Second Thoughts

Failed Linden Mainland Experiments Over the Years - UPDATED

Riderless pod spamming a Heterocera sim.

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

Jack Linden: "thankfully there will always be a mainland. v"

The nearly 20 years of Second Life's history are replete with ambitious experiments on the geographically-contiguous Mainland, both by Lindens and residents, and I think it's safe to say many of them ended in tears because of unintended consequences ("the tragedy of the commons") or damages to this or that legitimate group interest. 

There is always the inherent problem of the Lindens' contiguous Mainland and its many discontents and support tickets, way more than the minimal Linden staff can handle, and their seeking recourse in favoured resident volunteer groups who are not particularly deserving and generally serve themselves and their friends. This ultimately causes the Lindens to disband them or cease rewarding them.

The Linden Greco-Roman style palace in Tenera is a particularly vivid example. (I have my Silva Beach community across from this build in Sylvia). It housed the 8,000-strong (!) group of selected resident volunteers, managed by Lucy Linden, who were used as volunteer mentors and translators into "foreign" languages and other chores. It was essentially abandoned as a group and this Linden left the Lab, but not before one enterprising more-equal-than-others volunteer used the advantage of the land group settings to build a home in the sky for himself and his friends, not noticeable unless you happen to scan all levels of the sky regularly as I do as a nearby landlord. It's a gorgeous build and I'm for leaving it exactly untouched and for NOT reviving any volunteer groups of this nature.

This week, the ambitious owner of Operation Mainland (operation! like a war!), Feorie Friman, rolled out yet another project, involving a "subway in the sky" or metro of TP centers across the grid to "help explore historical Linden builds." It's actually another resident who has quietly and efficiently catalogued and promoted those old builds -- Aethelwine on the forums, who is also involved in the sailing community -- but Feorie is poised to coopt all that labour now into her "Operation" and "drive traffic" to old Linden builds in the hopes that, as the now-deleted thread revealed, she will be allowed either to put her stamp game in them (so far she has been blocked as the Moles favour only the BBB) or even be allowed to "repurpose" them or help in deleting and improving others. I personally don't want to play with empire-builders who work with forced and deceitful cheer combined with blatant suck-ups to Lindens (she may have mercifully removed her off-key singing tribue to the Moles) and other powers-that-be in this small pond to buff a resume that it is hard to know where else may be used. I originally took this in better faith than I do now -- I have withdrawn all my sites from "Operation Mainland" and blocked Feorie inworld.  I note that the Lindens leave her provocative and deceitful post up about what Patch Linden allegedly said about "repurposing Linden builds" but removed all my content. I do get how it works. The only way to win the game is not to play at all.

So the "subway" follows her other ambitious projects, some of which are neglected (like the stamp game, which never got Mole love, and is now sprawling and hard to follow), and others which outright failed, like the plan to buy up and "beautify" abandoned land for $1/m, and flip it as a completed "community" for slightly more $$, which didn't work because people can do this themselves for less and with less overstuffing of landscaping to save prims. Having failed to get Mole sites in her stamp game, Feorie ambitiously bought into expensive Bay City, the urban enclave built by the Moles and populated with their best friends, whose land is among the most expensive in SL. It's not clear to me that she has been lovingly received there by Maryanne McCann and the other worthies, but like draws to like.  Aggressive persistence can pay off in SL.

In recent weeks, she and other Bellisseria royalty launched an ambitious Linden-loved NatureCon, building on her recent funding (or only management of?) the Corsica South Coast venue Glastonbelli in collaboration with Bellisseria. This may or may or may not fall into disuse -- the history of Corsica Coast South, formerly Campbell Coast, has been tortured with the usual resident high-tier woes and land baron exploitations and is now going through yet another revival (I own some small amounts of land there which I rent out and sponsor some roads there).

Feorie, who was born in 2009 and took part in some little-known building projects for more than 10 years without fame, may tire completely of SL and go back to RL or to another world more suited to her ambitions (this may take awhile to come into being). Or perhaps she will live and thrive and finally obtain that Linden/Mole love she so desperately seeks.

Fortunately for us all, the Mainland is still vast enough and untilled enough that anyone can maintain or start their projects without impingement from these aggressive management types, and that's what I and others do. I maintain my 14 or so sims' worth of land across 55 regions and do not look for Linden love and try to walk around Linden indifference or hostility. I show my appreciation to them by payment of tier which I try to cover from my small rentals business and content sales.  This is still possible; I encourage you to do this all on your own without interference as it can be hard, but very rewarding. I maintain about 3 sims worth of public land open in the SL Public Land Preserve which I believe is the oldest "nature preservation" project in SL and certainly one of the largest. 

At one level, a project like the "Sky Subway" is "useful," and can't likely aspire to grid-wide or multi-continent presence unless the owner has endless resources to buy sometimes highly overpriced land. While focused on "the community" and "historical Linden sites," it *is* on resident-owned small parcels of 128 or higher to show up in search and fit a small "subway" build. Feorie might or might not use it to advertise other aspects of her business or her commerce circle's business and non-profit projects enhancing reputation. That's how SL works and it's fine -- people need to get tier paid and need to draw people to their projects in a world with crippled search and advertising capacity.

But I think it's important to pan out and take a wider look at the history of aspiring grid-wide projects and how they impact the Mainland, and mainly for the worse. It's not merely about this or that person's project. It's about the nascent Metaverse and how that replicates. Philip Rosedale has been very vocal about what the Metaverse should not be and really alone in the wilderness of Metaversal wannabee Big IT -- and that is he is adamant that it is "not for everybody," should *not* be built on blockchain; should have capacity for collaborative builds and a contiguous nature and so on.

I think he himself could focus more on inworld governance and democracy. His own world is replete of examples, some of his making, of the "tragedy of the commons" which isn't just about one person's sheep eating all the grass on the commons but about the nature of the commons itself and how it is governed. It is not merely about commercial interests but the interests of non-commercial reputational enhancement such as to gain recognition and social control in a closed society.

Here is some history.

Generally, the Lindens' formula seems to have been in the last 4 years to throw up their hands at the ills of the Mainland, some of which came from conflict vectors they themselves created, and to drive customers to Bellisseria, their zoned and managed communities with limited types of housing and landscaping and prims. Then, seeing they needed to still get reluctant Mainlanders to take the plunge to Belli if they had premium accounts (or not), they devised the BBB (Bellisseria Bureaucratic Bureaucracy) "Embassy" system, the stamp game, and NatureCon and "friendship" between their legacy customers on the Mainland and their more-resourced "Game of Homes" players in Bellisseria, and encourage more premium accounts and "exploration of the Mainland" as "things to do" is the perennial problem of all Metaversal engineers.

While these all have their pluses, they have decided minuses in that they funnel Mainland traffic to a select few groups and ignore or avidly block others, and they tend to turn the Mainland into a safari, where you make short, safe trips to culled and vetted locations in the hands of a few, and where land, if it is to be bought, is to be managed closely by select groups with restricted activities. 

But some of us do live here.  And not all of us want to stand by the roadside trying to sell our beads and glazed pottery and posing with tourists.

So let me cite some of these historical experiences over the years, not necessarily in chronological order and see if better proposals and outcomes could be sought.

o The Lindens created a "dwell" system whereby visits to people's original venues acquired points which then converted into actual monetary value in the awarding of Linden dollars, convertible to real cash. This quickly became gamed so that the most popular clubs, not necessarily the most beautiful, artistic builds, got the "dwell". On group land, the dwell could either be distributed equally to all members or accrue only to officers. Islands did not yet exist, so this was about the Mainland, and when they did come into existence, few afforded them, so it remained a primarily Mainland experience. The Lindens retired this system when they realized they weren't sponsoring art and education but wet t-shirt contests.

o The Lindens created a reputational point system with plus- or minus-ratings of points in categories like "appearance" and "building skills" which then eventually degenerated into popularity contests where people even paid for the points or held events and point parties where they could collect more points. Neg-rating became a form of griefing. The Lindens first nerfed, then removed the system.

o Now here's where it gets more interesting. The Lindens permitted a Features Voting System separate from the JIRA in which anyone could write in plain text a proposal for addition of features to SL or venues. So these ranged from "a pony in the welcome area," the famous meme directed at Lindens to "give the residents everything they want", to sandboxes or roads in continents where they were missing. This was beneficial and interesting but began to get sprawling and develop duplicates. People could still hold voting parties and even pay for votes, as they pay for "Picks," but the system was big enough to be self-correcting and not reward such gaming (the way the original Bitcoin was supposed to work). Eventually one empire-builder enamored with Capture Roleplay sites named Angel Fluffy (!) decided to take over the system.  Concerted tyrannical forces always appear in virtual worlds to make the Internet be what they want, under their dominion.

So he scripted his own system to scrape the feature voting pages and volunteered to "get rid of duplicates," creating lists for busy Lindens that they were grateful to receive. On the way, he simply removed proposals he didn't like, or as on the JIRA, felt the Lindens "couldn't do," thereby sparking a lot of dissent. The Lindens nevertheless let him "clean up" this sprawling Feature Voting System which they couldn't devote staff time to do. When some groups of people saw how one resident was allowed to change and destroy one system and saw their favourite proposals missing, and began loudly protesting, the Lindens got tired of the forums drama and one day Torley Linden simply deleted the entire system, not even allowing an archive.

 The Lindens created the telehub system, based on Philips admiration of famous urban planner Jane Jacobs. These functioned as planned to enable exploration and shopping and expansion of residences across the grid, but also became highly valued adjacent real estate selling for a fortune on the open auctions, so that only two large mall builders (Anshe Chung and Blue) began to win every high-priced auction because they had the investment of venture capitalists or their own resources. Rentals at these malls were also high priced, yet they democratized the oldbie guild system of stores very far from telehubs (which is why they vehemently protested them), in which older players would give newer creators a corner in their store until they got on their feet sufficiently to buy land themselves and attract visitors.

o Facing protest particularly from oldbies in older locations on the grid about lack of traffic to their stores, usually cloaked as concert about malls as avatar traps and builds that were laggy and hard to get around in, the Lindens built a whole new series of telehubs providing more access at least on new continents, which were more bucolic, with 4096 m2 of grassland or waterfalls instead of concrete around them. They built things like the Juice Bar in Brownlee. As fast as the Lindens could build these, the same two land barons and perhaps a handful of newer ones bought up this land.

o The Lindens sponsored a contest to win a sim without purchase price (then $1500 for islands and more for good Mainland auctioned sims) but with ongoing tier costs (also higher then). Very few residents responded, because of the high recurring fee. The famous "socialism on one sim" experiment of Neufreistadt was launched, as well as an experimental game sim whose owner then got fed up with the limitations of SL's code and performance. The socialism culminated in terrorism by one oldbie who destroyed all her builds made on the sims -- communes in this controlled world often end this way as I can attest to from personal experience -- but the group re-organized and has what is claimed as the "oldest democracy" in SL, although Luskwood is a democracy of sorts, too, and if democracy needs an adjective like "socialist" which is even hidden in this case, you can guess it's not too democratic. One of its other short-lived members more on the right-wing sidse also stirred up havoc on the forums and JIRA before leaving SL.

o The Lindens sponsored a building contest to build their inworld office by Waterhead, won by Adam Zaius' group, not surprisingly. It's one of the builds that other oldbies now itch to remove or refurbish and is no longer used.

o The Lindens promoted the SLRR and various rail enthusiast groups were born, notably the Virtual Rail Consortium in Tuliptree. I had the idea to have a building contest for a mall or park or other public property along the borders of the SLRR to encourage its use. When I publicized the contest on the forums and inworld, it was horribly griefed by people wishing to discourage any "realistic" or "business" use of SL in any way. While the Woodbury griefers and 4chan types were among them, I think there were Linden alts among them. Nevertheless one Linden (Garth Fairchang, who died in RL) gave me a model train to use in promotion. I persisted with the contest, but in the end I had to drop the "railroad" concept and awarded the build to Aliasi Stonebender who created Solar Plaza in Hartwick, and supported a resident-made railroad through 4 sims for a time. 

Meanwhile, the Lindens coopted my idea and sponsored their own contest to build railroad stations along their route, for which they would donate the land (in my plan, residents would tier their own land, but Lindens will forego income rather than let go of their favourites, through whom they hope to rule their empire, like Russians through Central Asians). Some of the most interesting historical builds resulted, such as the train station by Fallingwater Cellardoor in Neumogen.

o Another resident-made railway got a lot of Linden support and support from me in the form of donated land and through passage through rentals land. Nevertheless, this resident blighted the view with huge pillars and overpasses, forcing move-outs and abandonment, and then left SL himself, abandoning all his hard-won land. The Lindens grabbed it and dubbed it "Linden Right of Way," but never built anything on it. For a time, a clack of furry RR fans badgered me to give up land to put another railroad through, and urged the Lindens to re-start their railroad. Michael Linden appeared to mark the "Linden Right of Way" in Grote, but then not long after, was let go from Linden Lab (which was a shame, as he was a leader of the Moles and a long-time and experienced Linden). The furry caucus ranted that Lindens "sold me land" (they didn't; they auctioned some of their own protected land and a flipper bought it, and I bought it from him). To date, the "Linden Right of Way" remains fallow.

o The Lindens originally had two zoned sims, Brown and Boardman, where a 512 could sell for US $100 on the auctions, it was astounding. The same people who were in TSO's old Sim Arts, of which I was a member, Ingrid Ingersoll and Barnsworth Anubis and some others decided to "beautify" these sims and built a lot of Craftsmen-type houses to fit the suburban tree-lined streets. They began a campaign to get Jack Linden to tear down the old, dead palm trees (he removed a lot but not all of them) and re-build the marketplace to be less ugly (it now has wooden stalls that are passable) but he left a few odd old Linden things like Ryan Linden's very early prefab home which is more like a stall than a home you can move around in. The strange SL logo hand that came looming up at you from every mailbox on the properties was removed. It never really looked THAT great and its curious persistence in selling for high amounts doesn't seem justified, given that Brown is General and rents poorly. The Lindens ceased to police a rule they had there that skyboxes could not be put up in the sky (it's General) and never policed much the rule that commerce could only go in the MP area.

o The Lindens built another zoned area called Schermerhorn which also had houses to provide it a better look but residents bought the land and returned them, as they always do. This area was wildly popular and then suddenly wasn't, maybe when Linden Homes were built. The same thing happened at the sci-fi themed adult continent of Horizons, which sells for a fortune and has easements, beaches, and roads that help it look better, and even a "something to do" Linden-made game in the middle, but it has little use. Linden zoning efforts basically failed until Bellisseria, where Moles finally got the right mixture of house styles, easements, and better looking landscaping than in the original Linden Library -- and forced residents to keep homes good-looking by not allowing them to return them, although supply a half dozen or so styles in each theme to chose from.

o The Lindens retained the traffic system from the old "dwell" program, although they retired their leaderboard of the "most popular venues" as these were gamed with "camping" and other rewards system. But at a certain point they modified search to be more random and contain other algorithms not based on raw visitor numbers so that search would be "more fair". Then they began slowly to break search in many ways by incorporating Google Service Appliance. As fast as Lindens changed search, residents would develop new ways to game it and still do.

o The Lindens created a "First Land" system whereby only newbies of X age could buy 512 m2 of land to get started in SL at $1/m. They made postage stamp sheets of this land on new sims, which then quickly filled up with untended plywood and ugly builds. They tried to scatter them around more, but oldbies created alts and bought them. Soon land barons could see the advantage in making a lot of new accounts and scanning sims to buy First Land and flip it, sparking anger and protest on the forums. The Lindens tried cracking down on this, in part with their rule (which they say still applies) of "five accounts only" presumably on one credit card.

o The Lindens rolled out a map in which Anshe and other more alert land barons could see a PTP system was in the making, so they bought up telehub land and this time sold it, rather than renting it. Unaware players, thrilled with land going for sale which had previously been out of reach, bit hard. When the Lindens announced PTP and the impending removal of the telehubs, land barons, especially the bilked newbie barons protested loudly and threatened a "bait and switch" lawsuit as the auctions continued right up to the announcement, despite the plan. The Lindens offered a compensation of $7/m for all telehub land, or the prospect of entering the program for resident-run infohubs. The Lindens then rolled out new sandy coastal mainland, forcing Anshe and other land barons to now spend all the Lindens with which they had been compensated on that new desirable waterfront area, or lose business. The Lindens always win. It's their game. 

o  In the early days, the Lindens allowed 16 m2 parcels by -- imagine this! -- allowing all abandoned land to disintegrate into numerous 16-m parcels. The theory was that people on that sim would come and take only what they needed for a few extra prims. Instead, such land was abought by ad farmers and ads were placed all over, sometimes in the middle of pristine waterfront. Extortionist prices were put on the land forcing people to "buy back the view". One enterprising fellow put "Impeach Bush!" billboards on the extortion-sale land, figuring that liberal Lindens and many residents would not successfully complain about them and get action. Another less "idealistic" ad farmer just put a big happy face on his billboards. New continents began to sell far less on the auctions (back when entire sims were auctioned) because their views were so quickly despoiled. Land owners lobbied for four long years for the Lindens to develop an "ad farm" policy, which they eventually did, although it is unevenly applied today and certain seemingly non-commercial things like obelisks infest the grid even more.

o When the Lindens created the brand-new, pristine "nature" continent (then) of Heterocera, the Moth Continent with builds from the Magellan legend and the famous Moth Temple in Iris, they placed NO telehubs. You could not teleport there by any means and had to fly long distances -- which in those days was difficult across the void sims where sometimes your computer would jam or crash. Players with more expensive rigs would jeer at us newbs who needed "flying lessons". A few enterprising residents such as one on an old "colour" sim with an airplane system and another with a boat on the shore charged to haul residents to the new desirable continent. Some created "log-in lots" such as myself and charged low rents for them so that you could log right in to that continent. But without telehub transportation, sales and commerce languished. 

Forums "nature lovers" complained bitterly about teleport lag and commerce blight and land barons and urged the transportation systems not to be installed. The Lindens went all out, putting Linden trees and grass on Heterocera plots that did not count on your prim count. We were all hurtling toward "All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace" with computer drives turning into spinning flowers, when finally, a group of land dealers who had bought the land on the auctions informed the Lindens that they would dump the land and/or cease buying new land on the auctions -- those paying Linden's bills for this new continent -- if they didn't stop listening to the forums hippie caucus, made up of people who didn't own land in the area. They relented and put in about 4 telehubs only at first -- it turned out that all you needed for a telehub was an invisible prim disc, just like those made for landings on private islands, and you could put any build around it, it didn't have to be those squat brown urban uglies of the earlier era. So they put them within the Moth Temple or at Hyles Swamp. Eventually they added more as they realized "nature" wasn't selling -- people value "nature" tiered by Lindens or other residents but don't want to pay for it.

o Before there were scripted bot avatars, land barons bought up ad farms and deployed scripted boxes to scrape land-for-sale data and therefore get on top of the deals quickly -- then remain at the top of the land-for-sale list by flipping land they grabbed which had been put to sale for fire-sale prices or abandoned (whereupon they would request it). The Lindens eventually banned land bots, and some of these land flippers went out of business, but scripted boxes evidently used for land scanning (although who knows) still persist in many places.

o In the old auction system, all persons who bid on the land, as well as the winner, was visible, and therefore residents could see which land barons were deliberately bidding up prices to keep land prices in general high, and avoid them, and also see which land barons bought up smaller pieces of isolated land on sims to put extortionate prices on them to force people desperate for prims to buy them. Eventually the Lindens changed to a new auction system, based on e-bay (a founding investor of SL was Pierre Omidyar, the e-bay guy), that showed no names at all after the bid although they do briefly leave up a record of the sales so those patient enough could fly around and observe what's happening. It's still a system only a few land barons control. An effort to create resident-based auctions to try to defeat this rent-seeking failed, in part because of land barons disguised as ordinary end users as alts, and buyer's remorse leading to drama and further abandonment.

o The Lindens permitted two driverless vehicle systems, enabling the scripters to send vehicles of various kinds over the grid at will. One of them enabled some of these cars on Linden land to be purchasable, a violation of the TOS, and they also tended to crash and pile-up on other people's land. That person had most of their accounts banned. The other person was more discreet and the cars crashed less and was rewarded with selection of the system also for Linden-run events like SLB. Still, the Lindens didn't permit these driverless simplistic "pods" to spam up Bellisseria, likely because residents there wouldn't tolerate them. On the Mainland, they spam every 15 minutes and nearly 100% of them are empty. Polls I have done whether larger or smaller show significant percentages of residents oppose or don't even know about the pods, which is denied by their supporters.

o A resident concerned about the failure of vehicles at region crossings proposed a system whereby the BDSM viewer called RLV would be used to pick up residents and forcibly cross them at sim seams. This was rejected even by RLV users and the Lindens didn't adopt it, but continued to encourage grid-wide monitoring and proposals for vehicle crossings.

o The Lindens permitted a Grid Survey which used bots to scrape information on new islands, demise of old islands, and percentage of Linden and resident ownership on the Mainland. This was widely accepted as useful and interesting, but the owner faced problems both of a bot nature and of RL time needed for such a project to be constantly updated.

o Surveying the Mainland wreckage they had wrought, while paying their server and other bills, and noting that the revenue was so far less than from islands or even content sales on the MP, yet sucked up the lion's share of customer service time, the Lindens finally decided to build Linden Homes and give the residents what they wanted -- nice homes with predictable landscaping and the view never getting ruined in the commons by neighbours or barons, with plenty of roads and waterways (which are entirely missing on some newer continents, laid out hurriedly by Lindens for quick sales even as past continents filled with blight). This "Linden-Assisted Living," as it was dubbed, didn't really take off until the Lindens made bigger homes with even prettier landscaping in Bellisseria, then Fantasseria and Sakurasseria. 

o Enter the BBB, a resident created RP group aspiring to be the bureaucracy that ran municipal services in Bellisseria which was then blessed to run various public events on Linden land and an exploration system with the stamp game, which included Mole or Linden builds, some new and expressly built for stamps, and some old, to which they were added. Alone among residents, this group now has a home on a 4096 m2 parcel with 936 prims and two rez areas surrounded by water, unlike ordinary mortals with only 1024 and 351 prims, often island. No commerce is permitted as this is banned in Bellisseria -- although very active groups expressly targeting Bellisseria events have enterprisingly figured out that the way to sales through Bellisseria is to create groups and events where freebies are distributed, and then spam people with sales IMs later. The stamps had to be vetted and accepted and a kiosk issued on a discretionary basis, which meant that the appearance of new locations was slower and more controlled. A second resident group appeared (Operation Mainland) with a more democratic system whereby essentially anyone could register and upload a stamp site and provide gifts, with stamps allowed at commercial sites. This quickly acquired many more sites and traffic but wasn't tended as well, had uneven quality especially on commercially-driven sites, and could be hard to navigate if you aren't facile at Google Docs.

o The Lindens endorsed NatureCon, an ambitious event to bring together all nature recreational/explorational groups mainly from the BBB and related circles with LDPW endorsement and participation and a system for build applications and booths which remained closed and at the discretion of the organizers. This event, coupled with the BBB stamp game, places an emphasis on "Bellisseria as premium account ownership for residences, Mainland as exploration and recreation," while steering it away from  Mainland *residences* -- which spawns the need for more customer service and unleashes protests about the blight induced by ad farms and grid-wide would-be monopolists. If you only temporarily visit the Mainland on a controlled tier, what's to complain about? 

o The Lindens tolerated the Get the Freight Out game (founded in 2016) which has deployed miles and miles of concrete trucking terminals across the grid, causing those nearby not to buy or to move out. There isn't any perceptible link between GTFO and LL -- possibly they aren't compliant enough -- and they do not appear to have been "blessed," but let's just say that unlike the breedables space, where there are plenty of other breedable companies besides KittyCats and Teegle horses, there aren't any other transportation games that have ever gotten started. Yes, this seemingly "free game" in which the players tier the land their huge concrete monsters are built on, does have a HUD and add-ons you have to buy to play. GTFO often appears with big ad billboards and near ad farms, and that precise relationship has been documented in some cases with GTFO management but also remains unclear.

For months on end, due to the Virtual Railroads Consortium leader Qie reselling some 16ms I had in fact given to him back in the day to GTFO operatives, I had a giant ugly ad billboard in the middle of the sim next to my rentals. So I built a brick wall on it. Another VCR operative put a "night watchman" with a chair on another 16m2 roadside and kept returning the (invisible) prim on a build of one of my tenants, mystifying him. I finally got Qie who I had always respected and found helpful to stop the specious prim returns, whatever their "encroachment," but the GTFO took a lot longer to get off the sim. It was most definitely the billboard of a GTFO owner, not leader, whose land was right next to their headquarters. There has been a changing cast of characters owning GTFO over the years, and one of the current owners and operators, Famous Dismantled, a fae, claims she is conccerned about 16m2 blight on the old Teen Grid (evidently she means the Sith obelisks -- agreed). 

I also dealt with a witless booster of GTFO on the forums claiming that only "some" of the builds are warehouses when anyone can see with their two eyes all over the grid that MOST of the builds in this FREIGHT game are WAREHOUSES with acres of concrete. The fact that a few farmhouses or parks or whatever are mixed in to claim otherwise doesn't cut it. Again, I'm all for having "things to do" and I don't complain where I haven't bought the view. In Adscita, until I had to deal with Winning Witte's machinations, I turned my back to a GIANT and LAGGY GTFO hulking over the lake there and put out rentals which I ran for a few years more or less happily. But it is a buzz kill. That 2000 regular players in the group get to despoil the view and drive away residential lots for numerous sims across the grid is a key example of "tragedy of the commons". Long ago, the Lindens could have made zoned areas -- beach, urban, mountain, country, off-beat -- as The Sims Online did with naming categories of sims. Then GTFO could go on the urban sim along with all those giant tall buildings that ruined the value of Nautilus in its early days and forced me and tenants out after laying out $50,000 Lindens on the auction for a 1024.  Of course they didn't have the staff for policing zoning, and weren't content to leaving it to the Gladys Kravitz's of SL to AR. Then came Bellisseria, where zoning is built in.

I will likely think up more, and so can you, but you can see the patterns. Monopolists aspiring either to crude money-making schemes -- or more typically, more sophisticated reputation-enhancement schemes that lead to social influence and power -- get the Lindens' ear (within the staff, among residents-turned-Lindens, or residents chosen by Lindens for that "successful failure" combination of "competence but compliance."

Fortunately, entire swathes of Mainland (not to mention the bulk of the grid, private islands) remain out of the reach of the Monopolists and the Influencers, especially in the non-English speaking world, and there are still wild and untilled vistas where you can build your dream. For how long?

 

Who Rules

Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

This was written in 2010 after some conferences on the Metaverse but not published for some reason.

Obama doesn't rule America, or senators or Supreme Court judges or your assemblyman or Dad. No, there are three types of people who rule America, and you would never know it -- if you didn't think about it a little.

One is exemplified by a kid with a name like Matt or Jeff -- I'll find it in a minute -- with an elaborate floral tatoo on his forearm, tall, with a shock of black hair and a friendly demeanor, who appears as a dinosaur-type creature, working as a mod in Webosaurus from the company Metaverse Mod Squad. Another is a cheerful, heavyset woman in glasses with intelligent brown eyes who is from Sony Online Entertainment, her name is Laralyn McWilliams, the Creative Director of Free Realms. And of course there's the lanky geek guy in the glasses with the boyish cowlick, owlish eyes, slightly receding chin, and and deadpan grin -- Will Wright, inventor of the Sims.

These are the types of people who really rule America, because they shape the hours an hours and HOURS of time online that your sons and daughters -- and YOU -- spend in their games or worlds. They are the game inventor or dev, the game manager or creative director, and the mod -- the person moderating the behaviour of the users. These three kinds of people have a powerful influence over the education of your offspring -- and your mindset, too! -- and they have way, way, WAY more influence over your thinking and your children's thinking and patterns of behaviour than family, school, or certainly church or club. It is their practices of governance -- best or worse, as we'll see - that determine how people see themselves as individuals and in groups, and see themselves as part of larger systems or civilizations, such as they are.

These three types of people -- and you've seen them all and known them all by various names -- really shape our real and our simulated lives, no question. They decide whether you can gank newbs with impunity because it will be allowed as "fun" (the practice known as "ganking" means to deliberately kill newbs or harass newbs in large numbers -- just because you can), or whether you will be punished for it. Whether you can swear or not swear. Whether you are processed along this incentivizing channel or that one. Whether you get one time-out or a three day ban for whatever is perceived as bad behaviour. Whether you are encouraged to report on your neighbour surreptitiously about what you think he is doing bad -- or not. Whether you have fun, or are miserable, but addicted. Every facet of your game or world experience is controlled by these people's notions of governance, and yet they have little training, awareness or conceptualization of real-life governance (they aren't politicians or political scientists or business managers). They are rulers online in the virtual worlds, and they rule with an iron hand, usually assisted by code-as-law, but also a playbook of what they feel are "best practices" outlining how game publishers should treat their players, and what kind of beings those players must become to fit into the worlds they make.

Will Wright doesn't think, like your church or your Dad, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing if a mafia forms to bully others, or whether a marriage breaks up online over the Sim capacity for stepping out on your real mate. It's not really his problem. It's emergent gameplay, and while he might personally feel a bit rueful about it, it's not something he *works at* changing *as a game function*. If he did -- he'd be the first to tell you! -- the game wouldn't be fun. Platforms, pixels, code, mechanics, blowing stuff up -- that's all just a lot more interesting to him than morality, which isn't necessarily a reproach, just a report.

Laralyn McWilliams, who gave the most absolute best workshop I have ever heard in my life on governance (and that includes a lot of UN and OSCE workshops lol) -- every single game god should take her hour-long course -- likely doesn't think terribly deeply whether her system is sufficiently liberal and democratic. She can't; she has a world to run -- it has horrible exigencies that few of us mortals truly appreciate. And the Webosaurus guy, as he interacts with kids 10 years his junior, trying to round them up to pursue more positive activities than just huddling and gossiping and possibly sexting, which obviously isn't allowed, doesn't ponder heavily whether he is part of a collectivizing experiment that might have a down side. Moderating is just what you *do* in worlds. You *need* mods. Everyone *expects* mods. Mods are inherent. You could have a world without mods. Mods need to mod. Otherwise, you'd get Lord of the Flies. Right?

The Famous "I don't get it, and they certainly don't" Forums Post In Which the Term 'FIC' Was Created

You never know if the Lindens might get the idea to delete the forums archive. So I have kept a copy of the famous post by Pahoa Jade, still my neighbour all these years in Carlisle, who "took it to the forums". It's easier to read at that link than here for some reason.

Second Life Forums Archive > Previous Forums Archive

I don.t get it, and they certainly don't
Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115	01-01-2005 05:09 You can tell by my number of postings that I dont post very often for being here over a year. And very rarely do I start a thread. I tend to be quiet about most things and usually let the real concerned parties battle it out. This happens to be my battle (started by someone else) and as my friends can tell you, I maybe the quiet one of the group but I never back down from my own battles. As a lot of you know we (Jazzy Jade Wolf Group) recently moved from Lusk. Part of what compelled us to move after over a year there, was the fact that builds around us virtually cut access to our land from two sides and a third side was the edge of the world. As these builds began to expand we waited patiently to see the outcome. You see, we do support the fact that it is your land you can do what you want with it. Well, when it got to the point that we felt closed in and knew we would be happier somewhere else, we evaluated what our mission was and what we wanted to accomplish business wise. In short we moved. During the time this was happening we didnt critisize the builds didnt call names or degrade the missions of others, we respected their freedom to play THEIR game as they saw fit. So we moved on. We had already built in Eagan to combine our Jade Wolf and Jade Passions stores. I feel it is a build to be proud of. We have received many compliments from our neighbors there. So now we come to Carlisle. We found a beautiful Island there. We were the second to buy in the sim after it was carved up for resell after the auction. Many of the sims around us were still for sale also. We (Shad, Crim and I) hung over the Island and talked in voice about how we should buy and what our vision would be. Do we Buy most of the island and risk someone buying the water around it and building on the waterway? Do we buy a potion of the island and as much water around on our end as we can to preserve the waterway? You see we had almost 23K in land allotment available to the group. There was one underlying vision... to build as unobtrusivly as possible and prevent the same thing happening here that we had happen in Lusk. We opted for preserving the water and as much as we could of the island. Well, we have been working very hard lately and wanted a break before we built. So, (as I state in my profile) Carlisle is our playground right now. We are great fans of Starax's creations. So naturally, we decided to take advantage of the 5000+ unused prims we had and enjoy the sculptures we had before we started building. We began putting out our favorites, right now I believe we have around 8 out. We also spent a day replacing almost 200 Linden trees one by one with exact replicas on our portion of the island to preserve the beauty. We have had people stop to admire and comment on the sculptures. If you dont know Starax's work, it ranges from serious to whimsical and sometimes quirky, but always awesome. I believe we have one of the biggest private displays of his work in SL right now. Ok, so, now that I've laid the background out, if you're still with me thank you. We come to my battle. Really the groups but I was the one approached so I am addressing it now. Yesterday I received an IM from a neighbor in the next sim to ask if we would sell our land in the water adjoining theirs. This is a location we have put some sculpture, we made sure it was located so that it would not hinder water traffic. I inquired as to why they wanted the land. I was told it was to preserve the view and someone they had just sold land to was unhappy with what we had placed there and had requested their money back. This party kept asking what our plans were and said they were concerned given the size of our business, they didnt want a big ugly store there but could live with dolphins. I explained that we didn't have concrete plans for our build but yes that spot was planned for a display of Starax sculptures. Well, this person was very insistant that I define our plans. I reiterated that I had told them early on that we were undecided. And I hadnt judged their builds or use of land as they shouldnt mine. I was told we were obviously some kind of animal lovers and it made them wonder what our plans were. WTH does that mean? I pointed out I may not agree with their builds and the person complaining was more obtrusive in their build that overhung the water than we were. I was told they had some of the best builders in SL do their builds and I shouldnt trash them I explained I wasnt trashing the builds but the layout and density. Well, needless to say I ended the convo saying I think this disscussion is done and if you leave us in peace, we will do the same for you. Cause it boils down to it is our land. OK my peeve here is... Why, are some people so narrow minded as to think their vision or what they choose to do with their land should take presidence over others? Why, after they buy land do they feel they have a right to demand what other earlier buyers around them plan to do with their land? Who are they to presume what I plan to do with my land is unacceptable? Or, worse yet, presume to know what my plans may be and judge it by that? When I see what I feel is an ugly or monstrasorous build I may comment on it to my friends, but I never presume to tell the builder or owner that I am qualified to judge them or demand the removal of said build. I recognize the fact that we all pay a fee for our land and are entitled to use it as we see fit. If it doesnt fit our vision we move on and make sure we cover the bases to ensure we get what we want. So in short, if you're concerned, get to know your potential neighbors, learn their vision before you buy. If your main concern is resell and you dont take the time, dont complain later and STFU. OK rant over. TY for listening. I feel much better now getting that off my chest. < back to the unobtrusive observer. P _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle.
Huns Valen Don't PM me here. Join date: 3 May 2003 Posts: 2,749	01-01-2005 06:51 Some people act stupidly sometimes and you can put them on ignore. I just did that to someone today on IRC and I am quite happy with the results.  _____________________ [ huns? || words || 1TBS KREW || VHI Aircraft || Whitepaper on Aircraft Physics ] Make yourself and your objects immune to llPushObject().
Rose Portocarrero Here to look cute Join date: 23 May 2004 Posts: 168	Happy to be your neighbor! 01-01-2005 07:26 Dear Pahoa; As your next door neighbor in Eagan, I'll be the first to say how pleased we were that the Silver Wolf store blended so well into the residential aspect of our neighborhood. You all took your time and thought it out well. I don't even notice a store next to us when at home, and I do spend a lot of time on that property. We were worried that we would see a large, to the prop line box with flashing particles and spinning things right and left. What we got was beautiful sculpture while you were building the store, and then a very well layed out, low lag tasteful build next to our cabin. In sum, we couldn't have asked for better neighbors next to our home, and I hope you all STAY there a long time to help protect OUR property as well as the other homes in our sim. Oh and yes, we DO in fact walk next door and shop.  Happy New Year! -Rose
Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372	01-01-2005 07:33 *hugs* Pahoa!! I have rarely heard you vent, so I know this must have really gotten to you. You have many fans and admirers (as does the rest of your business group) and I hope you won't let anyone make you upset for long. You are a great asset to the SL community! *HUGS again*!  _____________________ *hugs everyone*
Ashlynne Poole Huggles Queen Join date: 30 Oct 2004 Posts: 168	*hugs* 01-01-2005 08:07 I don't know you but in reading this i can feel your obvious pain. It is your land after all and build what you want. The fact that you and your group obviously care about the surrounding area says alot.....wish more people did. Keep your chin up! *hands you a cookie* Ash
Elle Pollack Takes internets seriously Join date: 12 Oct 2004 Posts: 796	01-01-2005 08:08 I probably know who you talked to and what neighboring land he owns. I have a stake in those plots myself which you can probably figure out by checking the owners of certian buildings in that area. Personaly, I like your build.  A giant gorilla and a group of giant...are those birds or flying horses? I forgot...may not be natural (the theme of the neighboring land), and some people might not like them there, but I think they're very well built and even rather attractive. (Course, I live on an island of artists and I'm used to a sculpture garden in my back and/or front yard). I've talked to the person about this before when he asked my opinion of it and I hope he realizes that other people will probably share my view...and I hope I'm right, because I'd really love to see his project succeed.
Vestalia Hadlee Second Life Resident Join date: 19 Oct 2004 Posts: 296	Agree Totally 01-01-2005 08:58 From: Rose Portocarrero Dear Pahoa; As your next door neighbor in Eagan, I'll be the first to say how pleased we were that the Silver Wolf store blended so well into the residential aspect of our neighborhood. You all took your time and thought it out well. I don't even notice a store next to us when at home, and I do spend a lot of time on that property. We were worried that we would see a large, to the prop line box with flashing particles and spinning things right and left. What we got was beautiful sculpture while you were building the store, and then a very well layed out, low lag tasteful build next to our cabin. In sum, we couldn't have asked for better neighbors next to our home, and I hope you all STAY there a long time to help protect OUR property as well as the other homes in our sim. Oh and yes, we DO in fact walk next door and shop.  Happy New Year! -Rose The first thing I see when I login to my land is Pahoa's Eagan store. That store *is* the view from my land. Bottom line always is, what you do with or on your land is your own business, and if a neighbor doesn't like it, such is life. That said, I lack sufficient imagination to believe anyone could have complaint with anything this group builds anywhere. Even when the Eagan store was under construction, their time consuming effort to aesthetically blend into the existing neighborhood was delightfully obvious to me and the people I know who live around me. They also happen to be a nice batch of people. They can build anything next to me anytime, and I'll be a happy woman.
Elle Pollack Takes internets seriously Join date: 12 Oct 2004 Posts: 796	Because there's disagreement under the surface 01-01-2005 12:03 (and because I'm trying to prevent a possible flame war that I believe will only hurt both sides, and can be resolved peacefully if both sides are willing to be reasonable) This is a snapshot of the view from my building in the neighboring sim (adjusted a bit to avoid a tree in the line of sight.) What do people think of it? Could you stand to look at it once? Could you stand or even enjoy living next to it? (The cars are a recent addition which the other landowner is claiming were placed to deliberatly annoy him. I do not know if this is true or not but I do think they're a bit much myself. The rest of the picture, I like)
Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698	King Kong 01-01-2005 13:21 From: someone Why, are some people so narrow minded as to think their vision or what they choose to do with their land should take presidence over others? Indeed hehehe. Note that it is Pahoa Jade who has decided to take this discussion public -- which I didn't -- so I'm happy to tell my side of the story. She's presented her side, but it contains exaggerations and fabrications. Let the community discuss it. I purchased the Ravenglass sim to make it a planned residential community with an effort to protect the views. It seems there is a crying lack of such areas in SL, with many people moaning and groaning that their views are constantly wrecked by ugly builds. Everyone seems paralyzed and powerless in the face of the bad choices of a few, and it seems like it's time to push back. So I've been pushing back in a variety of ways -- raising the issue of ugly builds on the forums, suggesting that the use of negrate might be in order here and there, and also putting my money where my mouth is by attempting a residential development myself. I'm new and I'm learning so I'm happy to hear any criticism about the development decisions. I'm quite aware that my controversial statements about big ugly builds already on the forum have pre-fueled Pahoa's ire, because she assumed the worst -- that I might organize some sort of public condemnation of her build or a collective negrate of her builds which in fact I had absolutely no intension of doing, have never done, and have merely raised as a possible public tool to solve chronic problems in SL. I first contacted Pahoa very politely to ask her if she'd be willing to sell part of the water around her substantially sized plot with an island and lots of water. Sometimes people are willing to sell patches like that if you don't build on them -- it's on another sim so it really does no good except to protect the view and water access. She then asked why I wished to buy. I said I was contacting her on behalf of an unhappy customer who was wondering if she should move and sell her land back to me because there were now builds in water that she thought mistakenly was Linden water. (I could note that most land owners wouldn't bother to take up an issue like that, much less buy back land from an unhappy customer.) The builds then consisted of a dolphin, a pegasus, and a hawk grabbing a fisherman. They're not my taste -- they're kitsch and many good architects would recognize them as such, but they aren't obtrusive and indeed, I'd favor freedom of creativity over some kind of heavy zoning restrictions. Knowing that King Kong lurked on the other side of the parcel, however, it was right to ask whether more large builds were coming. My customer didn't really care so much about the animals, but seeing that a business had taken over the parcel, she wanted to know if a big store was going up. Neighbours are such a wild card that it's a reasonable question to ask -- she wanted to know whether to move and sell before wasting time on a build. All of this was merely an inquiry for information purposes -- to help this customer decide what to do. It was no imposition on Pahoa Jade and Jazzy Jade -- merely an inquiry to help a decision-making process. Instead of just answering "yes, I plan a big store" or "no, it's just those animals," Pahoa accused me of merely wishing to chop up land and sell it at a high price, and of plopping houses down, crowded next to each other. She had absolutely no basis for this claim. And note that Pahoa has lost nothing. She has her freedom and her land and is building exactly what she wishes -- even adding some platforms with cars in the middle of the ocean LOL no doubt out of spite. Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer. She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property or she'd know that this is not some get-rich-quick scheme. It has a large commons that keeps at least 10,000 acres unsold and preserved, including a large part of the waterfront. Instead of selling off the island immediately and risk having a laggy club or store, I'm trying to keep it in the community, even buying waterway into the next sim to ensure its view. To make it affordable, sure, there are 1024 or 1536 plots so that people can stay within tier zones. No, not all of us can afford to live the lives of the rich and famous players who have been in the game for 2 years selling their high-tech creative wares. Yes, there has to be room for others in the game. Pahoa next honed in on the nature of my customer's build -- it "jutted out into the water" she said although of course when you sell waterfront land, you have to sell it with water. I'll leave the public to judge whether that customer made a good build or not -- obviously Pahoa doesn't want judgement of her own group's builds but is freely dispensing judgement of others LOL. There's a larger issue here not specific to Pahoa. I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. But the Lindens roll out brand-new sims every week. There's plenty of space. If someone inquires about a purchase or an intention merely to protect their own view, it should be understood as that, and not treated as some kind of intrusive crime. SL is extremely volatile and I often find that people are only too happy to sell their land and move on even when they've just bought. As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. I started Ravenglass as an experiment. If you buy a sim and put in beautiful houses and try to make it affordable, can you protect people's investments? I've bought up surrounding land to protect views, I've watched as all kinds of large hulks have gone up around us. This isn't just my problem, but a public problem and one for the Lindens. Can there be residential sims in which people's investments are protected? The jury is still out. One thing I know is that these issue need PLENTY of democratic, public discussion. Many views and interests need to be taken into account. An accusatory attitude and a haughty sense of eminent domain for the older, wealthier players are not the last word on this story. I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. They've done a fantastic job of making an interesting and exciting and alluring world. They've unleashed their creativity and put out all kinds of whimsical articles, animations, particles, scripts, and so on. They see SL as a kind of never-ending Neverland. You unleash your imagination -- and away you go. But that's not what the game is for everybody. But on the other side there's another kind of player base who basically just want a replica of RL. They want quaint homes with realistic vistas with beautiful sunsets. They want to go to their patch of virtual real estate with they cyber honies and be left alone. They don't want lag, lights, particles, malls, clubs -- and even the most creative whimsy -- except when they go visit another sim. There are going to be more and more of those kind of players as the game turns from a beta for 10,000 tekkies into a virtual world serving a million customers. Those millions are not creative tekkies. They are customers -- YOUR customers -- and you have to think of their needs and interests, too. I see the land barons caught between these two groups and hated by everyone, although all they have done is pursued business interests and practices that actually serve the mass taste represented by the second group of RL-realistic type of players. A possible solution is to zone new sims. They zones can be "residential" or "business" or "entertainment" or "experimental" -- and they have to be clustered because the next sim is always right next to your sim and in your view. When people buy next to an 'experimental' sim -- possibly those are the Linden-subsidized ones -- they know they might see flaming particles and King Kong. When they buy in a residential sim, they know their FPS will not be lagged by a club with strobe lights. Player-based zoning will probably prove unworkable precisely because one player involved in a zoning issue is likely to take personal insult and escalate to a flame war, instead of realizing this is a common problem we all share that can be discussed democratically and publicly with solutions found.
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 13:46 From: Prokofy Neva My customer didn't really care so much about the animals, but seeing that a business had taken over the parcel, she wanted to know if a big store was going up. Your customer has no business making such demands. From: Prokofy Neva As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. So what? It is evident you want make money regardless of your neighbors, and are quick to judge others while shielding yourself from criticism. _____________________
Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698	01-01-2005 13:52 From: someone Why, after they buy land do they feel they have a right to demand what other earlier buyers around them plan to do with their land? Excuse me, but in fact Ravenglass was purchased first because it was at auction first. Your purchase followed because it was simply auctioned later -- the public record easily establishes that. But it really doesn't matter. The customer who purchased one lot in Ravenglass had a simple question -- are you going to build big in the water? Because then she could decide to move or not. From: someone From: someone Who are they to presume what I plan to do with my land is unacceptable? Or, worse yet, presume to know what my plans may be and judge it by that? Er....I dunno...because you put a giant King Kong in the water? That would be my guess. Not really a presumption, just....a King Kong! From: someone When I see what I feel is an ugly or monstrasorous build I may comment on it to my friends, but I never presume to tell the builder or owner that I am qualified to judge them or demand the removal of said build. I recognize the fact that we all pay a fee for our land and are entitled to use it as we see fit. Well, that's where we disagree! I do think that large ugly builds in the public view are justifiably commented on by the public at large. And I didn't call your build monstrous or ugly or judge it, I asked merely whether we could expect a big store or a big King Kong right next to our water. There's a huge difference. You're making a King Kong out of...a few meters of water. From: someone So in short, if you're concerned, get to know your potential neighbors, learn their vision before you buy. If your main concern is resell and you dont take the time, dont complain later and STFU. Well, er, we did buy there first. In fact an alt of mine had a very friendly conversation on the first day of your build, asking about your boats, whether you built them. And I did inquire politely yesterday what your "vision" was seeing that you were a business, and a business with a King Kong in the water LOL. It's not complaining later, and no, I won't STFU, it's my world, too : )
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	Hugs All Around 01-01-2005 14:08 *hugs Prokofy* I think it's great you have raised these issues publicly, even though that wasn't your original intent but I guess your neighbor had to fume. The picture Elle has displayed looks like a lot of clutter -- too many styles jammed into too much water space, and a King Kong to boot. It's actually an example of how a picture looks worse than the real thing, however, because you can always adjust your draw distance. The hawk and the fisherman are especially gruesome to look at -- but let's be glad there's no sculpture of entrails on the rocks! What was once an unspoiled waterway vista where you could sit on your dock and look out to the Linden sea is now filled with kitsch -- I agree. But you should be grateful it's not a huge square laggy club with strobe lights -- it can get worse...it DOES get worse! There really doesn't seem to be any dispute here. Pahoa has called your development crowded and middle-class, and you've barked at her for being too whimsical in a public space. She's obviously an older, connected player who will get everyone on her side judging from all her *hugs*. Many reading this privately think they actually wouldn't buy land next to King Kong, but because it's Jazzy Jade's King Kong they'll go to the mat! *Hugs Prokofy again.* Meanwhile, buyers at Ravenglass know that they have a developer who will not abandon them to the fate of Fay Ray and King Kong, but will try to intercede on behalf of their view concerns. *Hugs Hugs Hugs Prokofy especially because he is my alt!*
Sparkle Skye Second Life Resident Join date: 27 Oct 2004 Posts: 1,016	01-01-2005 14:14 I disagree I think a customer has every right to inquire what is planned so they can make an informed decision. To say a customer has no rights is a rather cavlier attitude, as ultimatley it is the customer that keeps this world going. Without customer the shops would close land would not be bought as there would be no profits. I t does not mean however that the seller is obligated to refund monies unless that was part of the agreement.
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 14:26 Sure, its ok, if a neighbor has a plan. If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them. Things change. _____________________
Rickard Roentgen Renaissance Punk Join date: 4 Apr 2004 Posts: 1,869	01-01-2005 14:48 lol you all like to write way too much. but it was worthwhile writing I'll give ya that. I know starax' work and Pahoa's and Shadows. I'm picky, hard to please and generally cranky when it comes building. It must be perfect! I like all the afformentioned people's builds. oh sometimes they're not perfect , but always aesthetically pleasing. Ignore the dumbass. hehe, I do feel his pain though. he'd really like to have nothing but trees out his window but he doesn't have enough money to buy the land to enforce that. That's where he's coming from, but he's still a chuckle head. _____________________
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	01-01-2005 15:05 Re: he'd really like to have nothing but trees out his window but he doesn't have enough money to buy the land to enforce that. That's where he's coming from, but he's still a chuckle head. Hehehe ROFL Buying a whole sim and a lot of the parcels in neighbouring sims means he doesn't have enough money ROLMAO.
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	01-01-2005 15:08 Re: "If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them." Er...Weedy? What part of "impose vision" did you see in this story? I don't see Prokofy imposing any vision, he's instead asking what the neighbor's plans were, full stop. If she is so nervous and skittish that such a merely informative question asked on behalf of a customer sends her into paroxysms of indignation, well, excuse us all for living.... Ummmm....would building a King Kong in the sea perhaps fall into the category of "impose vision"? I dunno....
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 15:22 From: Dyerbrook Parvenu Re: "If the neighbor does not, then its not right to impose vision upon them." Er...Weedy? What part of "impose vision" did you see in this story? I don't see Prokofy imposing any vision, he's instead asking what the neighbor's plans were, full stop. If she is so nervous and skittish that such a merely informative question asked on behalf of a customer sends her into paroxysms of indignation, well, excuse us all for living.... Ummmm....would building a King Kong in the sea perhaps fall into the category of "impose vision"? I dunno.... Ummm From: Profoky Neva even adding some platforms with cars in the middle of the ocean LOL no doubt out of spite. Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer. She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property Sounds like an imposition to me. _____________________
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	01-01-2005 15:30 Re: "Sounds like an imposition to me." Ummm...how do you figure it was an imposition? A developer is asked to buy back property and makes an inquiry -- that's an imposition? But King Kong....that's not an imposition? And we didn't even raise King Kong at all originally. Have you all been in this game too long?
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 15:33 OMG a GORILLA! I demand my money back! What next? OMFG, a STORE!!!!! The sky is falling. C. Little _____________________
Dyerbrook Parvenu Second Life Resident Join date: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 28	01-01-2005 15:42 re: "I demand my money back! What next? OMFG, a STORE!!!!!" Yeah, that's what that customer did, she wanted her money back. She had bought for the view : ) Some people do that, and they value their tier. They'd like to spend $5 or $8 more on top of the subscription, and not buy a black cat in a sack. People are funny that way. But then, they don't own stores all over SL so I guess they have a different attitude than the fuck-you eminent domain-my-freedom-uber-alles that many older players have : ).
Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255	01-01-2005 15:51 From: Dyerbrook Parvenu But then, they don't own stores all over SL so I guess they have a different attitude than the fuck-you eminent domain-my-freedom-uber-alles that many older players have : ). Idiotic statement. My case in point. From: Pahoa Jade Well, this person was very insistant that I define our plans. I reiterated that I had told them early on that we were undecided. And I hadnt judged their builds or use of land as they shouldnt mine. I was told we were obviously some kind of animal lovers and it made them wonder what our plans were. WTH does that mean? She gave her answer. Clear and simple. You didnt get your way, so you get all pissy and make harsh irrational statements. I understand 100% why she posted here. _____________________
Tcoz Bach Tyrell Victim Join date: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 973	01-01-2005 15:52 For what it's worth, in a land dispute, ownership is king unless you are violating the ToS. Any request you entertain from a neighbor is a courtesy. Two people moved into Natoma/Clara, and didn't like my land. They gave me grief about it. Wanted to know my plans. Etc. I told them I'm sorry but I'm not interested in whatever it is you want me to be interested in (some "planned community" or something like that). They seemed to believe they had some right to impose their will on mine, and griefed me heavily with pictures of jackasses and the like. The Lindens seemed to side with them insofar as sending an "official" Linden rep to try and mediate the whole thing by way of getting me to make concessions. In the end I simply said that if I'm not violating the ToS, leave me alone. And that is exactly what happened. You want to lay down the law, buy a sim. Otherwise anything goes, within the confines of the ToS. You may not like "that attitude", or whatever, but that's just hard cheese in the semi-working world that is SL. Anything else is a waste of breath. _____________________ ** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698	01-01-2005 16:15 From: someone They seemed to believe they had some right to impose their will on mine Funny how a neighbour's simple inquiry about plans, or suggestion to join in something perhaps more low-impact gets transmogrified into "an imposition of will" by the me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL. Sounds more like YOU are the one imposing your will merely because you bought land, with not a thought in your head about being a good neighbour. The Lindens were right to try to mediate -- but they can't spend their lives doing that. Yes, the fuck-all attitude is really at a heart of a lot of these disputes. Efforts an initial polite inquiries, efforts to gather information, efforts to suggest alternatives are all greated as "impositions of will" by these hedonistic fuck-you liberals in SL. This is not a game that is going to have a million customers. From: someone You want to lay down the law, buy a sim Um, I did buy a sim, duh. In fact, I bought MORE than a sim, more like a sim and a HALF for the sake of protecting customers' views. It's never enough, especially given the prevailing attitude you so well represent.
Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698	01-01-2005 16:22 From: someone She gave her answer. Clear and simple. You didnt get your way, so you get all pissy and make harsh irrational statements. I understand 100% why she posted here. Guess you're continuing to read her one-sided and distorted story here. Anyone could check the conversation logs I guess. Far from ME making harsh irrational judgements. SHE was the one who jumped to a conclusion that I was some cut-throat land baron pillaging land, plopping down houses, and trying to make a huge killling off a development. Nothing could be further from the truth, if she just read more about the project and saw that it has a completely different ethical basis. She then began a slam on our community, a slam on the houses, and a slam on this individual customer who innocently started this whole episode merely by inquiring if there was any way to clear the view, purchase the water, or see if worse was to come down the road. She kept the conversation going and going. There was no "getting my way" that I was seeking and nothing I wanted from her. I inquired about water for sale. It wasn't. I then asked about plans -- was King Kong on the horizon? And she got huffy and started a tirade. She began a critique of everything adjacent to her water although we didn't begin with any critique of her stuff -- which, as I've noted, are deemed "tacky" by those with a greater sense of aesthetics. We wanted information about plans to settle a business problem -- move or buy back land. She escalated it into a flame on the spot, and took it to forums. So we're pushing back. We're not afraid : )

I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-01-2005 16:44 I started this response a couple of hours ago when there were 14 postings only and ran into computer problemss so I saved and now pasted it.... *HUGS* Pen, Ashlynne, Rose & Vestalia. Thank you for your kind words and confidence in what the outcome of our build will be. ( You Get it! :) ) The purpose of my posting was not to flame. if it had been then I would have used names but I purposfully left them out. Prokofy, If you read my original posting again, you will see as I told you the day we talked that we are not finished with our plans for building and as I told you, yes, that area would be used to build a display for our Sculptures. Obviously as we start to build we will not be able to afford the prims we allow for so many to be out in the future. We plan to build some kind of displaystand/platform rising to the water surface (sorry no design drawings yet) and rotate our display. Please note that of the pictures posted, the island you see is only partially ours. We have an L shaped peice of land that has no buildings on it other than the reflection places at the shore line and a gazebo on the hill. Pretty much the wooded area is all ours and wraps partially around the other side. The compliments on Eagan mean a lot. When we began building there we took into consideration Rose and Vestalia's beautiful builds. I'm glad we accomplished one of our main goals. Which, as I told Vestalia when she visited near the end of our building, "We wanted to create something that our neighbors would not look over at and say "OMG look what they plopped down next door! " But rather wow what a nice build" I'd like to note that tho we've talked to Rose and Vestalia a few times we are not "connected" to them. We met when we moved in. We did the same in Eagan before we built, displayed sculptures in the interim. It looks like it all turned out ok there. I logged into SL before I came here to read the forums and was greeted by IM's regarding this post. Kind words from people I havn't met or know in passing. One really sums it up and tells me they can feel what we want to accomplish in Carlisle. This is from someone who I read often in the forums and is familiar to a great many of others I'm sure. We have never met in world. The visit was prompted by this thread. "I came to visit your place in Carisle *sigh* it looks so tranquil and pretty here. I'm sitting by the campfire right now as I type this to you." Thank you for taking the time to visit and get a first person view *HUGS* To sum it up we are not connected to anyone. Yes, we are old players, we do have many friends (kinda comes with being old players) BUT, we have earned every friendship we have here by being honest, hardworking, concerned people. We have helped many others along the way, not for the fame (we dont have any fame that I know of) but because when we started we had the help of many others. This may be part of the reason we are not rich either. That and the fact we do love toys LOL Which brings me to the "cars" we placed on our land yesterday. The Hammerheads were my X-Mas gift to the group. Yesterday was Shads first day back from vacation and we wanted to play. Well we put down our pads and parked the vehicles there so we could play with our toys. Dont worry we will clean up after ourselves when we get done. Much like X-Mas morning. If we consolidated our group land, maybe we could buy a sim. Does that make us land barons? rich?, or a group of 5 long time friends that pooled our resources so we have more options? This has turned into a he said she said posting. Like the fact you stated to me that your "customer was complaining and wanted her money back. While she states YOU asked her what she thought of the art over the water. I wont get into a silly debate like that here. The point of this post is... 1) A landowner has a right to build as they see fit on their land. 2) Dont presume to know what the outcome will be and judge by your nearsightedness when they have told you they are undecided. Wait and see what they create you may be pleasantly surprised or even thrilled with the outcome. 3) As in this case if you want to speculate on what they may build, take the time to visit other builds they have done. Eagan is a good place to start. 4) The most important, Never assume you have a vision that must be shared by everyone. Do as so many others have done and create your paradise within your property. 5) Get out and see how others have adapted and respected others freedoms. These type of builds are the most beautiful and refresshing finds in SL. If SL was made up of people with all the same visions we wouldnt be a world we would be a comune. The very fact that we are all so different and all have such diverse talents and visions is what makes SL such a wonderful place to be. To address later postings... -I would think that making a "polite inquiry" over and over after it was answered borders on harassment. -Creating a community and a vision of what it will be is a wonderful idea. But do you really think that just because someone has assured you that they will keep to your vision when they buy (not rent) a plot of land there means it will remain so? What happens when they decide to sell? What if they decide they want a store there instead? I admire the task you have taken on of policing your former properties. It will be a big task and no doubt you will face some battles in the future. I wish you luck. -I didnt know you knew so many of us so well to make the kind of assumtions you do. I think we all can see who the "me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL." is. _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-01-2005 16:51 I did not slam your build or homes just pointed out I may not agree with the layout and you accused me of trashing your project. You put a very interesting spin on what you hear from others and this is just the kind of he said she said debate I'm talking about. I have better things to do than to address your misquotes and distortions. The question here is a question shared by many. Our situation is only an example. Does a landowner have the right to feel others around him should conform to what he feels his vision is? _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-01-2005 17:48 Oh dear. Well, despite the fact that I believe you have an alternate agenda against a few people in SL. And that you will say anything to build your project up while tearing others down, I will actually do the right thing here and respond to your post Prokofy. From: Prokofy Neva Indeed hehehe. Note that it is Pahoa Jade who has decided to take this discussion public -- which I didn't -- so I'm happy to tell my side of the story. She's presented her side, but it contains exaggerations and fabrications. Let the community discuss it. One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. :) From: someone I purchased the Ravenglass sim to make it a planned residential community with an effort to protect the views. It seems there is a crying lack of such areas in SL, with many people moaning and groaning that their views are constantly wrecked by ugly builds. Everyone seems paralyzed and powerless in the face of the bad choices of a few, and it seems like it's time to push back. So I've been pushing back in a variety of ways -- raising the issue of ugly builds on the forums, suggesting that the use of negrate might be in order here and there, and also putting my money where my mouth is by attempting a residential development myself. You also stood very harshly against Ulrika on this very matter in another thread. I refer you to: /120/43/29427/1.html Perhaps you have changed your mind? From: someone I'm new and I'm learning so I'm happy to hear any criticism about the development decisions. I'm quite aware that my controversial statements about big ugly builds already on the forum have pre-fueled Pahoa's ire, because she assumed the worst -- that I might organize some sort of public condemnation of her build or a collective negrate of her builds which in fact I had absolutely no intension of doing, have never done, and have merely raised as a possible public tool to solve chronic problems in SL. Yes. You are new and learning and nothing in this statement is wrong nor can it be condemed. From: someone I first contacted Pahoa very politely to ask her if she'd be willing to sell part of the water around her substantially sized plot with an island and lots of water. Sometimes people are willing to sell patches like that if you don't build on them -- it's on another sim so it really does no good except to protect the view and water access. She then asked why I wished to buy. I said I was contacting her on behalf of an unhappy customer who was wondering if she should move and sell her land back to me because there were now builds in water that she thought mistakenly was Linden water. (I could note that most land owners wouldn't bother to take up an issue like that, much less buy back land from an unhappy customer.) In this your statment and Pahoa's is the same. From: someone Instead of just answering "yes, I plan a big store" or "no, it's just those animals," Pahoa accused me of merely wishing to chop up land and sell it at a high price, and of plopping houses down, crowded next to each other. Here I choose to believe Pahoa's statement of what happened over yours. That is my opinion only. From: someone Meanwhile, I faced the problem of having to buy back from a customer. In all honesty, that is your problem, not hers or ours. From: someone She obviously hadn't bothered to read any of the notecards on the property or she'd know that this is not some get-rich-quick scheme. It has a large commons that keeps at least 10,000 acres unsold and preserved, including a large part of the waterfront. Instead of selling off the island immediately and risk having a laggy club or store, I'm trying to keep it in the community, even buying waterway into the next sim to ensure its view. To make it affordable, sure, there are 1024 or 1536 plots so that people can stay within tier zones. No, not all of us can afford to live the lives of the rich and famous players who have been in the game for 2 years selling their high-tech creative wares. Yes, there has to be room for others in the game. Yes. You continue to point out your "wonderful" plan for a community area in many of your threads. What your are attempting is no different than *MANY* others in SL are doing. You are not special, though I do personally wish you luck in your project. :) From: someone Pahoa next honed in on the nature of my customer's build -- it "jutted out into the water" she said although of course when you sell waterfront land, you have to sell it with water. I'll leave the public to judge whether that customer made a good build or not -- obviously Pahoa doesn't want judgement of her own group's builds but is freely dispensing judgement of others LOL. You just put words into Pahoa's mouth that she did not state. Bad form on your part. This whole paragraph of yours should be ignored. From: someone There's a larger issue here not specific to Pahoa. I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. That is a "perception" of yours. I see people moving all the time, old and new. Of course older players do have a knowledge of the world and how things can work in a sim or hurt it. That does not make them special, it only makes them knowledgable. Which is understandable. From: someone There's plenty of space. If someone inquires about a purchase or an intention merely to protect their own view, it should be understood as that, and not treated as some kind of intrusive crime. And if someone honestly is not certain yet what they want to do with their land, they should not be hounded to answer anyone with a specific goal. From: someone As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. If you want a sim to look exactly the way you want it to, then either buy your own, and/or work to get some Zoned Sims in place, and/or work to create a community within an exisiting sim. Otherwise, love it or hate it, you have no right to tell someone else what they can and cannot build on their own land. Of course, I offer one exception to this. And that is I firmly believe if one person's build in a sim is dragging the sim down to performance levels that keep other land owners in that sim from functioning, then that is something that should NOT be allowed. If it is about looks only, oh well, too bad. From: someone I started Ravenglass as an experiment. If you buy a sim and put in beautiful houses and try to make it affordable, can you protect people's investments? I've bought up surrounding land to protect views, I've watched as all kinds of large hulks have gone up around us. This isn't just my problem, but a public problem and one for the Lindens. Can there be residential sims in which people's investments are protected? Yes. Your project. Well, your statements seem to fall under wanting zoned types of Sims. There are threads about this in the Land and Economy forum as well as the Feature Suggestions Forum. It is an issue that has been being discussed since before even you came to SL. A valid discussion in my book. From: someone The jury is still out. One thing I know is that these issue need PLENTY of democratic, public discussion. Many views and interests need to be taken into account. An accusatory attitude and a haughty sense of eminent domain for the older, wealthier players are not the last word on this story. You certainly have a distaste for players that have been around longer than you have. I've been around a year longer than you, and I bet that you have more Lindens than I do. :p Your bias to older players is really something that I can't understand or tolerate. Wisdom in the ways of the world *does* come with age. The SL world is really no different. But even I will admit that wisdom isn't everything. However, prejudice against a poplulation in the world will definitely keep some from *ever* paying attention to you. From: someone I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. They've done a fantastic job of making an interesting and exciting and alluring world. They've unleashed their creativity and put out all kinds of whimsical articles, animations, particles, scripts, and so on. They see SL as a kind of never-ending Neverland. You unleash your imagination -- and away you go. But that's not what the game is for everybody. Not all players that have been around for months, years, etc. Agree with each other on what this world is, was, or should be. Nor do all of them have money, or a "love em or leave em" attitude about the Lindens. You assume too much. From: someone But on the other side there's another kind of player base who basically just want a replica of RL. They want quaint homes with realistic vistas with beautiful sunsets. See my response to your last quote. From: someone A possible solution is to zone new sims. They zones can be "residential" or "business" or "entertainment" or "experimental" -- and they have to be clustered because the next sim is always right next to your sim and in your view. Again, the issue of zoning is one that has been around long before you came to SL. It is a topic with much debate and discussion. It is also a topic that many of these "older players" agree with. That said, it is not the topic of this discussion. This thread was started because a member of the community felt they needed to vent because they felt they were being asked to conform to what another land owner around them wanted, and did not feel this was right but wanted feedback from the community. On that topic I say again, NO one has a right to tell another person what they can or cannot build in my opinion. My *only* acception is if the build puts a strain on the sim to the point that it is unsable (unable to move, walk, build, fly, etc) by others in the Sim. When it gets to that point, the Lindens usually step in though, so I feel confident in this exception. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 17:54 Pahoa, I'm glad you have a notion to build in conformity with land and to build things that are pleasing to others In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong? My customer approached me first about concerns about builds in the water adjacent to hers. As I have already repeated, she raised it first -- I didn't complain about art work that wasn't to my taste or the taste of architects in SL because I, too, would fall down on the side of creativity and freedom over restrictions. I pointed out to this customer that it was just artwork -- just dolphins and not a big building -- and she said she realized that but still had concerns about a potential big build. I didn't somehow incite this person to say what she thought of artwork, I just pointed out it WAS artwork, not some big build (although King Kong is lurking around the bend). No one can read your mind and know what you intend to do -- nor do they really need to know. But you can't back down and say these are temporary displays as a justification -- no one can possibly know that unless they ask, and yet you took offense at the mere asking. From: someone 1) A landowner has a right to build as they see fit on their land. All landowners have that right, and a landowner who is commissioning buildings or selling land has the right to ask on behalf of his customers what to expect nearby -- merely what to expect! -- so that buyers can plan accordingly. It shouldn't have to cramp your style to answer "yes, there's a big building planned" or "we don't know but it's likely just these animals." From: someone 2) Dont presume to know what the outcome will be and judge by your nearsightedness when they have told you they are undecided. Wait and see what they create you may be pleasantly surprised or even thrilled with the outcome. If I were nearsighted, I wouldn't be seeing the hulk of King Kong in the distance, hmmm? Let me send this boomerang right back to you. You made a judgement about me being a rapacious land-baron type merely bent on marking up land, selling it, and bailing out. There was absolutely no basis for that rash judgement, it was based on a long-standing prejudice against "land barons" in SL. Take a closer look and you see a planned development with a commons and care and concern about customers' views. Why don't you wait until it is all finished before pronouncing YOUR judgement? From: someone 3) As in this case if you want to speculate on what they may build, take the time to visit other builds they have done. Eagan is a good place to start. I'm not going to belabor the excellent, superior builds I have sponsored in this game since September. If any of these architects are not too intimidated by the mob justice on the forums, they may step up to the plate and mention that they were supported with land, tier and events for dwell while they built, or supported by promotional contests with prizes, or supported by purchase of their pre-fabs or commissioned buildings. From: someone 4) The most important, Never assume you have a vision that must be shared by everyone. Do as so many others have done and create your paradise within your property. Your constant harping on my supposed "assumptions" or my supposed "vision" are out of place. I'm raising the question of whether everyone in SL is as thrilled with King Kong as you are -- or not. I am not imposing my vision. I didn't put King Kong in the water. You did. I didn't take this discussion to the forums -- you did. I didn't do anything but ask about your plans. And while you may believe you have absolute freedom in this game when you buy land, the person next to you who bought land thinks they have freedom, too, and their freedom is encroached by your unbelievable resistance to merely talking over your plans so that others may adjust accordingly. Let me point out again -- that was ALL that was asked of you! No one asked you to remove anything -- they merely asked to be INFORMED so they could MOVE. From: someone 5) Get out and see how others have adapted and respected others freedoms. These type of builds are the most beautiful and refresshing finds in SL. I've flown all over and studied all kinds of situations. And I see what you are discussing as precious little. You might want to cite some sim names and specific plots. What I see is generally just the opposite -- people not feeling empowered to speak up and ask questions or even to protest because of a culture of fuck-you hedonism that often most cleverly disguises itself as "concern for the community." I'll remind you once again that I didn't have some grand vision or grand plans, just a request on behalf of a customer. From: someone If SL was made up of people with all the same visions we wouldnt be a world we would be a comune Actually, SL's old player base reminds me quite a bit of a commune -- subsidized, self-referential and hostile to newcomers. From: someone But do you really think that just because someone has assured you that they will keep to your vision when they buy (not rent) a plot of land there means it will remain so? What happens when they decide to sell? What if they decide they want a store there instead? Of course not. You have to start somewhere. I view myself as a pioneer trying to push against the tide of helplessness and anger I see in this game over the utter inability to do anything about the ugly build next door. The Lindens aren't going to zone. And players can't really enforce zoning without constant disputes and Linden intervention. So I think there have to be ways of developing alternatives. One of them is to buy a sim -- and even the views on to the next sims -- and ask people to respect the idea of "residential". Tcoz Bach Tyrell Victim Join date: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 973 01-01-2005 18:11 You can take your opinion and apply some of the language you used to it. All this "consideration of neighbors" usually boils down to somebody that moved in and wants somebody else to do something, and when they say "no", they complain like this. You're just one in a very long history of the people who lose these battles, such as they are. The Lindens may choose to mediate, but even they realize, the bottom line is, doing what you want on your land is the nature of the game that they are still trying to get to work. And if you wish to succeed in SL, when you're done complaining, you'll realize it and understand that if it's not your land, whining is pointless. You know, not everybody plays this game to be part of some arbitrary community. Have a nice day and thank you for playing Second Life! Oh and btw...enjoy the view. _____________________ ** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? ** Sam Portocarrero Jesus Of Suburbia Join date: 23 May 2004 Posts: 316 01-01-2005 18:18 Ok I'm going to put in my L$0.02. Ok everyone, in vision with me for a few moments here.... Lets say I am looking for land, I find a nice spot in a upscale woodsy area. This plot is one of about 30 in the area, all surrounded by woods and zoned residential. I buy the plot in the middle for say $250,000. Now, 2 months later the surrounding plots of land are sold, A developer has bought them all. A short time after that, as common practice with developers, all the land he has purchased is 100% clear cut, to make way for large multi million dollar homes. I now own land with a few trees, and a home, in the middle of a field, the builder builds large homes no more then 30ft from my lot line. Here's where the story takes a turn.... Do I.... A) Go back to my realtor, and demand my $250,000 back because the land around me has changed? B) Stay put, love what I have, and make the best of it? C) Consider selling my land, and buying a larger plot somewhere else? D) Stay where I am, sulk and boil about it, and naturally hate the people who buy those homes from the developer? Think about those options, and lets go over the results together... A) Considering that realtors make a percentage from any property they sell (was 3%) I would be demanding that they take money from the original seller, and their share out of their pockets. What do you think the response to your demands would be? B) This would be the cheapest option of them all, as you bought knowing that the other land was available around you, you took a CHANCE that it would not be clear cut, your bet was wrong. This would generally be the best option all the way around. C) If you have the money to purchase other land in a planned community already, or are able to buy enough land of your own, this may be the best option for you. D) This would be the worst option, the purchasers of said properties bought the land for the same general reasons you did, they liked it. Now... Realized that you had the option to ask questions about the other available land, you could have gotten zoning information (moused over it in game) or inquired what it's uses may become BEFORE YOU BOUGHT. The story above applies for both RL and SL, and many of the same principals apply also, please consider your battles and use your brain before you purchase any land in a "main grid" gated community property. - Sam Dominion Custom Homes Edit: There are already planned communities regulated BY THE LINDENS with zoning rules. This area is the sim of "Boardman". No buildings over X meters, they must be private single family residences, and they can not be obstructive in any way. _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 18:24 From: someone when you're done complaining, you'll realize it and understand that if it's not your land, whining is pointless. Well, I don't think an appeal to public reason is whining, or pointless, but I'm sure six months from now I'll realize how idealistic that was. I personally took Pahoa Jade's caustic commentary about our development to heart. She said the houses were too crowded together. Well, I was trying to balance the desire of people to stay within tier range and only spend extra $5 or $8 on 512, 1024, or 2048. That gives you the crowded look, especially on valuable waterfront land. What can you do? Well, not an awful lot. I spoke to one architect about maybe moving a house back, but houses are built to site specifics by good architects, and I wouldn't want to undo that care in someone's work -- it's annoying to try to build a site-specific house on to another property with different terrain -- especially if you are committed to not terraforming everything into a pancake and bulldozing it. So I went around and doubled some other lots and tried to make them less crowded -- but who knows if they will sell? It's always a crap shoot in this game because you can appeal to what looks good, but people don't always care. And I imagine that despite all her indignation, Pahoa will think a little bit twice before she fills up the sea with more King-Kong like creatures. And all her neighbours now know that the cat has been belled -- they can now raise this issue knowing that the way has been paved out of their timidity and sense of powerlessness. They can say -- you know, we enjoyed King Kong for awhile, but could you maybe put him away now except on Sundays? Looking a few sims away, I see a gigantic house, scrips up the wazoo, objects, prims, scripts, particles galore, the thing lit up like Yankee Stadium -- and the owners never online -- never. For weeks. It was fun to build, fun to live in for a day and then...of to World of Warcraft or whatever....meanwhile, they've left a sim at 1000 FPS, despite being brand new. I am for steadily making inroads against this condition. I think it is possible to appeal to some kind of common sense in the public domain. We can ask people to use 256 or 512 textures instead of 1024. We can ask them not to leave their particles/lights/animated scripts running day and night but just have them when they are actually online living in their house. A waterfall that you enjoyed for the day lags the whole sim. It would be nice if there was a way to turn off all this stuff EXCEPT when the owner was actually on the property. Sam Portocarrero Jesus Of Suburbia Join date: 23 May 2004 Posts: 316 01-01-2005 18:35 Oh that reminds me of another thing... While I was reading through this thread I noticed one major key word "sold". If someone decides to develop an area into a community area, and keep it that way, lease/rent out the parcels to customers. This insures that none of the land ever makes it into the wrong hands. Persons that SELL said land in hopes of keeping it a secure clean neighborhood are very misguided, as anyone can sell said land off or build big and ugly without any repercussions. Tenants on most rental property have the same rights that land owners do except usually for an extra club in the profile. Advantages of renting include keeping the ugly and flashing out. Again, consumers think before you buy. -Sam _____________________ Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-01-2005 18:38 From: Prokofy Neva In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong?. Yes I did address this: From: Pahoa Jade Prokofy, If you read my original posting again, you will see as I told you the day we talked that we are not finished with our plans for building and as I told you, yes, that area would be used to build a display for our Sculptures. Obviously as we start to build we will not be able to afford the prims we allow for so many to be out in the future. We plan to build some kind of displaystand/platform rising to the water surface (sorry no design drawings yet) and rotate our display. We did not "build" Kong, he is one of the sculptures I am talking about. It's very easy to check the creator by clicking the item in question and looking at the edit tab for creator. Hmm, you havn't mentioned the number of other sculptures we have on display on the island like Shads Dragon, Starax's Gladiator defending his women from a panther, Cthulhu, or our Jade and Crimson Wolves. is it because they are on our "land" and not the water you were unable to get control of? Well our actions and build in the end will speak for themselves. _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 18:48 From: Pendari Lorentz Oh dear. Well, despite the fact that I believe you have an alternate agenda against a few people in SL. And that you will say anything to build your project up while tearing others down, I will actually do the right thing here and respond to your post Prokofy. I don't have any "alternative agenda" Pendari except pushing back against your friend Ulrika's wacky socialist schemes to tax group purchases, whether non-profit or for-profit, and I've also taken on a few gigantic ugly builds like Blue Burke. I haven't built up my project while tearing others down, I've selected exactly 3 sacred cows that I'm aware of -- Ulrika's wacky communism, Blue Burke's big-ass builds, and the awed genuflection around Neverland. That's all a fair fight, nothing sinister here. From: someone One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. Yes, you are insular, smug, and self-referential and you'll find some new people contradicting you on this. From: someone There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. :) Oh, stop your smug condescention. I don't care how highly respected someone is in their little tight-knit self-referential "community". It's a big game with more and more people coming in it that make up a public larger than your cliquish community. And if that person has misrepresented a story -- completely leaving out the highly salient facts that SHE slammed my development, not visa-versa, SHE made unsubstantiated accusations against me, and SHE put a King Kong in the water LOL. So no need to try to "educate" me -- the facts speak for themselves. If people are so smug and cliquish that they cling to their friend and hug her to death despite the dubious merit of her putting King Kong in the water well....but I do want to remind you again that it was a request for INFORMATION so a customer could MOVE not an "agenda" or a "tearing down" or anything of the sort. From: someone You also stood very harshly against Ulrika on this very matter in another thread. I refer you to: /120/43/29427/1.html Perhaps you have changed your mind? Uh....what's your point? No, I haven't changed my mind about a vicious campaign to tax land barons and group owners and people trying to do big projects. What contradiction do you see here? This seems like a red herring just designed to burnish your image. Anybody with a grain of intelligence can see there is nothing contradictory and if anything, it proves my point about the need to have player-based efforts at zoning and player empowerment in challenging some of those who ruin entire sim views with their thoughtlessness. From: someone Here I choose to believe Pahoa's statement of what happened over yours. That is my opinion only. Well, your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever.... Yes. You continue to point out your "wonderful" plan for a community area in many of your threads. What your are attempting is no different than *MANY* others in SL are doing. You are not special, though I do personally wish you luck in your project. :) Of course I'm not special, duh. I make no such claims to specialness. And there isn't any special community other than people who want to buy land and protect their investment by having views generally free of the kind of inconsiderate, often temporary, annoying big builds that occur in SL. In fact, what was attempted in this entire story was a request for INFORMATION so that someone could MOVE and be PAID BACK. I'll thank you to keep that in mind. From: someone And if someone honestly is not certain yet what they want to do with their land, they should not be hounded to answer anyone with a specific goal. There wasn't any hounding. Sure, there was repeating of the same point over and over again, in an attempt to allay what seemed to be mounting indignation and furor on Pahoa's part over a mere inquiry. And I can see that it's because she came into this story with some baggage. From: someone If you want a sim to look exactly the way you want it to, then either buy your own, and/or work to get some Zoned Sims in place, and/or work to create a community within an exisiting sim. Duh. That's what I'm trying to do, and one of the ways you do that is inquire from neighbors building stuff that customers may object to whether they'd be willing to sell, and also merely asking what their plans are so you can adjust. Common sense, really. From: someone Otherwise, love it or hate it, you have no right to tell someone else what they can and cannot build on their own land. Only in the world of the self-refential smug cliques of SL could an inquiry with the purpose of helping a person decide whether to sell and move be transmogrified into "telling someone what they cannot and can build on their land." This is LAUGHABLE. There isn't a shred of evidence that I've done anything of the kind. Pointing out that King Kong is a big ugly gorilla to be finding in sea water isn't exactly asking anybody to change anything -- and I did this only after Pahoa decided to make this a public dispute -- to what end, I can't imagine, since she suffered no loss, was not asked to do anything, had nothing obstructive in HER view, and was merely approached about INFORMATION to help someone make a DECISION WHETHER TO MOVE. From: someone Yes. Your project. Well, your statements seem to fall under wanting zoned types of Sims. There are threads about this in the Land and Economy forum as well as the Feature Suggestions Forum. It is an issue that has been being discussed since before even you came to SL. A valid discussion in my book. I'm quite aware there's nothing new under the sun, the sun that shone on the privileged beta testers and old players long, long before I emigrated from TSO. But it's ok for a fresh voice to be raised on the issue -- which obviously wasn't solved. From: someone You certainly have a distaste for players that have been around longer than you have. That's silly. I've identified perhaps 3-4 old players who have injected their will into the public domain and challenged it. That's hardly an indictment of the class. I have gone to tutorials and learned from people, I've seen much that I respect in older players and have befriended some of them. So your comment is out of line, and mainly based on your siding with Ulrika over her wacky socialist scheme which I rightly opposed. From: someone However, prejudice against a poplulation in the world will definitely keep some from *ever* paying attention to you. *Shrugs*. I'll try to contain my disappointment. Meanwhile, there are a lot of other people in the game besides a few old players who believe they enjoy the noblesse oblige of eminent domain. From: someone That said, it is not the topic of this discussion. This thread was started because a member of the community felt they needed to vent because they felt they were being asked to conform to what another land owner around them wanted, and did not feel this was right but wanted feedback from the community. Well, could I remind you once again? This player felt needlessly skittish and indignant on the basis of nothing, on the basis of other forum debates, on the basis of bad experiences on her previous sim, whatever. She wasn't asked to do anything other than to comment on whether she intended to have a big build or not. Full stop. Let's not get too precious about this. If she can't take the heat of hearing that King Kong is kitsch -- well, get out of the kitchen as they say. But I didn't even start a campaign for removal of King Kong, I merely invited From: someone commentary. On that topic I say again, NO one has a right to tell another person what they can or cannot build in my opinion. You and others keep confusing a criticism of the aesthetics of somebody's build, much less an inquiry about their plans, with "telling them what to build". I think it pays to make and keep these distinctions. Crimson Sunchaser King Kong on Water Lover Join date: 11 Mar 2003 Posts: 113 01-01-2005 19:17 From: someone SHE made unsubstantiated accusations against me, and SHE put a King Kong in the water LOL. So no need to try to "educate" me -- the facts speak for themselves. If people are so smug and cliquish that they cling to their friend and hug her to death despite the dubious merit of her putting King Kong in the water well....but I do want to remind you again that it was a request for INFORMATION so a customer could MOVE not an "agenda" or a "tearing down" or anything of the sort. From: someone Well, your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever.... From: someone Only in the world of the self-refential smug cliques of SL could an inquiry with the purpose of helping a person decide whether to sell and move be transmogrified into "telling someone what they cannot and can build on their land." This is LAUGHABLE. There isn't a shred of evidence that I've done anything of the kind. Pointing out that King Kong is a big ugly gorilla to be finding in sea water isn't exactly asking anybody to change anything -- and I did this only after Pahoa decided to make this a public dispute -- to what end, I can't imagine, since she suffered no loss, was not asked to do anything, had nothing obstructive in HER view, and was merely approached about INFORMATION to help someone make a DECISION WHETHER TO MOVE. Pahoa didnt put anything in the water I did. Read the owner before you run your mouth. (that covers the 1st ,2ed quotes) If you are not trying to change anything by pointing out Kong( How many times?) , the shut up about it. ("This is LAUGHABLE. There isn't a shred of evidence that I've done anything of the kind. Pointing out that King Kong is a big ugly gorilla to be finding in sea water isn't exactly asking anybody to change anything -- ";) Be glad that your doing this with Pahoa. If it was me with the way you act I'd pave it and have Monster fights every Friday night. Now that we have that bullshit out of the way.. We plan to work with the area/land/water like we did in Eagan. Between now and then it will be the same as it is now. Crimson Sunchaser Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-01-2005 19:30 From: Prokofy Neva Yes, you are insular, smug, and self-referential and you'll find some new people contradicting you on this. That is your opinion though. Personaly I think you are someone who only wants to *make* people see your point no matter what the consequences, but that does not mean that others do not feel differently. :) Ok. First I should clarify what I was refering to in the thread that I linked. I apologize for being vague in that aspect. Here was what you stated and my response: From: someone From: someone Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva How did it come about that Ulrika wanted to leave her social democracy sandbox and come out and affect the rest of the game? Maybe it was just a discussion, but in reality, it was a concerted campaign complete with incitement, closing off discussion when it suited one, and character assassination. Pendari's response: Ok. Then Bob the magnificent builder from Slate, well, if he has any opinions on issues in SL, he just better not come out here and state them. He must only talk to those in Slate because otherwise he is just going to get the Lindens to bow to his wishes. Oh, and Pituca and Jai, sorry you two. But you can only disscuss issues in SL with Taber residents. And sorry Mistress, you are so alluring and persuasive, you need to keep all your opinions about SL in Midnight City. You too Eltee! Because we just know that if you come out with opinions about SL outside Luskwood, the next thing you know we are going to have fur covered signs mandatory in every sim! Oh, and you Ryen. Keep your ideas inside Taratus only. Because NONE of you is allowed to speak up on SL issues because you happen to be a part of a group project. I'm sorry, but if people cannot see how proposterous this line of thought is then I feel there is no way simple me is going to be able to explain it. Found on this page of the thread I referenced: /120/43/29427/4.html From: Prokofy Neva Sure, there was repeating of the same point over and over again, in an attempt to allay what seemed to be mounting indignation and furor on Pahoa's part over a mere inquiry. That is considered "hounding" by a great deal of people. From: Prokofy Neva That's silly. I've identified perhaps 3-4 old players who have injected their will into the public domain and challenged it. That's hardly an indictment of the class. I have gone to tutorials and learned from people, I've seen much that I respect in older players and have befriended some of them. This was your response when I stated: "You certainly have a distaste for players that have been around longer than you have." You may have only "singled out 3-4 Older players", but in your FIRST post in this thread you state both of the following: From: Prokofy Neva I often find that older, richer players feel they have a kind of eminent domain, especially if they are fleeing older, laggier, crowded sims and especially because they have spent years essentially working for free and now want to enjoy more of the fruits of their labours, at least in terms of large land parcels. From: Prokofy Neva I see a basic conflict of interest here that needs to be reviewed. On the one side are older, wealthier players who have spent months -- years -- in a tiny game of 7-10,000 players in a perpetual beta test love fest with the Lindens. No matter how you cut it, those are your slams on older players. You have obvious contempt. Again I state, As someone who has been here a year longer than you have, I can almost bet you that you have more Linden money than I and many others that even came from beta or just thereafter. I certainly could never afford a whole sims worth of land. But do I begrudge you that? no. Because unlike you, I judge individuals. On their own, and for much different reasons than you seem to. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Lisse Livingston Mentor/Instructor/Greeter Join date: 16 May 2004 Posts: 1,130 01-01-2005 20:04 1. If you are selling "guaranteed views", then your buyers should understand that the guarantee only extends to the edge of your land. Parcels on the edge of that land cannot be sold with that guarantee (and perhaps should be dedicated to the "set aside for community use" program you mention. 2. 'Liberal' is not a swear word. 'Hippy' and 'Artisan' are not insults. From: Pendari Lorentz No matter how you cut it, those are your slams on older players. You have obvious contempt. I am not in the category of 'older player' that Pendari and others on this thread are. I have only been playing for 8 months or so. Yet Prokofy's bias and scorn is evident for me to see, too. I have read this thread several times and of the many people posting here, I count two neutrals, and two batting for his side. The two batting for Prokofy are ... Prokofy himself, and his alt. It's a wonderful vision, to maintain a beautiful residential area people can live within in confidence. However, one of the prerequisites is a project leader who can play well with others. On a totally unrelated note, anyone looked over some of the Second Life Herald's older postings on TSO drama? ;) _____________________ Land Developer, Builder and Real Estate Agent Come to my events! Sundays at 10:00 am: Texturing Contest Tuesdays at 5:00 pm: Land 101 and at 7:00 pm: Trivia Thursdays at 7:00 pm: Land 101 Fridays at 7:00 pm: Primtionary (Other events occasionally scheduled) Read my LiveJournal! Visit my Livingston Properties web site for your Real Estate and Building needs! Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 20:53 Lisse, I can understand that when someone comes in and challenges the comfortable status quo it isn't pleasant. My first dispute in the forums was with your condescending attitude toward me because I chose to take the dwell system seriously, ask a lot of questions about it, and support further inquiry into it. You scornfully turned it away as a "sucker's game" and lorded it over me because you took in rent money each week, and added insult to injury by castigating me because I chose to buy a new sim and try a project -- while still believing dwell is important and still believing playing with just a premium account and a 512 is also important. I tried to mollify you, but unsuccessfully. It just seems very important to you to be right -- so fine, be right. Stay with that if you want. But the game is growing by leaps and bounds around you with the entry of many new people with many different ideas and visions. Land is land. You don't have to be a saint or free from controversy for people to just buy it and try to have a residential community. This isn't Neualtenberg or some kind of hippie commune. Hippie isn't an insult to my mind, it's just a description. It's just a game. I personally am going to retire from forum discussions now. I only entered into this latest fray because Pahoa decided to air her ridiculous indignation publicly. But I've made my point and then some with you and others. Play your game -- nobody has taken a thing away from you. But if you keep up that insular attitude you will find yourself without customers -- just like the Lindens. Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-01-2005 21:29 From: someone On a totally unrelated note, anyone looked over some of the Second Life Herald's older postings on TSO drama? Let me give you the short form on this everybody, save you miles of reading :) I opposed rampant display of BDSM lots and practices in public lots in TSO, given that there are children as young as 9 in the game informally, and as young as 13 legally. If anybody wants to go on that wild goose chase, they can go read the debates pro and con for allowing BDSM to hang it all out in a game with children in it, as well as non-consenting adults. But this debate isn't relevant to SL because there aren't the same kind of public skilling lots as there are in TSO, and of course, there aren't children -- in theory anyway. It is not a debate about tolerance of lifestyles, it's a debate about exposing them to minors. Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-01-2005 22:43 From: someone I personally am going to retire from forum discussions now. Hmmm I see the TSO Refugee took this opportunity to assault my associates in my abscence. Unfortunate, Prokofy as you will note yes I and my associates are older players. However, based on the illiteration of the incident from my associates I had been requested to in essence to stay my thoughts and opinions as I already have a formulated opinion of you from past experience. However this last debacle of responce from you cut to a point of where I had to speak up but not in reference to the aforementioned situation of the land. From: someone I only entered into this latest fray because Pahoa decided to air her ridiculous indignation publicly. But I've made my point and then some with you and others. Based on past experience with you and your indignation with "OLDER" players your contempt alone is why you entered in this "FRAY". Would you like me to enlighten you as to this point. It was mainly because Pahoa never outted you in her initial post you did that all on your own. Had you kept your mouth shut you would have never looked the fool as you do now talking in circles and basing things on you "YOUR" opinion of things. Pahoa gave you an answer you continued to inquire which bordered on Harrassment. I have known Pahoa for almost a year and a half now and she doesnt speak out unless she is to a point and you Mr. Prokofy crossed that with your indignation. So did you really get your point across as I am still flabberghasted as to what the point was. Inquiring is an innocent thing. However, to continually do so because you feel your Buisness relys on it, is considered harrassment. I basically told Pahoa when this all was explained to me. I told her to report you for harrasment as you were infringing on her and the groups rights to do as we wished with our land. Again what was your point..... was it? A)I'm a land barron and I am trying to make money selling plots of land to Newbies B)I'm a Self ritious indignation anus attempting to impose my will on others C)I'm a concerened citizen of Second Life and being such I want to make sure UGLY builds do not exist. Your Choice pick one as I have more that possibly could apply as well Either way Prokofy your point was not made you talked in circles which from your long drawn out points of the past is a steadfast ploy of yours to bore people to tears with idle banter and confuse them from the actual point of the post. So, My point is this Prokofy, Your buisness is your buisness I have stayed out of this for the most part. However, I will not stand idly by when you rant in circles and try to defame a friend and associate. If you have issues with your customers because you make grandious promises that you cannot keep is neither my nor anyone elses problems in Second Life. If I as a Co-Founder of Jade Wolf decide to put out 5000, 10 meter by 10 meter cubes and stack them to the moon. It is none of your concern nor do you have the right to even inquire about them as we pay for that land and its our choice since we "PAY" for the right to utilize that space and neither you nor anyone else can TELL us what to do with it. Consider that an indignatious reply however the point is basicly GTFOI. So, in closing to you MR TSO Refugee, maybe you might ought to reconsider your stance on things as your point was never made your concern was only for yourself and if you were being a concerend neighbor you would have respected Pahoa's responce to you whether it was short or even vague as that is her right. Give respect you will get it and in this situation you gave none. Have a Nice Day Sincerely, Shadow Weaver , Co-Founder of Jade Wolf, SLVISIONS, and AN ANCIENT. _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Alexa Hope Registered User Join date: 8 Dec 2004 Posts: 670 01-02-2005 02:21 I have just visited Carlisle to see for myself, before posting on here. Although you should be able to build whatever you wish on your land, personally I would not like to look out from my plot and see the gorilla. A lot of people, me included, want to have a pleasant, natural view from their land and I can understand why the person sold the plot back to the owner of the sim. You may wish to discount the view of a newbie but nevertheless this is my opinion. Happy New Year Alexa Starax Statosky Unregistered User Join date: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,099 01-02-2005 07:33 Can you all take a moment to consider King Kong's feelings in all of this. Monkeys have feelings to!!! Pahoa Jade Just Me Join date: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 115 01-02-2005 07:40 Dont worry hun, I went and sat with him today for a bit. We had a nice talk and he is feeling much better now. He promised not to go stomping anyone or grabbing passing water craft or air craft from the sky. :) _____________________ Plumeria... Jade Passions Lingerie, Hawthorne 19,27 Plumeria Designs, Carlisle 113,239 Plumeria Properties - Rental Homes to fit your lifestyle. Siobhan Taylor Nemesis Join date: 13 Aug 2003 Posts: 5,476 01-02-2005 07:40 I've not been there to look yet, so apart from posted pics, I have no idea what the land looks like in those sims. However, I have to ask how someone can put Starax's work down by comparing it to the work of 'the best builders in SL'...? Most people would probably agree that Starax IS one of the best builders in SL, certainly in the top half dozen... Next thing, you'll be calling Maxx or Lordfly amateurs... Sheesh! _____________________ http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/ Ursa Falcone Rocket Scientist Join date: 26 Mar 2004 Posts: 1,989 01-02-2005 07:57 King Kong can come live with me...Right off my dock! I will sleep on his head. Loving the King since 19?? _____________________ From: someone Jeska Linden: I'm closing this thread because it's obviously overstepped the boundaries of useful conversation, even for the off-topic forum. katykiwi Moonflower Esquirette Join date: 5 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,489 01-02-2005 08:24 This is an old old dilemma here in SL, one that has also cropped up with controversy on the forums. The two schools present the same arguments and there is a call for zoning or Linden intervention. Yes there are some land owners who deliberately build a terrible build or block a water way just to force neighboring owners to buy them out at exorbitant prices but Pahoa, Shadow and Crimson (hi Crim! :) ) are the some of the nicest members in SL. Crimson was my neighbor for a long time in Mauve and I know with certainty that he is very concerned with maintaining the beauty of a build. There is a solution to this problem. If you want total control of a sim then buy your own island sim. There used to be Linden enforcement of theme sims such as Darkwood, but that was stopped. Even now when people move into Ravenglass they can build a club or hold BINGO events every hour 24/7 if they choose. You cant stop that or control it. You will learn that things change quickly in SL horizon and the only thing you can count on is that there will be change. Builds up, builds down..overnight. Sometimes a build can annoy you, such as that giant man seated on toilet that pops up now and then, but there is nothing that can be done except to ignore it. By the way, Crim's Kong was my neighbor for a while, as was his dragon, and I thought it was a lot of fun! Kong stood guard over our pretty cove at Mauve Falls protecting us all. :) Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 12:12 Yesterday I felt like retiring from the forums, and even pressing "release" on my land. But after sleeping on it, I thought -- but I have paid, year-long subscriptions and investments, and of course I should stay and continue my business in the face of difficulties. As Hiro Pendragon said in another thread, this is a very high-risk environment in SL and it's not for the faint of heart. One of the great liabilities is the "mob justice" meted out on the forum, as one player put it to me. I continue to feel that public discussions should not be confused with mob justice, but I'm beginning to wonder. Shadow seemed to think that I "outed" myself by answering this public but anonymous post, but most people would have figured it out anyway after Elle's post. I don't see any need to abandon this avatar, despite many people's hurt feelings, and I'm going to soldier on. If you don't like Prokofy, you can always get to know one of my nicer alts. The reason I can go on is this tiny newbie voice, this brave little post in a thicket of scorn and derision from older players. To wit: From: someone Although you should be able to build whatever you wish on your land, personally I would not like to look out from my plot and see the gorilla. A lot of people, me included, want to have a pleasant, natural view from their land and I can understand why the person sold the plot back to the owner of the sim. Thank you, Alexa, God bless you. You voiced what many think and wish and you should feel empowered. Given the high temperature of self-righteous indignation in all of these posts, I have to reiterate: 1. I asked Pahoa repeatedly and restated my concerns not because I was hounding her, but because I was trying to allay what seemed like really startling over-reaction and indignation over a simple request. 2. The person who inquired about the water didn't sell back precisely because she could be assured by this entire discussion that a) King Kong isn't moving to this side of the bay and b) there isn't some huge store to appear. 3. Lisse, in these posts I have taken on 3-4 players who have had a long ride without much of a challenge. My statement about the "beta test love fest with the Lindens" is actually an apt description of a common on-line game phenom described as the "fanboyz" problem elsewhere. It comes with the territory. All those adulatory bowing-and-scraping "Lindens We Luv Ya" type of posts that came in the wake of this latest hardware crashes are typical, and it helps to both poke fun at this phenom and push back. When Verizon or Time Warner mess up or crash, you don't see customer boards filling up with messages like "Hugz TW luv ya" or "Here's a Christmas cookie, Verizon". Irate customers are irate customers, and it used to be in the old American business lexicon, "The customer is always right." I'll remind you that this dispute began because I went to bat for a customer, and the dispute with Ulrika began because I went to bat for the concept of group projects, which I had, not being punished. That's not some kind of sinister "agenda," it's just representing an interest -- maybe not yours, but try to rent out YOUR property with King Kong in your tenants' face and then come back and talk. 4. I do not sell land with any kind of "guaranteed view" or any such false claim. Buyers are grownups. And I've been highly flexible in solving existing view issues with buyers as they know, even willing to buy back. I take Sam's advice to heart and I will definitely try the "rental only" idea on my next project. It's true that at any moment Blue Burke could swoop down and buy the whole bunch of lots and put in a store -- that, frankly, was my worst fear going into it. But I've talked to Blue Burke, and now that he's a proud house owner himself with purchased waterway rights, and had a chance to think of other issues I've raised, he isn't really so inclined. Really, he, Anshe, and others have "enough". There are so many new sims, and so much of their unsold land, that they don't need to invade what is clearly a residential sim and carve it up. Maybe when the land market is less soft for sellers, that could change, but we can only try, right? My experiment isn't the first of its kind nor the last. Many will have to be tried, and obviously in the face of tremendous intolerance, suspicion, and scorn from some old players. Who cares? When I first flew around SL, I thought it was fun to land on a dragon's head and play in a waterfall. But when I invested in land, suddenly I had to turn around my perspective. A waterfall causes lag. A dragon's head isn't fun to look at day after day. It would never have occurred to me to start any fight over King Kong. I didn't think it was a wise design decision, and that has NOTHING to do with the actual workmanship or artistry of Starax -- who is obviously excellent. The fact is, King Kong belongs not in WATER but in the JUNGLE. I saw some of my neighbours sitting on his arms enjoying a chat, and I realized that some people would enjoy this whimsy. But they enjoy it more when they fly to it for a visit, not stare at it off their porch. It's OK to voice these concerns. Pahoa engineered a stampede of support for King Kong among the five percent of players who are her friends AND post in forums. But there is a huge population out there, and Alexa has indicated that underneath all that surface adulation, there is the common-sense issue of people wanting to look at natural land -- full stop! Among the more inane comments is a carping about the use of the word "build" or assignment of the issue of King Kong to Pahoa Jade. Obviously we can look at the object creator -- Crimson. And obviously we see it's sculpture. The term "builds" is generic about stuff in the water. As for Pendari's comments about the whole Ulrika debate, that's too tiresome to rehearse here. Go and read that thread and continue the debate back there if you wish and try to trap me in contradictions all day if you want -- it's a great sport! -- but the fact is we all know Ulrika *campaigned vociferously* to affect Linden policy -- namely taxation of barons and group project leaders -- and that's way, way different than merely "starting a discussion". Why? Because she used her perch from Neualtenberg, with its avowed social democratic community, and its avowed subsidized Linden status, to get the visibility and clout to seek her way. Let's just hope the Lindens have the good sense to stay FAR away from this idea -- they're already losing Schwanson over poor service issues -- no need to club people like him with retroactive taxes, too. Many people have said "well go buy a sim" -- uh, yeah, I tried that. Actdually buy FOUR sims might be a better piece of advice LOL. Buy a private island? Not on your life. Go read all the posts about the buggyness of private sims. Anyway, who wants to try residential experiments off the grid? It's much more useful to try them on the grid with telehubs nearby -- those are more widespread game conditions. Let me round out this post by noting once again: A. No one asked Pahoa Jade and her group to *change a thing*. They asked about *intentions*. This caused an uproar. That kind of oversensitive reaction is displayed for all to see now. It shows the Lindens what a hornets nest this is, and it seems like they've fled from the problem, but I'm not going to, and the customer isn't, either, so it seems this gorilla-in-a-teapot is going to blow over. If Shadow files some kind of "abuse" report and the Lindens fish out the IM transcripts, I'm totally confident that it will be rapidly evident that there is no harassment, merely an attempt to find out intensions in a wall of oversensitive suspicion. B. I personally intend to do nothing but fly around the lovely Starax creatures or steer a boat around them. I don't intend to negrate, to get into fractious Hatfield-McCoy type of disputes, or do anything but trying to keep a sim that I bought residential to the best of my ability. C. I hope Pahoa and co. get a lot more dwell as people come out and look at these creatures. They can form their own judgement as to whether they have the same beauty they had in a falls in Mauve. It's not a question of whether the people running them are "nice" or "my old neighbors" or "trusted old players". Try to look at it dispassionately as a problem for these waterway sims with lots of islands -- they don't really fit. Jauani Wu pancake rabbit Join date: 7 Apr 2003 Posts: 3,835 01-02-2005 12:18 :eek: :eek: :eek: OMG! KING KONG! EOM :eek: :eek: :eek: _____________________ http://wu-had.blogspot.com/ read my blog Mecha Jauani Wu hero of justice __________________________________________________ "Oh Jauani, you're terrible." - khamon fate katykiwi Moonflower Esquirette Join date: 5 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,489 01-02-2005 13:01 Prokofky, Its not that there is a blind "love fest" with the Lindens as you characterize it, it's that we have seen the amazing growth and development of SL over the past year. Consider all the content that exists, and all the things you are able to do and create in SL; it's an undeniably wonderful accomplishment. Nothing is perfect, and each step along the way requires ironing out the bugs, but still new content is added regularly. And these are major content additions such as streaming music and animations. As far as private island sims and the bugginess concern, I have a private island sim and its all good as far as I am concerned. I love it and have never regretted my decision to get one. I think concluding that veteran members feel scorn or intolerance for new members is a bit harsh. I know I certainly love having all the new members in SL and the entire community benefits from their creativity and ideas. Try giving us a chance too! :o I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Crimson Sunchaser King Kong on Water Lover Join date: 11 Mar 2003 Posts: 113 01-02-2005 13:01 Just incase anyone forgot we are talking 2 different sims here. As far as I'm concerned you can build what you want in Ravenglass. As Katy (Hi Katy) said I'm easy to get along with. If you treat me with the respect you want then you will get it back. You may have noticed I'm not a "fanboy" even though I started the game in march of 03. As far as paying for the game, we all do or have so I dont want to hear that arguement. I don't give a shit if you like Kong or not. I do,I placed him there and I wont move him because someone dosent like his looks. He was put there as a joke to Shadow when he came back. I won't be taking him down just for Prokofy Neva.You keep saying Kong dont matter cause he's around the corner but how many times have you bitched about him in these posts? 7-8 now? The other things near Ravenglass were put there on OUR land because we like them. If you want to push it I own 3/4s of the stuff Starax has made. I could fill that plot with them. Last but not least I repeat I OWN ALL Of THE ART... Not Pahoa, Not Shadow. You bitched at Pahoa without even checking to see who owned them. Next time know what your talking about before you start. You said more than once that Pahoa Placed them there. Crimson Sunchaser Torley Linden Enlightenment! Join date: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 16,530 01-02-2005 13:16 Okay, I gotta quote Siggy here... I couldn't resist: PSYCHE! KING KONG DIED FOR OUR SINS! :D _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 14:28 Crimson, Everything you've posted was already understood long ago, if you check the thread. Everybody LONG SINCE clicked on the animals and saw you were the owner. It's merely that Pahoa ventured to speak on behalf of your group and take up the issue of the builds placed and represented the issue on behalf of your group. She didn't say "IM Crimson, he's offline" -- she herself embarked on commenting about them and their placement in-world and then taking this once-private dispute on to the forums. So take up with Pahoa directly the issue of how your ownership/art/choices were represented. I can't see King Kong. Thank God! Well, OK, I can see him WAY in the distance because he's THIS BIG but I change my draw distance, I'm fine. I use King Kong in this discussion as a metaphor, a simile, a whatever all those things are that we learned in English class, to make a point: KING KONG LIVES. King Kong is always waiting to COME TO YOUR HOME. King Kong roars! And I will come to LOVE King Kong! Because it can get worse in SL and DOES! I'm going to bite my tongue for now...but big ugly builds that make King Kong look like Tiny Tim tripping through the tulips are right around the corner! *Bites tongue*. I'm taking everyone's advice to heart and I'm figuring -- if you don't like the SL weather, wait 5 minutes, it will change! Meanwhile, I bought some more overpriced water from a fellow who had just bought overpriced water and put it up for resale understanding that water gets really pricey in an area like this where people are arguing and trying to protect views! Great deal, fella! Do I need to repeat it again? I need to repeat it again. 1) No one asked you to remove anything, Crimson, Pahoa, and Shadow. Repeat: nobody asked you to move, change or do a thing. They asked if water was for sale -- people sell patches of water. It isn't. End of story. 2) Someone who saw the placements of sculptures asked if they could get their money back and move -- THEY WERE WILLING TO SELL AND MOVE, THEY DIDN"T ASK YOU TO SELL AND MOVE. Let's repeat it again in slow-motion: THEY...WERE...WILLING...TO...MOVE...THEY...DIDN'T...ASK...YOU...TO...SELL...AND...MOVE. 3) This extreme action was put to a halt by my intervention, asking Pahoa what the general plans were, finding out that they didn't involve a big store, weathering all her insults about our development, brushing aside her bitches about my customer's build, etc. 4) Nobody has lost a thing or suffered at all, everyone is continuing to play their game. EOM. 5) No one is going to negrate, attack, or pressure your builds your land your group or you or try to take away your right to do what you want on your own land. Indeed, we direct the considerable traffic out there now, without further comment, towards the King Kong because many people want to see him now and you should be getting LOADS of dwell LOL. 6) Don't confuse a critique of your design and style choices and community discussion of what people like to look at when they set up residences, with some kind of concerted attempt to make you change or move or do anything. When you put big things out in public, expect comments. Dallas Moreau Registered User Join date: 7 Dec 2004 Posts: 146 01-02-2005 14:57 "I'm easy to get along with" but "I don't give a shit if you like Kong or not"? Think about that. I agree, what you do with your land is ultimately up to you. If another person keeps after you about it, that person is not only wrong, but rude. But there's also this: Bringing this issue to the forums is the best way to guarantee an unsatisfactory result. You bring it to the forums to embarrass a person, to focus scorn on him or her, to try to turn the community against the person. You don't do it to negotiate or try to solve the problem. The person who brought it here shouldn't have stooped to that; the person who responded shouldn't have belittled himself. This issue should've been kept between the parties involved. If you couldn't solve it, you might have had a cooling-off period before trying again. Or you could've sought mediation, or a number of other things. Doing it this way means that one side or the other is bludgeoned in some sort of twisted popularity contest. Finally, the newbie/established player thing is very clear in this thread. As someone who has been condescended to a number of times inworld on that issue, I'll say fuck that. It doesn't belong anywhere in SL. I happen to like the Kong statue because it shows some talent, not because it's made by a particular person. I don't like it standing in the middle of the water somewhere because putting it there is kitsch, as was said. But that's just my opinion, and the owner has the right to do what she wants with it. Not because it's made by somebody who is supposedly "famous" nor because she's somebody who is supposedly "respected", but because it's a native right given to all of us. Please tell the rest of us where this elite, "tight knit community" is. For many of us who haven't been around that long, SL is a sprawling, chaotic place and I don't see much difference in merit or quality between the builds, products, or behavior of "older" players and newbies. I treat new people and people who've been here awhile the same way. If that's a mistake, tell me, and I'll be on my way. _____________________ Crimson Sunchaser King Kong on Water Lover Join date: 11 Mar 2003 Posts: 113 01-02-2005 15:22 From: someone As for "caring about the waterways" I'll simply submit for public review this giant King Kong. Fortunately it's not in my customers' sight line. It's whimsical the first 10 times you see it...by the 100th, well you saw that movie with Fay Ray one weekend but you don't watch it daily. Note that people buy in this area to put up residences -- but then the next morning they wake up with a gorilla in their sight lines. Er....I dunno...because you put a giant King Kong in the water? That would be my guess. Not really a presumption, just....a King Kong! Well, er, we did buy there first. In fact an alt of mine had a very friendly conversation on the first day of your build, asking about your boats, whether you built them. And I did inquire politely yesterday what your "vision" was seeing that you were a business, and a business with a King Kong in the water LOL. In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong? If I were nearsighted, I wouldn't be seeing the hulk of King Kong in the distance, hmmm? ((From page 3))--- And I imagine that despite all her indignation, Pahoa will think a little bit twice before she fills up the sea with more King-Kong like creatures And if that person has misrepresented a story -- completely leaving out the highly salient facts that SHE slammed my development, not visa-versa, SHE made unsubstantiated accusations against me, and SHE put a King Kong in the water LOL. So no need to try to "educate" me -- the facts speak for themselves. If people are so smug and cliquish that they cling to their friend and hug her to death despite the dubious merit of her putting King Kong in the water well....but I do want to remind you again that it was a request for INFORMATION so a customer could MOVE not an "agenda" or a "tearing down" or anything of the sort. Well, your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever From: someone Everything you've posted was already understood long ago, if you check the thread. Everybody LONG SINCE clicked on the animals and saw you were the owner. If you had dropped it LONG SINCE I wouldn't have said it again. Read from page 3 quote on. Was that LONG SINCE? Read the next to last one. The "your dear friend Pahoa conveniently left out that a) she had giant animals in the water and b) she was merely asked for information and c) she had slammed me AND decided to take it to forums, but hey, whatever" Yes Whatever. Dallas I stand by what I said. I don't care what people think of it. It's there for our group. Had someone asked me nicely to move it I may have.(as Katy said..I am a nice guy)(at least I am until someone steps on my or my friends rights) I even had 2 people rate me because Kong was there (before all this started). I'm done being nice. I was when this moron kept bugging Pahoa. Prokofy didn't have a problem bringing Blue Burkes name to the forums, why would he have a problem if someone brought his here? I was on that night he kept after her. Pahoa and I were on Voice. Had he stopped when he said then none of this would be here. Crimson Sunchaser Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-02-2005 15:34 From: Prokofy Neva Funny how a neighbour's simple inquiry about plans, or suggestion to join in something perhaps more low-impact gets transmogrified into "an imposition of will" by the me-generation, spoiled sandbox set in SL. You talk a good game Prokofy, but you've already stated in other threads what your views are towards applying pressure on people to get them to bow to your whims. If you need your memory refreshed you advocated people starting grassroots campaigns to neg rate people whose builds you disapprove of. In Pahoa's shoes, had I read that thread, I'd likely have reacted the same way. Tcoz made a great post in this thread. Read it over and over again until it sinks in. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Sensual Casanova Spoiled Brat Join date: 28 Feb 2004 Posts: 4,807 01-02-2005 17:16 From: Pendari Lorentz One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. :) Pen, I usually agree with everything you say on the forums because a majority of the time they are very calm and I notice that you try and look at both sides to every story, but this comment here, bugs the hell out of me... Just because someone has been here longer doesn't give them any right to do things to others and a new player should NOT be afraid to stand up to them just because the date they were born. (I am not saying anyone in this thread did worng, I am a little off topic and just directing these comments). You are right some people do run in a tight group... and I for one have stood up to them many times, and yes there are consequences, instead of one person mad at you, you get ten... big deal! But, there are still people like me out there that will not judge based on the opinion of others and not with out getting to know you... it is wrong to try and discourage people to stand up to an "older player" .... just because they are older doesn't mean they are perfect. _____________________ Sensual Designs & Animations Sensual Productions Teleport to Sensual Designs & Animations Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 17:35 From: someone If you need your memory refreshed you advocated people starting grassroots campaigns to neg rate people whose builds you disapprove of. Yep, I sure do advocate this as a possible tool to use in extreme circumstances. Sure do! But obviously "grassroots" consists of more than one person, correct? So there'd have to be a community a people or at least a group of 10 who would take this upon themselves, correct? Am I joined by 9 other people who aren't my alts? No. Are there too many nervous nellies at the gates? Yep. Is it still worth discussing? Yep. Did I advocate it at any time for Pahoa Jade and Crimson and the others? No. Did I negrate Pahoa, Crimson, etc. others? No. First, I opened up a conversation with them about whether they planned to build big, so that someone who wanted me to buy back their land could have me pay them, and they could move. Now, was that a grassroots campaign to negrate? No. Am I afraid of advocating grassroots campaigns to negrate? No. Why? Because there are certain intractable situations controlled by absolutely unaccountable assholes that the community should feel empowered to deal with. Everybody has a negrate button. Use it! Is it necessary in this case with Pahoa? No. Pahoa said she isn't building a big store. She's put out some animals to display. They may not last forever. But at least people can maneuver boats around them. Next question? Obviously you first try low-key methods -- inquiry, discussion, seeking of a compromise, and so on. I can remember a situation where I and some neighbours in an area tried discussion, offering money, offering swaps of land, etc. etc. In the end, the person got a negrate because of their intractable refusal to understand that they had completely blocked access to land with a gigantic build that had no place in what had already been purchased by someone as a residential sim, and filled up by houses. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using your negrate. That's what it's there for. Or did you think it's only supposed to be used once a year on a griefer? But why? People are horrified at the thought of negativity! Especially group negativity! Horrors! But turn it around and you see it is a highly educational tool to help people out of their horrible frustration and helplessness in this came. If Crimson collected 20 negrates on his King Kong, he might have to think twice about it. If he collects 20 posrates, may the best man win. Negrates are eminently reversible. I can and do reverse them. Negrates should become an actively used function in the game on builds and people should seek to improve the quality of builds and avoid the basic annoying builds that everyone can agree on: lagging, dragging down a sim FPS with excessive scripts, blocking access to land, blocking a view substantially. From: someone Tcoz made a great post in this thread. Read it over and over again until it sinks in. Er, could you raise the intellectual level of your discussion slightly? People don't believe something because they repeat it mindlessly and it "sinks in". You attempt to use logic and facts for persuasion if you want to be taken seriously. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 17:53 Prokofy, Here is some rope and a shovel. I will cut you some more slack with the rope because you are doing a great job of hanging yourself. The shovel is for the pit you are digging for yourself. You may as well return the nose clip too, because reading your posts, it's quite obvious your S--T don't stink. You will say anything, twist any comment, babble on in endless paragraphs about your self appointed zealot for harrassing anyone who's build does not meet your standards. SL is about TOLERANCE, but reading your posts, you'd rather shove your ideals down everyone's throat. Snide remarks about age, or liberals etc, get you nowhere and your purpose is diminished. Go ahead, push the revert button. you will do the community a favor. _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 18:08 From: someone Prokofy, Here is some rope and a shovel. I will cut you some more slack with the rope because you are doing a great job of hanging yourself. The shovel is for the pit you are digging for yourself. You may as well return the nose clip too, because reading your posts, it's quite obvious your S--T don't stink. You will say anything, twist any comment, babble on in endless paragraphs about your self appointed zealot for harrassing anyone who's build does not meet your standards. SL is about TOLERANCE, but reading your posts, you'd rather shove your ideals down everyone's throat. Snide remarks about age, or liberals etc, get you nowhere and your purpose is diminished. Go ahead, push the revert button. you will do the community a favor. I'm surprised at such a nasty post coming from such an honorable player as yourself who I've heard described as an all-around decent guy. What exactly is your beef here? That I stuck to my guns and advocated negrating? That I approached a neighbor to protect a view? That I stood up against the smug, self-referential, cliquish old players? Er...WHO is the community, Weedy? It's you and your posse? You speak on behalf of "everybody"? Nobody else can be heard? I would urge you to provide one shred of evidence that I have ever harassed anyone over a build. Using a negrate is not harassment. It is legal under the TOS. The Lindens could never, ever accuse anyone of harassment for using a legal function under the TOS. Let's revisit the 7 negrates I have awarded in my short time in the game. -- At least 2-3 are accidents during attempts to press on a name and give someone a triple rating in a laggy club, then crashing and not being able to find that person. If anyone feels they are negrated falsely, they can always contact you. I've never had anyone ask me anything and those people were either trials or never came online to worry about it. -- 2 were to griefers -- widely acknowledges as such by all concerned, including Lindens. One had some kind of camera that followed us around on a property. Another built mile-long strings of wood way up into the air and bounced people around with scripts. -- 2 negrates went to one of those controversial security-script people who bounce you way back home merely because you accidently went on their property while getting lost outside the telehub. -- 1 negrate was used for a building that marred the land and blocked access and made land unusable and unsellable. Now you may not have 7 negrates in your possession, but I hardly think this qualifies me as quite the menace to the community that you'd like to portray me as. Even if I had 47, so what? Awarding negrates for building is legal under the TOS. Sure, I tend to answer in long-winded paragraphs, especially when parsing sentence by sentence through somebody's equally long-winded retort. Skip over it if you don't want to read it and read my lips: I didn't harass Pahoa or do anything to her actionable under the TOS. If SL is "about tolerance" why this constant heedless hedonistic slash-and-burn approach to so many builds? Heaps of burning slag formerly known as pretty natural sims litter the Lnden servers. If SL is about "tolerance," why the "hanging sheriff" approach? Or did you think you can enforce you values on other people through forums mob justice? I don't respond to threats and incitements to commit suicide, thank you very much. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 18:17 From: Prokofy Neva I don't respond to threats and incitements to commit suicide, thank you very much. From: Prokofy Yesterday I felt like retiring from the forums, and even pressing "release" on my land You said it, not me. Need a bigger shovel? _____________________ Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-02-2005 18:22 I am not "on either side"... but have been reading this in its entirety. I'll limit my comments to one thing. "SL is about tolerance." Who the hell says so? I flat out reject that assertion. My "inworld game" has zero to do with tolerance. It has to do with "me and my interests" - nothing more. Now, my interests happen to shift and change - from minute to minute at times. But, tolerance is nowhere in my game equation. Some other people's games involve socializing, virtual sex, political crap and commercialism. Good for them. Just don't force that on me. Someone once told me that SL is whatever you want it to be. Since you can make, script and design whatever you want given the time and effort, there is no need to buy land or anything else technically. It is absolutely possible to be a hermit in the game --- tolerance has ZERO to do with SL if you don't want it to be a factor. (Note: grieifing is NOT the opposite of tolerance.) You can now return to your discussion .... I will return to my game where tolerance has zero place. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 18:31 From: someone I would urge you to provide one shred of evidence that I have ever harassed anyone over a build. Ok. Let us get this right... You merely asked Pahoa a simple question? She answered with a simple " I don't know just yet". Then for some reason unbeknown to yourself, she comes here and posts. I have never meet Pahoa before yesterday, but I dont need a degree in rocket science to understand that someone would merely rant in the forums because someone asked a simple question of concern. Reading your posts, it immensly obvious, your contempt is the issue of this thread. Not King Kong, or your customers, or your nieghbors. You don't have a humble prim in your avatar. For someone who can't accept criticism, you sure like to dish it out. _____________________ Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-02-2005 18:33 From: someone Originally Posted by Pendari Lorentz One very important thing you have to still learn about SL is that we are a tight knit community. There are some that are *very* highly respected in this community. To begin an argument against them accusing them of exaggerations and fabrications is a sure fire way to keep your argument from being read. Right or wrong, that simply *is* a fact. So in your first paragraph you just turned off a lot of people from even trying to see your point of view. Just a note of advice. From: Sensual Casanova Just because someone has been here longer doesn't give them any right to do things to others and a new player should NOT be afraid to stand up to them just because the date they were born. it is wrong to try and discourage people to stand up to an "older player" .... just because they are older doesn't mean they are perfect. I agree Sensual. :) It is also why I stated "right or wrong" in my post. However, I stand by my main point of that paragraph which is, if you come out in your first paragraph of a post insulting and name calling an established, well known player, you *will* have *many* people that will not listen to a single other word you have to say. It is a simple fact. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 18:38 From: someone You merely asked Pahoa a simple question? She answered with a simple " I don't know just yet". Yep, that's how it went. And she got more and more indignant and I had to keep explaining it was on behalf of a customer OVER AND OVER. The first contact with her was an in-game PM/e-mail. She answered me from her email while logged off. It might have ended there -- but it didn't. In-world, she escalated -- because the very thought that someone might ask to buy from her, or seek to know something about her plans irritated the hell out of her. She went into it already peeved at something she read in the forum here evidently about Blue Burke's build in Clunn/Dowden. She decided I might do the same thing to her. She escalated and escalted. I think it's not only because she was having a bad sim day but because she had just set up house after moving from Lusk and escaping what she thought was forever from vexing neighbour problems. Let me repeat again in words of one syllable: Pa-ho-a did not lose a thing she gets to do what she wants. Er...for someone who is immune to criticism or doesn't have a humble prim in their avatar, I certainly have set myself up for SLEWS of criticism. I've listened to it all, and where it makes sense, I abide by it. Where it is assassinine, I push back. Yep, I do have contempt for assassine, old, cliquish, mob-justice beta-test-love-fest players who first showed contempt for me. But hey, if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes, it could change. Why don't you all get off this now? The earth moved on its axis, the LL servers turned and hum, and life goes on. King Kong is frolicking in his bay, and people are buying plots at Ravenglass and I'm widening some of the lots and buying some water nearby. Life goes on! Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 19:02 From: Prokofy Neva Yep, I do have contempt for assassine, old, cliquish, mob-justice beta-test-love-fest players who first showed contempt for me! A simple "Thank you for your response" would have completed it. Move along. However, you have proven, in spades, that it takes two to tango. Being unsatisfied with a response (good or bad, I dunno, I was not there) you had a hand in on this situation and have not offered one word of contrition. I believe you owe Pahora an apology and if what you say is true, she would probably do the same. Try humble sometime...you be suprised how far a little good will can go. Respect is earned...not enforced. _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 19:23 From: someone you had a hand in on this situation and have not offered one word of contrition. I believe you owe Pahora an apology I am sorry that Pahoa has had to experience any kind of grief, given the vicissitudes of moving from Lusk and having to set up shop in a new place. But she took what was a minor scuffle in e-mail and Ims out to the forums and made a long rant. Furthermore, she went into attack mode immediately, before I commented on her/Crimson's sculptures and began accusing me of being a rapacious land baron wanting to get rich quick and escape the area with cash after scarring the land. That was a ridiculous claim completely unsubstantiated. She conveniently left that out of her story. Here this scion of the community, beloved by all, showed a not-very-pretty-face to someone by immediately going *first* into attack mode and trashing a customer's build to boot. So I'm afraid that requires a push-back. You people have been at this far, far too long with no push-back. Why don't YOU try a little respect and stop lording it over the place? I feel she overreacted and made it worse for no good reason, given that nobody negrated her, pressured her, or asked her to do a thing but merely sought *information* to *make a decision*. So I don't feel I need to make some kind of public act of contrition. Sorry, Woody, that I just can't conform to the hanging sheriff's order to get on my knees. Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-02-2005 19:24 From: Prokofy Neva Obviously you first try low-key methods -- inquiry, discussion, seeking of a compromise, and so on. I can remember a situation where I and some neighbours in an area tried discussion, offering money, offering swaps of land, etc. etc. In the end, the person got a negrate because of their intractable refusal to understand that they had completely blocked access to land with a gigantic build that had no place in what had already been purchased by someone as a residential sim, and filled up by houses. The first part of the above I agree with. The second part is just plain wrong. If after speaking with a neighbor and trying to sway them to your viewpoint they don't come around to seeing things your way, the next step is to accept it, respect their right to do as they please on their own land, and let it go. That's it. End of story. To do anything more is to assume arrogantly that you have some sort of entitlement to define standards for others. You don't. Ever. From: Prokofy Neva There's absolutely nothing wrong with using your negrate. That's what it's there for. Or did you think it's only supposed to be used once a year on a griefer? But why? People are horrified at the thought of negativity! Especially group negativity! Horrors! But turn it around and you see it is a highly educational tool to help people out of their horrible frustration and helplessness in this came. If Crimson collected 20 negrates on his King Kong, he might have to think twice about it. If he collects 20 posrates, may the best man win. Educational tool? LOL. You use neg rates to lift people from the burden of their ignorance, which, I imagine, you would define as anyone who doesn't share your subjective view. The ratings system was poorly thought out. Why discourage people from trying to be creative by making them feel they have to somehow live up to standards other than their own, or build for reasons other than their own enjoyment? It's antisocial, unkind, and inherantly unfair, which is why the community has evolved to feel the way they do about the use of negs as you describe... it's essentially blackmail at the price of making people feel like shit. The punishment is worse than the crime, which is why they are so seldom used for anything but behavior or things that are truly offensive. SL is not a contest for those who don't wish to make it into one, and it's not my place or yours to force anyone into one. From: Prokofy Neva Negrates are eminently reversible. I can and do reverse them. Like I said, that's pretty much blackmail when used for something as inane as not liking someone's build. From: Prokofy Neva Negrates should become an actively used function in the game on builds and people should seek to improve the quality of builds and avoid the basic annoying builds that everyone can agree on: lagging, dragging down a sim FPS with excessive scripts, blocking access to land, blocking a view substantially. You're welcome to wish the SL world worked differently than it does, but it doesn't change the fact that it works the way it does. Rather than try to force others to change to your standards and tastes you would do better to accept that it's not going to happen. If you stop worrying about what other people do and just concentrate on your own creative expression you'll enjoy SL a lot more and piss a lot less people off in the process. If someone violates the TOS, report them. If they haven't, accept their right to do as they please and simply live and let live. From: Prokofy Neva Er, could you raise the intellectual level of your discussion slightly? People don't believe something because they repeat it mindlessly and it "sinks in". You attempt to use logic and facts for persuasion if you want to be taken seriously. No, obviously I can't raise the intellectual level of the discussion since you ignored the substance of the remark and chose to make an ad hominem attack instead. Perhaps you should follow your own advice? _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-02-2005 19:28 From: Prokofy Neva But she took what was a minor scuffle in e-mail and Ims. Can you say "harassment" _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 19:41 From: someone If after speaking with a neighbor and trying to sway them to your viewpoint they don't come around to seeing things your way, the next step is to accept it, respect their right to do as they please on their own land, and let it go. That's it. End of story. To do anything more is to assume arrogantly that you have some sort of entitlement to define standards for others. You don't. Ever. Not so, G.I. What you are saying would be true in the normal course of things. For example, with Pahoa, who is generally a decent builder, sensitive to the landscape and her neighbours, whatever one feels about hers and Crimson's design placement choices. This is a normal situation that certainly doesn't require a negrate, and doesn't get a negrate because the inquiry was made, the information was gathered, and everybody but you settled back down to their game. However I would certainly find it completely appropriate to negrate a neighbour with a giant, obstructive, ugly, scripted, lagging build. Absolutely! And I hope others would join me on it. And this idea that this is "arrogant" or "entitlement" completely obscures the point that the person making the giant ugly build gets to be arrogant and be entitled, but I'm supposed to be helpless. Bullshit! I certainly don't plan to be helpless in the face of a laggy, obstructive, nuisance build. I've negrated a build and reversed the negrate the minute the person put back their weekend fooling-around back in their inventory. They came online for an hour and put a Big Ugly on their lot -- but you're online all week and have to stare at it day after day. Inventories are a great place for things like that. A negrate helps to concentrate the mind wonderfully. It's a great conversation-starter :) From: someone Educational tool? LOL. You use neg rates to lift people from the burden of their ignorance, which, I imagine, you would define as anyone who doesn't share your subjective view. *Shrugs*. We'll see about that. I think it might be instructive to have a Big Ugly Negrated Build This Week sort of running theme and post it here to see just how many people really agree with a negrate and why there's all this fuss where we can't push back and can't use negrate and can't start to rid the landscape of thoughtless obnoxiousness like this. From: someone The ratings system was poorly thought out. Why discourage people from trying to be creative by making them feel they have to somehow live up to standards other than their own, or build for reasons other than their own enjoyment? Huh? I hardly think anyone's creativity is ever stifled by the fact that you can use a negrate or that I advocate a negrate. Is Pahoa crouching in a corner? Hardly. Get a grip. This is a game with negrate in it. Too bad. From: someone It's antisocial, unkind, and inherantly unfair, which is why the community has evolved to feel the way they do about the use of negs as you describe... The negrate is a wonderful tool put in by the Lindens. Thank the Lord! And maybe your clique evolved this way because it's a lot of skittish liberals -- and I mean deliberately to use the word liberal as a swear word here although I consider myself a classic liberal -- because they are so clutched up about any kind of judgement that they fear even common sense. Their minds are so open, their brains fall out. Your community evolved? Well guess what. It's evolving elsewhere. We're here, we're queer, get used to it. Lots of other people will come in the game and do things you don't like, among them using the negrate. From: someone It's essentially blackmail at the price of making people feel like shit. The punishment is worse than the crime, which is why they are so seldom used for anything but behavior or things that are truly offensive. Excuse me, it's legal under the TOS. If you established some informal usage barometer for it, too bad. It's there to be disrupted. I would advocate using it for big ugly builds that obstruct. The fact that I didn't negrate Crimson's King Kong ought to tell you my extreme tolerance level : ) From: someone SL is not a contest for those who don't wish to make it into one, and it's not my place or yours to force anyone into one. I get to use my negrate, just like you do. It's legal. From: someone Like I said, that's pretty much blackmail when used for something as inane as not liking someone's build. Shit happens. People already use it that way. Maybe it is used too loosely. But I do believe that it is possible to arrive at some rough consensus of what constitutes big bad ugly builds that can and should be negrated. Example: Blue Burke's gigantic club with giant feet extending down into a beautiful basin in Clunn/Dowden. I actually didn't get around to negrating that one because I thought I'd open it to discussion first. He's actually telling us it's just an experiment now and it may be changed or removed completely. That was an extremely useful exercise. From: someone You're welcome to wish the SL world worked differently than it does, but it doesn't change the fact that it works the way it does. Boomerang that right back to you, bub. It's no longer under your control. From: someone Rather than try to force others to change to your standards and tastes you would do better to accept that it's not going to happen. If you stop worrying about what other people do and just concentrate on your own creative expression you'll enjoy SL a lot more and piss a lot less people off in the process. If someone violates the TOS, report them. If they haven't, accept their right to do as they please and simply live and let live. Why don't you follow your own advice? I didn't violate the TOS, and what I advocate doesn't violate the TOS and it doesn't even encroach on an already-existing common understanding of what constitutes a big, bad, ugly build. Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 19:42 From: Weedy Herbst Can you say "harassment" Sure can. What Pahoa did was raise into a public forum/mob justice discussion an essentially minor dispute between 2 sims. What she did would have gotten her thread closed on Stratics. Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-02-2005 20:32 LOL, I almost don't have to reply to you at all. All anyone needs to do is hand you a bit of rope and you happily hang yourself with it. Your posts reek of arrogance and a sense of entitlement... and more importantly, a complete lack of empathy for anyone but yourself. From: Prokofy Neva This is a normal situation that certainly doesn't require a negrate, and doesn't get a negrate because the inquiry was made, the information was gathered, and everybody but you settled back down to their game. You don't seem very settled to me. In fact it seems you've elected yourself SL's arbiter of taste. That must be quite a burden to have to carry around with you. From: Prokofy Neva However I would certainly find it completely appropriate to negrate a neighbour with a giant, obstructive, ugly, scripted, lagging build. Absolutely! And I hope others would join me on it. And this idea that this is "arrogant" or "entitlement" completely obscures the point that the person making the giant ugly build gets to be arrogant and be entitled, but I'm supposed to be helpless. Bullshit! That would pretty much be a textbook example of a sense of entitlement. You cast yourself as the victim of other people's bad taste when in reality it's up to any land owner or builder to decide for themselves what value to place on your opinion. That value has to be earned. It didn't come included out of the box with your susbscription fee. Is your opinion so golden that a new builder just learning how to use the tools should be made to feel like shit until they hurry up and conform to your standards? That's pure arrogance. From: Prokofy Neva I think it might be instructive to have a Big Ugly Negrated Build This Week sort of running theme and post it here to see just how many people really agree with a negrate and why there's all this fuss where we can't push back and can't use negrate and can't start to rid the landscape of thoughtless obnoxiousness like this. Obnoxious is right, but you're pointing to the wrong source. In the above scenario it would be you being the obnoixous person, and it's quite sad that you don't see it. You may want to talk to Maxx Monde about how well self appointed architecture critics go over. He tried doing something similar as his way of introducing himself to the SL community and was nearly ridden out on a rail. People simply don't react well to that sort of thing. From: Prokofy Neva Huh? I hardly think anyone's creativity is ever stifled by the fact that you can use a negrate or that I advocate a negrate. Is Pahoa crouching in a corner? Hardly. Get a grip. This is a game with negrate in it. Too bad. Let me spell it out for you in simpler terms... suppose someone comes into SL who isn't a professional artist and has no previous related skills and buys a plot of land to enjoy tinkering around on. They're experimenting away, having fun, learning, enjoying being in a collaborative creative environment... then you come along and tell them their building sucks and they shouldn't mar the landscape with their crappy no-talent hackery and you give them their first negative rate... a permanent mark of disapproval. Now they feel like shit and are no longer having fun. They're self conscious and don't want to experiment and learn for fear of being ridiculed. Nice. Way to ruin someone else's experience. The harm caused to them would be far worse than you having to look at something you don't find aesthetially pleasing. From: Prokofy Neva The negrate is a wonderful tool put in by the Lindens. Thank the Lord! And maybe your clique evolved this way because it's a lot of skittish liberals -- and I mean deliberately to use the word liberal as a swear word here although I consider myself a classic liberal -- because they are so clutched up about any kind of judgement that they fear even common sense. Their minds are so open, their brains fall out. Huh? What does liberalism have to do with this? If you're equating empathy and a desire to make people feel welcomed and supported as they learn to express themselves creatively then I'll happily be considered a liberal. From: Prokofy Neva Your community evolved? Well guess what. It's evolving elsewhere. We're here, we're queer, get used to it. Lots of other people will come in the game and do things you don't like, among them using the negrate. "Your" community? Excuse me? It's interesting that you cast this in "us versus them" terms. You've also previously called it a "clique." That's a bit bizarre and paranoid. It's "our" community, of which every SL subscriber is an equal member, no matter how long they've been a part of SL, or how much their tastes deviate from yours. From: Prokofy Neva I get to use my negrate, just like you do. It's legal. Boomerang that right back to you, bub. It's no longer under your control. Was it ever in question that you have the same rights as I do? Under my control? There you go again. Why not simply accept and be a part of the world instead of fighting against it? I wouldn't presume to control anything... including my neighbors, nor would I submit to their control. You will never arrive at a common consensus of what constitutes good taste or bad. Tastes are inherantly subjective and this isn't a contest to see who gets to be the arbiter. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 20:52 You still don't get it. You're confuosing negrating as a way of criticizing and motivating a player who has made a big bad ugly obstructive laggy build with negrating wildly just when you feel like it, on a whim, such as to lash out at newbies or creative people. Why do that? I'm not suggesting athat at all. And I'm not imposing my taste or general sense of Western-world aesthetics on anyone. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that many people suffer from and many people agree about it. I'm for casting around to see where that area of agreement lies. We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land. Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would. Maxx Monde is among SL's best architects. I'm glad he ventured out into that thin ice of trying to indicate some standards -- based on RL aesthetics if nothing else -- for what constitutes "good". I'm not sure what he did, but I'm glad he tried. What I'm suggesting is actually different -- negrating in extreme circumstances of really bad builds. But I shouldn't have to keep characterizing it and qualifying it just to please you and all the other nervouse nellies. I'll just do it, and post it. And leave it at that. He certainly wasn't "ridden out on a rail" by you witch-hunters, he's in the game and enjoying great respect for his builds by many, myself included. Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate. As for shovels, ropes, whatever, saying that you "feel like" pressing "release" doesn't mean that you are doing it. In fact, I wouldn't give any of you smug self-satisfied types the pleasure! Could you all get a life? At least a second life? Sensual Casanova Spoiled Brat Join date: 28 Feb 2004 Posts: 4,807 01-02-2005 21:17 From: Pendari Lorentz I agree Sensual. :) It is also why I stated "right or wrong" in my post. However, I stand by my main point of that paragraph which is, if you come out in your first paragraph of a post insulting and name calling an established, well known player, you *will* have *many* people that will not listen to a single other word you have to say. It is a simple fact. Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others. _____________________ Sensual Designs & Animations Sensual Productions Teleport to Sensual Designs & Animations Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 21:42 From: someone Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others. Oh, that would be ME Sensual! *Stands back while the stones are hurled*. Would you like to hold the cloak? Actually, I didn't insult her in the first paragraph, she insulted me in the first paragraph of her in-world comments, the record easily shows that. Oh, unless you call saying that she fabricated or misrepresented the story "insulting" -- but then she left that bit out and some other bits. I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Lordfly Digeridoo Prim Orchestrator Join date: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 3,628 01-02-2005 22:34 From: Prokofy Neva You still don't get it. You're confuosing negrating as a way of criticizing and motivating a player who has made a big bad ugly obstructive laggy build with negrating wildly just when you feel like it, on a whim, such as to lash out at newbies or creative people. Why do that? I'm not suggesting athat at all. What's the difference? One man's ugly build is another man's castle. Literally. A neg rate is a completely arbitrary thing; it doesn't matter if it's given out for a bad day or a bad build. It's simply there, forever in most cases. From: someone And I'm not imposing my taste or general sense of Western-world aesthetics on anyone. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that many people suffer from and many people agree about it. I'm for casting around to see where that area of agreement lies. They key word here is many. Not all. Not even a majority. If you took a non-biased poll, you would find that the majority of players don't give a crap about aesthetics or good building sense. This is why so many clubs are built as hollow black cubes. You are imposing your taste and general sense of aesthetics by neg-rating someone. Like it or not, a neg rating is a BAd Thing for most people. It's the same thing as a slap in the face in RL. From: someone We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land. But I could round up 100 newbies that either a) don't care about King Kong or anything else outside their kitchen window, or b) actually enjoy King Kong. What's your point? By the by, what does club-going have to do with king kong, your sim, or pahoa's land? There isn't a club in 3 sims either direction. From: someone Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would. Anyone except the builder. And his friends. And folks that use the building on a daily basis. From: someone Maxx Monde is among SL's best architects. I'm glad he ventured out into that thin ice of trying to indicate some standards -- based on RL aesthetics if nothing else -- for what constitutes "good". I'm not sure what he did, but I'm glad he tried. What I'm suggesting is actually different -- negrating in extreme circumstances of really bad builds. But I shouldn't have to keep characterizing it and qualifying it just to please you and all the other nervouse nellies. I'll just do it, and post it. And leave it at that. Argh. You have to DEFINE BAD. But you CANT in a diverse community. Bad: "I don't like it" "Well, I do" "well, I don't" ...etc. For some God-forsaken reason I'm seen as a good architect in this community, and yet, SOMEHOW, there are others who feel quite the opposite. Who am I to tell them that their aesthetic sense is wrong? Who am I to turn my prims on some unhappy person that doesn't like my frame-based construction method? Who the hell cares? From: someone He certainly wasn't "ridden out on a rail" by you witch-hunters, he's in the game and enjoying great respect for his builds by many, myself included. He's jaded, he's cynical, he doesn't like doing builds for people because people don't like opinions. I'd say as a community we broke him of any spirit he had instead of listening to him. From: someone Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate. And yet you advocate neg rating parties for buildings you don't like? Pfft. What's the cutoff for a newbie that you won't destroy their possibly fragile ego with a dozen negative rates? From: someone Could you all get a life? At least a second life? And for fuck's sake, enough with the generalized ad-hominem attacks. You're digging yourself a hole by accusing all the "oldbies" (myself included, imagine that) for being a cliquey, self-important hodgepodge of assumed royalty. It's not helping your position. LF _____________________ ---- http://www.lordfly.com/ http://www.twitter.com/lordfly http://www.plurk.com/lordfly Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 23:08 From: someone From: Lordfly Digeridoo What's the difference? One man's ugly build is another man's castle. Literally. A neg rate is a completely arbitrary thing; it doesn't matter if it's given out for a bad day or a bad build. It's simply there, forever in most cases. True enough. But I do think we can find a few examples of general consensus on what constitutes a big, bad, obstructive, laggy build. Why should they remain forever? In fact they often move when you point out that they are problematic, but few people bother -- they are so intimidated! From: someone They key word here is many. Not all. Not even a majority. If you took a non-biased poll, you would find that the majority of players don't give a crap about aesthetics or good building sense. This is why so many clubs are built as hollow black cubes. Just because most people don't care or it's the general norm doesn't mean you can't try. I do believe that reason is common to all men and women. And it is possible to appeal to people's innate sense of beauty, regardless of their cultures. From: someone You are imposing your taste and general sense of aesthetics by neg-rating someone. Like it or not, a neg rating is a BAd Thing for most people. It's the same thing as a slap in the face in RL. Apparently it became that in this game because of the mindset of the original players and what they established through practice. But why should I or others be stuck with that? A negrate is a good way to start a conversation that someone will take seriously when they've ignored everything else. From: someone But I could round up 100 newbies that either a) don't care about King Kong or anything else outside their kitchen window, or b) actually enjoy King Kong. What's your point? I actually think that most people even who enjoy King Kong don't want to look at him from their porch on their expensive home and land. Raise your hand everybody who plans to buy King Kong out of the bay and put him out on their front lawn. From: someone By the by, what does club-going have to do with king kong, your sim, or pahoa's land? There isn't a club in 3 sims either direction. Nothing. We're talking about the general issue of big bad ugly builds. From: someone Argh. You have to DEFINE BAD. But you CANT in a diverse community. Bad: "I don't like it" "Well, I do" "well, I don't" Raise your hand everybody who wants King Kong in their front yard 24/7 NOW and is going out to buy him. ...etc. From: someone For some God-forsaken reason I'm seen as a good architect in this community, and yet, SOMEHOW, there are others who feel quite the opposite. Who am I to tell them that their aesthetic sense is wrong? Who am I to turn my prims on some unhappy person that doesn't like my frame-based construction method? Who the hell cares? Well I care, and you are one of the best. Not everyone finds it to their taste. But liking your type of architecture or not is not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about taste, which is arbitrary and subjective. I'm talking about big bad ugly builds that obstruct that everyone can agree on. Lordfly, when Blue Burke put a giant, glowing, yellow ugly square many feet high out in Allston, believe me, you didn't have to go to architecture school to get a real quick consensus from all the business and land owners for miles that this was FUCKING UGLY. It turned everything for many miles piss-yellow. Now come on, we can't call this an eyesore, contact the owner and say "Er...what are you doing with this? It's turning everything yellow. Could you at least turn it off? Better yet, remove it?" It's this constant abstracting and diversion into the "one-man's-castle" rhetoric that prevents simple, swift, common-sense action on a thing like the big yellow box. Turns out it was "just a test". Whatever. From: someone He's jaded, he's cynical, he doesn't like doing builds for people because people don't like opinions. I'd say as a community we broke him of any spirit he had instead of listening to him. Well I admire Maxx's work quite a bit. I know he doesn't deign to do builds for anyone for love nor money. He is cynical, but he has reason to be. And frankly, I find that a really chilling statement "as a community we broke him of any spirit". What a gory process! What kind of community does THAT, a community of cannibals? Why would you have to mob him because he showed some spirit and some judgement? I don't know the issues at stake or what he judged about, but I can guarantee you that what I'm talking about is actually far less grand. I'm generally talking about big bad ugly yellow or black boxes that hinder everyone else's land. From: someone And yet you advocate neg rating parties for buildings you don't like? Pfft. What's the cutoff for a newbie that you won't destroy their possibly fragile ego with a dozen negative rates? I know it's hard to read through all these long threads. So let me say it again. I don't advocate negrating parties for easily-wilted newbies. There'd be no sense. I'm talking about big ugly builds that obstruct, that block access, that devalue, that lag a sim. I think there's every reason to take action on such things. Negrate wouldn't be the first action, as I wrote earlier, but the last. But an effective one that we should be willing to use. It's not about "buildings I don't like". I can see that I'm simply going to have to round up examples and then you'll see. From: someone And for fuck's sake, enough with the generalized ad-hominem attacks. You're digging yourself a hole by accusing all the "oldbies" (myself included, imagine that) for being a cliquey, self-important hodgepodge of assumed royalty. It's not helping your position. Well thanks for that comment, I will try to avoid "generalized attacks". Lordfly, I was blasted with a completely unfair ad-hominent attack from the get-go about my motivations and intentions. It was absurd. So I push back. People really have had a free ride for a long time never getting push-backs when they act so arrogantly and so smugly. Frankly, there *is* a core of self-important assumed royalty, you can see it yourself. I don't fear "not helping my position" because it can stand or fall on its own without having to suck up to the right people. Really, it's a small-town atmosphere of status quo that will start to break up as any more people come in the game. Just scroll through this thread and look at all the hectoring, lecturing, know-it-all posts from people telling me "look out for your own good". And look at your very phraseology about running Maxx out on a rail. I advocate a much milder thing -- talking publicly about big bad ugly builds, and negrating the builder if he doesn't respond. Whereas you're talking about running people out on rails, ostracizing them for the duration. Why? Everybody here is lecturing me about "tolerance". Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-02-2005 23:20 The bottom line (for me) is this; if you are not being directly affected, i.e, reduced sim performance, griefing, etc., then it's really not your place to protest or question (other than internally or amongst confidants) what others choose to do with their land. I have been dismayed MANY times over what my neighbors build (I have lived in many different sims), as sometimes they seem to not consider the impact of building huge boxes that butt up against the property line or the like. I simply either move, or wait them out, usually the latter. I have found this to be the most effective method as its seems those who build big boxes and the like are either; a) new and learning, b) impatient, and tend to move out of the area soon, or c) just simply untalented at building. The trend I have seen with the last type is that they get bored and either leave the area or leave SL all together. Waiting folks out has proven VERY effective for me where I currently reside. If you feel you simply cannot abide the tastes of your neighbors, and feel that you must speak to them about it, try to be civil, or it will usually end up like this situation has. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-02-2005 23:37 From: someone Waiting folks out has proven VERY effective for me where I currently reside. If you feel you simply cannot abide the tastes of your neighbors, and feel that you must speak to them about it, try to be civil, or it will usually end up like this situation has. Thank you, that's very good advice. And I think you are right that it is possible to wait out things. Your comment is right on target because it makes sense, draws on common sense and actual experience, and avoids the hectoring tone of so many of the posts here. Thank you. And waiting out is exactly what I'm doing now. But some things don't go away. Case in point: this huge terraformed mountatin that sat there in Ross without anything on it. Ingrid brought it to Blue's attention -- repeatedly -- he did nothing. I started a thread here about some other big thing of his in Clunn -- and Ingrid mentioned it again in the thread, God bless her. And Blue came on and said, oh, sorry, I had forgotten, I'll fix it. That's an example of what I'm talking about. Mention things. If it doesn't work, raise it in the forums -- that's obviously Pahoa's method that started this flame. And then failing everything, negrate. That often gets attention where lesser methods failed. Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-03-2005 01:02 I'm no Fay Ray, or Jessica Lange for that matter, but I do agree Kong is greatly misunderstood ;) _____________________ Anshe Chung Business Girl Join date: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 1,615 01-03-2005 03:21 I think it is common consensus on this forum that every normal SL resident can do with land what he/she want. This include banning from land whomever you want and building on land whatever you want. Of course once you own more than three sims worth of land you automatically loose this fundamental right and it is cool for people neg rate and flame you if you don't terraform and build on your land to their specification. You should also know that if you are land baron and ban griefer from your land this griefer will instantly be promote to revolutionary hero ;-) _____________________ ANSHECHUNG.COM: Buy land - Sell land - Rent land - Sell sim - Rent store - Earn L$ - Buy L$ - Sell L$ SLEXCHANGE.COM: Come join us on Second Life's most popular website for shopping addicts. Click, buy and smile :-) Selador Cellardoor Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,082 01-03-2005 04:46 Prokofy, <> That silly statement alone discredits much of what you have said here. I have noticed in recent months a tendency to try to turn sl into a carbon copy of the real world. This has been manifested by a rejection of anything that does not fit into a 'naturalistic' landscape. While I can see the virtue of having open waterways and areas of 'natural' beauty, one of the delights of second life used to be the way you would come across the surreal, the anomalous or the quirky in the course of your travels. Certainly, many people who have come here with the idea of making money from real estate seem to want to turn the world into an estate agent's brochure. In real life I am involved with planning - zoning I believe the Americans call it. We are a small and overcrowded island - not all that dissimilar from second life! - and one of the fundamental principles of our planning laws is that you do not have a right to a view. It doesn't matter if you overlook a lovely forest and lake, if someone puts up a building which conforms to all the other planning requirements and replaces your view with that of a brick wall, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. The same would seem to apply to second life. I believe you mentioned in a previous posting that things only last a short time in second life. I remember my dismay when someone built something at the end of my landing stage, blocking my view of the waterway and replacing it with a multi-storey blank wall covered with a zebra-stripe texture. It was unpleasant for a while, but then it went and was replaced by something much better. Had it not, I always had the option of moving myself if I wanted to go down that route. Views are ephemeral; relationships are not. Personally I don't believe it's worth sacrificing one for the other. Edited for typo _____________________ Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-03-2005 06:12 From: someone From: Selador Cellardoor Prokofy, <> That silly statement alone discredits much of what you have said here. Weedy told me to press "release" or "delete" and the community would be grateful. I think that's the attitude that new players have to struggle against. I think it's helpful to characterize what they do accurately. The "suicide" is of course of the pixelated variety. From: someone I have noticed in recent months a tendency to try to turn sl into a carbon copy of the real world. This has been manifested by a rejection of anything that does not fit into a 'naturalistic' landscape. ] You've summed up very eloquently here what I was trying to say a few posts back. Implicit in your statement is a condemnation of those who are so low-brow or middle-brow or middle-class or bourgeois enough to want that carbon copy. Yet...why do you think you've noticed this trend? Because new people are coming into the game -- from TSO, UO, RL, whatever. *And this is what they want.* Some land barons and some group project leaders give them what they want, and this has the old technocratic and creative intelligentsia elite with their knickers in a twist. In fact, there's a mixture of old-guard beta-test-love-fest tekkies/designers and brand-new "carpon copy real-lifers" who want that "naturalistic" device. Of course as Juro has pointed out, um, what's exactly natural about Eric Linden's interpretation of northwestern American rocky waterfront? I personally have preferred the more whimsical exotic landscapes where all kinds of big trees and odd creatures appear for roaming around in. Yes, that might sound like a contradiction to what I've posted about King Kong, but that's because subtlety can often be lost here. It's merely when I *assumed the role of developer* -- yes, it's only a role, in a game -- that I began to see through the eyes of those "cc real-lifers" and understand that they valued a King-Kong-free landscape -- as one brave one indicated -- and that a good business would try to give it to them. If Philip Linden wants a million people to come through the doors, surely he didn't mean them all to be the technocrats nursed in the arms of King Kong. When you have a million people, you have Wal-Mart shoppers and people who take the RV to Yellowstone. Hey, in fact we already have that in SL! These people are paying customers and can't be castigated for their "rejectionist" attitude. It will be their game, too. Everybody is happy to loudly proclaim the freedom of builds on one's land -- except when it's real-life carbon-copies? These are conflicts that must be managed, not wished away. From: someone While I can see the virtue of having open waterways and areas of 'natural' beauty, one of the delights of second life used to be the way you would come across the surreal, the anomalous or the quirky in the course of your travels. Yes, it was delightful to be able not to think of valuable waterfront property, just swimming and flying around through the landscape whatever it turned up, turning away from the stupid and ugly, flying toward the beautiful. But I personally paled on that after a lot of slow-rezzing laggy malls and boxy clubs and began to wonder if something else was possible, at least for residence, so I tried these experiments. From: someone Certainly, many people who have come here with the idea of making money from real estate seem to want to turn the world into an estate agent's brochure. I personally have absolutely no illusions about this. I don't think you *can* make money in virtual estate (it's not real) because the risks and losses are just too great. There's no way to calculate things like the teleporter to your sim being broken for 3 days or the entire game being down just when ppl were getting ready to buy a house. Those few who have made some money on it have done it through mass of land, volume of sales, and high turnover. It's precisely because of the inability to protect view investments, the tier structure, and the risks in the game mechanics, that land barons are driven to mass produce, with predictable effects. From: someone In real life I am involved with planning - zoning I believe the Americans call it. We are a small and overcrowded island - not all that dissimilar from second life! - and one of the fundamental principles of our planning laws is that you do not have a right to a view. It doesn't matter if you overlook a lovely forest and lake, if someone puts up a building which conforms to all the other planning requirements and replaces your view with that of a brick wall, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Well, this is why many new and old Americans fled your repressive shores of Europe or Asia : ) People do fight to protect their views in America. I can think of the ferocious lawsuits over the Trump Tower in New York City. Projects become politics and legislators get involved in approving or disapproving. Consumers boycott slumlords and other types of builders they loathe. Neighbourhood groups fight back. There is a robust civil society that fights for that view and often gets it. There's an awful lot you can do about a tower going up putting your view into shadows -- from letter-writing to demonstrations to city council intervention. It's precisely that kind of fighting spirit that is missing from SL, where many people roll over and take the ugly pancaking of a beautiful island lying down. From: someone The same would seem to apply to second life. I believe you mentioned in a previous posting that things only last a short time in second life. I remember my dismay when someone built something at the end of my landing stage, blocking my view of the waterway and replacing it with a multi-storey blank wall covered with a zebra-stripe texture. It was unpleasant for a while, but then it went and was replaced by something much better. Had it not, I always had the option of moving myself if I wanted to go down that route. Yes, sadly, this is the engine of the game -- and the Lindens are able to justify their rolling out of new sims constantly precisely because of the need for so many people to move away from ugly builds. From: someone Views are ephemeral; relationships are not. Personally I don't believe it's worth sacrificing one for the other. It's truer than you know : ( Selador Cellardoor Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,082 01-03-2005 06:56 Prokofy, <> My apologies; I thought you were responding to the 'rope and shovel' statement. _____________________ Weedy Herbst Too many parameters Join date: 5 Aug 2004 Posts: 2,255 01-03-2005 07:29 From: Prokofy Neva Yesterday I felt like retiring from the forums, and even pressing "release" on my land. I didn't suggest it, you did. I merely agreed. _____________________ Ardith Mifflin Mecha Fiend Join date: 5 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,416 01-03-2005 07:56 For every critical comment you've made about someone's build, there are a dozen others criticizing your own build. This is the problem with subjectivity and aesthetics. What you think is visually appealing may not (and in fact, does not) appeal to everyone else. So before you decide to impose your misguided sense of aesthetics on the world as a whole, I suggest you take a step back and ask yourself if you might not be the target of derision. Even the best build I've seen in your project has a very mundane, banal flavor to it. It's like chocolate cake: everyone loves the first bite, because it's a great comfort food. But people quickly grow tired of the flavor when consumed in excess. A more proper analogy might be to the archetypal white picket fences of suburban communities here in America. They absolutely stifle creativity and innovation, and instead favor conformity and banality. Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-03-2005 08:05 Selador, there was no need to apologize to him. Don't let him confuse you with his circular rhetoric. Selador I know we have had our differences in the past however, for the most part you can attest that I am either cynical/truthful and at times bitter in my commentary yet none borders on the side of surealism or inane. I Opted to stay out of this one for the most part as Crim and Pahoa are Adults and can handle themselves. My ISP was down all day yesterday so I couldnt post nor even get in Second Life. But here I am today at work of course. So with that said I want to make one thing PERFECTLY CLEAR!! but first let me post what I am replying too. From: someone I am sorry that Pahoa has had to experience any kind of grief, given the vicissitudes of moving from Lusk and having to set up shop in a new place. Pahoa's, Crimson's and My choice to leave Lusk was not out of Necessity or distaste for our neighbor's in fact we lived their peacefully for over a year. Our choice for moving really isn't the communitys need to know as it was our private decision carried forth in private VOICE conversations. So, Prokofy on that point never assume anything as the more you do the more you make yourself look like an ass. But honestly I don't even have to really say that as your doing such a wonderful job of choking on your own words N-I-C-E.... Now in retort about the reporting a harrasment charge, needless to say you hung yourself on that a few post back mentioning emails and needless IM's. Repetitive inquiry's is constituted as harrasment when it is unwanted kinda like sexual harrasment if someone says no they mean it. Saying I dont know is the same principle. So, what part of she didnt know did you not understand the didnt or the know. In addtion as Crim stated they<< Being the statues>> are his. However, the dragon in the woods is mine. But what piqued my curiosity was this statment. From: someone You people have been at this far, far too long with no push-back. Why don't YOU try a little respect and stop lording it over the place? First off who is "you people"? and push-back I have news for you I have been pushed back by some of the best. You Mr. TSO Refugee are based on your own contridiction of words are mearly a small fry in a big sea of sharks better thank god Im a Wolf. If I am wrong I apologise however, in this case considering your circular banter you will hear NO apologies from this old Avatar. Second off give some respect and you might get it. Your arrogance and I am better than any of you attitude certainly has turned me into a vehement oppositionist against you. To even presume for one instance that Neg ratings and incessant inquirys will get you to have your way is appauling to say the least. And a sincere lack of respect towards anyone if you truly believe that will attain you what you wish. I have far to greater number of friends and enemys in second life all of which are highly intelegent and sound in thier decisions on things. Mostly friends have spoken here and even one that was at a point in time bordering on the other. But the point is Prokofy, it doesnt matter who you are as Korg said "Tollerance" has little to do with this world. A friend told me you can only make yourself happy first which in essence goes back to what Korg said. But I assure you of this Prokofy if you don't quit talking in circles trying to cover your ass at every turn and accept your actions as a human being you will never get respect as you so eloquently stated. So Prokofy take this as a lesson #1 Dont bug people about their land as its thiers and as long as they follow the TOS they can do as they wish. #2 Your issues with your customers is your problem Not mine, nor Pahoa's nor Crims nor anyone in Second Life's for that matter. #3 If you Sell land, be prepared if you sell alot of it, your gonna be labled a Land Barron Period!!..get over it. #4 If you think Neg rating are going to get someones attention you are sadly mistaken as some of us wear our negs like a badge of Honor or Courage in the face of adversity. Right now your our adversity with your incessant banter. So suck up your pride pick up your lip and what ever else your stepping on with golf shoes and get over it. You were wrong your point wasnt made and you have no rights over anyone else unless they are on YOUR land. Deal with it and life will get much much better for you. Sincerely, Shadow Weaver. PS Yes I am arrogant, Yes, I am Cynical, Yes, I am rude beyond remorse when confronted. But, you either accept me as such or move on in avoidance as I will not change. _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Alicia Eldritch the greatest newbie ever. Join date: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 267 America is hardly a free country these days. 01-03-2005 08:10 From: Prokofy Neva Well, this is why many new and old Americans fled your repressive shores of Europe or Asia : ) People do fight to protect their views in America. I can think of the ferocious lawsuits over the Trump Tower in New York City. Projects become politics and legislators get involved in approving or disapproving. Consumers boycott slumlords and other types of builders they loathe. Neighbourhood groups fight back. There is a robust civil society that fights for that view and often gets it. (emphasis mine) I happen to think that this is precisely what is wrong with America these days. It is a corporate socialism, not a free market. Try to start an unlicensed business and see what I mean. In this kind of quasi-market socialism, whomever is popular or connected gets their way all the time. Here in SL, fuck that. I can build a giant tower of poop on my land, and no one can stop me. If people wanted to neg rate me for that or buy all the land around me and put up insulting signs, that would be their business too. In the end, informal means would sort it all out, and it wouldn't have to come down to anything else. It's the micro-tyrannies that put the boot down the hardest, because they hit us everyday. And in fact, are so subtle that we don't often see how we are being harmed. One of the advantages of SL is that we are starting from a quasi-anarchy, so we can see each step towards oppression as it comes. It's funny that you mention Ulrika before, Prokofy, because what you are advocating in this quote is a smaller, more insidious form of what she does. She's in a way more honest about it, because she doesn't pretend to be a free market advocate. That said, since neither of you are advocating linden interference, nor griefing tactics, (if I remember correctly) I can't really side one way or the other on the main issue. If your customers want to leave, Prokofy, that's between you and them. If you want to convince Pahoa to change her build, good luck. If you start harassing her, or she you, then it has crossed the line into TOS violation and griefing. I certainly don't think there should be any sort of regulation of how people build on their own land. EVER. That said, perhaps one day when there is a proper system of contract verification, people could sell land with restrictive covenants. In that case, it's a different story. _____________________ anyone have a good way to visualize 3d vector fields and surfaces? LSD? "Yeah, there's nothing like literal thirst to put metaphorical thirst into perspective" - Get Your War On "The political leader loves what you could become. It is only you he hates." - Allan Thornton Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-03-2005 08:25 Alicia I appreciate your sentiment in your post. However just one thing I would like to point out. ((Alicia,I'm not being an ass to you in this statment so please dont take it as such as I am just pulling something out of context. Just wanted that clear first.)) From: someone That said, perhaps one day when there is a proper system of contract verification, people could sell land with restrictive covenants. In that case, it's a different story. True it would be a different story as it would no longer be Second Life but Abandoned Life. Second Life would be abandoned very quickly if a master seller could restrict covenents on the land if that happend then woe is the world as the Kill Land Barron Fests would begin. Shadow _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Alicia Eldritch the greatest newbie ever. Join date: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 267 01-03-2005 08:37 Hmm... perhaps. Never thought of it that way. Well, anyway, some sort of contract verification would probably help for business purposes in general. _____________________ anyone have a good way to visualize 3d vector fields and surfaces? LSD? "Yeah, there's nothing like literal thirst to put metaphorical thirst into perspective" - Get Your War On "The political leader loves what you could become. It is only you he hates." - Allan Thornton katykiwi Moonflower Esquirette Join date: 5 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,489 01-03-2005 09:18 From: Selador Cellardoor and one of the fundamental principles of our planning laws is that you do not have a right to a view. As a matter of fact property laws in the United States are based upon this old and well established standard from English Common Law...there is no property right to a view! (even when you pay a premium to get a lot with a view or open space, it's buyer beware!) Ingrid Ingersoll Archived Join date: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 4,601 01-03-2005 10:00 Prokofy, have you considered buying a private island sim? Yes, it's expensive, but in the long run, it might save you a lot of anxiety that you seem to be having about your neighbours. _____________________ http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html Schwanson Schlegel SL's Tokin' Villain Join date: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 2,721 01-03-2005 10:07 From: Ingrid Ingersoll Prokofy, have you considered buying a private island sim? Yes, it's expensive, but in the long run, it might save you a lot of anxiety that you seem to be having about your neighbours. Didn't King Kong live on an island? duh. :p _____________________ Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-03-2005 10:43 Prokofy, I just want to add that I have absolutely nothing against you personally. You present strong viewpoints and that's what you're getting back. It's as simple as that. You couch a lot of your arguments in the language of the opressed... speaking about an existing world order and a kind of oldbie clique, and "you people". In truth, SL has less of that kind of thing than any other MMO in existence. It's one of the things I love the most about Second Life... that the community is so non-judgemental, welcoming, and friendly. SL would stop being that way if we were all of the same mindset as you are. If neg rates were used as a kind of social pressure to elicit conformity we would end up with an adversarial world full of "us vs them" conflicts at every turn. That's what I find so ironic about your point of view. You imply that you are somehow under the thumb of other people's standards, and yet if you had your way, other people would be under the thumb of yours. What makes SL great is creative freedom and a community that mostly cheers on the creative endeavors of others instead of seeking to tear them down. The latter certainly happens, but the former is by far the more prevalent attitude. You've chosen to have an adversarial relationship with the community at large. It wasn't imposed on you. Lordfly is absolutely right in saying that the most effective strategy for creating the kind of environment around your land that you want is patience. It took me over a year to slowly acquire more and more land around my initial small plot. I've owned the same land since my first week in SL almost two years ago. I've had things built next to me that I wished weren't there like a 100 meter tower four feet off the end of my dock, and a dragrace track with cars that revved their engines annoyingly 24/7, but it's far more important to me to be a good neighbor by accepting people's right to do as they please with their land. I'd rather have a good personal relationship with my neighbors than have adversarial relationships. As I've slowly bought up the land around me I've returned it to nature and protected the waterways around me because I happen to like that sort of thing. I don't ever expect my neighbors to match my aesthetic unless that's what they want to do. If you set yourself up with the pressure of some kind of "duty" to make the world bend to your tastes you're going to alienate yourself and you won't enjoy your time in SL as much as you could. I've always thought that some of the most beautiful builds in the world are the ones built by people without any appreciable skill... they might be ugly, inefficient, gaudy, or completely inept... but they're things that the builders put a lot of love and effort into and they're proud of what they've done. I'd rather pat them on the back and offer words of encouragement than belittle them. We both walk away feeling good about ourselves. As for King Kong, I'd have no problem having him as a neighbor. I had Shadow's brilliant (and huge) "Big Red" dragon as a neighbor for quite a long time. It was a bit incongruous next to my naturalistic/modern build. Who cares? I loved it. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 11:15 From: Prokofy Neva In your last two posts you never talked about the elephant in the living room: King Kong. He's big, he's kitsch, and well....he's BIG. Could we hear some comments from others in the area about their feelings about King Kong? King Kong is wonferful. Starax is a very talented artist. You are so lucky to have such great work nearby, instead of spinning neon cubes. Count your blessings. From: someone All landowners have that right, and a landowner who is commissioning buildings or selling land has the right to ask on behalf of his customers what to expect nearby -- merely what to expect! -- so that buyers can plan accordingly. It shouldn't have to cramp your style to answer "yes, there's a big building planned" or "we don't know but it's likely just these animals." You must be new to SL. Do you realize how often builds and ownership of land changes? The builds near my home and other properties have changed numerous times. All you can do, short of buying a private island, is to be thankful for the good builds, and ride out the bad. You have no rights as far as "what to expect" since there really is no way to know beyond a very short term time. You do your customers a disservice if you tell them to expect anything other than what is there at the moment you're talking to them. Things change in SL, and very often. Of course you have the right to ask politely, but certainly no right to continue to pry if a definite answer isn't forthcoming. And your neighbor certainly has the right to not answer any of your questions. From: someone And while you may believe you have absolute freedom in this game when you buy land, the person next to you who bought land thinks they have freedom, too, and their freedom is encroached by your unbelievable resistance to merely talking over your plans so that others may adjust accordingly. Let me point out again -- that was ALL that was asked of you! No one asked you to remove anything -- they merely asked to be INFORMED so they could MOVE. Once again you talk as if it's your right to know what is going to be built next to you. It isn't. Deal with it. Do you want a yearly calendar of all builds planned for the area? Good luck on that. From: someone Actually, SL's old player base reminds me quite a bit of a commune -- subsidized, self-referential and hostile to newcomers. That's quite a generalization. Do you know all of SL's older players?? Cause I know alot of them and most of them are very helpful, generous and kind to newbs. Of course, most don't care for hostile players or idiots (older and newer), but the same can be said for alot of newer players as well. From: someone Of course not. You have to start somewhere. I view myself as a pioneer trying to push against the tide of helplessness and anger I see in this game over the utter inability to do anything about the ugly build next door. The Lindens aren't going to zone. And players can't really enforce zoning without constant disputes and Linden intervention. So I think there have to be ways of developing alternatives. One of them is to buy a sim -- and even the views on to the next sims -- and ask people to respect the idea of "residential". Might think about a private island. Then you don't have another persons builds within eye sight.Or..build a nice wall of trees, like a wind break, or perhaps a prim mountain with a lovely waterfall... _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 11:31 From: someone strong viewpoints.... the language of the opressed... speaking about an existing world order and a kind of oldbie clique......... SL has less of that kind of thing than any other MMO in existence. ...the community is so non-judgemental, welcoming, and friendly. ...yet if you had your way, other people would be under the thumb of yours. What makes SL great is creative freedom and a community that mostly cheers on the creative endeavors of others instead of seeking to tear them down. ....You've chosen to have an adversarial relationship with the community at large. .... it's far more important to me to be a good neighbor by accepting people's right to do as they please with their land. I'd rather have a good personal relationship with my neighbors than have adversarial relationships. ...Who cares? I loved it. I quote the above solely as a means of illustrating the following point ---- not as a means of denigrating or taking on Chip or anyone else. I agree with Prokofy that there is an established, fairly cliquish, and observably insular "oldbie network" with a measurable bias toward traditonal liberal thought/philosophies. The above quote provides quite a bit of evidence of the lack of self-awareness or blindered view that that group exercises. Having a few alts here, you probably have no clue that I have been on the fringes of a few of the sub-groups that most consider "oldbies". So, it's interesting to see the self-righteous defense of that larger group as a whole... It's astounding the level of the lack of self-awareness evident by some within that community. Whoa now you say.... Korg is just sounding off, you say. Of course he would say that... He's an @#[email protected]#$. Well, Believe it or not... at least one of my alts could be beside you right now and you wouldn't have a clue. (Remote control access to/of another computer is a wonderful thing if you know how to use it properly.) But that's beside the point. Now, not everyone in the "oldbie" group is friends or thinks alike - no one would expect that to be so. Even close friends have their differences of opinions on issues and third parties. But the fact that certain in-groups routinely jump in to close ranks around one another against even a sniff of a perceived threat/insult against one of their own is not only noticeable to those outside the group, it IS something that does concern most of SL. Oldbie status is not something I personally revere and rarely acknowledge - whether here or elsewhere. It only means one registrered somewhere before someone else. Being an oldbie entitle no one to anything - not respect, not special treatment, and certainly not blind adherence to a particular point of view held (even loosely) in common within the group. As for this thread.... go back and reread it. It's a good example of in-group/out-group confrontation. More than he said, she said, this is easily viewable as something that has gotten blown out of its initial proportions as a result of "growth" - in world size, population and perspective. To some extent, the insular little "creative" enclave certain oldbies believe is what this is all about is threatened by that growth... and they are trying to defend and prolong that perspective. To another extent, the commercialism perspective is clashing with the "oldbies"/creative one. Of course there will be friction between those two antithetical perspectives. Prokofy, you obviously knew you would be slammed as soon as you responded. Good for you for having the nads to stand up and say something. Right or wrong, I appreciate people with the balls to take on any established group. As for those apparently aligned against Prokofy, what is really funny to me is hearing certain "artists" deny their interest in the commercial perspective while simultaneously having some of the largest commercial enterprises in SL. I have literally been rolling on the floor laughing at the leaps of rhetoric and logic a number of posters have made. Curmudgeon that I am, it is hard to laugh like this. Please, take pity on me... Siggy Romulus DILLIGAF Join date: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 5,711 The Passion of the Kong! 01-03-2005 11:53 And lo did the Kong fall from the giant tower in Davenport for our sins, only to rise once more from the waters! Bickety bang folks - when ya gonna start lookin round and seeing the signs... Discordianism - tellin ya it's here to stay... Hail Eris (and pass the hotdog buns!) Siggy. _____________________ The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 12:33 From: Korg Stygian I quote the above solely as a means of illustrating the following point ---- not as a means of denigrating or taking on Chip or anyone else. I agree with Prokofy that there is an established, fairly cliquish, and observably insular "oldbie network" with a measurable bias toward traditonal liberal thought/philosophies. The above quote provides quite a bit of evidence of the lack of self-awareness or blindered view that that group exercises. Having a few alts here, you probably have no clue that I have been on the fringes of a few of the sub-groups that most consider "oldbies". So, it's interesting to see the self-righteous defense of that larger group as a whole... It's astounding the level of the lack of self-awareness evident by some within that community. Whoa now you say.... Korg is just sounding off, you say. Of course he would say that... He's an @#[email protected]#$. Well, Believe it or not... at least one of my alts could be beside you right now and you wouldn't have a clue. (Remote control access to/of another computer is a wonderful thing if you know how to use it properly.) But that's beside the point. Now, not everyone in the "oldbie" group is friends or thinks alike - no one would expect that to be so. Even close friends have their differences of opinions on issues and third parties. But the fact that certain in-groups routinely jump in to close ranks around one another against even a sniff of a perceived threat/insult against one of their own is not only noticeable to those outside the group, it IS something that does concern most of SL. Oldbie status is not something I personally revere and rarely acknowledge - whether here or elsewhere. It only means one registrered somewhere before someone else. Being an oldbie entitle no one to anything - not respect, not special treatment, and certainly not blind adherence to a particular point of view held (even loosely) in common within the group. So you are saying that people that have been here a long time, and have gotten to know each other..umm..know each other? Gee..you da Sherlock! Have you also noticed that a few old timers dispise each other?? As for closing ranks, the exact same thing can be said for groups of newer SL firends, or anyone loyal or of the same opinion. If there were others like you Korg (please..no..), and they were friends of yours, and you shared alot of common views, would you stay out of any threads where one was defending him/herself? Or offering an opinion? I very much doubt it. So yes, groups of friends are..well..friends. People that share values and ideals are..umm..in agreement often. And folks that have been around each other longer, tend to know each other better. Not all that hard to figure out eh? But nice try on the sowing seeds of suspicion thing. The "I have alts sneaking around" part was particularly good. Do you work for the CIA too? :p _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Shadow Weaver Ancient Join date: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,808 01-03-2005 12:39 David I opted to Bite my tongue on that one cause it was Korg. oh well Cie Les Vie _____________________ Everyone here is an adult. This ain't DisneyLand, and Mickey Mouse isn't going to swat you with a stick if you say "holy crapola." New Worlds new Adventures Formerly known as Jade Wolf my business name has now changed to Dragon Shadow. Im me in world for Locations of my apparrel Online Authorized Trademark Licensed Apparel http://www.cafepress.com/slvisions OR Visit The Website @ www.slvisions.com Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 12:42 From: David Valentino So you are saying that people that have been here a long time, and have gotten to know each other..umm..know each other? Gee..you da Sherlock! Have you also noticed that a few old timers dispise each other?? As for closing ranks, the exact same thing can be said for groups of newer SL firends, or anyone loyal or of the same opinion. If there were others like you Korg (please..no..), and they were friends of yours, and you shared alot of common views, would you stay out of any threads where one was defending him/herself? Or offering an opinion? I very much doubt it. So yes, groups of friends are..well..friends. People that share values and ideals are..umm..in agreement often. And folks that have been around each other longer, tend to know each other better. Not all that hard to figure out eh? But nice try on the sowing seeds of suspicion thing. The "I have alts sneaking around" part was particularly good. Do you work for the CIA too? :p Thanks David. Some of these same thoughts were bouncing around inside my head and I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I was in the Army we had different classes graduating from basic training in sequence. Each successive battery was a few weeks behind the preceding battery. Guess who we ended up mostly hanging out with when we went to the main base and assumed our regular duties? That's right, the people we graduated Basic with. What a shock. Did that mean we had some sort of "good ole boy" system in place? Nope. We still hung out with people from other Basic graduating classes at times and assisted them with their adjustment to regular duty. And of course we would defend one of our friends. It's only natural for those who aren't leading a solitary life, or some sort of martyristic crusade due to skewed perceptions or perhaps a feeling of insecurity. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit I don.t get it, and they certainly don't Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:11 From: David Valentino So you are saying that people that have been here a long time, and have gotten to know each other..umm..know each other? Gee..you da Sherlock! Have you also noticed that a few old timers dispise each other?? As for closing ranks, the exact same thing can be said for groups of newer SL firends, or anyone loyal or of the same opinion. If there were others like you Korg (please..no..), and they were friends of yours, and you shared alot of common views, would you stay out of any threads where one was defending him/herself? Or offering an opinion? I very much doubt it. So yes, groups of friends are..well..friends. People that share values and ideals are..umm..in agreement often. And folks that have been around each other longer, tend to know each other better. Not all that hard to figure out eh? But nice try on the sowing seeds of suspicion thing. The "I have alts sneaking around" part was particularly good. Do you work for the CIA too? :p Uh... you theoretically CAN read... I suggest you reread my post as you obviously missed the point... Oh wait. You merely RESTATED my point. Dude.. get a grip. As for sowing seeds of suspicion.. I didn't sow any seeds. I stated a fact. You think that what I am doing with alts is something other people are not doing? Think again. It's a virtual world... with virtual realities. What you think you know is all illusion and the people you think you know in this SL - unless you actually watch them type anything AND have met/know them in real life - are not necessarily the people you think they are. As for friends banding together --- there is getting together and there is "ganging up" to defend or attack. I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time. So.... go get some reading lessons, then some logic lessons, then return to your SL/RL whatever. Pendari Lorentz Senior Member Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 4,372 01-03-2005 13:20 From: Sensual Casanova Please tell me who does this so I can be sure to be just as ignorant to them as they are to others. Sorry Sens, I guess you can count me ignorant then. :( Right or Wrong, I seem to do this as well. Though I do not limit it to just people I know or am friends with. Hell, I know a gazzillion people in SL. I may like *most* of them, but that doesn't mean I consider them friends. Though I do respect those who are worthy of being respected. My own reasons. At any rate, yes, I too am guilty of becoming defensive from the get go when someone starts the first part of their post with with insults. Hell, even my close friends often get an earful when they do so. I feel this way mainly because I personally understand the not wanting to listen to a person if they have to result to insults the *very first thing they say* in response to a situation. I don't care if you are brand new or ancient.. And yes, even I am guilty of doing so and deserved to not be taken seriously because of it. I'll concede to that. _____________________ *hugs everyone* Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:20 From: Nolan Nash snip Brought to you by SL's own "Existential Nincompoop"... which leads one to wonder if it was from the perspective of an existentialist of just the ramblings of a nincompoop. I bet you can guess where my money is on this issue. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:30 From: Korg Stygian From: Nolan Nash snipQUOTE] Brought to you by SL's own "Existential Nincompoop"... which leads one to wonder if it was from the perspective of an existentialist of just the ramblings of a nincompoop. I bet you can guess where my money is on this issue. Dude, learn how to read ok? <---- This one is my fave btw, when someone (normally the arrogant type) is frustrated because someone else doesn't agree with them, they pull out this useless device. How utterly banal. Here, let me try: Dude, learn how to use quotes. Dude, learn how to debate. Dude, learn how to use logic. Dude, learn how to make friends instead of lurking with alts. WoW! I feel superior already! This should be published in a handbook for all insecure people to read! This message brought to you by the SL CIA. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:34 From: Korg Stygian .... I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time. Sounds like a personal problem, as you are the only one I hear lamenting this. It couldn't have anything to do with how you conduct yourself could it? _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:40 From: Nolan Nash Dude, learn how to read ok? <---- This one is my fave btw, when someone (normally the arrogant type) is frustrated because someone else doesn't agree with them, they pull out this useless device. How utterly banal. Here, let me try: Dude, learn how to use quotes. Dude, learn how to debate. Dude, learn how to use logic. Dude, learn how to make friends instead of lurking with alts. WoW! I feel superior already! This should be published in a handbook for all insecure people to read! This message brought to you by the SL CIA. ROFLMAO .. please.. you're killing me. C'mon now... you are going to make me split my sides... Take pity on an ol dman and don't make me laugh this hard. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:44 From: Korg Stygian ROFLMAO .. please.. you're killing me. C'mon now... you are going to make me split my sides... Take pity on an ol dman and don't make me laugh this hard. Laughing at examples of your own faulty dialectic is a step in the right direction. :) _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 13:47 From: Nolan Nash Laughing at examples of your own faulty dialectic is a step in the right direction. :) I was laughing at the self-described nincompoop. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 13:51 From: Korg Stygian I was laughing at the self-described nincompoop. Oh. I see, you are running out of steam, so now it's time to ride out my own tongue-in-cheek nickname for myself for all it's worth. Have fun entertaining yourself while you avoid the substance of any contrary points. :D _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Prokofy Neva Virtualtor Join date: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 3,698 01-03-2005 14:01 Nolan, you’re wise to suggest “waiting it out”. Another friend has suggested it’s better just to make good examples of architecture and put them around SL, then people can begin to understand what’s good. There’s another thread under “building” about the “lexicon of architecture” that takes up these aesthetic and form/function issues for SL, not to impose them, but to make visual experiments to see what "works" and what people like and use versus what is admired by stylists. But this thread actually isn’t about my idea or anybody’s idea of aesthetics being imposed. I'ts about how conflicts emerge and how to solve them. It’s also about large obstructive/performance-reduction/hideous type of build that anybody can agree on. I’m not sure why this is so difficult to get across. I see plenty of builds that don’t float my boat but I don’t negrate the people or even get into a conversation with them. That’s not what this is about – I’m talking about gigantism and obstructionism. To me King Kong – if he happens to be a meter away from my land, which he isn’t! – begins to border on that kind of overly aggressive viewblocker problem but even with him, I haven’t negrated his creator or owner nor have I asked them to move him or do a thing about him. The appearance of King Kong is merely another wake-up call to the Lindens that they've got to think about zoning some residential versus experimental sims or player conflicts will boom. Far from asking to take down King Kong, I’ve a) raised the broader issue of whether he’s appropriate for people seeking residences, so that some other accommodation should be found for them and b) whether the people who put him out there intend to have something equally big and menacing meters away from my property *merely so people can decide to move if they are unhappy*. Anshe is right that people who crusade against land barons style themselves as revolutionaries but they’ve all shopped in the same malls and hung out in the same clubs created by “land barons” so they are hypocrites. Ardith, it’s hardly necessary to “take a step back” to see I’m the target of derision, duh. And your comments about the “mundane, banal” flavor of the homes in my development just make me shrug. I don’t happen to agree with you nor do the people who made or who buy the homes but that’s not what this thread is really about. And the architects in this development don't need this area to be showcased, they have far more fabulous buildings in other sims where they are working and their reputation speaks for itself. If anything, as a newbie in the game and in the role of developing, there's a lot I have to learn about how you subdivide and manage a sim like this and I look forward to learning from my mistakes and rectifying them there and in new projects. Pahoa also used the tactic of slamming the builds in this development and its customers rather than understanding what was at issue – a query about her intentions so that people could move, and the larger issue about what to do about zoning. Maybe you don’t find residential housing tracts that look like RL very aesthetic or appealing, but guess what, people want it. There will be more of them wanting this than King Kong, trust me on this – or at least they’ll visit King Kong like they visit Disney World but they want to live with the picket fence. It would be irresponsible of me to start a residential development, especially one with commons, and not take that into account. I am well aware when you take action, you open yourself up to slams. I’d be interested to see what you would make if you bought a sim and put in not “mundane and banal” but your idea of what is cool. Shadow, once again, your friend Pahoa didn’t just say “no” so that it was understandable to back off and that was that. She slammed my development and my customer with unsubstantiated comments then took her frustrations public to this forum, referring to a barely-transparent “anonymous” neighbor. That *hardly* sounds like the delicate calla lily being "harassed" that you’d like to portray her as, she instead sounds like a very feisty lady able to publicly stick to her guns and probably not in need of all your tilting at windmills. The hectoring tone you’ve adopted is a good display of the self-appointed, know-it-all attitude one finds among this core group of old players referred to here, and I thank you for providing a classic illustration of it. Alicia, we could debate whether there’s corporate socialism in America in another thread, my point there was only that IRL community groups fight back and don’t simply roll over and say “noblesse obligence” and “eminent domain” when Trump or the UN or any large entity tries to put up a tower in their backyard. Once again, I’m not advocating a Nazi building commission or town council that dishes out zoning permits in SL, since I believe top-down player-based zoning would degenerate into precisely the tyranny you describe. I do think that groups of people organized spontaneously, however, might make group purchases of sims, pool their resources, especially their tier, and create some very fine communities for themselves without having to stick one person with tier. The Lindens would enable such community grassroots effort if they could find some way to zone groups of sims as residential versus business or experimental. Ingrid, earlier in the thread we already put to rest the idea that buying a private island sim is a solution. They are too buggy, they’re off the grid – go read all the other threads about island problems to see why no one in their right mind would ever buy a private island sim now and their prices are dropping. And P.S. I don’t have anxiety about neighbours LOL, and in fact King Kong is the least of my problems. It’s just an experiment, in a game, to see if you can more or less secure some views and more or less put down some examples of good residential architecture that people will actually live in. That’s it! Chip, I’m in quest of a democratic, community-wide consensus about what constitutes a big/bad/obstructionist/ugly build and probing whether it is possible to take group action when such events occur. That’s quite different than imposing my own aesthetic. I continue to believe that such a consensus can be found, although the path to it will be difficult. I do cheer on creative endeavors. I’ve spent many months organizing events that provide awards for good architecture, newbie architecture, sculpture, innovative architecture, landscaping/waterfalls, etc. It’s too bad you didn’t see any of this. You’re absolutely right that patience is the best counsel for the problem of a neighbour’s poor design choices and that’s exactly the route I’m following on builds going up that make me unhappy – let them do their thing, and see if it lasts. But I still advocate trying to find solutions to another problem, which isn’t about neighbours’ aesthetics, it’s about the big/bad/ugly build meant to grief, lag, annoy, and there I think more can be done. David, I haven’t told my customers a thing other than that it’s a residential community and that we make the best attempt we can to secure freedom from ugly and laggy builds at least on that sim. Naturally, any one of them could sell out and their lot into a big ugly glowing square. But you have to start somewhere rather than endlessly bitching and that’s exactly what I’m doing. And once again, a person asking to be informed so they can move is hardly a person imposing a “right to know” or a year-long calendar of building notices on the surrounding area so there’s no need to exaggerate. You’re right that I made too sweeping a generalization about all older players, and I thank all those who have taken time as volunteers in live help or at tutorials to help, and for all their kindnesses. I am talking about a certain kind of core group, not all and I should clarify that. Korg, I’m so glad and grateful you had the courage to express your agreement that there is indeed a fairly cliquish and observedly insular oldbie network. I don’t know if their bias is toward traditional liberalism or if their bias is to the faux-liberal, pedestrian pagan hedonism one finds in Internet games, but I do know that they are arch conservatives about letting go the hammerlock they have on SL, and they are willing to send posses out on the forums to hunt and hog-tie anyone who challenges them. You said the oldbies are threatened by the game’s growth and the clash of cultures and that’s exactly what I’ve raised in this and other threads and I am quite aware I’ll be pilloried for it. But all they are doing is killing the messenger. It’s not me who imposed a new and growing demand in SL for quiet residential space free of wacky or ugly builds and it’s not me who set the goal of widening and growing the game so many non-tekkie and not-creative, consumer types begin to come into it. Linden Labs might have been content to keep their game as an eternal small beta test – a laboratory as it’s called – for innovative design and cutting-edge experimental game technology. They could have kept all those tekkies afloat forever on their $500 LL a week and their "incubator" and dwell awards. But instead, they decided to be a game business -- a mass entertainment business. The reason they call them "massive multiplayer games" is because they are, er, massive and multiplayer, not just a few beta testers. They decided to get into the server “virtual estate” business with their land-auction approach and professed desire to increase to a million customers and serve as the WWW of games. So deal with it. I guess to contrast with TSO and other games I’ve seen like ATITD, yes, I’ve never seen such a spoiled and feted inner-core technocratic/creative intelligentsia elite anywhere in my life except perhaps for the Soviet Union LOL. I alternately marvel at the Swedish Stockholm Syndrome I see among long-time players with huge investments in time and money (they never stand up to get better service/servers/game-play mechanics) – and I grow more cynical as I see the various formal and informal reward systems that help keep alive this insular elite. I’m willing to bet that one of the major obstacles LL will face in growth is how to step over or around this hardcore elite which it has itself created. Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:04 From: Nolan Nash Oh. I see, you are running out of steam, so now it's time to ride out my own tongue-in-cheek nickname for myself for all it's worth. Have fun entertaining yourself while you avoid the substance of any contrary points. :D I made my points. You choose not to respond to THEM. As for "tongue in cheek nicknames".... umm.. have you considered mine? If not, do so now. I knew that you could. David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 14:05 From: Korg Stygian Uh... you theoretically CAN read... I suggest you reread my post as you obviously missed the point... Oh wait. You merely RESTATED my point. Dude.. get a grip. I can read quite well thank you. I didn't restate your point, but merely demonstrated that you had none. As for grips, is there anything in particular I should be gripping? From: someone As for sowing seeds of suspicion.. I didn't sow any seeds. I stated a fact. Oh..what facts. I sure didn't see many in your post. But lots of opinions. And you know what they say about opinions... From: someone You think that what I am doing with alts is something other people are not doing? Think again. It's a virtual world... with virtual realities. /GASP! No way. Second Life is virtual and people use alts? Liar!! ;) From: someone What you think you know is all illusion and the people you think you know in this SL - unless you actually watch them type anything AND have met/know them in real life - are not necessarily the people you think they are. Well, since you have no idea what I think I know, then that statement is clearly misinformation and more rhetoric to make yourself sound wise and experienced. *yawns* Guess what, even if you DO meet them in RL, they still might not be the people you think they are. From: someone As for friends banding together --- there is getting together and there is "ganging up" to defend or attack. I see more of the latter here in SL than I have ever seen anywhere else at any time. Really? So ganging up would be sharing and expressing similar opinions? Or debunking opposing opinions? Not sure what would be the difference in your mind as to ganging up and sharing a viewpoint/opinion. Is there a handbook I can read? And if this is the worst ganging up you've ever seen, all I can say is you must not get out much, either on the internet or in RL. This is very typical of most forums, and actually friendlier than many. And politics and newscasts and general media tend to gang up worse, or at least gang up on more important matters. From: someone So.... go get some reading lessons, then some logic lessons, then return to your SL/RL whatever. Hehe..weak Korg...very very weak. You really should think about that vacation. P.S. And you using your alts to spy, as you imply, is sad and pitiful, but whatever floats your boat. (Poetic sentence eh?) _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Kats Kothari Disturbingly Cute Join date: 14 Aug 2003 Posts: 556 01-03-2005 14:10 From: Prokofy Neva ... We've already established that at least one lonely brave newbie was able to say out loud in this hostile smug and clubbish environment that yes, she isn't exactly happy to look out at a gorilla when she would rather see natural land. Go and read the thread about the big building in Clunn to see what I mean by big bad ugly obstructive and I no doubt you'll agree with me -- anyone would. ... Nobody would pressure a newbie or a creative person with a negrate. After finally reading the whole thread, I would also like to share my 2 cents worth. ;) In my personal opinion, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen many builds that could be considered eyesores and they don't bother me as long as the do not cause excessive lag, stream particles unto my land or cause any other annoyance to the sim or unto my land borders. I wouldn't mind seeing a King Kong on my neighbor's land (my tastes differ from that person who said that she wouldn't like to see it). I wouldn't neg rate a build I found "ugly" because I understand how other people (including the creator) could find it beautiful. In fact, I have seen many creations listed on the classifieds and seen people's comments on how beautiful it looks and I personally thought that it was "ugly". That's what individuality is about... we have different views/perspectives as to what beauty entails and we should respect each other's opinions (even if we don't agree with them). This is the same reason why I wouldn't/haven't neg-rated builds that I do not find beautiful and I understand how rating a new player's build negatively while they are experimenting and still learning how to build, could discourage them from learning and moving on to another enviroment. While learning how to build I lived in a giant Moogle, in a pink castle (which I personally wasn't too happy with, but I got many comments from players that found it cute), in a box-shape tower and many other builds that could be considered eyesores, but many players enjoyed them and so did I. One of my concerns with the statements made on this thread deal with what has been said about cliques, favoritism, etc. I acknowledge that there are certain players that stick together, but just because a player is a "newbie" or an "oldie" doesn't mean that they will choose to side with the older players or the newer players. There have been many arguments on the forums in which older players have disagreed on issues (many of them loathe each other), yet we still manage to move on regardless on who sided with who. I can understand how people's friendships can influence people's opinions, since we can judge a situation with how familiar we are with certain players (e.g. I am friends with Francis and if she were to get into an arguement/discussion with another player, I would most likely side with her, not only because of my friendship with her, but because I know what she is capable of). Even though many people have friendships and cliques, they aren't afraid to speak up if they disagree with said friends or cliques and/or if they believe that they are wrong (this has happened a lot in the forums). As for the situation that started this thread, maybe the best solution would be to agree to disagree and use the land tools that have been given to us (banning, muting, etc.) to avoid any further confrontation, if no "happy medium" can be reached. P.S. One final note, the SL Community is ever-changing and some people change their builds as often as they change their avatar's underwear, so there is no guarantee that you will always have a perfect sunset view or a beautiful mansion on your neighbor's land... sometimes we end up with pink castles for a view. ;) _____________________ Maker of many kawaii items: Dolls, huggable plushies, and purses with cute critters. Visit Kats' Kreatures for a better look and feel free to explore! =^_^= Kats' Kreatures Gualala (140,9) "The cat is cryptic, and close to strange things which men cannot see..." - H.P. Lovecraft Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 14:16 From: Prokofy Neva I don’t know if their bias is toward traditional liberalism or if their bias is to the faux-liberal, pedestrian pagan hedonism one finds in Internet games, but I do know that they are arch conservatives about letting go the hammerlock they have on SL, and they are willing to send posses out on the forums to hunt and hog-tie anyone who challenges them. You said the oldbies are threatened by the game’s growth and the clash of cultures and that’s exactly what I’ve raised in this and other threads and I am quite aware I’ll be pilloried for it. It's only as complicated as you make it, and Prokofy, in my opinion, you and Korg are reading into things far too much. I do appreciate that you do not try to demean people and actually debate, although you are very long winded at times and make me read so much! :) I guess I have to ask you if you understand that SL was once a MUCH smaller game with just a few hundred active players and a VERY tiny grid? It only stands to reason that there is a remnant of that old group still in place. Does that mean we control things and strongarm Linden Labs or other players? Not in my mind. The existence of this remnant is unavoidable due to the particular evolution of this online environment. Because you are unhappy about what your neighbors rightfully choose to build on their land and they don't want to honor your request to comply with your desires AND they happen to be oldbies does not mean that there is some ruling aristocracy of olbies conspiring to control the grid. Two of my neihgbors are newer players and I am not thrilled with have my ENTIRE view blocked by boxes, does that mean I can claim there is a conspiracy of newbies to make my life miserable? _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231 01-03-2005 14:26 Interesting points Korg, but I disagree with your central premise. You and prokofy both attribute certain traits of the SL community to some kind of old boy network. We can all agree on "effect" and what's concretely observable... that the community tends to slant towards being liberal and that there are things that have evolved over time to be seen as cultural norms within SL... but we disagree on the "cause." Your theory depends on things that aren't directly observable and are therefore assumptions. Unless you care to be specific about your alt adventures I'm going to discount your claims as a thin attempt to lend credence to your statements without having to qualify them. If people look at players who've been around for a long time as some sort of ego driven clique that shuns newer people then they're bestowing qualities that I don't believe are actually true in the sense that you imply (as in lording over the community). It's a skewed observation based on paranoid assumption. What you attribute to favoritism and exclusivity, I attribute to the limitations of my short term memory. I can only keep so many names in my head and it stands to reason that people who've been around a long time will have worked their way into my long term memory. If you ask me to name a builder, or a tattoo artist, or a scripter, I'm far more likely to pull out a name that I remember than one I don't. There are people who've been here a month or two that are on that list if they've made a strong impression on me. You're definitely on it Korg, hehe. I probably spend more time in world talking to new-ish people than I do interacting with other old timers and my respect for people isn't based on the length of time someone's been around. I can only speak for myself since I'm not a psychic but I imagine it's the same for most "old timers." As for the liberal slant, that's more logically attributed to the liberal slant common to the creative types that SL appeals to and not social pressure. If you polled everyone who's joined in the last month I bet they'd slant liberal so while your observations are legitimate, your assumptions about the causes are pretty flawed. I'm certainly not picking on Prokofy because he's new, or because I leap to the defense of anyone who's been here since Beta. I simply disagree with his point of view, and yours. If there's a consensus among older players about issues like this it's because they've always been issues and we've hashed them out dozens of times already. Don't confuse familiarity with collusion. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:27 From: David Valentino ..you using your alts to spy, as you imply, is sad and pitiful, but whatever floats your boat. You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours... Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on if you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it. You guys are paranoid. Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 14:27 From: Korg Stygian I made my points. You choose not to respond to THEM. As for "tongue in cheek nicknames".... umm.. have you considered mine? If not, do so now. I knew that you could. /120/d9/31559/4.html#post327991 I did. I only became mired in your BS once again when you started to become partisanally and pointedly abrasive yet again, after claiming earlier in this thread that you were on niether side. I see a difference in our nicknames to the extent that I don't really think I am a nincompoop and mine is really a play on the pic of Albert sticking his tongue out, you on the other hand seem to think you are curmudgeon, as per your dictionary's definition of course, a definition you failed to ever post suprisingly (or unsuprisingly) enough. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 14:36 From: Korg Stygian You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours... Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on it you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it. You guys are paranoid. We're paranoid, yet you utilize alts to study some imaginary collusive effort by groups and sub-groups? Right, got it. :rolleyes: _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit Ingrid Ingersoll Archived Join date: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 4,601 01-03-2005 14:37 From: Prokofy Neva I’ve never seen such a spoiled and feted inner-core technocratic/creative intelligentsia elite anywhere in my life except perhaps for the Soviet Union. I haven't been here that much longer than you have Prokofy, why am I not seeing this? I've met people who you would probably lump into the "fetid inner core" of SL and most often they have been friendly, helpful and all around nice. Some have even become friends of mine. I haven't been to one class ever, everything I learned, I learned from "oldbies" and Toast Bard who landed in SL two weeks before me. I don't get it. _____________________ http://www.ingrid.0catch.com/1.html Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:46 From: Chip Midnight ... Chip.. somewhat intersting points yet you do the same thing you accuse me of - argue based on assumptions. Reveal my alts or be discredited as simply attempting to bolster my own argument without evidence? Nice try but that's kinda faulty logic considering the reason some of us have alts is to act/react differently to the same things/people/situations. Thus, by revealing the alt, one defeats the purpose for having the alt in the first place. If I, as Korg, decide to gender-bend and wear a dress - that's one thing. To say that Korg is also "Joe Schmuckatelly avatar" is something different. You either accept that or you don't. As for oldbies having hashed the liberal philosphy and other things defining the SL community out time and again.... well, isn't that what we are talking about now? The discussion has been reopened and at least a couple of us disagree with the perspective of the "in group" however loose that group might be --- but self-identifying as "oldbies/charter members/whatever" does kinda set up and us/them dichotomy, doesn't it? Add to that the swarm defense in this thread and I think that Prokofy and I are more than justified in saying that a cliquishness DOES exist. Note that I never said that it was wrong, per se, to be cliquish. But that is the sense of numerous responses.... an apparent defense where, in my case at least, I did not attack that cliquishness, merely gave my perspective on it. If anyone feels attacked, I do not take credit for that. I am entitled ot my opinion and I have the right to express it. YMMV. As for spending time here(forum) or in-world talking with people, good for you. Guess what? I am completely different in-world as most people who know me there (except for one specific day) are likely to attest. But, that's not a defense of my actions here - merely a statement that perceptions of and experience with people varies based on the situation. In-world, some of the people I have the biggest problems with here are fine people.. but here a few seen to do as I do - only this time with the cliquishness of mob rule/reaction behind their screennames. As for the cheap psychoanalytic "paranoid" shot.... "I'm going to discount your claims as a thin attempt to lend credence to your statements without having to qualify them..." Pull out a DSM IV/V and then come back and justify it. Otherwise, it's just a hot air accusation, not even a poorly worded argument. That you operate from a different set of core assumptions about people makes your perspective no more valid than anyone else's. My opinion is no more skewed than your own - by your own argument. Agree with me or not... doesn't affect my game. Here in the forums, my "game" is definitely one thing and it's been misinterpreted by many. In-world, I wouldn't care to "come up against" this Korg either - but that's there and this is here. Real life? That's a third "game", one we will all eventually lose at. Beryl Greenacre Big Scaredy-Baby Join date: 24 Jun 2003 Posts: 1,312 01-03-2005 14:47 From: Ingrid Ingersoll I haven't been here that much longer than you have Prokofy, why am I not seeing this? I've met people who you would probably lump into the "fetid inner core" of SL and most often they have been friendly, helpful and all around nice... Heh, there's a big difference between a "feted" and a "fetid" inner core (no doubt I'd fall into the latter group...). :D And yes, there are cliques in SL. However, I think it's a grave overstatement to imply that all the oldbies are in some secret group that is out to demean, debase and de-... well, um, treat newbs crappy. It just ain't so. By the way, Ingrid... make more shoes, please! I love your high heels. :) _____________________ Swell Second Life: Menswear by Beryl Greenacre Miramare 105, 82/ Aqua 192, 112/ Image Reflections Design, Freedom 121, 121 Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:48 From: Nolan Nash I see a difference in our nicknames to the extent that I don't really think I am a nincompoop and mine is really a play on the pic of Albert sticking his tongue out, you on the other hand seem to think you are curmudgeon, as per your dictionary's definition of course, a definition you failed to ever post suprisingly (or unsuprisingly) enough. Did you even bother to read your own drivel before you posted that? Talk about circular argumentation! Damn you are good for a laugh tonight. You really are. I may not have time/the ability to watch Blazing Saddles like I had planned because I am laughing so hard. David Valentino Nicely Wicked Join date: 1 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,941 01-03-2005 14:52 From: Korg Stygian You and Nolan seem to have keyed in on this... so I will quote yours... Uh... spy? Hah. My "alts" predate me as Korg. My opinions of the groups and sub-groups and their respective actions/mini-cultures was pretty much developed prior to Korg ever coming into existence. Anyway, what would there be to spy on it you/they are all as honest as you seem to imply. You have nothing to hide, right? So what would I gain from spying, as you put it. You guys are paranoid. I dunno. You're the one that brought up your alts, so you tell me? What would you gain from it? _____________________ David Lamoreaux Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery Korg Stygian Curmudgeon Extraordinaire Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,105 01-03-2005 14:56 From: David Valentino I dunno. You're the one that brought up your alts, so you tell me? What would you gain from it? If you do not already understand or imagine why a person would like to play an alt, I cannot explain it to you. The best I can do is to ask, if your clothes did not get soiled by wearing them each day, would you continue to wear the same outfit or not? If not, why not? /me walks away shaking head in incredulity Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141 01-03-2005 15:02 From: Korg Stygian Did you even bother to read your own drivel before you posted that? Talk about circular argumentation! Damn you are good for a laugh tonight. You really are. I may not have time/the ability to watch Blazing Saddles like I had planned because I am laughing so hard. No, I don't read. I am blind and I just type. When one fails to convince someone that they are correct, what other path is there than to accuse them of not reading or being able to read ad infintum? I justify my abrasiveness due to my nickname and my RL experiences and age. I see conspiracy everywhere I look. I choose respond to "drivel" because it doesn't carry the "weight" of a "butterfly" and means nothing to me. I am inexplicably driven to irrational arguments claiming cronyism on most issues. People can't possibly be thinking and speaking for themselves. Because they happen to agree with each other, it has to be that they are all in on some grand scheme to subvert the interests of newer players. _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/120/d9/31559/6.html

"Community Organizing"

Bam railing against evil self-interested entities like banks and utilities in his commie community organizing-days.

One of the fakest and most illegitimate things on two legs in our real life -- and by extension, our simulated life -- is "community organizing". It rarely involves anything like a real, large authentic community; it usually only involves something small *calling itself* "thecommunity". It is usually artificially induced from outside by those "who know better" and have a decided agenda, often hidden; it is usually funded by small groups with political ideologies and goals that they seek to cover with "community organizing" to get themselves legitimacy. Oh sure, you do find authentic community organizers who are not these things. Usually, you don't find them among politically aggressive people in Chicago who become president of the USA lol.

Many people never focused on what this "community" stuff meant until Barack Obama began batting around the term in a bid to get elected. It's one of the many demagogic things he said to get elected -- and we can see it worked. I was one of those who elected him.

But that hardly means I'm going to be uncritical, and of course I cast a very weather eye on all his leftwing associations, which do indeed, unequivocally, include at least one former Weatherman undergound violent radical and at least one Communist Party member who were, respectively, an acquaintance and a mentor. The milieu that Barack moved in consisted unabashedly of lefties, and especially lefties of the old Chicago type, who include radical Islamists like Farrakhan and Obama's old preacher, whom he denounced, and various Communists and socialists and "progressives" who deny they are technocommies like Lawrence Lessig.

Never forgot Obama's first words upon appearing in public after his election: "Helloooooo Chicago!" And Hellooooo Chicago, with all its radicals, is what we will be seeing for the next 4 years (along with the rewarmed Hillary moderates seeking payback time) -- you are warned.

So the first question you have to ask about the "community" that Obama was "organizing" is as follows: who paid? A private foundation or NGO? A storefront funded with a city grant in the Daly machine? Who? And...what was the community" Himself and other urban intellectuals with an agenda? Poor people who got services who may have been dependent on these storefronts? Who? Who and what was organized?

And...what does it mean to be a "community organizer"? Generally, community organizing is an activity that socialists, trade-unions of the socialist bent, and communists have used for as long as these movements have been in existence. The formula usually consists of an intellectual, usually urban, usually non-working class, adapting an extremist ideology of the left, socialism or communism, or even a milder variant thereof, and going out to "organize the People". These "People" are usually idealized within these ideologies as "the masses" who "need" organizing or "the downtrodden" or "the workers" -- who have always been a special object of paternalist obsession by communists and socialists who -- with few exceptions -- rarely did actual hard manual work. (I can think of the delightful editor of New Politics, Julius Jacobson, a Schachtmanite, who fought in the war and also used to work in old fashioned hot-type printing, for example).

Not surprisingly, Hamlet nee Linden Au is touting the concept, and pointing to Saul Linsky. Oh, dear. A Chicago leftie, author of Rules for Radicals and coiner of the term "Think Globally, Act Locally," whom Hamlet credits with inventing the concept of community organizing, as does Wikipedia, but that's silly, as there have been community organizers as long as there have been communities. But give me a third-camp socialist like Jacobson over Linsky any day, especially when it comes to Second Life -- where we would likely have to repudiate both of them, to start with a concept more basic than communities, which is private property and land rights. Land rights, as even the Sandinistas can tell you, are essentially to "community organizing". Usually what community organizers want to do is get rich people OFF the land, and put poor people ON it even if they didn't pay for it. They want to "spread the wealth around" -- as our friend Obama does.

But...we already have that in Second Life. We already have a minority of land owners, with a vast majority of renters and accounts with no payment information on file, or even with information on file, who don't even own or rent but fly around using everybody else's land. The Sandinistas or even the Bolsheviks would have a very hard time getting anything done in SL -- it's already been done for them, and the system has already fast-forwarded to the oligarchic state capitalism that Julius would have railed against in particular, even if Saul was silent (and sure, surprise me with a statement of Saul's during his lifetime condemning the Soviet Union, I'd be glad to be educated). In fact, even the landowners use socialism on sims -- just as under socialism, any one of them can grab the FPS and CPUs of any sim and hog it all to themselves, with no repercussions; there really isn't any viable "private property". There is only absolutist propertarianism, leading to the strong victimizing the weak, a situation that commie organizers look at and say "How can I take the place of that strong power?" even as they pretend to say, "How can I help those victims?"

So when leftwing urban intellectuals set about "organizing the People" or "teh ppl" as we call them now online, what do they do? They go around preaching leftwing ideologies with the help of pamphlets by sectarians (or today, with Wikipedia entries and online viral memes in blogs) which basically say the rich are evil, capitalists are evil, government is evil, and it should all be overthrown -- and they, as enlightened ones, should be put in charge. They know best!

Of course...not so fast there, big guy, because if you overthrow government, you might overthrow the vast assortment of entitlement programs that a city like Chicago and its people in fact benefit from enormously, to the point that their city becomes a magnate for Poles or Nigerians who wish to escape the tyranny of their own country, where they overthrew the government and redistributed the wealth...well, at least to some people.

Magellan Siting in Himilco?

Plenty of parking!

I caught up with Magellan -- almost -- at a place in Nautilus called "The Palace".

"The Palace" doesn't look very palatial, by contrast especially with the Citadel. In fact, the Palace looks for all the world like a mall in Paramus, NJ with plenty of parking. Bring the kids! It's here in the sim Himilco, which is named after that chemical plant where our dads used to work in NJ, where they would tell us not to go outside after it rained because we might melt.

And that's just what endears the Moles and some of the Lindens to me, because while they may aspire to hazy greatness of a Better World In Which We Can All Be Connected, draping ourselves on Ionic columns and poplar-lined shady allees leading to ancient stone piazzas, in reality, they draw their inspiration from that sort of sturdy, suburban poured-concrete and neoprene that we've all grown up with in America, and from which we all have toxic levels of PCPs in our bloodstreams.

Someone like Barnesworth, now (I think he's Naughty Mole, or maybe not? Glamorous Mole?), while he aspires to the structures of the ancient Romans and Frank Llody Wright and Bali (where they have places with names like PhuqueYu that he can endlessly chortle about), in reality, in his day-to-day immersion in real life, he is more likely to have seen the boxy atriums of the food court at the Galleria.

The Meanness of the World, Part I

By Prokofy Neva, Virtualtor

This three-part series was originally published in July 2005.

Now that we're at the year-anniversary of the Herald's seminal interview with Philip Linden, CEO of Lidnen Lab it's a good a time as any to look at some of Philip's predictions -- and not just that infamous "million members" that we're still 968,000 away from LOL but some of his other fascinating points as he unfolds his vision of our world-that's-not-supposed-to-be-a-game.

Philip Linden: I have this theory... I think it will become very important very soon. Here goes...
Philip Linden: You can look at an online world, and ask how much freedom it gives you as a user. Sort of like the rat-in-a-cage analogy... How big is the cage? What is there to do? So when you look at historical online worlds... something like everquest, or even TSO... it seems quite obvious that in them you are far more restricted than in your waking life. There is a LOT less you can do there than in reality.
Urizenus Sklar: true
Philip Linden: So I believe this is a simple test for how basic and abusive and frustrated people will become in these worlds. The answer to the question "how much can I do?" tells us "how mean you will be."

If anybody wanted to know just how mean SL gets, they'd have to look no further than the infamous forums, which definitely belong to the "fuck you and die" school of boarding -- even now after they've banned what "Clickable Culture" calls the "Infamous Antagonist" (me) and all are um *cough* all one big happy family *cough*.

How mean does it get in-world? Do people really just stay on their tier-free 4096s or private islands, putting Happy Little Trees in the Corner? Making turning and twisting gadgets and widgets, dressing up as tiny furry creatures and visiting each other to spread Cheer and Joy, selling their wares like we used to sell them to Tom Nook in Animal Crossing?

Well...erm...you tell me. The niceness of a world isn't always judged by its griefing styles or even the absence of griefing. The LL Police Blotter, buried and unnoticed on the LL site only contains the last couple days -- and while I'm told it's syndicated on Live Journal, checking the link there I saw only 3 days there, too. And most of the entries like "Assault, Scripted Object, Sandbox" have absolutely no bearing on the lives of the majority of people in SL (in fact, the Sandbox Blotter, as it really should be called, is just a little blog on the fun kewl tekkie war of Lindens catching shooters on vehicles in the best sort of FPS game that SL can often muster, given the lag and physics problems).

But don't you know about the sophisticated forms of griefing that exist in SL? Oh, surely you do! Surely you've experienced them! I'll bet you have. A society is often judged by how kind it is to its old people, disabled, children, mentally ill -- and dissidents. So if you want to hear about how mean SL is, just come and talk to me, the Most Hated Eliminated Entity, in the eyes of some LOL.

Here's just some of the types of incidents I've endured -- but I'm not alone in suffering this type of harassment which either skirts the TOS or is utterly irrelevant to the TOS, ROC, CS, or anything the Lindens are willing to enforce:

1. Malicious officer recall in my land group, this time of an absentee officer who watchful eyes figured out was not logging on for awhile by looking at his last log-in date, helpfully provided in the group's membership list (there's no way to turn this off unless the entire group and its members are made secret which you can't do obviously in a public rentals agency). The workaround is to leave the group to stop the ridiculous "vote" that takes place to remove you as a "tyrant" or "abuser" ostensibly yourself -- but of course the abuse is AGAINST you given that you are the person paying not only the purchase price of the land but the tier.

In this particularly nasty version of "officer recall," if the officer can't be reached, then you'll sweat out the full 7 days the vote takes -- all the while unable to have anybody new join the group because in their wisdom, the makers of the group tools wanted to make sure that no officer that the group was attempting to ouster would pack meetings with new members he'd drawn in to his defense. Thanks! So now no tenants can join the group in order not only to set their prims to the group land and avoid prim sweeps, but also do the all-important "set home to here" you need for a rental, in order to avoid huge travel distances, especially in the new continent.

The toll for me during this rocky week was dozens of customers who were going to rent but then gave up before I could reach them to turn off autoreturn on their land -- they couldn't join and set their prims. This is really malicious economic harm. Because I have been burned by my now third officer recall, I've temporarily turned off my group open enrollment, something I always swore I'd never do. I have to do it until I get that officer to leave, however, and that means dozens of people are now able to join, but only after first reaching me to ask for an invitation. The lost time for me and the customers has been enormous.

What's the response of LL to the numerous and daily Abuse Reports filed by me and tenants greatly inconvenienced and even burned monetarily on this malicious griefing? Blue Linden helpfully told me, "Prokofy, you'll need to campaign to keep you officer's seat." Another recognized that it was a fake recall, but just returned the abuse reports with the standard messages -- really, what can be done under TOS rules that don't address this issue? None other than Philip Linden himself told me that he understood how officer recall had to be fixed, and was getting on it. However, from the questions he asked me about rental groups, I'm not 100 percent sure he "got it" about the devastating losses of officer recall.

I realize I'm using the groups in ways they were never intended, and in ways that the land barons even have never dared to use them. I'll press on doing this -- it's the way to help manage sims for groups of people willing to share tier, prims, views.

2. Aggressive signage.  Hateful, inciting, racist, homophobic, etc. signs are not allowed in SL. But advertising with a billboard *right* at the property line *is* allowed because it belongs to that hallowed SL tradition of doing WTF I wish on my property. One major land baron with a grudge against me put a sign RIGHT FLUSH at the margins of property he didn't own but evidently cooperated with another baron on, getting in the face of not only my own billboard for my rentals, but the sign of one of my tenant's over his store. There was no need for the baron's sign as his store, facing the telehub and inches away from it, already had all the exposure it needed without facing a sign into my boardwalk mall and my customers. No matter, it's SL! This festering problem finally ended when Anshe bought the property and said "Let's not have signs in the air, shall we?" and everything was taken down.

3. Misuse of Metadverse billboards. Another avowed enemy, the CEO of a major inworld company pissed off at various inworld disputes -- and the perpetrator of the first kind of griefing I've mentioned, officer recall, on an alt -- put a batch of Metadverse signs FLUSH against my property -- again with the same kind of malicious intent visible to all, since his building was way at the other edge of the property, and then finally even removed from his lot, though his signs stayed. The signs advertised not to traffic as it came to the area, but just faced into my mall. I AR'd it to LL, knowing it was futile. I tried calling Hamlet's attention to it -- sometimes even the house-organ press can take an interest in the issue of sophisticated griefing. Then I had a brainstorm. I AR'd to Metadverse itself. They instantly got it. They said they didn't like their signs being used in this aggressive fashion, and suspended that CEO's account and instantly removed the signs. Sometimes you wish independent companies instead of the federal government ran the world...but that's going to bring a world of its own difficulties of course.

4. Nasty comments in signs that aren't TOS violations. Yet another sign RIGHT FLUSH on the property couldn't really fall under any Linden TOS, and a Linden who came out to see it was rather skeptical about the whole thing, but a sign saying YOU ARE RUDE wasn't a pleasant thing for my tenants and their patrons to see. Coupled with an aggressive tree-waving, it constituted clear harassment -- but Lindens wrung their hands helplessly.

5. And that brings me to the other griefing method of choice -- aggressive tree-waving. Everyone knows what it is like to get one of those damn Governor Linden trees waving into your property from unsold land next door, you wish you could just shut those damn things off sometimes. Sometimes people deliberately plant at the edge of the property to make trees float into your home and business and annoy you. Though Lindens might respond to your plea to "do something" about a stranger's prims on your land you can't get off if they've placed the root prim somewhere else, trees are somehow "different". They won't remove them. So they wave in the Linden breeze...and you fume. There's little you can do about the nuisance that itself won't be an AR'able offense.

6. Prim attacks. I've seen tenants harassed by trial-account day-trippers with names like HugeHairy Pole, who bombard properties with little prim squares or various objects like giant cocks. I recently methodically removed something like 4000 flaming prims from something related to a mafia group in Winnipeg and Cayuga. That's one thing. That you can sometimes get a Linden to look at and even ban someone over.

But a tenant who moves in, clicks on your rental box, reads your agreement, asks you the usual innocent questions, begins to put out their stuff -- they can't be a griefer, can they? Or can they?

This last week one twisted soul and big fan and friend of Aimee Weber's moved into Cub and put out 1500 prims' worth of Aimee's celebrated bears (many of the FIC). On a land that holds only 234 prims in a group, this quickly blew the prims off the neighbouring lots, and then made it impossible for someone to rent a fresh lot where they thought after clicking the box they'd get their 234 prims worth. Nasty! Everybody goes off line, and you lose the customers. I took the case in good faith and removed *some* of the bears and urged the tenant to either pay for more prims or move to a bigger lot. The fact that she refunded out of there soon after may indicate it was a bear-attack with malice aforethought but it's the sort of thing you'll just never know -- and another few hours of vexation as you try to mop things up with the other tenants.

Well, I'll stop for now -- there's so much more -- strangers IM'ing to see if I'd like sex with them or with others of either sex; spending $1 over and over on some object or rental as a form of nuisance; sending TPs speciously; event griefing with heckling; fake newbie questions and time-wasters by skilled oldbies on alts; the list goes on and on.

Oh, it's just me, is it? Because I'm the Eliminated Entity? If you just got rid of me, you'd just get rid of all these forms of griefing...right?

The Meanness of the World, Part II