very much also creating content. So please don't talk like im some kind of Jerk who just wants to insult creators.

Edited 21 hours ago by Gilliana Parx

LittleMe Jewell · 2022-11-06T19:52:29Z

21 hours ago, Charalyne Blackwood said:

Someone already did. Again, it's a fast track to account loss.

Most definitely, but only if the person gets caught. The very determined will not be deterred by the possibility of account loss. Usually a No Mod setting is simply giving a creator a false sense of security on that front.

Now, I understand that some creators also do No Mod so that their "vision/design" is not messed with. For some things, I can totally understand that, but not for all things.

Ceka Cianci · 2022-11-06T19:54:43Z

I don't care for no-mod myself and ya, some have either gotten laxed with putting it on there, or came in seeing it as something normal to do, because they came in after we were already eased into no mod becoming a normal thing..

it's like that old saying, what you don't know won't hurt you.. New customers that joined after it became the norm, see the current as the norm..Older residents see it as a change and it's gonna bother some and not others..

Myself , it bothers me and does have an impact on things I might or might not buy..

The best way to treat at a creator or a full permi painter, that sets up a business in SL is, like a business.. Then decide if you want to do business with them or not.. Decide if what they are wanting you to buy, lines up with who you would do business with and who you wouldn't.. Then just stick to the rules you apply for yourself..

I always ask myself, do I reaaaally need this or do I reaaally just want it.. Does it line up with my rules.. If not, it's a good chance I'll find something similar somewhere else, because honestly, there aren't too many separating themselves from the pack and someone does have something similar elsewhere..

Find the ones that fit your rules and make a list of those places and do business with them..

Events and sales really are just the old big malls we used to have in SL, that had a bunch of follower stores, setting up in places to get side traffic from, the really good creators that were the cream of the crop main attractions..

Events and sales are pretty much turning into those malls, but over time many of the big name have reduced more and more over time.

Remember when fifty linden Friday used to have a lot of really big names in them? Ya not as much anymore..

Just look at your money as how hard you worked for it, then see how much of your own rules you are ready to break and why, to get this item..

I started looking at things in that light and really cut down on a lot of the clutter I was buying.. hehehe

Edited 21 hours ago by Ceka Cianci

PheebyKatz · 2022-11-06T19:55:37Z

On the copybotting subject: There are entire communities online that promote copybotting, and a ridiculous number of the people in them don't even seem to know what SL is, and/or haven't even been inworld more than once or twice. It's a confederacy of dunces for the most part, at least from what I can tell.

On the subject of selling stolen/fraudlent creations, a vendor in the anime community in SL was outed for selling things that they got for free on 3D asset sharing sites and not telling anyone that's what they were selling. The mall had a big sign up declaring the vendor a thief and that they had been ousted from the mall and were to be shunned. They also gave people the link to where the user got the free meshes and told people they could just go there and get the stuff themselves and upload it, because it was free for personal use, and NOT commercial use.

They soiled their own reputation for a while, and had to start making all of their own stuff to get any respect from the community. Last I saw it seemed they had learned their lesson and all of their goods were their own creations. I know people with throwaway accounts wouldn't care, but at least in this one case the vendor had enough emotional investment in their SL to try and make good on their mistakes. Probably for the best, because a lot of anime fans can be quite difficult to deal with if you take their L$ when they could have gotten the thing for free, or for the cost of uploading it themselves.

I'd be pretty upset too. Especially when they have the gall to make it no-mod, and make a big fuss on their listing page about what they'll do to you if you if you don't follow every jot and tittle of how they expect you to honor their rights as the "creator" of their ganked game assets that weren't even made with SL in mind. Protip: Uploading it doesn't make you the creator. It just makes it say you are. Few are fooled by this if they've seen more of the internet than Second Life.

Edited 20 hours ago by PheebyKatz

Gilliana Parx · 2022-11-06T19:55:39Z

21 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

For me, it depends on what the item is. I insist on No Mod for all of my household and landscaping items. I don't usually care when it comes to clothing as I'm seldom ever interested in making changes to those items. I prefer No Mod for hair, but I will accept it as long as I get a demo that shows it fits well and as long as there is a supplied color/tint that works for me.

I actually don't mind it with hair either. Often enough its just rigged anyhow, so there is no real point? And even if its mod it often is one big piece so even try-error texturing to delete bangs and all is not... really vaiable but thats fine. I noticed that many hair creators oddly enough do MORE modify recently or have, like... the bangs on the front be seperated items.

Gilliana Parx · 2022-11-06T19:58:28Z

21 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

There are entire communities online that promote copybotting, and a ridiculous number of the people in them don't even seem to know what SL is, and/or haven't even been inworld more than once or twice. It's a confederacy of dunces for the most part, at least from what I can tell.

On the subject of stolen creations, a vendor in the anime community in SL was outed for selling things that they got for free on 3D asset sharing sites and not telling anyone that's what they were selling. The mall had a big sign up declaring the vendor a gthief and that they had been ousted from the mall and were to be shunned. They also gave people the link to where the user got the free meshes and told people they could just go there and get the stuff themselves and upload it, because it was free for personal use.

They soiled their own reputation for a while, and had to start making all of their own stuff to get any respect from the community. Last I saw it seemed they had learned their lesson and all of their goods were their own creations. I know people with throwaway accounts wouldn't care, but at least in this one case the vendor had enough emotional investment in their SL to try and make good on their mistakes.

Expand

Would it be fair to ask who the creator was? Not to shun them, im mostly interested if its a redemption arc...

Yea, copybotting is just all types of wrong. It is basically theft... which is absurdly petty when a lot of items are like... the equivalent of a dollar or euro already.

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