What It's Like Trying to Debate Europeans on NSA and Snowden

Here's Michael Anderson, one of my nemesises on Facebook, a documentary film-maker who covers Central Asia: "Michael has been the Central Asian correspondent for Denmark’s Radio (Danish equivalent of the BBC), covering events in the former Soviet Union since the late '80s. He has produced numerous documentaries for Al Jazeera English."

This is the kind of person I run into all the time in my region of work and study, Eurasia. People who seem to "get it" about the awful regimes of Central Asia and even Russia, but who Blame America First and completely distract from the real dynamics of history and politics in the region -- more related to Russia and China than the US -- and of course their own governments' complicity and/or indifference in the EU.

So here's the kind of debate you get with these kind of people steeped in anti-Americanism -- throw in a Canadian who lives in the region who can hate America and call critics like me "Nazis" but admire Guriyev -- go figure. And then you get a Kyrgyz exile who lives in America, who owes America gratitude, but who buys the anti-government line of Glenn Greenwald.

In the 1970s and 1980s, most of the Soviet emigres who came to this country shared its ideals and supported either Reagan (negotiate from a position of military strength with the Soviets) or Carter (emphasize human rights and be prepared to boycott over mass crimes like the invasion of Afghanistan). There were almost never cases of the sort of rabid anti-Americanism you get now from people who were formally supporters of US policy.

How to explain this? Well, for one, US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan just never got support, including from people like me. But at least I understood that the real problem in these regions was Iran, terrorists and the Taliban -- I didn't have the illusion that the deaths of people killed by *those* forces in these countries were "caused" by the presence of Americans. The hostile forces remain and keep killing even when we've left or are leaving. Who will they blame then? Will they finally have to face the facts?

I think there's another factor for Europeans, Canadians, and Eurasians -- they need a bonding factor, they need to belong, they want to feel themselves part of an edgy world elite that is not viewed as a client of any state. So anti-Americanism fulfills the role of binding them and giving them a hate target that instantly puts them on par with the established elites of the US and UK. It's a class marker, if you will, like ridiculing Palin or Wal-Mart.

I think for dissenters in Eurasia, it helps cover up the fact that they didn't challenge their own governments, but fled them. The dynamics are different these days. But I also blame indifferent and callous US government officials who don't concentrate on education of people whose education we pay for and whose refugee status we sponsor, and leave it to Marxists in universities or hostile NGOs. And of course the US silence on human rights violations in Central Asia for strategic reasons while they relied on them for the NDN supply route is something I've endlessly discussed on my blog Different Stans.

In any event, the results of these policies are stupid and ugly and now not easily undone.

Sometimes I think an efficient way to get these Blame American Firsters to stop whining and sneering is to cut off all their study and business visas for a time. Would that concentrate the mind wonderfully, that they couldn't come here and study and run businesses while they bash on Facebook? Of course, America will never do that because its values are for free speech and freedom of movement of people. But 90 days, would that work to reverse the trends? You rant about being spied on and you think (wrongly) America kills and tortures most people in the world (instead of Iran, Sudan, China, Russia, Pakistan, etc.). Maybe don't come here then? Would that help?

Of course if the US  State Department were to do this, it would lead to only MORE outrage and Blame America First. It wouldn't likely work.

So I think the only thing to be done then is to keep debating people like this when they turn up in your feed.

Michael Andersen

October 24 at 4:06pm ·

• People! Let’s not forget the NSA spying was initiated by the Bush-Rummy-Cheney bastards. And as soon as Obama came to power, he….

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    Chris Schuepp closed Guantanamo?

    October 24 at 4:23pm · Like · 2
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    Chris Schuepp ended a couple of wars?

    October 24 at 4:41pm · Like
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    Catherine Ann Fitzpatrick @Michael Andersen there you go again obsessing about America. Is it a placebo for all of politics everywhere for you? Spying is a legitimate activity in a world with hostile forces. I'm going to assume you don't want the Taliban and Al Qaeda to win. But of course, you minimize their harm and the threat they represent. It's too bad we've helped enable you to do that.

    October 24 at 8:11pm · Like
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    Arslan Jumaniyazov Catherine Ann Fitzpatrick,
    
    I'm really not sure of your point. As an observer, I see Michael regularly criticizing Uzbekistan state (he even has a documentary about andijan) and other central Asian dictators, Putin and other Russian politicians, Europe...See More

    Yesterday at 1:27am via mobile · Like · 1
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    Catherine Ann Fitzpatrick @Arslan Jumaniyazov 90% of the time when @Michael Anderson is "criticizing Uzbekistan," what he's actually doing is criticizing the US, which he holds responsible for all of Uzbekistan's ills. I'm as critical of the US on Uzbekistan and Uzbekistan itself as any of you, but I do point out his silly, infantile anti-American tilt that obscures the larger forces around Uzbekistan (Russia, China). Here's my critique of Michael's film: http://3dblogger.typepad.com/... The documentary bends over backward to Blame America First, which is ridiculous. The US risked its base over criticism and then got kicked out. As for his criticism of Putin, it comes far less than his regular obsessiveness with America -- which is typical of West Europeans and now we see it of course in people like you, who want to bond with West Europeans and feel a sense of belonging, which you get by bashing America, even though it's America institutions that likely paid for your NGO grants and educational fellowships and of course is providing your free Facebook now : ) There isn't "mass surveillance" against anybody. This is mass hysteria on the part of Greenwald and Snowden. There is legitimate surveillance of terrorists and other criminal suspects and lawful intelligence targets. Yes, that includes Germany, which snuggles close with the Kremlin and has a huge business presence in Russia and Central Asia. Why aren't you more concerned about THAT? I can see the main rationale in listening to Merkel's calls or anybody's is to see if she was losing to the social democrats and the communists -- the very freaks who were unconscionably willing to give the Sakharov Prize to Snowden, and who would have moved even more close to the Kremlin had they won and she lost. The US likes to get a heads up on things like that. Meanwhile, remain in your bubble oblivious to the far worse problem you have in the world: Russia.

    

    Michael Anderson's New Film: Who is to Blame for the Andijan Massacre? (Different Stans)

    3dblogger.typepad.com

    Dink! My i-phone is telling me it's Michael Anderson again, posting directly on ...See More

    Yesterday at 1:38am · Like · Remove Preview
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    Arslan Jumaniyazov Where do you see me trying to bond with west Europeans? I just pointed out that I do not see a correlation between a need to massively spy on western Europeans, or the Brazilians, or listening to Merkel's phone calls on the one hand, and fighting alqaeda on the other. I just don't see it. As for living "in the bubble," you do seem to assume too much about people you don't even know, don't you think?

    Yesterday at 1:51am via mobile · Like · 2
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    Michael Andersen Arslan Jumaniyazov, I agree very much with the points you are making, and thanks. Unfortunately, I am not sure that it is worth your time engaging too much in debate with this woman, sorry, as she will just keep repeating whatever she wants with no regard for facts, until the rest of us have fallen asleep/gone to bed.

    Yesterday at 2:07am · Edited · Like · 2
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    Catherine Ann Fitzpatrick @Arslan Juaniyazov you're chiming in right here, dear, and indeed you do live in the same bubble if you spout the same stuff. There is no proof that the US "massively spies" on anyone. These are tendentious claims made by radical activists who are bent on harming the US government's reputation as much as possible. The US spies on legitimate intelligence targets. That does include some European figures who are relevant to counterintelligence -- and you can't expect otherwise, given how your countries help the Russians. Say, your friend Snowden claimed his leaks were merely about reform of the US system or privacy issues, yet they involve turning allies against the US, now. Interesting that, eh? Again, I could see that listening into Merkel's phone calls *would* become likely because of Germany's proximity to the Kremlin. Russia is an enemy, and has always been so. It is not merely Al Qaeda one has to worry about when two refugees in the US from Dagestan appear to have had some help executing their jihad in Boston by the Russian FSB never telling the FBI what they knew about them. To cite only one of many ways in which Russia is an enemy.

    Yesterday at 4:58am · Edited · Like
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    Nuriddin Mahkamov Остап Бендер буданашро бори дигар Солиев Абдукахор исбот намуд. У мехохад ки президент опозитзия надошта бошад, аммо Президент хохони опозитсияи пуркуват аст, чунки ин пешрафти давлат аст. дар хакикат ман маколахои бисёр навиштам, максади он пешрафти ч...See More

    Yesterday at 5:19am · Like
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    Arslan Jumaniyazov Catherine,
    
    Saying "There is no proof that the US 'massively spies' on anyone" is the exact definition of living in a bubble. I do not need Snowden or Greenwald to state that the NSA spies massively on millions of Americans as well as non-Americans around the world. That functioning was built into the institution of the NSA from the very beginning. The US government has been a mass surveillance state since the time of Woodrow Wilson.
    
    Does the NSA spy on legitimate targets? Sure, it does. But to state that that's the only thing they do and assume that folks within the system do not abuse that awesome power at their disposal is simply naivete. Nay, it is ignorance of American history. Let's put Snowden aside and talk of historical evidences. As a student of US political and cultural history, I look at exactly that. If there is no massive spying, where do we get declassified documents about NSA spying on civil rights leaders in the '60s? Where do we get Nixon spying on his own cabinet members, including Kissinger and then Kissinger in return wiretapping Nixon's phone calls? (If they did that to each other, imagine how they targeted others) Where do we get FBI and NSA spying on members of Congress, journalists, dissidents? Where do we get documents showing how critics of corporate and state corruption were targeted for surveillance, harassment, and blackmail? The examples from the US history when government spying had absolutely nothing to do with foreign enemies is abundant. These are not figments of Snowden's imagination but historical facts and there is a large bulk of documentary evidence to prove them. I'll add just one as an example below.
    
    Mass surveillance was in place before there was Snowden. Now, the NSA's reach has just increased tremendously thanks to the advances in technology (the Internet, smartphones, cameras, etc.).
    
    http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB441/

    

    Disreputable if Not Outright Illegal: The National Security Agency versus Martin Luther King,...

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    Disreputable if Not Outright Illegal: The National Security Agency versus Martin Luther King, Muhammad Ali, Art Buchwald, Frank Church, et al.

    Yesterday at 7:23am · Like
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    Barrie Hebb I think Catherine Ann Fitzpatrick would make a great neo nazi. All of her argumentation above are the exact excuses people used to support Hitler and totalitarian regimes. We are better, let us rule the world and spy on who we want, everyone is a potential enemy - you do a great disservice to the people of the USA and the world. You are not an American. You are a fascist in my view. And I have no apology for being so blunt. You would gladly see my rights and freedoms tossed to the sidelines for your grandeur view of a USA that controls the world.

    14 hours ago · Like · 1
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    Catherine Ann Fitzpatrick @Arslan Jamaniyazov the NSA does not spy "massively" on Americans. It legitimately spies on legitimate intelligence/law enforcement targets. Why do you believe the propaganda from WikiLeaks and Snowden? Try to be more critical. If you can find some abuses of this power, by all means, *find some concrete cases*. But on one has come up with a single one. You are completely mixing up two different eras, and that's actually what you need to understand. When in the 1960s, COINTELPRO spied on activists against the Vietnam War, or figures like Martin Luther King, Jr., *we had proof, we had those cases*. This led to reforms by Sen. Church and his committee. Where is the PROOF and the CASE of the NSA spying on a congressman or journalist?! Trust me, if these adversarial journalists like Greenwald *had* such proof, they'd have long ago published it. But they don't, and they know that this is the weakness of their case. I debated the ACLU and EFF at NYU University and pointed this out, and they indeed concede: they don't have cases. All they have are sweeping generalization, which they think is sufficient to incite the mob. I don't. Finally, you show a curious obsession with America, too, Arslan. You never look at your homeland or Russia or China? Why is that? @Barrie Hebb you're just hysterical. Just because I don't believe mass hysteria and anarchist hackers and radical journalists about this issue doesn't mean I'm a "Nazi". You deprive the word "Nazi" of all meaning if you're going to apply it just to somebody who happens to lack religious belief in Glenn Greenwald! I haven't advocated for any body's rights and freedoms to be tossed anywhere. In fact, our rights and freedoms have been damaged by Snowden and co. as they have made a liberal democratic state under the rule of law dangerously vulnerable to very illiberal enemies like Al Qaeda and of course Russia. Imagine, if someone has a different point of view, suddenly they are "not an American" or "a fascist". This is insane. *This is why we can't let people like you come to power, you are Bolsheviks who will wildly take away people's freedoms.*

    13 hours ago · Like
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    Barrie Hebb No Catherine Ann Fitzpatrick, you are the ignorant person who has no idea what freedom is, what people died form, or what the real America is about. You are about excusing mass spying - and false threats to justify murdering, raping and pillaging poor people worldwide. You are a poor excuse for an adult. Once you are 18, sorry, you have no excuse. You are responsible for your thoughts, and your expressions. If you truly belive the rest of the world shlould be punished so harshly by brute US government force for "threates you mentioned above which don't exist, you belong in prison. You are a threat to global humanity. That is my belief based on what you wrote. You talk about threats - but your country has viciously attacked, murdered and raped people worlwide - meanwhile you talk about these terrorists who have never ever ever attacked the USA not even ONCE - yet you believe - and believe is the perfect word - that you have the sole right to puinish iwth murder those around the world. YOU AREA a DANGEROUS CRACKPOT - have you never been to scholol - travelled, read books, met with people who are non white - I would have a hard time believing so.

    4 hours ago · Like
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    Catherine Ann Fitzpatrick @Barrie Hebb you spend time in the former Soviet Union and YOU have no clue about the *tens of millions of people* massacred in the greatest crimes against humanity in history, in a name of an ideology you still share and make excuses for by distract...See More

    7 minutes ago · Like