Second Thoughts

Failed Linden Mainland Experiments Over the Years - UPDATED

Riderless pod spamming a Heterocera sim.

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

Jack Linden: "thankfully there will always be a mainland. v"

The nearly 20 years of Second Life's history are replete with ambitious experiments on the geographically-contiguous Mainland, both by Lindens and residents, and I think it's safe to say many of them ended in tears because of unintended consequences ("the tragedy of the commons") or damages to this or that legitimate group interest. 

There is always the inherent problem of the Lindens' contiguous Mainland and its many discontents and support tickets, way more than the minimal Linden staff can handle, and their seeking recourse in favoured resident volunteer groups who are not particularly deserving and generally serve themselves and their friends. This ultimately causes the Lindens to disband them or cease rewarding them.

The Linden Greco-Roman style palace in Tenera is a particularly vivid example. (I have my Silva Beach community across from this build in Sylvia). It housed the 8,000-strong (!) group of selected resident volunteers, managed by Lucy Linden, who were used as volunteer mentors and translators into "foreign" languages and other chores. It was essentially abandoned as a group and this Linden left the Lab, but not before one enterprising more-equal-than-others volunteer used the advantage of the land group settings to build a home in the sky for himself and his friends, not noticeable unless you happen to scan all levels of the sky regularly as I do as a nearby landlord. It's a gorgeous build and I'm for leaving it exactly untouched and for NOT reviving any volunteer groups of this nature.

This week, the ambitious owner of Operation Mainland (operation! like a war!), Feorie Friman, rolled out yet another project, involving a "subway in the sky" or metro of TP centers across the grid to "help explore historical Linden builds." It's actually another resident who has quietly and efficiently catalogued and promoted those old builds -- Aethelwine on the forums, who is also involved in the sailing community -- but Feorie is poised to coopt all that labour now into her "Operation" and "drive traffic" to old Linden builds in the hopes that, as the now-deleted thread revealed, she will be allowed either to put her stamp game in them (so far she has been blocked as the Moles favour only the BBB) or even be allowed to "repurpose" them or help in deleting and improving others. I personally don't want to play with empire-builders who work with forced and deceitful cheer combined with blatant suck-ups to Lindens (she may have mercifully removed her off-key singing tribue to the Moles) and other powers-that-be in this small pond to buff a resume that it is hard to know where else may be used. I originally took this in better faith than I do now -- I have withdrawn all my sites from "Operation Mainland" and blocked Feorie inworld.  I note that the Lindens leave her provocative and deceitful post up about what Patch Linden allegedly said about "repurposing Linden builds" but removed all my content. I do get how it works. The only way to win the game is not to play at all.

So the "subway" follows her other ambitious projects, some of which are neglected (like the stamp game, which never got Mole love, and is now sprawling and hard to follow), and others which outright failed, like the plan to buy up and "beautify" abandoned land for $1/m, and flip it as a completed "community" for slightly more $$, which didn't work because people can do this themselves for less and with less overstuffing of landscaping to save prims. Having failed to get Mole sites in her stamp game, Feorie ambitiously bought into expensive Bay City, the urban enclave built by the Moles and populated with their best friends, whose land is among the most expensive in SL. It's not clear to me that she has been lovingly received there by Maryanne McCann and the other worthies, but like draws to like.  Aggressive persistence can pay off in SL.

In recent weeks, she and other Bellisseria royalty launched an ambitious Linden-loved NatureCon, building on her recent funding (or only management of?) the Corsica South Coast venue Glastonbelli in collaboration with Bellisseria. This may or may or may not fall into disuse -- the history of Corsica Coast South, formerly Campbell Coast, has been tortured with the usual resident high-tier woes and land baron exploitations and is now going through yet another revival (I own some small amounts of land there which I rent out and sponsor some roads there).

Feorie, who was born in 2009 and took part in some little-known building projects for more than 10 years without fame, may tire completely of SL and go back to RL or to another world more suited to her ambitions (this may take awhile to come into being). Or perhaps she will live and thrive and finally obtain that Linden/Mole love she so desperately seeks.

Fortunately for us all, the Mainland is still vast enough and untilled enough that anyone can maintain or start their projects without impingement from these aggressive management types, and that's what I and others do. I maintain my 14 or so sims' worth of land across 55 regions and do not look for Linden love and try to walk around Linden indifference or hostility. I show my appreciation to them by payment of tier which I try to cover from my small rentals business and content sales.  This is still possible; I encourage you to do this all on your own without interference as it can be hard, but very rewarding. I maintain about 3 sims worth of public land open in the SL Public Land Preserve which I believe is the oldest "nature preservation" project in SL and certainly one of the largest. 

At one level, a project like the "Sky Subway" is "useful," and can't likely aspire to grid-wide or multi-continent presence unless the owner has endless resources to buy sometimes highly overpriced land. While focused on "the community" and "historical Linden sites," it *is* on resident-owned small parcels of 128 or higher to show up in search and fit a small "subway" build. Feorie might or might not use it to advertise other aspects of her business or her commerce circle's business and non-profit projects enhancing reputation. That's how SL works and it's fine -- people need to get tier paid and need to draw people to their projects in a world with crippled search and advertising capacity.

But I think it's important to pan out and take a wider look at the history of aspiring grid-wide projects and how they impact the Mainland, and mainly for the worse. It's not merely about this or that person's project. It's about the nascent Metaverse and how that replicates. Philip Rosedale has been very vocal about what the Metaverse should not be and really alone in the wilderness of Metaversal wannabee Big IT -- and that is he is adamant that it is "not for everybody," should *not* be built on blockchain; should have capacity for collaborative builds and a contiguous nature and so on.

I think he himself could focus more on inworld governance and democracy. His own world is replete of examples, some of his making, of the "tragedy of the commons" which isn't just about one person's sheep eating all the grass on the commons but about the nature of the commons itself and how it is governed. It is not merely about commercial interests but the interests of non-commercial reputational enhancement such as to gain recognition and social control in a closed society.

Here is some history.

Generally, the Lindens' formula seems to have been in the last 4 years to throw up their hands at the ills of the Mainland, some of which came from conflict vectors they themselves created, and to drive customers to Bellisseria, their zoned and managed communities with limited types of housing and landscaping and prims. Then, seeing they needed to still get reluctant Mainlanders to take the plunge to Belli if they had premium accounts (or not), they devised the BBB (Bellisseria Bureaucratic Bureaucracy) "Embassy" system, the stamp game, and NatureCon and "friendship" between their legacy customers on the Mainland and their more-resourced "Game of Homes" players in Bellisseria, and encourage more premium accounts and "exploration of the Mainland" as "things to do" is the perennial problem of all Metaversal engineers.

While these all have their pluses, they have decided minuses in that they funnel Mainland traffic to a select few groups and ignore or avidly block others, and they tend to turn the Mainland into a safari, where you make short, safe trips to culled and vetted locations in the hands of a few, and where land, if it is to be bought, is to be managed closely by select groups with restricted activities. 

But some of us do live here.  And not all of us want to stand by the roadside trying to sell our beads and glazed pottery and posing with tourists.

So let me cite some of these historical experiences over the years, not necessarily in chronological order and see if better proposals and outcomes could be sought.

o The Lindens created a "dwell" system whereby visits to people's original venues acquired points which then converted into actual monetary value in the awarding of Linden dollars, convertible to real cash. This quickly became gamed so that the most popular clubs, not necessarily the most beautiful, artistic builds, got the "dwell". On group land, the dwell could either be distributed equally to all members or accrue only to officers. Islands did not yet exist, so this was about the Mainland, and when they did come into existence, few afforded them, so it remained a primarily Mainland experience. The Lindens retired this system when they realized they weren't sponsoring art and education but wet t-shirt contests.

o The Lindens created a reputational point system with plus- or minus-ratings of points in categories like "appearance" and "building skills" which then eventually degenerated into popularity contests where people even paid for the points or held events and point parties where they could collect more points. Neg-rating became a form of griefing. The Lindens first nerfed, then removed the system.

o Now here's where it gets more interesting. The Lindens permitted a Features Voting System separate from the JIRA in which anyone could write in plain text a proposal for addition of features to SL or venues. So these ranged from "a pony in the welcome area," the famous meme directed at Lindens to "give the residents everything they want", to sandboxes or roads in continents where they were missing. This was beneficial and interesting but began to get sprawling and develop duplicates. People could still hold voting parties and even pay for votes, as they pay for "Picks," but the system was big enough to be self-correcting and not reward such gaming (the way the original Bitcoin was supposed to work). Eventually one empire-builder enamored with Capture Roleplay sites named Angel Fluffy (!) decided to take over the system.  Concerted tyrannical forces always appear in virtual worlds to make the Internet be what they want, under their dominion.

So he scripted his own system to scrape the feature voting pages and volunteered to "get rid of duplicates," creating lists for busy Lindens that they were grateful to receive. On the way, he simply removed proposals he didn't like, or as on the JIRA, felt the Lindens "couldn't do," thereby sparking a lot of dissent. The Lindens nevertheless let him "clean up" this sprawling Feature Voting System which they couldn't devote staff time to do. When some groups of people saw how one resident was allowed to change and destroy one system and saw their favourite proposals missing, and began loudly protesting, the Lindens got tired of the forums drama and one day Torley Linden simply deleted the entire system, not even allowing an archive.

 The Lindens created the telehub system, based on Philips admiration of famous urban planner Jane Jacobs. These functioned as planned to enable exploration and shopping and expansion of residences across the grid, but also became highly valued adjacent real estate selling for a fortune on the open auctions, so that only two large mall builders (Anshe Chung and Blue) began to win every high-priced auction because they had the investment of venture capitalists or their own resources. Rentals at these malls were also high priced, yet they democratized the oldbie guild system of stores very far from telehubs (which is why they vehemently protested them), in which older players would give newer creators a corner in their store until they got on their feet sufficiently to buy land themselves and attract visitors.

o Facing protest particularly from oldbies in older locations on the grid about lack of traffic to their stores, usually cloaked as concert about malls as avatar traps and builds that were laggy and hard to get around in, the Lindens built a whole new series of telehubs providing more access at least on new continents, which were more bucolic, with 4096 m2 of grassland or waterfalls instead of concrete around them. They built things like the Juice Bar in Brownlee. As fast as the Lindens could build these, the same two land barons and perhaps a handful of newer ones bought up this land.

o The Lindens sponsored a contest to win a sim without purchase price (then $1500 for islands and more for good Mainland auctioned sims) but with ongoing tier costs (also higher then). Very few residents responded, because of the high recurring fee. The famous "socialism on one sim" experiment of Neufreistadt was launched, as well as an experimental game sim whose owner then got fed up with the limitations of SL's code and performance. The socialism culminated in terrorism by one oldbie who destroyed all her builds made on the sims -- communes in this controlled world often end this way as I can attest to from personal experience -- but the group re-organized and has what is claimed as the "oldest democracy" in SL, although Luskwood is a democracy of sorts, too, and if democracy needs an adjective like "socialist" which is even hidden in this case, you can guess it's not too democratic. One of its other short-lived members more on the right-wing sidse also stirred up havoc on the forums and JIRA before leaving SL.

o The Lindens sponsored a building contest to build their inworld office by Waterhead, won by Adam Zaius' group, not surprisingly. It's one of the builds that other oldbies now itch to remove or refurbish and is no longer used.

o The Lindens promoted the SLRR and various rail enthusiast groups were born, notably the Virtual Rail Consortium in Tuliptree. I had the idea to have a building contest for a mall or park or other public property along the borders of the SLRR to encourage its use. When I publicized the contest on the forums and inworld, it was horribly griefed by people wishing to discourage any "realistic" or "business" use of SL in any way. While the Woodbury griefers and 4chan types were among them, I think there were Linden alts among them. Nevertheless one Linden (Garth Fairchang, who died in RL) gave me a model train to use in promotion. I persisted with the contest, but in the end I had to drop the "railroad" concept and awarded the build to Aliasi Stonebender who created Solar Plaza in Hartwick, and supported a resident-made railroad through 4 sims for a time. 

Meanwhile, the Lindens coopted my idea and sponsored their own contest to build railroad stations along their route, for which they would donate the land (in my plan, residents would tier their own land, but Lindens will forego income rather than let go of their favourites, through whom they hope to rule their empire, like Russians through Central Asians). Some of the most interesting historical builds resulted, such as the train station by Fallingwater Cellardoor in Neumogen.

o Another resident-made railway got a lot of Linden support and support from me in the form of donated land and through passage through rentals land. Nevertheless, this resident blighted the view with huge pillars and overpasses, forcing move-outs and abandonment, and then left SL himself, abandoning all his hard-won land. The Lindens grabbed it and dubbed it "Linden Right of Way," but never built anything on it. For a time, a clack of furry RR fans badgered me to give up land to put another railroad through, and urged the Lindens to re-start their railroad. Michael Linden appeared to mark the "Linden Right of Way" in Grote, but then not long after, was let go from Linden Lab (which was a shame, as he was a leader of the Moles and a long-time and experienced Linden). The furry caucus ranted that Lindens "sold me land" (they didn't; they auctioned some of their own protected land and a flipper bought it, and I bought it from him). To date, the "Linden Right of Way" remains fallow.

o The Lindens originally had two zoned sims, Brown and Boardman, where a 512 could sell for US $100 on the auctions, it was astounding. The same people who were in TSO's old Sim Arts, of which I was a member, Ingrid Ingersoll and Barnsworth Anubis and some others decided to "beautify" these sims and built a lot of Craftsmen-type houses to fit the suburban tree-lined streets. They began a campaign to get Jack Linden to tear down the old, dead palm trees (he removed a lot but not all of them) and re-build the marketplace to be less ugly (it now has wooden stalls that are passable) but he left a few odd old Linden things like Ryan Linden's very early prefab home which is more like a stall than a home you can move around in. The strange SL logo hand that came looming up at you from every mailbox on the properties was removed. It never really looked THAT great and its curious persistence in selling for high amounts doesn't seem justified, given that Brown is General and rents poorly. The Lindens ceased to police a rule they had there that skyboxes could not be put up in the sky (it's General) and never policed much the rule that commerce could only go in the MP area.

o The Lindens built another zoned area called Schermerhorn which also had houses to provide it a better look but residents bought the land and returned them, as they always do. This area was wildly popular and then suddenly wasn't, maybe when Linden Homes were built. The same thing happened at the sci-fi themed adult continent of Horizons, which sells for a fortune and has easements, beaches, and roads that help it look better, and even a "something to do" Linden-made game in the middle, but it has little use. Linden zoning efforts basically failed until Bellisseria, where Moles finally got the right mixture of house styles, easements, and better looking landscaping than in the original Linden Library -- and forced residents to keep homes good-looking by not allowing them to return them, although supply a half dozen or so styles in each theme to chose from.

o The Lindens retained the traffic system from the old "dwell" program, although they retired their leaderboard of the "most popular venues" as these were gamed with "camping" and other rewards system. But at a certain point they modified search to be more random and contain other algorithms not based on raw visitor numbers so that search would be "more fair". Then they began slowly to break search in many ways by incorporating Google Service Appliance. As fast as Lindens changed search, residents would develop new ways to game it and still do.

o The Lindens created a "First Land" system whereby only newbies of X age could buy 512 m2 of land to get started in SL at $1/m. They made postage stamp sheets of this land on new sims, which then quickly filled up with untended plywood and ugly builds. They tried to scatter them around more, but oldbies created alts and bought them. Soon land barons could see the advantage in making a lot of new accounts and scanning sims to buy First Land and flip it, sparking anger and protest on the forums. The Lindens tried cracking down on this, in part with their rule (which they say still applies) of "five accounts only" presumably on one credit card.

o The Lindens rolled out a map in which Anshe and other more alert land barons could see a PTP system was in the making, so they bought up telehub land and this time sold it, rather than renting it. Unaware players, thrilled with land going for sale which had previously been out of reach, bit hard. When the Lindens announced PTP and the impending removal of the telehubs, land barons, especially the bilked newbie barons protested loudly and threatened a "bait and switch" lawsuit as the auctions continued right up to the announcement, despite the plan. The Lindens offered a compensation of $7/m for all telehub land, or the prospect of entering the program for resident-run infohubs. The Lindens then rolled out new sandy coastal mainland, forcing Anshe and other land barons to now spend all the Lindens with which they had been compensated on that new desirable waterfront area, or lose business. The Lindens always win. It's their game. 

o  In the early days, the Lindens allowed 16 m2 parcels by -- imagine this! -- allowing all abandoned land to disintegrate into numerous 16-m parcels. The theory was that people on that sim would come and take only what they needed for a few extra prims. Instead, such land was abought by ad farmers and ads were placed all over, sometimes in the middle of pristine waterfront. Extortionist prices were put on the land forcing people to "buy back the view". One enterprising fellow put "Impeach Bush!" billboards on the extortion-sale land, figuring that liberal Lindens and many residents would not successfully complain about them and get action. Another less "idealistic" ad farmer just put a big happy face on his billboards. New continents began to sell far less on the auctions (back when entire sims were auctioned) because their views were so quickly despoiled. Land owners lobbied for four long years for the Lindens to develop an "ad farm" policy, which they eventually did, although it is unevenly applied today and certain seemingly non-commercial things like obelisks infest the grid even more.

o When the Lindens created the brand-new, pristine "nature" continent (then) of Heterocera, the Moth Continent with builds from the Magellan legend and the famous Moth Temple in Iris, they placed NO telehubs. You could not teleport there by any means and had to fly long distances -- which in those days was difficult across the void sims where sometimes your computer would jam or crash. Players with more expensive rigs would jeer at us newbs who needed "flying lessons". A few enterprising residents such as one on an old "colour" sim with an airplane system and another with a boat on the shore charged to haul residents to the new desirable continent. Some created "log-in lots" such as myself and charged low rents for them so that you could log right in to that continent. But without telehub transportation, sales and commerce languished. 

Forums "nature lovers" complained bitterly about teleport lag and commerce blight and land barons and urged the transportation systems not to be installed. The Lindens went all out, putting Linden trees and grass on Heterocera plots that did not count on your prim count. We were all hurtling toward "All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace" with computer drives turning into spinning flowers, when finally, a group of land dealers who had bought the land on the auctions informed the Lindens that they would dump the land and/or cease buying new land on the auctions -- those paying Linden's bills for this new continent -- if they didn't stop listening to the forums hippie caucus, made up of people who didn't own land in the area. They relented and put in about 4 telehubs only at first -- it turned out that all you needed for a telehub was an invisible prim disc, just like those made for landings on private islands, and you could put any build around it, it didn't have to be those squat brown urban uglies of the earlier era. So they put them within the Moth Temple or at Hyles Swamp. Eventually they added more as they realized "nature" wasn't selling -- people value "nature" tiered by Lindens or other residents but don't want to pay for it.

o Before there were scripted bot avatars, land barons bought up ad farms and deployed scripted boxes to scrape land-for-sale data and therefore get on top of the deals quickly -- then remain at the top of the land-for-sale list by flipping land they grabbed which had been put to sale for fire-sale prices or abandoned (whereupon they would request it). The Lindens eventually banned land bots, and some of these land flippers went out of business, but scripted boxes evidently used for land scanning (although who knows) still persist in many places.

o In the old auction system, all persons who bid on the land, as well as the winner, was visible, and therefore residents could see which land barons were deliberately bidding up prices to keep land prices in general high, and avoid them, and also see which land barons bought up smaller pieces of isolated land on sims to put extortionate prices on them to force people desperate for prims to buy them. Eventually the Lindens changed to a new auction system, based on e-bay (a founding investor of SL was Pierre Omidyar, the e-bay guy), that showed no names at all after the bid although they do briefly leave up a record of the sales so those patient enough could fly around and observe what's happening. It's still a system only a few land barons control. An effort to create resident-based auctions to try to defeat this rent-seeking failed, in part because of land barons disguised as ordinary end users as alts, and buyer's remorse leading to drama and further abandonment.

o The Lindens permitted two driverless vehicle systems, enabling the scripters to send vehicles of various kinds over the grid at will. One of them enabled some of these cars on Linden land to be purchasable, a violation of the TOS, and they also tended to crash and pile-up on other people's land. That person had most of their accounts banned. The other person was more discreet and the cars crashed less and was rewarded with selection of the system also for Linden-run events like SLB. Still, the Lindens didn't permit these driverless simplistic "pods" to spam up Bellisseria, likely because residents there wouldn't tolerate them. On the Mainland, they spam every 15 minutes and nearly 100% of them are empty. Polls I have done whether larger or smaller show significant percentages of residents oppose or don't even know about the pods, which is denied by their supporters.

o A resident concerned about the failure of vehicles at region crossings proposed a system whereby the BDSM viewer called RLV would be used to pick up residents and forcibly cross them at sim seams. This was rejected even by RLV users and the Lindens didn't adopt it, but continued to encourage grid-wide monitoring and proposals for vehicle crossings.

o The Lindens permitted a Grid Survey which used bots to scrape information on new islands, demise of old islands, and percentage of Linden and resident ownership on the Mainland. This was widely accepted as useful and interesting, but the owner faced problems both of a bot nature and of RL time needed for such a project to be constantly updated.

o Surveying the Mainland wreckage they had wrought, while paying their server and other bills, and noting that the revenue was so far less than from islands or even content sales on the MP, yet sucked up the lion's share of customer service time, the Lindens finally decided to build Linden Homes and give the residents what they wanted -- nice homes with predictable landscaping and the view never getting ruined in the commons by neighbours or barons, with plenty of roads and waterways (which are entirely missing on some newer continents, laid out hurriedly by Lindens for quick sales even as past continents filled with blight). This "Linden-Assisted Living," as it was dubbed, didn't really take off until the Lindens made bigger homes with even prettier landscaping in Bellisseria, then Fantasseria and Sakurasseria. 

o Enter the BBB, a resident created RP group aspiring to be the bureaucracy that ran municipal services in Bellisseria which was then blessed to run various public events on Linden land and an exploration system with the stamp game, which included Mole or Linden builds, some new and expressly built for stamps, and some old, to which they were added. Alone among residents, this group now has a home on a 4096 m2 parcel with 936 prims and two rez areas surrounded by water, unlike ordinary mortals with only 1024 and 351 prims, often island. No commerce is permitted as this is banned in Bellisseria -- although very active groups expressly targeting Bellisseria events have enterprisingly figured out that the way to sales through Bellisseria is to create groups and events where freebies are distributed, and then spam people with sales IMs later. The stamps had to be vetted and accepted and a kiosk issued on a discretionary basis, which meant that the appearance of new locations was slower and more controlled. A second resident group appeared (Operation Mainland) with a more democratic system whereby essentially anyone could register and upload a stamp site and provide gifts, with stamps allowed at commercial sites. This quickly acquired many more sites and traffic but wasn't tended as well, had uneven quality especially on commercially-driven sites, and could be hard to navigate if you aren't facile at Google Docs.

o The Lindens endorsed NatureCon, an ambitious event to bring together all nature recreational/explorational groups mainly from the BBB and related circles with LDPW endorsement and participation and a system for build applications and booths which remained closed and at the discretion of the organizers. This event, coupled with the BBB stamp game, places an emphasis on "Bellisseria as premium account ownership for residences, Mainland as exploration and recreation," while steering it away from  Mainland *residences* -- which spawns the need for more customer service and unleashes protests about the blight induced by ad farms and grid-wide would-be monopolists. If you only temporarily visit the Mainland on a controlled tier, what's to complain about? 

o The Lindens tolerated the Get the Freight Out game (founded in 2016) which has deployed miles and miles of concrete trucking terminals across the grid, causing those nearby not to buy or to move out. There isn't any perceptible link between GTFO and LL -- possibly they aren't compliant enough -- and they do not appear to have been "blessed," but let's just say that unlike the breedables space, where there are plenty of other breedable companies besides KittyCats and Teegle horses, there aren't any other transportation games that have ever gotten started. Yes, this seemingly "free game" in which the players tier the land their huge concrete monsters are built on, does have a HUD and add-ons you have to buy to play. GTFO often appears with big ad billboards and near ad farms, and that precise relationship has been documented in some cases with GTFO management but also remains unclear.

For months on end, due to the Virtual Railroads Consortium leader Qie reselling some 16ms I had in fact given to him back in the day to GTFO operatives, I had a giant ugly ad billboard in the middle of the sim next to my rentals. So I built a brick wall on it. Another VCR operative put a "night watchman" with a chair on another 16m2 roadside and kept returning the (invisible) prim on a build of one of my tenants, mystifying him. I finally got Qie who I had always respected and found helpful to stop the specious prim returns, whatever their "encroachment," but the GTFO took a lot longer to get off the sim. It was most definitely the billboard of a GTFO owner, not leader, whose land was right next to their headquarters. There has been a changing cast of characters owning GTFO over the years, and one of the current owners and operators, Famous Dismantled, a fae, claims she is conccerned about 16m2 blight on the old Teen Grid (evidently she means the Sith obelisks -- agreed). 

I also dealt with a witless booster of GTFO on the forums claiming that only "some" of the builds are warehouses when anyone can see with their two eyes all over the grid that MOST of the builds in this FREIGHT game are WAREHOUSES with acres of concrete. The fact that a few farmhouses or parks or whatever are mixed in to claim otherwise doesn't cut it. Again, I'm all for having "things to do" and I don't complain where I haven't bought the view. In Adscita, until I had to deal with Winning Witte's machinations, I turned my back to a GIANT and LAGGY GTFO hulking over the lake there and put out rentals which I ran for a few years more or less happily. But it is a buzz kill. That 2000 regular players in the group get to despoil the view and drive away residential lots for numerous sims across the grid is a key example of "tragedy of the commons". Long ago, the Lindens could have made zoned areas -- beach, urban, mountain, country, off-beat -- as The Sims Online did with naming categories of sims. Then GTFO could go on the urban sim along with all those giant tall buildings that ruined the value of Nautilus in its early days and forced me and tenants out after laying out $50,000 Lindens on the auction for a 1024.  Of course they didn't have the staff for policing zoning, and weren't content to leaving it to the Gladys Kravitz's of SL to AR. Then came Bellisseria, where zoning is built in.

I will likely think up more, and so can you, but you can see the patterns. Monopolists aspiring either to crude money-making schemes -- or more typically, more sophisticated reputation-enhancement schemes that lead to social influence and power -- get the Lindens' ear (within the staff, among residents-turned-Lindens, or residents chosen by Lindens for that "successful failure" combination of "competence but compliance."

Fortunately, entire swathes of Mainland (not to mention the bulk of the grid, private islands) remain out of the reach of the Monopolists and the Influencers, especially in the non-English speaking world, and there are still wild and untilled vistas where you can build your dream. For how long?

 

GTFO Strikes Back

Prokofy Neva, Virtualator

This is from 2019 and still relevant

Reprinting from the forums, where it may be removed or the thread shut.

This thread began innocently enough with Therese Tammas asking if there was any kind of "Mainland Appreciation" group. Indeed there are! I have the SL Public Land Preserve; there was once a group called "Mainland First" which did a lot of work before its founder gave up in frustration; there is Linden Roads Community which is very well organized and active; there are various other explorers' and mainland preservation groups.

Perhaps there isn't one with the very focused agenda called "Mainland Appreciation" -- so I made such a group and shared the ownership with Therese, who unfortunately I didn't know before in her 7 years in SL, but who is a friend and who impresses me with her energy and positive approach.

I'm not as cheery and positive, because I have been through many bitter struggles in SL, with Lindens and with griefers, and I have the battle scars to prove it. And I don't think the task is to forget grievances or dismiss people like me, but to appreciate what we achieved for the people today, a better Mainland with more prims, less ad farms, and better roads. It's not only to the credit of the Lindens' graciousness that we have these things; it's due to struggle. Civic struggle, of which I was one part. I list this here in red on this thread:

I then criticized GTFO, Get the Freight Out, whose familiar green-and-white rectangular sign is spotted all over the grid on the map. I feel it blights the map because when it entirely covers a parcel, you can't see the land's features or anything that might be around it. They likely encroach and use the fact that they are by abandoned or Linden land to make their signs bigger. It's annoying to see them all over, just like it's annoying to see giant rental company signs. I don't do that. I find it tacky and stupid. I don't think it gets you business, long term but alienates people.

So here's the discussion. I say the following, and one of the managers of GTFO, a thin-skinned, not hugely intelligent and aware individual from what I gather, comes on to mightily defend her turf, which hardly needs the defense she gives it -- which is misplaced. I always find people who tell you that you have "incorrect" or "biased" information about their clearly negative behaviour to be totally suspect and even just stupid. OF COURSE giant warehouses are not pretty. OF COURSE they blight the landscape in many ways. The fact that some are prettier, or that people love this game can't mitigate THAT BASIC FACT. So here we go:

GTFO is, on the one hand, a welcome thing because it "gives people something to do," it engages people in building and driving and exploring and such -- I had some tenants who created GTFO warehouses on my rentals. BUT the big problem with them is that they create huge, ugly warehouses on a sim, often by waterfront and roads, of course, and that brings down the whole sim. So it's a mixed bag. Not to mention their blighting of the map with their insignia. GTFO is everywhere, like Tiny Empires even though it doesn't offer any cash value, as I understand it, but is something to do. Maybe someone can beautify GTFO and get them to plan trees and put ponds on their big warehouse sites, but it's not really a solution for Mainland beautification.

 

Vega Firelyte

Hi Prokofy.  I just want to clarify a little on what you said regarding GTFO.  I agree, there is a number of hubs that do have warehouses but the owners are really quite amazing in putting them together, so I always have to give kudos to them for their design work.  They are not the only style though.  I have seen some amazing airports, farms, villages, wine yard (that one is really cute), gas stations, motels, vintage diners, neighborhoods (check our Bedos region), and GTFO HQ.  The GTFO game is a freighting game, where you go from one hub to another, collecting and dropping off virtual cargo and it's a great group of people, many of whom are very dedicated to beautifying the mainland and making it more active.  

I personally own a hub myself, over in Jeogeot, which is a farmers market/diner style and along with a few other hub owners over there, we have been working on building more of a community feel.  We have bus stops now at some of our hubs, so that if you want to take a bus ride, we have that and are working towards more little bus stops over on Satori as well.  I highly encourage you and anyone else to drop by our Basenville region, check out our event/display area, grab a bike and take a little ride through our Hill Valley neighbourhood, that is GTFO enabled, and check out what GTFO looks like now.

Theresa says:

Haven't played GTFO yet, but I was thinking there should be a version, "Get the Milk Out," For roleplaying deliveries of regular things like eggs and milk, and cat food, to residents? And yes, the warehouse thing I noticed too. The same people who like to play aren't necessarily the ones with the aesthetic sense, which is okay,  but then someone has to try to offer to help them, maybe.

 

Vera: There was an interview with the owner of GTFO by Luke Skywalker of Drivers of SL.  GTFO is changing and expanding in the future and Cinn Morgi, the owner, talks about the different things that are going to happen in that future.  One of the things will be the ability of hub owners to control what type of freight they will have in their virtual warehouses.  For example, I have a hub that is a Farmer's Market, along with a bakery, post office and cafe on my hub.  In time, I will be able to decide on what I want to have leaving my place, like eggs, milk, vegetables, pies from the bakery, etc.  Slowly but surely, the face of GTFO is changing and it's changing for the better as it grows.  If you want more information, please feel free to message me inworld and I would be more than happy to try to help you.

Beth McBain, who has already acquired animosity toward me because I challenged her gushing fandom over Bellisseria, and pointed out that she herself on her own blog commented that her boyfriend was away and she went to the PG Bellisseria just out of loneliness and something to do, and she then denied this, which was amazing, given that it was all said in her own blog. She yammered on a bit, although she came to agree with me on other points.  So in part she's now gushing about GTFO as retaliation against me, this is how the forums game is played:

Beth: I've really got to give this GTFO thingie a try. It sounds fun!

I think that one of the side effects Bellisseria is having on SL is a renewed interest in mainland. I know I've never once considered purchasing my own land for a variety of reasons, but now I'm on the hunt for my ideal mainland parcel. I'll be keeping my two Bellisseria parcels because they're so much fun, but I also have ideas of what I'd like to build on my own little plot of land.

Years ago, I did some exploring on the mainland, and pretty much hated everything I saw. It felt very abandoned. Lately, I've been exploring again and the feeling has completely changed. It feels lived in and well taken care of for the most part, and there are people around. The atmosphere on today's mainland makes me want to be a part of it. 

Vega, full of spleen now because I've criticized her organization, and refused to desist even when she "corrects my understanding," then says this, in reply to another user's question:

  On 10/16/2019 at 10:21 AM, Syo Emerald said:

Can someone explain what exactly this group is for? What is its purpose?

Vega: I'm not 100% sure, but it's a group of people who want to see the mainland improve, look better and be more interactive, which is my guess.  If I am wrong though, someone please correct me.

This is what is in the description of the group, "A group devoted to appreciating the Mainland by living, working or visiting the legacy Mainland outside of Linden Homes. Members get a free ad board with "Visit the Mainland" texture created by Jack Linden and a portal script to put in the location of your choice. Gifts will also regularly be provided. Chat is encouraged with recommendations, help, causes. We advocate for Linden policies to encourage Mainland living. A hangout is being developed."

I do admit, I hesitate to join because of that second last sentence, which I have put into bold.  I have seen that abused quite a few times and it all started innocently but went downhill at some point.  Myself personally, I would rather build a good communication between the Moles, Lindens, and Residents where we can work together without the word "advocate" involved and I don't really believe in policies being changed, to make it where you force people to do what you think is right.  I am a believer in people making their own choices.  I may not always agree with someone's choice but I do respect people having that right to make it.

Oh, for the love of Christ. This attitude of conformism -- what in the Soviet context used to be called "the aggressive  silent majority," ie people who suck up to the Soviet powers that be and don't criticize them publicly but bash those few who do quite aggressively -- so pandemic in SL, and it's so needless.

 

So I reply with both gun barrels, which I feel you have to do when somebody TAKING OVER THE GRID WITH THEIR GAME who is AGGRESSIVELY AGAINST criticizing the Lindens in anyway speaks in this horridly way like a com-symp. And completely turns advocacy on its ear, pretending that it is "forcing people to do what you think is right." What's been FORCED here, comrades, is the GTFO game all over the grid, and the Lindens' decision to make Bellisseria a priority and put all their top resources into it at the expense of making the rest of the Mainland more amenable.

Therese says charitably, because she's just a nicer person and has been in SL less time than me:

I'm at work so can't properly reply but I'm loving all this, and yes I think the moves done for Mainland has improved it immensely and renewed interest..there are still floating prims under 1000m in many areas but there is much more love and much more aesthetic planning than previously seen 10 years ago

Vega makes this intervention:

I agree @Therese Tammas, the mainland has greatly improved, compared to what it use to look like in the past.  I also like the exposure/attention that is starting to be directed more towards the mainlands.  Bellisseria was good for more than one reason, not just the kickass homes but the attention it seemed to bring to the different mainlands.  It feels like more people are considerate to their neighbours now, there is more care being taken with the land and it is looking better.  Yes, there is still areas that are problematic, but I do hope with time and more attention, we will see that changing as well.

Well, this simply isn't true. There isn't attention to the other mainlands. The Linden road building which began years ago, which has gone very slowly, which is incomplete in many areas, continues, and there are some nice Mainland builds, but it's nothing at all at the scale of Bellisseria. And you can't possibly say people are more considerate when in fact they aren't. I can tell you of dozens of situations proving this false, and hardly involving only me, as my examples wouldn't be trustworthy. Somebody who keeps their land that has lakewater passage on it blocked on access-only so that dozens of neighbours can't boat on a lake is not "considerate" but a total fucking asshole. The Lindens are to blame for setting up this situation -- it was unnecessary -- but they wanted us to pay tier, not them.

My comment:

GTFO is fine for what it is, but what I think would be good is if there was competition to GTFO based on a different concept. With "get out the freight" literally the root of your concept, the builds tend toward the concrete and steel and the warehouse, whatever eggs or baked goods you might weave in. So as I said, it would be good if some other group made a game/activity focused more on travel itself, or sort of scavenger hunts, or put and take of items, rather than the big builds which require owning or renting land. So for example, I could put out a box on my land that would be coded in such a way that someone could deliver eggs or milk to me or flowers or whatever. Just an alternative idea.

Vega claims:

I would say that it's approx. 60 - 65% of our GTFO hubs are a wide variety of different types of builds, other than warehouses, which is now approx. 35-40%.  I know this because I'm the personal assistant to the owner of GTFO and one of the ladies that helps occasionally do the setups for the hubs.

So what are these "wide variety of builds other than warehouses" given that freight is the main concept? I wasn't deterred from buying and renting out land by Lake Caldera, for example, because I find that GTFO locations don't always stay and sometimes fold their tents but there is quite a hulk of a one over that lake. And I could site others that were like this, i.e. in Itame, that are gone now. Once again, I can only tell you what I see in front of my eyes every day, and what I have seen isn't likely to make me go seek out lovely farmsteads but I'll keep it in mind.

{I could note that this 65% stuff is just an outright lie. Just go on any sim or 100 sims and look at the GTFO on the map and then TP to it. They are warehouses. WAREHOUSES. Not other things. It's astounding to me that she could tell such an outright falsehood.}

So here we go again with Vega "setting me straight" because I am not to believe my "lying eyes" of what I see on the grid, in front of me, but am to disregard "outdated information":

Vega: The reason I commented is because you are working with outdated information.  GTFO "Get the Freight Out", has been, in the last year, undergoing quite a few changes.  There is some areas that still hold onto the warehouse models and that is their choice to do so, which I respect but to say that is mostly what GTFO is now, is incorrect.  Cinn is the new owner from the previous one and she has been working diligently with our Server Elves in expanding and creating a system that will go beyond what GTFO was originally.  I think you will understand though if I keep some of the surprises to come, quiet at this time but let's say that the system is going to be more than just freight, in the future.

It's not "some" but "most". The main change in the last year is WAY MORE GTFOS which means way, way more map blights and warehouse intrusion. If the system is more than freight, I can only express the greatest apprehension, because managers with this much lying, this much misrepresentation of the situation on the ground, this much bullshit, will lie about whatever else they are doing because it gives them either financial benefit or reputational enhancement. Don't be fooled into thinking that people who provide games "for free" or that only have "in-game currency" that only has "inworld prizes" are somehow not making money. I'd ask questions about their rentals of land to players. I'd ask if the Lindens were in on it in any form. And I'd point out that reputational enhancement is not trivial. If you can put on your resume that you ran a massive cross-road freight game, it helps you in RL business and potential other related businesses in SL. This is not altruism, especially when you cannot tell the truth of it.

I ask:

So what are these "wide variety of builds other than warehouses" given that freight is the main concept? I wasn't deterred from buying and renting out land by Lake Caldera, for example, because I find that GTFO locations don't always stay and sometimes fold their tents but there is quite a hulk of a one over that lake. And I could site others that were like this, i.e. in Itame, that are gone now. Once again, I can only tell you what I see in front of my eyes every day, and what I have seen isn't likely to make me go seek out lovely farmsteads but I'll keep it in mind.

Vega says:

Correct me if I misunderstand but you are talking about 1 warehouse that is in your area?

Typical snide assholery of a public official who has lied from the get-go in answer to a legitimate complaint, trying to minimize your true impressions. Um, no, not just one warehouse, comrade. It's safe to say I'm talking about HUNDREDS. Go look on the fucking grid. I reply:

It's not that I'm working with outdated information. It's that your beautification message apparently hasn't reached all your users, and I can only repeat what I see on sim after sim after sim, and I'm happy to go out and take screenshots if that would help. I report what I see, not your aspirations. But SL is a big place. On other continents you may be more pretty, and I don't see it as much. I appreciate that you want to flog GTFO, but honestly, marring the map with your logo (needless), using a term that in fact is a swear word (causing brand confusion for sure), not having any way players can actually make cash -- these are all negatives and your effort, while as I said is great for giving people "something to do" is not without its flaws. But it doesn't matter, truly, because SL is a big place, and I have even had tenants with what might even have been some of your more unlovely builds, but everything needs competition in an open society and it wouldn't hurt for others to appear, just as with horses.

No, read what I wrote. I have land on 50 sims. I visit them constantly. Every day I see GTFO on a map of a sim somewhere. I see lots and lots of GTFOs every day. Beyond those 50 sims, i visit others, where I also see GTFO sites. Lots and lots of them. It's safe to say that I have seen dozens if not hundreds of GTFOs spread over 100 plus sims. Because every sim where I have land has a sim next to it. You're just not willing to hear the problem, but I don't want to go out snapshotting right now, I have better things to do. Accept that because you've given your users free will to use even old "outdated" concrete styles, they...do.

So here's just 5 that I quickly went and snapped -- out of the 5, only one is "aesthetic" in terms of being a field of trees and a dark, although the signs are cluttery -- the rest are all concrete bunkers and tanks and such -- good Lord, one even has Communist insignia. So having a diner among them makes it a little more amenable but they're still...warehouses. Because,  you know, it's a *freight* game. Click on any GTFO on the map, and you find them like 4 of these pictures, not the 5th. I realize there may be charming little Japanese kaiseki restaurants seating only 12 with fresh fish and roe and persimmons and leeks delivered twice daily on GTFO bicycles, creating gorgeously picturesque scenes, but we know what GTFO is. There's no need to argue about it. It's great you're diversifying it. Diversity happens when there's more than one company/game/product.

Vega replies:

Actually, I'm not here to "flog" GTFO as you say but to correct you with your erroneous statements.  You want to claim that they are predominantly warehouses, when that is not the case.  As I said, there is some but they are no longer the predominant style like they use to be.  You don't appear to really be open to correction though and it does seem that you wish to argue with someone who not only has the stats but has visited every one of those hubs, all 500+ of them.  

As for our Logo, you would have to take that matter up with the original owner on why they wished to have it like that but there is no brand confusion at all, regarding it.  Everyone knows what it stands for, including you.  Just to clarify, that logo is very small on the map and is used by the players to help assist them in locating the hubs, especially for our airbourne and water vehicles, though the road drivers do find it very handy as well.  Compared to large signs and logos that I have seen, that cover entire regions, it's miniscule compared to those behemoths. 

As for your point regarding the players earning cash, we don't want to be a pyramid scheme, like some games have turned into, so that is not really a flaw but more of a bonus, because you know we are not there to rip you off in extra charges.  

As for those hub owners who decide to retain their larger builds and older styled warehouses, that is their choice and I respect that because it is also their land.  Our company is inclusive, friendly and non-judgemental.  We won't force anyone to do something they don't wish to do. 

Um, actually, she clearly sees her job or role in a society keen on reputational enhancement to indeed flog GTFO. It's not small on the map. Open up the map of any sim area and you will see it, and note that it is not "small".  It's not miniscule. And it does cover more territory than a small 512 parcel in most areas for sure.

Within 5 minutes, I found 5 and snapped them -- I could have done 105. It will never be enough for someone as aggressive, duplicitious, and dim-witted as this:

Vega: That is a mere 5 and of those 5, one is a Leeward CC area primarily.  That is what they are set up for mainly.  Unlike you though, I will respect their right to set up their land the way they wish.  As I said, between 35-40% of them are warehouses and we have 500+ hubs.  I could also take you through Satori, Jeogoet, Sansara, Heterocera, Fruit Islands, Bellisseria, Corsica, and Nautilus, to name some of them, and show you a ton more that are all really well put together and varied in style.  I'm sorry Prof, but you have your view point and it is erroneous.  I just wanted to correct it but I won't waste more time on someone who just feels like arguing.

See, here's the cruz of the issue she unwittingly reveals. She doesn't police their users. Nobody does. They can "do what they want". It's not true only 35% are warehouses -- she's being literalist by conflating the fact that some of them involve sea or air freight and are staging areas and not technically roadside "warehouses". But they still involve concrete, steel, wood beams, and ugly industrial aesthetic. Some people love industrial aesthetic in SL. I like some of it too. Just not EVERYWHERE. It's not that I'm "incorrect". It's that I'm telling the truth about what is before my eyes, and can be before your eyes, too, if you look. 

I reply:

I think it's great that you developed this game that has kept people involved with the Mainland.

I can only report what I see EVERYWHERE with my own eyes in what I think is a fairly large slice of SL. You keep saying that X percent of the sites are different, but they are different by degrees that still don't mitigate against the whole concept of "warehouse" which by its nature, cannot be an aesthetic park or beach. Clearly, you are very attached to this and spent a lot of effort on it, but it's simply not persuasive to keep telling someone like me who sees a LOT of the Mainland that they have "erroneous information" when I see what is in front of my eyes.

It's like this horrendous plague of driverless vehicles. I literally see hundreds of stupid green flying buses a day that in any other context would be considered spam and griefing. But because Lindens love the idea of load tests and sim seam tests they don't have to do and pay staff to track, and because there was that one time that a forums queen went on one of these vehicles in 2010 and thought it was delightful, those of us who actually live and work on the Mainland have to suffer this blight. Try to hear it. The map is a shared space, and GTFO is a tragedy of the commons. It's hardly the worst -- the big hearts and those GIGANTIC domes are far worse a problem, but it's annoying.

The logo isn't "very small" on the map because it covers the whole parcel. Lots of people do that and I find it tacky and annoying. It's everywhere. It's also your right. Since it is so hard to find entry into the economy, it's a shame that it doesn't have cash really, although I realize that has all kinds of pitfalls. Maybe it could be like Bing, make users who want to play "Rewards" spent ridiculously long amounts of time searching for stuff or filling out quizzes in order to earn a US $5 value Amazon card. You could give them gatchas once a week.

Your notion that the WAREHOUSES are built better in Nautilus or the Fruit Islands (those are islands, not Mainland) -- again -- doesn't mitigate the fact that they are WAREHOUSES. Because, you know, it's GTFO, hello! And you haven't supplied any pictures, and I gave you 5 in 5 minutes.

Um, I don't "disrespect" their right to do WTF they want on their land, that sacred FU hedonism of Mainland creed which is responsible for its greatest ills. I have even rented to customers who put the damn things on my lot, and since technically they didn't violate my rules, I tolerated it, although I don't think my neighbours with pretty seaside cottages were very happy. But you have a problem here even if only 30% are ugly because of your free-will values. That's a high percent. The end. You're welcome to have whatever last word you need to have, everyone else knows what their eyes see.

anamats, who is someone who repeatedly came to my sim and repeatedly abuse-reported me for encroachment because 1) I criticized his plan for massive takeover of the cross-sim issue with vehicles and scripts of his making 2) he believed falsely that my tiny "encroachment" in Grote was preventing his vehicle from driving -- it was actually a poorly-made Linden road which the Lindens came and fixed -- but not before banning me for a day from SL, losing me business and income, even if in small amounts, for my supposed encroachment. I marvel at this because I went to a great deal of effort to move my ramps and parking lots, even though it now meant my tenants couldn't get out of the parking lot easily at Flamingo Court, so if there was "encroachment" remaining it was miniscule, something missed. But still, I got banned for a day. Because that's how they role. They chose an aggressive scripter of their own clan who loves Capture Roleplay games (Ugh!) with grand visions of grid-wide schemes, over a person who pays them a fair amount of tier. This has ALWAYS been the problem with the Lindens.

Just because it's industrial, it doesn't have to look awful. The climbing ivy improves the brick wall.

A friend's freight hub. Simple and well-kept. Decorative fencing helps here.

Should SL have zoning? Something to think about for mainland. Bellesaria is single-family residential, with occasional public areas. One of the big landlords has about five different zones, from single-family residential to heavy industrial. New Babbage has building inspection for city consistency and quality.

@Vega Firelyte Oh, hey, I see you're my new neighbour in Tuliptree.

And that what you decided to do was to find some abandoned land near one of my areas, buy it, and put up one of your delightful GTFO outlets and get in my face, ensuring that those parcels near it will be unlikely to rent (as is usually the case with GTFO pops up, something I tolerate in my own rentals even when I rent to GTFO at the expense of other parcels, it's a balancing act). I researched this, and I realize you're going to claim you didn't do this, but that's what you did.  

This one is called "FarmFresh" although it has neither a farm or fresh food, but perhaps those are to come? More to the point it has two gigantic, unnecessary billboards. One is on your land, and the other is on a 112 m microparcel you sold to an ad-farmer who put your GTFO ad on his board.

Ugly, unnecessary, and not viewed by anyone, except put deliberately in my face because I dared to criticize your blighting of the Mainland. It's not enough that you entirely blight the map with GTFO every few squares; you have to put up these big billboards which hardly anybody sees except my tenants in small residences who aren't going to do GTFO -- those who want to already rent large parcels. 

You bought land which has literally been abandoned for something like 12 years, since the Lindens cracked down on first-land flippers (they don't have the first-land program any more) and banned some of them and their land was abandoned. The nearby railroad apparently bought it and then abandoned it much later when they needed to tier down. So you requested it, with a mission in mind, I saw what you did there. It's ludicrous, because if speed and efficiency are a function of your game, trying to worm your way out of that tiny entrance and through the railroad works to get out to the highway -- it's NOT roadside - is a ridiculous time loss. 

So when people deliberately try to harass me over my opinions on the forums -- which are valid, and my experience, and my right -- I abuse report them , although it goes "nowhere". But I do think the Lindens need a policy not to sell abandoned land to people who then cut up microparcels for ads or to sell to ad-farmers. They may feel secondary purchases are impossible to police but that's what ARs are for. Abandoned land, which the Lindens now are unloading in large numbers, contrary to their past much slower and more miserly policy.

Remember, those tuning in, my VALID criticism of GTFO's blighting of the map (it's everywhere) and warehouses taking up the view in most of their views, is not my personal opinion, and not driven merely by me having residential lots for rent, but a feeling shared by many, including even in this thread. And our expression of this criticism doesn't harm the increasingly monopolistic and oppressive GTFO, which hasn't lost any business because a few of their neighbours complained on the forums, read by 5% of the user population. If anything, it's GTFO that hurts the business of other businesses next to them, or hurts the pretty view that someone thought they had when they bought, say, lakeside property. It wouldn't occur to me to someone try to sabotage or boycott GTFO merely because I don't like their builds -- that's wrong. And as I've said numerous times, I have tenants doing GTFO! 

But when people attempt to harm me or my business in SL, I fight back. I AR them. I ban them -- that's the minimum, let them taste banlines.

I wait 30 days. Most things go away in 30 days, for all kinds of reasons. Since escalating action often leads to the opposite effect -- you complain about an encroaching build and sim crashing, and you get a giant refrigerator on your cost for four or more years -- I wait.

Then I go to the next steps.

o Brick walls on all sides of the billboard. I have the prims to go up to 4096 if need be. The Lindens have a rule that you cannot totally block another's property on all 4 sides -- this method of fighting the ad farms was something they used to punish users for, as they sat idly by letting their fellow computer programmers sell 16m parcels for $10,000 and remove giant IMPEACH BUSH or MR. LEE'S HONG KONG ad boards. But you can block on 2-3 sides, and with cooperative neighbours, that's often enough.

o Constant publication of bad behavior

o Continued ARS, urging all those affected to AR.

o Mass petitions -- I have a tenant on one sim who got so tired of ONE PERSON blocking the sailing on an entire lake because the Lindens were foolhardy enough to sell water inside lakes and not create Linden protected land inside them that he got dozens of people who lived there to petition the person doing this. She hasn't taken of "access only" yet but he will keep at it. People who put "access only" have the right to do so, and they believe it is necessary for privacy. But there are several ways you can do this and mitigate it:

-- Only put your land to access only when you are actually logged in. If you are mainly not logging on to SL, there's no reason to block boating around your land for everyone. If you're afraid they might fly up to your skybox and go on your sex furniture, understood, but you can either put that away or put up an orb just for the perimeter of that skybox. To block your entire parcel of 4096 plus, when you have no builds on the ground, is insanity.

-- Cut a 32m strip around your land -- leave that open. Put the rest of your land on "access only" but for the love of God, at least let people pass by on water or roadside without being bashed by banlines or orbs.

The Lindens have gotten lax about policing ad farms, and I see them back again with the same insanity, ugly builds and ridiculous prices to "buy back the view". Their rule is that you can't have more than one per sim, I think it is. So that's a basis for ARs, but sometimes just an AR for the extortionist price, if there are multiple instances, can be enough.

When you deal with me, you'll find that I can wait forever. I can wait years for situations to be righted. You can try to harass and bully me off my land or discourage me from expressing my views, but it can't stand. So give it up. Mind your own business. You have enough of the grid under your control without deliberately coming to harass me and my tenants.

Anti-Anti-Anti-Rez

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

So that was a very long post because I think out loud and publish my reflections. I thought it would be interesting to think of all the experiences I have had with Contraption over the years, such as they are, as someone totally on the fringe of what I now see is a fiercely-tight-knit and loyalist posse. That is, there are likely hundreds -- thousands -- of Contraption customers who don't read the forums or social media or follow any of these issues, and are just busy trying to figure out now why that funny bird they bought broke when that man at the store seemed so nice. 

But on Twitter, there are all kinds of furries available to pounce, and it's hard to walk around the robots.

So I want to summarize this unfortunately wrangle because it really is important not due to the personalities involved but the issue of how you deal with IP protection in virtual worlds -- through the edicts of top creator gods and their notions of life, or tools within the viewer that may not work, or control of third-party viewers with Copybot capacity that log on with the rest of the majority of the population.

None of these topics are taboo, outdated, or not allowed to be discussed by non-technical people, because we all have a stake in the world.

Walton Wainright issued what he perceived as a "public service announcement" although it had the curt and annoyed tone of an edict. He urged people to stop using anti-rez scripts in their no-mod clothing because such scripts didn't protect against Copybot, as is rumoured, and they only add excess script time and cripple sims and RP choices.

So with this edict, he impugned that creators of clothing -- and many are women -- are stupid. They believe in a myth. They don't know any better and use totemic icons to ward off the evil spirit of IP theft. Worse, they bring down the wrath of content kings like himself because they forced him to buy a new RP outfit -- he couldn't open up the no-mod item and reduce its script usage.

Oh, possibly he meant only NEW creators who didn't know any better. He didn't say that until much later. I will be contacting every user of these scripts simply to hear what they think. I like to check stories.

I don't go to RP sims or at least very rarely but I got to live music and DJ events and art gallery openings and I get it about the need to reduce script time, which is usually done by removing attachments, as a kind of common courtesy in SL. I have no idea if Walton Wainright ever goes to live music or art gallery openings, I never see him. SL is such a small world that every time I go to a shopping event or any event at all, I will see if not a friend or acquaintance, a tenant. I can walk along the mall at Shop 'n Hop and see many people I know. And I'm not famous, and I'm nobody compared to Walton.

So when Walton, who is famous, and the top content creator of SL in my view (not necessarily MY favourite, but the recognized King), I worry when he basically tells everyone to take out IP theft protection scripts, they don't work.

I don't like that, because I know they do work -- when we are talking about certain use cases, and that means givers of food and full perm mesh, among others. 

And that's because the problem MOST creators face isn't Copybot, which isn't as ubiquitous as imagined or we wouldn't have the world we have, but theft by conscious human beings taking full perm models and violating the TOS that went with them. Or taking full perm items meant as freebies for the community, and selling them.

It took a great deal of persistence, and stamina in getting past all the goons that clustered around Walton (I'm going to credit him with not having whistled for them) to keep explaining why he was being so destructive in his pronouncements and get him to climb down.

He then conceded there were other use cases, conceded that for full perm items that were temp-rez, copyright protection scripts made sense, or for certain other uses like HUDs in a game and felt chuffed that he had repeated himself three times -- but I only repeated myself because he still wouldn't see the larger picture.

For one, I don't think he covered all the use cases -- he never acknowledged that some creators just want to make sure people are driven to "add" or "wear" and don't start rezzing things out. He didn't acknowledged that the close perusal of a rezzed-out dress doesn't need Copybot -- it can mean a person is "inspired" to make a similar item, so similar it leads to vicious catfights on the forums, inworld, and on Discord. My God, it's Hair Fair right now. Do you think there isn't a diva weeping into her pillow somewhere that her hair has been stolen?

The regrettable affair might have ended there, but then I began to see Walton in his sub-tweets, and realized I had granted him too much the benefit of the doubt.

Walton styled himself to his posse as someone patiently repeating himself, and even offered a paw of sympathy to a skunk who claimed entirely falsely that I had harassed him, based on his garbled reading of my time line, and claimed I even come into another conversation to harass him. So because I merely responded to a tweet I can see in my feed, this skunk felt his safe space was invaded. The enormous thin-skinned nature of these geeks and designers! They have this provincial belief that they talk only among themselves in their posse when online, and no one else can comment! Why don't they go on Discord and filter the door? I often find these people don't realize they are on the Internet, on Twitter, where anyone who sees a RT of them, or who looks up a topic (I seldom do that) can talk to them. They can always use the mute button. None of them do because they are endlessly primed for drama and curiosity about what you will say.

Of course, if that other convo involves the transgender topic and the debate around "pregnant people" from PaulaNYT,  and you happen to disagree about that term, even if you support transgender people and acknowledge their authenticity, i.e. opposing Macy, then you will be prima facie a TERF or a Trumpkin. So that skunk can then run whining to Walton, who is gay, that someone is mean about LGBT. All of that is utterly false and you just have to read my tweets.

Add to that the utterly insane goon who appeared with my vandalized Wikipedia -- I assure you that a) I don't think Black people put bugs in Romney's apps or that b) because a Democrat shop had a Black coder in it that they deliberately made Romney's apps fail. You can go and read my blog instead of the insanity of Wikipedia and anonymous idiots on Twitter. 

Yes, if SL weren't bad enough, with its totally screechy and unjust forums, Twitter is even worse with these personas. 

Now why did I mix in with this? And I'd do it again in a heartbeat because I don't need to be popular and loved the way these people do.

Because I don't think Walton should tell people their efforts to stop Copybot are empty and worthless -- and indeed they are -- without providing an alternative.

He hastens to tell you that the alternative is him being nice and helping designers with DMCA takedown notices. Sorry, that doesn't scale. He wants now every creator who uses anti-rez -- and there are thousands of them -- to come to his door now? Because Copybot is everywhere, right?

This haughtly dismissal of people's home remedies and admonition to go file DMCAs aren't just condescending, they're absurd -- because we live in a regime that has permissions supplied by a company that claims it provides acknowledgement and protection of user IP, unlike other tech companies. 

Once having put in those permissions, they need to be challenged FOR SURE when they are breached by third-party viewers. The end. This is not hard to understand for those who aren't immersed in the open source cult. 

If you think copyright can only be protected by DMCA notices, why have permissions? They are pointless then. Let's remove "transfer" and be done with it.

After all, Contraption has another very important weapon in the war on Copybot -- the posse. You can be sure that if someone rips Contraption's lovely frock coat with the alchemist symbols, which I wore myself for weeks, that an entire goon squad of his loyal customers and pals will descend on that ripper's head. That's always the social quotient around Copybot incidents.

There might not necessarily be any finding of facts as in a court of law. But if the fake coat isn't removed from the thief's store, then LL might step in, especially if you have a hotline to Lindens as a top creator in their Shop 'n Hop, doing their builds. I would think not 24 hours would pass before a DMCA notice, an alert to LL, before that creep is pulverized and removed from SL, with only red mist where he once stood.

Meanwhile, someone like me will need NINE MONTHS to get grief cubes on physics tumbling up and down a nearby lot with a no-show neighbour removed by Governance.

I can discover something I bought on the MP is in fact a famous cartoon on iphones that I just didn't realize; I can try to send a protest or a complaint somewhere -- but the Lindens don't take complaints -- there is no space on the AR sheet. I can only use the posse method as well, telling people in groups not to buy it, deleting it from my inventory, posting a blog about it. 

LL would have to wait for that famous cartoonist to take an interest in Second Life and send a takedown notice to some fly-by-night operation hawking bad copies of her cartoon on the MP for 10L.

Where is this going to lead? Increasing stratification between top designers with LL's ear who have the resources -- and RL businesses -- to file DMCA takedowns to Copybot wranglers -- and the rest of us who don't. Between people with the loyal posses to fan out and bring retribution to Copybot fencers -- and those of us who don't.

But there are other solutions, about which I will post soon.

Contrary to Contraption

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

Ezekiel at Bassett Town 2022

MY GREAT ADMIRATION FOR CONTRAPTION

I've always had pretty much unadulterated love for Contraption, namely Walton Wainright (faust steamer), whom I have interacted with the most over the years. I happily spent fortunes on their gatchas, I buy a lot of their products, although my name may not appear because I have an alt with artificial limbs who is their greater customer, and another alt in their group that I don't log on to much so I don't have to listen to the inane chatter from the group. I'm not a big fan of bloody metal plates that cover my avatar eyes or metal spiders that attach to my face, I'm a norm. But all the steampunk stuff with gadgets and goggles and wind-up things, especially gramophones, I'm a big fan, just like other norms.

I have spent actually many happy hours listening to the Wild West theme Contraption devised for their Fantasy Faire sim, which to me, looked like a Wild West town from Upstate, New York.  

It does sound like they took a World War I tune and Wild Westified it, but that's Contraption, I like that. I have a lot of those gramophones all over. When I say "hours," I'm not kidding. I put that latest one from Bassett Town in this complicated quest I'm making called "The Engineer's Wife," about a Japanese engineer and his Roma wife who goes missing in the late 1800s in Peru. 

Most of the crowd around Contraption are RP types into all kinds of metal, steam, goth, BDSM, whatever. Doesn't matter. I'm always for people doing their own thing on their own sim and everyone else having tolerance for that. Pluralism. And tolerance. It's the principle by which I run my rentals, where anybody of any lifestyle can rent as long as they follow my simple rules and the TOS, like not going over your prim limits.

MY RESISTANCE AGAINST EXTREMISTS WHO INVADE THE PUBLIC SQUARE

I'm not for masters clinking into the public square with their slaves on chains because I think the public square should not be taken over by ideologies that suppress other people even if they claim it is voluntary. The public square should remain a neutrality of pluralisms with tolerance but not hegemony, not an endless serial of diversities, any one of which can become hegemonic.  The presence of so many safehouses for subs tends to give the lie to that claim but I'm not here to debate BDSM today.

BDSM is the lifestyle that is barely restrained -- to make a pun -- at FF because it is G-rated, but the pagan religion and master/slave ethos is everywhere in RP and it's hard to find RP without it. Most RP or even art sims have a very strong male character with various female characters arrayed around them in slavish adulation, with very harsh practices of exclusion and very intense practices of initiation, like cults. (Their RL genders aren't important.) This is Second Life. This. This is the culture everywhere, in a store, in a game, on a shopping sim, on the forums. And I push back against it because I don't like oppression and PS I don't think "capitalism," which doesn't really exist even in the US is more oppressive than "socialism," which doesn't really exist anywhere either.

So, on the rainbow of SL styles and venues, I see Contraption on the lighter and more fun end of the spectrum -- they don't have pale neckos with deep and bleeding flesh wounds and spiked jewelry every Saturday -- maybe just like every six months. If you don't like the weather at Contraption, wait five days, it will change.

What a contrast to my accounts for work and my RL self, and my SL Twitter account. On the RL accounts, there is debate about transgender and abortion and Ukraine and guns but it is thoughtful and intellectual and there is a spectrum of opinion on the left and left-of-center where I am. On my SL account, there is hysteria, calls for violence, insanely distorted stories, disinformation, and everything from QAnon and no-vaxxers to extreme trans totalitarianism and NJ girls getting up a gang to go get Kavanaugh -- it's highly creepy. My feed looks like that on that account because it has SL avatars and tech dudes. That's why. That's how they are. Contraption isn't out at the extreme, even if their customers include some of these goons, one of whom, yes, said he was mounting a "hit" on me. Sigh.

THE TABLEAUX

Still, there's one feature of the Contraption mythic rituals (which I participate in only in a "lite" way or with "OOC" over my head) which I find faintly creepy but then, maybe I don't fully understand it. Again, I don't go to the Contraption parties or play on their affiliated RP sims, I just go to the store and buy something now and then. So my alt went to their 10th anniversary awhile ago, and each time he went to that booth to collect the present for the 10 days, buying gatchas along the way, he found people standing around, posed in their steam get-ups but not talking. Well, that's common, people go to events and go AFK all the time, the managers should just boot them if the sim fills but it hadn't filled really. Or maybe they weren't AFK in fact, but just, I don't know, "Voguing."

And standing at the center of a circle of totally decked-out steamers were Walton and Victor, magnificently dressed in their WW I era gentleman steam duds with all the bells and whistles. They just stood there, swaying slightly -- and they were AFK too. After a few times visiting and seeing them, I realized, that was how it was supposed to be. It was like a tableau -- like the living tableaus of the Soviet era, like the Mormon pageant on Hill Cummorrah (which was 30 miles from our house so we used to go to it every year).

It was -- as I said -- faintly creepy but then it was also kind of like the bot models at the entrance of Fallen Gods. Why not have the actual people's avatars instead of bots? That's fine.

At FF, was it 2 years ago, there was a city called Somniatoris Arx build by Contraption with a character at the center in a huge grave named the Somniator.  He was a large winged skeleton half visible out of his grave and a giant thurible waved back and forth over his grave, high above on a flying buttress. When I went on the sim tour with the Literary group, the tour guide barked at me that I was walking on the Somniator's grave and had to get out of the way. I immediately said that it was Grandpa, and Mom used to let us picnic on the grave all the time, what's with this. See, I can write stories, too. I wrote an elaborate one and sent it in but it was ignored, I think it was past the deadline. I noticed that the Contraption staff would array themselves just above the grave silently, clutching the rosary beads with the wedding rings, which you could change to different colours, also silently, never chatting, and likely AFK -- it was a tableau again.

I'm not good with tableaus, I like interactive plots, so I made a Somniator myself out of just models from the MP of skeletons and what-not. I bigged it up and put some "rez object on touch correctly" script in it and on the last day of the Faire, I put the grave out and I had the Somniator rise up and dance around under the arch. A few last-minute Contraption shoppers stood by and cheered and snapped some pictures. Nobody really paid attention. I did this act a few times, and also tried to ride the thurible -- the way my brother and I did when we used to picnic on Grandpa's grave -- but you couldn't right-click and sit on it. Drat. The Worthies -- the top builders -- play tricks on each other on the last day and put out giant flamingos -- there was even the long-running gag that Silas Merlin did with his chickens, and I found nearly every one. But they pay attention to each other, not to anyone else. That's fine, I might have actually been slapped with a DMCA takedown for stealing an idea, come to think of it, but I didn't sell this rigged-up Somni, I just added to the story. Now I can't find him in inventory. Oh, well. Look for the pictures on my Flickr.

BASSETT TOWN

On the last day of FF this year, many people gathered at Bassett to see it one last time -- it was truly a magnificent build, with so many subtle details despite the seemingly drab decor in this fly-blown dust-devil Western town. The cemetery in the town square in front of the main building, which is not where cemeteries usually are (they are in churchyards, usually off to the side) with the name "Walton Wainright' on all of the tombstones; the main building that looked like a saloon but was actually a church and doubled as the main store for Contraption -- well, it was all beautifully done. Of course like everyone else I spent hours there not only on the Quest, which I'm bad at, but just in general, admiring the builds. I went on the LitFest tour there, too, which was kind of a straggling affair -- it's hard to do Story when you have so many people of different levels, languages, and computer connection speeds, but still, they did, and it was grand.

So in this square by a broken-down wagon and barrels were arranged Walton Wainright's character for this event, Ezekiel Ricketts, a somewhat sad and beaten fellow, his hand in a bloody bandage  -- I would call him a "whiskey priest" in another era, the era of Diary of a Country Priest.   He was gazing into the distance, with his partner and aide-de-camp, Victor E. Eton (Irving Merritt) standing at attention nearby.  Ezekiel was playing a mournful tune on his banjo, the one you could get in the store for the gramophone. But he had his own Long Version and I swear he never repeated a note. I sat there for 45 minutes, and I swear Walton never repeated a note! That may have been an illusion, but then, that's how well the song was written (and I believe it's another person who authors the songs, I'll have to look).

So it was a very effective scene, the mournful tune never repeating a note, and Victor whose character had a poncho thrown over his bony shoulders and a skeleton for a head (and no doubt he has "walked forty-seven miles of barbed wire/got a cobra snake for a necktie" (PS IM me if you want the skel who dances to that tune which I made). I asked Victor about the meaning of a symbol on his clothing, and he explained it was a thing, related to another thing, that was a thing they were doing. OK, I need to read up on it. PS I have that statue of the guy with the owl head and I'm putting it in my quest. It's the sort of statue in a niche you might think is St. Michael the Archangel and then WHOOPS you realize Mike has an owl hand and OMG. Are these people in Bohemian Grove? Because Bohemian Grove has an owl insignia.

So...Neither of them spoke -- it was that same kind of AFK sort of tableau from the 10th anniversary and other events I've seen. Once or twice Victor popped in to say something -- he does that more than Walton. Maybe this is how two busy people make themselves available to adoring fans who can never have enough of them. It's not mine to criticize. I sort of do this myself at my little level when I stand at the Main Office of Ravenglass Rentals, slumped in an AFK, doing my work in the other window and people IM me to get a house removed.

I remained there at worship in Bassett with the rest of the townfolk, I got the freebies and the buybies and even the dueling pistol. I hate guns. I totally oppose guns in RL and SL. I'm for banishing them totally. Certainly AR-15 rifles to start. Come to my Memorial in honour of the mass shooting victims in the US in Cayuga. So I never buy them in SL. Since my purchase of the Axe of the Leviathan which I obtained as a wee newbie, I never have purchased a weapon other than a static sword to put on the wall or as a fountain. It had a lot of cool animations which I couldn't master. I realized one day when I went to an art gallery in that Bassett get up which was really cool, that while debating US gun policy with an acquaintance there, I must have looked rather hypocritical with that gun, and put it away. My RL and SL are not separate. They are seamless. I'm not anonymous.

FRACTURED FAIRY-TALE

I assure you I did not wake up in the morning and think "I must get in Walton's face today". I rarely see or interact with him as much as I appreciate him. He's not on Twitter that much. He announced he was on leave, so I didn't expect to see a road-rage tweet from him.

So this saga that ensues is not deliberate, and his posse, many of whom came late to the story and suffered from the usual Fractured Fairy-Tale of partial Twitter understanding, and who showered a hail of abuse on me, even threatening to make a "hit" on me, and ranted and raged that I was "trans-phobic," because in another thread, because while advocating for trans rights and tolerance of all forms of transgender and non-binary people, I didn't want the phrase "pregnant people" to be forced on women, merely because a tiny percentage of trans men give birth. That's all.

But with this gang in the vicious, totalitarian world of the RP extremists in SL -- over which Walton presides, like a benign tsar, unaware of what the Oprichina is up to -- you can't win. When Walton fetches up from his RL bed now haughty and self-righteous, how can you get him to read all the crazy? To listen to what the point is? To grasp that if I mention my age and experience, it's the ONLY way to try to bring equality into a discussion where your interlocutor reigns supreme? And whose reign is recognized, by me.

So what is this contretemps on Twitter really about? Read the thread and side convos if you have the patience:

CREATOR TIP:
Do NOT use anti-rez scripts in your products. It is useless and will not protect your products from anything. It just wastes extra memory for no reason.

>> The only time it's appropriate is for HUDs or something being used in a functional game.

— Walton Wainwright (@SLContraption) July 6, 2022

My first thought was that Walton got on Twitter to berate his own people in his own events he runs (The Warehouse, currently in session, and Engine Room coming in September, both excellent, premiere events).  Contraption apparently doesn't have its own Discord, although Second Life Syndicate, the events company, does, although it is probably not targeted enough, I don't know. (The topic of events companies is shrouded in mystery and worth another post).

So as I said, Walton had put a notice on his Twitter account the other day that he is on leave after some months of intensive building and creative activity at Fantasy Faire, SciFi-Con, Warehouse, SLB19 and probably other things -- all the top spring season events of SL. He's already posted to us that he is going on break to work on a very big project with new elements to his story/content creation and sales biz, which some people will follow avidly, and I will probably look in on once. So why does he come out of his vacation to get on Twitter, with his 1,353, follower, with what he calls "a PSA"?!

I take a WAG and figure it's because Warehouse is under way now, Engine Room, an even bigger deal, is coming up in September, which means creators are already making their wares for that event and staging them. And he doesn't want people with even laggier scripts than he has in his own wares -- and they have in theirs -- to slow down his shopping sims and reduce enjoyment -- and sales -- in the end. I think that's all there is to it. So he's trying to browbeat the largely female and trans women cohort of clothesmakers in SL, in his events, whom he must believe obviously to be stupid and unaware of the properties of anti-rez scripts and Copybot, into removing them. Could his hand-selected creators for his highly elite events be stupid about anti-rez scripts? Possibly.

It's that condescending male geeksplain bullshit that really got to me, but I also realized Walton inhabits a world far from the issues other more lowly creators face -- and as a far more established, high-profiled, and wealthy (in SL terms) business he has the capacity to file DMCAs, while not everyone else does.

Because I don't think he should pontificate about anti-rez scripts without also acknowledging that there have to be other remedies for Copybot then besides driving people to DMCAs.

No one says a word back to him *publicly*. As they didn't much with his last PSA in May before another episode of Warehouse and SciFi con, where he berated people for their cramped understanding of Steampunk as a genre and urged them to be more creative. This was puzzling to me given that I saw things like a Steampunk aquarium (!) at Warehouse at that moment, and I wrote that I wasn't sure if he was referring to the forums debate about SLB19 with this comment.

NATURALLY he knew nothing about the forums debate because he, like the hundreds of other very top creators of SL, aren't ON the forums. I mean, why would they waste time on those toxic cesspools? Why would they harm their image or their brand wrangling with the likes of not even Prokofy, but Coffee Pancake? So I sent him a painting that was going to be the basis for my own exhibition at SLB19, and he was delighted at an example of other colours besides brown, black, and gold.

I don't know what internal convos he had either in his groups or his discords or what, but THAT burr in his saddle wasn't entirely clear, and judging from the output at SL19 as I've written "Just Put a Gear on It!"), few people heeded  Walton, the God of Gear in SL. Oh, well.

ROAD RAGE

Then I began to wonder, given the spleen he showed over anti-rez scripts, which we can all agree are annoying, whether he just didn't have his own personal road-rage over what he saw as a bloaty outfit. I posted the script times of the anti-rez script I bought off the MP and told him examine (it's open source) and measured the script times of Contraptions own attachments, of which I have purchased plenty (or picked up at their various anniversaries and events). A couple of those goggles and backpacks and whatnot -- you have the same script time as if you had only your regular outfit and a worn box with an anti-rez script. So why not, I noted pointedly, take off some Contraption stuff, if the RP sim has a get-up you have to buy and rules you have to follow? He was torqued about having to change his character -- understood.

And as I suspected, in fact, that's what it was about, as he said in a sub-tweet a day later. And he nattered on that he can take everything out of or off his own products obviously but not from something not on mod. I presume he campaigns as hard on the no-mod issue? I do, by not buying those products or if I must, buying them and taking a star off their MP review.

So all of this was about Walton having to change his clothes on an RP sim. If they were his own clothes, he could mod them or take out scripts. But they are no-mod/no transfer clothes with anti-rez scripts in them he views as pernicious. (I bet he never gets this upset about the infestation of HUDs in general as content delivery systems and unpacker scripts which are the bane of SL -- he was happy to cede a fat exemption to any HUD for any purpose like a game. Oh, well).

SIMPLIFIED PACKAGING

I was so, so, so impressed with luc recently. He dropped ALL of the TOTAL NONSENSE in packing we have been subjected to in the last eight years or more. He put his food giver in a plain prim box, and called it a day. You drag the contents into inventory. Walla, you're done, no HUD in your face, no unpacker script firing and deleting the box while you accidentally don't receive the contents, etc. This entire nonsense of unpacking and HUDs was created by this misplaced fear that newbies or slow learners couldn't learn to drag things out of a prim into inventory -- without getting the box on their head.

So the result today is that all of us have to have creepy iron-legged little robots who chant bloody war ditties and clutch on our backs like limpets, to get a Contraption item. Well, they're kind of cute, it's ok.

NEVER CHALLENGE YOUR BETTERS

I totally realize that when these things blow by on Twitter, you should not challenge your betters. Truly I do. Because not only that superior creator but the legions of anonymous goons who fan him will start hectoring you with their perceived or actual knowledge of technical issues. This is what makes people intimidated in SL from ever objecting to anything these superiors say -- but I don't suffer from that problem.

WALTON IS KING

So first, first, the genuflections to all four compass points. I am the first to write that Walton Wainright is THE top creator of SL and I mean that even after this wrangle with him. Why?

o He has the most superior, high quality content in a niche but popular enough genre that not only reaches multiple RP genres like steam or sci-fi or goth that has some crossover to mainstream; not everyone wants a bloody metal mask blocking their face but many people want an old fashioned gramophone that plays mournful tunes;

o He has high attention to details like LOD collapse and lag and the look and feel and use of builds;

o He has high patience and ability to develop story, compelling narratives, arch and witty but sometimes sinister, which people like;

o He writes or commissions very talented and haunting musical pieces;

o He is friendly and himself sometimes comes out to a house call. Example: when I couldn't get My Bird Husband (an item made available at a tribute to Zerkalo's founder Daniel who died in RL) to big up the way I feel he should be for my scene, even if Walton did not grasp why his little bird needed to be big (so as to be like those Half-Deer Birbs I and the Deeries bigged up in Iris), he cheerfully bigged it up and sent it back to me; I also went many rounds trying to trouble shoot his experience-driven mirror. (PS I have probably burned more hours on Experience than anyone in SL except of course Fantasy Faire quest makers. You simply have to have small parcels with a dedicated landing point on them for it to work properly; otherwise non-group members won't land on the destination point. There are other problems with Experience I could discuss another day).

o He seems to be a smart and engaging person with a husband in RL who is also his SL creation partner; I think the consumer public always like to see something stable but romantic at the heart of a merchant story.  I mean, they're like Dave, the Wendy's Guy. Well, sort of. (PS the first time I saw Walton silently building at FF years ago with Victor Eton silent by his side, I thought mistakenly that Victor was his mule alt where he kept his building supplies because his own heavy inventory main account couldn't load content any more during projects -- that's what I'd be doing in a scene like that. But then I came to realize Victor is a real, separate person AND his RL partner. If this is a myth -- and we have no way of verifying it -- shoot me, but from all indications it's true).

So it's precisely because Walton is all those wonderful things that I bother resisting. Maybe these people can change. Maybe they can stop being arrogant assholes -- especially the ones who aren't really fully of that nature. Maybe they can grasp the larger issues of our fragile world, headed toward destruction.

CONDESCENSION

Walton doesn't hear or see the terrible condescension in these tweets, when he keeps telling me, in SL nearly 18 years and a creator and business owner, too, even if a far more amateur and tiny one, that I need to learn the facts of life about copybotting, and he's happy to help me. The more I try to explain to him that I truly do know these facts of virtual life and knew them before he was born, the more he accuses me of elitism. To be sure, he apologized later, which was big of him. But he really doesn't want to take the time to hear what the history MEANS.

He doesn't know that I know because I don't count in his world and never had. If I were a top designer in his events and in his friends' circle, he wouldn't dream of lecturing me about Copybot. He accepts that his peers know about Copybot. He doesn't accept his customers, especially from the low, mass culture class, know anything at all. They only deserve to be lectured.

So all of it just sounds arrogant, as I was helping my hired builders do DMCA take-downs for years before he came to SL. I recall when entire picnic tables, desert buildings, etc. were copybotted as both a griefing of me as a critic of SL, and merely as the garden variety copying that goes on in SL. In Ansheland, a copybotter casually copied all my builder's desert buildings in a scene and put them down on their own land next door (!). Anshe shrugged; it took some doing to get the Lindens to focus. We had RL names and addresses we were willing to put down; not everyone does.

If Walton is, say, 35 in RL now, the Copybot scandal happened when he was 17 and not in SL yet. He then has the temerity to tell me not to pull rank with experience -- as if any little lowly land dealer and amateur dabbler could be pulling rank on THE top creator of SL. You see what is so often the case with these geek designers -- they are actually strangely insecure, unaware of their own power and influence, unaware of the world, they lack any empathy, and can't even understand their own greatness and its responsibility.

CLASS WARFARE

He says "we're all in this together".

I wish we were.

We are not.

It is class warfare.

And I am happy to fight that class war, you will find. I don't want to live in a world where only a sanctified Guild of top creators dictate policy of technical or social kind without finding of facts especially, where we can't exist except as rubes and consumers. I don't want to live in a RenFaire. I don't want Fantasy Faire to be all day, every day, forever. I want it only to be two weeks out of the year. I want true diversity and pluralism and freedom and tolerance, and that means people who use mesh models -- are they allowed at Engine Room lol?

I don't know why all those "little dressmakers," as the people sneering at us back in the original Copybot days were called, aren't responding either to justify their use of the script or to say they take his point but don't like his attitude. But it turns out at the end he had "92 DMs" where his posse was all golf-clapping and agreeing -- and the fact that the RP sim owner with those clothes and their makers were not contacted privately, but he "took it to Twitter" is something that he and his posse will have to sort out.

I can totally grasp that my effort to defend these people I don't even know and probably wouldn't care for (I don't do RP sims) doesn't endear me to them and that's fine. 

When I linked to those stories that happened BEFORE HE WAS BORN, it was to help him try to understand the SOCIAL CONTEXT of Copybot. He, like all geeks, and increasingly all males and even all people, as binary thinking and literalist thinking induced by computers takes over the human mind, said that literally THAT Copybot of yore was copying prims and textures by another mechanism but the Copybot of today, the hipster era of the coolest kids, uses another mechanism to suck up the data sent to the server about the mesh features. All those vertices and whatnot. I don't have to know the science and math of this procedure to know THAT it works in that fashion like other things in SL -- it's like how you learn to drive a car without knowing the science of internal combustion. The ability of norms to grasp computer functioning and processes far exceeds the willingness of geeks and designers to admit our increasing abilities. Such is our world.

The SOCIAL side of Copybot -- the panic, the fear of loss of LIVELIHOOD of Black designers in Detroit and retired postal men in Columbus, Ohio -- it was awful, awful. SL was a dream, a commerce based world where you could finally sell and not just be stripped of your personal data for others to sell. This still evades Walton, even though he did, to his credit do two things -- you can see he is not theoretical at all but experience- and fact-based:

FACT-CHECKING

o First, hoping to play "gotcha" as geeks always are with norms, when I said the Mole backpack from SLB19 had the anti-rez script in it (it sure seemed to me like it did), he went and got a backpack and proved it had no such script in it. And that's fine, I don't have a problem admitting I was wrong when I was obviously wrong!

I'll bet big money that he did that not by torturously going through the Swaginator Hunt like I had to, but just IMing a Mole friend who was probably cheering him on in this Twit-fight in the background.

Why did I think the backpack did? Because when I rezzed it out to put it in a scene in a Linden home, where the floors DO NOT suffer from mesh bounce as so many SL houses do, like his own Pollux  -- they have addressed this issue -- it poofed but seemed visible for a second. Normally there are three ways for things to disappear like that in SL: a) you don't have the right group tag on your head -- you see the item for a minute, it disappears; b) anti-rez, where it appears for a second and disappears; c) mesh bounce, where you never see it at all and it disappears. You have to re-log to see it again.

Since the Moles started using -- to my enormous chagrin -- the Casper vendors, I was afraid using resident anti-rez scripts -- they do come from the user base, after all -- might be a sin now, too. So I was wrong.

o Walton went out and bought for $119 the Shuggles anti-rez script which I recommended merely because it's open source and he can see the 

SIDETRACK ON MESH BOUNCE

I'll bet you Walton has never really thought about mesh bounce and its issues because he rarely makes buildings. 

But let's take the gorgeous Pollux office which I love but which doesn't rent because it suffers badly from mesh bounce. I constantly try to educate my tenants that so many mesh houses suffer from this issue, because they were not made or uploaded properly with this problem in mind.

My sense is that someone like Walton doesn't live in SL. He doesn't have a house. He doesn't invite his pals over for drinks and snacks. He hasn't tried to decorate his living room and seen all his no-copy gatchs return due to mesh bounce. Again, if I'm wrong, shoot me, but I never heard of this particular Great and Powerful Oz having a house. SL is a hobby, a blank canvas, a chat room with peers. It's not a place to live. Or for that matter work. His work is outside in his RL home on the Internet or with various tools like Blender. That's fine. But then I'm going to firmly call out that he doesn't know what it's like to LIVE HERE.

I DO. (And yes, I "have a life" -- look me up in the book.)

Sure, he comes in and visits some RP sim. This is part of working his fan base and it's all good. But if he had a permanent home in SL especially once he made himself, he would have long ago grasped the mesh bounce problem and fixed it. 

Mesh bounce is when you try to put a mesh object out on mesh, and it just won't rez and gives you a ridiculous message  "The owner of this land does not allow it" (which I've desperately tried to get the Lindens to change to no avail) which angers my tenants because they feel like I personally am telling people who paid me money they can't do something).

There are several threads on the forums about this, and no, this page is all wrong that this is merely a "bug". Lindens refuse to change the message -- I have debated this many times. They persist in thinking it's about the server thinking you are putting your item on another sim, across a sim seam, or on land not your own, but that is definitely not it. I can be in the middle of an entire sim I own and still have this problem because it's about how the mesh was uploaded, not your placement. 

Here's a screenshot. 

Please don't tell me my business when I have to help the customers of YOUR products in YOUR PRODUCTS or OTHER CREATORS. Scarlet Creative used to have horrendous bounce problems; I had long talks with her; she fixed it. PS there are long threads on the forums (that she herself participates in, as she does on the cash-out issue) about mesh bounce. But Walton mentally is making a backdrop, a scene to a story, a sim like FF which is a shopping and philanthropy sim, not a place you live in for long. Barnesworth Anubis had this problem more severely; he began to get rid of it. The Moles making the Linden Homes in Bellisseria licked this problem. Etc. People talk about detaching floors; making them phantom; doing this, doing that, there is One Weird Trick that solves it SOMETIMES but why? Upload your mesh right, guys.

Everyone who has to either rent out or wants to live in houses gets that you have to rez out a prim board to decorate because creators can't be arsed to fix mesh bounce. I make this digression to explain the background of how creators are perceived; the social context for even top-notch, decent human being creators making PSAs they think are a genuine public service, and why no one will bother to listen to them and resent them (oh, except maybe a few eager fangirlz).

WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER

Walton at one point appeals to commonality. He doesn't really understand this beef. He is probably privately wishing to just block me and be done with it, but who needs a blogging customer mad at you? He thinks if he says "we're all in this together" -- as if he was merely "trying to help for the public good," why, who could fault him?

Well, we're not all in this together.

We're not all in the top 200 designers of SL in Shop 'n Hop

We're not even in the 85 selected SLB19 exhibitors.

And this isn't sour grapes. We can't all be "the best" and the Lindens can't pick critical bloggers especially. That's fine. But, as on forums users asked plaintively years ago:

WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WITH NO TALENT?

There has to be a place for us in this society and we can't be just dumb shoppers expected to endlessly shop at your idiotic weekend sales that never end and your endlessly proliferating events.

Some of us are in the "other" category although we make the bulk of power SL users -- consumers and pro-sumers at the amateur level.

And there is a huge gulf between you and us.

If some creator doesn't like me speaking up for them and think's I'm full of shit, they're welcome to speak up themselves and correct me. But they don't.

And here's why.

They are dependent on the good will of Walton, Second Life Syndicate (what a name! sounds like a mafia), and the coterie of the ne plus ultra creator class who form opinion of what is cool and what is not, partly driven by actual technical exigencies, and partly driven by illusion and swinging dicks.

I don't feel we need to sit still for that and as is well known, I push back.

Now what is it I don't get about anti-rez scripts? Nothing. I've seen them execute many, many times! They don't seem especially necessary to me and I'm able to read their script time on a Xoph sensor as high -- but they don't seem as bad a problem as "no mod" -- also inflicted on the buying public not just for reasons of Copybot. I encounter the idiocy of "no mod" way more than I do any anti-rezzer script because "no mod" isn't just about a creator with a hysteria about Copybot which she thinks thinks she has warded off IP theft with a totemic seal.

But wait. In fact, except for the Copybot problem, which isn't as common an occurrence on a sim as imagined, no-mod is useful in preventing someone from opening up a prim, taking a script or texture or anim, and putting it into another prim. Best of all, if that item is on copy/transfer to serve as food or a temp-attach item, "no-mod" means you can't put it to sale. No-mod isn't just a fetish to ward off evil spirits; it's a function to prevent re-sale literally and to prevent use of the script and animation outside the original object. There is nothing wrong with that. LL put permissions in from the beginning. There has always been an extreme faction of copyleftists fighting it and making all kinds of special pleadings. They've ultimately all been ignored in favour of commerce based on permissions

The default of cynical asshole geeks in SL from time memorial is to tell creators they are morons, to ridicule and demean them, like Electronic Frontier Foundation did telling us that our TOS was shit and nothing could save our tiny economy built on dreams -- and Creative Commons founder Lawrence Lessig (who tried to impose Creative Commons in SL and failed miserably). They don't respect copyright and perms at all, as you can readily see from some of the comments by low-follow trolls who came into this discussion to tell you that no-transfer clothing is a "problem". Of course it isn't "a problem". Walton himself puts his clothing on "no-transfer". He doesn't make his living in SL, but he doesn't want to give his hobby creations away for free; they have to generate some income to cover costs at least of servers, etc.

IF WALTON REALLY UNDERSTOOD THE RAMIFICATIONS OF HIS STENTORIAN ADMONITION THAT ANTI-REZ SCRIPTS CAN'T SAVE YOU FROM ALL-POWERFUL COPYBOT, HE SHOULD PUT ALL HIS CREATIONS ON COPY AND TRANSFER BECAUSE REALLY, ONLY DMCA TAKEDOWN NOTICES PROTECT IP. THE END.

Yet, he doesn't, and participates in the social construct of permissions like all of us -- he just wants to optimize the script time, and he thinks shaming people about their anti-Copybot schemes will force this optimization. Well, good luck.

To him, anti-rezzing scripts, even with this follow-up acknowledgement of certain use cases for them, are an obstacle to his goal of optimal creations that are visually appealing but not laggy -- he's obsessive on these topics, likely more than is necessary given the poor computer graphics capacity that most people on SL have, such as not to even appreciate some LOD marvel or Advanced Lighting wonder. I turn all that stuff off, like a lot of people. Artists browbeat and hector us with big signs at the doors of their galleries -- we ignore them totally and enjoy the scenes anyway.

Walton is convinced that all that is necessary is to explain to ignorant women -- it's mainly women who make clothes -- that they are putting script hogs in their products out of uneducated fear, and they should stop, so his events won't be so laggy -- and in general, the experiences of his customers using his script-eating wares. His anticipation is that he will either get the back-up Greek chorus of his fellow geek dudes, or some fangirl gushing, and that will close the door on the subject on the way to the bright and beautiful future.

So this is where I put a big sneakered foot in the door and say, "No."

I say "No" because at my end of the telescope on SL, things look different and ARE different.

First, I immediately speak up on behalf of the benefits of protective scripts such as one I myself commissioned and a noted scripter devised FOR FULL PERM MODELS. I don't want him stepping on this sector out of cultural or even economic warfare and superior sneering (creators who use models are barred from most top creator events, where organizers demand only original created mesh). I don't want the catch all denunciation of "anti-rez" scripts to then capture the protection scripts such as I commissioned and others use which make rezzed objects outside their giver turn black and poof. Food givers have become much more popular, partly because I've campaigned for them, putting food to give in every beautiful creation that didn't contain it, explaining to creators they should do this themselves, and explaining how. The market began to demand this especially with the appearance of andika on the scene, who does such beautiful food delivery items, and luc of course, and it isn't about me at all.

There's no rocket science here with the FULL PERM PROTECTION (note we are NOT talking about NO TRANSFER CLOTHES); it works on the same or similar principles of other such protection scripts. We aren't so benighted as to imagine they work 100% against *Copybot* in particular; but this is like a COVID vaccine. It doesn't have to be perfect. It can work 87% or 62%. It can work not at all after awhile, and then you have to make a new kind. Etc. But it works well enough to MAKE THE WORLD.

My use case involves mainly givers of food or givers of various temp-used items like a book or a magic stick. You can accomplish this in SL by 1) having "rez wearable" whereupon the wearble jumps to the avatar but never comes in his inventory; 2) you can 'give everything but scripts" (there's something Walton should do a public service message on, the need to use GIVE EVERYTHING BUT SCRIPTS so that you don't clutter and confuse other users with excess other kinds of dispense scripts) and  then the person gets it in inventory and then uses "wear" or "add" OR 3) you can use another kind of "rez object on touch correctly" with "temp-attach" and have it work that way, for more refined animations, multiple animations in a series, etc. I bet Walton never has to think of any of these issues for the market in general. He makes his own mesh, he has teams of people doing scripting and optimization and marketing and he doesn't have to think about how he will survive in a field of rampant theft.

It's not just clothes that bounce with an anti-rez script; some teacups or magic spell books do the same thing.

So I first point out that they're used not just for clothes, which is all Walton cares about -- clothes and accessories are the creator items that cost the most and sell the most, we all get it; houses and furniture sell less than even breedables these days, especially with Linden Homes competing.

Walton curtly dismisses the other use case of food givers  with a tone that implies food consumption is low on his list of RP needs and versimilitude, although legions of people demand this and there are all kinds of sub-communities like players of XeoLife and DFS making food growing and consumption like real life.  I personally only recall one from him very recently -- the whiskey tray in Bassett (and my God, you do need a hearty shot of whiskey to get through that very dreary sim about a dying culture of the Wild West). In self-defense, he then says he does do givers, and trots out the whiskey. Sigh. 

Of course, his posse does not include the lowly plebes who eat from Prok's Trash Can Cuisine -- or for that matter luc's latest Stuffed Peppers (I'm the one that got luc to start making his products deliverable and sent him my Trash Cuisine as a model). We are a lesser breed. And we are, I get it, truly I do. Because we have to put our items on copy/transfer to make them deliverables, which means nobody needs to crank up a Firestorm performing Copybot (again, a  reason I refuse to use FS because they will not technically remove or verbally condemn this practice)

OH WOW PROK ARE YOU STOOOPID YOU DON'T GET YOU CAN COPY ANYTHING IN SL ENTIRELY IN SECONDS?

Yes, I describe this as the "analog hole" -- although that term is technically and literally not quite correct any more given the way the viewer functions now but as a generic philosophical term, it will do. This was the term computer specialists used 20 years ago when you all were watching Barney. I see it's not a term used any more, but what it means is, "if you can see it, you can copy it". To serve it to you, LL has to make a copy it puts in front of you; to see and use it, you thereby become able to copy it. This is why Raph Koster would say:

THE CLIENT IS IN THE HANDS OF THE ENEMY

The game devs always see the customer, by whom they profit, as they enemy because they burn through content and demand more; they mod and sell content in illegal ways; they steal IP and sell game currency on ebay, etc and don't behave like the docile customers of the movie and music industry did for decades.

This means some day, we may have only Meta with their high caste of devs and designers and the rest of us will be barred from creation in order to prevent IP theft.

Yes, we get it that now, no human eye is needed; now the Copybot can literally be a bot sent into a sim to have a function performed which involves slurping up the information sent to the server,

But here's the thing. Copybot has to have this virtual setting to function: someone must be waring that coveted frock coat and waist coat and monocle on a crowded event sim where they are either trying on or purchasing the item or participating in some group story around the product like an FF event sim -- and then snatch it within a blink of an eye through the wonders of science. Therefore, reasons Walton, copying happens without any rezzing; therefore no anti-rez scripts are needed.

COPYBOT IS NOT UBIQUITOUS ALTHOUGH YOU THEORIZE AS IF IT IS

But Copybot is not functioning on every sim at every minute, because the Lindens do have various ways of chasing these things. They won't close off anonymizer sites as we wish they were, imagining that freedom fighters in Iran or China are logging on with them (not!); they do scrape hash marks or whatever to track things; they can triangulate a bunch of different data points, each of which tells nothing, and put it together to spell WOODBURY -- we have watched these methods over the years and obviously they don't tell us about them. When Philip was able to kill 50 avatars from Something Awful/WHat in an afternoon (but miss some of the top miscreants who were careful not to get their hands dirty), there was enormous screeching and hollering but you know, LL has the server logs and we don't. Behaviours cluster; people who use CopyBot and sell hot ripped items also crash sims and run around with pornographic avatars in General.

ARE THE BOTS BACK IN THE BOX?

I have written repeatedly about all the other episodes around Copybot, which I witnessed myself -- indeed part of the strategy of the people griefing SL with this to "make a point" was to show it to me and get me blogging about it. The only problem was that the Herald, where I broke this story, was funded by the Electric Sheep, and the Herald's managing editor was on the Sheep's payroll. Since I was a lowly virtual journalist, but a RL journalist who understood how things work when it comes to site funders, I did what I was told and made the setrec, even knowing it to be false and misleading. Later when enough griefing of me personally was done to force me out of the Herald, I did more research. I met the person in RL who showed me the first bots. I met the Sheep staff person who deployed the code. They and others were in libsl. Libsl was busy in 2004-2005 reverse-engineering the viewer. This was disallowed under the TOS, but Cory Linden (Cory Ondrejka) encouraged it. He had a different view than Philip as we came to discover after Cory quit SL.  He wanted to liberate both the viewer and server code; Philip did not.

The Lindens backdated their tolerated TOS violation and havoc ensued as libsl didn't create but griefed, and set Copybot lose in the world. This is not a secret and not hard to find out today. Some people speculated darkly that Intel, where this individual worked soon after, in fact had sabotaged SL because they had their own virtual world in the making; there was a lot of cut-throat competition at the time with even Google making a short-lived virtual world called Lively. I'm always amazed when I stumble on Twitter users describing themselves as the thinkers at the dawn of the Metaverse, ignorant of their virtual grandfathers of 15-20 or more years ago -- they piss on SL as a cybersex dungeon with silly copyright and no interoperability and refuse to see all the very valid lessons and accomplishments of SL. Today, the Copybot coder (although he is a separate person from at least two other nefarious deployers inworld -- which is how he can keep plausible deniability) has his own robotics firm. This is life in the Metaverse.

There's enormous amount of double-talk about Copybot, and claims it was an innocent debugging project. It wasn't. I was there. I recorded what libsl did, the "perverse engineers," they used god-mode to stalk and harass me. I AR'd their obscenities and particle bombings and sim crashes; they tried to shut me up. This was a thuggish gang that constantly harassed me and tried to silence me writing on the Herald about their true nature. Emerald devs -- and yes Phoenix and Firestorm are indeed related to them -- came on my sim Belarus and kicked all the chickens offworld to kill them, this was sport. They made a giant effigy of my RL head and would hold parties with it and make films of it, which you used to be able to see on YouTube. 

Most of all they wanted to hide the fact that big business was using this, via their consultants in SL, Electric Sheep (which doesn't even exist any more), who all had nothing but a cynical attitude toward any IP protection except their own. The Lindens, when they created the Nebraska product, finally created a special closed store like the Soviets had with the Beriozka system where big RL companies could buy from a select set of merchants -- this was to ensure both that they wouldn't face copyright claims AND that they could violate it at will as work-for-hire. They copied these items with the trick of merely resetting a sim in time and reloading it.

Why does Copybot exist, Walton? Do you think it exists for script kiddies to make a buck off a ripped dress or car in a sandbox where commerce is not allowed but no one enforces this law? No. Grown-ups made Copybot to destroy copyright and liberate content so that like YouTube and the California Ideology, the Internet and then the Metaverse have free and available content to attract customers. That your IP is devalued in the process; that the newspaper, media, book, record, digital arts industries are all destroyed except for a few very highly resourced biggies like the New York Times -- who cares? 

YOU don't care BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN TO YOU. And if it does, you can get lawyers, do DMCA takedowns, do whatever, as you have a RL business and RL contacts and RL capacity. Many creators don't. (PS that's not me, if I need to call a copyright lawyer I know just whom to call and the media to call to get the issue covered as well).

PERMISSIONS IN SL ARE NOT A FEATURE; THEY ARE A BUG

The concept of enabling creative people to make a living through sale of their content is not a feature of these platforms; it's a bug -- a bug that we all temporarily exploit, but it can't last forever. We all would like that model for the Metaverse and not the scraping and sale of personal data and the incitement of social hatred and division for clicks. But let's not pretend that those who select the former are also altruistic. They're not.

Walton conceded that the other use case for anti-rez is for those customers who haven't figured out yet that they need to use "add" or "wear" and just instinctively rez out a dress. In the old days they had a box on their head because they  were more instinctive about "add" from games or other worlds. There are always new people or returnees learning the lessons of "wear" -- and I would add that people who have already used up their attachment points, and experience a bounce, then might rez it out to see if there is something they might "do" or "edit".

CREATIONS FROM 'INSPIRATION'

And now comes the final point about all this I have saved for last. I was hoping Walton would get it. He didn't. I was hoping some diva would say something. She didn't. Because it's obviously not something to discuss.

It's Hair Fair, and you can be sure somewhere in the Metaverse, some merchant is crying herself to sleep because she thinks someone has stolen her hair -- or they have in fact. The forums, groups, Discords have endlessly wrangles about stolen hair, shapes, etc.

Is this about Copybot and your browbeat about its irrationality?

No.

Because to steal hair or a shape or something like that, sure, you can use Copybot. You may be skilled or not in doing that and may or may not get caught. Not every designer who wants to be respectable wants to reach the top through Copybotting; people will talk.

So there's another thing she will do.

She will rez the body or dress out on the sim where she can view it in the round. Walk around it. Take her time. Cam into it. Study it up close. Take some screenshots. Turn it around. This process leads to a creation "inspired by" another. It may not be technically slavishly copied, but someone who makes a shape or hair after this intense scrutiny -- thwarted only by anti-rez scripts! -- can make something that may look entirely like the original source of "inspiration".

THAT is the use case. I have no idea how common it is; I think quite common judging from the drama over the years. Someone will no doubt be along and explain that while once that was the truth with prim and sculpty and flexi hair and shapes made inside the avatar outfit creator, now, with mesh, that is less common. I don't believe that to be the case.

Sure, you don't need to rez it out! Duh! You can stand on a posing disc and turn yourself around with the camera and see just fine. Yes, we all do that. Yes, I grasp you can do that. But if you want to see all up and down and inside and out of a mesh clothing item, you can't beat rezzing it out inworld.

BTW sometimes such scrutiny isn't about "inspiration" copying but just about asking for a feature that isn't available, or for demanding "mod" when it isn't there. And sometimes customers get their way.

In any event, if I'm wrong, it doesn't matter, I don't count. What I am not seeing here is the anti-rezzer script users stepping up and explaining that no, they aren't stupid about Copybot, but they use it for: [pick a reason]. They may never show up to speak their piece. If YOU were in a Second Syndicate event run by Walton (or at least in which Walton took a leading role on content creation parameters or rules), where YOU depended on him and that event for your income would YOU speak up? Of course not! Where you were lucky to have gotten into it as not everyone is accepted? Would YOU EVER speak up and contradict the Content Creator-in-Chief? Would you?

Walton thinks that because he has "92 DMs" with approval, that the case is closed. He claims that these creators who used these scripts drove away new users. Of course just about everything in SL drives away new users, especially arrogant content creators who can't be arsed to do CS and sic their rude CS people on you who inflict more damage.

I want to hear from creators who use these scripts, and trust me, I'm going to go through my inventory to find them.

I want to hear from the maker of Bosh scripts, and I will ask him.

I want to hear from Shuggles, whose script Walton conceded wasn't so bad but...

I want to hear if Walton, in the UK, where there is less of this nonsense, thinks that "pregnant people" and "people who menstruate" are terms we must accept for the sake of being inclusive of trans men.

I think trans women are women; I accept that they have transitioned in fact to what they always felt they were; this isn't hard for me to do at all. What I do then object to -- having celebrated trans women as women -- is the need now to subsume that term into a collectivized "pregnant people". That's the big struggle this week, causing people to be fired from their jobs and cancel their subscriptions to the NYC over an article saying we should not have the far left or the far right control women's bodies, and the "pregnant people" is as bad as Dobbs in that regard. I may disagree about Dobbs for other reasons, but I sure do think "pregnant people" has to go the way of MSM, "men having sex with men," the term hospitals and foundations use. It's ok to say LGBTQ+ ; it's ok to use whatever pronouns an individual requests.

COMMON COURTESY

And then the other, related point I have: it used to be part of SL's civic culture that you removed your attachments and heavy scripts -- pre-anticipated by Cheech and Chong's admonition to "let the air out of your shoes" when exiting the Bozo Bus to the Midway of the Future. To help you be a good citizen, LL had a nag screen that tells you your avatar "cost" and it keeps nagging at you and tries to incentivize you to change by warning you that you are not visible to everyone -- the system turns you gray if you are "too expensive". I, like a lot of people, are happy to be good citizens and take off scripted things like a backpack or an animesh shoulder pet to relieve the sim. But we also turn off that nag screen on the Debug screen because it's merely a nuisance.

And here's the thing. The Lindens used to browbeat on all this way more than they used to. Maybe their way of telling us to stop wearing hair when we went out on the town was to shove it up our ass when we teleported and landed. They put in the nag screen after all and make a cursory effort to tell people to remove their attachments all the time, even while recognizing this made them special.

But if you have been in events like SLB19 or Meet the Moles lately or even just Concierge on Wednesdays, you'll notice a different refrain from the Lindens: "We now have new, fast, fresh, powerful Event Servers. Buy them! You will never feel lag again!" So instead of telling people to recycle or walk or take the bus, tp make them buy cloth bags for a dollar, they now have new electric cars that don't pollute the environment. Well, not as much.

Of course, there's this dark side of Event Regions which has to do with "the child is father of the man" as I call it  -- or you know, that child objects rendering in the distance on the cam sim. The cam sim makes things worse, they tell us. But of course, that's to get people to buy an Events Region.

Walton, buy an Events region. You can likely afford it. All these issues will go away.

Until then, I want you to think really hard about what your solution is for Copybot in general -- and don't be Mr. Helpful and tell me you will assist me in filling out a DMCA notice. No sale.

Some day, when you work for MetaSteam 30 years from now and I will long be dead, you will remember the summer night long ago when we argued about Copybot, in a world where we both could still create what we want to and sell it and keep nearly all the proceeds when we cashed out.

 

The Famous "I don't get it, and they certainly don't" Forums Post In Which the Term 'FIC' Was Created

You never know if the Lindens might get the idea to delete the forums archive. So I have kept a copy of the famous post by Pahoa Jade, still my neighbour all these years in Carlisle, who "took it to the forums". It's easier to read at that link than here for some reason.

Second Life Forums Archive > Previous Forums Archive

I don.t get it, and they certainly don't
Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115	01-01-2005 05:09 You can tell by my number of postings that I dont post very often for being here over a year. And very rarely do I start a thread. I tend to be quiet about most things and usually let the real concerned parties battle it out. This happens to be my battle (started by someone else) and as my friends can tell you, I maybe the quiet one of the group but I never back down from my own battles. As a lot of you know we (Jazzy Jade Wolf Group) recently moved from Lusk. Part of what compelled us to move after over a year there, was the fact that builds around us virtually cut access to our land from two sides and a third side was the edge of the world. As these builds began to expand we waited patiently to see the outcome. You see, we do support the fact that it is your land you can do what you want with it. Well, when it got to the point that we felt closed in and knew we would be happier somewhere else, we evaluated what our mission was and what we wanted to accomplish business wise. In short we moved. During the time this was happening we didnt critisize the builds didnt call names or degrade the missions of others, we respected their freedom to play THEIR game as they saw fit. So we moved on. We had already built in Eagan to combine our Jade Wolf and Jade Passions stores. I feel it is a build to be proud of. We have received many compliments from our neighbors there. So now we come to Carlisle. We found a beautiful Island there. We were the second to buy in the sim after it was carved up for resell after the auction. Many of the sims around us were still for sale also. We (Shad, Crim and I) hung over the Island and talked in voice about how we should buy and what our vision would be. Do we Buy most of the island and risk someone buying the water around it and building on the waterway? Do we buy a potion of the island and as much water around on our end as we can to preserve the waterway? You see we had almost 23K in land allotment available to the group. There was one underlying vision... to build as unobtrusivly as possible and prevent the same thing happening here that we had happen in Lusk. We opted for preserving the water and as much as we could of the island. Well, we have been working very hard lately and wanted a break before we built. So, (as I state in my profile) Carlisle is our playground right now. We are great fans of Starax's creations. So naturally, we decided to take advantage of the 5000+ unused prims we had and enjoy the sculptures we had before we started building. We began putting out our favorites, right now I believe we have around 8 out. We also spent a day replacing almost 200 Linden trees one by one with exact replicas on our portion of the island to preserve the beauty. We have had people stop to admire and comment on the sculptures. If you dont know Starax's work, it ranges from serious to whimsical and sometimes quirky, but always awesome. I believe we have one of the biggest private displays of his work in SL right now. Ok, so, now that I've laid the background out, if you're still with me thank you. We come to my battle. Really the groups but I was the one approached so I am addressing it now. Yesterday I received an IM from a neighbor in the next sim to ask if we would sell our land in the water adjoining theirs. This is a location we have put some sculpture, we made sure it was located so that it would not hinder water traffic. I inquired as to why they wanted the land. I was told it was to preserve the view and someone they had just sold land to was unhappy with what we had placed there and had requested their money back. This party kept asking what our plans were and said they were concerned given the size of our business, they didnt want a big ugly store there but could live with dolphins. I explained that we didn't have concrete plans for our build but yes that spot was planned for a display of Starax sculptures. Well, this person was very insistant that I define our plans. I reiterated that I had told them early on that we were undecided. And I hadnt judged their builds or use of land as they shouldnt mine. I was told we were obviously some kind of animal lovers and it made them wonder what our plans were. WTH does that mean? I pointed out I may not agree with their builds and the person complaining was more obtrusive in their build that overhung the water than we were. I was told they had some of the best builders in SL do their builds and I shouldnt trash them I explained I wasnt trashing the builds but the layout and density. Well, needless to say I ended the convo saying I think this disscussion is done and if you leave us in peace, we will do the same for you. Cause it boils down to it is our land. OK my peeve here is... Why, are some people so narrow minded as to think their vision or what they choose to do with their land should take presidence over others? Why, after they buy land do they feel they have a right to demand what other earlier buyers around them plan to do with their land? Who are they to presume what I plan to do with my land is unacceptable? Or, worse yet, presume to know what my plans may be and judge it by that? When I see what I feel is an ugly or monstrasorous build I may comment on it to my friends, but I never presume to tell the builder or owner that I am qualified to judge them or demand the removal of said build. I recognize the fact that we all pay a fee for our land and are entitled to use it as we see fit. If it doesnt fit our vision we move on and make sure we cover the bases to ensure we get what we want. So in short, if you're concerned, get to know your potential neighbors, learn their vision before you buy. If your main concern is resell and you dont take the time, dont complain later and STFU. OK rant over. TY for listening. I feel much better now getting that off my chest. < back to the unobtrusive observer. P _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle.
Huns Valen Don't PM me here. Join date: 3 May 2003 Posts: 2,749	01-01-2005 06:51 Some people act stupidly sometimes and you can put them on ignore. I just did that to someone today on IRC and I am quite happy with the results.  _____________________ [ huns? || words || 1TBS KREW || VHI Aircraft || Whitepaper on Aircraft Physics ] Make yourself and your objects immune to llPushObject().
Rose Portocarrero Here to look cute Join date: 23 May 2004 Posts: 168	Happy to be your neighbor! 01-01-2005 07:26 Dear Pahoa; As your next door neighbor in Eagan, I'll be the first to say how pleased we were that the Silver Wolf store blended so well into the residential aspect of our neighborhood. You all took your time and thought it out well. I don't even notice a store next to us when at home, and I do spend a lot of time on that property. We were worried that we would see a large, to the prop line box with flashing particles and spinning things right and left. What we got was beautiful sculpture while you were building the store, and then a very well layed out, low lag tasteful build next to our cabin. In sum, we couldn't have asked for better neighbors next to our home, and I hope you all STAY there a long time to help protect OUR property as well as the other homes in our sim. Oh and yes, we DO in fact walk next door and shop.  Happy New Year! -Rose
Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372	01-01-2005 07:33 *hugs* Pahoa!! I have rarely heard you vent, so I know this must have really gotten to you. You have many fans and admirers (as does the rest of your business group) and I hope you won't let anyone make you upset for long. You are a great asset to the SL community! *HUGS again*!  _____________________ *hugs everyone*
Ashlynne Poole Huggles Queen Join date: 30 Oct 2004 Posts: 168	*hugs* 01-01-2005 08:07 I don't know you but in reading this i can feel your obvious pain. It is your land after all and build what you want. The fact that you and your group obviously care about the surrounding area says alot.....wish more people did. Keep your chin up! *hands you a cookie* Ash
Elle Pollack Takes internets seriously Join date: 12 Oct 2004 Posts: 796	01-01-2005 08:08 I probably know who you talked to and what neighboring land he owns. I have a stake in those plots myself which you can probably figure out by checking the owners of certian buildings in that area. Personaly, I like your build.  A giant gorilla and a group of giant...are those birds or flying horses? I forgot...may not be natural (the theme of the neighboring land), and some people might not like them there, but I think they're very well built and even rather attractive. (Course, I live on an island of artists and I'm used to a sculpture garden in my back and/or front yard). I've talked to the person about this before when he asked my opinion of it and I hope he realizes that other people will probably share my view...and I hope I'm right, because I'd really love to see his project succeed.
Vestalia Hadlee Second Life Resident Join date: 19 Oct 2004 Posts: 296	Agree Totally 01-01-2005 08:58 From: Rose Portocarrero Dear Pahoa; As your next door neighbor in Eagan, I'll be the first to say how pleased we were that the Silver Wolf store blended so well into the residential aspect of our neighborhood. You all took your time and thought it out well. I don't even notice a store next to us when at home, and I do spend a lot of time on that property. We were worried that we would see a large, to the prop line box with flashing particles and spinning things right and left. What we got was beautiful sculpture while you were building the store, and then a very well layed out, low lag tasteful build next to our cabin. In sum, we couldn't have asked for better neighbors next to our home, and I hope you all STAY there a long time to help protect OUR property as well as the other homes in our sim. Oh and yes, we DO in fact walk next door and shop.  Happy New Year! -Rose The first thing I see when I login to my land is Pahoa's Eagan store. That store *is* the view from my land. Bottom line always is, what you do with or on your land is your own business, and if a neighbor doesn't like it, such is life. That said, I lack sufficient imagination to believe anyone could have complaint with anything this group builds anywhere. Even when the Eagan store was under construction, their time consuming effort to aesthetically blend into the existing neighborhood was delightfully obvious to me and the people I know who live around me. They also happen to be a nice batch of people. They can build anything next to me anytime, and I'll be a happy woman.
Elle Pollack Takes internets seriously Join date: 12 Oct 2004 Posts: 796	Because there's disagreement under the surface 01-01-2005 12:03 (and because I'm trying to prevent a possible flame war that I believe will only hurt both sides, and can be resolved peacefully if both sides are willing to be reasonable) This is a snapshot of the view from my building in the neighboring sim (adjusted a bit to avoid a tree in the line of sight.) What do people think of it? Could you stand to look at it once? Could you stand or even enjoy living next to it? (The cars are a recent addition which the other landowner is claiming were placed to deliberatly annoy him. I do not know if this is true or not but I do think they're a bit much myself. The rest of the picture, I like)
Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698	King Kong 01-01-2005 13:21 From: someone Why, are some people so narrow minded as to think their vision or what they choose to do with their land should take presidence over others? Indeed hehehe. Note that it is Pahoa Jade who has decided to take this discussion public -- which I didn't -- so I'm happy to tell my side of the story. She's presented her side, but it contains exaggerations and fabrications. Let the community discuss it. I purchased the Ravenglass sim to make it a planned residential community with an effort to protect the views. It seems there is a crying lack of such areas in SL, with many people moaning and groaning that their views are constantly wrecked by ugly builds. Everyone seems paralyzed and powerless in the face of the bad choices of a few, and it seems like it's time to push back. So I've been pushing back in a variety of ways -- raising the issue of ugly builds on the forums, suggesting that the use of negrate might be in order here and there, and also putting my money where my mouth is by attempting a residential development myself. I'm new and I'm learning so I'm happy to hear any criticism about the development decisions. I'm quite aware that my controversial statements about big ugly builds already on the forum have pre-fueled Pahoa's ire, because she assumed the worst -- that I might organize some sort of public condemnation of her build or a collective negrate of her builds which in fact I had absolutely no intension of doing, have never done, and have merely raised as a possible public tool to solve chronic problems in SL. I first contacted Pahoa very politely to ask her if she'd be willing to sell part of the water around her substantially sized plot with an island and lots of water. Sometimes people are willing to sell patches like that if you don't build on them -- it's on another sim so it really does no good except to protect the view and water access. She then asked why I wished to buy. I said I was contacting her on behalf of an unhappy customer who was wondering if she should move and sell her land back to me because there were now builds in water that she thought mistakenly was Linden water. (I could note that most land owners wouldn't bother to take up an issue like that, much less buy back land from an unhappy customer.) The builds then consisted of a dolphin, a pegasus, and a hawk grabbing a fisherman. They're not my taste -- they're kitsch and many good architects would recognize them as such, but they aren't obtrusive and indeed, I'd favor freedom of creativity over some kind of heavy zoning restrictions. Knowing that King Kong lurked on the other side of the parcel, however, it was right to ask whether more large builds were coming. My customer didn't really care so much about the animals, but seeing that a business had taken over the parcel, she wanted to know if a big store was going up. Neighbours are such a wild card that it's a reasonable question to ask -- she wanted to know whether to move and sell before wasting time on a build. All of this was merely an inquiry for information purposes -- to help this customer decide what to do. It was no imposition on Pahoa Jade and Jazzy Jade -- merely an inquiry to help a decision-making process. Instead of just answering "yes, I plan a big store" or "no, it's just those animals," Pahoa accused me of merely wishing to chop up land and sell it at a high price, and of plopping houses down, crowded next to each other. She had absolutely no basis for this claim. And note that Pahoa has lost nothing. She has her freedom and her land and is building exactly what she wishes -- even adding some platforms with cars in the middle of the ocean LOL no doubt out of spite. Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer. She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property or she'd know that this is not some get-rich-quick scheme. It has a large commons that keeps at least 10,000 acres unsold and preserved, including a large part of the waterfront. Instead of selling off the island immediately and risk having a laggy club or store, I'm trying to keep it in the community, even buying waterway into the next sim to ensure its view. To make it affordable, sure, there are 1024 or 1536 plots so that people can stay within tier zones. No, not all of us can afford to live the lives of the rich and famous players who have been in the game for 2 years selling their high-tech creative wares. Yes, there has to be room for others in the game. Pahoa next honed in on the nature of my customer's build -- it "jutted out into the water" she said although of course when you sell waterfront land, you have to sell it with water. I'll leave the public to judge whether that customer made a good build or not -- obviously Pahoa doesn't want judgement of her own group's builds but is freely dispensing judgement of others LOL. There's a larger issue here not specific to Pahoa. I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. But the Lindens roll out brand-new sims every week. There's plenty of space. If someone inquires about a purchase or an intention merely to protect their own view, it should be understood as that, and not treated as some kind of intrusive crime. SL is extremely volatile and I often find that people are only too happy to sell their land and move on even when they've just bought. As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. I started Ravenglass as an experiment. If you buy a sim and put in beautiful houses and try to make it affordable, can you protect people's investments? I've bought up surrounding land to protect views, I've watched as all kinds of large hulks have gone up around us. This isn't just my problem, but a public problem and one for the Lindens. Can there be residential sims in which people's investments are protected? The jury is still out. One thing I know is that these issue need PLENTY of democratic, public discussion. Many views and interests need to be taken into account. An accusatory attitude and a haughty sense of eminent domain for the older, wealthier players are not the last word on this story. I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. They've done a fantastic job of making an interesting and exciting and alluring world. They've unleashed their creativity and put out all kinds of whimsical articles, animations, particles, scripts, and so on. They see SL as a kind of never-ending Neverland. You unleash your imagination -- and away you go. But that's not what the game is for everybody. But on the other side there's another kind of player base who basically just want a replica of RL. They want quaint homes with realistic vistas with beautiful sunsets. They want to go to their patch of virtual real estate with they cyber honies and be left alone. They don't want lag, lights, particles, malls, clubs -- and even the most creative whimsy -- except when they go visit another sim. There are going to be more and more of those kind of players as the game turns from a beta for 10,000 tekkies into a virtual world serving a million customers. Those millions are not creative tekkies. They are customers -- YOUR customers -- and you have to think of their needs and interests, too. I see the land barons caught between these two groups and hated by everyone, although all they have done is pursued business interests and practices that actually serve the mass taste represented by the second group of RL-realistic type of players. A possible solution is to zone new sims. They zones can be "residential" or "business" or "entertainment" or "experimental" -- and they have to be clustered because the next sim is always right next to your sim and in your view. When people buy next to an 'experimental' sim -- possibly those are the Linden-subsidized ones -- they know they might see flaming particles and King Kong. When they buy in a residential sim, they know their FPS will not be lagged by a club with strobe lights. Player-based zoning will probably prove unworkable precisely because one player involved in a zoning issue is likely to take personal insult and escalate to a flame war, instead of realizing this is a common problem we all share that can be discussed democratically and publicly with solutions found.
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 13:46 From: Prokofy Neva My customer didn't really care so much about the animals, but seeing that a business had taken over the parcel, she wanted to know if a big store was going up. Your customer has no business making such demands. From: Prokofy Neva As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. So what? It is evident you want make money regardless of your neighbors, and are quick to judge others while shielding yourself from criticism. _____________________
Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698	01-01-2005 13:52 From: someone Why, after they buy land do they feel they have a right to demand what other earlier buyers around them plan to do with their land? Excuse me, but in fact Ravenglass was purchased first because it was at auction first. Your purchase followed because it was simply auctioned later -- the public record easily establishes that. But it really doesn't matter. The customer who purchased one lot in Ravenglass had a simple question -- are you going to build big in the water? Because then she could decide to move or not. From: someone From: someone Who are they to presume what I plan to do with my land is unacceptable? Or, worse yet, presume to know what my plans may be and judge it by that? Er....I dunno...because you put a giant King Kong in the water? That would be my guess. Not really a presumption, just....a King Kong! From: someone When I see what I feel is an ugly or monstrasorous build I may comment on it to my friends, but I never presume to tell the builder or owner that I am qualified to judge them or demand the removal of said build. I recognize the fact that we all pay a fee for our land and are entitled to use it as we see fit. Well, that's where we disagree! I do think that large ugly builds in the public view are justifiably commented on by the public at large. And I didn't call your build monstrous or ugly or judge it, I asked merely whether we could expect a big store or a big King Kong right next to our water. There's a huge difference. You're making a King Kong out of...a few meters of water. From: someone So in short, if you're concerned, get to know your potential neighbors, learn their vision before you buy. If your main concern is resell and you dont take the time, dont complain later and STFU. Well, er, we did buy there first. In fact an alt of mine had a very friendly conversation on the first day of your build, asking about your boats, whether you built them. And I did inquire politely yesterday what your "vision" was seeing that you were a business, and a business with a King Kong in the water LOL. It's not complaining later, and no, I won't STFU, it's my world, too : )
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	Hugs All Around 01-01-2005 14:08 *hugs Prokofy* I think it's great you have raised these issues publicly, even though that wasn't your original intent but I guess your neighbor had to fume. The picture Elle has displayed looks like a lot of clutter -- too many styles jammed into too much water space, and a King Kong to boot. It's actually an example of how a picture looks worse than the real thing, however, because you can always adjust your draw distance. The hawk and the fisherman are especially gruesome to look at -- but let's be glad there's no sculpture of entrails on the rocks! What was once an unspoiled waterway vista where you could sit on your dock and look out to the Linden sea is now filled with kitsch -- I agree. But you should be grateful it's not a huge square laggy club with strobe lights -- it can get worse...it DOES get worse! There really doesn't seem to be any dispute here. Pahoa has called your development crowded and middle-class, and you've barked at her for being too whimsical in a public space. She's obviously an older, connected player who will get everyone on her side judging from all her *hugs*. Many reading this privately think they actually wouldn't buy land next to King Kong, but because it's Jazzy Jade's King Kong they'll go to the mat! *Hugs Prokofy again.* Meanwhile, buyers at Ravenglass know that they have a developer who will not abandon them to the fate of Fay Ray and King Kong, but will try to intercede on behalf of their view concerns. *Hugs Hugs Hugs Prokofy especially because he is my alt!*
Sparkle Skye Second Life Resident Join date: 27 Oct 2004 Posts: 1,016	01-01-2005 14:14 I disagree I think a customer has every right to inquire what is planned so they can make an informed decision. To say a customer has no rights is a rather cavlier attitude, as ultimatley it is the customer that keeps this world going. Without customer the shops would close land would not be bought as there would be no profits. I t does not mean however that the seller is obligated to refund monies unless that was part of the agreement.
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 14:26 Sure, its ok, if a neighbor has a plan. If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them. Things change. _____________________
Rickard Roentgen Renaissance Punk Join date: 4 Apr 2004 Posts: 1,869	01-01-2005 14:48 lol you all like to write way too much. but it was worthwhile writing I'll give ya that. I know starax' work and Pahoa's and Shadows. I'm picky, hard to please and generally cranky when it comes building. It must be perfect! I like all the afformentioned people's builds. oh sometimes they're not perfect , but always aesthetically pleasing. Ignore the dumbass. hehe, I do feel his pain though. he'd really like to have nothing but trees out his window but he doesn't have enough money to buy the land to enforce that. That's where he's coming from, but he's still a chuckle head. _____________________
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	01-01-2005 15:05 Re: he'd really like to have nothing but trees out his window but he doesn't have enough money to buy the land to enforce that. That's where he's coming from, but he's still a chuckle head. Hehehe ROFL Buying a whole sim and a lot of the parcels in neighbouring sims means he doesn't have enough money ROLMAO.
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	01-01-2005 15:08 Re: "If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them." Er...Weedy? What part of "impose vision" did you see in this story? I don't see Prokofy imposing any vision, he's instead asking what the neighbor's plans were, full stop. If she is so nervous and skittish that such a merely informative question asked on behalf of a customer sends her into paroxysms of indignation, well, excuse us all for living.... Ummmm....would building a King Kong in the sea perhaps fall into the category of "impose vision"? I dunno....
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 15:22 From: Dyerbrook Parvenu Re: "If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them." Er...Weedy? What part of "impose vision" did you see in this story? I don't see Prokofy imposing any vision, he's instead asking what the neighbor's plans were, full stop. If she is so nervous and skittish that such a merely informative question asked on behalf of a customer sends her into paroxysms of indignation, well, excuse us all for living.... Ummmm....would building a King Kong in the sea perhaps fall into the category of "impose vision"? I dunno.... Ummm From: Profoky Neva even adding some platforms with cars in the middle of the ocean LOL no doubt out of spite. Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer. She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property Sounds like an imposition to me. _____________________
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	01-01-2005 15:30 Re: "Sounds like an imposition to me." Ummm...how do you figure it was an imposition? A developer is asked to buy back property and makes an inquiry -- that's an imposition? But King Kong....that's not an imposition? And we didn't even raise King Kong at all originally. Have you all been in this game too long?
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 15:33 OMG a GORILLA! I demand my money back! What next? OMFG, a STORE!!!!! The sky is falling. C. Little _____________________
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	01-01-2005 15:42 re: "I demand my money back! What next? OMFG, a STORE!!!!!" Yeah, that's what that customer did, she wanted her money back. She had bought for the view : ) Some people do that, and they value their tier. They'd like to spend $5 or $8 more on top of the subscription, and not buy a black cat in a sack. People are funny that way. But then, they don't own stores all over SL so I guess they have a different attitude than the fuck-you eminent domain-my-freedom-uber-alles that many older players have : ).
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 15:51 From: Dyerbrook Parvenu But then, they don't own stores all over SL so I guess they have a different attitude than the fuck-you eminent domain-my-freedom-uber-alles that many older players have : ). Idiotic statement. My case in point. From: Pahoa Jade Well, this person was very insistant that I define our plans. I reiterated that I had told them early on that we were undecided. And I hadnt judged their builds or use of land as they shouldnt mine. I was told we were obviously some kind of animal lovers and it made them wonder what our plans were. WTH does that mean? She gave her answer. Clear and simple. You didnt get your way, so you get all pissy and make harsh irrational statements. I understand 100% why she posted here. _____________________
Tcoz Bach Tyrell Victim Join date: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 973	01-01-2005 15:52 For what it's worth, in a land dispute, ownership is king unless you are violating the ToS. Any request you entertain from a neighbor is a courtesy. Two people moved into Natoma/Clara, and didn't like my land. They gave me grief about it. Wanted to know my plans. Etc. I told them I'm sorry but I'm not interested in whatever it is you want me to be interested in (some "planned community" or something like that). They seemed to believe they had some right to impose their will on mine, and griefed me heavily with pictures of jackasses and the like. The Lindens seemed to side with them insofar as sending an "official" Linden rep to try and mediate the whole thing by way of getting me to make concessions. In the end I simply said that if I'm not violating the ToS, leave me alone. And that is exactly what happened. You want to lay down the law, buy a sim. Otherwise anything goes, within the confines of the ToS. You may not like "that attitude", or whatever, but that's just hard cheese in the semi-working world that is SL. Anything else is a waste of breath. _____________________ ** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698	01-01-2005 16:15 From: someone They seemed to believe they had some right to impose their will on mine Funny how a neighbour's simple inquiry about plans, or suggestion to join in something perhaps more low-impact gets transmogrified into "an imposition of will" by the me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL. Sounds more like YOU are the one imposing your will merely because you bought land, with not a thought in your head about being a good neighbour. The Lindens were right to try to mediate -- but they can't spend their lives doing that. Yes, the fuck-all attitude is really at a heart of a lot of these disputes. Efforts an initial polite inquiries, efforts to gather information, efforts to suggest alternatives are all greated as "impositions of will" by these hedonistic fuck-you liberals in SL. This is not a game that is going to have a million customers. From: someone You want to lay down the law, buy a sim Um, I did buy a sim, duh. In fact, I bought MORE than a sim, more like a sim and a HALF for the sake of protecting customers' views. It's never enough, especially given the prevailing attitude you so well represent.
Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698	01-01-2005 16:22 From: someone She gave her answer. Clear and simple. You didnt get your way, so you get all pissy and make harsh irrational statements. I understand 100% why she posted here. Guess you're continuing to read her one-sided and distorted story here. Anyone could check the conversation logs I guess. Far from ME making harsh irrational judgements. SHE was the one who jumped to a conclusion that I was some cut-throat land baron pillaging land, plopping down houses, and trying to make a huge killling off a development. Nothing could be further from the truth, if she just read more about the project and saw that it has a completely different ethical basis. She then began a slam on our community, a slam on the houses, and a slam on this individual customer who innocently started this whole episode merely by inquiring if there was any way to clear the view, purchase the water, or see if worse was to come down the road. She kept the conversation going and going. There was no "getting my way" that I was seeking and nothing I wanted from her. I inquired about water for sale. It wasn't. I then asked about plans -- was King Kong on the horizon? And she got huffy and started a tirade. She began a critique of everything adjacent to her water although we didn't begin with any critique of her stuff -- which, as I've noted, are deemed "tacky" by those with a greater sense of aesthetics. We wanted information about plans to settle a business problem -- move or buy back land. She escalated it into a flame on the spot, and took it to forums. So we're pushing back. We're not afraid : )

I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-01-2005 16:44 I started this response a couple of hours ago when there were 14 postings only and ran into computer problemss so I saved and now pasted it.... *HUGS* Pen, Ashlynne, Rose & Vestalia. Thank you for your kind words and confidence in what the outcome of our build will be. ( You Get it! :) ) The purpose of my posting was not to flame. if it had been then I would have used names but I purposfully left them out. Prokofy, If you read my original posting again, you will see as I told you the day we talked that we are not finished with our plans for building and as I told you, yes, that area would be used to build a display for our Sculptures. Obviously as we start to build we will not be able to afford the prims we allow for so many to be out in the future. We plan to build some kind of displaystand/platform rising to the water surface (sorry no design drawings yet) and rotate our display. Please note that of the pictures posted, the island you see is only partially ours. We have an L shaped peice of land that has no buildings on it other than the reflection places at the shore line and a gazebo on the hill. Pretty much the wooded area is all ours and wraps partially around the other side. The compliments on Eagan mean a lot. When we began building there we took into consideration Rose and Vestalia's beautiful builds. I'm glad we accomplished one of our main goals. Which, as I told Vestalia when she visited near the end of our building, "We wanted to create something that our neighbors would not look over at and say "OMG look what they plopped down next door! " But rather wow what a nice build" I'd like to note that tho we've talked to Rose and Vestalia a few times we are not "connected" to them. We met when we moved in. We did the same in Eagan before we built, displayed sculptures in the interim. It looks like it all turned out ok there. I logged into SL before I came here to read the forums and was greeted by IM's regarding this post. Kind words from people I havn't met or know in passing. One really sums it up and tells me they can feel what we want to accomplish in Carlisle. This is from someone who I read often in the forums and is familiar to a great many of others I'm sure. We have never met in world. The visit was prompted by this thread. "I came to visit your place in Carisle *sigh* it looks so tranquil and pretty here. I'm sitting by the campfire right now as I type this to you." Thank you for taking the time to visit and get a first person view *HUGS* To sum it up we are not connected to anyone. Yes, we are old players, we do have many friends (kinda comes with being old players) BUT, we have earned every friendship we have here by being honest, hardworking, concerned people. We have helped many others along the way, not for the fame (we dont have any fame that I know of) but because when we started we had the help of many others. This may be part of the reason we are not rich either. That and the fact we do love toys LOL Which brings me to the "cars" we placed on our land yesterday. The Hammerheads were my X-Mas gift to the group. Yesterday was Shads first day back from vacation and we wanted to play. Well we put down our pads and parked the vehicles there so we could play with our toys. Dont worry we will clean up after ourselves when we get done. Much like X-Mas morning. If we consolidated our group land, maybe we could buy a sim. Does that make us land barons? rich?, or a group of 5 long time friends that pooled our resources so we have more options? This has turned into a he said she said posting. Like the fact you stated to me that your "customer was complaining and wanted her money back. While she states YOU asked her what she thought of the art over the water. I wont get into a silly debate like that here. The point of this post is... 1) A landowner has a right to build as they see fit on their land. 2) Dont presume to know what the outcome will be and judge by your nearsightedness when they have told you they are undecided. Wait and see what they create you may be pleasantly surprised or even thrilled with the outcome. 3) As in this case if you want to speculate on what they may build, take the time to visit other builds they have done. Eagan is a good place to start. 4) The most important, Never assume you have a vision that must be shared by everyone. Do as so many others have done and create your paradise within your property. 5) Get out and see how others have adapted and respected others freedoms. These type of builds are the most beautiful and refresshing finds in SL. If SL was made up of people with all the same visions we wouldnt be a world we would be a comune. The very fact that we are all so different and all have such diverse talents and visions is what makes SL such a wonderful place to be. To address later postings... -I would think that making a "polite inquiry" over and over after it was answered borders on harassment. -Creating a community and a vision of what it will be is a wonderful idea. But do you really think that just because someone has assured you that they will keep to your vision when they buy (not rent) a plot of land there means it will remain so? What happens when they decide to sell? What if they decide they want a store there instead? I admire the task you have taken on of policing your former properties. It will be a big task and no doubt you will face some battles in the future. I wish you luck. -I didnt know you knew so many of us so well to make the kind of assumtions you do. I think we all can see who the "me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL." is. _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-01-2005 16:51 I did not slam your build or homes just pointed out I may not agree with the layout and you accused me of trashing your project. You put a very interesting spin on what you hear from others and this is just the kind of he said she said debate I'm talking about. I have better things to do than to address your misquotes and distortions. The question here is a question shared by many. Our situation is only an example. Does a landowner have the right to feel others around him should conform to what he feels his vision is? _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-01-2005 17:48 Oh dear. Well, despite the fact that I believe you have an alternate agenda against a few people in SL. And that you will say anything to build your project up while tearing others down, I will actually do the right thing here and respond to your post Prokofy. From: Prokofy Neva Indeed hehehe. Note that it is Pahoa Jade who has decided to take this discussion public -- which I didn't -- so I'm happy to tell my side of the story. She's presented her side, but it contains exaggerations and fabrications. Let the community discuss it. One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. :) From: someone I purchased the Ravenglass sim to make it a planned residential community with an effort to protect the views. It seems there is a crying lack of such areas in SL, with many people moaning and groaning that their views are constantly wrecked by ugly builds. Everyone seems paralyzed and powerless in the face of the bad choices of a few, and it seems like it's time to push back. So I've been pushing back in a variety of ways -- raising the issue of ugly builds on the forums, suggesting that the use of negrate might be in order here and there, and also putting my money where my mouth is by attempting a residential development myself. You also stood very harshly against Ulrika on this very matter in another thread. I refer you to: /120/43/29427/1.html Perhaps you have changed your mind? From: someone I'm new and I'm learning so I'm happy to hear any criticism about the development decisions. I'm quite aware that my controversial statements about big ugly builds already on the forum have pre-fueled Pahoa's ire, because she assumed the worst -- that I might organize some sort of public condemnation of her build or a collective negrate of her builds which in fact I had absolutely no intension of doing, have never done, and have merely raised as a possible public tool to solve chronic problems in SL. Yes. You are new and learning and nothing in this statement is wrong nor can it be condemed. From: someone I first contacted Pahoa very politely to ask her if she'd be willing to sell part of the water around her substantially sized plot with an island and lots of water. Sometimes people are willing to sell patches like that if you don't build on them -- it's on another sim so it really does no good except to protect the view and water access. She then asked why I wished to buy. I said I was contacting her on behalf of an unhappy customer who was wondering if she should move and sell her land back to me because there were now builds in water that she thought mistakenly was Linden water. (I could note that most land owners wouldn't bother to take up an issue like that, much less buy back land from an unhappy customer.) In this your statment and Pahoa's is the same. From: someone Instead of just answering "yes, I plan a big store" or "no, it's just those animals," Pahoa accused me of merely wishing to chop up land and sell it at a high price, and of plopping houses down, crowded next to each other. Here I choose to believe Pahoa's statement of what happened over yours. That is my opinion only. From: someone Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer. In all honesty, that is your problem, not hers or ours. From: someone She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property or she'd know that this is not some get-rich-quick scheme. It has a large commons that keeps at least 10,000 acres unsold and preserved, including a large part of the waterfront. Instead of selling off the island immediately and risk having a laggy club or store, I'm trying to keep it in the community, even buying waterway into the next sim to ensure its view. To make it affordable, sure, there are 1024 or 1536 plots so that people can stay within tier zones. No, not all of us can afford to live the lives of the rich and famous players who have been in the game for 2 years selling their high-tech creative wares. Yes, there has to be room for others in the game. Yes. You continue to point out your "wonderful" plan for a community area in many of your threads. What your are attempting is no different than *MANY* others in SL are doing. You are not special, though I do personally wish you luck in your project. :) From: someone Pahoa next honed in on the nature of my customer's build -- it "jutted out into the water" she said although of course when you sell waterfront land, you have to sell it with water. I'll leave the public to judge whether that customer made a good build or not -- obviously Pahoa doesn't want judgement of her own group's builds but is freely dispensing judgement of others LOL. You just put words into Pahoa's mouth that she did not state. Bad form on your part. This whole paragraph of yours should be ignored. From: someone There's a larger issue here not specific to Pahoa. I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. That is a "perception" of yours. I see people moving all the time, old and new. Of course older players do have a knowledge of the world and how things can work in a sim or hurt it. That does not make them special, it only makes them knowledgable. Which is understandable. From: someone There's plenty of space. If someone inquires about a purchase or an intention merely to protect their own view, it should be understood as that, and not treated as some kind of intrusive crime. And if someone honestly is not certain yet what they want to do with their land, they should not be hounded to answer anyone with a specific goal. From: someone As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. If you want a sim to look exactly the way you want it to, then either buy your own, and/or work to get some Zoned Sims in place, and/or work to create a community within an exisiting sim. Otherwise, love it or hate it, you have no right to tell someone else what they can and cannot build on their own land. Of course, I offer one exception to this. And that is I firmly believe if one person's build in a sim is dragging the sim down to performance levels that keep other land owners in that sim from functioning, then that is something that should NOT be allowed. If it is about looks only, oh well, too bad. From: someone I started Ravenglass as an experiment. If you buy a sim and put in beautiful houses and try to make it affordable, can you protect people's investments? I've bought up surrounding land to protect views, I've watched as all kinds of large hulks have gone up around us. This isn't just my problem, but a public problem and one for the Lindens. Can there be residential sims in which people's investments are protected? Yes. Your project. Well, your statements seem to fall under wanting zoned types of Sims. There are threads about this in the Land and Economy forum as well as the Feature Suggestions Forum. It is an issue that has been being discussed since before even you came to SL. A valid discussion in my book. From: someone The jury is still out. One thing I know is that these issue need PLENTY of democratic, public discussion. Many views and interests need to be taken into account. An accusatory attitude and a haughty sense of eminent domain for the older, wealthier players are not the last word on this story. You certainly have a distaste for players that have been around longer than you have. I've been around a year longer than you, and I bet that you have more Lindens than I do. :p Your bias to older players is really something that I can't understand or tolerate. Wisdom in the ways of the world *does* come with age. The SL world is really no different. But even I will admit that wisdom isn't everything. However, prejudice against a poplulation in the world will definitely keep some from *ever* paying attention to you. From: someone I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. They've done a fantastic job of making an interesting and exciting and alluring world. They've unleashed their creativity and put out all kinds of whimsical articles, animations, particles, scripts, and so on. They see SL as a kind of never-ending Neverland. You unleash your imagination -- and away you go. But that's not what the game is for everybody. Not all players that have been around for months, years, etc. Agree with each other on what this world is, was, or should be. Nor do all of them have money, or a "love em or leave em" attitude about the Lindens. You assume too much. From: someone But on the other side there's another kind of player base who basically just want a replica of RL. They want quaint homes with realistic vistas with beautiful sunsets. See my response to your last quote. From: someone A possible solution is to zone new sims. They zones can be "residential" or "business" or "entertainment" or "experimental" -- and they have to be clustered because the next sim is always right next to your sim and in your view. Again, the issue of zoning is one that has been around long before you came to SL. It is a topic with much debate and discussion. It is also a topic that many of these "older players" agree with. That said, it is not the topic of this discussion. This thread was started because a member of the community felt they needed to vent because they felt they were being asked to conform to what another land owner around them wanted, and did not feel this was right but wanted feedback from the community. On that topic I say again, NO one has a right to tell another person what they can or cannot build in my opinion. My *only* acception is if the build puts a strain on the sim to the point that it is unsable (unable to move, walk, build, fly, etc) by others in the Sim. When it gets to that point, the Lindens usually step in though, so I feel confident in this exception. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 17:54 Pahoa, I'm glad you have a notion to build in conformity with land and to build things that are pleasing to others In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong? My customer approached me first about concerns about builds in the water adjacent to hers. As I have already repeated, she raised it first -- I didn't complain about art work that wasn't to my taste or the taste of architects in SL because I, too, would fall down on the side of creativity and freedom over restrictions. I pointed out to this customer that it was just artwork -- just dolphins and not a big building -- and she said she realized that but still had concerns about a potential big build. I didn't somehow incite this person to say what she thought of artwork, I just pointed out it WAS artwork, not some big build (although King Kong is lurking around the bend). No one can read your mind and know what you intend to do -- nor do they really need to know. But you can't back down and say these are temporary displays as a justification -- no one can possibly know that unless they ask, and yet you took offense at the mere asking. From: someone 1) A landowner has a right to build as they see fit on their land. All landowners have that right, and a landowner who is commissioning buildings or selling land has the right to ask on behalf of his customers what to expect nearby -- merely what to expect! -- so that buyers can plan accordingly. It shouldn't have to cramp your style to answer "yes, there's a big building planned" or "we don't know but it's likely just these animals." From: someone 2) Dont presume to know what the outcome will be and judge by your nearsightedness when they have told you they are undecided. Wait and see what they create you may be pleasantly surprised or even thrilled with the outcome. If I were nearsighted, I wouldn't be seeing the hulk of King Kong in the distance, hmmm? Let me send this boomerang right back to you. You made a judgement about me being a rapacious land-baron type merely bent on marking up land, selling it, and bailing out. There was absolutely no basis for that rash judgement, it was based on a long-standing prejudice against "land barons" in SL. Take a closer look and you see a planned development with a commons and care and concern about customers' views. Why don't you wait until it is all finished before pronouncing YOUR judgement? From: someone 3) As in this case if you want to speculate on what they may build, take the time to visit other builds they have done. Eagan is a good place to start. I'm not going to belabor the excellent, superior builds I have sponsored in this game since September. If any of these architects are not too intimidated by the mob justice on the forums, they may step up to the plate and mention that they were supported with land, tier and events for dwell while they built, or supported by promotional contests with prizes, or supported by purchase of their pre-fabs or commissioned buildings. From: someone 4) The most important, Never assume you have a vision that must be shared by everyone. Do as so many others have done and create your paradise within your property. Your constant harping on my supposed "assumptions" or my supposed "vision" are out of place. I'm raising the question of whether everyone in SL is as thrilled with King Kong as you are -- or not. I am not imposing my vision. I didn't put King Kong in the water. You did. I didn't take this discussion to the forums -- you did. I didn't do anything but ask about your plans. And while you may believe you have absolute freedom in this game when you buy land, the person next to you who bought land thinks they have freedom, too, and their freedom is encroached by your unbelievable resistance to merely talking over your plans so that others may adjust accordingly. Let me point out again -- that was ALL that was asked of you! No one asked you to remove anything -- they merely asked to be INFORMED so they could MOVE. From: someone 5) Get out and see how others have adapted and respected others freedoms. These type of builds are the most beautiful and refresshing finds in SL. I've flown all over and studied all kinds of situations. And I see what you are discussing as precious little. You might want to cite some sim names and specific plots. What I see is generally just the opposite -- people not feeling empowered to speak up and ask questions or even to protest because of a culture of fuck-you hedonism that often most cleverly disguises itself as "concern for the community." I'll remind you once again that I didn't have some grand vision or grand plans, just a request on behalf of a customer. From: someone If SL was made up of people with all the same visions we wouldnt be a world we would be a comune Actually, SL's old player base reminds me quite a bit of a commune -- subsidized, self-referential and hostile to newcomers. From: someone But do you really think that just because someone has assured you that they will keep to your vision when they buy (not rent) a plot of land there means it will remain so? What happens when they decide to sell? What if they decide they want a store there instead? Of course not. You have to start somewhere. I view myself as a pioneer trying to push against the tide of helplessness and anger I see in this game over the utter inability to do anything about the ugly build next door. The Lindens aren't going to zone. And players can't really enforce zoning without constant disputes and Linden intervention. So I think there have to be ways of developing alternatives. One of them is to buy a sim -- and even the views on to the next sims -- and ask people to respect the idea of "residential". Tcoz Bach Tyrell Victim Join date: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 973 01-01-2005 18:11 You can take your opinion and apply some of the language you used to it. All this "consideration of neighbors" usually boils down to somebody that moved in and wants somebody else to do something, and when they say "no", they complain like this. You're just one in a very long history of the people who lose these battles, such as they are. The Lindens may choose to mediate, but even they realize, the bottom line is, doing what you want on your land is the nature of the game that they are still trying to get to work. And if you wish to succeed in SL, when you're done complaining, you'll realize it and understand that if it's not your land, whining is pointless. You know, not everybody plays this game to be part of some arbitrary community. Have a nice day and thank you for playing Second Life! Oh and btw...enjoy the view. _____________________ ** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? ** Sam Portocarrero Jesus Of Suburbia Join date: 23 May 2004 Posts: 316 01-01-2005 18:18 Ok I'm going to put in my L$0.02. Ok everyone, in vision with me for a few moments here.... Lets say I am looking for land, I find a nice spot in a upscale woodsy area. This plot is one of about 30 in the area, all surrounded by woods and zoned residential. I buy the plot in the middle for say $250,000. Now, 2 months later the surrounding plots of land are sold, A developer has bought them all. A short time after that, as common practice with developers, all the land he has purchased is 100% clear cut, to make way for large multi million dollar homes. I now own land with a few trees, and a home, in the middle of a field, the builder builds large homes no more then 30ft from my lot line. Here's where the story takes a turn.... Do I.... A) Go back to my realtor, and demand my $250,000 back because the land around me has changed? B) Stay put, love what I have, and make the best of it? C) Consider selling my land, and buying a larger plot somewhere else? D) Stay where I am, sulk and boil about it, and naturally hate the people who buy those homes from the developer? Think about those options, and lets go over the results together... A) Considering that realtors make a percentage from any property they sell (was 3%) I would be demanding that they take money from the original seller, and their share out of their pockets. What do you think the response to your demands would be? B) This would be the cheapest option of them all, as you bought knowing that the other land was available around you, you took a CHANCE that it would not be clear cut, your bet was wrong. This would generally be the best option all the way around. C) If you have the money to purchase other land in a planned community already, or are able to buy enough land of your own, this may be the best option for you. D) This would be the worst option, the purchasers of said properties bought the land for the same general reasons you did, they liked it. Now... Realized that you had the option to ask questions about the other available land, you could have gotten zoning information (moused over it in game) or inquired what it's uses may become BEFORE YOU BOUGHT. The story above applies for both RL and SL, and many of the same principals apply also, please consider your battles and use your brain before you purchase any land in a "main grid" gated community property. - Sam Dominion Custom Homes Edit: There are already planned communities regulated BY THE LINDENS with zoning rules. This area is the sim of "Boardman". No buildings over X meters, they must be private single family residences, and they can not be obstructive in any way. _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 18:24 From: someone when you're done complaining, you'll realize it and understand that if it's not your land, whining is pointless. Well, I don't think an appeal to public reason is whining, or pointless, but I'm sure six months from now I'll realize how idealistic that was. I personally took Pahoa Jade's caustic commentary about our development to heart. She said the houses were too crowded together. Well, I was trying to balance the desire of people to stay within tier range and only spend extra $5 or $8 on 512, 1024, or 2048. That gives you the crowded look, especially on valuable waterfront land. What can you do? Well, not an awful lot. I spoke to one architect about maybe moving a house back, but houses are built to site specifics by good architects, and I wouldn't want to undo that care in someone's work -- it's annoying to try to build a site-specific house on to another property with different terrain -- especially if you are committed to not terraforming everything into a pancake and bulldozing it. So I went around and doubled some other lots and tried to make them less crowded -- but who knows if they will sell? It's always a crap shoot in this game because you can appeal to what looks good, but people don't always care. And I imagine that despite all her indignation, Pahoa will think a little bit twice before she fills up the sea with more King-Kong like creatures. And all her neighbours now know that the cat has been belled -- they can now raise this issue knowing that the way has been paved out of their timidity and sense of powerlessness. They can say -- you know, we enjoyed King Kong for awhile, but could you maybe put him away now except on Sundays? Looking a few sims away, I see a gigantic house, scrips up the wazoo, objects, prims, scripts, particles galore, the thing lit up like Yankee Stadium -- and the owners never online -- never. For weeks. It was fun to build, fun to live in for a day and then...of to World of Warcraft or whatever....meanwhile, they've left a sim at 1000 FPS, despite being brand new. I am for steadily making inroads against this condition. I think it is possible to appeal to some kind of common sense in the public domain. We can ask people to use 256 or 512 textures instead of 1024. We can ask them not to leave their particles/lights/animated scripts running day and night but just have them when they are actually online living in their house. A waterfall that you enjoyed for the day lags the whole sim. It would be nice if there was a way to turn off all this stuff EXCEPT when the owner was actually on the property. Sam Portocarrero Jesus Of Suburbia Join date: 23 May 2004 Posts: 316 01-01-2005 18:35 Oh that reminds me of another thing... While I was reading through this thread I noticed one major key word "sold". If someone decides to develop an area into a community area, and keep it that way, lease/rent out the parcels to customers. This insures that none of the land ever makes it into the wrong hands. Persons that SELL said land in hopes of keeping it a secure clean neighborhood are very misguided, as anyone can sell said land off or build big and ugly without any repercussions. Tenants on most rental property have the same rights that land owners do except usually for an extra club in the profile. Advantages of renting include keeping the ugly and flashing out. Again, consumers think before you buy. -Sam _____________________ Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-01-2005 18:38 From: Prokofy Neva In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong?. Yes I did address this: From: Pahoa Jade Prokofy, If you read my original posting again, you will see as I told you the day we talked that we are not finished with our plans for building and as I told you, yes, that area would be used to build a display for our Sculptures. Obviously as we start to build we will not be able to afford the prims we allow for so many to be out in the future. We plan to build some kind of displaystand/platform rising to the water surface (sorry no design drawings yet) and rotate our display. We did not "build" Kong, he is one of the sculptures I am talking about. It's very easy to check the creator by clicking the item in question and looking at the edit tab for creator. Hmm, you havn't mentioned the number of other sculptures we have on display on the island like Shads Dragon, Starax's Gladiator defending his women from a panther, Cthulhu, or our Jade and Crimson Wolves. is it because they are on our "land" and not the water you were unable to get control of? Well our actions and build in the end will speak for themselves. _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 18:48 From: Pendari Lorentz Oh dear. Well, despite the fact that I believe you have an alternate agenda against a few people in SL. And that you will say anything to build your project up while tearing others down, I will actually do the right thing here and respond to your post Prokofy. I don't have any "alternative agenda" Pendari except pushing back against your friend Ulrika's wacky socialist schemes to tax group purchases, whether non-profit or for-profit, and I've also taken on a few gigantic ugly builds like Blue Burke. I haven't built up my project while tearing others down, I've selected exactly 3 sacred cows that I'm aware of -- Ulrika's wacky communism, Blue Burke's big-ass builds, and the awed genuflection around Neverland. That's all a fair fight, nothing sinister here. From: someone One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. Yes, you are insular, smug, and self-referential and you'll find some new people contradicting you on this. From: someone There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. :) Oh, stop your smug condescention. I don't care how highly respected someone is in their little tight-knit self-referential "community". It's a big game with more and more people coming in it that make up a public larger than your cliquish community. And if that person has misrepresented a story -- completely leaving out the highly salient facts that SHE slammed my development, not visa-versa, SHE made unsubstantiated accusations against me, and SHE put a King Kong in the water LOL. So no need to try to "educate" me -- the facts speak for themselves. If people are so smug and cliquish that they cling to their friend and hug her to death despite the dubious merit of her putting King Kong in the water well....but I do want to remind you again that it was a request for INFORMATION so a customer could MOVE not an "agenda" or a "tearing down" or anything of the sort. From: someone You also stood very harshly against Ulrika on this very matter in another thread. I refer you to: /120/43/29427/1.html Perhaps you have changed your mind? Uh....what's your point? No, I haven't changed my mind about a vicious campaign to tax land barons and group owners and people trying to do big projects. What contradiction do you see here? This seems like a red herring just designed to burnish your image. Anybody with a grain of intelligence can see there is nothing contradictory and if anything, it proves my point about the need to have player-based efforts at zoning and player empowerment in challenging some of those who ruin entire sim views with their thoughtlessness. From: someone Here I choose to believe Pahoa's statement of what happened over yours. That is my opinion only. Well, your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever.... Yes. You continue to point out your "wonderful" plan for a community area in many of your threads. What your are attempting is no different than *MANY* others in SL are doing. You are not special, though I do personally wish you luck in your project. :) Of course I'm not special, duh. I make no such claims to specialness. And there isn't any special community other than people who want to buy land and protect their investment by having views generally free of the kind of inconsiderate, often temporary, annoying big builds that occur in SL. In fact, what was attempted in this entire story was a request for INFORMATION so that someone could MOVE and be PAID BACK. I'll thank you to keep that in mind. From: someone And if someone honestly is not certain yet what they want to do with their land, they should not be hounded to answer anyone with a specific goal. There wasn't any hounding. Sure, there was repeating of the same point over and over again, in an attempt to allay what seemed to be mounting indignation and furor on Pahoa's part over a mere inquiry. And I can see that it's because she came into this story with some baggage. From: someone If you want a sim to look exactly the way you want it to, then either buy your own, and/or work to get some Zoned Sims in place, and/or work to create a community within an exisiting sim. Duh. That's what I'm trying to do, and one of the ways you do that is inquire from neighbors building stuff that customers may object to whether they'd be willing to sell, and also merely asking what their plans are so you can adjust. Common sense, really. From: someone Otherwise, love it or hate it, you have no right to tell someone else what they can and cannot build on their own land. Only in the world of the self-refential smug cliques of SL could an inquiry with the purpose of helping a person decide whether to sell and move be transmogrified into "telling someone what they cannot and can build on their land." This is LAUGHABLE. There isn't a shred of evidence that I've done anything of the kind. Pointing out that King Kong is a big ugly gorilla to be finding in sea water isn't exactly asking anybody to change anything -- and I did this only after Pahoa decided to make this a public dispute -- to what end, I can't imagine, since she suffered no loss, was not asked to do anything, had nothing obstructive in HER view, and was merely approached about INFORMATION to help someone make a DECISION WHETHER TO MOVE. From: someone Yes. Your project. Well, your statements seem to fall under wanting zoned types of Sims. There are threads about this in the Land and Economy forum as well as the Feature Suggestions Forum. It is an issue that has been being discussed since before even you came to SL. A valid discussion in my book. I'm quite aware there's nothing new under the sun, the sun that shone on the privileged beta testers and old players long, long before I emigrated from TSO. But it's ok for a fresh voice to be raised on the issue -- which obviously wasn't solved. From: someone You certainly have a distaste for players that have been around longer than you have. That's silly. I've identified perhaps 3-4 old players who have injected their will into the public domain and challenged it. That's hardly an indictment of the class. I have gone to tutorials and learned from people, I've seen much that I respect in older players and have befriended some of them. So your comment is out of line, and mainly based on your siding with Ulrika over her wacky socialist scheme which I rightly opposed. From: someone However, prejudice against a poplulation in the world will definitely keep some from *ever* paying attention to you. *Shrugs*. I'll try to contain my disappointment. Meanwhile, there are a lot of other people in the game besides a few old players who believe they enjoy the noblesse oblige of eminent domain. From: someone That said, it is not the topic of this discussion. This thread was started because a member of the community felt they needed to vent because they felt they were being asked to conform to what another land owner around them wanted, and did not feel this was right but wanted feedback from the community. Well, could I remind you once again? This player felt needlessly skittish and indignant on the basis of nothing, on the basis of other forum debates, on the basis of bad experiences on her previous sim, whatever. She wasn't asked to do anything other than to comment on whether she intended to have a big build or not. Full stop. Let's not get too precious about this. If she can't take the heat of hearing that King Kong is kitsch -- well, get out of the kitchen as they say. But I didn't even start a campaign for removal of King Kong, I merely invited From: someone commentary. On that topic I say again, NO one has a right to tell another person what they can or cannot build in my opinion. You and others keep confusing a criticism of the aesthetics of somebody's build, much less an inquiry about their plans, with "telling them what to build". I think it pays to make and keep these distinctions. Crimson Sunchaser King Kong on Water Lover Join date: 11 Mar 2003 Posts: 113 01-01-2005 19:17 From: someone SHE made unsubstantiated accusations against me, and SHE put a King Kong in the water LOL. So no need to try to "educate" me -- the facts speak for themselves. If people are so smug and cliquish that they cling to their friend and hug her to death despite the dubious merit of her putting King Kong in the water well....but I do want to remind you again that it was a request for INFORMATION so a customer could MOVE not an "agenda" or a "tearing down" or anything of the sort. From: someone Well, your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever.... From: someone Only in the world of the self-refential smug cliques of SL could an inquiry with the purpose of helping a person decide whether to sell and move be transmogrified into "telling someone what they cannot and can build on their land." This is LAUGHABLE. There isn't a shred of evidence that I've done anything of the kind. Pointing out that King Kong is a big ugly gorilla to be finding in sea water isn't exactly asking anybody to change anything -- and I did this only after Pahoa decided to make this a public dispute -- to what end, I can't imagine, since she suffered no loss, was not asked to do anything, had nothing obstructive in HER view, and was merely approached about INFORMATION to help someone make a DECISION WHETHER TO MOVE. Pahoa didnt put anything in the water I did. Read the owner before you run your mouth. (that covers the 1st ,2ed quotes) If you are not trying to change anything by pointing out Kong( How many times?) , the shut up about it. ("This is LAUGHABLE. There isn't a shred of evidence that I've done anything of the kind. Pointing out that King Kong is a big ugly gorilla to be finding in sea water isn't exactly asking anybody to change anything -- ";) Be glad that your doing this with Pahoa. If it was me with the way you act I'd pave it and have Monster fights every Friday night. Now that we have that bullshit out of the way.. We plan to work with the area/land/water like we did in Eagan. Between now and then it will be the same as it is now. Crimson Sunchaser Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-01-2005 19:30 From: Prokofy Neva Yes, you are insular, smug, and self-referential and you'll find some new people contradicting you on this. That is your opinion though. Personaly I think you are someone who only wants to *make* people see your point no matter what the consequences, but that does not mean that others do not feel differently. :) Ok. First I should clarify what I was refering to in the thread that I linked. I apologize for being vague in that aspect. Here was what you stated and my response: From: someone From: someone Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva How did it come about that Ulrika wanted to leave her social democracy sandbox and come out and affect the rest of the game? Maybe it was just a discussion, but in reality, it was a concerted campaign complete with incitement, closing off discussion when it suited one, and character assassination. Pendari's response: Ok. Then Bob the magnificent builder from Slate, well, if he has any opinions on issues in SL, he just better not come out here and state them. He must only talk to those in Slate because otherwise he is just going to get the Lindens to bow to his wishes. Oh, and Pituca and Jai, sorry you two. But you can only disscuss issues in SL with Taber residents. And sorry Mistress, you are so alluring and persuasive, you need to keep all your opinions about SL in Midnight City. You too Eltee! Because we just know that if you come out with opinions about SL outside Luskwood, the next thing you know we are going to have fur covered signs mandatory in every sim! Oh, and you Ryen. Keep your ideas inside Taratus only. Because NONE of you is allowed to speak up on SL issues because you happen to be a part of a group project. I'm sorry, but if people cannot see how proposterous this line of thought is then I feel there is no way simple me is going to be able to explain it. Found on this page of the thread I referenced: /120/43/29427/4.html From: Prokofy Neva Sure, there was repeating of the same point over and over again, in an attempt to allay what seemed to be mounting indignation and furor on Pahoa's part over a mere inquiry. That is considered "hounding" by a great deal of people. From: Prokofy Neva That's silly. I've identified perhaps 3-4 old players who have injected their will into the public domain and challenged it. That's hardly an indictment of the class. I have gone to tutorials and learned from people, I've seen much that I respect in older players and have befriended some of them. This was your response when I stated: "You certainly have a distaste for players that have been around longer than you have." You may have only "singled out 3-4 Older players", but in your FIRST post in this thread you state both of the following: From: Prokofy Neva I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. From: Prokofy Neva I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. No matter how you cut it, those are your slams on older players. You have obvious contempt. Again I state, As someone who has been here a year longer than you have, I can almost bet you that you have more Linden money than I and many others that even came from beta or just thereafter. I certainly could never afford a whole sims worth of land. But do I begrudge you that? no. Because unlike you, I judge individuals. On their own, and for much different reasons than you seem to. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Lisse Livingston Mentor/Instructor/Greeter Join date: 16 May 2004 Posts: 1,130 01-01-2005 20:04 1. If you are selling "guaranteed views", then your buyers should understand that the guarantee only extends to the edge of your land. Parcels on the edge of that land cannot be sold with that guarantee (and perhaps should be dedicated to the "set aside for community use" program you mention. 2. 'Liberal' is not a swear word. 'Hippy' and 'Artisan' are not insults. From: Pendari Lorentz No matter how you cut it, those are your slams on older players. You have obvious contempt. I am not in the category of 'older player' that Pendari and others on this thread are. I have only been playing for 8 months or so. Yet Prokofy's bias and scorn is evident for me to see, too. I have read this thread several times and of the many people posting here, I count two neutrals, and two batting for his side. The two batting for Prokofy are ... Prokofy himself, and his alt. It's a wonderful vision, to maintain a beautiful residential area people can live within in confidence. However, one of the prerequisites is a project leader who can play well with others. On a totally unrelated note, anyone looked over some of the Second Life Herald's older postings on TSO drama? ;) _____________________ Land Developer, Builder and Real Estate Agent Come to my events! Sundays at 10:00 am: Texturing Contest Tuesdays at 5:00 pm: Land 101 and at 7:00 pm: Trivia Thursdays at 7:00 pm: Land 101 Fridays at 7:00 pm: Primtionary (Other events occasionally scheduled) Read my LiveJournal! Visit my Livingston Properties web site for your Real Estate and Building needs! Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 20:53 Lisse, I can understand that when someone comes in and challenges the comfortable status quo it isn't pleasant. My first dispute in the forums was with your condescending attitude toward me because I chose to take the dwell system seriously, ask a lot of questions about it, and support further inquiry into it. You scornfully turned it away as a "sucker's game" and lorded it over me because you took in rent money each week, and added insult to injury by castigating me because I chose to buy a new sim and try a project -- while still believing dwell is important and still believing playing with just a premium account and a 512 is also important. I tried to mollify you, but unsuccessfully. It just seems very important to you to be right -- so fine, be right. Stay with that if you want. But the game is growing by leaps and bounds around you with the entry of many new people with many different ideas and visions. Land is land. You don't have to be a saint or free from controversy for people to just buy it and try to have a residential community. This isn't Neualtenberg or some kind of hippie commune. Hippie isn't an insult to my mind, it's just a description. It's just a game. I personally am going to retire from forum discussions now. I only entered into this latest fray because Pahoa decided to air her ridiculous indignation publicly. But I've made my point and then some with you and others. Play your game -- nobody has taken a thing away from you. But if you keep up that insular attitude you will find yourself without customers -- just like the Lindens. Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 21:29 From: someone On a totally unrelated note, anyone looked over some of the Second Life Herald's older postings on TSO drama? Let me give you the short form on this everybody, save you miles of reading :) I opposed rampant display of BDSM lots and practices in public lots in TSO, given that there are children as young as 9 in the game informally, and as young as 13 legally. If anybody wants to go on that wild goose chase, they can go read the debates pro and con for allowing BDSM to hang it all out in a game with children in it, as well as non-consenting adults. But this debate isn't relevant to SL because there aren't the same kind of public skilling lots as there are in TSO, and of course, there aren't children -- in theory anyway. It is not a debate about tolerance of lifestyles, it's a debate about exposing them to minors. Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-01-2005 22:43 From: someone I personally am going to retire from forum discussions now. Hmmm I see the TSO Refugee took this opportunity to assault my associates in my abscence. Unfortunate, Prokofy as you will note yes I and my associates are older players. However, based on the illiteration of the incident from my associates I had been requested to in essence to stay my thoughts and opinions as I already have a formulated opinion of you from past experience. However this last debacle of responce from you cut to a point of where I had to speak up but not in reference to the aforementioned situation of the land. From: someone I only entered into this latest fray because Pahoa decided to air her ridiculous indignation publicly. But I've made my point and then some with you and others. Based on past experience with you and your indignation with "OLDER" players your contempt alone is why you entered in this "FRAY". Would you like me to enlighten you as to this point. It was mainly because Pahoa never outted you in her initial post you did that all on your own. Had you kept your mouth shut you would have never looked the fool as you do now talking in circles and basing things on you "YOUR" opinion of things. Pahoa gave you an answer you continued to inquire which bordered on Harrassment. I have known Pahoa for almost a year and a half now and she doesnt speak out unless she is to a point and you Mr. Prokofy crossed that with your indignation. So did you really get your point across as I am still flabberghasted as to what the point was. Inquiring is an innocent thing. However, to continually do so because you feel your Buisness relys on it, is considered harrassment. I basically told Pahoa when this all was explained to me. I told her to report you for harrasment as you were infringing on her and the groups rights to do as we wished with our land. Again what was your point..... was it? A)I'm a land barron and I am trying to make money selling plots of land to Newbies B)I'm a Self ritious indignation anus attempting to impose my will on others C)I'm a concerened citizen of Second Life and being such I want to make sure UGLY builds do not exist. Your Choice pick one as I have more that possibly could apply as well Either way Prokofy your point was not made you talked in circles which from your long drawn out points of the past is a steadfast ploy of yours to bore people to tears with idle banter and confuse them from the actual point of the post. So, My point is this Prokofy, Your buisness is your buisness I have stayed out of this for the most part. However, I will not stand idly by when you rant in circles and try to defame a friend and associate. If you have issues with your customers because you make grandious promises that you cannot keep is neither my nor anyone elses problems in Second Life. If I as a Co-Founder of Jade Wolf decide to put out 5000, 10 meter by 10 meter cubes and stack them to the moon. It is none of your concern nor do you have the right to even inquire about them as we pay for that land and its our choice since we "PAY" for the right to utilize that space and neither you nor anyone else can TELL us what to do with it. Consider that an indignatious reply however the point is basicly GTFOI. So, in closing to you MR TSO Refugee, maybe you might ought to reconsider your stance on things as your point was never made your concern was only for yourself and if you were being a concerend neighbor you would have respected Pahoa's responce to you whether it was short or even vague as that is her right. Give respect you will get it and in this situation you gave none. Have a Nice Day Sincerely, Shadow Weaver , Co-Founder of Jade Wolf, SLVISIONS, and AN ANCIENT. _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Alexa Hope Registered User Join date: 8 Dec 2004 Posts: 670 01-02-2005 02:21 I have just visited Carlisle to see for myself, before posting on here. Although you should be able to build whatever you wish on your land, personally I would not like to look out from my plot and see the gorilla. A lot of people, me included, want to have a pleasant, natural view from their land and I can understand why the person sold the plot back to the owner of the sim. You may wish to discount the view of a newbie but nevertheless this is my opinion. Happy New Year Alexa Starax Statosky Unregistered User Join date: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,099 01-02-2005 07:33 Can you all take a moment to consider King Kong's feelings in all of this. Monkeys have feelings to!!! Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-02-2005 07:40 Dont worry hun, I went and sat with him today for a bit. We had a nice talk and he is feeling much better now. He promised not to go stomping anyone or grabbing passing water craft or air craft from the sky. :) _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Siobhan Taylor Nemesis Join date: 13 Aug 2003 Posts: 5,476 01-02-2005 07:40 I've not been there to look yet, so apart from posted pics, I have no idea what the land looks like in those sims. However, I have to ask how someone can put Starax's work down by comparing it to the work of 'the best builders in SL'...? Most people would probably agree that Starax IS one of the best builders in SL, certainly in the top half dozen... Next thing, you'll be calling Maxx or Lordfly amateurs... Sheesh! _____________________ http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/ Ursa Falcone Rocket Scientist Join date: 26 Mar 2004 Posts: 1,989 01-02-2005 07:57 King Kong can come live with me...Right off my dock! I will sleep on his head. Loving the King since 19?? _____________________ From: someone Jeska Linden: I'm closing this thread because it's obviously overstepped the boundaries of useful conversation, even for the off-topic forum. katykiwi Moonflower Esquirette Join date: 5 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,489 01-02-2005 08:24 This is an old old dilemma here in SL, one that has also cropped up with controversy on the forums. The two schools present the same arguments and there is a call for zoning or Linden intervention. Yes there are some land owners who deliberately build a terrible build or block a water way just to force neighboring owners to buy them out at exorbitant prices but Pahoa, Shadow and Crimson (hi Crim! :) ) are the some of the nicest members in SL. Crimson was my neighbor for a long time in Mauve and I know with certainty that he is very concerned with maintaining the beauty of a build. There is a solution to this problem. If you want total control of a sim then buy your own island sim. There used to be Linden enforcement of theme sims such as Darkwood, but that was stopped. Even now when people move into Ravenglass they can build a club or hold BINGO events every hour 24/7 if they choose. You cant stop that or control it. You will learn that things change quickly in SL horizon and the only thing you can count on is that there will be change. Builds up, builds down..overnight. Sometimes a build can annoy you, such as that giant man seated on toilet that pops up now and then, but there is nothing that can be done except to ignore it. By the way, Crim's Kong was my neighbor for a while, as was his dragon, and I thought it was a lot of fun! Kong stood guard over our pretty cove at Mauve Falls protecting us all. :) Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 12:12 Yesterday I felt like retiring from the forums, and even pressing "release" on my land. But after sleeping on it, I thought -- but I have paid, year-long subscriptions and investments, and of course I should stay and continue my business in the face of difficulties. As Hiro Pendragon said in another thread, this is a very high-risk environment in SL and it's not for the faint of heart. One of the great liabilities is the "mob justice" meted out on the forum, as one player put it to me. I continue to feel that public discussions should not be confused with mob justice, but I'm beginning to wonder. Shadow seemed to think that I "outed" myself by answering this public but anonymous post, but most people would have figured it out anyway after Elle's post. I don't see any need to abandon this avatar, despite many people's hurt feelings, and I'm going to soldier on. If you don't like Prokofy, you can always get to know one of my nicer alts. The reason I can go on is this tiny newbie voice, this brave little post in a thicket of scorn and derision from older players. To wit: From: someone Although you should be able to build whatever you wish on your land, personally I would not like to look out from my plot and see the gorilla. A lot of people, me included, want to have a pleasant, natural view from their land and I can understand why the person sold the plot back to the owner of the sim. Thank you, Alexa, God bless you. You voiced what many think and wish and you should feel empowered. Given the high temperature of self-righteous indignation in all of these posts, I have to reiterate: 1. I asked Pahoa repeatedly and restated my concerns not because I was hounding her, but because I was trying to allay what seemed like really startling over-reaction and indignation over a simple request. 2. The person who inquired about the water didn't sell back precisely because she could be assured by this entire discussion that a) King Kong isn't moving to this side of the bay and b) there isn't some huge store to appear. 3. Lisse, in these posts I have taken on 3-4 players who have had a long ride without much of a challenge. My statement about the "beta test love fest with the Lindens" is actually an apt description of a common on-line game phenom described as the "fanboyz" problem elsewhere. It comes with the territory. All those adulatory bowing-and-scraping "Lindens We Luv Ya" type of posts that came in the wake of this latest hardware crashes are typical, and it helps to both poke fun at this phenom and push back. When Verizon or Time Warner mess up or crash, you don't see customer boards filling up with messages like "Hugz TW luv ya" or "Here's a Christmas cookie, Verizon". Irate customers are irate customers, and it used to be in the old American business lexicon, "The customer is always right." I'll remind you that this dispute began because I went to bat for a customer, and the dispute with Ulrika began because I went to bat for the concept of group projects, which I had, not being punished. That's not some kind of sinister "agenda," it's just representing an interest -- maybe not yours, but try to rent out YOUR property with King Kong in your tenants' face and then come back and talk. 4. I do not sell land with any kind of "guaranteed view" or any such false claim. Buyers are grownups. And I've been highly flexible in solving existing view issues with buyers as they know, even willing to buy back. I take Sam's advice to heart and I will definitely try the "rental only" idea on my next project. It's true that at any moment Blue Burke could swoop down and buy the whole bunch of lots and put in a store -- that, frankly, was my worst fear going into it. But I've talked to Blue Burke, and now that he's a proud house owner himself with purchased waterway rights, and had a chance to think of other issues I've raised, he isn't really so inclined. Really, he, Anshe, and others have "enough". There are so many new sims, and so much of their unsold land, that they don't need to invade what is clearly a residential sim and carve it up. Maybe when the land market is less soft for sellers, that could change, but we can only try, right? My experiment isn't the first of its kind nor the last. Many will have to be tried, and obviously in the face of tremendous intolerance, suspicion, and scorn from some old players. Who cares? When I first flew around SL, I thought it was fun to land on a dragon's head and play in a waterfall. But when I invested in land, suddenly I had to turn around my perspective. A waterfall causes lag. A dragon's head isn't fun to look at day after day. It would never have occurred to me to start any fight over King Kong. I didn't think it was a wise design decision, and that has NOTHING to do with the actual workmanship or artistry of Starax -- who is obviously excellent. The fact is, King Kong belongs not in WATER but in the JUNGLE. I saw some of my neighbours sitting on his arms enjoying a chat, and I realized that some people would enjoy this whimsy. But they enjoy it more when they fly to it for a visit, not stare at it off their porch. It's OK to voice these concerns. Pahoa engineered a stampede of support for King Kong among the five percent of players who are her friends AND post in forums. But there is a huge population out there, and Alexa has indicated that underneath all that surface adulation, there is the common-sense issue of people wanting to look at natural land -- full stop! Among the more inane comments is a carping about the use of the word "build" or assignment of the issue of King Kong to Pahoa Jade. Obviously we can look at the object creator -- Crimson. And obviously we see it's sculpture. The term "builds" is generic about stuff in the water. As for Pendari's comments about the whole Ulrika debate, that's too tiresome to rehearse here. Go and read that thread and continue the debate back there if you wish and try to trap me in contradictions all day if you want -- it's a great sport! -- but the fact is we all know Ulrika *campaigned vociferously* to affect Linden policy -- namely taxation of barons and group project leaders -- and that's way, way different than merely "starting a discussion". Why? Because she used her perch from Neualtenberg, with its avowed social democratic community, and its avowed subsidized Linden status, to get the visibility and clout to seek her way. Let's just hope the Lindens have the good sense to stay FAR away from this idea -- they're already losing Schwanson over poor service issues -- no need to club people like him with retroactive taxes, too. Many people have said "well go buy a sim" -- uh, yeah, I tried that. Actdually buy FOUR sims might be a better piece of advice LOL. Buy a private island? Not on your life. Go read all the posts about the buggyness of private sims. Anyway, who wants to try residential experiments off the grid? It's much more useful to try them on the grid with telehubs nearby -- those are more widespread game conditions. Let me round out this post by noting once again: A. No one asked Pahoa Jade and her group to *change a thing*. They asked about *intentions*. This caused an uproar. That kind of oversensitive reaction is displayed for all to see now. It shows the Lindens what a hornets nest this is, and it seems like they've fled from the problem, but I'm not going to, and the customer isn't, either, so it seems this gorilla-in-a-teapot is going to blow over. If Shadow files some kind of "abuse" report and the Lindens fish out the IM transcripts, I'm totally confident that it will be rapidly evident that there is no harassment, merely an attempt to find out intensions in a wall of oversensitive suspicion. B. I personally intend to do nothing but fly around the lovely Starax creatures or steer a boat around them. I don't intend to negrate, to get into fractious Hatfield-McCoy type of disputes, or do anything but trying to keep a sim that I bought residential to the best of my ability. C. I hope Pahoa and co. get a lot more dwell as people come out and look at these creatures. They can form their own judgement as to whether they have the same beauty they had in a falls in Mauve. It's not a question of whether the people running them are "nice" or "my old neighbors" or "trusted old players". Try to look at it dispassionately as a problem for these waterway sims with lots of islands -- they don't really fit. Jauani Wu pancake rabbit Join date: 7 Apr 2003 Posts: 3,835 01-02-2005 12:18 :eek: :eek: :eek: OMG! KING KONG! EOM :eek: :eek: :eek: _____________________ http://wu-had.blogspot.com/ read my blog Mecha Jauani Wu hero of justice __________________________________________________ "Oh Jauani, you're terrible." - khamon fate katykiwi Moonflower Esquirette Join date: 5 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,489 01-02-2005 13:01 Prokofky, Its not that there is a blind "love fest" with the Lindens as you characterize it, it's that we have seen the amazing growth and development of SL over the past year. Consider all the content that exists, and all the things you are able to do and create in SL; it's an undeniably wonderful accomplishment. Nothing is perfect, and each step along the way requires ironing out the bugs, but still new content is added regularly. And these are major content additions such as streaming music and animations. As far as private island sims and the bugginess concern, I have a private island sim and its all good as far as I am concerned. I love it and have never regretted my decision to get one. I think concluding that veteran members feel scorn or intolerance for new members is a bit harsh. I know I certainly love having all the new members in SL and the entire community benefits from their creativity and ideas. Try giving us a chance too! :o I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Crimson Sunchaser King Kong on Water Lover Join date: 11 Mar 2003 Posts: 113 01-02-2005 13:01 Just incase anyone forgot we are talking 2 different sims here. As far as I'm concerned you can build what you want in Ravenglass. As Katy (Hi Katy) said I'm easy to get along with. If you treat me with the respect you want then you will get it back. You may have noticed I'm not a "fanboy" even though I started the game in march of 03. As far as paying for the game, we all do or have so I dont want to hear that arguement. I don't give a shit if you like Kong or not. I do,I placed him there and I wont move him because someone dosent like his looks. He was put there as a joke to Shadow when he came back. I won't be taking him down just for Prokofy Neva.You keep saying Kong dont matter cause he's around the corner but how many times have you bitched about him in these posts? 7-8 now? The other things near Ravenglass were put there on OUR land because we like them. If you want to push it I own 3/4s of the stuff Starax has made. I could fill that plot with them. Last but not least I repeat I OWN ALL Of THE ART... Not Pahoa, Not Shadow. You bitched at Pahoa without even checking to see who owned them. Next time know what your talking about before you start. You said more than once that Pahoa Placed them there. Crimson Sunchaser Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530 01-02-2005 13:16 Okay, I gotta quote Siggy here... I couldn't resist: PSYCHE! KING KONG DIED FOR OUR SINS! :D _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 14:28 Crimson, Everything you've posted was already understood long ago, if you check the thread. Everybody LONG SINCE clicked on the animals and saw you were the owner. It's merely that Pahoa ventured to speak on behalf of your group and take up the issue of the builds placed and represented the issue on behalf of your group. She didn't say "IM Crimson, he's offline" -- she herself embarked on commenting about them and their placement in-world and then taking this once-private dispute on to the forums. So take up with Pahoa directly the issue of how your ownership/art/choices were represented. I can't see King Kong. Thank God! Well, OK, I can see him WAY in the distance because he's THIS BIG but I change my draw distance, I'm fine. I use King Kong in this discussion as a metaphor, a simile, a whatever all those things are that we learned in English class, to make a point: KING KONG LIVES. King Kong is always waiting to COME TO YOUR HOME. King Kong roars! And I will come to LOVE King Kong! Because it can get worse in SL and DOES! I'm going to bite my tongue for now...but big ugly builds that make King Kong look like Tiny Tim tripping through the tulips are right around the corner! *Bites tongue*. I'm taking everyone's advice to heart and I'm figuring -- if you don't like the SL weather, wait 5 minutes, it will change! Meanwhile, I bought some more overpriced water from a fellow who had just bought overpriced water and put it up for resale understanding that water gets really pricey in an area like this where people are arguing and trying to protect views! Great deal, fella! Do I need to repeat it again? I need to repeat it again. 1) No one asked you to remove anything, Crimson, Pahoa, and Shadow. Repeat: nobody asked you to move, change or do a thing. They asked if water was for sale -- people sell patches of water. It isn't. End of story. 2) Someone who saw the placements of sculptures asked if they could get their money back and move -- THEY WERE WILLING TO SELL AND MOVE, THEY DIDN"T ASK YOU TO SELL AND MOVE. Let's repeat it again in slow-motion: THEY...WERE...WILLING...TO...MOVE...THEY...DIDN'T...ASK...YOU...TO...SELL...AND...MOVE. 3) This extreme action was put to a halt by my intervention, asking Pahoa what the general plans were, finding out that they didn't involve a big store, weathering all her insults about our development, brushing aside her bitches about my customer's build, etc. 4) Nobody has lost a thing or suffered at all, everyone is continuing to play their game. EOM. 5) No one is going to negrate, attack, or pressure your builds your land your group or you or try to take away your right to do what you want on your own land. Indeed, we direct the considerable traffic out there now, without further comment, towards the King Kong because many people want to see him now and you should be getting LOADS of dwell LOL. 6) Don't confuse a critique of your design and style choices and community discussion of what people like to look at when they set up residences, with some kind of concerted attempt to make you change or move or do anything. When you put big things out in public, expect comments. Dallas Moreau Registered User Join date: 7 Dec 2004 Posts: 146 01-02-2005 14:57 "I'm easy to get along with" but "I don't give a shit if you like Kong or not"? Think about that. I agree, what you do with your land is ultimately up to you. If another person keeps after you about it, that person is not only wrong, but rude. But there's also this: Bringing this issue to the forums is the best way to guarantee an unsatisfactory result. You bring it to the forums to embarrass a person, to focus scorn on him or her, to try to turn the community against the person. You don't do it to negotiate or try to solve the problem. The person who brought it here shouldn't have stooped to that; the person who responded shouldn't have belittled himself. This issue should've been kept between the parties involved. If you couldn't solve it, you might have had a cooling-off period before trying again. Or you could've sought mediation, or a number of other things. Doing it this way means that one side or the other is bludgeoned in some sort of twisted popularity contest. Finally, the newbie/established player thing is very clear in this thread. As someone who has been condescended to a number of times inworld on that issue, I'll say fuck that. It doesn't belong anywhere in SL. I happen to like the Kong statue because it shows some talent, not because it's made by a particular person. I don't like it standing in the middle of the water somewhere because putting it there is kitsch, as was said. But that's just my opinion, and the owner has the right to do what she wants with it. Not because it's made by somebody who is supposedly "famous" nor because she's somebody who is supposedly "respected", but because it's a native right given to all of us. Please tell the rest of us where this elite, "tight knit community" is. For many of us who haven't been around that long, SL is a sprawling, chaotic place and I don't see much difference in merit or quality between the builds, products, or behavior of "older" players and newbies. I treat new people and people who've been here awhile the same way. If that's a mistake, tell me, and I'll be on my way. _____________________ Crimson Sunchaser King Kong on Water Lover Join date: 11 Mar 2003 Posts: 113 01-02-2005 15:22 From: someone As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. Er....I dunno...because you put a giant King Kong in the water? That would be my guess. Not really a presumption, just....a King Kong! Well, er, we did buy there first. In fact an alt of mine had a very friendly conversation on the first day of your build, asking about your boats, whether you built them. And I did inquire politely yesterday what your "vision" was seeing that you were a business, and a business with a King Kong in the water LOL. In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong? If I were nearsighted, I wouldn't be seeing the hulk of King Kong in the distance, hmmm? ((From page 3))--- And I imagine that despite all her indignation, Pahoa will think a little bit twice before she fills up the sea with more King-Kong like creatures And if that person has misrepresented a story -- completely leaving out the highly salient facts that SHE slammed my development, not visa-versa, SHE made unsubstantiated accusations against me, and SHE put a King Kong in the water LOL. So no need to try to "educate" me -- the facts speak for themselves. If people are so smug and cliquish that they cling to their friend and hug her to death despite the dubious merit of her putting King Kong in the water well....but I do want to remind you again that it was a request for INFORMATION so a customer could MOVE not an "agenda" or a "tearing down" or anything of the sort. Well, your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever From: someone Everything you've posted was already understood long ago, if you check the thread. Everybody LONG SINCE clicked on the animals and saw you were the owner. If you had dropped it LONG SINCE I wouldn't have said it again. Read from page 3 quote on. Was that LONG SINCE? Read the next to last one. The "your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever" Yes Whatever. Dallas I stand by what I said. I don't care what people think of it. It's there for our group. Had someone asked me nicely to move it I may have.(as Katy said..I am a nice guy)(at least I am until someone steps on my or my friends rights) I even had 2 people rate me because Kong was there (before all this started). I'm done being nice. I was when this moron kept bugging Pahoa. Prokofy didn't have a problem bringing Blue Burkes name to the forums, why would he have a problem if someone brought his here? I was on that night he kept after her. Pahoa and I were on Voice. Had he stopped when he said then none of this would be here. Crimson Sunchaser Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-02-2005 15:34 From: Prokofy Neva Funny how a neighbour's simple inquiry about plans, or suggestion to join in something perhaps more low-impact gets transmogrified into "an imposition of will" by the me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL. You talk a good game Prokofy, but you've already stated in other threads what your views are towards applying pressure on people to get them to bow to your whims. If you need your memory refreshed you advocated people starting grassroots campaigns to neg rate people whose builds you disapprove of. In Pahoa's shoes, had I read that thread, I'd likely have reacted the same way. Tcoz made a great post in this thread. Read it over and over again until it sinks in. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Sensual Casanova Spoiled Brat Join date: 28 Feb 2004 Posts: 4,807 01-02-2005 17:16 From: Pendari Lorentz One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. :) Pen, I usually agree with everything you say on the forums because a majority of the time they are very calm and I notice that you try and look at both sides to every story, but this comment here, bugs the hell out of me... Just because someone has been here longer doesn't give them any right to do things to others and a new player should NOT be afraid to stand up to them just because the date they were born. (I am not saying anyone in this thread did worng, I am a little off topic and just directing these comments). You are right some people do run in a tight group... and I for one have stood up to them many times, and yes there are consequences, instead of one person mad at you, you get ten... big deal! But, there are still people like me out there that will not judge based on the opinion of others and not with out getting to know you... it is wrong to try and discourage people to stand up to an "older player" .... just because they are older doesn't mean they are perfect. _____________________ Sensual Designs & Animations Sensual Productions Teleport to Sensual Designs & Animations Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 17:35 From: someone If you need your memory refreshed you advocated people starting grassroots campaigns to neg rate people whose builds you disapprove of. Yep, I sure do advocate this as a possible tool to use in extreme circumstances. Sure do! But obviously "grassroots" consists of more than one person, correct? So there'd have to be a community a people or at least a group of 10 who would take this upon themselves, correct? Am I joined by 9 other people who aren't my alts? No. Are there too many nervous nellies at the gates? Yep. Is it still worth discussing? Yep. Did I advocate it at any time for Pahoa Jade and Crimson and the others? No. Did I negrate Pahoa, Crimson, etc. others? No. First, I opened up a conversation with them about whether they planned to build big, so that someone who wanted me to buy back their land could have me pay them, and they could move. Now, was that a grassroots campaign to negrate? No. Am I afraid of advocating grassroots campaigns to negrate? No. Why? Because there are certain intractable situations controlled by absolutely unaccountable assholes that the community should feel empowered to deal with. Everybody has a negrate button. Use it! Is it necessary in this case with Pahoa? No. Pahoa said she isn't building a big store. She's put out some animals to display. They may not last forever. But at least people can maneuver boats around them. Next question? Obviously you first try low-key methods -- inquiry, discussion, seeking of a compromise, and so on. I can remember a situation where I and some neighbours in an area tried discussion, offering money, offering swaps of land, etc. etc. In the end, the person got a negrate because of their intractable refusal to understand that they had completely blocked access to land with a gigantic build that had no place in what had already been purchased by someone as a residential sim, and filled up by houses. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using your negrate. That's what it's there for. Or did you think it's only supposed to be used once a year on a griefer? But why? People are horrified at the thought of negativity! Especially group negativity! Horrors! But turn it around and you see it is a highly educational tool to help people out of their horrible frustration and helplessness in this came. If Crimson collected 20 negrates on his King Kong, he might have to think twice about it. If he collects 20 posrates, may the best man win. Negrates are eminently reversible. I can and do reverse them. Negrates should become an actively used function in the game on builds and people should seek to improve the quality of builds and avoid the basic annoying builds that everyone can agree on: lagging, dragging down a sim FPS with excessive scripts, blocking access to land, blocking a view substantially. From: someone Tcoz made a great post in this thread. Read it over and over again until it sinks in. Er, could you raise the intellectual level of your discussion slightly? People don't believe something because they repeat it mindlessly and it "sinks in". You attempt to use logic and facts for persuasion if you want to be taken seriously. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 17:53 Prokofy, Here is some rope and a shovel. I will cut you some more slack with the rope because you are doing a great job of hanging yourself. The shovel is for the pit you are digging for yourself. You may as well return the nose clip too, because reading your posts, it's quite obvious your S--T don't stink. You will say anything, twist any comment, babble on in endless paragraphs about your self appointed zealot for harrassing anyone who's build does not meet your standards. SL is about TOLERANCE, but reading your posts, you'd rather shove your ideals down everyone's throat. Snide remarks about age, or liberals etc, get you nowhere and your purpose is diminished. Go ahead, push the revert button. you will do the community a favor. _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 18:08 From: someone Prokofy, Here is some rope and a shovel. I will cut you some more slack with the rope because you are doing a great job of hanging yourself. The shovel is for the pit you are digging for yourself. You may as well return the nose clip too, because reading your posts, it's quite obvious your S--T don't stink. You will say anything, twist any comment, babble on in endless paragraphs about your self appointed zealot for harrassing anyone who's build does not meet your standards. SL is about TOLERANCE, but reading your posts, you'd rather shove your ideals down everyone's throat. Snide remarks about age, or liberals etc, get you nowhere and your purpose is diminished. Go ahead, push the revert button. you will do the community a favor. I'm surprised at such a nasty post coming from such an honorable player as yourself who I've heard described as an all-around decent guy. What exactly is your beef here? That I stuck to my guns and advocated negrating? That I approached a neighbor to protect a view? That I stood up against the smug, self-referential, cliquish old players? Er...WHO is the community, Weedy? It's you and your posse? You speak on behalf of "everybody"? Nobody else can be heard? I would urge you to provide one shred of evidence that I have ever harassed anyone over a build. Using a negrate is not harassment. It is legal under the TOS. The Lindens could never, ever accuse anyone of harassment for using a legal function under the TOS. Let's revisit the 7 negrates I have awarded in my short time in the game. -- At least 2-3 are accidents during attempts to press on a name and give someone a triple rating in a laggy club, then crashing and not being able to find that person. If anyone feels they are negrated falsely, they can always contact you. I've never had anyone ask me anything and those people were either trials or never came online to worry about it. -- 2 were to griefers -- widely acknowledges as such by all concerned, including Lindens. One had some kind of camera that followed us around on a property. Another built mile-long strings of wood way up into the air and bounced people around with scripts. -- 2 negrates went to one of those controversial security-script people who bounce you way back home merely because you accidently went on their property while getting lost outside the telehub. -- 1 negrate was used for a building that marred the land and blocked access and made land unusable and unsellable. Now you may not have 7 negrates in your possession, but I hardly think this qualifies me as quite the menace to the community that you'd like to portray me as. Even if I had 47, so what? Awarding negrates for building is legal under the TOS. Sure, I tend to answer in long-winded paragraphs, especially when parsing sentence by sentence through somebody's equally long-winded retort. Skip over it if you don't want to read it and read my lips: I didn't harass Pahoa or do anything to her actionable under the TOS. If SL is "about tolerance" why this constant heedless hedonistic slash-and-burn approach to so many builds? Heaps of burning slag formerly known as pretty natural sims litter the Lnden servers. If SL is about "tolerance," why the "hanging sheriff" approach? Or did you think you can enforce you values on other people through forums mob justice? I don't respond to threats and incitements to commit suicide, thank you very much. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 18:17 From: Prokofy Neva I don't respond to threats and incitements to commit suicide, thank you very much. From: Prokofy Yesterday I felt like retiring from the forums, and even pressing "release" on my land You said it, not me. Need a bigger shovel? _____________________ Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-02-2005 18:22 I am not "on either side"... but have been reading this in its entirety. I'll limit my comments to one thing. "SL is about tolerance." Who the hell says so? I flat out reject that assertion. My "inworld game" has zero to do with tolerance. It has to do with "me and my interests" - nothing more. Now, my interests happen to shift and change - from minute to minute at times. But, tolerance is nowhere in my game equation. Some other people's games involve socializing, virtual sex, political crap and commercialism. Good for them. Just don't force that on me. Someone once told me that SL is whatever you want it to be. Since you can make, script and design whatever you want given the time and effort, there is no need to buy land or anything else technically. It is absolutely possible to be a hermit in the game --- tolerance has ZERO to do with SL if you don't want it to be a factor. (Note: grieifing is NOT the opposite of tolerance.) You can now return to your discussion .... I will return to my game where tolerance has zero place. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 18:31 From: someone I would urge you to provide one shred of evidence that I have ever harassed anyone over a build. Ok. Let us get this right... You merely asked Pahoa a simple question? She answered with a simple " I don't know just yet". Then for some reason unbeknown to yourself, she comes here and posts. I have never meet Pahoa before yesterday, but I dont need a degree in rocket science to understand that someone would merely rant in the forums because someone asked a simple question of concern. Reading your posts, it immensly obvious, your contempt is the issue of this thread. Not King Kong, or your customers, or your nieghbors. You don't have a humble prim in your avatar. For someone who can't accept criticism, you sure like to dish it out. _____________________ Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-02-2005 18:33 From: someone Originally Posted by Pendari Lorentz One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. From: Sensual Casanova Just because someone has been here longer doesn't give them any right to do things to others and a new player should NOT be afraid to stand up to them just because the date they were born. it is wrong to try and discourage people to stand up to an "older player" .... just because they are older doesn't mean they are perfect. I agree Sensual. :) It is also why I stated "right or wrong" in my post. However, I stand by my main point of that paragraph which is, if you come out in your first paragraph of a post insulting and name calling an established, well known player, you *will* have *many* people that will not listen to a single other word you have to say. It is a simple fact. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 18:38 From: someone You merely asked Pahoa a simple question? She answered with a simple " I don't know just yet". Yep, that's how it went. And she got more and more indignant and I had to keep explaining it was on behalf of a customer OVER AND OVER. The first contact with her was an in-game PM/e-mail. She answered me from her email while logged off. It might have ended there -- but it didn't. In-world, she escalated -- because the very thought that someone might ask to buy from her, or seek to know something about her plans irritated the hell out of her. She went into it already peeved at something she read in the forum here evidently about Blue Burke's build in Clunn/Dowden. She decided I might do the same thing to her. She escalated and escalted. I think it's not only because she was having a bad sim day but because she had just set up house after moving from Lusk and escaping what she thought was forever from vexing neighbour problems. Let me repeat again in words of one syllable: Pa-ho-a did not lose a thing she gets to do what she wants. Er...for someone who is immune to criticism or doesn't have a humble prim in their avatar, I certainly have set myself up for SLEWS of criticism. I've listened to it all, and where it makes sense, I abide by it. Where it is assassinine, I push back. Yep, I do have contempt for assassine, old, cliquish, mob-justice beta-test-love-fest players who first showed contempt for me. But hey, if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes, it could change. Why don't you all get off this now? The earth moved on its axis, the LL servers turned and hum, and life goes on. King Kong is frolicking in his bay, and people are buying plots at Ravenglass and I'm widening some of the lots and buying some water nearby. Life goes on! Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 19:02 From: Prokofy Neva Yep, I do have contempt for assassine, old, cliquish, mob-justice beta-test-love-fest players who first showed contempt for me! A simple "Thank you for your response" would have completed it. Move along. However, you have proven, in spades, that it takes two to tango. Being unsatisfied with a response (good or bad, I dunno, I was not there) you had a hand in on this situation and have not offered one word of contrition. I believe you owe Pahora an apology and if what you say is true, she would probably do the same. Try humble sometime...you be suprised how far a little good will can go. Respect is earned...not enforced. _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 19:23 From: someone you had a hand in on this situation and have not offered one word of contrition. I believe you owe Pahora an apology I am sorry that Pahoa has had to experience any kind of grief, given the vicissitudes of moving from Lusk and having to set up shop in a new place. But she took what was a minor scuffle in e-mail and Ims out to the forums and made a long rant. Furthermore, she went into attack mode immediately, before I commented on her/Crimson's sculptures and began accusing me of being a rapacious land baron wanting to get rich quick and escape the area with cash after scarring the land. That was a ridiculous claim completely unsubstantiated. She conveniently left that out of her story. Here this scion of the community, beloved by all, showed a not-very-pretty-face to someone by immediately going *first* into attack mode and trashing a customer's build to boot. So I'm afraid that requires a push-back. You people have been at this far, far too long with no push-back. Why don't YOU try a little respect and stop lording it over the place? I feel she overreacted and made it worse for no good reason, given that nobody negrated her, pressured her, or asked her to do a thing but merely sought *information* to *make a decision*. So I don't feel I need to make some kind of public act of contrition. Sorry, Woody, that I just can't conform to the hanging sheriff's order to get on my knees. Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-02-2005 19:24 From: Prokofy Neva Obviously you first try low-key methods -- inquiry, discussion, seeking of a compromise, and so on. I can remember a situation where I and some neighbours in an area tried discussion, offering money, offering swaps of land, etc. etc. In the end, the person got a negrate because of their intractable refusal to understand that they had completely blocked access to land with a gigantic build that had no place in what had already been purchased by someone as a residential sim, and filled up by houses. The first part of the above I agree with. The second part is just plain wrong. If after speaking with a neighbor and trying to sway them to your viewpoint they don't come around to seeing things your way, the next step is to accept it, respect their right to do as they please on their own land, and let it go. That's it. End of story. To do anything more is to assume arrogantly that you have some sort of entitlement to define standards for others. You don't. Ever. From: Prokofy Neva There's absolutely nothing wrong with using your negrate. That's what it's there for. Or did you think it's only supposed to be used once a year on a griefer? But why? People are horrified at the thought of negativity! Especially group negativity! Horrors! But turn it around and you see it is a highly educational tool to help people out of their horrible frustration and helplessness in this came. If Crimson collected 20 negrates on his King Kong, he might have to think twice about it. If he collects 20 posrates, may the best man win. Educational tool? LOL. You use neg rates to lift people from the burden of their ignorance, which, I imagine, you would define as anyone who doesn't share your subjective view. The ratings system was poorly thought out. Why discourage people from trying to be creative by making them feel they have to somehow live up to standards other than their own, or build for reasons other than their own enjoyment? It's antisocial, unkind, and inherantly unfair, which is why the community has evolved to feel the way they do about the use of negs as you describe... it's essentially blackmail at the price of making people feel like shit. The punishment is worse than the crime, which is why they are so seldom used for anything but behavior or things that are truly offensive. SL is not a contest for those who don't wish to make it into one, and it's not my place or yours to force anyone into one. From: Prokofy Neva Negrates are eminently reversible. I can and do reverse them. Like I said, that's pretty much blackmail when used for something as inane as not liking someone's build. From: Prokofy Neva Negrates should become an actively used function in the game on builds and people should seek to improve the quality of builds and avoid the basic annoying builds that everyone can agree on: lagging, dragging down a sim FPS with excessive scripts, blocking access to land, blocking a view substantially. You're welcome to wish the SL world worked differently than it does, but it doesn't change the fact that it works the way it does. Rather than try to force others to change to your standards and tastes you would do better to accept that it's not going to happen. If you stop worrying about what other people do and just concentrate on your own creative expression you'll enjoy SL a lot more and piss a lot less people off in the process. If someone violates the TOS, report them. If they haven't, accept their right to do as they please and simply live and let live. From: Prokofy Neva Er, could you raise the intellectual level of your discussion slightly? People don't believe something because they repeat it mindlessly and it "sinks in". You attempt to use logic and facts for persuasion if you want to be taken seriously. No, obviously I can't raise the intellectual level of the discussion since you ignored the substance of the remark and chose to make an ad hominem attack instead. Perhaps you should follow your own advice? _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 19:28 From: Prokofy Neva But she took what was a minor scuffle in e-mail and Ims. Can you say "harassment" _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 19:41 From: someone If after speaking with a neighbor and trying to sway them to your viewpoint they don't come around to seeing things your way, the next step is to accept it, respect their right to do as they please on their own land, and let it go. That's it. End of story. To do anything more is to assume arrogantly that you have some sort of entitlement to define standards for others. You don't. Ever. Not so, G.I. What you are saying would be true in the normal course of things. For example, with Pahoa, who is generally a decent builder, sensitive to the landscape and her neighbours, whatever one feels about hers and Crimson's design placement choices. This is a normal situation that certainly doesn't require a negrate, and doesn't get a negrate because the inquiry was made, the information was gathered, and everybody but you settled back down to their game. However I would certainly find it completely appropriate to negrate a neighbour with a giant, obstructive, ugly, scripted, lagging build. Absolutely! And I hope others would join me on it. And this idea that this is "arrogant" or "entitlement" completely obscures the point that the person making the giant ugly build gets to be arrogant and be entitled, but I'm supposed to be helpless. Bullshit! I certainly don't plan to be helpless in the face of a laggy, obstructive, nuisance build. I've negrated a build and reversed the negrate the minute the person put back their weekend fooling-around back in their inventory. They came online for an hour and put a Big Ugly on their lot -- but you're online all week and have to stare at it day after day. Inventories are a great place for things like that. A negrate helps to concentrate the mind wonderfully. It's a great conversation-starter :) From: someone Educational tool? LOL. You use neg rates to lift people from the burden of their ignorance, which, I imagine, you would define as anyone who doesn't share your subjective view. *Shrugs*. We'll see about that. I think it might be instructive to have a Big Ugly Negrated Build This Week sort of running theme and post it here to see just how many people really agree with a negrate and why there's all this fuss where we can't push back and can't use negrate and can't start to rid the landscape of thoughtless obnoxiousness like this. From: someone The ratings system was poorly thought out. Why discourage people from trying to be creative by making them feel they have to somehow live up to standards other than their own, or build for reasons other than their own enjoyment? Huh? I hardly think anyone's creativity is ever stifled by the fact that you can use a negrate or that I advocate a negrate. Is Pahoa crouching in a corner? Hardly. Get a grip. This is a game with negrate in it. Too bad. From: someone It's antisocial, unkind, and inherantly unfair, which is why the community has evolved to feel the way they do about the use of negs as you describe... The negrate is a wonderful tool put in by the Lindens. Thank the Lord! And maybe your clique evolved this way because it's a lot of skittish liberals -- and I mean deliberately to use the word liberal as a swear word here although I consider myself a classic liberal -- because they are so clutched up about any kind of judgement that they fear even common sense. Their minds are so open, their brains fall out. Your community evolved? Well guess what. It's evolving elsewhere. We're here, we're queer, get used to it. Lots of other people will come in the game and do things you don't like, among them using the negrate. From: someone It's essentially blackmail at the price of making people feel like shit. The punishment is worse than the crime, which is why they are so seldom used for anything but behavior or things that are truly offensive. Excuse me, it's legal under the TOS. If you established some informal usage barometer for it, too bad. It's there to be disrupted. I would advocate using it for big ugly builds that obstruct. The fact that I didn't negrate Crimson's King Kong ought to tell you my extreme tolerance level : ) From: someone SL is not a contest for those who don't wish to make it into one, and it's not my place or yours to force anyone into one. I get to use my negrate, just like you do. It's legal. From: someone Like I said, that's pretty much blackmail when used for something as inane as not liking someone's build. Shit happens. People already use it that way. Maybe it is used too loosely. But I do believe that it is possible to arrive at some rough consensus of what constitutes big bad ugly builds that can and should be negrated. Example: Blue Burke's gigantic club with giant feet extending down into a beautiful basin in Clunn/Dowden. I actually didn't get around to negrating that one because I thought I'd open it to discussion first. He's actually telling us it's just an experiment now and it may be changed or removed completely. That was an extremely useful exercise. From: someone You're welcome to wish the SL world worked differently than it does, but it doesn't change the fact that it works the way it does. Boomerang that right back to you, bub. It's no longer under your control. From: someone Rather than try to force others to change to your standards and tastes you would do better to accept that it's not going to happen. If you stop worrying about what other people do and just concentrate on your own creative expression you'll enjoy SL a lot more and piss a lot less people off in the process. If someone violates the TOS, report them. If they haven't, accept their right to do as they please and simply live and let live. Why don't you follow your own advice? I didn't violate the TOS, and what I advocate doesn't violate the TOS and it doesn't even encroach on an already-existing common understanding of what constitutes a big, bad, ugly build. Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 19:42 From: Weedy Herbst Can you say "harassment" Sure can. What Pahoa did was raise into a public forum/mob justice discussion an essentially minor dispute between 2 sims. What she did would have gotten her thread closed on Stratics. Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-02-2005 20:32 LOL, I almost don't have to reply to you at all. All anyone needs to do is hand you a bit of rope and you happily hang yourself with it. Your posts reek of arrogance and a sense of entitlement... and more importantly, a complete lack of empathy for anyone but yourself. From: Prokofy Neva This is a normal situation that certainly doesn't require a negrate, and doesn't get a negrate because the inquiry was made, the information was gathered, and everybody but you settled back down to their game. You don't seem very settled to me. In fact it seems you've elected yourself SL's arbiter of taste. That must be quite a burden to have to carry around with you. From: Prokofy Neva However I would certainly find it completely appropriate to negrate a neighbour with a giant, obstructive, ugly, scripted, lagging build. Absolutely! And I hope others would join me on it. And this idea that this is "arrogant" or "entitlement" completely obscures the point that the person making the giant ugly build gets to be arrogant and be entitled, but I'm supposed to be helpless. Bullshit! That would pretty much be a textbook example of a sense of entitlement. You cast yourself as the victim of other people's bad taste when in reality it's up to any land owner or builder to decide for themselves what value to place on your opinion. That value has to be earned. It didn't come included out of the box with your susbscription fee. Is your opinion so golden that a new builder just learning how to use the tools should be made to feel like shit until they hurry up and conform to your standards? That's pure arrogance. From: Prokofy Neva I think it might be instructive to have a Big Ugly Negrated Build This Week sort of running theme and post it here to see just how many people really agree with a negrate and why there's all this fuss where we can't push back and can't use negrate and can't start to rid the landscape of thoughtless obnoxiousness like this. Obnoxious is right, but you're pointing to the wrong source. In the above scenario it would be you being the obnoixous person, and it's quite sad that you don't see it. You may want to talk to Maxx Monde about how well self appointed architecture critics go over. He tried doing something similar as his way of introducing himself to the SL community and was nearly ridden out on a rail. People simply don't react well to that sort of thing. From: Prokofy Neva Huh? I hardly think anyone's creativity is ever stifled by the fact that you can use a negrate or that I advocate a negrate. Is Pahoa crouching in a corner? Hardly. Get a grip. This is a game with negrate in it. Too bad. Let me spell it out for you in simpler terms... suppose someone comes into SL who isn't a professional artist and has no previous related skills and buys a plot of land to enjoy tinkering around on. They're experimenting away, having fun, learning, enjoying being in a collaborative creative environment... then you come along and tell them their building sucks and they shouldn't mar the landscape with their crappy no-talent hackery and you give them their first negative rate... a permanent mark of disapproval. Now they feel like shit and are no longer having fun. They're self conscious and don't want to experiment and learn for fear of being ridiculed. Nice. Way to ruin someone else's experience. The harm caused to them would be far worse than you having to look at something you don't find aesthetially pleasing. From: Prokofy Neva The negrate is a wonderful tool put in by the Lindens. Thank the Lord! And maybe your clique evolved this way because it's a lot of skittish liberals -- and I mean deliberately to use the word liberal as a swear word here although I consider myself a classic liberal -- because they are so clutched up about any kind of judgement that they fear even common sense. Their minds are so open, their brains fall out. Huh? What does liberalism have to do with this? If you're equating empathy and a desire to make people feel welcomed and supported as they learn to express themselves creatively then I'll happily be considered a liberal. From: Prokofy Neva Your community evolved? Well guess what. It's evolving elsewhere. We're here, we're queer, get used to it. Lots of other people will come in the game and do things you don't like, among them using the negrate. "Your" community? Excuse me? It's interesting that you cast this in "us versus them" terms. You've also previously called it a "clique." That's a bit bizarre and paranoid. It's "our" community, of which every SL subscriber is an equal member, no matter how long they've been a part of SL, or how much their tastes deviate from yours. From: Prokofy Neva I get to use my negrate, just like you do. It's legal. Boomerang that right back to you, bub. It's no longer under your control. Was it ever in question that you have the same rights as I do? Under my control? There you go again. Why not simply accept and be a part of the world instead of fighting against it? I wouldn't presume to control anything... including my neighbors, nor would I submit to their control. You will never arrive at a common consensus of what constitutes good taste or bad. Tastes are inherantly subjective and this isn't a contest to see who gets to be the arbiter. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 20:52 You still don't get it. You're confuosing negrating as a way of criticizing and motivating a player who has made a big bad ugly obstructive laggy build with negrating wildly just when you feel like it, on a whim, such as to lash out at newbies or creative people. Why do that? I'm not suggesting athat at all. And I'm not imposing my taste or general sense of Western-world aesthetics on anyone. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that many people suffer from and many people agree about it. I'm for casting around to see where that area of agreement lies. We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land. Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would. Maxx Monde is among SL's best architects. I'm glad he ventured out into that thin ice of trying to indicate some standards -- based on RL aesthetics if nothing else -- for what constitutes "good". I'm not sure what he did, but I'm glad he tried. What I'm suggesting is actually different -- negrating in extreme circumstances of really bad builds. But I shouldn't have to keep characterizing it and qualifying it just to please you and all the other nervouse nellies. I'll just do it, and post it. And leave it at that. He certainly wasn't "ridden out on a rail" by you witch-hunters, he's in the game and enjoying great respect for his builds by many, myself included. Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate. As for shovels, ropes, whatever, saying that you "feel like" pressing "release" doesn't mean that you are doing it. In fact, I wouldn't give any of you smug self-satisfied types the pleasure! Could you all get a life? At least a second life? Sensual Casanova Spoiled Brat Join date: 28 Feb 2004 Posts: 4,807 01-02-2005 21:17 From: Pendari Lorentz I agree Sensual. :) It is also why I stated "right or wrong" in my post. However, I stand by my main point of that paragraph which is, if you come out in your first paragraph of a post insulting and name calling an established, well known player, you *will* have *many* people that will not listen to a single other word you have to say. It is a simple fact. Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others. _____________________ Sensual Designs & Animations Sensual Productions Teleport to Sensual Designs & Animations Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 21:42 From: someone Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others. Oh, that would be ME Sensual! *Stands back while the stones are hurled*. Would you like to hold the cloak? Actually, I didn't insult her in the first paragraph, she insulted me in the first paragraph of her in-world comments, the record easily shows that. Oh, unless you call saying that she fabricated or misrepresented the story "insulting" -- but then she left that bit out and some other bits. I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Lordfly Digeridoo Prim Orchestrator Join date: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 3,628 01-02-2005 22:34 From: Prokofy Neva You still don't get it. You're confuosing negrating as a way of criticizing and motivating a player who has made a big bad ugly obstructive laggy build with negrating wildly just when you feel like it, on a whim, such as to lash out at newbies or creative people. Why do that? I'm not suggesting athat at all. What's the difference? One man's ugly build is another man's castle. Literally. A neg rate is a completely arbitrary thing; it doesn't matter if it's given out for a bad day or a bad build. It's simply there, forever in most cases. From: someone And I'm not imposing my taste or general sense of Western-world aesthetics on anyone. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that many people suffer from and many people agree about it. I'm for casting around to see where that area of agreement lies. They key word here is many. Not all. Not even a majority. If you took a non-biased poll, you would find that the majority of players don't give a crap about aesthetics or good building sense. This is why so many clubs are built as hollow black cubes. You are imposing your taste and general sense of aesthetics by neg-rating someone. Like it or not, a neg rating is a BAd Thing for most people. It's the same thing as a slap in the face in RL. From: someone We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land. But I could round up 100 newbies that either a) don't care about King Kong or anything else outside their kitchen window, or b) actually enjoy King Kong. What's your point? By the by, what does club-going have to do with king kong, your sim, or pahoa's land? There isn't a club in 3 sims either direction. From: someone Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would. Anyone except the builder. And his friends. And folks that use the building on a daily basis. From: someone Maxx Monde is among SL's best architects. I'm glad he ventured out into that thin ice of trying to indicate some standards -- based on RL aesthetics if nothing else -- for what constitutes "good". I'm not sure what he did, but I'm glad he tried. What I'm suggesting is actually different -- negrating in extreme circumstances of really bad builds. But I shouldn't have to keep characterizing it and qualifying it just to please you and all the other nervouse nellies. I'll just do it, and post it. And leave it at that. Argh. You have to DEFINE BAD. But you CANT in a diverse community. Bad: "I don't like it" "Well, I do" "well, I don't" ...etc. For some God-forsaken reason I'm seen as a good architect in this community, and yet, SOMEHOW, there are others who feel quite the opposite. Who am I to tell them that their aesthetic sense is wrong? Who am I to turn my prims on some unhappy person that doesn't like my frame-based construction method? Who the hell cares? From: someone He certainly wasn't "ridden out on a rail" by you witch-hunters, he's in the game and enjoying great respect for his builds by many, myself included. He's jaded, he's cynical, he doesn't like doing builds for people because people don't like opinions. I'd say as a community we broke him of any spirit he had instead of listening to him. From: someone Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate. And yet you advocate neg rating parties for buildings you don't like? Pfft. What's the cutoff for a newbie that you won't destroy their possibly fragile ego with a dozen negative rates? From: someone Could you all get a life? At least a second life? And for fuck's sake, enough with the generalized ad-hominem attacks. You're digging yourself a hole by accusing all the "oldbies" (myself included, imagine that) for being a cliquey, self-important hodgepodge of assumed royalty. It's not helping your position. LF _____________________ ---- http://www.lordfly.com/ http://www.twitter.com/lordfly http://www.plurk.com/lordfly Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 23:08 From: someone From: Lordfly Digeridoo What's the difference? One man's ugly build is another man's castle. Literally. A neg rate is a completely arbitrary thing; it doesn't matter if it's given out for a bad day or a bad build. It's simply there, forever in most cases. True enough. But I do think we can find a few examples of general consensus on what constitutes a big, bad, obstructive, laggy build. Why should they remain forever? In fact they often move when you point out that they are problematic, but few people bother -- they are so intimidated! From: someone They key word here is many. Not all. Not even a majority. If you took a non-biased poll, you would find that the majority of players don't give a crap about aesthetics or good building sense. This is why so many clubs are built as hollow black cubes. Just because most people don't care or it's the general norm doesn't mean you can't try. I do believe that reason is common to all men and women. And it is possible to appeal to people's innate sense of beauty, regardless of their cultures. From: someone You are imposing your taste and general sense of aesthetics by neg-rating someone. Like it or not, a neg rating is a BAd Thing for most people. It's the same thing as a slap in the face in RL. Apparently it became that in this game because of the mindset of the original players and what they established through practice. But why should I or others be stuck with that? A negrate is a good way to start a conversation that someone will take seriously when they've ignored everything else. From: someone But I could round up 100 newbies that either a) don't care about King Kong or anything else outside their kitchen window, or b) actually enjoy King Kong. What's your point? I actually think that most people even who enjoy King Kong don't want to look at him from their porch on their expensive home and land. Raise your hand everybody who plans to buy King Kong out of the bay and put him out on their front lawn. From: someone By the by, what does club-going have to do with king kong, your sim, or pahoa's land? There isn't a club in 3 sims either direction. Nothing. We're talking about the general issue of big bad ugly builds. From: someone Argh. You have to DEFINE BAD. But you CANT in a diverse community. Bad: "I don't like it" "Well, I do" "well, I don't" Raise your hand everybody who wants King Kong in their front yard 24/7 NOW and is going out to buy him. ...etc. From: someone For some God-forsaken reason I'm seen as a good architect in this community, and yet, SOMEHOW, there are others who feel quite the opposite. Who am I to tell them that their aesthetic sense is wrong? Who am I to turn my prims on some unhappy person that doesn't like my frame-based construction method? Who the hell cares? Well I care, and you are one of the best. Not everyone finds it to their taste. But liking your type of architecture or not is not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about taste, which is arbitrary and subjective. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that obstruct that everyone can agree on. Lordfly, when Blue Burke put a giant, glowing, yellow ugly square many feet high out in Allston, believe me, you didn't have to go to architecture school to get a real quick consensus from all the business and land owners for miles that this was FUCKING UGLY. It turned everything for many miles piss-yellow. Now come on, we can't call this an eyesore, contact the owner and say "Er...what are you doing with this? It's turning everything yellow. Could you at least turn it off? Better yet, remove it?" It's this constant abstracting and diversion into the "one-man's-castle" rhetoric that prevents simple, swift, common-sense action on a thing like the big yellow box. Turns out it was "just a test". Whatever. From: someone He's jaded, he's cynical, he doesn't like doing builds for people because people don't like opinions. I'd say as a community we broke him of any spirit he had instead of listening to him. Well I admire Maxx's work quite a bit. I know he doesn't deign to do builds for anyone for love nor money. He is cynical, but he has reason to be. And frankly, I find that a really chilling statement "as a community we broke him of any spirit". What a gory process! What kind of community does THAT, a community of cannibals? Why would you have to mob him because he showed some spirit and some judgement? I don't know the issues at stake or what he judged about, but I can guarantee you that what I'm talking about is actually far less grand. I'm generally talking about big bad ugly yellow or black boxes that hinder everyone else's land. From: someone And yet you advocate neg rating parties for buildings you don't like? Pfft. What's the cutoff for a newbie that you won't destroy their possibly fragile ego with a dozen negative rates? I know it's hard to read through all these long threads. So let me say it again. I don't advocate negrating parties for easily-wilted newbies. There'd be no sense. I'm talking about big ugly builds that obstruct, that block access, that devalue, that lag a sim. I think there's every reason to take action on such things. Negrate wouldn't be the first action, as I wrote earlier, but the last. But an effective one that we should be willing to use. It's not about "buildings I don't like". I can see that I'm simply going to have to round up examples and then you'll see. From: someone And for fuck's sake, enough with the generalized ad-hominem attacks. You're digging yourself a hole by accusing all the "oldbies" (myself included, imagine that) for being a cliquey, self-important hodgepodge of assumed royalty. It's not helping your position. Well thanks for that comment, I will try to avoid "generalized attacks". Lordfly, I was blasted with a completely unfair ad-hominent attack from the get-go about my motivations and intentions. It was absurd. So I push back. People really have had a free ride for a long time never getting push-backs when they act so arrogantly and so smugly. Frankly, there *is* a core of self-important assumed royalty, you can see it yourself. I don't fear "not helping my position" because it can stand or fall on its own without having to suck up to the right people. Really, it's a small-town atmosphere of status quo that will start to break up as any more people come in the game. Just scroll through this thread and look at all the hectoring, lecturing, know-it-all posts from people telling me "look out for your own good". And look at your very phraseology about running Maxx out on a rail. I advocate a much milder thing -- talking publicly about big bad ugly builds, and negrating the builder if he doesn't respond. Whereas you're talking about running people out on rails, ostracizing them for the duration. Why? Everybody here is lecturing me about "tolerance". Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-02-2005 23:20 The bottom line (for me) is this; if you are not being directly affected, i.e, reduced sim performance, griefing, etc., then it's really not your place to protest or question (other than internally or amongst confidants) what others choose to do with their land. I have been dismayed MANY times over what my neighbors build (I have lived in many different sims), as sometimes they seem to not consider the impact of building huge boxes that butt up against the property line or the like. I simply either move, or wait them out, usually the latter. I have found this to be the most effective method as its seems those who build big boxes and the like are either; a) new and learning, b) impatient, and tend to move out of the area soon, or c) just simply untalented at building. The trend I have seen with the last type is that they get bored and either leave the area or leave SL all together. Waiting folks out has proven VERY effective for me where I currently reside. If you feel you simply cannot abide the tastes of your neighbors, and feel that you must speak to them about it, try to be civil, or it will usually end up like this situation has. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 23:37 From: someone Waiting folks out has proven VERY effective for me where I currently reside. If you feel you simply cannot abide the tastes of your neighbors, and feel that you must speak to them about it, try to be civil, or it will usually end up like this situation has. Thank you, that's very good advice. And I think you are right that it is possible to wait out things. Your comment is right on target because it makes sense, draws on common sense and actual experience, and avoids the hectoring tone of so many of the posts here. Thank you. And waiting out is exactly what I'm doing now. But some things don't go away. Case in point: this huge terraformed mountatin that sat there in Ross without anything on it. Ingrid brought it to Blue's attention -- repeatedly -- he did nothing. I started a thread here about some other big thing of his in Clunn -- and Ingrid mentioned it again in the thread, God bless her. And Blue came on and said, oh, sorry, I had forgotten, I'll fix it. That's an example of what I'm talking about. Mention things. If it doesn't work, raise it in the forums -- that's obviously Pahoa's method that started this flame. And then failing everything, negrate. That often gets attention where lesser methods failed. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-03-2005 01:02 I'm no Fay Ray, or Jessica Lange for that matter, but I do agree Kong is greatly misunderstood ;) _____________________ Anshe Chung Business Girl Join date: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1,615 01-03-2005 03:21 I think it is common consensus on this forum that every normal SL resident can do with land what he/she want. This include banning from land whomever you want and building on land whatever you want. Of course once you own more than three sims worth of land you automatically loose this fundamental right and it is cool for people neg rate and flame you if you don't terraform and build on your land to their specification. You should also know that if you are land baron and ban griefer from your land this griefer will instantly be promote to revolutionary hero ;-) _____________________ ANSHECHUNG.COM: Buy land - Sell land - Rent land - Sell sim - Rent store - Earn L$ - Buy L$ - Sell L$ SLEXCHANGE.COM: Come join us on Second Life's most popular website for shopping addicts. Click, buy and smile :-) Selador Cellardoor Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,082 01-03-2005 04:46 Prokofy, <> That silly statement alone discredits much of what you have said here. I have noticed in recent months a tendency to try to turn sl into a carbon copy of the real world. This has been manifested by a rejection of anything that does not fit into a 'naturalistic' landscape. While I can see the virtue of having open waterways and areas of 'natural' beauty, one of the delights of second life used to be the way you would come across the surreal, the anomalous or the quirky in the course of your travels. Certainly, many people who have come here with the idea of making money from real estate seem to want to turn the world into an estate agent's brochure. In real life I am involved with planning - zoning I believe the Americans call it. We are a small and overcrowded island - not all that dissimilar from second life! - and one of the fundamental principles of our planning laws is that you do not have a right to a view. It doesn't matter if you overlook a lovely forest and lake, if someone puts up a building which conforms to all the other planning requirements and replaces your view with that of a brick wall, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. The same would seem to apply to second life. I believe you mentioned in a previous posting that things only last a short time in second life. I remember my dismay when someone built something at the end of my landing stage, blocking my view of the waterway and replacing it with a multi-storey blank wall covered with a zebra-stripe texture. It was unpleasant for a while, but then it went and was replaced by something much better. Had it not, I always had the option of moving myself if I wanted to go down that route. Views are ephemeral; relationships are not. Personally I don't believe it's worth sacrificing one for the other. Edited for typo _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-03-2005 06:12 From: someone From: Selador Cellardoor Prokofy, <> That silly statement alone discredits much of what you have said here. Weedy told me to press "release" or "delete" and the community would be grateful. I think that's the attitude that new players have to struggle against. I think it's helpful to characterize what they do accurately. The "suicide" is of course of the pixelated variety. From: someone I have noticed in recent months a tendency to try to turn sl into a carbon copy of the real world. This has been manifested by a rejection of anything that does not fit into a 'naturalistic' landscape. ] You've summed up very eloquently here what I was trying to say a few posts back. Implicit in your statement is a condemnation of those who are so low-brow or middle-brow or middle-class or bourgeois enough to want that carbon copy. Yet...why do you think you've noticed this trend? Because new people are coming into the game -- from TSO, UO, RL, whatever. *And this is what they want.* Some land barons and some group project leaders give them what they want, and this has the old technocratic and creative intelligentsia elite with their knickers in a twist. In fact, there's a mixture of old-guard beta-test-love-fest tekkies/designers and brand-new "carpon copy real-lifers" who want that "naturalistic" device. Of course as Juro has pointed out, um, what's exactly natural about Eric Linden's interpretation of northwestern American rocky waterfront? I personally have preferred the more whimsical exotic landscapes where all kinds of big trees and odd creatures appear for roaming around in. Yes, that might sound like a contradiction to what I've posted about King Kong, but that's because subtlety can often be lost here. It's merely when I *assumed the role of developer* -- yes, it's only a role, in a game -- that I began to see through the eyes of those "cc real-lifers" and understand that they valued a King-Kong-free landscape -- as one brave one indicated -- and that a good business would try to give it to them. If Philip Linden wants a million people to come through the doors, surely he didn't mean them all to be the technocrats nursed in the arms of King Kong. When you have a million people, you have Wal-Mart shoppers and people who take the RV to Yellowstone. Hey, in fact we already have that in SL! These people are paying customers and can't be castigated for their "rejectionist" attitude. It will be their game, too. Everybody is happy to loudly proclaim the freedom of builds on one's land -- except when it's real-life carbon-copies? These are conflicts that must be managed, not wished away. From: someone While I can see the virtue of having open waterways and areas of 'natural' beauty, one of the delights of second life used to be the way you would come across the surreal, the anomalous or the quirky in the course of your travels. Yes, it was delightful to be able not to think of valuable waterfront property, just swimming and flying around through the landscape whatever it turned up, turning away from the stupid and ugly, flying toward the beautiful. But I personally paled on that after a lot of slow-rezzing laggy malls and boxy clubs and began to wonder if something else was possible, at least for residence, so I tried these experiments. From: someone Certainly, many people who have come here with the idea of making money from real estate seem to want to turn the world into an estate agent's brochure. I personally have absolutely no illusions about this. I don't think you *can* make money in virtual estate (it's not real) because the risks and losses are just too great. There's no way to calculate things like the teleporter to your sim being broken for 3 days or the entire game being down just when ppl were getting ready to buy a house. Those few who have made some money on it have done it through mass of land, volume of sales, and high turnover. It's precisely because of the inability to protect view investments, the tier structure, and the risks in the game mechanics, that land barons are driven to mass produce, with predictable effects. From: someone In real life I am involved with planning - zoning I believe the Americans call it. We are a small and overcrowded island - not all that dissimilar from second life! - and one of the fundamental principles of our planning laws is that you do not have a right to a view. It doesn't matter if you overlook a lovely forest and lake, if someone puts up a building which conforms to all the other planning requirements and replaces your view with that of a brick wall, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Well, this is why many new and old Americans fled your repressive shores of Europe or Asia : ) People do fight to protect their views in America. I can think of the ferocious lawsuits over the Trump Tower in New York City. Projects become politics and legislators get involved in approving or disapproving. Consumers boycott slumlords and other types of builders they loathe. Neighbourhood groups fight back. There is a robust civil society that fights for that view and often gets it. There's an awful lot you can do about a tower going up putting your view into shadows -- from letter-writing to demonstrations to city council intervention. It's precisely that kind of fighting spirit that is missing from SL, where many people roll over and take the ugly pancaking of a beautiful island lying down. From: someone The same would seem to apply to second life. I believe you mentioned in a previous posting that things only last a short time in second life. I remember my dismay when someone built something at the end of my landing stage, blocking my view of the waterway and replacing it with a multi-storey blank wall covered with a zebra-stripe texture. It was unpleasant for a while, but then it went and was replaced by something much better. Had it not, I always had the option of moving myself if I wanted to go down that route. Yes, sadly, this is the engine of the game -- and the Lindens are able to justify their rolling out of new sims constantly precisely because of the need for so many people to move away from ugly builds. From: someone Views are ephemeral; relationships are not. Personally I don't believe it's worth sacrificing one for the other. It's truer than you know : ( Selador Cellardoor Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,082 01-03-2005 06:56 Prokofy, <> My apologies; I thought you were responding to the 'rope and shovel' statement. _____________________ Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-03-2005 07:29 From: Prokofy Neva Yesterday I felt like retiring from the forums, and even pressing "release" on my land. I didn't suggest it, you did. I merely agreed. _____________________ Ardith Mifflin Mecha Fiend Join date: 5 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,416 01-03-2005 07:56 For every critical comment you've made about someone's build, there are a dozen others criticizing your own build. This is the problem with subjectivity and aesthetics. What you think is visually appealing may not (and in fact, does not) appeal to everyone else. So before you decide to impose your misguided sense of aesthetics on the world as a whole, I suggest you take a step back and ask yourself if you might not be the target of derision. Even the best build I've seen in your project has a very mundane, banal flavor to it. It's like chocolate cake: everyone loves the first bite, because it's a great comfort food. But people quickly grow tired of the flavor when consumed in excess. A more proper analogy might be to the archetypal white picket fences of suburban communities here in America. They absolutely stifle creativity and innovation, and instead favor conformity and banality. Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-03-2005 08:05 Selador, there was no need to apologize to him. Don't let him confuse you with his circular rhetoric. Selador I know we have had our differences in the past however, for the most part you can attest that I am either cynical/truthful and at times bitter in my commentary yet none borders on the side of surealism or inane. I Opted to stay out of this one for the most part as Crim and Pahoa are Adults and can handle themselves. My ISP was down all day yesterday so I couldnt post nor even get in Second Life. But here I am today at work of course. So with that said I want to make one thing PERFECTLY CLEAR!! but first let me post what I am replying too. From: someone I am sorry that Pahoa has had to experience any kind of grief, given the vicissitudes of moving from Lusk and having to set up shop in a new place. Pahoa's, Crimson's and My choice to leave Lusk was not out of Necessity or distaste for our neighbor's in fact we lived their peacefully for over a year. Our choice for moving really isn't the communitys need to know as it was our private decision carried forth in private VOICE conversations. So, Prokofy on that point never assume anything as the more you do the more you make yourself look like an ass. But honestly I don't even have to really say that as your doing such a wonderful job of choking on your own words N-I-C-E.... Now in retort about the reporting a harrasment charge, needless to say you hung yourself on that a few post back mentioning emails and needless IM's. Repetitive inquiry's is constituted as harrasment when it is unwanted kinda like sexual harrasment if someone says no they mean it. Saying I dont know is the same principle. So, what part of she didnt know did you not understand the didnt or the know. In addtion as Crim stated they<< Being the statues>> are his. However, the dragon in the woods is mine. But what piqued my curiosity was this statment. From: someone You people have been at this far, far too long with no push-back. Why don't YOU try a little respect and stop lording it over the place? First off who is "you people"? and push-back I have news for you I have been pushed back by some of the best. You Mr. TSO Refugee are based on your own contridiction of words are mearly a small fry in a big sea of sharks better thank god Im a Wolf. If I am wrong I apologise however, in this case considering your circular banter you will hear NO apologies from this old Avatar. Second off give some respect and you might get it. Your arrogance and I am better than any of you attitude certainly has turned me into a vehement oppositionist against you. To even presume for one instance that Neg ratings and incessant inquirys will get you to have your way is appauling to say the least. And a sincere lack of respect towards anyone if you truly believe that will attain you what you wish. I have far to greater number of friends and enemys in second life all of which are highly intelegent and sound in thier decisions on things. Mostly friends have spoken here and even one that was at a point in time bordering on the other. But the point is Prokofy, it doesnt matter who you are as Korg said "Tollerance" has little to do with this world. A friend told me you can only make yourself happy first which in essence goes back to what Korg said. But I assure you of this Prokofy if you don't quit talking in circles trying to cover your ass at every turn and accept your actions as a human being you will never get respect as you so eloquently stated. So Prokofy take this as a lesson #1 Dont bug people about their land as its thiers and as long as they follow the TOS they can do as they wish. #2 Your issues with your customers is your problem Not mine, nor Pahoa's nor Crims nor anyone in Second Life's for that matter. #3 If you Sell land, be prepared if you sell alot of it, your gonna be labled a Land Barron Period!!..get over it. #4 If you think Neg rating are going to get someones attention you are sadly mistaken as some of us wear our negs like a badge of Honor or Courage in the face of adversity. Right now your our adversity with your incessant banter. So suck up your pride pick up your lip and what ever else your stepping on with golf shoes and get over it. You were wrong your point wasnt made and you have no rights over anyone else unless they are on YOUR land. Deal with it and life will get much much better for you. Sincerely, Shadow Weaver. PS Yes I am arrogant, Yes, I am Cynical, Yes, I am rude beyond remorse when confronted. But, you either accept me as such or move on in avoidance as I will not change. _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Alicia Eldritch the greatest newbie ever. Join date: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 267 America is hardly a free country these days. 01-03-2005 08:10 From: Prokofy Neva Well, this is why many new and old Americans fled your repressive shores of Europe or Asia : ) People do fight to protect their views in America. I can think of the ferocious lawsuits over the Trump Tower in New York City. Projects become politics and legislators get involved in approving or disapproving. Consumers boycott slumlords and other types of builders they loathe. Neighbourhood groups fight back. There is a robust civil society that fights for that view and often gets it. (emphasis mine) I happen to think that this is precisely what is wrong with America these days. It is a corporate socialism, not a free market. Try to start an unlicensed business and see what I mean. In this kind of quasi-market socialism, whomever is popular or connected gets their way all the time. Here in SL, fuck that. I can build a giant tower of poop on my land, and no one can stop me. If people wanted to neg rate me for that or buy all the land around me and put up insulting signs, that would be their business too. In the end, informal means would sort it all out, and it wouldn't have to come down to anything else. It's the micro-tyrannies that put the boot down the hardest, because they hit us everyday. And in fact, are so subtle that we don't often see how we are being harmed. One of the advantages of SL is that we are starting from a quasi-anarchy, so we can see each step towards oppression as it comes. It's funny that you mention Ulrika before, Prokofy, because what you are advocating in this quote is a smaller, more insidious form of what she does. She's in a way more honest about it, because she doesn't pretend to be a free market advocate. That said, since neither of you are advocating linden interference, nor griefing tactics, (if I remember correctly) I can't really side one way or the other on the main issue. If your customers want to leave, Prokofy, that's between you and them. If you want to convince Pahoa to change her build, good luck. If you start harassing her, or she you, then it has crossed the line into TOS violation and griefing. I certainly don't think there should be any sort of regulation of how people build on their own land. EVER. That said, perhaps one day when there is a proper system of contract verification, people could sell land with restrictive covenants. In that case, it's a different story. _____________________ anyone have a good way to visualize 3d vector fields and surfaces? LSD? "Yeah, there's nothing like literal thirst to put metaphorical thirst into perspective" - Get Your War On "The political leader loves what you could become. It is only you he hates." - Allan Thornton Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-03-2005 08:25 Alicia I appreciate your sentiment in your post. However just one thing I would like to point out. ((Alicia,I'm not being an ass to you in this statment so please dont take it as such as I am just pulling something out of context. Just wanted that clear first.)) From: someone That said, perhaps one day when there is a proper system of contract verification, people could sell land with restrictive covenants. In that case, it's a different story. True it would be a different story as it would no longer be Second Life but Abandoned Life. Second Life would be abandoned very quickly if a master seller could restrict covenents on the land if that happend then woe is the world as the Kill Land Barron Fests would begin. Shadow _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Alicia Eldritch the greatest newbie ever. Join date: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 267 01-03-2005 08:37 Hmm... perhaps. Never thought of it that way. Well, anyway, some sort of contract verification would probably help for business purposes in general. _____________________ anyone have a good way to visualize 3d vector fields and surfaces? LSD? "Yeah, there's nothing like literal thirst to put metaphorical thirst into perspective" - Get Your War On "The political leader loves what you could become. It is only you he hates." - Allan Thornton katykiwi Moonflower Esquirette Join date: 5 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,489 01-03-2005 09:18 From: Selador Cellardoor and one of the fundamental principles of our planning laws is that you do not have a right to a view. As a matter of fact property laws in the United States are based upon this old and well established standard from English Common Law...there is no property right to a view! (even when you pay a premium to get a lot with a view or open space, it's buyer beware!) Ingrid Ingersoll Archived Join date: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 4,601 01-03-2005 10:00 Prokofy, have you considered buying a private island sim? Yes, it's expensive, but in the long run, it might save you a lot of anxiety that you seem to be having about your neighbours. _____________________ http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html Schwanson Schlegel SL's Tokin' Villain Join date: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 2,721 01-03-2005 10:07 From: Ingrid Ingersoll Prokofy, have you considered buying a private island sim? Yes, it's expensive, but in the long run, it might save you a lot of anxiety that you seem to be having about your neighbours. Didn't King Kong live on an island? duh. :p _____________________ Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-03-2005 10:43 Prokofy, I just want to add that I have absolutely nothing against you personally. You present strong viewpoints and that's what you're getting back. It's as simple as that. You couch a lot of your arguments in the language of the opressed... speaking about an existing world order and a kind of oldbie clique, and "you people". In truth, SL has less of that kind of thing than any other MMO in existence. It's one of the things I love the most about Second Life... that the community is so non-judgemental, welcoming, and friendly. SL would stop being that way if we were all of the same mindset as you are. If neg rates were used as a kind of social pressure to elicit conformity we would end up with an adversarial world full of "us vs them" conflicts at every turn. That's what I find so ironic about your point of view. You imply that you are somehow under the thumb of other people's standards, and yet if you had your way, other people would be under the thumb of yours. What makes SL great is creative freedom and a community that mostly cheers on the creative endeavors of others instead of seeking to tear them down. The latter certainly happens, but the former is by far the more prevalent attitude. You've chosen to have an adversarial relationship with the community at large. It wasn't imposed on you. Lordfly is absolutely right in saying that the most effective strategy for creating the kind of environment around your land that you want is patience. It took me over a year to slowly acquire more and more land around my initial small plot. I've owned the same land since my first week in SL almost two years ago. I've had things built next to me that I wished weren't there like a 100 meter tower four feet off the end of my dock, and a dragrace track with cars that revved their engines annoyingly 24/7, but it's far more important to me to be a good neighbor by accepting people's right to do as they please with their land. I'd rather have a good personal relationship with my neighbors than have adversarial relationships. As I've slowly bought up the land around me I've returned it to nature and protected the waterways around me because I happen to like that sort of thing. I don't ever expect my neighbors to match my aesthetic unless that's what they want to do. If you set yourself up with the pressure of some kind of "duty" to make the world bend to your tastes you're going to alienate yourself and you won't enjoy your time in SL as much as you could. I've always thought that some of the most beautiful builds in the world are the ones built by people without any appreciable skill... they might be ugly, inefficient, gaudy, or completely inept... but they're things that the builders put a lot of love and effort into and they're proud of what they've done. I'd rather pat them on the back and offer words of encouragement than belittle them. We both walk away feeling good about ourselves. As for King Kong, I'd have no problem having him as a neighbor. I had Shadow's brilliant (and huge) "Big Red" dragon as a neighbor for quite a long time. It was a bit incongruous next to my naturalistic/modern build. Who cares? I loved it. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 11:15 From: Prokofy Neva In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong? King Kong is wonferful. Starax is a very talented artist. You are so lucky to have such great work nearby, instead of spinning neon cubes. Count your blessings. From: someone All landowners have that right, and a landowner who is commissioning buildings or selling land has the right to ask on behalf of his customers what to expect nearby -- merely what to expect! -- so that buyers can plan accordingly. It shouldn't have to cramp your style to answer "yes, there's a big building planned" or "we don't know but it's likely just these animals." You must be new to SL. Do you realize how often builds and ownership of land changes? The builds near my home and other properties have changed numerous times. All you can do, short of buying a private island, is to be thankful for the good builds, and ride out the bad. You have no rights as far as "what to expect" since there really is no way to know beyond a very short term time. You do your customers a disservice if you tell them to expect anything other than what is there at the moment you're talking to them. Things change in SL, and very often. Of course you have the right to ask politely, but certainly no right to continue to pry if a definite answer isn't forthcoming. And your neighbor certainly has the right to not answer any of your questions. From: someone And while you may believe you have absolute freedom in this game when you buy land, the person next to you who bought land thinks they have freedom, too, and their freedom is encroached by your unbelievable resistance to merely talking over your plans so that others may adjust accordingly. Let me point out again -- that was ALL that was asked of you! No one asked you to remove anything -- they merely asked to be INFORMED so they could MOVE. Once again you talk as if it's your right to know what is going to be built next to you. It isn't. Deal with it. Do you want a yearly calendar of all builds planned for the area? Good luck on that. From: someone Actually, SL's old player base reminds me quite a bit of a commune -- subsidized, self-referential and hostile to newcomers. That's quite a generalization. Do you know all of SL's older players?? Cause I know alot of them and most of them are very helpful, generous and kind to newbs. Of course, most don't care for hostile players or idiots (older and newer), but the same can be said for alot of newer players as well. From: someone Of course not. You have to start somewhere. I view myself as a pioneer trying to push against the tide of helplessness and anger I see in this game over the utter inability to do anything about the ugly build next door. The Lindens aren't going to zone. And players can't really enforce zoning without constant disputes and Linden intervention. So I think there have to be ways of developing alternatives. One of them is to buy a sim -- and even the views on to the next sims -- and ask people to respect the idea of "residential". Might think about a private island. Then you don't have another persons builds within eye sight.Or..build a nice wall of trees, like a wind break, or perhaps a prim mountain with a lovely waterfall... _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 11:31 From: someone strong viewpoints.... the language of the opressed... speaking about an existing world order and a kind of oldbie clique......... SL has less of that kind of thing than any other MMO in existence. ...the community is so non-judgemental, welcoming, and friendly. ...yet if you had your way, other people would be under the thumb of yours. What makes SL great is creative freedom and a community that mostly cheers on the creative endeavors of others instead of seeking to tear them down. ....You've chosen to have an adversarial relationship with the community at large. .... it's far more important to me to be a good neighbor by accepting people's right to do as they please with their land. I'd rather have a good personal relationship with my neighbors than have adversarial relationships. ...Who cares? I loved it. I quote the above solely as a means of illustrating the following point ---- not as a means of denigrating or taking on Chip or anyone else. I agree with Prokofy that there is an established, fairly cliquish, and observably insular "oldbie network" with a measurable bias toward traditonal liberal thought/philosophies. The above quote provides quite a bit of evidence of the lack of self-awareness or blindered view that that group exercises. Having a few alts here, you probably have no clue that I have been on the fringes of a few of the sub-groups that most consider "oldbies". So, it's interesting to see the self-righteous defense of that larger group as a whole... It's astounding the level of the lack of self-awareness evident by some within that community. Whoa now you say.... Korg is just sounding off, you say. Of course he would say that... He's an @#$@#$. Well, Believe it or not... at least one of my alts could be beside you right now and you wouldn't have a clue. (Remote control access to/of another computer is a wonderful thing if you know how to use it properly.) But that's beside the point. Now, not everyone in the "oldbie" group is friends or thinks alike - no one would expect that to be so. Even close friends have their differences of opinions on issues and third parties. But the fact that certain in-groups routinely jump in to close ranks around one another against even a sniff of a perceived threat/insult against one of their own is not only noticeable to those outside the group, it IS something that does concern most of SL. Oldbie status is not something I personally revere and rarely acknowledge - whether here or elsewhere. It only means one registrered somewhere before someone else. Being an oldbie entitle no one to anything - not respect, not special treatment, and certainly not blind adherence to a particular point of view held (even loosely) in common within the group. As for this thread.... go back and reread it. It's a good example of in-group/out-group confrontation. More than he said, she said, this is easily viewable as something that has gotten blown out of its initial proportions as a result of "growth" - in world size, population and perspective. To some extent, the insular little "creative" enclave certain oldbies believe is what this is all about is threatened by that growth... and they are trying to defend and prolong that perspective. To another extent, the commercialism perspective is clashing with the "oldbies"/creative one. Of course there will be friction between those two antithetical perspectives. Prokofy, you obviously knew you would be slammed as soon as you responded. Good for you for having the nads to stand up and say something. Right or wrong, I appreciate people with the balls to take on any established group. As for those apparently aligned against Prokofy, what is really funny to me is hearing certain "artists" deny their interest in the commercial perspective while simultaneously having some of the largest commercial enterprises in SL. I have literally been rolling on the floor laughing at the leaps of rhetoric and logic a number of posters have made. Curmudgeon that I am, it is hard to laugh like this. Please, take pity on me... Siggy Romulus DILLIGAF Join date: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 5,711 The Passion of the Kong! 01-03-2005 11:53 And lo did the Kong fall from the giant tower in Davenport for our sins, only to rise once more from the waters! Bickety bang folks - when ya gonna start lookin round and seeing the signs... Discordianism - tellin ya it's here to stay... Hail Eris (and pass the hotdog buns!) Siggy. _____________________ The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 12:33 From: Korg Stygian I quote the above solely as a means of illustrating the following point ---- not as a means of denigrating or taking on Chip or anyone else. I agree with Prokofy that there is an established, fairly cliquish, and observably insular "oldbie network" with a measurable bias toward traditonal liberal thought/philosophies. The above quote provides quite a bit of evidence of the lack of self-awareness or blindered view that that group exercises. Having a few alts here, you probably have no clue that I have been on the fringes of a few of the sub-groups that most consider "oldbies". So, it's interesting to see the self-righteous defense of that larger group as a whole... It's astounding the level of the lack of self-awareness evident by some within that community. Whoa now you say.... Korg is just sounding off, you say. Of course he would say that... He's an @#$@#$. Well, Believe it or not... at least one of my alts could be beside you right now and you wouldn't have a clue. (Remote control access to/of another computer is a wonderful thing if you know how to use it properly.) But that's beside the point. Now, not everyone in the "oldbie" group is friends or thinks alike - no one would expect that to be so. Even close friends have their differences of opinions on issues and third parties. But the fact that certain in-groups routinely jump in to close ranks around one another against even a sniff of a perceived threat/insult against one of their own is not only noticeable to those outside the group, it IS something that does concern most of SL. Oldbie status is not something I personally revere and rarely acknowledge - whether here or elsewhere. It only means one registrered somewhere before someone else. Being an oldbie entitle no one to anything - not respect, not special treatment, and certainly not blind adherence to a particular point of view held (even loosely) in common within the group. So you are saying that people that have been here a long time, and have gotten to know each other..umm..know each other? Gee..you da Sherlock! Have you also noticed that a few old timers dispise each other?? As for closing ranks, the exact same thing can be said for groups of newer SL firends, or anyone loyal or of the same opinion. If there were others like you Korg (please..no..), and they were friends of yours, and you shared alot of common views, would you stay out of any threads where one was defending him/herself? Or offering an opinion? I very much doubt it. So yes, groups of friends are..well..friends. People that share values and ideals are..umm..in agreement often. And folks that have been around each other longer, tend to know each other better. Not all that hard to figure out eh? But nice try on the sowing seeds of suspicion thing. The "I have alts sneaking around" part was particularly good. Do you work for the CIA too? :p _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-03-2005 12:39 David I opted to Bite my tongue on that one cause it was Korg. oh well Cie Les Vie _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 12:42 From: David Valentino So you are saying that people that have been here a long time, and have gotten to know each other..umm..know each other? Gee..you da Sherlock! Have you also noticed that a few old timers dispise each other?? As for closing ranks, the exact same thing can be said for groups of newer SL firends, or anyone loyal or of the same opinion. If there were others like you Korg (please..no..), and they were friends of yours, and you shared alot of common views, would you stay out of any threads where one was defending him/herself? Or offering an opinion? I very much doubt it. So yes, groups of friends are..well..friends. People that share values and ideals are..umm..in agreement often. And folks that have been around each other longer, tend to know each other better. Not all that hard to figure out eh? But nice try on the sowing seeds of suspicion thing. The "I have alts sneaking around" part was particularly good. Do you work for the CIA too? :p Thanks David. Some of these same thoughts were bouncing around inside my head and I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I was in the Army we had different classes graduating from basic training in sequence. Each successive battery was a few weeks behind the preceding battery. Guess who we ended up mostly hanging out with when we went to the main base and assumed our regular duties? That's right, the people we graduated Basic with. What a shock. Did that mean we had some sort of "good ole boy" system in place? Nope. We still hung out with people from other Basic graduating classes at times and assisted them with their adjustment to regular duty. And of course we would defend one of our friends. It's only natural for those who aren't leading a solitary life, or some sort of martyristic crusade due to skewed perceptions or perhaps a feeling of insecurity. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:11 From: David Valentino So you are saying that people that have been here a long time, and have gotten to know each other..umm..know each other? Gee..you da Sherlock! Have you also noticed that a few old timers dispise each other?? As for closing ranks, the exact same thing can be said for groups of newer SL firends, or anyone loyal or of the same opinion. If there were others like you Korg (please..no..), and they were friends of yours, and you shared alot of common views, would you stay out of any threads where one was defending him/herself? Or offering an opinion? I very much doubt it. So yes, groups of friends are..well..friends. People that share values and ideals are..umm..in agreement often. And folks that have been around each other longer, tend to know each other better. Not all that hard to figure out eh? But nice try on the sowing seeds of suspicion thing. The "I have alts sneaking around" part was particularly good. Do you work for the CIA too? :p Uh... you theoretically CAN read... I suggest you reread my post as you obviously missed the point... Oh wait. You merely RESTATED my point. Dude.. get a grip. As for sowing seeds of suspicion.. I didn't sow any seeds. I stated a fact. You think that what I am doing with alts is something other people are not doing? Think again. It's a virtual world... with virtual realities. What you think you know is all illusion and the people you think you know in this SL - unless you actually watch them type anything AND have met/know them in real life - are not necessarily the people you think they are. As for friends banding together --- there is getting together and there is "ganging up" to defend or attack. I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time. So.... go get some reading lessons, then some logic lessons, then return to your SL/RL whatever. Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-03-2005 13:20 From: Sensual Casanova Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others. Sorry Sens, I guess you can count me ignorant then. :( Right or Wrong, I seem to do this as well. Though I do not limit it to just people I know or am friends with. Hell, I know a gazzillion people in SL. I may like *most* of them, but that doesn't mean I consider them friends. Though I do respect those who are worthy of being respected. My own reasons. At any rate, yes, I too am guilty of becoming defensive from the get go when someone starts the first part of their post with with insults. Hell, even my close friends often get an earful when they do so. I feel this way mainly because I personally understand the not wanting to listen to a person if they have to result to insults the *very first thing they say* in response to a situation. I don't care if you are brand new or ancient.. And yes, even I am guilty of doing so and deserved to not be taken seriously because of it. I'll concede to that. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:20 From: Nolan Nash snip Brought to you by SL's own "Existential Nincompoop"... which leads one to wonder if it was from the perspective of an existentialist of just the ramblings of a nincompoop. I bet you can guess where my money is on this issue. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:30 From: Korg Stygian From: Nolan Nash snipQUOTE] Brought to you by SL's own "Existential Nincompoop"... which leads one to wonder if it was from the perspective of an existentialist of just the ramblings of a nincompoop. I bet you can guess where my money is on this issue. Dude, learn how to read ok? <---- This one is my fave btw, when someone (normally the arrogant type) is frustrated because someone else doesn't agree with them, they pull out this useless device. How utterly banal. Here, let me try: Dude, learn how to use quotes. Dude, learn how to debate. Dude, learn how to use logic. Dude, learn how to make friends instead of lurking with alts. WoW! I feel superior already! This should be published in a handbook for all insecure people to read! This message brought to you by the SL CIA. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:34 From: Korg Stygian .... I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time. Sounds like a personal problem, as you are the only one I hear lamenting this. It couldn't have anything to do with how you conduct yourself could it? _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:40 From: Nolan Nash Dude, learn how to read ok? <---- This one is my fave btw, when someone (normally the arrogant type) is frustrated because someone else doesn't agree with them, they pull out this useless device. How utterly banal. Here, let me try: Dude, learn how to use quotes. Dude, learn how to debate. Dude, learn how to use logic. Dude, learn how to make friends instead of lurking with alts. WoW! I feel superior already! This should be published in a handbook for all insecure people to read! This message brought to you by the SL CIA. ROFLMAO .. please.. you're killing me. C'mon now... you are going to make me split my sides... Take pity on an ol dman and don't make me laugh this hard. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:44 From: Korg Stygian ROFLMAO .. please.. you're killing me. C'mon now... you are going to make me split my sides... Take pity on an ol dman and don't make me laugh this hard. Laughing at examples of your own faulty dialectic is a step in the right direction. :) _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:47 From: Nolan Nash Laughing at examples of your own faulty dialectic is a step in the right direction. :) I was laughing at the self-described nincompoop. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:51 From: Korg Stygian I was laughing at the self-described nincompoop. Oh. I see, you are running out of steam, so now it's time to ride out my own tongue-in-cheek nickname for myself for all it's worth. Have fun entertaining yourself while you avoid the substance of any contrary points. :D _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-03-2005 14:01 Nolan, you’re wise to suggest “waiting it out”. Another friend has suggested it’s better just to make good examples of architecture and put them around SL, then people can begin to understand what’s good. There’s another thread under “building” about the “lexicon of architecture” that takes up these aesthetic and form/function issues for SL, not to impose them, but to make visual experiments to see what "works" and what people like and use versus what is admired by stylists. But this thread actually isn’t about my idea or anybody’s idea of aesthetics being imposed. I'ts about how conflicts emerge and how to solve them. It’s also about large obstructive/performance-reduction/hideous type of build that anybody can agree on. I’m not sure why this is so difficult to get across. I see plenty of builds that don’t float my boat but I don’t negrate the people or even get into a conversation with them. That’s not what this is about – I’m talking about gigantism and obstructionism. To me King Kong – if he happens to be a meter away from my land, which he isn’t! – begins to border on that kind of overly aggressive viewblocker problem but even with him, I haven’t negrated his creator or owner nor have I asked them to move him or do a thing about him. The appearance of King Kong is merely another wake-up call to the Lindens that they've got to think about zoning some residential versus experimental sims or player conflicts will boom. Far from asking to take down King Kong, I’ve a) raised the broader issue of whether he’s appropriate for people seeking residences, so that some other accommodation should be found for them and b) whether the people who put him out there intend to have something equally big and menacing meters away from my property *merely so people can decide to move if they are unhappy*. Anshe is right that people who crusade against land barons style themselves as revolutionaries but they’ve all shopped in the same malls and hung out in the same clubs created by “land barons” so they are hypocrites. Ardith, it’s hardly necessary to “take a step back” to see I’m the target of derision, duh. And your comments about the “mundane, banal” flavor of the homes in my development just make me shrug. I don’t happen to agree with you nor do the people who made or who buy the homes but that’s not what this thread is really about. And the architects in this development don't need this area to be showcased, they have far more fabulous buildings in other sims where they are working and their reputation speaks for itself. If anything, as a newbie in the game and in the role of developing, there's a lot I have to learn about how you subdivide and manage a sim like this and I look forward to learning from my mistakes and rectifying them there and in new projects. Pahoa also used the tactic of slamming the builds in this development and its customers rather than understanding what was at issue – a query about her intentions so that people could move, and the larger issue about what to do about zoning. Maybe you don’t find residential housing tracts that look like RL very aesthetic or appealing, but guess what, people want it. There will be more of them wanting this than King Kong, trust me on this – or at least they’ll visit King Kong like they visit Disney World but they want to live with the picket fence. It would be irresponsible of me to start a residential development, especially one with commons, and not take that into account. I am well aware when you take action, you open yourself up to slams. I’d be interested to see what you would make if you bought a sim and put in not “mundane and banal” but your idea of what is cool. Shadow, once again, your friend Pahoa didn’t just say “no” so that it was understandable to back off and that was that. She slammed my development and my customer with unsubstantiated comments then took her frustrations public to this forum, referring to a barely-transparent “anonymous” neighbor. That *hardly* sounds like the delicate calla lily being "harassed" that you’d like to portray her as, she instead sounds like a very feisty lady able to publicly stick to her guns and probably not in need of all your tilting at windmills. The hectoring tone you’ve adopted is a good display of the self-appointed, know-it-all attitude one finds among this core group of old players referred to here, and I thank you for providing a classic illustration of it. Alicia, we could debate whether there’s corporate socialism in America in another thread, my point there was only that IRL community groups fight back and don’t simply roll over and say “noblesse obligence” and “eminent domain” when Trump or the UN or any large entity tries to put up a tower in their backyard. Once again, I’m not advocating a Nazi building commission or town council that dishes out zoning permits in SL, since I believe top-down player-based zoning would degenerate into precisely the tyranny you describe. I do think that groups of people organized spontaneously, however, might make group purchases of sims, pool their resources, especially their tier, and create some very fine communities for themselves without having to stick one person with tier. The Lindens would enable such community grassroots effort if they could find some way to zone groups of sims as residential versus business or experimental. Ingrid, earlier in the thread we already put to rest the idea that buying a private island sim is a solution. They are too buggy, they’re off the grid – go read all the other threads about island problems to see why no one in their right mind would ever buy a private island sim now and their prices are dropping. And P.S. I don’t have anxiety about neighbours LOL, and in fact King Kong is the least of my problems. It’s just an experiment, in a game, to see if you can more or less secure some views and more or less put down some examples of good residential architecture that people will actually live in. That’s it! Chip, I’m in quest of a democratic, community-wide consensus about what constitutes a big/bad/obstructionist/ugly build and probing whether it is possible to take group action when such events occur. That’s quite different than imposing my own aesthetic. I continue to believe that such a consensus can be found, although the path to it will be difficult. I do cheer on creative endeavors. I’ve spent many months organizing events that provide awards for good architecture, newbie architecture, sculpture, innovative architecture, landscaping/waterfalls, etc. It’s too bad you didn’t see any of this. You’re absolutely right that patience is the best counsel for the problem of a neighbour’s poor design choices and that’s exactly the route I’m following on builds going up that make me unhappy – let them do their thing, and see if it lasts. But I still advocate trying to find solutions to another problem, which isn’t about neighbours’ aesthetics, it’s about the big/bad/ugly build meant to grief, lag, annoy, and there I think more can be done. David, I haven’t told my customers a thing other than that it’s a residential community and that we make the best attempt we can to secure freedom from ugly and laggy builds at least on that sim. Naturally, any one of them could sell out and their lot into a big ugly glowing square. But you have to start somewhere rather than endlessly bitching and that’s exactly what I’m doing. And once again, a person asking to be informed so they can move is hardly a person imposing a “right to know” or a year-long calendar of building notices on the surrounding area so there’s no need to exaggerate. You’re right that I made too sweeping a generalization about all older players, and I thank all those who have taken time as volunteers in live help or at tutorials to help, and for all their kindnesses. I am talking about a certain kind of core group, not all and I should clarify that. Korg, I’m so glad and grateful you had the courage to express your agreement that there is indeed a fairly cliquish and observedly insular oldbie network. I don’t know if their bias is toward traditional liberalism or if their bias is to the faux-liberal, pedestrian pagan hedonism one finds in Internet games, but I do know that they are arch conservatives about letting go the hammerlock they have on SL, and they are willing to send posses out on the forums to hunt and hog-tie anyone who challenges them. You said the oldbies are threatened by the game’s growth and the clash of cultures and that’s exactly what I’ve raised in this and other threads and I am quite aware I’ll be pilloried for it. But all they are doing is killing the messenger. It’s not me who imposed a new and growing demand in SL for quiet residential space free of wacky or ugly builds and it’s not me who set the goal of widening and growing the game so many non-tekkie and not-creative, consumer types begin to come into it. Linden Labs might have been content to keep their game as an eternal small beta test – a laboratory as it’s called – for innovative design and cutting-edge experimental game technology. They could have kept all those tekkies afloat forever on their $500 LL a week and their "incubator" and dwell awards. But instead, they decided to be a game business -- a mass entertainment business. The reason they call them "massive multiplayer games" is because they are, er, massive and multiplayer, not just a few beta testers. They decided to get into the server “virtual estate” business with their land-auction approach and professed desire to increase to a million customers and serve as the WWW of games. So deal with it. I guess to contrast with TSO and other games I’ve seen like ATITD, yes, I’ve never seen such a spoiled and feted inner-core technocratic/creative intelligentsia elite anywhere in my life except perhaps for the Soviet Union LOL. I alternately marvel at the Swedish Stockholm Syndrome I see among long-time players with huge investments in time and money (they never stand up to get better service/servers/game-play mechanics) – and I grow more cynical as I see the various formal and informal reward systems that help keep alive this insular elite. I’m willing to bet that one of the major obstacles LL will face in growth is how to step over or around this hardcore elite which it has itself created. Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:04 From: Nolan Nash Oh. I see, you are running out of steam, so now it's time to ride out my own tongue-in-cheek nickname for myself for all it's worth. Have fun entertaining yourself while you avoid the substance of any contrary points. :D I made my points. You choose not to respond to THEM. As for "tongue in cheek nicknames".... umm.. have you considered mine? If not, do so now. I knew that you could. David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 14:05 From: Korg Stygian Uh... you theoretically CAN read... I suggest you reread my post as you obviously missed the point... Oh wait. You merely RESTATED my point. Dude.. get a grip. I can read quite well thank you. I didn't restate your point, but merely demonstrated that you had none. As for grips, is there anything in particular I should be gripping? From: someone As for sowing seeds of suspicion.. I didn't sow any seeds. I stated a fact. Oh..what facts. I sure didn't see many in your post. But lots of opinions. And you know what they say about opinions... From: someone You think that what I am doing with alts is something other people are not doing? Think again. It's a virtual world... with virtual realities. /GASP! No way. Second Life is virtual and people use alts? Liar!! ;) From: someone What you think you know is all illusion and the people you think you know in this SL - unless you actually watch them type anything AND have met/know them in real life - are not necessarily the people you think they are. Well, since you have no idea what I think I know, then that statement is clearly misinformation and more rhetoric to make yourself sound wise and experienced. *yawns* Guess what, even if you DO meet them in RL, they still might not be the people you think they are. From: someone As for friends banding together --- there is getting together and there is "ganging up" to defend or attack. I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time. Really? So ganging up would be sharing and expressing similar opinions? Or debunking opposing opinions? Not sure what would be the difference in your mind as to ganging up and sharing a viewpoint/opinion. Is there a handbook I can read? And if this is the worst ganging up you've ever seen, all I can say is you must not get out much, either on the internet or in RL. This is very typical of most forums, and actually friendlier than many. And politics and newscasts and general media tend to gang up worse, or at least gang up on more important matters. From: someone So.... go get some reading lessons, then some logic lessons, then return to your SL/RL whatever. Hehe..weak Korg...very very weak. You really should think about that vacation. P.S. And you using your alts to spy, as you imply, is sad and pitiful, but whatever floats your boat. (Poetic sentence eh?) _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Kats Kothari Disturbingly Cute Join date: 14 Aug 2003 Posts: 556 01-03-2005 14:10 From: Prokofy Neva ... We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land. Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would. ... Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate. After finally reading the whole thread, I would also like to share my 2 cents worth. ;) In my personal opinion, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen many builds that could be considered eyesores and they don't bother me as long as the do not cause excessive lag, stream particles unto my land or cause any other annoyance to the sim or unto my land borders. I wouldn't mind seeing a King Kong on my neighbor's land (my tastes differ from that person who said that she wouldn't like to see it). I wouldn't neg rate a build I found "ugly" because I understand how other people (including the creator) could find it beautiful. In fact, I have seen many creations listed on the classifieds and seen people's comments on how beautiful it looks and I personally thought that it was "ugly". That's what individuality is about... we have different views/perspectives as to what beauty entails and we should respect each other's opinions (even if we don't agree with them). This is the same reason why I wouldn't/haven't neg-rated builds that I do not find beautiful and I understand how rating a new player's build negatively while they are experimenting and still learning how to build, could discourage them from learning and moving on to another enviroment. While learning how to build I lived in a giant Moogle, in a pink castle (which I personally wasn't too happy with, but I got many comments from players that found it cute), in a box-shape tower and many other builds that could be considered eyesores, but many players enjoyed them and so did I. One of my concerns with the statements made on this thread deal with what has been said about cliques, favoritism, etc. I acknowledge that there are certain players that stick together, but just because a player is a "newbie" or an "oldie" doesn't mean that they will choose to side with the older players or the newer players. There have been many arguments on the forums in which older players have disagreed on issues (many of them loathe each other), yet we still manage to move on regardless on who sided with who. I can understand how people's friendships can influence people's opinions, since we can judge a situation with how familiar we are with certain players (e.g. I am friends with Francis and if she were to get into an arguement/discussion with another player, I would most likely side with her, not only because of my friendship with her, but because I know what she is capable of). Even though many people have friendships and cliques, they aren't afraid to speak up if they disagree with said friends or cliques and/or if they believe that they are wrong (this has happened a lot in the forums). As for the situation that started this thread, maybe the best solution would be to agree to disagree and use the land tools that have been given to us (banning, muting, etc.) to avoid any further confrontation, if no "happy medium" can be reached. P.S. One final note, the SL Community is ever-changing and some people change their builds as often as they change their avatar's underwear, so there is no guarantee that you will always have a perfect sunset view or a beautiful mansion on your neighbor's land... sometimes we end up with pink castles for a view. ;) _____________________ Maker of many kawaii items: Dolls, huggable plushies, and purses with cute critters. Visit Kats' Kreatures for a better look and feel free to explore! =^_^= Kats' Kreatures Gualala (140,9) "The cat is cryptic, and close to strange things which men cannot see..." - H.P. Lovecraft Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 14:16 From: Prokofy Neva I don’t know if their bias is toward traditional liberalism or if their bias is to the faux-liberal, pedestrian pagan hedonism one finds in Internet games, but I do know that they are arch conservatives about letting go the hammerlock they have on SL, and they are willing to send posses out on the forums to hunt and hog-tie anyone who challenges them. You said the oldbies are threatened by the game’s growth and the clash of cultures and that’s exactly what I’ve raised in this and other threads and I am quite aware I’ll be pilloried for it. It's only as complicated as you make it, and Prokofy, in my opinion, you and Korg are reading into things far too much. I do appreciate that you do not try to demean people and actually debate, although you are very long winded at times and make me read so much! :) I guess I have to ask you if you understand that SL was once a MUCH smaller game with just a few hundred active players and a VERY tiny grid? It only stands to reason that there is a remnant of that old group still in place. Does that mean we control things and strongarm Linden Labs or other players? Not in my mind. The existence of this remnant is unavoidable due to the particular evolution of this online environment. Because you are unhappy about what your neighbors rightfully choose to build on their land and they don't want to honor your request to comply with your desires AND they happen to be oldbies does not mean that there is some ruling aristocracy of olbies conspiring to control the grid. Two of my neihgbors are newer players and I am not thrilled with have my ENTIRE view blocked by boxes, does that mean I can claim there is a conspiracy of newbies to make my life miserable? _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-03-2005 14:26 Interesting points Korg, but I disagree with your central premise. You and prokofy both attribute certain traits of the SL community to some kind of old boy network. We can all agree on "effect" and what's concretely observable... that the community tends to slant towards being liberal and that there are things that have evolved over time to be seen as cultural norms within SL... but we disagree on the "cause." Your theory depends on things that aren't directly observable and are therefore assumptions. Unless you care to be specific about your alt adventures I'm going to discount your claims as a thin attempt to lend credence to your statements without having to qualify them. If people look at players who've been around for a long time as some sort of ego driven clique that shuns newer people then they're bestowing qualities that I don't believe are actually true in the sense that you imply (as in lording over the community). It's a skewed observation based on paranoid assumption. What you attribute to favoritism and exclusivity, I attribute to the limitations of my short term memory. I can only keep so many names in my head and it stands to reason that people who've been around a long time will have worked their way into my long term memory. If you ask me to name a builder, or a tattoo artist, or a scripter, I'm far more likely to pull out a name that I remember than one I don't. There are people who've been here a month or two that are on that list if they've made a strong impression on me. You're definitely on it Korg, hehe. I probably spend more time in world talking to new-ish people than I do interacting with other old timers and my respect for people isn't based on the length of time someone's been around. I can only speak for myself since I'm not a psychic but I imagine it's the same for most "old timers." As for the liberal slant, that's more logically attributed to the liberal slant common to the creative types that SL appeals to and not social pressure. If you polled everyone who's joined in the last month I bet they'd slant liberal so while your observations are legitimate, your assumptions about the causes are pretty flawed. I'm certainly not picking on Prokofy because he's new, or because I leap to the defense of anyone who's been here since Beta. I simply disagree with his point of view, and yours. If there's a consensus among older players about issues like this it's because they've always been issues and we've hashed them out dozens of times already. Don't confuse familiarity with collusion. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:27 From: David Valentino ..you using your alts to spy, as you imply, is sad and pitiful, but whatever floats your boat. You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours... Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on if you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it. You guys are paranoid. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 14:27 From: Korg Stygian I made my points. You choose not to respond to THEM. As for "tongue in cheek nicknames".... umm.. have you considered mine? If not, do so now. I knew that you could. /120/d9/31559/4.html#post327991 I did. I only became mired in your BS once again when you started to become partisanally and pointedly abrasive yet again, after claiming earlier in this thread that you were on niether side. I see a difference in our nicknames to the extent that I don't really think I am a nincompoop and mine is really a play on the pic of Albert sticking his tongue out, you on the other hand seem to think you are curmudgeon, as per your dictionary's definition of course, a definition you failed to ever post suprisingly (or unsuprisingly) enough. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 14:36 From: Korg Stygian You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours... Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on it you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it. You guys are paranoid. We're paranoid, yet you utilize alts to study some imaginary collusive effort by groups and sub-groups? Right, got it. :rolleyes: _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Ingrid Ingersoll Archived Join date: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 4,601 01-03-2005 14:37 From: Prokofy Neva I’ve never seen such a spoiled and feted inner-core technocratic/creative intelligentsia elite anywhere in my life except perhaps for the Soviet Union. I haven't been here that much longer than you have Prokofy, why am I not seeing this? I've met people who you would probably lump into the "fetid inner core" of SL and most often they have been friendly, helpful and all around nice. Some have even become friends of mine. I haven't been to one class ever, everything I learned, I learned from "oldbies" and Toast Bard who landed in SL two weeks before me. I don't get it. _____________________ http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:46 From: Chip Midnight ... Chip.. somewhat intersting points yet you do the same thing you accuse me of - argue based on assumptions. Reveal my alts or be discredited as simply attempting to bolster my own argument without evidence? Nice try but that's kinda faulty logic considering the reason some of us have alts is to act/react differently to the same things/people/situations. Thus, by revealing the alt, one defeats the purpose for having the alt in the first place. If I, as Korg, decide to gender-bend and wear a dress - that's one thing. To say that Korg is also "Joe Schmuckatelly avatar" is something different. You either accept that or you don't. As for oldbies having hashed the liberal philosphy and other things defining the SL community out time and again.... well, isn't that what we are talking about now? The discussion has been reopened and at least a couple of us disagree with the perspective of the "in group" however loose that group might be --- but self-identifying as "oldbies/charter members/whatever" does kinda set up and us/them dichotomy, doesn't it? Add to that the swarm defense in this thread and I think that Prokofy and I are more than justified in saying that a cliquishness DOES exist. Note that I never said that it was wrong, per se, to be cliquish. But that is the sense of numerous responses.... an apparent defense where, in my case at least, I did not attack that cliquishness, merely gave my perspective on it. If anyone feels attacked, I do not take credit for that. I am entitled ot my opinion and I have the right to express it. YMMV. As for spending time here(forum) or in-world talking with people, good for you. Guess what? I am completely different in-world as most people who know me there (except for one specific day) are likely to attest. But, that's not a defense of my actions here - merely a statement that perceptions of and experience with people varies based on the situation. In-world, some of the people I have the biggest problems with here are fine people.. but here a few seen to do as I do - only this time with the cliquishness of mob rule/reaction behind their screennames. As for the cheap psychoanalytic "paranoid" shot.... "I'm going to discount your claims as a thin attempt to lend credence to your statements without having to qualify them..." Pull out a DSM IV/V and then come back and justify it. Otherwise, it's just a hot air accusation, not even a poorly worded argument. That you operate from a different set of core assumptions about people makes your perspective no more valid than anyone else's. My opinion is no more skewed than your own - by your own argument. Agree with me or not... doesn't affect my game. Here in the forums, my "game" is definitely one thing and it's been misinterpreted by many. In-world, I wouldn't care to "come up against" this Korg either - but that's there and this is here. Real life? That's a third "game", one we will all eventually lose at. Beryl Greenacre Big Scaredy-Baby Join date: 24 Jun 2003 Posts: 1,312 01-03-2005 14:47 From: Ingrid Ingersoll I haven't been here that much longer than you have Prokofy, why am I not seeing this? I've met people who you would probably lump into the "fetid inner core" of SL and most often they have been friendly, helpful and all around nice... Heh, there's a big difference between a "feted" and a "fetid" inner core (no doubt I'd fall into the latter group...). :D And yes, there are cliques in SL. However, I think it's a grave overstatement to imply that all the oldbies are in some secret group that is out to demean, debase and de-... well, um, treat newbs crappy. It just ain't so. By the way, Ingrid... make more shoes, please! I love your high heels. :) _____________________ Swell Second Life: Menswear by Beryl Greenacre Miramare 105, 82/ Aqua 192, 112/ Image Reflections Design, Freedom 121, 121 Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:48 From: Nolan Nash I see a difference in our nicknames to the extent that I don't really think I am a nincompoop and mine is really a play on the pic of Albert sticking his tongue out, you on the other hand seem to think you are curmudgeon, as per your dictionary's definition of course, a definition you failed to ever post suprisingly (or unsuprisingly) enough. Did you even bother to read your own drivel before you posted that? Talk about circular argumentation! Damn you are good for a laugh tonight. You really are. I may not have time/the ability to watch Blazing Saddles like I had planned because I am laughing so hard. David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 14:52 From: Korg Stygian You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours... Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on it you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it. You guys are paranoid. I dunno. You're the one that brought up your alts, so you tell me? What would you gain from it? _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:56 From: David Valentino I dunno. You're the one that brought up your alts, so you tell me? What would you gain from it? If you do not already understand or imagine why a person would like to play an alt, I cannot explain it to you. The best I can do is to ask, if your clothes did not get soiled by wearing them each day, would you continue to wear the same outfit or not? If not, why not? /me walks away shaking head in incredulity Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 15:02 From: Korg Stygian Did you even bother to read your own drivel before you posted that? Talk about circular argumentation! Damn you are good for a laugh tonight. You really are. I may not have time/the ability to watch Blazing Saddles like I had planned because I am laughing so hard. No, I don't read. I am blind and I just type. When one fails to convince someone that they are correct, what other path is there than to accuse them of not reading or being able to read ad infintum? I justify my abrasiveness due to my nickname and my RL experiences and age. I see conspiracy everywhere I look. I choose respond to "drivel" because it doesn't carry the "weight" of a "butterfly" and means nothing to me. I am inexplicably driven to irrational arguments claiming cronyism on most issues. People can't possibly be thinking and speaking for themselves. Because they happen to agree with each other, it has to be that they are all in on some grand scheme to subvert the interests of newer players. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/120/d9/31559/6.html

The Most Insincere Form of Flattery: The BBB Steals My Idea of Honorary Consul

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

From my "Honourary Consulate of Titania" installation at the Home & Garden Expo Design Contest in SL in 2019. 

Shorter-than-your hand summary: the Bellisserian FIC did in fact steal my idea of honorary ambassadors (here's the proof below) but it doesn't matter because it's not copyrighted. I called it "honorary consul" in my inworld story because that's more the proper term in my view;  but let's be thankful at least the residents in this RP aren't all Americans, many of whom actually acquired in our virtual world their first experience of something called a "passport" -- and can't find RL countries on maps. At least some of the BBB aren't Americans and have some grasp of international affairs -- I think -- such as to work up models for government and foreign policy to replicate in virtuality (shudder).

I don't want to be one of those people because I'm my own ambassador of my own projects, and so should you be. I think there are better ways to sell premium accounts -- which ultimately is the purpose of this strange RP of a RL government and foreign office. But likely it will be mainly harmless and eventually sink of its own weight. It's worth following so they don't start trampling in your back yard. But remember, there is only one way to stop an exercise in player government engineered by the game company: make your own, and displace it. 

 

Slamming Operation Mainland

So Jezebel Bailey is "no long with" the BBB, and yet the august personages at the BBB still saw fit to leave her permissions on to the comms. I personally wouldn't do that if someone left my business or project, but ok. So Jezebel got on the horn the other day in the BBB Users Group (population 567) and ragged on the Forever Tourist program of Operation Mainland (population 699). I have my differences with OpMainland but generally I think they're a good thing, like I think the BBB passports and travel are a good thing. I'm all for exploring, especially the Mainland. I personally am a solo player and have my own small group Mainland Appreciation Society (population 44), and larger, long-time project, SL Public Land Preserve (population 850, of which about 650 have logged on in the last year), which has many supporters, but I'm not really here to be in the virtual equivalent of my high school government or college newspaper editorial board; for one thing, I don't have the stamina to sit for 12 hours or more a week in interminable play-meetings where nobody pays me.

Just for the record, because you can't find these things out unless you 1) own property in Bellisseria and therefore are eligible to 2) get a BBB passport and 3) get invited into the BBB Users Group if you apply for to host stamp in the passport game, here's Jezebel's note verbale to Operation Mainland:

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents because you can never totally leave the BBB when you love and believe in it as much as I do! The BBB is expanding as it has to to keep everyone happy and enjoying their passports! Just know this, the BBB is accepted and has the LL backing. You will never, ever get sent to a sex club, a shopping mall, or any place not authorized by both the BBB and LL. The BBB offers unique stamps for your enjoyment and fun in finding them in hunts, or from the weekly list that Sun puts out,
Every placement of a dispenser is carefully selected by the owner of the dispenser. No you do not make your own stamps for anywhere you happen to go to. But if you want or think a stamp dispenser could be placed somewhere, either mainland or Belli, drop a not to Sun.
The reason for this little tirade other than saying HI, is because someone thought they might be considered disloyal for going to another site. I didn't know what they were talking about. I thought they were talking about the expansion of the BBB to mainland. So here is what I think!

1. The BBB works with the moles and lindens on placement, both in Mainland and the BBB.
2. You have the most incredibly talented people working almost 24/7 on making sure everyone who is a part of the BBB, enjoy being part of our BBB group,
3. You cannot be disloyal. Just remember WE do not show places on our web page that have not passed all requirements to hold one of our dispensers.
4. If you want a travel list for us, we do not take the our list off of the places search engine. That everyone can access.
5. I LOVE THE BBB AND WHAT WE HAVE ALL CONTRIBUTED TO ITS GROWTH. Also, the moles and Lindens that have assisted with its growth.

With all this dribble passed on to you, my friends, its a free to you, game within a game that keeps on growing. Thank you all for your continued support! (do I sound like a politician yet?)

Safe travels!
Bel

Now, OpMain may have a blog where this is posted, but I only know that it is issued in the group, which I will join now to fetch and leave, because I don't want to be in groups that are like my own groups, I have enough to do. Oh, except the link in the group is no good. Ok, hmm....After clicking like an idiot for 15 minutes I finally found it -- they really need to put "BLOG" on the splash page so that you don't hunt until you find it under "location list" which isn't intuitive at all.

Again, for the record, here is Fionie's Memorandum:

Because I genuinely want to help residents travel the grid, please understand that there should never be any ‘feelings of disloyalty’ for having any kiosk from any other participating passport program. It honestly doesn’t matter to me HOW a resident finds a cool place to visit - just that they do. For location owners, I want you to do everything you can to promote your SecondLife businesses and locations - if that means having every possible kiosk of every type of game on your land, I encourage you to do so! 

Forever Tourist was never created to upset anyone - it was designed to include businesses in a passport style game AND to create community by allowing ANY resident to be able to instantly participate. If you want to understand the specifics of why I created Forever Tourist, I did an in depth video talking about it’s design, what my goals were, and the steps I took to start the process. You can watch it here. 

I have been and will continue to work with the LDPW team to try and find a way to make it easier to grab a stamp on some of these public places by placing a Forever Tourist kiosk. I only want to do this if that means we don’t have to change the rules that we have in place to let everyone participate. I haven’t been able to create a way for this to happen just yet, but conversations have happened with ‘the powers that be’. Don’t worry - I won’t give up. 

(For those who want to deepen their foreign ministry RP, here's a list of terms from the State Department you need to learn.)

It's been interesting to me to see how people who try to suck up to get along with the Lindens and deal with them in partnerships then get burned, jaded, cynical, etc. It's partly because nobody knows history; they ought to read about Clubside Granville.

The old forums archive are a rich depository of history and more people should mine it before the Lindens some day delete it, like they did the townhall transcripts. Oh, the reason I'm not in that thread is because at that particular period in history I was banned from the forums.

In any event, Operational Mainland took the higher road and made a statement setting the record straight about Jezebel's jab -- which I guess was motivated by the fact that somehow within their circles, some people thought getting involved in OpMainland meant "disloyalty" to the BBB (or visa versa). Interestingly, while this was playing out, OpMainland was featured in Destinations and constantly on the splash screen, so at some level, Lindens "want to be fair" and recognize any resident group "doing something positive". Some people are on their own planet or don't want the kiss of death or live in bitter rejection but I've always found that if you want a sustainable project where you are free and not co-opted, you have to play SL without the Lindens as much as you possibly can, given that you still rely on them for things like roads, clean water, and hospitals. Wait, I mean, just the first thing, the roads. Oh, but not in Corsica, where -- oh, never mind.

The FIC is Not a Conspiracy, It's a Report

Fionie Frimon wants to be a Mole, i.e. one of the select contractors of LL with the last name Mole which involves certain privileges but also involves enormous amounts of hard work, especially as they are now tasked not only to build roads and houses, but to be sort of Gentils Organisateurs like Club Med and organize "fun," moderate the forums, and help build community centers launched with two residents' wedding, at which Patch Linden will be best man. That last bit has raised more than one eyebrow among oldbies and several acknowledging, "Hey, Prok, you were right about the FIC."

The FIC (the Feted Inner Core or privileged caste of SL with connections to the Lindens) is not a conspiracy. It's a report. (Read the original thread about the origin of this term.) My critique about the FIC isn't rooted in jealousy because I'm "not a coder or a maker"; I just think there should be demonstrable quality and there isn't always. I think there should be activities that involve a registrational approach -- a set of criteria for a contest or an event, which anyone can apply to and participate in, rather than a discretionary approach -- where you apply, hope you meet the criteria, which can be arbitrarily applied, and then get rejected for reasons that are unknown. In the US, anyone can form a corporation by sending a small fee to an office in Delaware. It's only later, if you fall afoul of the law or don't file taxes, that bureaucrats then focus on you and restrict your activities. In Russia, the theory is the opposite: first, you take an applicant and drag him through 14 offices and grill him and  put him under the scrutiny of everybody from the secret police to the cleaning lady. Then you issue the registration or permit -- but it's on sufferance, if you stop  doing favours for the bureaucrat. Well, different countries have different cultures...

Also I think any FICness should be publicized. I don't know this lovely couple; I personally couldn't marry a man named "Riot Hax" but that's just me. I've sure he's a lovely fellow. My further comments are here. PS no need to put me in the ban list as a) I don't have a tuxedo and while I have a wonderful petite avatar from Fallen Gods, I don't like getting stepped on in big crowds. I'll wait to see the community center after all this lag inducement is over and hopefully there will be freebies.

I imagine -- I hope? -- that this initiative didn't come from the Lindens, but came from the betrothed residents (unless, of course, one or both of them are Lindens themselves lol). And I imagine that the Lindens, keen to build up Bellisseria and get some traction for their new community center in Fantisseria (and more sales) -- especially after the rather botched Trick or Treat pumpkin thing -- decided to accept the request and justify it by publicizing it on the forums so "anyone" can come (if they follow all those elaborate instructions and can fit on a sim meant for 44 people) and say that it's really about opening a civic center "anyone" can use (if they are premium and in Belli, of course).

There Can Only Be One

So Fionie has built her own very ambitious program, populated it and rolled it out successfully, while also managing an abandoned land reclamation business and doing her own building and writing and of course managing her RL jobs and family. But from what I gather, the Lindens -- the Moles -- have not granted her the recognition of having Mole locations within her network, unless she joins the BBB -- merges with them, really, only as a Mainland "honorary consulate" in a sense -- which she doesn't want to do. She is still "in talks" -- just like Bill Burns is now in Moscow with the Russians.

I think for her, the problem with joining the already-blessed BBB-Linden alliance is that you weren't there at the formation, and you will play second fiddle and if anything, hurdles will be devised to make sure you don't disrupt the program by actually joining. I suppose OpMainland can always issue stamps "on the fly" by merely going to a Mole location and issuing one but you know? Through their "DIY Kiosk" system. If I get time, I will try to figure this out and do it for Magellan's Crash in Columbia.  There are a lot of places in SL. You don't need the Mole places to have fun -- and you can have fun visiting them without all the stamp stuff.  "Don't burn down Party committees; build your own." (Jacek Kuron, Solidarnosc).

The Lindens are guided by a concept that they can't cater to "all these groups" (even though there aren't many of them; it's actually a small world; and only a few would pass muster given their usually strict and arbitrary and not always  public criteria, as with the newbie gateway helping centers. I'm not sure the BBB is so wild about such a merger either, but I personally have put stamp machines in both; I travel on both and enjoy the sites, and I don't want to get too deeply into it because I sense it will involve long waits at drafty aerodromes at high elevations without visible rentomatics, waiting for Rick to bring the letter of transit, and sadly concluding "We'll always have Ahern."

The template, of course, is the sailors and Blake.  Read history, please people. And, fast-forwarding from that post in 2009 to 2021, I think I don't have to argue any more (as I used to have to do) that such amalgations that "cross the blood/brain barrier" are about commerce, first and foremost. Sailing brought the Lindens more business, and why not? That's a good thing. It brought the "Lindesidents" in their Linden/resident "Sea of FIC" group WINDFALLS in rentals and sales of land around Blake -- that can't be argued. Was that a good thing? No, because it helped create havens for monopolists charging outrageous prices and in fact suppressing participation in SL. Are there ways to play SL without getting caught up in all this? Yes, just like you don't have to get into the best parties in the Hamptons to have fun. Will the Lindens drop their FICing to ultimately get more sign-ups? No. Not only does Silicon Valley not work that way, high school didn't, either.

What is an Honorary Ambassador?

In any event, that skirmish was last week's news, and now there's today's news, which is the BBB has now formally stolen my idea of "Honourary Consuls", which was part of a story I started in 2019, and which is manifested at a BBB stamp location called "Honorary Consul of Titania". (The "us" is European/Canadian spelling I got used to long ago going to university in Canada and Russia and working for European outfits, but if you don't have enough space, like on a limited stamp template, you drop it). I could start a long explanation about how "Honorary Ambassador" is really a different thing in the UN or OSCE or other multilateral institutional context, like with Wonder Woman. Graham Greene wrote a novel about the other kind of figure, the Honorary Consul. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, you can do what you want in SL and mangle world culture in any direction, who cares.

The "Honorary Ambassador," Bellisseria edition frankly sounds like it is modeled after the Soviet Friendship Society's latest incarnation in modern Russia, Rossotrudnichestvo which is basically the arm of the Russian state that goes out and runs influence ops abroad to recruit assets.

How to explain this for the young? Well, no one has yet proved Michael Cohen was in Prague (but keep in mind that unlike the Bear Castle, where your BBB stamp would prove you were there, and you would need another BBB stamp to prove you were at Eulennest -- Michael Cohen could have gotten a stamp in Italy and flown to Prague and it wouldn't show up) I did find that the then-rep of Rossotrudnichestvo who shows up in the Steele memo did not tell the full truth about his own trips to Prague.

ANYWAY of course the SL version of this is basically just about the Lindens having some trusted comrades who can go and rope in other residents' groups and bring them under control association with Linden projects. Nothing sinister in that! If it leads to rentals/land sales down the road, keep in mind you have to work nights and weekends getting even a Blake Sea business launched -- do you all realize that?

And from their perspective, this kind of roping in is necessary. I was the one saying the other day that the Lindens don't have the equivalent of the one-way propaganda stream Radio Tochka (a rather abominable thing in Belarus which you can't turn off) to beam messages to all or at least some select residents, since people don't read the forums, bat away splash screen announcements, and don't read emails with the word "spooktacular" in the header. You know? So that's all good, again, from their perspective. We're not going to wait for Committees of Correspondence to be formed on every sim or even every continent to deal with the Lindens now, are we.

Honorary Consulate of Titania

I've run this story of Titania and its hapless Honorary Consul M. Carter Blanc of Telehub Ross (as in carte blanche, get it?) for some time now in various forms. It lasted through over 3 years of the Home & Garden Expo design contest participation where I won prizes for "best story"; it then had various sequels on my blog and inworld manifestations, and then it became a place in Bellisseria in Porridge Pot, and then finally it got a BBB stamp.

There's a very low-key "Letters of Transit" game associated with it, which few people play because it's very obscure and hidden and almost analog in nature -- and that's not usually what works in SL where attention spans are miniscule.

Even so, it's a thing, I chisel away at it sometimes and sometimes I get messages from it that there are "3 people" who played it or "0 people" in a row some weeks. It's just one of many things I tinker on, I think it's cool, and actually not so hard, but surprisingly few people who get stamps even bother to go inside a house to get its freebies, let alone play some mini-game within it. Oh, well.

So when I applied for the stamp, I explained some of this to Jezebel Bailey, at that time dealing with the applications. So here's the conversation (and remember kids, it is not a crime to publish chat logs outside the SL servers -- they don't have jurisdiction over other companies' servers in their TOS! In fact, it's a duty, to hold both residents and people in power to account -- that's important in any world. And it's all part of the gorgeous mosaic of SL history.

2021/04/07 19:45] Second Life: Inventory item 'Bellisseria Passport Application 2021 - Prokofy Neva' offered
[2021/04/07 19:46] Prokofy Neva: Hi, here's my passport application. Thanks
[2021/04/08 11:35] Second Life: secondlife:///app/agent/81f1414f-62d6-482a-a0e6-366ba7998661/about is offering friendship.

Would you be my friend?

(By default, you will be able to see each other's online status.)
[2021/04/08 11:35] Second Life: Friendship offer accepted.
[2021/04/08 11:35] Bel (jezebel.bailey): ty
[2021/06/18 15:33] Prokofy Neva: Hi, how do you get the HUD for the extra passport pages when you run out?
[2021/06/18 15:33] Prokofy Neva: or does it automatically deliver to you
[2021/06/18 15:34] Bel (jezebel.bailey): do you need a new hud?
[2021/06/18 15:34] Bel (jezebel.bailey): or another hud
[2021/06/18 15:34] Prokofy Neva: I have the upgraded passport already
[2021/06/18 15:34] Bel (jezebel.bailey): you should have gotten 3 of them named visa
[2021/06/18 15:34] Prokofy Neva: ok let me look
[2021/06/18 15:35] Prokofy Neva: why yes, it helps to search under the word "visa" and not "passport"
[2021/06/18 15:35] Bel (jezebel.bailey): haha that should hold you at this point
[2021/06/18 15:36] Prokofy Neva: yes I'm not excessively traveling
[2021/06/18 15:36] Bel (jezebel.bailey): but we can give more when needed
[2021/06/18 15:36] Prokofy Neva: I do have both vaccine shots but
[2021/06/18 15:37] Bel (jezebel.bailey): if the other person doesnt
[2021/06/18 15:37] Bel (jezebel.bailey): yours is no good
[2021/06/18 15:37] Prokofy Neva: yes I realize
[2021/06/18 15:37] Prokofy Neva: I realize you may start giving out shots soon
[2021/06/18 15:37] Prokofy Neva: I have a rare immune disease in RL but I don't think it applies in SL
[2021/06/18 15:38] Bel (jezebel.bailey): YES thats what we need next time
[2021/06/18 15:38] Bel (jezebel.bailey): next upgrade that when you go to locations for stamps it asks if you have any of the following
[2021/06/18 15:40] Prokofy Neva: you have to have your shots yes
[2021/06/18 15:41] Prokofy Neva: you seem like an important bureaucrat
[2021/06/18 15:41] Bel (jezebel.bailey): and if you reply wrong it denies you the passport
[2021/06/18 15:41] Prokofy Neva: yes
[2021/06/18 15:41] Bel (jezebel.bailey): hahah I shall talk to NOrth
[2021/06/18 15:41] Prokofy Neva: it could be random
[2021/06/18 15:41] Prokofy Neva: if you are important I will send you a thingn
[2021/06/18 15:41] Bel (jezebel.bailey): send away not sure how important I am but I have a bit of pull
[2021/06/18 15:42] Second Life: Inventory item 'Confidential Envelope 2' offered
[2021/06/18 15:42] Prokofy Neva: so this is a Letter of Transit from the Honorary Consulate of Titania
[2021/06/18 15:42] Prokofy Neva: these are rarely issued
[2021/06/18 15:42] Prokofy Neva: and they entitle you to certain goods and services
[2021/06/18 15:43] Prokofy Neva: which you cannot be told about
[2021/06/18 15:43] Prokofy Neva: altho one thing is known publicly which is the Diplomatic Pouch in 3 Bellisseria locations
[2021/06/18 15:43] Prokofy Neva: where you get a gift
[2021/06/18 15:45] Bel (jezebel.bailey): the diplomatic Pouch is that a private thing?
[2021/06/18 15:46] Prokofy Neva: no it's public but only works if you wear the Letter of Transit
[2021/06/18 15:46] Prokofy Neva: which you can only get at certain times
[2021/06/18 15:46] Prokofy Neva: if you think the BBB is bureaucratic, Titania is...glacial
[2021/06/18 15:47] Prokofy Neva: but since the prizes are all things I make, let me say that this isn't what you would call a high volume game
[2021/06/18 15:47] Prokofy Neva: : )
[2021/06/18 15:49] Second Life: Inventory item 'Honorary Consulate of Titania' offered
[2021/06/18 15:49] Bel (jezebel.bailey): would you mind if we used some of your ideas tweaked a little?
[2021/06/18 15:50] Prokofy Neva: well they aren't copyright at the US Bureau of Patents
[2021/06/18 15:52] Prokofy Neva: are you a Linden on your day job?
[2021/06/18 15:58] Bel (jezebel.bailey): hahah yeah but we are pretty careful on the things we use and if its ok its ok, Brat!
[2021/06/18 15:58] Prokofy Neva: well I will denounce you on my blog for shamelessly copying my ideas but let's see I think I had 37 readers yesterday
[2021/06/18 15:59] Prokofy Neva: I noticed that when I posted about a slidehow I had at one of my locations from Xenon Linden some Mole HASTENED to put up a slidehow TOO
[2021/06/18 15:59] Prokofy Neva: so trust me, it will not be the first time in my 17 years of living virtually that someone has copied my ideas and not even credited me
[2021/06/18 15:59] Bel (jezebel.bailey): hey word of mouth is the quickest way to get things out there and bad word of mouth is even faster
[2021/06/18 16:00] Prokofy Neva: We do not have a free press in Second Life
[2021/06/18 16:00] Prokofy Neva: in Bellisseria there are only groups
[2021/06/18 16:00] Prokofy Neva: so I'm sure your capacity to put out bad word of mouth is enormous but honestly, I don't care, I do my thing
[2021/06/18 16:01] Bel (jezebel.bailey): oh we will credit you!
[2021/06/18 16:01] Prokofy Neva: so what is your Linden name?
[2021/06/18 16:01] Bel (jezebel.bailey): when people start bitching about having to do the shots records I will give you all the credit
[2021/06/18 16:01] Bel (jezebel.bailey): I am not a linden I just run the BBB
[2021/06/18 16:02] Prokofy Neva: the Lindens have written in their TOS that they can take any creation of any creator and use it in their PR and have a paid-up perpetual license to do so, and really, that's common
[2021/06/18 16:02] Prokofy Neva: yes sure, you'll give me the credit to pile up more hate on me, that's understood : )
[2021/06/18 16:02] Prokofy Neva: I personally am pro-vaccine but you will find a lot of anti-vaxers in SL so good luck
[2021/06/18 16:02] Bel (jezebel.bailey): well I am not a Linden so I dont steal your stuff
[2021/06/18 16:03] Prokofy Neva: well as I said, my things are not copyrighted or patented, that would cost too much to do in RL
[2021/06/18 16:03] Bel (jezebel.bailey): at least I ask before I do
[2021/06/18 16:03] Bel (jezebel.bailey): yeah it would
[2021/06/18 16:03] Bel (jezebel.bailey): to bad you couldnt pay for it with Lindens
[2021/06/18 16:03] Prokofy Neva: I would think an attempt to do a vaccine like thing, even though it fits perfectly with the passport idea, will get all kinds of static
[2021/06/18 16:03] Prokofy Neva: but you could leave it to the venue owner maybe
[2021/06/18 16:04] Prokofy Neva: then they absorb the grief
[2021/06/18 16:04] Bel (jezebel.bailey): We would
[2021/06/18 16:04] Bel (jezebel.bailey): we would put something like Make sure your records are up to date
[2021/06/18 16:04] Prokofy Neva: hmm would I put this on any of mine? Maybe?
[2021/06/18 16:07] Prokofy Neva: I think there are two basic ingredients that define a virtual world
[2021/06/18 16:07] Prokofy Neva: 1) a sense of place 2) drama
[2021/06/18 16:07] Prokofy Neva: so you get this working for sure
[2021/06/18 16:09] Bel (jezebel.bailey): Absolutely

So fast forward to November 2021, and we find I'm not getting the credit because they didn't choose the obnoxious and controversial thing (vaccinations! whew, what a circus that would be!) but chose the "honorary ambassador" idea (I think this convo makes clear that I would only get credit for bad things that would lead to more hate, right? That would be consistent with past experience lol).

Why do I say "insincere" form of flattery? Because the idea is being stolen in fact without the credit -- but then we knew that -- and of course without me being offered an application to be one of those "ambassadors" or to "be in the room where it happens." But again, I don't want to be one, I'm my own ambassador for my own groups and locations (and so should you!). We can all be happy if the Lindens get more premium accounts, right? It's good for Second Life as a whole, yes?

Yes?

I used to be more confident affirming that premise of "the tide that raises all boats" than I am now, still...

I have to have a chuckle about how these people must not study international affairs in even the most casual way. So in real life, you have "ambassador plenipotentiary" -- that's appointed by a government, the "permanent representative" at the UN -- the US has five of them in New York alone and some poor countries only have a budget for one, in Geneva. Or you have honourary consul -- that is a lesser status usually more informally designated to represent their country's business interests in a city where there isn't already an embassy. So there isn't "honorary ambassador" in the way they are using it (which is more like consul). 

So what happened in recent years for all kinds of reasons, one of which is people don't understand what "honorary consul" is (an archaic term from the British Empire) and confuse it with "consulate general" -- yet another function which gives out passports. So now at the UN, they have "honorary ambassador" AKA "goodwill ambassador" to take on cultural functions on a specific issue, like, let's promote women's empowerment. So then you get this - a debacle around Wonder Woman (yeesh). The "honorary ambassador" or "goodwill ambassador" in the UN context is usually promoting a theme or an event, or a campaign, like "the Millenial Development Goals" as I saw in my 15 years covering the UN for various NGOs.

So they are not going out and recruiting various constituencies of people to "advocate for them in their home country" (in this case Bellisseria, as the newsletter explains). So the "honorary consul" in say, Nizhny Novgorod from America, is trying to drum up business for American companies there (well, at least until one professor of business who had taught there for 20 years was arrested for supposedly not having his visa in order). So ideally, if he is not in jail, he is helping Americans with contacts; he's not trying to find Russians to take back to America to help them develop businesses (and why do that when you have Donald Trump to do that for you -- or in theory, the Russian honorary consul in, say, Miami). Diplomacy is a system of reciprocities based on elaborate international law like the Vienna Conventions and practices; the informal "consul" or "goodwill ambassador" fits into the official structure. It's not one way, as it is in the SL edition -- the Lindens pick some people they like who they think will service as evangelists -- to use the Silicon Valley term borrowed from the Bible -- of their premium account -- those people round up the usual suspects under colour of "representing their interests with the Lindens" -- and then they buy premium.

Of course people argue about this sort of thing in RL --  different countries have different traditions -- and guess what, again, it doesn't matter, because we're in a virtual world and who cares.

With the BBB, we already have confusion generated by their term "Travel Advice" which sounds too much like "Travel Advisory" in real life. The BBB's "Travel Advice" is a list of recommended sites for tourists or businessmen, to promote more travel. The State Department's "Travel Advisory" is the opposite! It's to warn travellers of dangerous conditions. For example the State Department has a grade 4 Travel Advisory about the country Colombia due to COVID, civil wars, and -- as my son and his wife who just went despite these official US government warnings and warnings from their parents -- it has terrible drivers that make New Jersey look like a day at the beach. The first time I saw a "Travel Advice" from the BBB I did a double take -- were these aerodrome operators actually going to blacklist Mainland venues they didn't like? But no, it's ADVICE not ADVISORY -- you're supposed to slum it for an afternoon at the Mainland and get stamps!

How to Get People to Buy More Premium Accounts

So these grand personages in our virtual world will fan out and spread Belli love among non Bellis lol "They will represent and advocate for Bellisseria on the relevant continent. They'll be expected to get close to local residents and also to become their advocate within Bellisseria," as the BBB newsletter says.

Nota bene -- I don't wish to apply for this job and I suspect trying to manage all these "goodwill ambos" will become a burden, like keeping up the persona of the grumpy BBB official, and it will be retired. Maybe those people who always want the Lindens to build a railroad through my land in Grote will get recruited by this thing (land which the Lindens themselves auctioned, which was purchased by a furry, from whom I bought it). But these sorts of volunteer jobs are work, and doing them in a virtual context often leads to burn-out.

If I need to "advocate within Bellisseria" -- where I am a property owner -- I can handle that on my own I think? Or file a ticket with Support? I'm not planning a Trash Can Cuisine picnic with three-legged sack races any time soon in Belli so I don't need any Linden connex.

Ultimately, the Lindens can only justify the "honorary ambassadors" if it leads to more competition with Prokofy's rentals  more premium accounts of people who get homes in Bellisseria. I mean, how could you validate the staff time otherwise? As for the residents who sign up for this, one imagines it will fall closer on the spectrum to the American notion of such a job, involving sending people like Shirley Temple as ambassador to Czech Republic for a political favour because she donated to the presidential campaign, not sending highly trained British cadres with languages and years in foreign posts, or sending Russian officials abroad who are extremely loyal and now need to be rewarded for their service to the Motherland. 

I'm hazy on the part where these ambos "advocate" for say, Mainland customers of Linden Lab who are in, say, railroad groups that grew up around the old SLRR, "in Bellisseria". How does that work? They get these old furries to drop their grumbling about different guages and ride the rails in Belli? PS they need more than two rez areas to build up usage of that RR, and they need to overcome the tech fussing and put it in obviously places like Camp Sandwich and Ramstein Forest or whatever those places are called. BTW, if you are in Randelshtam, or whatsis, which has the great zip ride, the Honorary Consul of Titania is right behind it so come get a stamp.

I imagine that isn't going to work with that constituency. Or say, they go to one of these elaborate old elven communities or centaur havens like Rose Haven and get them to buy into Fantisseria, which is mainly norms who just put out some witch stuff now and then, not fullblown RP (and that's a good thing). Nuh-uh.

Really, the puzzle for the Lindens is this, and I feel for them: how to get real people and not yet another alt of GhostofaGhost Ghostly -- or Prokofy's alts, for that matter -- to pony up $11.99/mo or $99/annualized. 

The fact that the Lindens now send the Moles to moderate the forums (!!!) instead of using their actual talents building and scripting lets us know that the Lindens are meddling experimenting in the Metaverse again.

Showing Up

I guess they will have to iron out these details but I think as Woody Allen said, 99 percent of life is just showing up (but you don't want him to show up). I think some people wouldn't want Lindens at their wedding nor would they want to be strung into helping the business of some Belli House Beautiful matron who makes house add-ons. As the earliest Lindens used to say: "Lindens don't scale." Hence, the birth of the Moles, who scale better because you can pay Ukrainians $10/hour and it will seem like a lot of money. But the job is big and Moles don't scale ultimately, either, plus, after you recruited and trained all these people and you are done (for now) rolling out Belli homes, what can you do with them? (Oh, I know! have them moderate the forums!).

So who can you have scale? The FIC, the trustees, the worthies, the people who aren't even like Ukrainians and don't even need $10/hour, although the prospect of having their DJ business pump up could be attractive.

I think it's important to remember that many, many people bought premiums and joined Bellisseria, and not just the old FIC and their 10 alts each. It's a good thing for new people. And the lion's share of these people are not in the 120 or so Bellisseria groups, and not only because they said bad words and got evicted. The overwhelming majority of the "citizens of Bellisseria" did NOT put out the Moles pumpkin Trick or Treat buckets. And that's actually the hope of this Trumansville -- that it will live and thrive on its own terms, without the "help" of insider residents and their Linden/Moles.

 

Update: I tried my idea of using the Operation Mainland DIY Kiosk, which you put on your head, to record a Linden site (in this case Magellan's Crash). I took the picture, clicked on the box -- but oops, it doesn't work because scripts are turned off for "everyone" at these Linden sites. So I stood on my land adjacent to it, to get it to work. Not very satisfactory as there won't always be resident land you can stand on with scripts turned on for "everyone" near Linden sites, either. The Lindens make it hard to bookmark many of their "newer" sites in Nautilus, Corsica etc because they merely call it "Protected Land" and its name doesn't save on a landmark. You have to make the landmark and right on the spot, rename it to the Linden name of the place, or your own name, or a sim name, to find it again. They do make it hard! 

PS Notice I didn't get into a discussion about how the BBB, which is basically the same thing as the core founders of Campbell Community (it took me awhile to figure that out), may not be the best "ambassadors" to be sending out to community groups to recruit them to Bellisseria/premium accounts given how they and their land baron of choice just treated the "hinterland" residents who supported their community and even some of their core -- by putting all the easements and roads to sale in large batches for low prices when their land baron Maecenas found his business wasn't doing so well and had to shorten sail. Unsuspecting residents were lured into Campbell to buy nicely landscaped parcels in a planned community on the open market in Mainland for 0.4/m -- a rare occurrence on Mainland. Then a few days later, the easements and roads all went to sale -- got bought by various people -- got abandoned -- leaving these sections in a plight something like Pleasantville in the Twilight Zone with Anthony Fremont. And here we all are. But this is for another post and another day. 

PPS It occurred to me -- I should have realized this earlier! -- that this particular FICing with the Hax-Anatine nuptials is to keep up with the Jones in the Metaverse. Recently, Roblox made new people-like skins for their blocky kids that look like Legos. AND they announced that you cannot have partners, weddings -- you know, sex -- in their angular world. Makes sense, because it's mainly for children.  No politics, either -- but that would have been harder for Patch Linden to fete -- no politics are allowed in Belli or the forums, although tacitly conceded inworld on the Mainland and on private islands -- there are still Trump lawn signs all over the Mainland and various socialist and anarchist and even communist projects, one of which harasses me routinely in Marietta at my anti-communist memorial.

The Lindens want to show with a high-profile society wedding also launching the community center that you CAN get married in SL (although not everyone is going to get a company representative as a best man, but most people won't care about that part).

I don't know the estimated share of the economy that weddings possess but it's a very big business. Not everyone wants to get e-married but some of the content produced for weddings (like Atelier's new items at Anthem) could be purchased for any occasion, especially bouquets. Many people feature their wedding in their picks as the highlight of their virtual lives, just as in real life.

The Feigned Disdain of Gatchas and the Real Shocking Effect on the Economy

My fake "Patcha Machines," named for the announcer of a deeply devastating policy, which only sell Linden Library flamingos for a $1 and nothing else, and cannot be filled, or which give away only flamingos and cannot be filled. On sale at Flamingo Court Garage and my shop Shaman's Hut in Tofalar.

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualator

If you need a short form of this long blog, go to my Twitter thread.

I believe, based on my experience since gatchas were introduced in 2012, that we will see the worst economic downturn we have ever seen in our virtual lives, and the further stratification and atomization of the SL society as it sorts into deeply divided classes of haves and have-nots. Past economic crises such as GOM, the ban of third-party currency sellers, VAT, island price hikes, Copybot, etc. will pale in comparison. Gatcha evolved to address inequities in SL and RL that involve the need for unskilled people to have a way to enter the economy and prosper enough to pay their virtual-life costs. Without that need, so hard felt in a world that rapidly becomes all about the very top designers and coders who can make the best content, or the very top land dealers who can hold tier in the tens of thousands of dollars, there isn't a world. There really isn't. 

I never say that SL will end or be destroyed by this or that event or corporate decision, but I do say that it might be irreparably harmed, and what the real harm is done to its role as a norm-setter for the Metaverse, a role most of the big dogs thinking they are going to build one don't even realize, and which will disappear like rare orchids in an axed forest, taking a long time to reappear.

This poll of SHamlet's isn't asking the right questions, and sorry, but Tyche, who knows a great deal about sim attrition is not making a valid comparison. Gambling was not located at every store, in every home; gambling didn't have huge special events for merchants and Linden-blessed shopping malls. Unlike ubiquitous gatcha machines, gambling machines were only on a few sims, or had a few machines here and there by comparison.  Not everyone gambled; it was a distinct minority. But practically everyone has either pulled a gatcha from a machine or been gifted one or purchased one in the secondary market. There is simply no comparison at all.

And gatchas are not merely expressed in "sims retired" as an economic marker. It's not something you measure only by seeing how many merchants have to close their stores and dump islands or homesteads. You have to see it as far, far more dislocating as people who re-sold gatchas, even if only on the MP, have to tier down as well and more important, lose their purchasing power in the economy and any way to enter the economy at all, especially in poor countries and especially in countries so poor they don't have credit cards that are accepted by LL.

(Note: I don't ever post on Shamlet's blog and call him by that nickname ever since his hate campaign against me for criticizing his then-employer (he was a paid LL blogger for years) and his requirement that I must put my RL name to post, a demand he doesn't place on other actual vitriolic writers, but only on me, in the belief this will "get me to behave". In fact, unlike so many I link my SL and RL names easily found in Google. But I don't cross the street to create griefing vectors for myself signing my name at Hate Central in his comments. Hamlet is not really in SL. He writes about a variety of worlds, whoever pays him, and does advertorials essentially. Go and argue with him if you like, but he is not a source of real knowledge and wisdom on this subject.)

I think you can learn most about this from straight news reporters like SLNewser which will at least report the news from the ground up, and not from the company down, like so many SL blogs, although they are not intended as a source of critical opinion. There is no more Second Life Herald or even Clickable Culture as there were in the old days of past economic disasters, and I realized the other day that whereas once, when I was banned for speech which is legitimate, for corporate reasons, there was a littler coterie of people inworld and in RL who could place some pressure on the Lab for this authoritarian behaviour -- professors, journalists, virtual world developers and some creative people and land barons inworld -- now most are gone. I don't like the feeling that I could wake up and fine my account locked "for any reason or no reason" now but it's the reality we all live with.

I had a long talk with Bixyl Shuftan, editor of SLNewser, this evening who is the only person I have heard in three days to come straight to the point, without any bullshit, without any misleading crap:

[19:33] Prokofy Neva: what's your take on the gatcha thing
[19:33] Bixyl Shuftan: Well, I do wonder, why 30 days.
[19:34] Bixyl Shuftan: I haven't heard of any complaints to the Lab by any government.

ROLE OF RAJ DATE?

Bingo. There aren't any. Their perception of the regulatory environment is just that, their perception, largely a political view, in my view, shaped by one of the new owners, Raj Date,  Special Advisor for the US Consumer Financial Protection Burea, formerly of the US Treasury Department.

That is, unlike past owners, who were programmers and engineers and start-up kings as well as big game or media company leaders, this fellow is a combination of programmer and liberal lawyer which I always find deadly -- "code-as-law" and law-faring and not really the rule of law. He is a protegee of socialist-leaning Elizabeth Warren and was the first official appointed to her brainchild:

Raj was the first-ever Deputy Director of the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). As the Bureau’s second-ranking official, he helped steward the CFPB’s strategy, its operations, and its policy agenda. He also served on the senior staff committee of the Financial Stability Oversight Council, and as a statutory deputy to the FDIC Board.

This is pure speculation on my part as he has not said word one, but just my feel of this situation I have been watching with our new owners and our old Lindens.

Am I the only one who wonders whether, if Ebbe were alive today, we would be having this policy as harsh as we are having it -- or at all?

Note that what's most likely operative here is that Raj feels he is protecting consumers not by protecting the livelihoods of legions of poor people in SL who make and re-sell gatchas, and thereby setting the tone and the legal basis for the Metaverse (I doubt he is barely aware of that), but he is protecting imaginary consumers that he thinks are harmed by what he sees as predatory gambling. No doubt he thinks this is a "Better World". Even if Raj did not initiate this move, he enabled or heeded lawyers or some other unknown leadership or staff who did initiate it, and did not use his power to stop it.

NO, GATCHAS ARE NOT 'LIKE' LOOTBOXES, NOT AT ALL

NO, THERE IS NO LAW ON GATCHAS IN THE US, NO FEDERAL LAW THAT APPLIES,

AND THE CALIFORNIA LAW HAS NOT BEEN SUCCESSFULLY PROSECUTED

There is a HUGE difference between a giant, predatory game company like EA.com bilking little children using their parents' credit cards to buy "lootboxes" to achieve progress in a game, and what we have in SL. Here's where the differences are:

o there are no children in SL

o the company does not run the gatchas or gain from them, except in a fee for currency purchase and cash-out to US dollars and a tax on sales of 10% on the Marketplace. 

o the gatchas are created by designers, most of whom are not RL famous or RL wealthy; many of whom are in Eastern Europe or Latin America or South Asia, and make a living of anywhere from US $250 to $1000 per month -- hardly the stuff of predation.

o MOST IMPORTANTLY, gatchas are resold, unlike some gaming company lootboxes as a way for ordinary, unskilled people to participate in the economy of a virtual world and pay their own expenses there or in RL as well

o there is no game and therefore no gameplay.

Therefore the attitude LL should have taken  was an adversarial one, referencing Apple's and Google's successful rebuttal of lawsuits bought against them motivated by children being victims of game companies and be unable to advance in those games, but are about adult users who create content that is resold by other adults who then pay for RL expenses or virtual expenses; the random element is merely the glue to make it stick, and not the most important element. Most pulls are 20 cents to 40 cents; the "$9" incorrectly cited now from the tech media could be a reference to the fatpacks of the entire sets on no-transfer, which often sell for US $10.

Again, there is no federal law as such on lootboxes; the California gambling law has just been successfully challenged by both Apple and Google in response to lawsuits by angry parents of children who bought lootboxes. People in the magisterial legal systems of Europe and Asia just don't grasp that laws on the books don't self-execute or merely get literally applied and can't be expected to affect people merely by their existence or putative appearance. In the US, a common-law system, the judge interprets law in light of precedent and the Constitution and makes a ruling, and the body of such rulings constitutes the law. There is more adversarial defense than there is in the magisterial systems. Raj Date surely knows this, but did not likely contemplate it in this context. This difference in how law is perceived and how it works is the hardest thing for the uneducated myrmidons on the forums to grasp or admit but it's worth flagging. No judge yet ruled that lootboxes=SL gatchas. That matters. There isn't even a guidance or a prosecutorial warning that we know of. Therefore, the posture should be, as a State Department official I knew once said about his work in Belarus:

"Better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission."

[19:36] Prokofy Neva: EA.com may have had to pay a fine, but those big dogs shook off the case because the judge ruled there was no damage and no standing
[19:36] Prokofy Neva: so why in that actual climate is LL jumping the gun?

All of this is worth mentioning and arguing about and trying to educate people about although we are dealing with a force majeure and a fait accompli and are -- to put it in the SL Herald French related to the GOM years ago -- phuqued.  Yes, none of this matters, as the Lab has spoken and here we all are, from their lips to the Merciless God Autoreturn's ears. But to the extent that it might be MITIGATED and even REVERSED likely in some OTHER WORLD or even THIS ONE, it has to be spelled out.

It's highly unlikely it will ever be reversed, however, given the heavy cultural war going on now over the act of paying US 20 cents and getting an armchair commons, if not the fireplace rare, valued at 50 cents -- acts which helped sustain the livelihoods of designers and scripters and the livelihoods and virtual expenses of ordinary, unskilled people.  "Lost Wages" of gambling does not work with the same dynamic.

Yes, those are the figures actually involved.

ANTI-GATCHA CULTURE WAR

The society of Second Life, such as it is, is a strange mixture of American Calvinists and Puritans (even BDSM queens come from this anti-commerce culture with a belief that gains not from hard work are illicit) along with American pioneer destructiveness; then European socialism and even communism; Asian socialism and even communism; Latin American authoritarianism and latifundista criminality. In concentrated form, sometimes the worst features of every culture are manifested when many different cultures come together and have no grounds for cooperation, as the platform itself sets up antagonisms in 100 ways.

I'm seeing an AWFUL LOT of people announcing snarkily that they "never" liked gatchas; that they are "predatory" and even "evil"; that they didn't understand them or never played them; that they played them but really didn't like them. And here's where I come in like Claude Raines and say, "Your winnings, sir."  Because most people indeed play gatchas; played them a lot; spent a lot of money on them; liked them; resented them; but their claim now that they "seldom" played them or "never really liked them" are not credible. Pan around the houses in Bellisseria, and there's a gatcha in every one, maybe an old AF dress form (now retired and rare!) or the latest Bee Cauldron rug or knick-knack as well -- they are definitely there. You would be able to immediately land at the K-9 or Epiphany or Equal events on the first and second days without trouble if "nobody" bought them because gatcha machines were often the highlight of these events. Gatchas permeate every square inch of SL. There would not be nearly a million of them for sale on the MP if there were really all these people who "really didn't like them". 

And to some extent, I'm no different in noting that in the last 4-5 months since Fantasy Faire ended, I've been "off" gatchas and switched to original art works. Read my Twitter feed to see my dismay at Epiphany consisting of top designers with...teacups stacked on a toilet (sigh) and a racoon by a garbage can. And that was the well-made stuff.  To be fair, after this announcement, I went back to an empty Epiphany and played Black Sand's highly unique national table clutter gatcha from different countries which is very fine, and random matter, also very well made, although merely yet another cabinet of curiosities of which I have a hundred.

More on that another time. But I'm at least honest enough to say that only a few weeks ago, there was a who what gatcha at Japonica, I believe. I was fortunate to win the rare train on it and some lights right away. I have long been wanting to put an actual train at the train station I have with my Mt. Fear build in Atis, a tribute to a RL Japanese sacred place. This shiny and well lit and well made train -- typical classy item from who what -- was perfect, I tried it in my office first to see if it was too big, put it back in inventory and forget about it for a bit; the rest of the gatcha was not inspiring. That is the lanterns were very nice, but like a lot of gatchas, there were too many of them merely re-textured. The seats and benches looked like they might only go with the train or station; I already had a station and didn't want to replace it with this one which didn't have the look I wanted. So I was glad I won the rare I wanted early on, a few of the commons, and let's call it a day. And remember that while everybody complains about getting too many commons, some ignorant types even harass gatcha creators over their failure to get a rare, but in most cases, what this sales mechanism is about is a) livelihood for the creator b) cheap products for me to use in my business or home.

Then, a few days later, trying to finish this project so it wouldn't join the growing list of the unfinished, I couldn't find it in inventory, and I went crazy, looking all over it, and thinking I must have deleted it or suffered the usual loss of inventory you often do in SL. So now comes the gatcha crazy part of the story, which I had congratulated myself on avoiding just a few days before. So I went to Japonica and played this gatcha...and played...and won three rare stations I didn't need...and a bunch of lanterns that were of little resale value...and didn't get the train. It wasn't for sale on the MP, either -- of course I always check first before ever dropping a dime in a gatcha machine. Boy was I vexed. I now had one of those stories of spending like US $20 on a gatcha and not even having a lousy t-shirt, but dozens of glowy lanterns no one would buy even for 10L, I know how this works. I then recalled that the train came in a bundle, it had a physics part. I looked for bundles -- couldn't find it. I tried searching under "physics" and "train" -- nothing. Finally days later I stumbled on it under "collision" and mercifully put it out, with some of the many lanterns; I sold a few lanterns for a song on the MP; I put the rest in gift givers. Typical gatcha story, and this from me, who says I left gatchas month ago. So let's not be children here.

FORUMS BITCHES ARE NO DOGS IN THIS HUNT

Most of the commentary on the forums comes from people who DO NOT have significant businesses in SL, and in many cases are resentful that their old businesses that USED TO make money were wiped out by the change to mesh or other upheavals and therefore won't miss an opportunity to harass people rightfully complaining and gloat even viciously. While some might think it's a time to acknowledge that an offensive persona like Drayke was right when he began vociferously banging on everybody about the impending lootbox like doom in SL, but he didn't do it for good reasons. He's one of the failures, forced to retreat from his one-great furry RP sim; he's one of those Boys' Own types who likes war games and Roblox chases and easy building and thinks SL should be like Roblox and for him, like other sour personalities on the forums, his actual game is harassing people there who actually try to do something inworld and work around the many difficulties in SL. You sometimes wonder if characters like this are invented and deployed by the company itself, but he is so predictably stupid and obnoxious that I actually think he's authentic. I want to put more of this on the record when I get back to the forums, but for now, I want to study the effect on the economy.

MY LITTLE WORLD OF 60 SIMS

I can only judge from my own little world of sims in my little rentals, and yes, they are little, numbering 14 but spread out over more than 55, some of which is the land preserve with many mainly cheap Mainland rentals of as low as 25L for a little skybox or 50L for a cabin or 100L for a skybox or camping, with only one private island and one homestead. There are Mainland rentals and sales with dozens or hundreds of sims and of course private island dealership with thousands, and we seldom hear what they know and are thinking. SL is a closed society in that regard, like Russia or China or an American company town in the 1900s (or for that matter, in the 2000s, with an Amazon warehouse and trailer park for Nomads).  There is no independent media that can withstand the threat of bans on the forums or inworld for investigation; no reporter can mention any ill-doer by name on the forums; chat cannot be copied and published on the forums or inworld; people fear reprisals and won't talk, etc. There's also no independent judiciary to settle resident-to-resident disputes or disputes with LL, which would yield reams of useful information for the economy, not even those few that used to be doled out before 2007 as to how many avatars spent Lindens in categories ranging from $1 to $5000. So I have only my own stories, anecdotes, and trying to read signals from the environment.

READING SIGNALS FROM THE ENVIRONMENT

o First and foremost, the fear and despair, often behind brave words about trying to adapt, that I am hearing from gatcha makers lets me know that this crisis is way more severe than the GOM and later the virtual currency exchange closures; the closing of the banks and stock exchanges; the change to mesh; Viewer 2.0; VAT; Copybot -- you name it, there have been numerous upheavals over the years with striking losses (sculpty and prim builders of the highest excellent driven out of the world completely not merely for losing business, but because of a campaign of shaming and goading led by Linden Lab at the time that made them the enemy).  This hurts more, because there is a greater loss -- gatchas make for real-life livings for MORE PEOPLE than used to be the case in the days of Aimee Weber and her underwear which were about, as one very perceptive woman once said to me, "making geeky Linden women feel pretty" (and I could add, making MTF transgenders feel pretty as well) and Blue and his expensive jewelry or FlipperPA and his lovely life JennyFUR who sold...whatever it was that they sold. And eyeglasses, from one of the most vicious characters in SL, likely an alt, Ms. Samiam.

ABILITY OF NON-SKILLED TO PARTICIPATE IN ECONOMY, ESPECIALLY WOMEN

REAL ECONOMIC ACTIVITY BY REAL PEOPLE

o Even more relevantly, this policy hits on the livelihoods and cost-reductions of ordinary people without skills, who had a way to enter the economy with the ability to collect gatchas, flip them for those who were making sets, or collecting sets and sell them on the MP for a lot of money, especially in the days before the fatpacks by creators themselves. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to have ways for people to enter the economy by buying and selling. They need to be able to exit the economy as well by selling their furniture and having liquidity, as they also need land liquidity. Gatchas gave this to them. Gatchas spread the gospel of mesh that LL and Draxtor wanted to spread, with rather harsh force at the time, and I never heard them complaining all this time about "predatory machines," when gatchas enabled mesh items in every home and club indeed converted a reluctant population with prim and sculpty inventory. 

There are more wives in America than you'd like to admit whose husbands do not like them using the joint credit card on a virtual world; who don't have their own discretionary credit card or source of income. There are more people than you can concede who have families or churches who criticize their involvement with what seems like a den of iniquity with its unwed sex, dancing, gambling, and shopping. 

So gatchas enabled women especially to acquire assets and sell them. People might think I'm dramatic in my statement that was among the content deleted and serving as the basis for a 3-day ban, when I say gatchas kept women from sex work, but I am not kidding. I see tenants living in both very cheap and more expensive rentals who dole out their dancing Lindens into rentals by the hour, or day, not week. Some are in sex work and some are proud of this as it has given them economic and cultural freedom in countries that lack this around the world; some would rather do more creative things than place their avatar in an "AFK cafe", which might seem rather easy work, but is quite degrading.  Many many more are in relationships with sugar daddies or doms who provide them income but for a price -- sex, and submission. The BDSM lifestyle in its hardcore (Gorean) and soft (fantasy) forms is very widespread in SL. If you are forced to get money for your "look," your home, your shopping, your socializing by staying with someone, male or female, who pays for it in exchange for your having sex or other forms of submission, how are you not really a sex worker? 

And I see that when gatcha sales, land sales, even a little low-end creativity enable people to move out and have their own lives, lives of creativity and socializing.

How do I know this? Because I literally watch these cycles play out over and over! A tenant, especially women, especially those in poor countries and minorities, but not always, establish themselves solo in a rental, and have partners come on their terms; they work at jobs in SL or sell breedables or gatchas for their rent and clothing (which is way more expensive); then times are hard in RL and they move back in with the boyfriend, who has an enormous dungeon or fantasy RP sim or simply an island condo on those flat, ugly homesteads with beat-up sand cut up into 16 pieces.  They disappear from my groups...then they wander back. A couple lives sometimes happily for years. Then often it is the male whose eyes wander and who cheats, sometimes by getting another one of my rentals without his original partner's knowledge. Breakups follow inevitably, creating two rentals. You would think that makes me if anything eager for such adverse events but it doesn't at all. For one, there aren't THAT many. For two, people who are happy with partners and friends simply last longer in rentals than those who aren't, so we should care about how people can stay happy. Sometimes I see my tenants' other rentals, in either cheaper or way more expensive operations of competitors, and it's normal for people often to keep multiple properties, multiple alts, multiple lives. Then they collide sometimes. Some people drift off to the latest Belli home...then drift back, they're out of prims. 

People move up and down to bigger and smaller rentals, depending on RL and SL upheavals, but the common substrate to all this is: 1) their ability to buy and sell gatchas to decorate homes cheaply, dress avatars cheaply, and sell the leftovers, along with their breedables, to pay for more shopping or rent; 2) weekend sales 3) social networks of both partners and friends who can house the homeless and give gifts.

Forums mavens are snarkily telling people in a sense to "learn to code" -- "learn Blender" or "stop relying on gatchas" one particularly odious fellow named Da5id Weatherwax, himself an admitted business failure with the turn to mesh, claims that the "house" -- the creator -- set the odds on gatchas to make more than what their actual creation was worth (not true!) and that they've now been rightly exposed and should slink away.

Gatcha creators make anywhere from 300 euros to US $1000 on the average as I've been discovering by asking them (have you?), not the tens of thousands a month that non-gatcha creators like Apple Fall make or gadget makers like Casper who is a monopolist in the vendor and TP space. Nobody has disdain for them. Why disdain for a Polish designer who maybe pulls in $500 actually, after his tier, and given that events come every other month, can't expect to live only on this gig.

Those in a position to investigate this like Shamlet don't bother asking people what they make and seeking a wide field of replies. They deserve every penny and are rightly paid and can't expect to earn more outside of gatchas.

The Linden vision seldom looks at these "soft" parts of the economy and tends to look more at hard forms of electronic taxation at the LindEx or Marketplace, and has always seen the top creators, the most skilled who are both their peers and even their contractors and sometimes even their own employees -- the people I dubbed the "Feted Inner Core" or "FIC" -- as the drivers of the economy. Lelutka with $5000 mesh bodies and Contraption with $5000 packs or Hisa or Cain Maven with $3000 or even $12,999 homes will carry the economy in this view as the top tier, most extensive creators whose wares people, even poor people, are willing to buy, paying for it by running up credit cards or working as dancers or bouncers in the virtual economy.

The next tier of somewhat less expensive houses and avatar accessories may or may not rely on gatcha, but most have the extensive businesses that will enable them to do so. It's more the mid-level and low-tier of merchants to made gatchas out of full-perm models on the MP, or even their own mesh, but who counted on legions of people buying a lot of little cats or ottomans or candles in cages for 50L in the hopes that the rare skybox or adult bed would also be acquired. And that's fine. That's the economy. The economy exists this way with a funny thing called "gatchas" like a gumball machine on steroids because of OTHER dislocations and difficulties too numerous to mention, but should be highlighted:

o purchase of SLexchange from a resident, and introduction of 10% tax;

o the end of the GOM, then later the closure of all third-party currencies;

o introduction of point-to-point teleportation and the killing of telehubs, which meant lucrative malls around them;

o increase in cash-out fees;

o increase in prims, and some lowering of tier, but not more over time, and the promise of cheaper sims that yes indeed was implied by Lindens in office hours was in fact a more expensive world with the move to the cloud, making the company feel squeezed and needing to cut other costs

o breakdown of search/places without repair for 9 months, and constant malfunctions on the Marketplace.

AN ASIDE ON TELEHUBS

I was a big supporter of telehubs because the provided a democratization of an artisans' economy fiercely held by oldbies in remote sims far from the growing green tip of the world when SL was expanded weekly with new full-sim auctions. While the rent was steep, anyone willing to pay it could enter business, like me, a newcomer with a tiny rentals and sales operation. I didn't have to try to curry favour with the old landowner and artisan class to get a corner on their RP sim or colour-sim store to break into the market. 

If we still had telehubs today, we'd all be better off as having a place where people could sell breedables and yes, gatchas, still legal to re-sell, in places to rent, not own, and also to socialize. You can have point-to-point and still put telehubs at the 128/128/0 of the sim, or another location, and set the landing there. I urged Philip at the time to keep the settings and even re-set them out of water and trees to Linden infohubs. It's a trivial matter of setting the same discs you would yourself on a private island for the landing point. You could have both, in many, many cases. Look at the map.  But instead of havens for commerce that could help the current situation, we have a Moles milkbar in Brownlee with cobwebs all over it.

The resident-run infohubs (14 or so) cannot allow sales on the areas, but in my case, I kept the mall next to it that I had purchased from Anshe for $7.5/m instead of the $20 or more on the auctions (telehub adjacent land was the old Blake Sea of SL)  when she got early warning of p2p and began to sell off her land. Today, it is still filled with merchants, some of whom have been there more than 10 or more years. There's a few spots to rent, so come sell your gatchas. I have another mall across the river which also was historically valuable as adjacent telehub land, and that mall is buy with tenants and has just one spot -- other malls I dumped, as there aren't need for them in a world where many moved to the MP. But you know, people still like to shop inworld at actual malls with an ambience and hangouts.  Merchant events also replaced malls, but you can't get into them in the first days, they are laggy and crowded, and you are pressured to leave. Not so on an old fashioned mall, although I can't exaggerate their importance. They have steadily waned over the years; they will contine to do so.

GATCHA RE-SELLERS PAY FOR SL AND RL EXPENSES AND THERE ARE WAY MORE OF THEM THAT DESIGNERS DUMPING SIMS NOW

o One tenant on a fairly expensive large rental, who had left when she got COVID and her husband lost some income (a story I saw repeated over and over throughout the last year of the pandemic), and who struggled with COVID for months (before the vaccine) was able to come back and re-start her virtual life, happily hired a landscaper again and such but then suddenly refunded, because of the gatcha announcement. She doesn't make gatchas or any content and didn't have a shop inworld. But her MP shop was paying all her expenses in SL and she couldn't keep up a large rental. She took her tier, which gives a discount in my rentals, to the Linden Homes, so score one for Patch Linden. The US $32 I lose and the $11.99 he gains with a premium account were not frequent occurrences before now for the reasons I have often said, that people come and go from Linden homes, where they are not allowed search, sales, or more prims, unlike my rentals.

But now I don't know.

I can totally see that for some people, a Linden home and an MP store will carry them through this, make them feel secure and loved, especially with all the frenzy of resident and Mole activity in Bellisseria, both as to new content and socializing and that's fine -- we have to advocate for anything that adds stability to SL and to the Lindens' economy, if not to ours, or if not to some of us, in some sectors.

I am TOTALLY aware that group rentals and group land living on the Mainland is in the distinct minority in SL; out of some 5000 sims, 2500 of which are Linden Land (roads, parks, and abandoned!), let's say there are perhaps 33% or 825 of which have some form of active life on them, if nothing else, in the form of couples and friends living private lives, or people driving or breeding animals. Compare and contrast with 2000 or more Bellisseria homes, and perhaps 500 old Linden homes, where there is a great deal of life and socializing, which then means shopping for furniture and accessories. Old Mainlanders make do with prims and sculpties for years. The merchants' community of Mieville, which I am in, has many amateur sellers like me, using sculpties or mesh models, or homely mesh builders who are completely happy because they are independent of the larger crazy world of high expense, high land impact -- and gatchas. Most Mieville merchants at the seasonal fairs don't sell their own made gatchas; they sell used ones. I'm one of the big re-sellers there, but the sales there merely offset things like texture uploads, they can't pay for tier; I have to price them low or they won't sell.  There are people in Mieville still in the suits in which Philip Rosedale gave birth to them; others have very complex steampunk wares and builds but outside the mainstream of the Contraption and Hideki type creators. This is why I love them. I actually think they are well positioned not to be harmed too badly by the gatchapolypse or the "Gatcha Eclipse" as one merchant calls it, but still, there are losses, like me not handing Perryn 200 gatchas free to re-sell for charity, as I will need to sell them now for tier myself if rentals decline.

Philip admitted to me long ago that the telehub sims had the most revenue on them and I would say that benefited many in a mid-and-lower merchant class. The sims with the most revenue today are owned or temporarily rented merchant events sims which benefit a few in the high merchant class. All classes are need in SL and there needs to be a balance.

MOVE TO BREEDABLES

o I see some tenants even who have breedable yards tiering down to the 25L rooms or skyboxes, and this may be unrelated to gatcha but tied to another issue of RL, which is that unemployment, which they keep staving off in the US, is waning and coming to an end; so are rent forgiveness programs. Fasten your seatbelts.

o Yet I see other tenants expanding and ordering more rentals. I have no idea why, as I don't pry into their lives. My anecdotes here are anonymous and based only on what people volunteer to me -- I can't go and poll them effectively, although I do have some polls at the Moth Temple and Ross Infohub, and I can't do focus groups, although I once did them years ago as I contemplated whether to branch out with more newbie communities and malls. I did. Then years later they all were closed, one by one.

GATCHAS ENABLED -- AND STILL WILL -- LOW BUSINESS COSTS AND LOW CONSUMER COSTS

o Yesterday I had every landlord's dream, ,in part due to the gatchapolypse, as I sort my inventory and try to unload my rares on a Marketplace that jumped thousands over night and is heading toward the BILLION mark.  Note: the category "gachas" on the Second Life Marketplace has climbed in the last few days in number from 901,903 to 902,560 to 903,806 this evening. Gacha machines will be illegal after 8/31, yet resales will not. 

I was motivated to start filling every fallow lot that I used to leave as either my own personal sandbox or a community hangout or just stock for requests for more prim, as they can be used anywhere from anywhere in a group. I put up two more skyboxes in Grote, both with e.marie gatcha rares that I won on 50L or 75L pulls. So that's a mere 20 cents or so expenditure for me in this business, on land of 512 or 1024 which I will ask 100L or 150L which, combined with other larger lots and higher prices on that sim, might cover the tier of that sim or might not, given vacancy rates.

Imagine my surprise when within minutes of putting this lot into even broken search/places (less broken on Firestorm), one lot rented out to someone who loved the gatcha skybox (thanks, e.marie!). e.marie, whom I don't know, and who doesn't make very many gatchas or homes from what I gather, and specializes more in clothing and makeup, just made my day and the day of a resident who got a cheap home, possibly out of a need to move from a more expensive one.

BREEDABLES AND MORE BREEDABLES ARE THE NEW "PLASTICS"

o As I flew around the neighbourhood, I met a new neighbour, she was putting up a breedables store briskly and shrewdly, commenting that this was the area to go into now that gatchas were dead. Funny, as gatcha resales are allowed; breedables are teetering on acceptance now, that may change, given the Lindens' announcements.

o A neighbour who had a cat store bought land that I had sold to someone last week when long-time tenants of a large rental couldn't keep paying and moved to a nearby cheaper rental. I decided anything empty that isn't interrupting a whole community, that is on the edges, has to be put to sale in these times. It's funny how the person who bought from me, convincing me to come down in price on the strength of her advertising of herself as a good neighbour, with 100 cats, but not at that location (lol), who did persuade me as good neighbours are worth their weight in gold!, then decided, because an unscrupulous homestead agent dumped her out of her rental with no notice because he couldn't pay his bills and lost his sim, that she should buy mainland, abandoned, or cheap. Good move! So she did, but then she needed every bit of tier, and put her land back on the market, where the cat lady didn't immediately buy it to expand, as she had not bought it from me for weeks, but a land baron came in the interrim, bought and held, until the cat lady did buy it, right after the gatcha policy announcement, probably paid more than I charged, not sure as the map didn't update again.

But thank God for land barons, those "just-in-time" people who both hold tier and keep land available until you can buy it AND liquidate your land even at rock bottom prices so you get something so that you don't have to abandon it for nothing.

IS ABANDONED LAND DISAPPEARING?

o Speaking of abandoned land. I've been noticing another phenomenon that is increasing and continuing -- abandoned land disappearing, as people buy it up. Where for 10 or more years in many areas I had huge empty fields all around me, especially mountains, now I have neighbours breathing down my neck, putting in orbs that send me back home, and returning encroaching trees that were unmolested for a decade because Lindens don't bother with abandoned land. So a combination of Linden auctions -- which have been very steady and perhaps even aggressive in lessening their own abandoned land tier load -- are creeping up on multiple sims -- I count 5 already and haven't looked everywhere, there may be more. It means I will have to abandon and move to more remote areas to get some peace I suppose.

Abandoned land is another way that the unskilled person unable to create content or follow the vicissitudes of the gatcha market which is time-consuming can participate in the economy -- buying land through tickets to LL where it costs $1/m per claim, or on the auction, where it can be as low as 0.5/m, and flipping it. LL's auction is now all abandoned land or land seized by the company if a customer was in arrears.

So there is MUCH LESS abandoned land than there was in the past (see Tyche's surveys or my own anecdotal experience), and this comes as thousands of people realize they can't keep paying tier on their islands, and might buy Mainland -- but now there is less of it. 

COMPANY MESSAGE DELIVERED VIA PATCH LINDEN

o I have been putting land to sale that isn't rented where it can be for months because I just feel SL isn't stable. The new VP of Engineering is not hired. The new owners haven't really made any significant statements; before they could manage a "big idea" chat much less a roadmap, they have spoken in the form of a gatcha machine ban (!), which they had Patch Linden, VP of Programs deliver, although the CEO could have delivered it or even someone lower down, in charge of, say, the Marketplace. I feel in my bones that Patch himself did not initiate or push for this change, but was sent out to tell the masses and take the heat, like Tigger in the old Sims Online, crushed between game overlords far less friendly than the Lindens, and a user base larger and often more vicious, if that is possible, than the SL user base. Because he's the public face of this devastating decision announcement, signing the blog announcement and making updates, my parody gatcha machines available at my store are called "Patcha" machines and have ears. Polar bear ears actually, signifying the coming economic chill.  This was not my idea, interestingly, but the idea of someone standing to lose a lot from the policy, who doesn't want credit.

That sort of community relations figure we are all familiar with in games or worlds over the decades, ground between user anger and platform owner indifference, we're also familiar with them in milder forms at Catholic Confraternity camp outings and retreats and Club Med G.O.s and various other office picnic organizers and tenant organization movie evenings. Somebody has to officiously "organize the fun," and somebody has to  absorb the flak who is trusted by the user base. Somebody in my RL housing complex has to come out and say even children have to wear masks on the crowded plaza and be called names by 4,000 people although it was not their decision.

Why do I think Patch did not initiate or endorse this, but of course will do the owners' bidding? Maybe because to think otherwise would make all of this worse to bear, but because he is not stupid. He knows that every single Bellisseria home has a gatcha if not 50. I cammed around my areas of Belli and saw everything from the latest Why Not and Bee Designs house and garden gatchas to ancient Apple Fall dress forms. Apple Fall, with its low-cost but high-brow furniture, can make poor people feel like they live on Martha Vineyard's Island. Reka (Nutmeg) can less, but still a great deal of that, especially for the "creative intelligentsia" who like to imagine lives of faux poverty in dachas with cracking leather couches and old ballet slippers hung on the wall, possibly because Nutmeg is dialing in from Russia and has to struggle more to make a living. Neither relies much on gatchas (Nutmeg more so) but can likely carry the weight after 8/31. 

If I were a Linden, I would quit over this astoundingly cruel impoverishment of the user base absent any actual law or legal notice from any authority, West or East. But then, I'm not a Linden...

BELLISSERIA IS NOT KEPT AFLOAT BY GATCHAS AND WILL SURVIVE

It's not just about decorating Bellisseria with gatchas. Patch surely knows, as someone who was a content creator and store owner himself before 2007, what goes into these little businesses, how hard the work is, how long the hours, and close the margins. I do think he has justified this to himself with two factors of the virtual life he seems in front of him -- different than the virtual life I see in front of me:

o breedables are excepted, and given the number of breedables overloading Bellisseria despite the two-pet only rule like China on children now, the businesses that sell them can carry SL

o avatars and mesh bodies and accessories are only in part sold via gatchas and those creators will do fine; and most of the middle class of Bellisseria who can afford a premium account (and that would not be somebody in Turkey where it is impossible even to buy the account) will be fine buying $2500 or $5000 fatpacks that replace gatchas. The "consumer basket" for Bellisseria might be US $11.99 plus another US $50 in Linden dollars for content, or $62 per month, tolerable for more Americans, although I see this as about 3 days of groceries and don't take it casually myself. For someone in Russia, that's 10% of their monthly income, not 3% as for Americans of the lower class still hooked up to the Internet and still with disposable time.

I imagine Patch was the one who was able to intervene to give 60 days for real enforcement, i.e. with first-time offenders after 8/31 essentially given another month to clean up their act, and he is likely now intervening for breedables, which I personally view as no different than the game of chance of gatchas. The technicality of buying just the mutt and his food, or just the rod and its bait, and then claiming that the rare that comes down the pike later isn't gambling is one I accept without scorn because I want any form of this to be tolerated, and would have preferred an adversarial approach to California gambling laws, or threatened Belgian lock-out of SL (or whatever that real story is, which we don't know) because I see there is no actual news of any actual move against LL, let alone ruling on lootboxes. Again, Apple and Google won their cases, and LL is more like them than EA.com, which suffered a fine.

And it's in that sense that I wish he were more a voice pushing against the owners' decision and bringing that experience to bear. I have no idea whether the "troika," which consists of Patch, Grumpity and I think the Tilia VP of Engineering now in the absence of Oz, or possibly another marketing Linden, gets to really sit in the counsels of the board and the owners. They used to in the old days; not sure now.

MAINLAND IS KEPT AFLOAT BY GATCHAS AND WILL SUFFER

o Yet I see a different world, not populated by avatars in Lelutka heads with $1500 furniture sets from Fameshed. I see people still putting out Linden Library furniture, if you can believe it. People putting out furniture from makers I've never heard of selling to Brazilians, Portuguese and Hispanic on the one hand or Southeast Asia or Eurasia on the other, very flat and low prim. I see acres of 30L or 35L or 60L weekends sales items from Simply Shelby or Velvet Whip or Kraftwork, the same items I buy because that's what people like and some of it is very good. Not everybody can have Circa and Loft & Aria. In this world, there are few premium accounts, partly due to the difficulty of getting credit cards in some countries or using them for SL or because of fear of recurring costs. In this world, a rental that costs on 50 cents or one US dollar  a month may be cut when there is a pandemic and job loss, because everything is cut and this is something one can cut. Yet by the same token, there might be more or those 50 centers or even increase to US $5 a month because people do pay for entertainment more in times of trouble.

In a world where refunding from a 150L a week rental can be a sign of distress as much as paying for one, how to read the signals? You can't.

WHY ARE PROFESSIONAL AND EXPERIENCED GATCHA RE-SELLERS AND YARD SALE AGENTS SO WORRIED WHEN THEY SHOULD BE HAPPY?

o Now let's come to the last topic, which puzzles me but I can only report on it. I would have thought, even with the glut of gatchas, even with me, a great student of gatchas with my Tofalar build and my own purchases and sales, able to sell them now and then, there would be MORE inworld yard sales. I'm certainly adding a free one for my tenants in addition to the rent-free Refugio Free Market. But I do know their value is trending towards nil, as I literally cannot give them away, and have not been able to for years. I have group gift givers, givers at the land preserve, and a VIP group where you can get 4 free gatchas a month, and I cannot give them all away as planned. It's not just about the new and the fresh. It's that everybody has too many and cannot put them all out. If there are a billion gatchas on the MP, and probably three times as much on the sims (I estimate my inventory of now 185,000 items is 45% gatchas), and only 25,000 sims, well, do the math. There aren't people to take the gatchas and put them on sims -- there aren't enough prims.

o One tenant is worried about her store rented from me but is holding for now, but she indicated she thought Epic, the largest gatcha yardsale agent, was in a panic. This may be sheer conjecture. I have no idea as I'm not at Epic any more. But the reason I'm not at Epic any more is very basic: I couldn't sell enough gatchas to pay their steep rent. With all my groups, advertising, venues, and visibility, I couldn't do better? No, and not even in my own stores.  There are people who can afford to keep their non-productive Epic stalls so that they can feel they are "playing store" credibly and because they live in hope if they can't afford it. But there is turnover and now there really may be a move out the door.

If yard sale agents are worried due to the glut on the market, we all have to be worried

The appearance of people making new breedable stores and extending old stores and asking if I can stand 50 horses on a rental (I can't, but maybe I will have to reconsider) means that's where the stampede is going of people who need to stay in the economy and sell little things

What about my own breedables, too many cats? I've put a fair number of them in inventory, which I never used to do, or sent them to the Menagerie. Who can afford $1600L to feed their cats for a month? Not me. I hardly ever bother to sell them, however, I think their worth in K dollars from having been sent to the Menagerie is probably greater than the occasional 400L sale on the MP?

o "What Residents Are Buying" on the MP is useful to watch although I think it's tilted. Individual gatcha sales don't reflect there; only full packs. You watch an endless parade of Lelutka heads and Cyber Boots and Tuff boat rezzers going by, but when you yourself buy a $199 full perm model, you can't see it on the line-up. Or any of them, ever, despite clearly a lot of sales of such items.

o I have seen a few of my rares sell on the MP, but it is too early to tell whether more of them will, or that was a fluke. Generally, I sell a few items a week for only 20L to 40L, hardly any income at all. I spent a little time putting up more items, and re-stocking stores, but honestly, I do not feel this is time well spent now. I think selling land and sprucing up rentals is more the way to go, but this may convert even by next week into making decisions about what gets abandoned.

THE VALUE OF THE LINDEN TUMBLES

o the LindEx, even while heavily controlled by Lindens, reveals the story now, too. You cannot sell Lindens for 240 as you could last week and months before them, keeping the value at US $4 per 1000L. You'll have to sell at 241 or actually even 242 unless you have days to wait.  Currently there is 73 million Lindens waiting to get out the door on the exchange.  Those are people that sold land, or sold content which they may not sell again with this new policy, or obtained Lindens from something, and now want to cash out while the going is good, as next week, it will be at 242 or 243. Watch that space. Forums ignoramuses argue that the Linden has "always" been this rate or "stays stable" but look at the 3 month chart. It doesn't. Far from it. And part of that stability comes from someone like me willing to lose one dollar as they pay tier, at least today. That adds up.

I was surprised how many complaints I heard from homestead renters and island renters who spend more on rentals how much the new fees and lesser cashout affected their tier, in their perception.

SOFT LAND SALES

o Another signal I see is that land isn't selling. Waterfront was able to sell for $5/m or $3/m; now 1 isn't enough. A big RP guy who bought most of the sim where I am and wants to edge me out, and already bought out a neighbour, thought he was offering me the princely sim of $3/m as "three times the going price" for flat meadow interior mainland. It used to be $5 if the view wasn't spoiled. When my land has sold, it's been for $5 on very good waterfront; or $3 for very good Mainland, but $0.3 for everything else. The time was, if you put out land for 0.3/meter a land bot or a real person would instantly buy it. Now, you wait days.

NON-GATCHA SALES

o another signal is that my little amateur creations have sold more than usual, but that's merely because I issued more of them, and just happened to get noticed on social media; inworld advertising and being noticed on the MP is awful, as search is broken and the MP has problems, too. I look at my store selling my own creators or gatchas as merely off-setting the cost of texture uploads, content, and tier. And not by much! "Learn to code," the tech bros tell you if your life as a waitress or even school teacher does not give you income to live on. The equivalent of that is the forums bro who shows up to tell us that we should make mesh and sell content or if we are learning after our businesses based in sculpties failed, we should perform live music or make RL art in the interrim. I personally don't think creating MORE is the way out of this crisis and I am worried how this will play out for those brave fillers of 30L Saturday sales who will now scramble even more crazily to mark down and step up in their skills or numbers of releases.

I have absolutely no illusions that I will sell more gatchas now and more non-transferable creations I make with models why? Because far more skilled people who have sold non-transferable original mesh content mainly in gatchas as that's where the money and the people were are worried, and do not think that selling sets will cut it.

Dozens of merchants I've talked to say they do not sell as many sets at all as they do gatchas, which make up their living. So we are about to see a very hollowed-out world, where top creators who do sell sets or individual items on no-transfer will go on succeeding and even have more success with no cheap gatcha competition now. Their customers will not be able to afford their wares, they will come down on their prices at weekend sales, but these are already so overstuffed, along with every other day of the week, that this is not a valid outlet waiting to save people now at all. 

Droves of middle tier and small tier creators will leave SL or significantly decrease economic activity that will be a real shock to the economy and a long one. Those speaking airily of our ability to bounce back each time the Lindens throw a debilitating crisis at us like this, or "our ability to be masochists" as Mitch Kapor, former board chair, aptly put it are in deep illusion. The world will continue to contract, as it has from its peak in 2007.

EXIT TO OTHER WORLDS?

o An aspect of all this always threatened at each type of crisis is that people will go to other worlds. As there aren't very many viable ones, and Open Sim and Inworldz were visible failures, along with LL's own experiment, Sansara, this seemed pretty fake. Now it isn't so fake. I go by what I see very smart entrepreneurial people doing. One friend used to sell expensive compete gatcha sets on the MP for prices like $50,000 and did very well; he ran a RP community that despite a very good run and Fantasy Faire attention and such, he decided to close while the memories were still good; he began learning Blender to go produce content for Sinespace, the world of Adam Bisby, a former fortunate son of Philip Rosedale's and land baron, which I have seen and can say does have promise and looks good, although does not have many people. Then he swerved off to become avidly involved in Upland as a first mover and pioneer. I don't understand Upland, which seems like glorified domain squatting to me; it has no world you can go to yet, and it relates to bitcoin which I don't believe in. Still, listening to the videos associated with it I can see where it will be as compelling as EVE Online for some people and have transactions in the six figures. Decentraland, I have no idea about and don't wish to find out, but someone will.

o While bemoaning her now ruined income and fearful of the future, one creator said to me interestingly that she was thinking in fact of moving to making 3D content for Turboquid where game developers buy content. Why stay in SL which is aging and outdated and waste my talents? Why suffer these upheavals? I could add that many content creators could be going to Shutterstock or Pond5, where my son and his wife makes a living with photography and videos far more interesting to him than SL once was -- as they take out the least percent of any such platform provider. Well, yeah. SL might seem quaint with fairy-hugs and unicorn-kisses and little mushrooms you make for the next Arcade until they don't cut it any more. The social aspect of groups and customers and sales might be exhilarating, the grind of more packaging and CS sure won't be. One grate thing about gatcha machines is the ease of packing and vending that no Caspar vendor really brings to you with the same uptake.

o Casper Vendor, the monopolist, who put my name as a "sample griefer" in every TP of his sold, so that to this day, I still find stores where the 2nd floors are banned to me, won't suffer as he did not sponsor merchant events as such, or gatcha machines as such and will now be in more demand as those gatcha makers have to stuff more of his vendors with things to sell otherwise.

o Read the decisions -- or lack of them, in fact -- on what merchants in the Last Gatcha Sales advertised on SeraphimSL will do after 8/31. Some say "repurposed/repackaged," i.e. sold in packs on no-transfer, or in singles, not clear; some says "undecided"; a few say "retired". I think none of them can afford to decide this month when they can still get sales! So they won't tell you. I now have 50 Nomad gatchas for 20L. What will I do with them? Some of the rares I will use to decorate; perhaps something can be sold, but I actually doubt it even tho Nomad has very high quality items and is one of my favourites.  I don't want to burn $100 to see if ionic, who is almost entirely made up of gatchas, and expensive ones with hard-to-get rares, has said anything indicative.Anyone?

I didn't see anything on Arcade's web site or social media and naturally wondered what their policy was on all this, which was going to ruin them. I still boycott the Arcade in protest against 100L gatchas and the failure to add player rewards to compensate all those empty pulls free of rares. Leave it to Daniel Voyager, a court reporter and anti-fax conspirator as I just found out, more's the pity, to find out the news, however because he thought to look on their Facebook page. Odd they couldn't post this on their web page;

On Tuesday 3rd August the Arcade team announced on their official Facebook page that the upcoming September 2021 in Second Life will be cancelled due to the recent Linden Lab news about banning gache at the end of August 2021. The Arcade team have said they will pause operations now to re-imagine the whole event and the event will return back even stronger in the near future. Yay!

Yay, nothing. They are toast. They are just another merchant's event with sets and fatpacks in the new dispensation -- and their former customers will not have the cash to pay them expensive booth fees. Re-imagine -- nothing. Their customers, who made the event -- the merchants -- are imagining themselves out of SL in some cases, or in a quandary about boxing up merchandise or retiring it or repurposing it. What I think Emilio doesn't want to admit is that he is a middleman between those creators and us, and part of the reason their gatcha pulls up was to pay him for booths. These sponsors pay more to be at the landing and in the view:

• Chez Moi

• Concept
• Ersch
• Kraftwork
• Moon Rabbit
• Scandalize

They're going to pay him now again when they need every penny and actually need to draw customers into their stores more now? Where their main stock is now on no-transfer. Arcade was invitation-only, so the booth fee and terms are not made public. Interestingly, as I just found out from reading their FAQs, they have a certain formula for the chance for rares that apparently all vendors using their machines must accept, which I suppose makes it more predictable. As you can tell, there is no love lost between me and Arcade, as I have been a long-time critic and am now banned from their event. They really began gatchas in 2012 at Christmas when the 25L gatchas were a nice Christmas decoration and stocking gift and intended to remain such, but then grew to a mammoth event with multiple cam sims and 100L gatchas as I've blogged repeatedly. I'm very sorry to see creators' gatchas go but not sorry to see the middlemen go, especially this one. This is a very underreported part of SL and very secret and it is very hard to find out what people pay. I know from having been in just a few events at the lower end of the spectrum that $1000 or $2000 was the norm for those lesser-knowns, and that $5000 or more must be what they pay at the top. But you tell me. We are about to find out just how much longer they can live, especially when, as with independent artists who make their own records, merchants may band together to make their own events as ionic once did with Chapter Four. Sure, some event organizers ARE the merchant companies. But not all. BellaTech with her sky-defacing ugly giant domes damaging the view is not creating content, only blight containers for others to put their content in rentals.

I'm almost at 10,000 words now, with only 3 days of signals to monitor and report and 27 more to get through (yes, notice that LL didn't really give people even a full 30 days).

So finally:

GRIEFING AND CRIME

o What happens when poor people, which is a lot of people in SL because if they were RL designers of real merit, they'd work for Disney or Facebook, not on a laggy Linden sim, or they'd shop at least at Wal-mart! (if they had such a thing in their countries). They do with less. They become more innovative. They think of garage sales or appliance repairs or Tupperware parties or things like the okaziya system in Russia or sex work. But then they sometimes turn to crime:

o Copybotting -- that has been put at bay, although has hardly disappeared and is still a real problem for some people. The permissions system help, they are a deterrent, but LL can't police all the IP theft especially if not inworld as such using an exploit of world mechanics.

o Extortion -- cartels, mafias, threats, violence appear to make people sell things they don't want to sell or pay "protection money" to be free of at least all the other mafias except that one -- and not for long;

o Extortion disguised as high event or booth fees;

o Various unscrupulous practices related to merchants -- putting them in disadvantageous positions, low on sales lists, etc.;

o Catfishing -- luring of lonely people into giving their account information and steal of content and identity;

o Possibly RL crime like drug sales although I don't think this has had significant presence in SL. I've seen only a few actual outright drug sales put on the MP and not for long.

o Griefing - I'm not a believer in the hydraulic concept that some have regarding young men's energy, that if they are put to "creativity" they will destroy less. Doesn't work, and not will have every reason not to work more.

o Bellisseria house trading -- socializing and presence will mean even more to establish commerce circles if the era of big events is forced to end or diminish, and I believe it will. I don't need to go to a laggy sim to buy a $750 furniture set; I can buy it at that creator's store. The event was often about the gatcha machines, which were ONLY present there, and creator's deep discounts, which they can't justify any more. So my theory is that people will use the hawala as the Arabic countries call it or okaziya as Russians dub it to transfer property and money. I get a high value Belli house on waterfront with a clear view or a rare in the newest releases; I set it to a group. You pay me money in person on another sim, and you move into that house and live in it, setting to the group. A rental, without a rental box. This already goes on, although I actually think, it's not very widespread.

o Will there be secret gatcha pulls in the sky at midnight? No, because Lindens can easily see scripts being used and could simply deprecate all gatcha scripts at root on the asset server if they really want to be thorough about this, as they have deprecated various types of griefing scripts or animations. I just think there will be less public activity, more insider deals, more corruption as a result of this, not as if it didn't exist before!

If anything, the main feature of Bellisseria I see these days unadvertised or admitted by the Moles and Lindens are EMPTY HOUSES. With people's names on them. Empty of furniture. Not seized by Linden Lab for weeks. And I am guilty of empty Belli too, keeping now two empty houses in the anticipation of dumping them for tier I'll need or a move to "magic" Belli which I'm less inspired to make now after my ban.

Why? Why this slumlord activity now mercifully outlawed in NYC? Keeping valuable property empty. Well, because people's eyes are bigger than their stomachs. They want, but don't have time to decorate. Sure, I enjoy sitting in my empty Belli house, it's very peaceful. But I don't think that's the reason! These are mainly houses in the interior with nothing special around them, so I suspect that people just got them merely to keep getting "the new and shiny" but don't want to spend now even on gatchas to furnish. I suspect there are more reasons I don't know about. There will be some shrinkage especially of these empty extra houses in Belli but most will instinctively do what my tenant did who took  her tier out of my group and gave it to Patch for security. I'm only one more rentals agent likely to be so impacted by this downturn I could dump land.  I don't flip land and don't sell my rental land as they are mainly in contiguous communities. I will be forced if it is really bad to take some entire group and community and sell it as a group, as Campbell Coast's owner Bjoyful did even before this devastating announcement, due to serious health conditions. The new owner, a land baron back in SL after a hiatus is mainly known for land chopping and holding back land that can fill with signs and offering it for sale to new buyers of the larger parcels, but no matter. I actually think he won't chop Campbell. I also don't think the owner got what it was worth, which is precious: artists who joined together in a community to sell works, and tenants who like the ambience. 

There's no question that when economies suffer, so do communities, the "loose ties" that bind SL graciously, the comraderie of trading in groups fed by the influx of fresh content. It's more than likely some gatcha sets once in demand will sink into the abyss of inventories as nobody remembers them or sees them in the glut on the market. I stared at a gatcha couch in my rentals last night made by someone who while in the people list, turned up two abandoned lands in her picks for home and store, and had no MP presence. We'll see more of that, and I want to mark them passing. 

 

Appeal to Linden Lab Re: 3-Day Forums Ban and Response

No surprise here -- it took Dakota Linden less than 24 hours to cut and paste the TOS back to me without responding to what I view as a troubling phenomenon I never used to see on the forums -- removal of content without a notice of a disciplinary action, sometimes when threads are closed for everyone. I'm not for having these infantile speech laws but if you have them, I think they should be practiced consistently. So if you remove a post that says something critical of Linden Lab and its staff even in the mildest form, or any form, you should generate a notice that says "Warning, your content has been removed for trolling". Or "spam," as it was designated when I opened two other threads besides the official company-made thread about the gatcha machine ban. I thought it useful to make an appeal for the record, so here it is, with the curt response:

#1758300

While I realize it is futile as no Linden will challenge their boss, I would like to appeal the current 3-day forums bans and past actions against me on the forums as I see they are arbitrary. When only the company can make a thread on such a controversial issue as the gatcha ban, and any other thread, even conducted with civility, is dubbed "spam" as mine were, your reputation for legitimate critical forums suffers. I made a list of demands to LL regarding mitigation of the policy, not opposing it, pulling my list out of a 300+ page thread as a very distinct different subject. There was no "fighting" in it and it was calmly discussed. Two of the demands, ironically, have already been met. My 2nd thread was in the "Merchants" sub-forum and was about strategies to cope with the gatcha ban, not addressed in the main thread which was mainly about whether it was illegal or legal, whether the people who made or bought gatchas were predators or chumps worthy of contempt, etc. In that thread, one repeated commenter injustifiably kept dubbing the thread as spam or trolling and may have AR'd it, but I don't think that's where this ban came from.

Curiously, my comment in the main thread about how Bellisseria residents, which includes me, as the middle class that can adapt to this change and buy more expensive non-transferable furniture, and that other forms of illegal activity will re-appear in SL as people cope, was simply removed and no reference was made to it (see attached), i.e. it was not characterized as "spam" or given a notice. That's disturbing. While I view the forum TOS and enforcement as a "contract of cohesion" often clumsily enforced, it has its own logic which many people accept. Removing content with *no* notice and not under the description of a given offense is arbitrary even within LL's terms.

Legions of posters have referred to Belli as "Trumansville" or "Stepford Wives" and criticized its uniformity. Quoting Pete Seeger on "little boxes of ticky-tacky that all look the same" is no different; what is "ticky tacky" if not virtuality? Surely you can concede the houses have limited variety and repeat endlessly? Surely you can concede that Belli, which I have praised as a successful Linden showcase project helping retention and socializing as well as the economy, is not for everyone? Far worse criticism has been tolerated; all that's different here is that it comes from me.

 

This is the 4th time I have had content removed, on some occasions, without *any* notification at all, which goes against the corporate standards of due process you have established in 18 years; in one case, a comment was removed without action, yet the response to it including a copy of it was not removed, illustrating the haste with which the removal was made. In another case, in the middle of his busy workday, Patch came to a thread personally in which forums regulars were harassing a newbie who dared to use the term "sim". Path insisted that we call these entities "regions" and posted a redlined copy of the Knowledge page (!) then removed my comment in defense of the newbie, closed the thread, but took no moderation action against me. This is truly unjustifiable, when the harassers of the newbie are left unscathed. Deletion of content with or without thread closure, with no notification of action under the TOS to the user, should not be allowed.

 

Another time, the reasons were again inexplicable and again involved Patch personally -- and mysteriously. If there is a rule that no poster can criticize or mention in any critical light the VP of Program of LL, then say so, put it in the TOS for the forums. I think this grows from a personal antagonism that may have begun inworld in 2007 on his original avatar, whose identity I don't know, but suspect as one of a crew who constantly harassed me on the forums and inworld for my critical comments about their favouritism. LL has come a long way from those days of the FIC and improved its practices, and since banning me arbitrarily from the forums in 2005 or 2006, a ban which was reversed as soon as the relevant Linden left that position. Personal antagonism is understood, given the toxicity of the forums and anger at policies which sometimes LL is forced itself to implement due to law (although no relevant law or cases have been cited in this curious sudden gatcha ban). But the tools of moderation or inworld bans should not be wielded by those in power simply because of irritation. That is why I make this statement for the record, again, without any expectation of action.

 

• Dakota Linden

  said 16 hours ago

  Hello Prokofy Neva,

  
  

  Linden Lab just completed its review, at your request, of a disciplinary action taken against your account.

   

  Our investigation shows that the suspension of your account was correctly applied in alignment with the Second Life Terms & Conditions and/or Second Life Community Standards. You may review the Terms & Conditions in full at https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/second-life-terms-and-conditions.

   

  If any further information is required, Linden Lab will contact you regarding this incident. Otherwise, please consider the matter resolved.

   

  Sincerely,

   

  Dakota Linden

  Account Specialist 

  Linden Lab

   

  
  
  

I'm going to be sure to send a response that Dakota Linden should get a "long lunch" when asked to rate his work because I think he pasted the TOS back to me very neatly. and expressed the nature of the "managed democracy" of the forums quite aptly.

 

I'm going to note for the record, although they could be entirely unrelated, that I've had a string of incidents lately in which the behaviour of various now former tenants or random harpies flying from the sky seemed calculated, as if to force me either to abuse report them or be accused of abetting their violation of the TOS or, to be riled and then break the TOS so they could AR me, i.e. swearing in General. I can only take these things in stride and move on.

 

Linden Lab's New Gatcha Policy Harms the Livelihoods of Poor People in Poor Countries, Especially Women

One last try for anc's mermaid prince!

Linden Lab's new gatcha policy wasn't a total surprise, as it has been bruited about on Reddit fora and SL threads and blogs, usually in the form of some know-it-all "Internet lawyer" claiming that because his own country has a gambling law that might apply to gatchas, LL will buckle and ban gatchas in SL. And now they have.  What I explained over and over months ago, when Drake, an obnoxious an uneducated Australian enamored of Roblox with many grand ideas about how the world should work, is this:  a bill drafted by Josh Hawley (yes! that Josh Hawley) inspired about ostensible concern for children falling prey to lootbox expenditures in games was not a law, would not likely become a law, never even got into committee -- and PS Hawley is under investigation now for the January 6 Insurrection and has other fish to fry). The FAILURE of such a bill-not-law means something valid about the ability to prosecute moral imperatives around perceived gambling. There is no federal law; California's law has emboldened some class-action suits but they have FAILED. The LL-friendly lawyer touted by SHamlet warned that a law would be passed and LL would crack down. But...no law was passed. All of that is important to remember going forward, as the policy was made without a law in the US, and only the vaguest jurisprudence related to actual laws abroad, and the mechanism for enforcement internationally remained truly unexplained. LL could have fought this; it chose not to. As I noted in the forums, I think this has everything to do with Raj Date, Elizabeth Warren protégé, who served a term on the consumer board at the Treasury Department, and nothing to do with Japan or Belgium:

RAJ DATE

Raj Date was the first-ever Deputy Director of the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). As the Bureau’s second-ranking official, he helped steward the CFPB’s strategy, its operations, and its policy agenda. He also served on the senior staff committee of the Financial Stability Oversight Council, and as a statutory deputy to the FDIC Board.

Before being appointed Deputy Director, Raj acted as the interim leader of the new agency, serving as the Special Advisor to the Secretary of the Treasury. He led the CFPB for most of the first six months after its launch.

Currently, Raj is the Managing Partner of Fenway Summer, an advisory and investment firm focused on financial services and financial technology. In that capacity, he chairs the investment committee of Fenway Summer Ventures, a fintech venture capital fund, and works with clients of FS Vector, the fintech advisory firm. He also serves as a Director for a number of innovative firms in financial services: Prosper, the marketplace lender; Green Dot, the bank holding company; Circle, the digital asset firm; Grasshopper, a de novo bank; and College Ave, a private student lender.

He is a graduate of the College of Engineering at the University of California at Berkeley (highest honors) and the Harvard Law School (magna cum laude).

The combination of computer programmer with belief in code-as-law, with the old-fashioned law degree ostensibly grounded in rule-of-law (including over programmers) is deadly, as I recall from the persona of Benjamin Noble. Mr. Raj does not have to worry where his groceries are coming or how is sales are doing in his little online business obviously. That's fine, I'm not a socialist let alone a communist and I think capitalism should thrive even if it should be regulated. I'm a Democrat, I voted for Biden. I wouldn't vote for Elizabeth Warren, however, and that's where we differ markedly. I do wonder if Raj personally, like Benjamin Noble, believes he will make his mark in the world by being a first mover on this crackdown in the Metaverse, ostensibly for a "better world".

I don't make a living from SL; my little operation in SL doesn't relay on gatcha re-sales for anything except offsetting costs a little bit; I mainly give away gatchas. I don't regularly make them as a form of creativity or business in SL; I have made two disastrous experiments, one, the Shaman's Gatcha in which not a single person but one lone Fantasy Faire shopper ever played one of them (but he did get the rare sword), and the other, a Dinkie Tea Ceremony Set, while it got maybe 3 dozens people to pull it a few times, sold more in the fatpack form and still sells. I say this because most people suspect if you take a position opposing the Lab and its Friends you must have some dog in some hunt. I actually have a Gatcha Addiction Treatment Center, the Shaman's Hut, which isn't a joke but a self-paced meditation and tutorial on how to either get better and playing and selling gatchas to reduce losses, or how to break loose from them entirely. I've thought for some years now about gatchas and their role in the economy and their role in emptying out people's purses and the insanity of how they pile up in inventory unused and unsold, impoverishing people along the way. I've been highly critical of the increase of $75 and $100 gatchas which is why I have called for a boycott of the Arcade for many years.

I'm mainly concerned  now about how the policy will be mitigated, about "the little dressmakers" as they were dubbed 10 years ago in the Copybot scandals of that era. These are people who make their living in SL, or at least make some cash to offset RL expenses, ever more necessary in the pandemic, people who are actually quite famous in SL and who sell lots of gatchas (you'd have to sell a lot of them in order to make even a modest living) and people don't even realize their background or location.

Yesterday afternoon and evening I had conversations with some of the gatcha makers, one of whom I contacted as I encountered his lovely gatcha at the Gatcha Garden event, commenting that it was likely my last gatcha pulling session. I set aside $2000 after I heard the news, and went around to a dozen famous and not so famous gatchas to collect a few dozen items which I mainly give away or use to decorate my rentals. Completely coincidentally, I haven't been buying or selling gatchas much in the last 5 months for a whole host of reasons I'll blog about another time, but among which were the decline in quality and the increase in pull prices to $100.

o This gatcha maker told me gatchas made up most of his income, I was truly surprised as my impression of him was that he sold sets and non-transferable items for the most part, with gatchas quite rare in his stock. He said he had already been contemplating a dump of his sim because of the economic slump in general -- worse this summer for pandemic and other reasons -- and this pushed him further. He didn't think he would close his store but it was a real challenge. He was pessimistic about the prospects.

So LL has lost an island tier, and will lose more; maybe they will lose the tax off the MP and the tax on LindEx transactions and cashouts but they must have contemplated these losses as not large, and temporary. I think they will be shocked at how wrong they are and will do everything not to admit it for many months.

o Another man who totally makes his living from only gatchas was trying to put a good face on it and seeing it as an opportunity, especially to get out of the treadmill of events and ever-new and exotic sets. I had thought from our last conversation that he had in fact pivoted to sets but I was mistaken; those sets were gatcha fatpacks with gatchas. He was mulling over this or that alternative and I urged him to put his items on transfer and sell them at the same price, keeping out rares for higher prices and/or selling fatpacks. He thought there would be limited appeal for fatpacks at say $1500 even, as fatpacks now don't sell as much. I agree that those urging fatpacks as a solution aren't looking at the actual sales of them now, which are dismal compared to gatcha pulls. People are contrary, and would rather pull $2000 of gatchas in the hopes of getting a rare to resell for $2000 than to just pay $1500 to get the non-transfer fatpack. That lets you know what this is about for people: not just gambling, but a form of economic activity, like gold-mining or bit-coin mining, a get-rich-quick scheme or even if played shrewdly, a steady stream of good income. The gatcha is a double gamble: first you have to get the rare, but then you have to sell it, in a saturated market.

o A gatcha re-seller who is really good at wrangling the stuff, staying way ahead of seasons and such wondered whether business would continue as well once the supply of fresh gatchas disappeared in September.

o Apple Fall casually announced that he would put his gatcha EXCHANGES out but not his gatchas, which were retired two years ago! and he has made no more!  Gatchas stopped being a factor for AF's economy long ago, and he has so many sales that he can afford to give away tens of thousands of dollars in "Monday perks" and have $50 sales all the time, or even $0 sales of older inventory. I always have a feeling that Apple Fall, which used to be called warehousesales and not Apple Pancake, with the new name, was a whole team of people doing prototypes for businesses of the future in the Metaverse. Maybe it really is one kid out there but it never feels that way to me.

o Contraption said also casually that everyone could come have a final pull until September 1 ($75 and $100) on these intricate music boxes, but then fatpacks would be sold for $5000 (!) because they are expensive as to time and trouble and hard to make. Understood. And that lets you know that highly skilled craftsmen like Wainwright were repaid for their labours in zillions of gatcha pulls and can only make this up with $5000 blister packs. The reality is that Contraption mainly sells clothing and decor, sometimes in sets, not gatchas any more. Like Apple Fall, with their skills, market share, and renown, they don't have to worry about the impact of this policy. BTW  Wainright is a RL designer and developer and has no need of SL.

o Raindale (Keiralans) announced that she was very hard hit by this policy -- gatcha sales make up most of her SL sales and SL is her livelihood -- and she was making gatchas available for 25. THIS is what I mean by impact -- maybe there are mainly men -- and some women -- who have RL businesses or jobs and aren't hit by this, but there are mainly women -- and some men who have been devastated. Read her plaintive note:

As some of you already know, gacha will be banned from SL since September,1...

https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/8586-policy-change-regarding-gacha/

I am really trying to cope with this news and to figure out what to do next, but right now I feel very lost.

Most of my income came from gacha and I seriously doubt that I'll be able to cover my SL and RL expenses with regular releases only...
My C|M collections never get as much sales as gacha sets (even when they have 10+ items in). It's not about quality, time and effort. I can spend 60+ hours on a highly detailed project, and it will never bring as much money as a gacha set made in a week...

As you might notice, I don't make a lot of gachas these days. Arcade covered my fullsim rent + other fees, and an extra set every other month helped me to maintain my modest middle class lifestyle here in Russia.
In order to make this money without gachas I'd have to create 10-15 new releases a month - that's unrealistic, and I will be burnout in just a few weeks.

I do love gacha both as a creator and a shopper, I think 2/3 of the stuff I've ever bought were from gacha machines, and it really feels like one of the last things I actually enjoyed in SL is soon to be gone.

Maybe it's a sign for me to move on and finally do something else outside of SL.
I'm not closing Raindale just yet, and have no such plans in the next few months! But if it turns into a hobby without any real profit - I'll have no choice but to minimize my time here.

The most confusing part for me - is what to do with existing gacha sets.

There is no way I could possibly re-package hundreds of items into individual products, make new pictures, replace note-cards etc... it would be a huge waste of time and prim space (especially since I'll most likely have to move to a cheaper sim with less prims)
________________________
What I decided for now:
________________________

I will make copy+ full-sets for gachas that are currently in main-store - after September,1

I will have to completely retire (remove from store) most of the older machines in the Outlet area.

I will try to hand-pick the best prizes from all the sets and re-package them into copy+ releases - it will take some time and there is no guarantee that a certain product will ever be for sale again individually.

I will still exchange all the prizes purchased earlier (or from re-sellers) to copy+ on request
*yes, re-selling gacha prizes is still going to be legal

________________________

For now, I put all of my machines on 25L$ per play - let's enjoy our final days of "risky gambling" and "lucrative business" XD

Of course, I'm open for your requests, ideas and suggestions - just drop me an IM/NC

*my English is in a bad shape today, because I'm pretty upset - if you didn't understand something from this NC - please ask!

Keira ♥

 

o Jinx also announced 25L gatchas while she decides what to do.

o Libertine has put up a post with details although Alia is still pondering about the form in which he will sell his precious eggs. I find this whole thing torturous, thinking of the enormous hours he has put in on these exquisite creations, of which I own hundreds, including complete year sets, whose doubles I give as gifts or hunt prizes. The labour of creativity of a person like Alia reverberates and reverberates through the economy and social world and people can't know how deep this is. I was inspired by Alia to start my own Surprise Egg line, very different than his, and certainly not executed with anywhere near the skill, but which are a creative outlet for me. I can't imagine how this transition will work to keep Alia paid as well as he was before, as he should be.

o Minimal said briefly, while expressing sorrow, they would be retired in 30 days.

I will post these notices and others I find later.

In this thread, a few actual merchants as distinct from a lot of alts talking through their hats said they were sad about this and it hurt their bottom line but they would adapt.

Patch Linden, VP of Program, came very early this a.m. and closed the thread ostensibly because of "fighting among yourselves" but said he would re-open it later after it cooled down. But I believe the real reason is more about my pointed remark re: the middle class in Bellisseria in the "ticky tackies that all lookd the same". Bellisseria is his success story. He can rightl take pride in it. But getting rid of gatchas, which are not only "predatory" to the prudes of Belli and tacky to the aesthetes there, but constitute economic competition to them as non-gatcha merchants or shoppers who support non-gatcha merchants, is something most of the Belli forums regs seemed lustily to approve. Every home in Belli is decorated with gatchas, however. There's the rub.

And some bloggers are honest about this. I thought this was very well said -- gatchas are beautiful, cheap, fun, enabling people to decorate their house cheaply.

As I said in the forums, gatchas arose to cope with increasing dislocations in the economy  induced first by the RL 2008 recession and even before by the end of the SL honeymoon in 2006-2007, the removal of the telehubs, which represented the democratization of the economy away from oldbie monopolists and one-category market movers, the VAT tax, the GOM ban and end to third-party currency sales; the crackdown on banks and gambling. SL has a somewhat realistic but also toy economy controlled like China or Russia. The currency is basically kept at a fixed exchange rate like the old Soviet "golden ruble". Mercifully, SL only takes 10% tax and only on the Marketplace, but by refusing to fix search for 9 months, by banning economic activity from Belli, by failing to encourage and manage inworld advertising, LL ensures that only its most favoured merchants can succeed. 

Likely some of them are having private and urgent convos with the Lab now, especially big breedable makers, as the policy on breedables simply is not clear. My guess is that LL will fudge on this not to deprive their best merchants of a living; to keep people from losing their pets during the pandemic; and to further harm the economy by barring those avid re-sellers, too.

I made up a list of demands, and I'm happy to say that at least one of them has already been met by Patch, while neither he nor anyone else would admit that, of course. Yet that list, as a separate thread, is now deleted and I'm suspended for 3 days for "spamming". One thread focused on demands to LL, separate from LL's own thread of 300 pages seems completely reasonable, as does even another thread in the Merchants section about merchant alternatives. Two threads are not spam. Texts that may feel as if they disparage an LL official may be the real problem. Otherwise, how can you understand the removal not just of the "spam" of two other threads, but a comment within the "only authorized thread" as well that is not actionable on the face of it.

I said that 30 days is not enough and we should have 60 if not 90; I don't see them budging on that but at the last minute they will extend it and like Putin or Nazarbayev when they impose draconian laws, will seem like liberals for easing them slightly in the event.

I said punishment had to be made clear, and whether first time offenses would lead to permabans, etc. and that is what Patch responded to: he said first time offenses would be allowed; this was not a sanction to violate the policy, but an effort should be made to comply. OK, that's nice, now we need more.

I can drop one demand of a tax holiday on the MP. It won't make that big a difference to merchants, who factor it in with their pricing, and LL won't lose face that way. And that's reasonable. They can't lift and reimpose the tax on every whim at every crisis. They want the MP to be stable. So the holiday is out.

I do think it's worth insisting on LL working out other avenues for sales, having so drastically and pre-emptively harmed the economy before there is a single court case of any validity with a decision that applies to LL, let alone any action against LL per se. 

I think clarification of what drove this is in order. There is slightly more from Patch on this, referencing other countries, but he or other Lindens should answer why, in a state where Apple shrugged off a lawsuit in the end based on the lootbox complaint -- and Google did as well -- why they, as a little country, can't bask in those precedents and not harm their economy -- which is better for users than the big dogs who take 30%.

I think the Lindens should not actively prosecute yardsales in Bellisseria. They should role out the mall they discussed where people would have some outlet, preferably with no rent, in the same place they socialize and have the much vaunted commuuuunity.

The idea that no commuuuunity takes place around commerce is so rabidly insane I don't know where to start. Such forums socialism is uninformed by actual events which are like a cross between the grand round at an opera in the old days and the promenades on streets in Eurasian capitals or the rodeos and fairs of the Western United States. Of course community coalesces around commerce, and that's more than fine.

Then I went on to mention my hobby horses -- fix search (my God! fix search! especially now!), have a resident ad system at infohubs and welcome areas etc.

Again, forums-marms sniff that we shouldn't have the company doing things for us, and these merchants should make it on their own. Except...the Lindens manage the LindEx, something they created to REPLACE third-party services that created higher value for it. The Lindens manage the Marketplace -- a system they bought from user developers who ran it well enough and didn't charge a tax. The Lindens intervene everywhere, with higher cashout fees now and even more draconian rules for the birthday -- no business logos can be shown. Not a tip jar can appear. Belli lots cannot be in search. Business is driven to the Mainland and private islands, into a corner, where there's a bonanza for some and failure for too many as they cannot get visibility with the terrible advertising in SL, which exists as "too much" in the form of ad-farming on every corner and "too little" with the inability to find things in search or see past the clutter of events and classified purchased by the most wealthy.

It wasn't the intention of Linden Lab to harm poor people originally; if anything, they were making a better world. They never really played up this angle as they have an aversion to commerce as techno-communists at heart, or techno-libertarians in practice that thing commerce should consist mainly of and largesse for programmers and graphic developers in RL and gigified hard labour for the rest of us. I'm in the gig economy and I know what it's like. There are some times over the years, however, when they've expressed pride in this ability of poor people to make a living and help bring about that Silicon Valley Better World.

The beauty of SL -- the miracle -- is that Black single moms in Detroit, injured war veterans in Columbus, OH; backdrop and weapons and vehicles and dress designers in Eastern Europe or South Asia; Brazilians, Poles, Russians, Portuguese, Spanish, Japanese -- they could all flourish in SL with wonderful businesses that earned them the $2000 or $3000 US dollars they needed for a modest living -- or even a good living in their countries. This has now been severely undermined. I have seen all this with my tenants. I have marvelled how some people have improved their lot, helped their families, had an amazing outlet for their creativity.

The form this took for a lot of reasons was gatchas, because they were in demand. The claim that gouging, predatory, selfish creator fascists ripped off poor addicted people isn't the way to understand this. Sure, there are poor and rich who spent their grocery money on gatchas. But what's more the point is that poor people bought furniture for their homes for 20 cents and not 20 dollars. That's the reality. They didn't have to resort to sex work, placating a dom, working as a club bouncer to have a virtual life. I have tenants who literally go work as dancers or DJs and drop their pennies day by day into my very cheap rentals, so I know the world they are in. For the clever, or even not so clever, selling a set of gatchas on the MP for $5000 was that $20 that made a real difference in RL between going out to dinner and staying home, or eating rice and beans or steak.

History is written by the victors, although less so nowadays with more social media. Telehubs, the VAT, gambling, the banks -- the history of these phenomena are all distorted by Ll and their friends. Gatcha will be, too. Smooth lawyers will be lauded for having warned their clients instead of fighting alongside those clients to reverse or at least mitigate this policy. 

UPDATE: I wasn't surprised that now I have a three-day forums event for "spamming".

This is because I opened up two other threads alongside the 400-page thread started by Linden Lab itself, one with a draft list of demands urging discussion about mitigation, and another about how merchants should respond with alternatives and strategies to cope. The thread with the list of demands is closed; Patch closed the main thread as soon as he saw my wry comment about Bellisseria, certainly itself not a bannable offense, then closed the separate thread which is hardly "spam" but a legitimate separate thread. Fangirlz were on hand to bluster that I was just seeking attention when I was in fact trying to rally people to coherent activity which I think already yielded results. The second thread I opened hasn't been closed which lets you know they simply sought technicalities.

 

It's always hard to take SL seriously when this sort of unnecessarily controlling behaviour takes place. LL has made a shocking policy with bad roll-out, for no reason we can tell. We have no choice to accept it, but they themselves know they have to accept it better. Thirty days is simply not enough time when no law was passed, no prosecutor's letter has been received as far as we know. A 60 or 90 days rollout letting major events take place already schedule so that every event has a last round, would have been completely fair and not harmed the ability to enforce the policy. It would enable people to seek alternatives to their livelihood.

I have always found that Lindens do not really take seriously the small people who make their living in SL. Patch Linden once made men's clothes although we don't know his avatar or business name, at least we in the general public. Given his "learning on the job" trajectory as to the acquiring of graphics and management skills, I would have to imagine that store of his was some significant income for him at one time. Maybe not. Maybe he's a Trustifarian although I hardly think so, or he wouldn't be in Sl. Draconian measures as to economy and speech are rooted in insecurity from both old and new Lindens. What is driving it? This remains to be discovered.

 

 

 

Loony Luna Bliss Just Has Two Questions to Answer But Won't Answer Them and Spouts Nonsense about Nanobots

Loony Luna has put this in a comment, but I'll answer it in a post so it doesn't fall from view:

Prokofy, I fear there has been a grave misunderstanding between us. I entered into the thread to challenge you regarding the demonization you frequently exhibit toward all technology. When I spoke of animats related to artificial intelligence I was referring to nanobiotechnology, and I asked you to look the word 'animats' up for a clearer understanding. This refers to the way 'tiny robots' could help us medically in the future, and is a very exciting field. Instead, you lumped me in with some sort of technocommunism ideas of yours by accusing me of being part of some kind of techno-cult, and I received the following message from you, which you failed to mention here in your blog: " Prokofy Neva: Coming into a thread about finding facts regarding griefers, and spouting your theories, which I don't support at all as they are fascistic, is a form of harassment itself. It's not about you "disagreeing with my ideas." It's about harassment with your theories that only support griefing in the end, in a thread seeking ways to curb them. So I saw what you did there. It's not merely a derail. It's a form of harassment with ideas that you seek because you imagine they give you power or your group power or some cult power but they are abusive to others. You have not been democratically elected in a liberal democracy under the rule of law to provide your "help" on "AI"." Basically, you are saying here that I'm an abuser...a facist, a harasser, supporting griefing, part of some sick cult, trying to circumvent democracy or rule of law. THIS was what I responded to. I guess you forgot about the above message from you?

Let's see if we can try again to deal with this SHEER IDIOCY, shall we? 

What you see here is a clear exhibition of someone so caught up in various half-assed spiritual and tech cults that they can't recognize that their ideas are -- to put it charitably -- "alternative".

They imagine they are "the norm" and "standard" and "OK" and the rest of us are hopelessly mired in FUD -- Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.

Challenging tech cults isn't "demonizing" -- it's challenging tech cults that need to be challenged, like you'd challenge Scientology (which tech cults often themselves love to demonize, and understandably so) or challenge Moonies or challenge the Catholic Church because you don't like their beliefs about gays. (My answer to that is: go over to the Episcopalian Church then. They allow gays, they even have gay priests and they have a very similar liturgy. Instead of demanding that a mainstream religion change to your alternative views, go to the alternative).

YOU challenge things all the time, and sorry, YOU and YOUR BELIEFS will be challenged right back.

On this question, I'll repeat what I wrote to this sorry individual inworld which I already put in a blog post here:

[2018/02/26 20:48] Prokofy Neva: Hi, I didn't realize you were such a tech cultist, good Lord. Now here's what you have to read: https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/418728-encroachment-on-robin-loop/
[2018/02/26 20:48] Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.
[2018/02/26 20:49] Prokofy Neva: the person in that thread is named "animats" -- he's a total asshole -- oh, unless you think rape RP is fine, you may, I don't know, tech cultism often goes together with those extremities of depravity as well. Well, I don't want it on my lawn, dear : )
[2018/02/26 20:49] Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.
[2018/02/26 20:50] Prokofy Neva: you also have to see how insanely wrong and crazy the Lindens are here - the road isn't repaired, it was never my fault, my customers are struggling now, animats is a total freaking asshole, get a grip Luna, I thought you were better than this http://3dblogger.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2018/02/a-linden-injustice-robin-loop-road.html
[2018/02/26 20:50] Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.

OH, UNLESS YOU THINK RAPE RP IS FINE, YOU MAY, I DON'T KNOW, TECH CULTISM OFTEN GOES TOGETHER WITH THOSE EXTREMITIES OF DEPRAVITY AS WELL.

This statement doesn't accuse Luna Bliss of "extremities of depravity" -- it has the all important article "unless". This is like "if...then" in code, you know. 

So one more time:

LUNA BLISS, DO YOU THINK RAPE RP IS FINE, YES OR NO?

YES OR NO, LUNA BLISS, STAY FOCUSED

IS RAPE RP FINE WITH YOU? ANSWER THE QUESTION, YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED IT YET, YES OR NOT.

So let's explain once again that Rape RP is among the worst form of BDSM in SL and is legal in adult areas as a public club -- on the theory that BDSM itself is legal, so why not?

Both are to be condemned, but as I've noted before, one can posit a tolerance of BDSM as a personal choice in the privacy of one's sex life, in one's home. That privacy and individual space could in theory be posited in a liberal democratic state as a necessity for freedom.

But what happens with this cult is that they are always and everywhere trying to push outwards into the public arena to normalize themselves and undermine the legitimate rejection of their cult.

Under U.S. law and EU law, "consent" is not recognized as an exoneration from the charge of assault. God knows, the BDSM cultists and edge-casers who like to be contrarian tried to push this with an appeal of a case, I believe it was from Germany at the European Court of Human Rights, but it FAILED.

Read the law -- "consent is not a defense when assault is the offense".

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 5 states that, “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”  And that stands. You don't suborn it as a BDSM cultist by invoking "consent".

That's because actual bodily harm stands as an actuality and proof that "consent" doesn't diminish in law -- and in common sense and reality! -- and the mental assault of BDSM that might get a pass may be challenged as well if the court has reason to consider that the consent is a sham.

Note the actual real-life jurisprudence:

The criminalization of sadomasochistic behavior in R v. Brown was affirmed by the European Court of Human Rights when Brown was considered at the supranational level as Laskey, Jaggard and Brown v United Kingdom (1997). In the decision, the European Court of Human Rights held that the state unquestionably was entitled to regulate through criminal law the infliction of physical harm and the Court was not persuaded that the applicants' behavior belonged to the private morality sphere and therefore excluded from State intervention. 

So consent is not recognized. We who watch all these machinations also don't find the invocation of "consent" very trustworthy in the virtual context where it can try to get a blessing as "lifestyle" or "roleplay". There are too many cases "gone wrong". Too many calls to the police of cases in RL of desperate people. Too many "sub support groups" in SL. Too many abuse reports. Too many everythings. Too often, the person espousing BDSM as a sub has a history of sexual molestation and domestic violence. The idealogues are always trying to erase these facts.

Even so, in the SL context, as I said, one tends to concede the privacy of the bedroom as an element of the individual's freedom -- but it's on shaky ground, especially as the BDSM practitioner himself often wants to push out into taking over the public sphere -- or anywhere else he can get on a sim. That's why the sub always has to have a notice on her profile that if anyone has any "problems" with her they have to take it up with her dom -- drawing EVERYBODY into the drama that way.

So to return to the public roads of the Mainland:

The reality is, somebody trying to slyly introduce more widespread use of the RLV third-party BDSM viewer that enables you to restrain people and do other BDSM actions is merely an ideologues's efforts to normalize the cult.  That's what's underlying this ideological subterfuge and sabotage. It's not accident, comrades that my Flamingo Court Motel was chosen as a venue to start this campaigh with a provocation that the provocateur would know could ensure him maximum publicity -- and maximum punishment of me on the forums and with a 3-day ban. I truly don't care. It's very instructive to let these things play out in a virtual context so that you see what really goes on -- provocateurs with oppressive ideologies use the AR system and the forums try to subvert norms and impose their reign with the RLV viewer, even, by wacking at high profile individuals and pretending to be "helpful". This active measures agent has also made sure to have an "Excellent" on his forums avatar which he get by making various seemingly "benign" posts and likes and getting others' likes. It's such a transparently manipulative game that one scarcely needs to  comment.

There is absolutely no reason to bless this. Even the crazy Klytyna who is always ranting about the Madlands (the Mainland) says the Lindens will never go for a "kludge" -- a crappy workaround of sim seam "problems" -- involving using restraint from the RLV viewer in some fashion AND a channel which as EVEN Klytyna notes will be exploited by social misfits, i.e. griefers. This isn't rocket science.

That loony Luna keeps thinking it is rocket science, science that we should "bless" and not be afraid of is only more stark evidence of how deep in the cult she is. Once again, Luna Bliss:

ARE YOU OR ARE YOU NOT FOR RAPE RP, YES OR NO.

I think the Lindens would be within their rights to ban it as a public club or site that has mazes or some kind of build to enact these creepy fantasies out is no longer a private matter inside the home. Of course, the Lindens don't have a concept of "a reasonable expectation of privacy". They think it's fine to allow spam cars on the public roads that can go in your house or lawn. They have sometimes been known if they get a hostile AR from your enemy to go inside a PG house and remove some classic work of art that involves a nude. They're crazy that way, too. It's always about literalism and enabling your enemies -- especially if those enemies are the Lindens' friends.

I also think it's wrong to parade chained human beings at public events. It's because then WE are forced to join in, in this oppression of this other human being. We're supposed to buy the line that she has consented to it (it's usually a woman, but it can sometimes be a man). Well, we don't buy it? It's a backlash against feminism and the progress of women's rights in Western civilization. It is a cult filled with lies that starts with the claim of consent, which has so many red flags around it, and keeps going through the notion that the greatest form of love is to turn yourself into a slave obeying the commands of a narcissistic. It's a perversion of the love taught by the world's great religions which has to do with self-sacrifice, but not oppression, with "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" -- empathy -- which is really quite different than the oppressive fuck-you hedony of "an it harm none, do what ye will" -- because narcissists aren't the best judge of what is harm, you know? Ever. Certainly the hugely devious and depraved Alistair Crowley wasn't, if you read his sordid history. What did he leave behind but a lot of broken lives, and a lot of recipes for assholes in the future to break other people's lives? Nothing good.

Calling out the oppressive nature of the BDSM cult and the Rape RP cult isn't "demonization" or "not recognizing people's rights" because they don't have rights to impose this on others and even make it part of their fake shtick that they don't. But of course they do -- the BDSM personality in SL is always stamping his foot and demanding instant service and gas-lighting and pulling the football away from other people, whether they are store clerks or rentals agents. We've all seen it and of course this kind of person finds it impossible to go "out of character".

And once again, Luna Bliss, she of the Bible-reading and Ashram living and other supposedly "peaceful and benign" activities that seque into her tech cults is free to comment:

ARE YOU OR ARE YOU NOT FOR BDSM IMPOSITION ON THE PUBLIC SPHERE, YES OR NO?

ARE YOU OR ARE YOU NOT FOR RAPE RP YES OR NO?

ARE YOU OR ARE YOU NOT FOR USING RLV AS A 'WORKAROUND' TO THE SUPPOSED 'PROBLEM' OF SIM SEAMS? YES OR NO.

So let's look at the rest of this nonsense:

When I spoke of animats related to artificial intelligence I was referring to nanobiotechnology, and I asked you to look the word 'animats' up for a clearer understanding. This refers to the way 'tiny robots' could help us medically in the future, and is a very exciting field.

Actually, um, no. Anyone can go and look up animats -- I have -- and see there is DEBATE around it as there is on any artificial intelligence. I think it's no accident that the Kremlin, which represents one of the most aggressive and oppressive forces on earth, has put a lot of investment into this field as they hope to use it control people and things. Technology does have the engineers' ideologies welded into it in troublesome ways -- the lack of a "dislike" button on Facebook is one obvious example -- but technology is also wielded by coders and techs who want power over other human beings and whose ethics are lacking and skewed, to say the least. They are not regulated in a liberal democratic society and should be.

The animats field IS NOT in fact bout nanobiotechnology, that's only one sub-set of it.

Some cultists think that it's fine to have tiny robots injected in your skin and bloodstreams. I don't, and find this field totally unchallenged and unregulated and also PS not implemented but that's not an excuse to act against it.

I remember Sidewinder Linden, a Linden with cult technologies as I discovered, kept arguing strenously for nanobots, saying, why, we allow medicines into our bloodstreams, and look, they have time release mechanisms and so on and how are nanobots different?

That's surely a specious argument, as chemicals aren't coded. They are elements with properties, or mixtures of elements, with known properties. BTW not all their side effects are always known

Chemicals which are a limited substance are not at all the same as coded chips or coded anything. Code depends on the will of the coder, and one shouldn't pretend this isn't in the equation. The coder or programmer can also change the action of nanobots in a hostile way.

We already see how terribly infested the Internet and computers are with hackers who spread spam, bugs, malicious code, and cause trillions of dollars of damage. This article just talking about some of the Russian hacking gives you an idea of how vast this damage is, and how much it affects lives. The malice of hackers is enabled in several ways -- by the same kind of thinker and persona being on the other side of the firewall as the computer security person whose ideology is often no different, and who tends to blame poor security rather than the malice of hackers for problems -- the inverse of the rule of law as it has been established for ages. The coder and hacker do not recognize any rule of law over THEMSELVES.

"Mathematics makes the state obsolete," sneers Andrea Shepherd of Tor, a former Linden. That about sums up the sheer lawlessness of the crypto-anarchist and their total indifference to others and their privileging of their own whims as the authoritarianism by which we must rule. PS Andrea savaged another Twitter user who *rightly* criticized her arrogant bullshit and Tor's abusiveness by mocking her on Twitter and blatantly mischaracterized his satirization of her as "sexism" and "misogyny".  This fellow, whose name was Gerasimov spelled in a l33t sort of way once kidded, "Go to the Washington Monument and jump, Andrea, Tor will save you." This was a reference to the Biblical temptation of Satan to Christ, who said "the angels will save you lest you dash your foot against a stone," telling Jesus to jump off a tower to prove He was God. But Jesus did not need to prove this, nor at Satan's bidding.

Andrea then proceeded in good Second Life fashion to ruin this guy's life, hunting him down, finding his real name, emailing his bosses, and getting him to resign from his job and leave Twitter. What a total asshole is Andrea! THIS is the totalitarianism we live under from the code-as-law crew. No thanks. 

Unlike doctors and lawyers -- professions that have board certification, societies, and ethics charters -- computer programmers have NOTHING. Their societies for "responsibility" or "ethics" in fact aren't about the ethics of THEIR OWN FIELD but about how to wield tech in some politicized aim elsewhere, against others.

So I totally get it that Luna Bliss may think nanobots are the saviour of humankind, and perhaps she has some urgent case of her own relative (she has written about her daughter on a card on her sim) where she thinks this might work. That doesn't mean that the rest of us can't criticize technology and be highly skeptical of the ethics of those we already see are hugely problematic -- like Musk and Thiel.

There's more in this vein:

Instead, you lumped me in with some sort of technocommunism ideas of yours by accusing me of being part of some kind of techno-cult, and I received the following message from you, which you failed to mention here in your blog: " Prokofy Neva: Coming into a thread about finding facts regarding griefers, and spouting your theories, which I don't support at all as they are fascistic, is a form of harassment itself. It's not about you "disagreeing with my ideas." It's about harassment with your theories that only support griefing in the end, in a thread seeking ways to curb them. So I saw what you did there. It's not merely a derail. It's a form of harassment with ideas that you seek because you imagine they give you power or your group power or some cult power but they are abusive to others. You have not been democratically elected in a liberal democracy under the rule of law to provide your "help" on "AI"."

Luna implies here that I've insulted her but it's her tech cult ideas that are the insult. Her constant heckling of me in the thread in which I'm trying to stop griefing by Woodbuy alts masquerading as my "bot" and spouting racist nonsense is simply creepy. She never condemns the Woodbury griefers. She also lacks total curiousness and empathy about how to stop this form of griefing by stopping conference calls -- something that many people want. Indeed, this feature is available on Firestorm, which Luna no doubt uses like many do. She can't explain, like others boosting Firestorm -- which she likely does as well -- why, if you CAN turn off the conference calls, hundreds of angry people harass me with claims I've spammed them. Wouldn't they shut it down after one spam and call it a day? Either they do NOT have Firestorm or hey, this is not enough. People should have the right NEVER to be conferenced. EVER. Opt-out FOREVER. What stops Luna Bliss from accepting that? Her tech cultism?

Luna is spouting sheer nonsense about me needing to take LSD -- as if that removes griefing -- and then even admitting herself that she is derailing the thread. She's merely word-salading now.

Basically, you are saying here that I'm an abuser...a facist, a harasser, supporting griefing, part of some sick cult, trying to circumvent democracy or rule of law. THIS was what I responded to. I guess you forgot about the above message from you?

Um, no, Luna Bliss, I didn't "forget" this post but I stand TOTALLY by my remarks which indeed were the proper pushback and self-defense to your weird culty heckling. If you find "the shoe fits," ask yourself if it really does?

Go back and look at your BEHAVIOR in this thread -- heckling, ridicule, stupidity, culty nonsense, with no recognition of the actual problem at hand, and no empathy for it. Note: NO EMPATHY. Because -- tech cult.

Why are you excusing griefers? You never once condemn them in this thread.

Why are you heckling me during a perfectly reasonable and normal effort to stop conference call spamming which most people don't want even if it doesn't involve griefers impersonating me with racist Trumpkin sayings.

You haven't supplied any use case for the need to spam everyone on a sim. Why are you morally blind to the problem of spam in conference calls?
Do you think just because a coder "can" and just because code "is" that we must argue backward to acceptance? Why? You likely don't feel that way about guns or the atom bomb.

THAT is the problem. You're silent on this question because evidently -- and prove me wrong here -- your tech cultism means that you must "excuse" every exploit and "allow" every coded thing. Well? 

YES OR NO, LUNA BLISS, ARE YOU FOR CONFERENCE CALL SPAMMING OR NOT?  YES OR NO.

In fact, sick tech cults do circumvent democracy and the rule of law. You're unable to invoke any actual normal real-life notions of restraint, choice, moderation. In short, a tech cultist.

But I've broken down the two questions here that you can answer in the negative IF you are not a cultist. So go ahead, I'll wait.

LUNA BLISS, ARE YOU FOR CONFERENCE CALL SPAMMING OR NOT?  YES OR NO?

LUNA BLISS, ARE YOU FOR RAPE RP YES OR NO?

Instead of spouting about nanobots and demanding that I expand my mind by taking LSD, answer those questions.

PS

So I log in after my completely unnecessary and unjust 3-day ban from the Lindens to find this message:

(Saved Tue Feb 27 15:36:02 2018)Hi :) I'm not a tech-cultist, but I'm discovering new ways technology could be used to benefit our consciousness, our spirituality. I don't have a firm enough grasp of it all to explain well just yet -- it's a lot to take in. I do understand the dangers that go with this though, and careful attention must be given along the way. With great power comes something great or horrible depending on what we do with it. Luna Bliss Virtual World Designer
[14:39] Luna Bliss: (Saved Tue Feb 27 15:40:01 2018)I think you're imagining that I condone all these punks that harass you, and I certainly do not. My comments on the forum related to your reference to organic law, and I'm very interested in artificial intelligence atm. I guess I took the thread on a kind of derail, but I'm just so enthused about what I'm learning (how technology could help us in the future with AI) that I could not help it ;0 Luna Bliss Virtual World Designer

So again, um, yeah, that's why I wrote my post about griefers exploiting the friendship consent function of calling cards? As none of us consented to have griefer bots as friends spamming us. Derp! 

And yet Luna had to come in to the thread and heckle, go off topic, ridicule and introduce all kinds of BULLSHIT simply because she COULD NOT BEAR that her tech cults were being criticized.

And rightly so.

And I'll go on doing that because in fact I have no demonstration that Luna "Bliss" has any awareness of the harmfulness of tech, if she can't even tolerate a thread on spam from bots.

I'm not enthused by artificially intelligence or the intelligent artifice that promotes it from coders who are the ones who really take power with it. Seeing their ethics-free behavior and appalling destructiveness and oppression in the last 20 year that I've been writing on this topic, I have no reason whatsoever to get all dewey-eyed and girlish and sigh about the wonders of tech. 

Luna Bliss cannot stay focused and off drugs or off the high of tech cultism long enough to answer to specific questions. I may never get answers. Or I will get answers but with some lecture. Or answers with a caveat. At this point, I have little faith in the tech cultist of having self-awareness. Bye!